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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-09-30

---Logopened Sun Sep 30 00:00:23 2012
00:37-!-hmmwhatsthisdo [~hmmwhatst@h75-100-224-83.lactwa.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #openttd
00:37<hmmwhatsthisdo>I'm having a problem where my trains (filled with coal) aren't unloading at a power plant. Is there something that could be causing this?
00:38<Supercheese>Does the station accept coal?
00:38<hmmwhatsthisdo>Yes.
00:38<hmmwhatsthisdo>It only seems to be a certain portion of the trains
00:38<hmmwhatsthisdo>(which are using shared orders)
00:38<Supercheese>Are all the wagons filled with coal?
00:38<hmmwhatsthisdo>Yup.
00:39<Supercheese>oh nevermind
00:39<Supercheese>didn't interpret that right :P
00:39<Supercheese>let's see
00:39<hmmwhatsthisdo>It's on a 7x7 station with platforms linked by "smart" signals
00:39<Supercheese>all the same station though, right?
00:39<hmmwhatsthisdo>the train slows down, stops, then starts right back up again
00:39<hmmwhatsthisdo>yup
00:40<hmmwhatsthisdo>They're also all set to "unload all" at that station
00:40<Supercheese>try changing to "unload if accepted"
00:40<Supercheese>rather than unload all
00:40<Supercheese>(just "unclick" unload all)
00:42<hmmwhatsthisdo>It seems like it might be it's overriding the orders to unload at the station with orders to go for maintenance
00:42<hmmwhatsthisdo>...depots aren't supposed to be put after stations are they?
00:42<Supercheese>I don't use maintenance orders myself
00:42<Supercheese>I have breakdowns disabled
00:42<hmmwhatsthisdo>isn't that cheating?
00:42<Supercheese>You could do it in regular TTD, so... no?
00:42<hmmwhatsthisdo>TIL something.
00:46<hmmwhatsthisdo>mmk, it does appear that they were skipping the station because they were breaking down in it or before it, then going in for maintenance
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01:25<Supercheese>Hey andy, joining with WSF set I see, no?
01:26<Supercheese>or at least receiving sprites
01:30<andythenorth>yup
01:30<Supercheese>:D
01:40<andythenorth>FISH 2 Alpha updated on bananas
01:40<supermop>fish 2?
01:41-!-Thibit [~Thibi@50-39-251-253.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #openttd
01:43<Supercheese>only the best ship set in OTTD by a large margin :)
01:43<Supercheese>(IMNSHO)
01:43<supermop>i didn't know there was a 2
01:43<Supercheese>you need a (very) recent nightly to download it
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02:58<Supercheese>good night
02:59<Supercheese>Tomorrow, T-minus 20 seconds
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04:08<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:20<Wolf01>mornink
04:24<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
04:24<andythenorth>Wold:
04:24<andythenorth>oops :P
04:24<andythenorth>hi Wolf01 :)
04:26<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01 :)
04:26<@Terkhen>and andythenorth :P
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04:45<andythenorth>lo Alberth and Zuu
04:45<@Alberth>moin andy and Zuu :)
04:45<andythenorth>Terkhen: are you working on new scenario format? o_O
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04:51<LordAro>moin Zuu, Alberth and andy :)
04:56<andythenorth>Zuu: Alberth Terkhen et al would you play MP game script later?
04:56<andythenorth>test new FISH etc
04:57*andythenorth will bbl
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05:16<@planetmaker>moin
05:16<@planetmaker>Alberth, LongVehicles was written by george. He's still around
05:17<@Alberth>ok, maybe it gets fixed then.
