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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-09-29

---Logopened Sat Sep 29 00:00:18 2012
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04:00<andythenorth>bonjour
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04:03<Rubidium>salut andy
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04:30<andythenorth>hmm
04:30<andythenorth>HEQS has 7 trams that refit to different lengths with cargo specific graphics
04:31<andythenorth>there are 5 body styles
04:31<andythenorth>and 3 lengths
04:31<andythenorth>@calc 7 * 5 * 3
04:31<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 105
04:31<andythenorth>@calc 105-98
04:31<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 7
04:31<andythenorth>to provide autorefit, I need to add 98 trams to the buy menu
04:32<andythenorth>does that sound worth writing generated code for?
04:32*andythenorth considers converting HEQS to nml + python generation
04:33<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like it needs some reduction first
04:33<andythenorth>could eliminate some body styles
04:33-!-FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
04:33<Eddi|zuHause>remind me again why exactly length refits and autorefit fail?
04:34<andythenorth>because player can set invalid orders
04:34<andythenorth>so it breaks the UI
04:34<andythenorth>which is unacceptable
04:34<Eddi|zuHause>how is the case for invalid orders?
04:34<andythenorth>player can set an order to refit from subtype 1 to subtype 2
04:35<andythenorth>but in the case of HEQS that's not permitted
04:35<andythenorth>as vehicles may not change length in stations
04:35<andythenorth>as that can cause asserts :P
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>so tell him he shouldn't do that?
04:35<andythenorth>how?
04:35<andythenorth>there's no UI for that
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>in the donotreadme?
04:36<Eddi|zuHause>in the additional purchase text: "refits to different lengths. autorefit cannot change length"
04:36<andythenorth>sounds like a source of bug reports to me :)
04:37<Eddi|zuHause>that would be a killer argument for _any_ feature ever...
04:38<andythenorth>ho
04:38<andythenorth>well lots of features don't have this problem :)
04:39<FLHerne>User idiocy should never be a case against cool features :P
04:39<FLHerne>Unless the set really is stupid...
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: like, be able to change newgrfs mid-game? :)
04:40*FLHerne has complained about UKRS2 refitting-one-way-but-not-the-other a couple of times now :-(
04:40<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Naturally
04:40*FLHerne re-enabled that one immediately :P
04:40<andythenorth>user idiocy?
04:41<FLHerne>Sometimes it works, if you're stupid enough not to ask whether what you're doing will break, that's your fault :P
04:41<andythenorth>this feature is equivalent to giving someone a gun that fires backwards instead of forwards
04:41<andythenorth>that's total bollocks
04:41<FLHerne>If it breaks anyway and you lose a few years of savegame, and you moan, about it, it's also your fault :P
04:42<@planetmaker>FLHerne, the problem is that even the most experienced users cannot tell what will happen unless they know the full code of all newgrfs involved
04:42<andythenorth>bye
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04:42<FLHerne>Obviously, unbreakable newgrfs would be better ;-)
04:43<@planetmaker>newgrfs aren't exactly broken. The way they can interact. Or with the game. And the only safe way thus is "don't change"
04:43<@planetmaker>or you need to remove newgrf features
04:43<FLHerne>planetmaker: Yes, but I can usually assume that (say) adding a straight roadset probably won't kill everything :P
04:43<@planetmaker>or implement sandboxes for newgrfs
04:43<FLHerne>Someday, it probably will. That's life :-(
04:43<@planetmaker>FLHerne, yes. But you cannot say whether a set is just that or does more
04:43<FLHerne>planetmaker: That would be neat :-)
04:44<@planetmaker>for instance it will easily also screw up prices
04:44<@planetmaker>which is not fatal, but well
04:44<FLHerne>Surely the game could be made to check what NewGRFs do?
04:44<@planetmaker>but could in the worst case also disable other newgrfs, if a 3rd is (not) present or so
04:44<@planetmaker>in principle yes. Practically that doesn't (yet?) exist
04:45<FLHerne>planetmaker: Since when have people written simple newgrfs that interfere with other ones to that extent? :P
04:46<FLHerne>Also, why is it scenario_developer that enables it?
