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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-10-01

---Logopened Mon Oct 01 00:00:21 2012
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00:43<Supercheese>was working a thermodynamics problem
00:43<Supercheese>involving geothermal power plants; flash evaporator pressures vs. turbine power outputs
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00:56<supermop>sounds like a good use of time
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00:56<Supercheese>took a while
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02:39<Supercheese>good night
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04:32<|Terkhen|>good morning
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05:43<Eddi|zuHause>is there a way to insert an action 0C in nml?
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06:15<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, that option doesn't exist. Also it will be very hard to do as you cannot define a place really
06:16<@planetmaker>nml ordering need not refer to nml ordering except the things which absolutely need be in order
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>i doubt it would really be hard
06:17<@planetmaker>not hard to add. but difficult to decide what it should refer to.
06:17<@planetmaker>i.e. it will be hard to do it in a way that produces the results which you might expect
06:18<@planetmaker>(and why do you need action 0x0C?
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>well let's call it "debugging symbols"
06:18<@planetmaker>care to elaborate?
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>ok, the idea was that i take each vehicle gnml and individually compile it to nfo/grf, then throw out everything to a "this is where headers end" marker, and combine that to a complete grf
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>to avoid shoving the entire nml into nmlc, which it kinda barfs on
06:21<@planetmaker>I see. Shouldn't it rather be fixed to not barf on the entire NML? what happens if you comment in (or out) single vehicle files?
06:21<@planetmaker>(I know you want to use it to fix the entire thing)
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>it's the sheer size of the parse tree that currently makes it close to unhandle-able
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>python is not very memory efficient
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>you could probably reduce it by factor 100-ish by implementing it in C++
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06:26<@planetmaker>maybe, yes
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07:15<@planetmaker>http://wiki.debian.org/TheFable is an awkward familiar story
07:26<Pinkbeast>Dear Railworks / Train Simulator 2013, why why is getting the HUD right for steam engines so hard?
07:29<@planetmaker>topic?
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07:35<dada_>anyone know if there's a way to remove/delete companies from a single player savegame? console tells me that those commands are only available in a network game.
07:35<Pinkbeast>Would it suffice to take them over with the cheat commands and bankrupt them?
07:35<dada_>I guess I could do that.
07:36<dada_>hm, this one has 200 million euros
07:36<dada_>this will take a while
07:37<Pinkbeast>Nope; raise and lower land in and out of the sea. You can chew up any amount of cash quickly.
07:37<Pinkbeast>... ISTR, no promises, that demolishing sea into land which then floods is also an efficient way to waste money.
07:38<dada_>ah yeah that works too
07:38<dada_>if you have money to burn that might be a nice way to bully your opponent's ships
07:40<Pinkbeast>If you're going in for thank kind of cheese, stompifying his RVs is a lot less hassle. :-)
07:43<@planetmaker>good that there are even AI which detect that kind of sabotage ;-)
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07:47<dada_>ok, maximum loan, no income, no funds. guess it's just a matter of waiting now.
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>dada_: there are two ways. if it's an AI company, use the stop_ai command, if it's a human company, save the game, start a multiplayer game (without anyone else joining) and use the multiplayer-only commands.
07:53<dada_>I just got asked if I want to take over the company, so I guess I'm making progress (said no)
07:54<dada_>Eddi|zuHause: thanks, I've gone the hackish way of bankrupting them instead
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11:08<andythenorth>autorefit on vehicles in a grf: "essential" or "nice to have" or "meh" ?
11:09<Pinkbeast>Nice to have.
11:09<supermop>same
11:09<Pinkbeast>... in practice I find autorefit tricky to make use of.
11:09<Pinkbeast>I might even incline to meh
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11:11<LordAro>hey all
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11:16*andythenorth might do a poll
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11:19<andythenorth>take a poll here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=62829
11:19<andythenorth>click now!
11:19<andythenorth>your views count!
11:19<andythenorth>people died for your right to vote!
11:22<supermop>it's really hard to motivate myself to draw anything again
11:23<supermop>yet when i try to play ottd about twice a year, i am too unsatisfied that the things i want in my game are not there
11:23<andythenorth>draw some blooody ships :P
11:23<supermop>so i think i am drifting away from the game as a result
11:23<andythenorth>happens
11:23<andythenorth>no game lasts for ever
11:24<andythenorth>played any GS games?