05:17<@planetmaker>iirc long vehicles 5 is on hold due to missing openttd features, though
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05:23<andythenorth_> Mmm cheese
05:29<@Terkhen>andythenorth_: I have been working on the scenario format, yes
05:29<andythenorth_>:)
05:29<@Terkhen>there are still a long list of stuff to code, though
05:30<@Terkhen>soon I'm leaving to do some tourism, I don't know when I'll be back but I'll probably be available for playing this evening
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05:34<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but var 61/62 has been implemented for a while now
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05:41<@Terkhen>bbl
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05:49<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, if that's what was missing, then it's even better and I'm happy to be wrong about the "missing longvehicles5" :-)
05:50<Rubidium>what's missing from OpenTTD is support for negative "shorten vehicle" factors
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05:53<@planetmaker>too bad. Not sure that that is a good addition, though
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06:32*andythenorth ponders
06:32<andythenorth>there is no way to make FIRS build fishing harbours near lighthouses
06:32<andythenorth>but it would be neat :P
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07:33<andythenorth>btw /me is again hiring developers
07:33<andythenorth>specifically, I want to find a bi-lingual programmer for a translation project
07:34<andythenorth>so far I have 1 CV from a spanish guy :)
07:35<andythenorth>it's not Terkhen ;)
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07:49<Zuu>Playing against your own AI is interesting. I gave it a head start to fill the map, and then tried to compeete against it. It give the same sort of challenge as joining late on a MP server and trying to fit in your tracks in the mess. :-)
07:51<@planetmaker>:-)
07:51<@planetmaker>Compete on the same routes ;-)
07:54<Zuu>The hard part about playing against an AI is that you cannot leave a secondary industry with high production without servicing it yourself directly. Otherwise, the AI is there quick and take the secondary cargo and profit from it.
07:55<Zuu>If you do bring the secondary cargo from start, you can probably keep it for yourself if the service is good. At least CluelessPlus is mainly looking at the difference between produced cargo and transported cargo. If that gap is large enough, it uses the industry, otherwise not.
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07:57<@planetmaker>:-) yup. But that's fair enough, imho
07:57<Zuu>yep
07:57<Zuu>I'm sure there are some AIs that will try to compete on well serviced industries too if they are having a very high production.
07:57<@planetmaker>he. I'm actually tempted to have an AI run on the coop stable server. Just for the fun ;-)
07:58<@planetmaker>oh, sure there are such AIs. But might not be their best option
07:58<Zuu>You could install a few and then make it select a random AI.
07:58<@planetmaker>yes... I fear only that our audience won't appreciate that
07:58<@planetmaker>any AI that is
07:59<Zuu>Some AIs can be configured to not use "steal" industries.
07:59<Zuu>s/use //
08:00<Zuu>you could also lower the speed of the AI by reducing the AI construction speed as well as the number of opcodes that it has per tick
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08:03<Zuu>Or get IdleMore and noone will complain on the AI :-p
08:04<@planetmaker>hehe :-) But that's a good reminder about those options. I might sneakily give it a try maybe somewhen
08:10<@planetmaker>hm... with the admin port... we could run a game for X years... and read out game data after that time... meh, still no good usecase for the admin port around :-(
08:10<@planetmaker>very sad
08:11<@planetmaker>s/use case/useable application/
08:18<LordAro>poke dih3dral :P
08:20<@planetmaker>hehe yes
08:22*planetmaker installes twisted, though
08:22<@planetmaker>-e
08:23<@Alberth>nice, Twisted
08:24<@planetmaker>you got experience with it, Alberth ?
08:25<@Alberth>I have touched the stuff, yes
08:25<LordAro>planetmaker: why do you want it?
08:25<@Alberth>at least if you talk about Twisted from twistedmatrix.com :)
08:26<@Alberth>LordAro: for your program, it's a framework for writing asynchronous networked programs
08:27<@Alberth>it does many network protocols out of the box
08:27<LordAro>sounds fun
08:27<@planetmaker>that's why I want it. Or rather look at it
08:27<@Alberth>programming it is however somewhat.... twisted
08:27<@planetmaker>It's python
08:28<LordAro>shame it's written in python, or i may have been able to use it myself for my own projects...
08:28<@planetmaker>(that was no answer to albert's last statement) ;-)
08:28<@Alberth>but that's mainly due to working with asynchronous events
08:29*LordAro -> lunch. Alberth can explain 'my own projects' if planetmaker really wants t o know ;) :P
08:29<@Alberth>LordAro: the ideas that they use are very general
08:29<@Alberth>the dear Lord believes there are not enough chat programs in the world :p
08:30<@planetmaker>oh, really?
08:30<@planetmaker>I've seen enough of them to conclude for every chat problem exists a solution ;-)
08:31<@Alberth>yep, but it's a nice excuse to do some network programming :)
08:31<@planetmaker>openttd admin port would be a better one :-P
08:31<@planetmaker>or openttd web config ;-)
08:31<@planetmaker>or even a combination of both :-P
08:32<@Alberth>the main problem with chat is that it is used too much, instead of a sane protocol
08:33<@Alberth>you flatten data to arbitrary text, and at the other end try to make sense of it by parsing a text stream, instead of using something designed for passing information from A to B, like xmpp or so :)
08:34<@Alberth>but enough of that, why do you want Twisted?