04:46<@planetmaker>FLHerne, they do that. For as long as I can think back in TTD terms
04:46<FLHerne>Surely the number of broken scenarios would suggest that making scenarios with newgrf-swapping is a bad plan? :P
04:46<FLHerne>planetmaker: Which ones?
04:46<@planetmaker>FLHerne, if you create a scenario, spent hours of work on the map and then realize that you miss the one and only landscape / vehicle / whatever set
04:47*FLHerne should probably avoid those :P
04:47<FLHerne>Add newgrf-agnostic scenarios then :P
04:47<@planetmaker>that's being planned
04:47<FLHerne>I saw ;-)
04:47<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NewGRF_Configuration_in_Utopia
04:47<FLHerne>Industries might be tricky :-)
04:47<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Terkhen/Scenario_format
04:48<@planetmaker>for instance, they're difficult
04:48<@planetmaker>and they're likely to break. E.g. you have FIRS. You add another industry set. FIRS disables itself. Map is broken due to suddenly missing FIRS
04:48<@planetmaker>common scenario when changing NewGRFs :-)
04:49<FLHerne>planetmaker: I meant for newgrf-independent scenarios ;-)
04:49<FLHerne>Removing them ingame would never make sense :P
04:49<@planetmaker>I know... I was still answering your previous question for an example
04:50<FLHerne>Mmmph
04:50*FLHerne wanders off to do other things
04:50<FLHerne>Bye :-)
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04:54<Wolf01>moin
04:54<@planetmaker>FLHerne, just to be sure: "we" like the option just as well, to change the things which go. There simply is not (yet) a way to know the impact
04:54<FLHerne>True.
04:55*FLHerne *really* wanders off to do other things :D
04:55<@planetmaker>e.g. a sandbox could be implemented to check the changes and only allow them, if non of the game objects changes properties
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04:56<Wolf01>q: it would be difficult to enable multi touch support on OTTD?
04:57<@planetmaker>a: depends on the definiton of "multi touch". And probably the platform you talk about. In principle it's not a game changer and just needs expanding some input drivers
04:57<@planetmaker>Thus it's a relative uninvasive thing, I recon
04:58<Wolf01>2 touches should be enough, I've evil plans about it
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>lots of reading library documentation involved, i presume
04:59<Eddi|zuHause>you need 4 touches if you want to simulate right-click and ctrl
05:01<Wolf01>not if I put ctrl on a toolbar and make it toggleable
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05:02<LordAro>mornings all
05:02<Wolf01>hi LordAro
05:02<Eddi|zuHause>do we even have special meaning for ctrl+right-click?
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05:04<@planetmaker>Wolf01, putting ctrl on the toolbar is... surely better than not having access to it at all. But still a bad user experience imho (I use ctrl all the time)
05:06<Rubidium>oh come one... every decent device with touch screen has at least one button
05:07<Zuu>no idea about iPhone, but on Android you could use eg. the volume buttons for doing things in an application.
05:07<Rubidium>and it might not even be detrimental to the playability of OpenTTD on the devices
05:07<Wolf01>yeah, I have 4, the on screen keyboard one, volume up-down and alt-tab/win-L, but the only one very accessible is the alt tab one
05:07<Rubidium>i.e. turning off the device doesn't hurt playability that much ;)
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05:22<Wolf01>hello Alberth
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05:22<@Alberth>hello :)
05:23<@planetmaker>hi Alberth
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06:04<deXM96>I have zbase baseset enabled
06:04<deXM96>I see nice graphics in the title screen
06:04<deXM96>but in-game I only see nice graphics in buildings, etc
06:04<deXM96>but the landscape is still the old graphics set
06:05<deXM96>what could be the problem?
06:05<deXM96>(openttd 1.2.2)
06:05<Rubidium>what NewGRFs do you use?
06:05<deXM96>some opengfx+ stuff only
06:05<deXM96>should I disable them?
06:06<Rubidium>probably since they 'overwrite' the 32bpp graphics from zbase
06:06<deXM96>ok, let's try
06:06<deXM96>nope
06:07<deXM96>disabled all newgrfs
06:07<Rubidium>and then started a new game? Or did you load a savegame?