11:24<supermop>nope
11:24<andythenorth>total saviour of the game for me
11:24<andythenorth>otherwise I'd have had to do the big flouncy "I'm leaving" thing
11:25<supermop>saw a building in chinatown last night that would both be easy to draw and look good in game
11:26<supermop>and match the general style of other buildings I have drawn
11:26<andythenorth>with challenge GS all the 'game needs xyz' stuff disappears :)
11:26<andythenorth>you're too focussed on meeting the goal to look at graphics ;)
11:27<supermop>i like looking at little buildings
11:27<supermop>i see the game as a metabolism simulator
11:27<andythenorth>try a new way to make buildings: http://www.bricklink.com
11:27<Pinkbeast>I realised I'd be vexed if it broke HEQS tram refitting, so I think there's no denying I'm "meh" about it.
11:27<supermop>oh man andy
11:28<supermop>about a year ago i was so pumped at planning out how to build the capsule tower in legos
11:28<supermop>then i saw someone had already done it
11:28<andythenorth>http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?q=architecture&stype=dfic
11:29<supermop>then whenever i start thinking about making toy buildings
11:29<supermop>i remember i am an architect in a career rut
11:29<supermop>and i should do something about that instead
11:30<supermop>or i get side tracked by other hobbies like food coffee or records
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11:31<andythenorth>I wanted to be an architect
11:31<andythenorth>then I didn't :)
11:31<supermop>good choice
11:31<supermop>most of us are out of work
11:31<supermop>and at least in the us woefully underpaid
11:32<andythenorth>I got really into Calatrava's stuff for a bit
11:32<supermop>he's actually a civil engineer
11:32<andythenorth>I know
11:32<andythenorth>well he did both degrees
11:32<andythenorth>I was studying C Eng.
11:32<andythenorth>but that sucked so I stopped
11:33<andythenorth>I was going to do C. Eng then architecture degrees
11:33<andythenorth>but that would have been 8 years + 4 years to get chartered
11:33<andythenorth>education is over-rated :p
11:34<supermop>ha
11:34<supermop>i'd stay in school forever if i could afford it
11:34<supermop>speaking of getting sidetracked,
11:34<Jake>University education certainly is, though, at least when it comes to finding a job.
11:35<supermop>are you good with plants?
11:35<supermop>i need to repot my jade
11:35<supermop>living in chinatown there is no dirt on the ground so i have to go buy some
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11:37<Jake>I'm sure the Parks & Rec department wouldn't mind you borrowing some if you'd rather not find a garden centre.
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11:51<FLHerne>Heightmaps don't do rivers, do they?
11:51*FLHerne forgot
11:55<Elukka>i wish they did
11:55<Elukka>that'd make them a million times easier to do
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11:58<@planetmaker>heya
11:59<@planetmaker>andythenorth, don't you think you should ask your autorefit question in general openttd?
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12:11<andythenorth>planetmaker: maybe
12:11<andythenorth>I thought it was newgrf specific
12:11<andythenorth>feel free to move it
12:11<@planetmaker>there are arguments for either forum. Your choice. I just wonder
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12:20<andythenorth>'meh' is winning for autorefit so far
12:20<andythenorth>small sample size though
12:21<@planetmaker>that's why I was asking: exposure is small in that subforum compared to general
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12:21<andythenorth>planetmaker: move the post ;)
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12:23<andythenorth>I do wonder if autorefit is over-rated for gameplay
12:23<@planetmaker>andythenorth, done.
12:23<andythenorth>thanks
12:23<andythenorth>especially, we have no partial load orders etc
12:24<andythenorth>and the cases where there is a useful backload may be limited
12:24<@planetmaker>andythenorth, autorefit available will load different cargos concurrently
12:24<andythenorth>I have only used it a bit with UKRS 2
12:24<andythenorth>ah yes
12:24<@planetmaker>which is helpful in some stations
12:24<andythenorth>autorefit + YACD would have been significantly awesome
12:24<@planetmaker>very much so
12:24<andythenorth>different cargos concurrently is no use for ships or RVs or planes though ;)
12:25<@planetmaker>that's true
12:25<@planetmaker>but still, like "load available" will take the most common cargo which can be good
12:25<@planetmaker>and ensure good rating for all of them
12:26<andythenorth>would be more useful if ships had n holds :)
12:26<@planetmaker>would make sense from that perspective, yes.