08:35<@planetmaker>no particular reason except that it seemed to me means to marry openttd admin port to irc and web interface
08:36<@planetmaker>not that I have done *anything* in that respect so far except toy around little with twisted
08:36<@planetmaker>nor actually likely that I'll get something done in any timeframe worth quoting ;-)
08:38<@Alberth>I fully agree it is the right solution to the network problem you describe
08:38<@planetmaker>and next to dih's java implementation of an openttd admin port library there's xaroth's bit dated python implementation for it. So either of those two languages would lend itself to such attempt
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08:38<@Alberth>Oh, 'networking' is generic enough to work in almost any language
08:38<@planetmaker>:-)
08:39<@planetmaker>yes, but I'm lazy ;-)
08:39<@Alberth>(as long as you don't try functional and declarative languages too much :) )
08:39<@planetmaker>and a proof-of-concept IRC connection was half a screen of code
08:39<@planetmaker>same with a web server
08:40<@planetmaker>twisted seemed well documented to me, too with loads of examples. Which... makes it somewhat easier starting point
08:40<@Alberth>usually the code does almost nothing, the big problem is managing the state of everything, which works nicely with Twisted as it gets distributed
08:41<@Alberth>for a certain value of 'nice' that you get with asynchronously executing code :p
08:41<@planetmaker>:-)
08:41<@planetmaker>but I think the asynchronous execution is actually what I want in this case
08:42<@planetmaker>to me it seems like a problem with three sub-problems which just communicate a few things with eachother
08:42<@Alberth>you definitely want asynchronous execution
08:42<andythenorth>I want asychnronous pixel drawing
08:42<andythenorth>and an MP game :P
08:43<@Alberth>while Twisted is a good answer, it is to me also horrible enough to avoid it like the plague
08:43<@planetmaker>he :D
08:43<@planetmaker>what would you choose, Alberth ?
08:43<@Alberth>so I'd write a custom async program instead I think
08:43<@planetmaker>ah
08:44<andythenorth>iirc there are some async python packages
08:44<andythenorth>without requiring the framework
08:44<@Alberth>async stuff in the stdlibrary are toys
08:46<andythenorth>who wants to set the buy menu order for me in FISH 2?
08:46<andythenorth>I'm guessing no-one :P
08:46*andythenorth can't get the staff :P
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08:48*Alberth digs up an old chat-log planetmaker: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1624/
08:51<@Alberth>a job in your case would be a connection to some port
08:52<@planetmaker>hm :-) ty
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08:53<@Alberth>Twisted goes further in also making other things asynchronous, such as DB access, and of course it does the various protocols out of the box
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08:54<@Alberth>pehaps I hate Twisted too much :p
08:54<@planetmaker>sounds like traumatic experiences in that field ;-)
08:55<@Alberth>andythenorth: ordered by year of introduction?
08:56<@Alberth>planetmaker: nah, just terribly fear for the complexity of async things :)
08:57<@planetmaker>he, yeah :-) It's... complex
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09:05<andythenorth>Alberth: fortunately ottd already has sort by year of introduction ;)
09:05<andythenorth>it's the default sort I should fix :P
09:05*andythenorth -> nml docs
09:06<@Alberth>:)
09:06<@Alberth>can you control that?
09:06<andythenorth>yes
09:06<andythenorth>oh
09:06<andythenorth>it's been encoded rather neatly in nml :P
09:07<andythenorth>it's just a list :P
09:07<andythenorth>where's the fun in that?
09:07<@planetmaker>hehe
09:07<andythenorth>I was going to make a list, then for each vehicle find previous vehicle, then encode that in action 0 prop in templated nml :|
09:07<andythenorth>this is too easy :P
09:08<andythenorth>all I have to do is use an ordered folder in my CMS
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09:13<@Alberth>coding is too easy, switch back to nfo
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09:27<Jake>Is there a "no duplicate AIs" setting I haven't found? Because I think we need one. Multiple instances of StreetTraffic when you're running large numbers of road vehicles is a whole bunch of absolutely no fun at all.
09:28<@Alberth>limit the number of AI players to 1 ?