06:07<deXM96>loaded a save, I just noticed that they're still enabled
06:07<deXM96>gotta try again
06:07<@planetmaker>in order to get most 32bpp, you currently probably want zBase ogfx+trains and maybe egrvts2. All in their nightly versions
06:08<@planetmaker>and all in a new game only. you can't undo that in existing savegames
06:08<Rubidium>when you load a savegame the NewGRF configuration from the savegame is used, not the one you configure in the intro window (for new games)
06:08<deXM96>ach much better
06:08<deXM96>damnit just started a new game and got an excellent map
06:08<deXM96>now I gotta start a new one
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>you can export the map as heightmap, and start a new game with that
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>(will have different town and industry positions, though)
06:11<deXM96>planetmaker: can I get ogfx+trains and egrvts2 from the content download or get them manually?
06:11*Alberth is tempted to answer 'yes'
06:11<Zuu>ogfx+trains is at bananas. Unsure about egrvts2.
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>not the development version
06:12<deXM96>there's eGVRTS 1.0
06:12<@planetmaker>deXM96, non of the required versions for 32bpp support is on bananas
06:12<Zuu>Though, there is probably a ogfx+trains nightly version that is newer than the version on bananas.
06:12<deXM96>that's not what I want, is it
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>just the previous release, which does not have 32bpp yet
06:12<@planetmaker>also the ogfx+trains with 32bpp is not there yet
06:12<deXM96>ok
06:12<@Alberth>just download the nightly, for a bleeding edge experience :)
06:12<@planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/ogfx-trains/nightlies/
06:12<deXM96>bleeding edge is where I wanna be :)
06:13<@planetmaker>just make sure to never "cleanup" your newgrf list ;-)
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06:15<deXM96>can someone find me a link to eGVRTS2?
06:15<andythenorth>I will sing a happy song if this gets added to trunk:
06:15<andythenorth>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5271?string=&project=1&type%5B0%5D=&sev%5B0%5D=&pri%5B0%5D=&due%5B0%5D=&reported%5B0%5D=&cat%5B0%5D=&status%5B0%5D=open&percent%5B0%5D=&opened=eddi&dev=&closed=&duedatefrom=&duedateto=&changedfrom=&changedto=&openedfrom=&openedto=&closedfrom=&closedto=
06:16<andythenorth>because this looks a bit odd http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3233/FISH_2_buy_menu.png
06:18<@planetmaker>I wonder whether OpenTTD should behave differently, if I send a train to a new station with "autorefit and load available". Currently most likely the train will not load anything
06:19<deXM96>planetmaker: that annoys the hell out of me too
06:19<deXM96>trying to get eg. steel from one place, drop it off at a factory and pick up goods
06:20<deXM96>ends up in empty trains
06:20<@planetmaker>yes. Unless you send it to each station to specifically pick up each cargo once
06:20<andythenorth>autorefit (awesome idea) has issues :|
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you mean like add "demand" for any autorefitable cargo?
06:21<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, maybe. I really wonder what the right thing would be to do
06:21<@planetmaker>I know occasions where that would be unwanted, too
06:22<andythenorth>did we discover what the enormous bug was with autorefit?
06:22<andythenorth>we played an MP nightly game where it just didn't work
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>autorefit is just a poor replacement for shunting :)
06:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I am concluding same :)
06:24<andythenorth>it's a nice idea though
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06:27<@planetmaker>Nah, I think autorefit is great. It's also not fundamentally wrong in any way. But it's complicated in some regards
06:28<andythenorth>it's not helpful that newgrf can choose to allow / disallow the refit
06:28<andythenorth>according to arbitrary conditions
06:28<andythenorth>if the cargo is a valid cargo, the vehicle should allow it
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06:37<andythenorth>that also rules out vehicles significantly changing graphics per cargo type
06:37<andythenorth>and refits with subtypes
06:41<@planetmaker>hm, yes. Maybe that'd be great
06:41*Jake starts pondering how shunting might work in-game.
06:42<Jake>I need to stop having these ideas when I know nothing whatsoever about coding...
06:42<@planetmaker>Jake, add a newgrf flag which says "I can be used in shunting operation", add vehicles graphically not reversion when all vehicles in the consist fulfill that condition. done
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>Jules Verne didn't know anything whatsoever about rocket science or submarine propulsion either
06:44<andythenorth>planetmaker: I keep looking for an extra property that lets 'body type' be specified for a vehicle :P
06:44<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you mean... composing vehicles of chassais and cargo sprite(s)?
