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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-10-02

---Logopened Tue Oct 02 00:00:22 2012
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03:21<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:29<KnogleAFK>morning
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03:34<NGC3982>What's NARS?
03:34<NGC3982>Oh, six hours late.
03:38<@Terkhen>north american rail set IIRC, a trains NewGRF
03:39<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
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03:49<andythenorth>blah blah blah
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07:10<NGC3982>Is there any NewGRF with giant train wagons?
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07:13<@planetmaker>yes. cets
07:13<@planetmaker>search the devzone
07:13<@planetmaker>I still got the feeling "giant" is a rubber term and I understand it MUCH differently from you
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07:16<NGC3982>Oh, i see.
07:17<NGC3982>Well, i was talking about capacity
07:17<NGC3982>But didn't mention it, for some reason.
07:17<NGC3982>:>
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08:24<Eddi|zuHause>well CETS has double-decker S-Bahn wagons :)
08:33<NGC3982>Ooh
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>the long-distance wagons have around the same capacity (per tile, not per wagon) as the original wagons, the local wagons have around 50% more, and the s-bahn wagons have around double capacity, the double decker wagons have additional capacity.
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08:52<Elukka>oberhümer hasn't drawn quite that far yet, has he? :P
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09:05<NGC3982>Elukka: Sounds nice.
09:05<NGC3982>Ill try it.
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: not really
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10:25<doki_pen_>is there a good place to learn openttd scripting for a programmer?
10:29<@planetmaker>here, tt-forums, dev.openttdcoop.org and of course the API documentation at noai.openttd.org and nogo.openttd.org
10:29<@planetmaker>and there's an admin port; it's somewhat documented in the docs shipped with openttd. there's a java library and a python library for it around
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10:30<@planetmaker>not exactly sure what you need / want, doki_pen_
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11:23<__ln__>http://mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/11350/xkcd-style-graphs
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11:29<andythenorth>michi_cc: PEBKAC is a nice acronym :)
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13:18<doki_pen_>planetmaker: thanks
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13:18<doki_pen_>got distracted by work
13:18<doki_pen_>i just want to mainly see what's possible. Is it possible to script monotonous tasks?
13:19<doki_pen_>for instance, upgrading from electric rail to monorail is a PITA
13:20<doki_pen_>here is what I do now: depot all trains. upgrade everything I can. go through every depot that didn't get upgraded and create a monorail version of the train, copying the old trains schedule(with ctrl-click). Sell old trains.
13:20<doki_pen_>don't know if there is an easier way
13:20<doki_pen_>and finally, convert all remaining depots
13:21<M1zera>hmm... I usualy see about 3-4 episodes of The Simpsons before I upgrade all trains
13:21<doki_pen_>haha, is that the trick?
13:22<Prof_Frink>doki_pen_: Yep, that's about standard.
13:22<M1zera>:-)
13:22<Prof_Frink>But I generally don't bother with monorail, and wait for maglev.
13:23<Prof_Frink>(I do tend to build a transmap standalone monorail line, just because I can)
13:23<doki_pen_>i just started playing a couple of weeks ago, I haven't played one long enough to get maglev yet
13:23<M1zera>I build monorail only as new tracks outside of my network.
13:23<doki_pen_>but my current one will probably last that long
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13:24<doki_pen_>how come when I try to find a server, most of them are incompatible?
13:24<doki_pen_>do i have to install some plugins manually?
13:29<M1zera>"Downloadable GRFs" in menu
13:30<M1zera>"Check online content"
13:30<M1zera>my bad
13:31<M1zera>I prefer playing solo, I usualy play one map for weeks... play for 15min, pause for hours to days unpause... :)
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13:38<@Alberth>building new tracks or manually rebuilding lines with the new track type is much more fun imho; also you often rethink the layout, and improve the network as well.
13:42<@planetmaker>doki_pen_, scripts are not intended as helpers for the player; thus their capabilities are also not designed for that
13:42<@planetmaker>scripts are either separate players or global game scripts
13:43<@planetmaker>upgrading to monorail is easy: depot all trains. mass-convert the whole map. build new depots; build new trains with shared orders with the old. about 10 minutes time
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13:53<dada__>"One of the great things about GOG is that many games run in DOS. Mac users can run these games using the Macintosh version of Dosbox or by using Boxer, another DOS emulator."