09:28<@Alberth>or manually set which AI to use for each opponent
09:29<Jake>Point. I do prefer a little bit of competition, though.
09:30<@planetmaker>hand-configure which AI to use
09:32<Jake>That'd work, but I like to be surprised occasionally by the competition. Eh, maybe I just need to figure out why my Internet connection drops out every twenty minutes or so.
09:32<Jake>Also, what d'you guys reckon to the new scenario I posted?
09:38<Zuu>I beleive StreetTraffic doesn't set the "don't use as random AI" flag. If you uninstall it and get TownCars instead, IIRC that AI have that flag set and will never be chosen by OpenTTD as random AI.
09:39<@Alberth>Jake: I hardly play OpenTTD, the last time I played a scenario is over ten years ago
09:39<Zuu>Or you can add " function UseAsRandomAI() { return false; }
09:39<Zuu>" to info.nut of street traffic if you want to ues it still.
09:39<Jake>Brilliant. Thanks Zuu.
09:40<Zuu>Move it from ./content_download/ai to ./ai and untar.
09:40<Zuu>when it sits in ./ai, IIRC OpenTTD will not find it if it sits in a tar.
09:41<Zuu>The reason for moving is that you shouldn't store files in content_download as OpenTTD may remove/overwrite thoses files at is choise.
09:42<Zuu>s/is choise/it's choise/
09:42<Zuu>or just "its"? ...
09:43<@Alberth>it's is a short-hand for it is
09:44<Zuu>yep, and thus doesn't fit there
09:49<@planetmaker>s/choise/choice/ ;-)
09:50<Zuu>meh :-D
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10:26<andythenorth>ho ho
10:27<andythenorth>my default 'sort on ID' is currently alphabetical order :P
10:27<andythenorth>so I'll fix that. Pax ships first in the list?
10:27<@planetmaker>sounds good
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10:42<drac_boy>hi
10:52<xQR>mh, there is GSTile.DemolishTile() which invokes the DoCommand CmdLandscapeClear
10:52<xQR>but that can only be used to clear a single tile
10:52<xQR>is there no GS function for CmdClearArea to clear a full area of tiles?
10:57<andythenorth>planetmaker: GS game?
10:57<andythenorth>MP?
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10:58<@planetmaker>not for me today
10:58<andythenorth>nvm
10:58<@planetmaker>but I'll happily start the server
10:58<andythenorth>any other players? :P
10:58<andythenorth>Alberth: Zuu et al?
10:58<andythenorth>I'm going to put a new fish alpha out
10:59<@Alberth>at 5 pm?
10:59<Zuu>in 1 minute?
10:59<@Terkhen>hello
11:00<@planetmaker>r24530 running in #openttdcoop.nightly
11:00<andythenorth>any time suits
11:00<andythenorth>I will have to run out and do children things anyway
11:03<andythenorth>NoCarGoal or SV?
11:06<@Alberth>I was about to prepare some dinner first
11:07<andythenorth>well it takes time to prepare a game anyway
11:07<andythenorth>we could play later
11:08<andythenorth>anybody object to NoCarGoal 7 years, FIRS, NARS 2 ?
11:08<Zuu>7 years sounds like a good time frame.
11:09<@Alberth>the problem with FIRS imho is that you are the only person that knows the set
11:09<Zuu>I prefer something easier than FIRS where you can easier spot connections. ^^
11:09<andythenorth>smaller FIRS? :P
11:10<andythenorth>one day maybe :P
11:10<andythenorth>PBI + NoCarGoal would be very hard
11:10<Zuu>OpenGFX+ Industries with parameters to use extra chains from other climate?
11:11*drac_boy always likes anything freight-related to have HEQS as well
11:11<drac_boy>but :)
11:12<andythenorth>Zuu: do you want to make a map?
11:12<andythenorth>I have toddlers to wrangle
11:12<@Alberth>lots of water :)
11:12<andythenorth>long and thin is interesting
11:12<drac_boy>oh yeah waters reminds me...
11:13<drac_boy>is it still something thats going to be in progress yet or are there any grf that actually have sail/steam era ships?