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what's different to "subtype" then, if it changes on refits only?
06:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it wouldn't change with cargo refit
06:45<andythenorth>there would have to be another gui
06:45<andythenorth>I think it's a wrong approach tbh
06:45<andythenorth>rv-wagons is just simpler
06:45<andythenorth>as is "don't bother with complicated ideas like regearing" etc
06:46<andythenorth>using subtypes for liveries might be sane, but I think another GUI for that *is* valid :P
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>it sure is valid, just don't try to cram everything in one GRF
06:48<andythenorth>?
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>i meant the "regearing" thing etc.
06:48<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: (new topic) what is needed to get your buy menu patch included?
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: a dev that commits it?
06:49<andythenorth>:|
06:59<@Terkhen>hello
07:00<andythenorth>lo Terkhen
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07:14<Sahtor>Hey everyone. I posted a new thread in scenario forum. I think it got stuck in spam filter
07:15<@Terkhen>hi Sahtor
07:19<Sahtor>hi Terkhen. I'll wait here and repost if it got lost completely
07:20<andythenorth>there is no spam filter afaik
07:20<Sahtor>some pre-moderation was my guess. I dont read forum notices usually :)
07:23<@Terkhen>Sahtor: I'm sorry but I'm not a moderator at the forums, I can't help you with this
07:24<@Terkhen>but to my knowledge there is no such spam filter
07:24<Sahtor>ok
07:24<Rubidium>actually there is a spam filter on the forum
07:24<Rubidium>everything deemed suspect needs moderation
07:25<Rubidium>however, I think nobody in here except orudge has moderation rights on that subforum
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07:58<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24560 trunk/src/lang/czech.txt (2012-09-28 17:45:09 UTC)
07:58<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
07:58<@DorpsGek>czech - 9 changes by Eskymak
07:59<@planetmaker>\o/ DorpsGek
07:59<TrueBrain>also made it reports in #openttd.dev
07:59<TrueBrain>might be useful
08:00<@Terkhen>:)
08:00<@planetmaker>yup. Might leave .notice then ;-) Too many channels anyway
08:00<TrueBrain>hehe
08:00<TrueBrain>4 channels get a report on a commit now, so yeah :P
08:00<@planetmaker>seeing it in three is enough ;-)
08:01<TrueBrain>2 too many if you ask me :P
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08:03<@Alberth>+1
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08:24<@Terkhen>I agree :P
08:26*LordAro currently has 5
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08:28<@Alberth>5 channels with openttd commit messages ???
08:29<@planetmaker>Probably I have too many channels open... ;-)
08:30<LordAro>no, just 5 channels ;)
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09:38<LordAro>TrueBrain/DorpsGek/whoever: so have we finally got the CIA off our backs? :)
09:38<@Alberth>nah, they are just hiding better
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09:45<TrueBrain>LordAro: check their website
09:45<TrueBrain>what was it .. cia.vc or something?
09:45<TrueBrain>you never have to worry about the CIA ever again :D
09:45<LordAro>yay :)
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09:49<@Terkhen>what was CIA supposed to do besides announcing commits?
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09:53<KnogleAFK>Watch illegal activities?
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10:02<Elukka>regime change?
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10:11<Eddi|zuHause>The Bot is dead, long live The Bot!
10:16<Zuu>Time to play the swedish pop song about a bot? :-p
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10:18<andythenorth>if cargo subtypes were refitted in a separate menu, would that solve the issue?
10:19<andythenorth>the new menu would be available for depot refits only, not in station orders
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>that won't work, as subtypes depend on the cargo.
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>when changing cargo, you must be able to change subtype as well.
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: the bad thing is, i probably have that song in my collection somewhere
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10:24<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it would be a two step gui (imagine two panes, side by side)
10:24<andythenorth>choose cargo -> choose subtype
10:24<andythenorth>would make the refit menu more usable too
10:25<andythenorth>by reducing the insane number of choices
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that was proposed previously
10:25<andythenorth>using AV8 with FIRS, a plane has 124 refits :P
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what i mean is: it doesn't make sense to make this "depot only"
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10:28<andythenorth>because...?