13:53<dada__>oops, wrong channel
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14:02<Wolf01>evenink
14:02<@Alberth>hi Wolf01, andythenorth
14:05<@peter1138>GOG: Games you can download from "abandonware" sites instead
14:06<__ln__>if you don't care about breaking the law.
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14:47<andythenorth>hmm
14:47<andythenorth>my autorefit poll is not going well
14:47<andythenorth>I was hoping for policy-based evidence making
14:48<FLHerne>andythenorth: The evidence doesn't suit your policy :P
14:48*FLHerne voted 'essential' :D
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14:49<andythenorth>I need different evidence
14:49*andythenorth considers a different poll
14:49<@Alberth>andythenorth: you can prove anything with statistics :p
14:49<andythenorth>"a tiny minority of respondents consider autorefit 'essential'"
14:50<andythenorth>or a new poll, just two answers... "autorefit: [ ] not needed [ ] I suck and am a bad person"
14:51<@planetmaker>[x] I suck and am a bad person ;-)
14:51<@planetmaker>(going to trigger the nuke in fallout3's megaton ;-) )
14:52<@Alberth>[x] never used autorefit
14:52<FLHerne>[x] Rely on it for almost everything, network would fall apart without it :P
14:52<M1zera>hm, i have played F3 many times and i have never blown Megaton up... Im just the good guy...
14:53<FLHerne>However, I also rely on template-replace, which is unstable, non-MP-safe, abandoned and has no chance of getting in trunk soon :-(
14:53<andythenorth>FLHerne: you can't possibly rely on it for almost everything
14:54<andythenorth>most newgrfs don't offer it
14:54<andythenorth>nor the default vehicles
14:54<FLHerne>andythenorth: The ones I use most do now :P
14:54<andythenorth>unless you have a *very* specific play style :P
14:54<@Alberth>andythenorth: what makes you think you need most newgrfs ?
14:54<andythenorth>point
14:55<FLHerne>UKRS2 and FISH2ish do, and those cover 80+% of my cargo movement :-)
14:55*FLHerne waits for autorefitting HEQS :P
14:56<FLHerne>Then I can get 90+% :D
14:56<andythenorth>impossible
14:56<andythenorth>[HEQS with autorefitting]
14:57<FLHerne>andythenorth: Other than the trams?
14:57<andythenorth>actually not impossible
14:58<andythenorth>but not acceptable
14:58<andythenorth>not acceptable ~= impossible
14:59<FLHerne>andythenorth: Besides the trams, what's different from any other RV set for that?
15:01<andythenorth>the mining trucks would be entirely, 100% fine
15:01<andythenorth>and the foundry transporters
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15:02<FLHerne>What would a foundry transporter autorefit to anyway? :P
15:02<FLHerne>Just separate the tram models and have done with it :D
15:02<FLHerne>Oh, and the crawlers :P
15:03<andythenorth>I'm not against having the trams in a separate grf
15:03<andythenorth>that's plausible
15:04<andythenorth>it's a bit of hassle, more repos, more readmes, more banananaas admin
15:05<FLHerne>What's wrong with as now?
15:05<FLHerne>You have a param anyway...
15:06<@planetmaker>I don't think there's need to split HEQS... it's not too big really
15:06<andythenorth>I find it kind of baffling to make a grf with some vehicles supporting autorefit and others not
15:06<FLHerne>andythenorth: I said before, there's no way you can get worse than default/eGRVTS-style vehicle spam. Don't bother about it :P
15:07<FLHerne>andythenorth: If you split the trams and crawlers by length, could you autorfit them?