11:13<Zuu>I could. I've found some interesting random map gen settings at the moment. Though those doesn't involve lots of water but I could raise water level :-)
11:13<andythenorth>drac_boy: early ships has them
11:13<andythenorth>check the forum for it
11:13<@Terkhen>Zuu: I would like an extra chains game :P
11:13<drac_boy>FISH is kinda too limited..theres only like two .. an expensive paddleship and a cheap but tiny oil-fired tugboat
11:13<andythenorth>might be called 'sailing ships' or 'early ships', I forget :P
11:13<drac_boy>hmm ok
11:14<drac_boy>thanks anyway andythenorth
11:14<andythenorth>it has windjammers and things
11:15<Zuu>What is a good transport target? 30k? 50k?
11:15<@Alberth>no idea, 30K ?
11:22<andythenorth>frosch has stats somewhere
11:22<andythenorth>on devs.openttd
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11:24<andythenorth>it's as though he's prescient
11:24<Zuu>I have noted in the readme that 12500 on 7 years is possible and 25000 is a challenge for a team.
11:24<andythenorth>or at least telepathic
11:24<andythenorth>frosch123: where is your GS stats page?
11:25<frosch123>https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/NoCarGoal <- that one?
11:25<andythenorth>:)
11:25<Zuu>Btw, what climate should we play?
11:25<andythenorth>don't care
11:26*Zuu probably picks artic or desert
11:27<__ln__>it's silly one can't have all the climates on one map.
11:27<@Terkhen>as silly as "needs to rework the map implementation" :P
11:27<@Terkhen>toyland!
11:28<frosch123>it's silly to reduce the climate choice to only graphics
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11:28<andythenorth>it's silly to have Toyland :P
11:28<__ln__>reduce in what sense?
11:28<andythenorth>frosch123: +1 to that point
11:28<andythenorth>firs got it wrong
11:28<__ln__>toyland could be replaced with mars.
11:28<@Terkhen>true, toyland is meant to be silly
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11:28<drac_boy>frosch123 yeah I agree beside winter != desert :)
11:29<@Terkhen>you should be able to replace anything with mars, all climates, whatever
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11:29<drac_boy>terkhen or for non-frictious sets such as that unfinished unreleased (last I recall) brickland grf
11:29<andythenorth>Zuu: don't miss FISH 2 in your game :)
11:29<Zuu>FISH 2 from bananas is included
11:29<frosch123>does it have reworked cost?
11:29<frosch123>else don'T miss the basecost od
11:29<frosch123>*m,od
11:30<__ln__>anyway, on a big map it wouldn't be that silly if one end was desert and the other snow.
11:30<frosch123>design a newterrain grf feature
11:30<frosch123>with action 123 support
11:31<andythenorth>frosch123: I reduced costs about 50% for FISH yesterday
11:31<Zuu>NARS 2.03 from 2009?
11:31<andythenorth>sounds fine
11:31<andythenorth>start date?
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11:33<@Terkhen>1975
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11:36<Zuu>Hmm, NARS contain a GEAR cargo?
11:36<Zuu>NoCargGoal picked the GEAR cargo when I tested to generate a map :-)
11:38<Pinkbeast>It's locomotive regearing, and a constant source of bugs.
11:38<@planetmaker>yes, NARS is (the only?) NewGRF using the regearing cargo
11:39<@planetmaker>that cargo considered a deprecated exercise one. But... it's still there
11:39<@planetmaker>maybe you can specifically exclude that one cargo in NoCarGoal, Zuu?
11:39<@Terkhen>GS scripts should ignore cargos with cargo class CC_SPECIAL for stuff like choosing valid cargos to transport
11:39<@planetmaker>indeed
11:40<Zuu>Sure, could make a such update, but for now I just hit "newgame" if it appears. Such things are hard to know of from reading the NoGo spec.
11:46<Zuu>1024x128?
11:46<Zuu>(map size)
11:46<Zuu>plenty of land and plenty of water
11:46<andythenorth>ok
11:46<andythenorth>long and thin is good
11:47<andythenorth>Zuu: can you allow unlimited (or at least long) trains?
11:47<andythenorth>sometimes I would like to run longer than than l5 :P
11:47<andythenorth>more like l25 :P
11:48<Zuu>hmm, oh, haven't looked through the adv. settings yet.
11:48<andythenorth>takes so long to setup a game :)
11:49<andythenorth>new lego train http://www.brothers-brick.com/2012/09/29/announcing-10233-horizon-express/
11:49<drac_boy>heh I always have station spread set for 17 ... don't know why :->
11:49<drac_boy>trains usually ends up 2 to 14 tiles long anyhow
11:50<Zuu>andythenorth: 125 tiles?