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: because subtype MUST change when changing cargo, so you would effectively forbid refitting at stations
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the new subtype may have the same name or number, but they have no correlation
10:29<andythenorth>yup ok
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, gtg
10:29<andythenorth>I'm running out of ideas for solutions :D
10:30<andythenorth>bye Eddi|zuHause
10:33<__ln__>http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/09/29/0130230/newly-spotted-comet-may-shine-among-brightest-in-history
10:34<Elukka>yes please
10:35<Elukka>i was five when hale-bopp appeared
10:35<Elukka>i still remember it though
10:35<Elukka>a bewildering amount of people older than me don't
10:35<andythenorth>I was 18
10:35<Elukka>i guess they never look up
10:37<Rubidium>Zuu: but wasn't Anna a policing bot? Instead of just an announcing bot?
10:37<Zuu>It was a bot that ban people so yea.
10:38<Elukka>there's like a second moon that's blue and has a tail! how do people not notice
10:38<Rubidium>god's opaque sky filter
11:01<andythenorth>god's opaque brain filter :P
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12:40<andythenorth>quiet eh?
12:41<LordAro>indeed
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12:43<LordAro>what you up to?
12:43<andythenorth>contemplating napping
12:43<andythenorth>which won't be possible
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12:47*andythenorth has been tweaking FISH 2
12:47<andythenorth>but is a bit blocked by the SETX sadness
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13:20<Zuu>Oh shiny, the oil rig used in the lorry tutorial just closed down. :-p
13:20<Zuu>I guess it should use a NewGRF to stop industries from closing down. :-)
13:20<Zuu>But that requires re-making the scenario :-(
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13:21<andythenorth>speak to your new friend Terkhen about scenario format :)
13:21<Zuu>A work-around cold be to give the GS a rich uncle and re-build closed down industries.
13:34<LordAro>Or dynamic industry selection ;)
13:37<andythenorth>2300 pax enough for a ferry?
13:38<LordAro>just about... ;)
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24561 trunk/src/lang/estonian.txt (2012-09-29 17:45:09 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>estonian - 3 changes by Jaanus
13:48<Zuu>LordAro: The TutorialAI was totally dynamic, but that have the risk of failing in some cases. For that reason people have suggested that the GS Tutorial should use a pre-designed scenario. Something I've come to agree with even if its cool with a tutorial that can work on any map.
13:50<Zuu>Hmm, now I need to publish a new SuperLib version in order to publish a new Tutorial version and could then also publish a new CluelessPlus that make use of a few fixes in SuperLib. :-)
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14:56<andythenorth>ach
14:56<FLHerne>andythenorth: Hoyo
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14:57<andythenorth>the appearance of the buy menu is not that important anyway ;P
14:57<FLHerne>What needs 'fixing' prior to FISH 2 release?
14:57<andythenorth>buy menu
14:57<andythenorth>but meh
14:57*FLHerne needs to stop dropping into IRC conversations at stupid times
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15:05<@Alberth>the big problem is to decide when it is not a stupid time :p
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15:24<andythenorth>we could write a bot to help with that
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15:38<@Alberth>while true: print "now is a stupid time"; end
15:39<@Alberth>it might give false positives :p
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15:55<Zuu>Phew, enough releases for now. :-)
16:10<@Alberth>your tutorial has too many strings :p
16:15<@Alberth>Zuu: what's the oldest stable release newer than r23837 ?
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16:16<Zuu>Too many strings as in being a problem for OpenTTD?
16:16<@Alberth>no, too many strings as a problem for me translating them :)
16:17<Zuu>Ah, yea, I wouldn't fancy trying to translate it :-)
16:17<@Alberth>I do it anyway :)
16:18-!-Wold [~Wold@93-152-170-93.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #openttd
16:18<@Alberth>but an hour later I am only at line 33 of 158 :)
16:19<@Alberth>so I am not going to finish it today :p
16:19<Zuu>heh yea, I would guess it will take some time to translate it.
16:20<@Alberth>well, I also change the English strings a bit here and there, so it takes a little bit more time.