15:07<andythenorth>FLHerne: 105 trams would be needed
15:07<andythenorth>hmm
15:07<andythenorth>could have a parameter to turn each one on / off
15:08<andythenorth>ho
15:08<frosch123>nml only supports 64 parameters
15:08<andythenorth>could make one grf per tram
15:08<andythenorth>that's quite nice
15:08<frosch123>though, you only need bools
15:08<andythenorth>one grf per vehicle = just add the vehicles you want
15:10<andythenorth>idea: remove cargo / body type graphics
15:10<andythenorth>everything is just a box truck / box tram
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15:10<andythenorth>solves a lot of the issues
15:11*andythenorth has another idea
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15:11<andythenorth>currently refitting to n trailers causes other trailers to be hidden
15:12<andythenorth>what if refit is '2 trailers, but only load 1'
15:12<andythenorth>then length never changes, graphics never change
15:17<FLHerne>andythenorth: But then there's no point :P
15:17<andythenorth>por quoi?
15:17<FLHerne>Why bother refitting to lower capacities, if there's no advantage?
15:18<andythenorth>why refit by length at all?
15:18<andythenorth>why not just use the longest?
15:18<FLHerne>I do it for trams to avoid wasting miles of road space, but that doesn't work if they don't change :P
15:18<FLHerne>Long ones look silly sometimes :P
15:18<frosch123>actually in most cases :p
15:19<andythenorth>that suggests trams are simply just too long
15:19<andythenorth>maybe there's an optimum length for them?
15:19*andythenorth proposes 1 length, and box-van graphics only
15:20<andythenorth>[or open trucks with tarpaulins]
15:20<andythenorth>is 70t about right?
15:20<FLHerne>andythenorth: Long ones are handy sometimes :-(
15:20<FLHerne>But short ones and medium ones are too :P
15:21<FLHerne>Just add them all, and make a long buy-menu :P
15:21<frosch123>andythenorth: solve the purchase list issue with sane retire dates
15:21<FLHerne>Perhaps you need a buy-menu-subcategory thing :P
15:21<andythenorth>proposed HEQS 2: remove crawlers, tractors etc (stupid anyway). Mining trucks are fine. Make trams one length (70t) and one set of graphics only
15:21<frosch123>there is no need to make more than 15 trams available at a single point in time
15:22<FLHerne>andythenorth: Noooo! :-(
15:22<frosch123>for current heqs there is always a clearly best tram
15:22<frosch123>the rest just need to retire
15:22<FLHerne>Then I wouldn't have crawlers, and short trams, and long trams :-(
15:22<andythenorth>FLHerne: but you will have autorefit
15:22<andythenorth>which you considered essentia
15:22<andythenorth>l
15:22<FLHerne>BOTH! :D
15:22<andythenorth>spec says no
15:23<FLHerne>andythenorth: Less tram overlap, separate the lengths
15:23<FLHerne>I don't mind the crawlers enormously
15:23<FLHerne>Keep them, but don't allow autorefit perhaps?
15:23<FLHerne>I only use them for ultra-specific roles anyway, so that's not so bad
15:23<andythenorth>all or nothing
15:24<FLHerne>andythenorth: That's silly :P
15:24<andythenorth>I'm not making a grf with 'some autorefit, but only if you scrutinise the readme'
15:24<andythenorth>it's crappy
15:24<FLHerne>andythenorth: Have crawlers disabled by default, with parameter?
15:25<andythenorth>sticking plaster, not a solution
15:25<frosch123>andythenorth: i think you get it wrong :p
15:25<frosch123>making all trams the same is pointless
15:25<frosch123>then you can as well make only one
15:25<FLHerne>Say that the crawlers are specially-built on site, for the exact purpose :P
15:25<andythenorth>frosch123 I am considering that option :D
15:25<andythenorth>there is always only one obvious best, right?
15:26<andythenorth>so just make one :P
15:26<frosch123>with your approach of making everything the same, yes
15:26<frosch123>that's why all or nothing is wrong
15:26<andythenorth>when playing GS I don't think it matters
15:26<andythenorth>GS is short
15:26<FLHerne>andythenorth: No, just withdraw the old models
15:26<andythenorth>all this model progression crap is over-rated
15:27<andythenorth>in GS MP we just use one train, and people get yelled at for choosing a different one
15:27<FLHerne>I don't see the point in having the first electric ones available by the time the 4th ones come out :P
15:27<FLHerne>andythenorth: That's non-typical ;-)
15:27*FLHerne wants realism and variety
15:28<@Alberth>FLHerne: andy is the wrong person for granting such wishes :)
15:28<FLHerne>The thing about model progression is that you need a real difference, not just a little bigger and faster
15:28*andythenorth digresses
15:28<FLHerne>FISH and HEQS don't do that enough :-(
15:28<andythenorth>it's because it can't be done
15:28<@Alberth>no auto-refit :p
15:28<andythenorth>what real difference would you have?