12:27<frosch123>planetmaker: autorefit is far more suitable for trains
12:27<frosch123>not so much for other vehicles
12:28<@planetmaker>yes, of course
12:28<frosch123>ah, andy said that already
12:28<@planetmaker>And I fully agree
12:28<frosch123>though it should also work for small rv
12:29<frosch123>i.e. when you have many of them
12:29<@planetmaker>well, it does, doesn't it?
12:29<frosch123>in the only usecase i had for autorefit, i played nuts, and was not allowed to :p
12:29<andythenorth>it's odd though, to have it for small rv, but not large :P
12:30<frosch123>well, large rv are specialised
12:30<frosch123>sell it as game balance
12:30<frosch123>either big cheap stuff
12:30<frosch123>or small universal
12:30<frosch123>might give small vehicles some use :)
12:32<FLHerne>andythenorth: Autorefit is awesome :D
12:33<FLHerne>Now I can transport every mineral cargo in FIRS on one set of trains :p
12:37<Nat_aS>I don't care as much about auto-refit, as the ability to mix cargos
12:37<Nat_aS>esp on cargo planes to remote islands with farms
12:37<Nat_aS>two planes won't make a profit, but there are two types of cargo
12:37<Nat_aS>one plane would make a profit if it could hold both cargos
12:37<Nat_aS>and then transport a mixture of food and goods back to the island.
12:38<FLHerne>Nat_aS: Multi-cargo things without autorefit don't work properly :P
12:38<Nat_aS>lol
12:38<Nat_aS>well that's why I want auto-refit then
12:39<Nat_aS>because airplanes have really tight cargo margins, that are suposed to be made up for by there superior flexibility
12:39<Nat_aS>but they are less flexible because a train can cary more than one cargo, and a plane can't
12:39<FLHerne>Well, they work but they never balance properly. So all you get is full load of one thing, and lots of space on the other side :-(
12:39<FLHerne>'planes can carry mail :P
12:40<Nat_aS>adding empty cars to a train does little to reduce efficancy
12:40<Nat_aS>so if you have long stations you can make a train that's half full both ways, but carrying two kinds of cargo
12:40<Nat_aS>it's less of a problem than airplanes.
12:40<FLHerne>Same happens for planes though. And that *is* inefficient :P
12:41<FLHerne>Why would you make one train for two cargos? Why not just two separate ones of half the length?
12:41<Nat_aS>less inefficant than having to buy a second airplane just to carry grain AND livestock
12:41<Nat_aS>I really like the C130 in AV8 though
12:41<Nat_aS>it's perfect for diamonds
12:42*FLHerne hasn't tried airfreight much :P
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12:52<NGC3982>I so want to build a NewGRF with warpdrive
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13:05*FLHerne complains about error priority
13:06<FLHerne>If I try to play a scenario containing no towns, it complains about GUI sprites (nightly) instead of mentioning the actually-serious issue
13:11<@planetmaker>FLHerne, as the missing gui sprites will be an issue in every game (update your opengfx)
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13:13<FLHerne>planetmaker: I have :P
13:13<FLHerne>But a few missing gui sprites don't stop me playing :P
13:14<@planetmaker>FLHerne, the current bananas release of opengfx gives you that?!
13:15<FLHerne>It does now :-)
13:15<FLHerne>Very convenient :P
13:15<FLHerne>Also, how come rivers can be overbuilt with canals, but not the opposite?
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13:26<frosch123>ah!
13:26<frosch123>open the bottle before trying to drink
13:26<frosch123>that's how it works
13:31<andythenorth>orly?
13:31<andythenorth>can you start a newsletter about that?
13:31<andythenorth>so I await poll results
13:32<andythenorth>but I would bet that autorefit is 'meh'
13:32<frosch123>you mean something like a list of nak codes your mouth can send, and what they mean?
13:32<andythenorth>and that will make BANDIT / HEQS so much easier
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13:34<andythenorth>child fell over in the bath :P
13:34<andythenorth>every time I mix irc and bathtime, something bad happens :P
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13:38<FLHerne>andythenorth: Get a waterproof tablet :P
13:40<andythenorth>bad for the child
13:40<andythenorth>laptop, don't care about :P
13:40<FLHerne>Keyboards are hard to make waterproof ;-)
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13:42<andythenorth>so....rv-wagons
13:42<andythenorth>would that improve gameplay?