16:21<@Alberth>which is why I asked about the stable release
16:21<Zuu>Is r23837 the introduction of Game Scirpts?
16:21<Zuu>Scripts*
16:22<@Alberth>STR_ERROR_OLD_OPENTTD :Your OpenTTD version is too old to run the tutorial.{}{}The minimum required version is r23837. <-- you wrote it, I was hoping you'd know that :p
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16:23<@Alberth>I was thinking to add a number of stable release as well
16:23<Zuu>It should work with 1.2.x
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16:23<@Alberth>ok, thanks
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16:23<Zuu>I would have to look up exactly what r23837 does, but I guess its a change relativly close after the introduction of GS in trunk.
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16:26<@Alberth>@commit 23837
16:26<@DorpsGek>Alberth: Commit by rubidium :: r23837 /trunk/src (3 files in 3 dirs) (2012-01-22 17:42:03 UTC)
16:26<@DorpsGek>Alberth: -Feature [FS#4994]: [NoGo] Allow querying orders of vehicles
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16:45<FLHerne>@ports
16:45<@DorpsGek>FLHerne: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
16:46-!-Sahtor [~sahtor@metakka.lnet.fi] has quit [Quit: Sahtor]
16:53<FLHerne>Is this a useful place to ask about port-forwarding?
16:53*FLHerne is a bit stumped :-(
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16:56<@Alberth>other than the question whether you need port-forwarding? not really :)
16:57<@Alberth>each router/modem/firewall has its own way of configuring, there are no general recipes that work everywhere
16:58<@Alberth>btw you only need it (in general) when serving MP games, most firewalls are configured to let all outbound traffic through
17:00<FLHerne>Well, all the routers seem to be set up right
17:00<FLHerne>I can replace the modem with another computer, and connect to the server
17:00<FLHerne>But it still doesn't work when I plug it in :-(
17:01<FLHerne>I checked my ISP's site, they claim not to block those ports...
17:03<@Alberth>you know most modems also have a firewall built in, right?
17:04<FLHerne>Poked mine, claims to have the next router set as outside the firewall
17:04<FLHerne>Oh, it turns up on the server list now, that's progress
17:04<FLHerne>Dunno what I changed :P
17:05<+glx>you try to connect from same network ?
17:06<FLHerne>Still dunno what changed, but it claims to be open now :-) . Sorry to bother you... :P
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17:06<+glx>some routers don't allow computer from inside to connect via the outside address
17:11<FLHerne>Well, it seems to work now :-) Template-replace seems to be entirely MP-incompatible though :-(
17:13<FLHerne>Anyone want to play a CDist match?
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17:51<@Terkhen>good night
17:52<FLHerne>Terkhen: Night :-)
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18:05<Zuu>Hmm, there appear to be no advanced setting to turn of aircraft range.. and Av8 have no parameter for that. I guess I should soon add aircraft range awareness to CluelessPlus then.
18:06<Zuu>Now it throws away lots of money on constructing airports that it then removes because there is no aircraft to use it.
18:06<Zuu>Or rather because the aircraft it picks is unable to use it.
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18:19<Devedse>Hey guys, I was wondering why the maximum size of a map isn't editable in the openttd.cfg? Isn't it just based on increasing an integer?
18:20<Rubidium>how did you determine it isn't editable in the config file?
18:21<Devedse>reading the wiki :)
18:21<Devedse>it says the max is 2048x2048
18:22<Rubidium>oh, max in that way
18:22<Devedse>yeah
18:22<Rubidium>there are some issues with overflows
18:23<FLHerne>There's a patch for that, right?
18:23<Rubidium>if I remember correctly and nothing has changed since
18:23<Devedse>Are there any plans to add that in a future version? Or will you just keep it at the patch?
18:24<Devedse>also, is it possible to modify such things through newgrf?