15:28<andythenorth>there are no road types or water types?
15:29<andythenorth>breakdowns are meaningless
15:29<andythenorth>so reliability is a moot point
15:29<andythenorth>nobody cares about costs
15:29<andythenorth>the only factors are capacity and speed
15:29<frosch123>andythenorth: take a look at nuts
15:29*Alberth thinks cargo is the main form of differences
15:29<FLHerne>andythenorth: Can ships go faster in different seasons? :-)
15:30<andythenorth>they could vary speed by date yes
15:30<frosch123>make a distinction between fast vehicles, high capacity and similiar
15:30<frosch123>don't allow all combinations
15:30<FLHerne>Then as they get more powerful, they'll be less affected by weather :D
15:30<andythenorth>ships don't have power
15:30<andythenorth>and I can't be bothered to fake that
15:30<andythenorth>it's hard to explain in one line in the buy menu
15:30<frosch123>they have loading times
15:30<andythenorth>yes
15:31<frosch123>and speed
15:31<FLHerne>Just make the newer ones less affected by date :P
15:31<frosch123>and capacity
15:31<andythenorth>meh
15:31<andythenorth>it sounds complicated and pointless to me
15:31*FLHerne likes complicated gameplay ;-)
15:31<FLHerne>Pointlessness is subjective :P
15:31<andythenorth>well yes
15:31<andythenorth>:P
15:31<frosch123>andythenorth: so, let's just say: take the tram and ship graphics, make every tram only available in a single length configuration
15:32<frosch123>and randomise all other stats
15:32<andythenorth>I've considered random stats before :)
15:32<frosch123>like power, length, capacity per wagon, ...
15:32*FLHerne doesn't get it :P
15:32<@Alberth>Zuu_: I don't understand the phrase "More Complex Orders" in STR_SHIPS_3_4_1
15:33<@Alberth>are there complex orders before?
15:33-!-Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:33<andythenorth>frosch123: randomise the ships stats too? :D
15:33<frosch123>yup
15:33<frosch123>capacity, speed and loading time
15:33-!-Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd
15:34<Zuu_>Alberth: Let me dig it up
15:34<@Alberth>frosch123 likes surprises in his game
15:34<frosch123>though maybe you want to put the capacity in relation with the graphics size
15:34<andythenorth>maybe :P
15:34<frosch123>Alberth: different vehicles in each game would be awesome
15:34<andythenorth>frosch123: randomise per model type, or per vehicle instance?
15:34<frosch123>that's why i wonder why so few people play without breakdowns
15:35<frosch123>currently they are the only means to have some randomness in games
15:35*andythenorth likes breakdowns
15:35<frosch123>and then others even want to get rid of random intro dates :s
15:35<@Alberth>Zuu_: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1758/ some random text nearby
15:35<Zuu_>Alberth: Here it says "Ships - Complex Orders"
15:35<@Alberth>So what's 'Complex' about?
15:36<andythenorth>FLHerne: can you explain how you would have more complications in a [realistic] ship set?
15:36<Zuu_>It is a title for the entire 3_4_* part
15:36<andythenorth>there are gaps in FISH so this is a genuine question
15:36<FLHerne>andythenorth: Add seasonal weather, loading speeds, cargo aging (massive difference for fish and livestock, for example)
15:36<Zuu_>Maybe complex is a too strong word, but it refers to the fact that full load orders are used I think.
15:37<FLHerne>Faster in one direction would be nice, but impossibel?
15:37<Zuu_>I wonder though, where did you get your english.txt?