13:42<andythenorth>or is it lots more tedious clicking?
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13:44<frosch123>so...tile based airports
13:44<frosch123>would that improve gameplay?
13:44<frosch123>or is it lots more tedious clicking?
13:45<andythenorth>yes
13:45<FLHerne>andythenorth: The former yes, dunno about the latter
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24563 /trunk/src/lang (lithuanian.txt welsh.txt) (2012-10-01 17:45:14 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 8 changes by RunisLabs
13:45<@DorpsGek>welsh - 13 changes by kazzie
13:45<andythenorth>frosch123: my or was OR not XOR
13:45<FLHerne>I'd prefer the current airport system, but with newgrf-definable ones :P
13:46<FLHerne>RV-wagons would be very good for trams :-)
13:46<andythenorth>meh
13:46<andythenorth>trams should just be a railtype
13:46*andythenorth thinks everything should be a railtype
13:47<andythenorth>it's a train game anyway
13:47<andythenorth>if we remove the other types, that will improve performance right?
13:47<andythenorth>and developers can spend time on codes for trains
13:47<andythenorth>more effficient :P
13:47<frosch123>i thought everything was a cargo :p
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13:48<andythenorth>I thought you were working on that in a branch?
13:50<andythenorth>using tile based airports, can I create 'roads' ?
13:50<andythenorth>and a 'truck' that flies at 0 feet
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14:00<frosch123>yes
14:00<frosch123>but they cannot have trailers
14:01<andythenorth>can't I abuse the shadow?
14:01<frosch123>new rotors :p
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14:03<andythenorth>NewRotors
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14:16<frosch123>hmm, someone knows whether the inflation is reset when starting a scenario?
14:24<frosch123>@calc 2**(63-32)
14:24<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 2147483648
14:27<frosch123>omg...
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14:53<BadBrett>i'm beginning to hate FIRS... everytime i come up with a new idea, it's already there :p
14:54<andythenorth>[shrug]
14:54<andythenorth>:P
14:54<BadBrett>at least i have 2-3 exclusive industries :p
14:54<andythenorth>FIRS is just a copy of Railroad Tycoon
14:55<BadBrett>well... that explains a lot... because i use RRT as inspiration as well
14:55<BadBrett>:)
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15:12<andythenorth>so what does autorefit do with subtypes?
15:12<andythenorth>preserve current?
15:12<andythenorth>pick first?
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15:18<andythenorth>I guess the code knows :P
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15:21<FLHerne>andythenorth: New crazy idea? :P
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15:22<FLHerne>Just got back, the extractor fan was shorting everything out :-(
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15:29<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24564 /trunk/src (economy.cpp saveload/afterload.cpp) (2012-10-01 19:29:31 UTC)
15:29<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5312] (r17433): Limiting the inflation did not quite work.
15:32<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24565 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2012-10-01 19:31:55 UTC)
15:32<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Stop both price and payment inflation if either of them has reached MAX_INFLATION.
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15:33<Kitty>I wish there was a way to merge two stations...
15:33<frosch123>upon construction or later?
15:35<Kitty>later
15:38<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24566 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2012-10-01 19:38:08 UTC)
15:38<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Reorder some code more intuitively. (Juanjo)
15:39<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24567 trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp (2012-10-01 19:38:57 UTC)
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15:39<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5261]: Non-train vehicle lists were not resorted when vehicles were renamed. (Juanjo)
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15:40<andythenorth>where is autorefit in src?
15:40<supermop>bought dirt
15:40<frosch123>economy.cpp
15:40<frosch123>iirc
15:42<andythenorth>some stuff there yes
15:43<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24568 trunk/src/group_cmd.cpp (2012-10-01 19:43:10 UTC)
15:43<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: No need to resort the group GUI when toggling the autoreplace protection. (Juanjo)
15:43<andythenorth>if I read it correctly, autorefit does try to use the subtype specified in orders
15:46<frosch123>ignore that
15:46<andythenorth>could the station refit menu gain a new cb?
15:46<frosch123>subtype in orders makes no sense
15:46<andythenorth>because...?