11:50<andythenorth>25 ;)
11:57<Zuu>http://devs.openttd.org/~zuu/mp/NoCarGoal-game-2012-09-30.sav <-- game
11:57<Zuu>It has trains up to 20 tiles, but station spread at 14. (I usually have it at 10, so it has already been raised by 40%)
11:59<andythenorth>\o/
11:59<andythenorth>hmm
12:00<andythenorth>actually, does that mean trains too long for stations? :)
12:00<andythenorth>nvm if so
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12:08<andythenorth>xUSSR set looks nice
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12:10<NGC3982>Evening, people and Andy.
12:11<andythenorth>an old joke
12:11<andythenorth>but a classic apparently
12:11<andythenorth>:P
12:12<NGC3982>;).
12:12<NGC3982>All is well with andythenorth?
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12:41<Eddi|zuHause>anyone care to explain what the joke is?
12:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: item 2 here http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LadiesAndGerms
12:43<andythenorth>also http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MyFriendsAndZoidberg
12:44<NGC3982>Harr.
12:44<NGC3982>:D
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13:21<Eddi|zuHause>oh. i thought there was something more to it. then it's alright.
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>i kinda forced one of those onto me once
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13:24<Eddi|zuHause>http://pastebin.com/B2BWAwJJ
13:25<@planetmaker>lol, Eddi|zuHause
13:26<@planetmaker>you're soooooo mainstream grey mouse like ;-)
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24562 trunk/src/lang/lithuanian.txt (2012-09-30 17:45:12 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 11 changes by RunisLabs
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15:18<andythenorth>I have solved RVs
15:18<@planetmaker>wow. With sulfuric acid?
15:19<@planetmaker>(though not sure that whole RVs would solve in it)
15:19<andythenorth>:P
15:20<frosch123>maybe if you combine it with furnace temparatures
15:20<andythenorth>seriously :P
15:20<@planetmaker>not furnance. but vulcanic will do
15:21<andythenorth>instead of building truck, and then refitting trailer, body type etc
15:21<andythenorth>and all the pain of that with autorefit
15:21<frosch123>yeah, i guess vulcans solve about anything
15:21<andythenorth>build the trailer, then refit to the truck with subtypes :P
15:21<andythenorth>have maybe 3 truck models
15:21<@planetmaker>that's an interesting concept :-)
15:21<andythenorth>it's insane :|
15:21<@planetmaker>indeed it is
15:22<andythenorth>but would make for a very simple buy menu
15:22<andythenorth>and it's better for trams than having say, 105 different trams in the buy menu :P
15:22<frosch123>probably does not work at all for autoreplace :p
15:22<frosch123>unless you never ewant to change model
15:22<andythenorth>ugh
15:22<andythenorth>ach
15:22<andythenorth>all that matters is you have 'tank truck'
15:23<andythenorth>of certain capacity
15:23<andythenorth>everything else (speed, power etc) you just want 'best' , right?
15:23<frosch123>too short purchase lists are also bad if you play with breakdowns
15:23<frosch123>nars sucks esp. with that
15:24<@planetmaker>too short purchase lists?
15:25<frosch123>with breakdowns you need multiple similar vehicles, so you can drop those with very low reliability
15:25<@planetmaker>oh, hm, yes
15:25<frosch123>that does not work for vehicles which upgrade themself
15:25<frosch123>instead it renders a complete series useless :p
15:26<@planetmaker>different playing styles :-) It's a problem I rarely encounter, I guess
15:26<andythenorth>so how insane is my idea?
15:26<andythenorth>workable?
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15:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the lack of autoreplace is a killer feature for me...
15:43<andythenorth>hmm
15:43<andythenorth>ok
15:44<andythenorth>well it was a nice idea :P
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15:54<FLHerne>andythenorth: It sounded saner than some of your other ideas :D
15:54<FLHerne>But yes, autoreplace is important :P
15:54*FLHerne relies on template-replace now :-(
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16:03<andythenorth>so I am out of ideas for RVs :(
16:04<andythenorth>anyone else got ideas?
16:06<Jake>Motorbikes?
16:07<FLHerne>andythenorth: Does 'separate vehicles of the same family for different cargo groups' work?