15:37<andythenorth>FLHerne: seasonal weather is a creative but insane idea
15:37<andythenorth>we already discussed prevailing winds etc
15:37<andythenorth>and it was ruled out as pointless, fragile insane :)
15:37<@Alberth>Zuu_: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/gs-tutorial/repository/entry/lang/english.txt#L73 says otherwise
15:38<andythenorth>I like the seasonal idea though
15:38<FLHerne>Also add faster, smaller ones (slightly more difference in speed than as now)
15:38<andythenorth>faster smaller whats?
15:38<FLHerne>Boats
15:38*FLHerne is wandering again :P
15:39<Zuu_>Alberth: I'm sorry, but it appears that I haven't commited the last version there.
15:39<andythenorth>faster smaller boats - speed, capacity suggestions?
15:39<FLHerne>The small ones could use a couple more knots to differentiate ;-)
15:39<FLHerne>I mean the 70tonish ones
15:39<@Alberth>Zuu_: ah, that explains the difference :)
15:39<Zuu_>As you see in the commit log, it only have version 8.
15:39<andythenorth>so a 70t, 50mph hovercraft for example?
15:39-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6A46A.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
15:39<FLHerne>Not quite that (you have one already, right?)
15:40<frosch123>just turn the utility vessel into a speedboat :)
15:40<FLHerne>Perhaps have some 25knot boats?
15:40<andythenorth>the LCAC for example? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Craft_Air_Cushion
15:40<FLHerne>High cost, lowish capacity
15:40<@Alberth>Zuu_: I don't know the current version number, I just took 'tip'
15:40<andythenorth>I am waiting for render paints on the hovercraft, there are two renders
15:40<Zuu_>Ok, I've pushed the changes now.
15:40<FLHerne>Those big hovers look nice
15:40<Zuu_>Sorry for the trouble I've caused you.
15:41<andythenorth>I've had the renders for ~2 years ;)
15:41<@Alberth>ok, let's see how much test you broke :)
15:41<andythenorth>loading speeds....what do you think they are set to currently?
15:41<FLHerne>But yes, I'd like something to carry a sane amount of cargo (not a porcupine) a little faster :-)
15:42<FLHerne>andythenorth: Oh, did you do that already? :P
15:42*FLHerne hasn't had new FISH for too long :P
15:42<andythenorth>there is not that much variation tbh, RHS of this table http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Craft_Air_Cushion
15:42<andythenorth>oops wrong link
15:42<andythenorth>http://www.tt-foundry.com/sets/FISH/list_all_vehicles
15:43<Zuu_>Alberth: Its basically all changes by Pingaware + some changes by me. Version 8 added the whole road chapter, so I think there are quite a few text changes in version 9 regarding that chapter. For the other chapters, the number of changes should be lower.
15:43<frosch123>andythenorth: no hoovercraft, just hydrofoil
15:43<andythenorth>the point being, you have no idea in game of what loading speeds are
15:43<andythenorth>so meh to those
15:43<andythenorth>frosch123: only hydrofoil, rm all other ship types? :)
15:44<@Alberth>Zuu_: I'll have a look; thanks for the update
15:44<Zuu_>For the record, I'm not convinced that the whole chapter name should be included in the sub section heading.
15:44<FLHerne>andythenorth: Subtle differences are nice too :-)
15:44<andythenorth>you want I show the loading speed in the buy menu?
15:45<FLHerne>Yup :D
15:45<andythenorth>openttd should do it, but I don't mind making up for defects :P
15:45<FLHerne>Show *everything* in the buy menu :P
15:45<andythenorth>we did invent an improved buy menu
15:45<andythenorth>but we didn't code it :)
15:46-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.173.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:46<FLHerne>What's the new thing in latest nightly for FISH2?
15:46*FLHerne is stuck a few hundred revisions back :P
15:47<@Alberth>Zuu_: for now, I am just translating. I have not played it yet
15:48*Alberth pushes and merges FLHerne unstuck
15:49<andythenorth>FLHerne: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository
15:51*FLHerne hasn't spotted it yet :P
15:51<FLHerne>Which way round are those things about ocean/river speed?