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15:47<frosch123>is broken, and probably needs removal for fs#3764
15:47<frosch123>it only stores the numerical subtype index
15:47<frosch123>which can mean totally different things for different vehicles
15:48<frosch123>so it kind of only works for non-trains and when all vehicles are of the same engine
15:49<frosch123>for fs#3764 i would anticipate that the subtype is dropped from the refit-order gui
15:49<frosch123>and every vehicle tries to refit to the cargo while keeping the subtype
15:50<frosch123>really setting a subtype in the refit order gui, would need some method to store the text it addresses in some way
15:50<frosch123>i have not found such a way :p
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15:50<andythenorth>how about this idea?
15:50<andythenorth>"subtypes are broken" :P
15:52<andythenorth>therefore rm them
15:52*andythenorth is probably being too extreme, again
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15:56<andythenorth>we haven't pissed off enough newgrf authors recently
15:56<andythenorth>they have it too easy, what with this new fangled nml thing and such
15:56<frosch123>did you manage to get banned from simuscape? :p
15:56<andythenorth>didn't try
15:56<andythenorth>I am happy with simuscape
15:57<andythenorth>:)
15:57<frosch123>ah, i thought you tried to piss them off, and was banned
15:57<andythenorth>they're happy, we're happy, everyone's happy
15:57<andythenorth>no no
15:57<andythenorth>I thought better about being an idiot :P
15:57<andythenorth>and there were apologies all round too
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16:08<andythenorth>frosch123: we should Overton Window the newgrf spec ;)
16:08<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
16:09<andythenorth>we propose a totally unacceptable change to newgrf spec
16:09<andythenorth>newgrf authors then declare sky is falling
16:09<andythenorth>then we announce we only change a small section of spec
16:09<andythenorth>newgrf authors have small celebration party
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16:11<frosch123>aren't we more used to the door-in-the-face technique? which is linked from that page :p
16:13<andythenorth>I have tried door-in-the-face on ottd devs, doesn't bloody work :P
16:13<andythenorth>door goes in my face :)
16:14<frosch123>yeah, you have to know the articulations
16:15<andythenorth>he
16:15<Knogle>hm, whats 'industry_platform = 1' in openttd.cfg, its not mention in the wiki
16:16<frosch123>i would guess it is about terraforming
16:16<frosch123>when a industry is build it sometimes tries to level some land
16:16<Knogle>makes sense
16:16<frosch123>maybe it levels industry_platform moretiles to make it look less weird
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16:23<supermop>haha "foot in the face" method
16:23*andythenorth uses "foot in mouth" method too often :P
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16:24<frosch123>i try to get food in mouth every day
16:24<andythenorth>better than feet
16:25<frosch123>chicken feet?
16:25<frosch123>likely more legs than feet, not sure about the anatomy
16:26<supermop>i can get either here in chinatown
16:26<dada_>you can eat the chicken's feet too
16:26<dada_>never had it though
16:27<andythenorth>frosch123: I dare you to remove subtypes ;)
16:27<andythenorth>see what happens
16:28<andythenorth>it's probably wise that andythenorth has no openttd commit rights
16:28<frosch123>yeah, it already scared me that you got voice :p
16:29<frosch123>i expected you would be able to flood #openttd, dev and devzone :)
16:30<frosch123>i don't get the foot-in-face method
16:32<frosch123>they say foot in face causes less harm than door in face though :)
16:32<andythenorth>I don't want to test that :P
16:33<frosch123>are there any rumours about the world ending when the 113th element spawns?
16:34<andythenorth>probably
16:34<andythenorth>there are rumours about world ending for so many things :P
16:34<andythenorth>individually each one makes me quite worried
16:34<andythenorth>taken together, worrying seems quite silly :P
16:34<supermop>world ends when nml supports bridges
16:35<frosch123>andythenorth: it would have the advantage that we no longer have to care about subtypes
16:35<andythenorth>or autorefit
16:35<andythenorth>and all tickets would be closed by default
16:35<andythenorth>or at least "won't fix"
16:43*andythenorth bed
16:43<andythenorth>bye
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16:45<@Terkhen>good night
16:58<frosch123>night
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20:52<TorA>Anyone here know why I have no Livestock car in the NARS when it's 1937?
20:52<TorA>Better yet, anyone know a way to fix that :\
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---Logclosed Tue Oct 02 00:00:22 2012