16:07<andythenorth>yes ish
16:07<FLHerne>Buy-menu spam > no truckset :P
16:07<andythenorth>variable length makes it worse
16:08<andythenorth>let's say 7 types of tram
16:08<andythenorth>3 lengths
16:08<andythenorth>5 cargo groups
16:08<andythenorth>@calc 7 * 3 * 5
16:08<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 105
16:08<FLHerne>Trams are just a pain :P
16:08<FLHerne>How many kinds of relengthable tram will be available at one time, though?
16:09<Wolf01>nighty night
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16:09<andythenorth>about 3 or 4
16:09<andythenorth>assuming vehicles expire
16:10<FLHerne>andythenorth: Only 50-odd entries then :P
16:10<FLHerne>Is there a limit on buy-menu entries?
16:10<andythenorth>not afaik
16:10<FLHerne>No real problem then :P
16:11<andythenorth>the variable lengths might need to be abandoned
16:11<FLHerne>The refitting method is silly and unusable :P
16:12<FLHerne>But variable length in general is nice :P
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16:31<frosch123>night
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16:39<andythenorth>bye
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17:21<Jake>O...kay. That is genuinely the first time I've regretted not at least skim-reading server rules.
17:22<FLHerne>Jake: What server?
17:22<Jake>OpenTTDCoop.
17:22<TrueBrain>Rule 1: insult someone within 5 minutes
17:22*FLHerne remembers Luukland's ones were nasty
17:22<TrueBrain>I love my own server rules :D
17:22<FLHerne>Jake: Odd? I always remembered them as being quite sane :P
17:23<Jake>I mean, these things normally come down to "don't link to porn, don't spam, don't be a dick".
17:23<FLHerne>The 'coop' part is a hint :P
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17:25<TrueBrain>pff, and an (unwritten) channel rule is that leaving while in a conversation is rude too!
17:25<TrueBrain>pfffff
17:25<TrueBrain>:D
17:25<FLHerne>Soory, WM fail :-(
17:25<TrueBrain>:D
17:25<Jake>Well, yeah. I admit I should've seen the "don't compete directly for other people's cargos" part coming. It's the one about not using ships because their running costs are jacked up sky-high that I didn't expect.
17:26*FLHerne hates KWin sometimes :-(
17:26<Kjetil>KWin probably hates you as well
17:26<FLHerne>Probably because the PF for them lags :P
17:27<FLHerne>Kjetil: Perhaps because I kick it out in favour of openbox any time I want to do real work :P
17:27<TrueBrain>I can only hope KWin doesn't have any feelings :)
17:27<Kjetil>Computers are people too!
17:27<TrueBrain>says who?
17:28<Kjetil>The internets
17:28<TrueBrain>ah, ok. that settles it then :D
17:28<TrueBrain>I hate my internet connection ... 35 more minutes before this movie is done downloading ..... :(
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18:02<Zuu>Playing against this GS can be a challenge to find spots to build your connections. A industry is spawned every fift day: http://devs.openttd.org/~zuu/IndustryGS.png
18:03<Zuu>(not a GS that I plan to release though - just testing a change in OpenTTD to allow GS to build industries for free)
18:04<TrueBrain>that is sick Zuu
18:04<TrueBrain>:P
18:04<TrueBrain>you should add a newgrf where you can have slaves to move stuff over one industry :D
18:05<TrueBrain>or station over industries!
18:05<Zuu>What is interesting is that the GS pick a tile by random and a industry type independent of location. Yet all powerplants are on one side of the map and the coal mines on the other.
18:05<TrueBrain>restrictions of the placing routine in OpenTTD itself?
18:05<TrueBrain>doesnt it have code to avoid placing industries too close of some types?
18:05<Zuu>maybe
18:05<TrueBrain>just guessing :D
18:06<TrueBrain>now what you need is underground stations
18:06<TrueBrain>that would fix it
18:06<Zuu>It sounds possible. you can see a distance between the coal mines and powerplants with no coal industries.
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18:10<Zuu>I haven't yet figured out if my changes violate the NewGRF specs, multiplayer stability or some other important matter.
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18:13<Zuu>We had a NoCarGoal game today with the goal to transport plenty of steel. Only problem was that there were only three iron ore mines on the entire map.
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18:14<Zuu>Though the biggest problem was that it took 6 years to start to make money and then there was no time left to even think of funding industries.