18:25<Rubidium>FLHerne: yes, similarly there is a patch that changes the NewGRF limit... however at least one instance of it asserts in MP if you use too much NewGRFs
18:25<Rubidium>Devedse: no and no
18:26<Devedse>(just out of interest) why? :)
18:26<FLHerne>The only time I ever ran out of RAM on this computer was with that patch :P
18:26<Rubidium>FLHerne: the other instances disable the 'feature' of more NewGRFs in MP; I wonder what happens when you load a savegame with too many NewGRFs
18:26*FLHerne doesn't use it any more, but does still have MHL :-)
18:27<FLHerne>Rubidium: Surely it should be able to neatly fail? :P
18:27<Rubidium>Devedse: because I haven't seen a fully developed 2048x2048 map that's still smooth running
18:27<+glx>2048x2048 is just too big
18:27<FLHerne>Haven't tried (or needed) a newgrf-increasing patch though
18:27<Devedse>ah
18:27<Devedse>If you add "much" trains to a 2048 map will it start lagging?
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18:28<+glx>just add few boats
18:28<Rubidium>even at 512x512 people seem to have such problems
18:28<FLHerne>Devedse: Depends on your computer, but mostly yes at some point :P
18:28-!-KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:30<Devedse>:)
18:30<Devedse>I haven't had much problems yet but then again, I haven't had more then 200 trains on 1 map
18:30<Rubidium>so why do you need a map larger than 2048x2048?
18:31<Devedse>I just like to create long and big train networks
18:31<Rubidium>for 200 trains?
18:31<Devedse>yes
18:31<+glx>try 2048x64 then :)
18:31<Devedse>:P
18:32<Devedse>I wonder what cpu the world runs on, even with 100's of thousands of trains I notice barely no lag :o
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18:32<Devedse>barely any*
18:33<Rubidium>it doesn't use OpenTTD's model
18:33<Devedse>ah
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18:34<+glx>lag depends on countries ;)
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18:35<Devedse>:P
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18:36<Wolf01>'night all
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18:38<Devedse>lol, i started a server a few days ago and connected 2 city's with a few busses
18:39<Devedse>they are 200k population both now
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18:43<Devedse>how big can a 2048x2048 save file get (just a guess)
18:45<Kylie>Devedse: you may want to use trams in the future
18:45<Devedse>Kylie, what do you mean?
18:45<+glx>37M uncompressed for map only
18:45<Kylie>Devedse: also, a few buses are not enough. station rating may be low
18:46<+glx>then add towns, vehicles and other objects
18:46<Devedse>I've never used trams yet, are they in the "vanilla" openttd or do you need newgrf for it
18:47<Kylie>well Devedse if 2 cities which are now 200,000 expanded due to your transit addition, then 30 people each bus will never be ssatisfied unless you add more and more vehicles
18:47<Kylie>Devedse: newgrf. if you dont have it, then you'll have to use rail
18:47<Devedse>I know, but it was just to make some profit before I would really start playing
18:48<Kylie>Devedse: oih good
18:48<Devedse>I just started up a server which I would let run 24/7 so me and my friends can play on it
18:50<Devedse>What is a nice tram set to play around with?
18:53<Kylie>Devedse: well you c3ant add newgrfs when in game
18:53<Devedse>I know
18:53<Devedse>But just to try it out in a single player game
18:54<Kylie>and uh, i like the german one, i forget the name
18:55<FLHerne>I quite like BATS and HEQS (the latter has freight trams only)
19:03<Devedse>Does anyone remember the key you had to press to clone a vehicle?
19:04<Devedse>nvm found it
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19:26<Devedse>Is it normal that you can't upgrade a bridge from a normal road vehicle bridge to a road/tram bridge unless you select another type of bridge?
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20:27<Zuu>Hmm, this quote thingy for filters make it impossible to filter on things like "can't"
20:27<Zuu>it's .. etc.
20:28<Zuu>Perhaps it should only use double quotes.
20:34<@planetmaker>Zuu, things like sed or gdl and idl use a scheme where the first quote is the quote character an then the other can be quoted (" and ')
20:35<@planetmaker>of course that doesn't make any patch easier ;-)
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21:01<dada_>anyone know if there's a shortcut key for keeping the "go to" command active even after you click on a station? for faster order adding?
21:03<Supercheese>yes, that's an advanced setting
21:03<Supercheese>"enable quick creation of vehicle orders"
21:03<dada_>ohh neat
21:04<dada_>thanks, this is perfect
21:04<Supercheese>yer welcome :)
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23:04<supermop>hi
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 30 00:00:23 2012