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20:13<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure i have seen code that prevents "conflicting" industries nearby
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21:27<hmmwhatsthisdo>Is it possible to link airports?
21:27<hmmwhatsthisdo>(e.g. through control-click or putting them next to one another)
21:40<Supercheese>nope
21:45<hmmwhatsthisdo>damn.
21:46<Supercheese>yeah, would be nice, but not possible; same goes for docks
21:46<hmmwhatsthisdo>yea... I currently have an intercontinental airport with planes flying in a holding pattern for... "weeks"
21:47<Supercheese>International airport is technically more efficient than Intercontinental
21:47<Supercheese>as strange as it sounds
21:47<hmmwhatsthisdo>really?
21:47<Supercheese>yeah
21:47<Supercheese>lemme dig up the proof
21:47<@planetmaker>I see the need for ports - for eye candy reasons. But for airports...? SC is right, yes
21:47<Supercheese>Here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47279
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22:41<hmmwhatsthisdo>I'm finding a lot of stuff about modular airports, but all of it seems to be 3-4 years old. Did something happen with OpenTTD that stopped development of it all?
22:42<Supercheese>I think development is just paused
22:42<hmmwhatsthisdo>mmkay
22:42<hmmwhatsthisdo>Is anyone even bothering with development anymore?
22:43<Supercheese>with that specifically?
22:43<Supercheese>I dunno
22:43<Supercheese>in general? of course
22:46<@planetmaker>hmmwhatsthisdo, modular airports is a tricky issue with implications in many places. Especially the specs need to become sane...
22:46<@planetmaker>and sane specs for airports need still quite a bit of behind-the-scenes changes.
22:46<@planetmaker>It's not forgotten, not reject, but not yet done either
22:47<hmmwhatsthisdo>yea, I read something about the system that would be needed to interact with the state machine (I'm guessing that's analogous to the Air Traffic Controller) would be diabolically hard
22:47<@planetmaker>and for what it's worth: it's a wanted feature
22:47<@planetmaker>well... kinda. airports have fixed movement patterns for how vehicles can move in them
22:48<hmmwhatsthisdo>and the state machine makes those?
22:48<@planetmaker>or call it rules instead of pattern, if you want
22:48<@planetmaker>that *is* the state machine
22:48<hmmwhatsthisdo>oh.
22:49<@planetmaker>but the problem with that kind of airports is even more fundamental... they need access to more scopes than currently are available; they can't interact with that many related objects as they need to
22:50<hmmwhatsthisdo>so, in essence it would require way more work than it might seem?
22:50<@planetmaker>in essence: yes. Not would. But does. At least for a nice solution ;-)
22:52<@planetmaker>But still... we *will* get this nice solution. But not this year
22:53<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Secondary_Related_Objects is kinda the pre-condition I talk(ed) about
22:53<@planetmaker>we're still missing colums 3,4 and 5 ;-)
22:54<@planetmaker>(yes, very technical, I know)
22:54<hmmwhatsthisdo>ah
22:54<hmmwhatsthisdo>yea... it's a little bit difficult to read
22:55<@planetmaker>it's intended as memo to devs of what makes sense / is wanted and needed...
22:57<@planetmaker>in any case... airports likely won't get modular by this. They just will be possibly defined via NewGRF. Thus many different ones become possible
22:57<hmmwhatsthisdo>I wonder...
22:58<@planetmaker>in the same way like you now can define industries, houses or vehicles via newgrf
22:58<hmmwhatsthisdo>Wasn't there a feature in RCT2 that allowed people to prefab rollercoasters then use them in-game?
22:58<@planetmaker>I don't know. Nor does it really matter ;-)
22:59<hmmwhatsthisdo>Well, maybe instead of having truly modular airports that are built on-the-fly, there should be a method to prefab airports, have all the complicated stuff done beforehand, then save and use them in-game
23:00<Supercheese>that's essentially what NewAirport grfs would do
23:00<@planetmaker>The method to come is to allow add-on authors define their own airports
23:00<@planetmaker>ingame by the players... not so likely
23:01<Supercheese>^ that
23:02<hmmwhatsthisdo>mmk
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23:53<supermop>hi
23:53<Supercheese>salve
23:53<supermop>how's it going?
---Logclosed Mon Oct 01 00:00:21 2012