15:51-!-Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd
15:52<andythenorth>some river ships were slower on sea
15:52<andythenorth>this makes them entirely pointless
15:52<andythenorth>so I removed that
15:52<FLHerne>:-(
15:52<FLHerne>I liked that :P
15:52<FLHerne>More difference
15:52<FLHerne>Difference is goos
15:52<andythenorth>no less difference
15:52<Supercheese>river ships are still faster on rivers
15:52<andythenorth>yes
15:53<Supercheese>than ocean ships
15:53<FLHerne>SO what's the change?
15:53<andythenorth>?
15:53<andythenorth>what's the question? :)
15:53<FLHerne>If river ships remain faster on rivers, how did you remove the slowness?
15:54<andythenorth>I stopped them being slow
15:54<Supercheese>Riverships' river speeds: unchanged
15:54<FLHerne>But then how can be faster on rivers if they're not slower on the sea?
15:54<Supercheese>Riverships' ocean speeds: no longer slow
15:54<andythenorth>what he said ;)
15:54<Supercheese>:D
15:54<FLHerne>But then I can use river ships on the ocean :-(
15:54<andythenorth>yes
15:54<FLHerne>Whic is silly :P
15:55<andythenorth>no
15:55<Supercheese>why?
15:55*FLHerne doesn't want to :-(
15:55<Supercheese>then... don't
15:55<Pinkbeast>I think the rationale is that ocean ships are too big for rivers, not that river ships are not ocean-going?
15:55<Supercheese>the river ships are still inferior to ocean ships on the ocean
15:55<FLHerne>But now I'm not forced not to, so I have to if it's better :-(
15:55<andythenorth>eh?
15:55<andythenorth>previously here's what happened:
15:55<Pinkbeast>(Especially since the "ocean" in OTTD is lakes and coastal areas at best)
15:55<Supercheese>it's not better as I said
15:55<andythenorth>- river ships were slower on river than ocean ships
15:56<andythenorth>- river ships were slower on ocean than river ships
15:56<andythenorth>conclusion: don't use river ships, ever
15:56<andythenorth>I could have rm-ed them if that would have been better
15:56<Pinkbeast>Errr I think point 2 is confused
15:56<FLHerne>The second one doesn't make sense :P
15:56<andythenorth>oops
15:56<andythenorth>- river ships were slower on ocean than ocean ships
15:56<Supercheese>we know whatcha meant
15:57<FLHerne>So make river ships very slow on ocean, and ocean ships infinitely slow in rivers? :P
15:57<andythenorth>no because that's just crap and annoying
15:57*FLHerne would like big tankers to be 0knots on rivers :P
15:57<andythenorth>already ships are significantly crippled in game
15:57-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER]
15:57<FLHerne>andythenorth: No, it's fun and adds variety :-)
15:57<Supercheese>I believe the source is available
15:57<andythenorth>it's not fun to have ships in the buy menu you don't use
15:58<andythenorth>it isn't variety, it's cruft
15:58<Supercheese>although andy does have a... unique scheme to build FISH
15:58<FLHerne>And would stop those huge tankers glitching so much :P
15:58<Supercheese>;)
15:58<@peter1138>giant map with loads of water
15:58<FLHerne>andythenorth: Use them on rivers :P
15:58<@peter1138>== good for ships
15:58<FLHerne>And the ocean ones on oceans :P
15:58<andythenorth>FLHerne: why? they make less money
15:58<Supercheese>you can still likely figure the source out and edit it yourself
15:58<andythenorth>why would you choose to do that?
15:58<FLHerne>andythenorth: So? Money in OTTD isn't short usually
15:59<FLHerne>I do that because I find it interesting, not because it makes profit :-)
15:59<andythenorth>but that's not a game
15:59<andythenorth>that's a train set
15:59<andythenorth>I'm not making a train set
15:59<andythenorth>I'm making a game ;)
15:59<FLHerne>andythenorth: It's still a game, just not one about making profit :P
16:00<andythenorth>FLHerne: checkout the repo
16:00<andythenorth>edit src/FISH.cfg
16:00<andythenorth>it's just a text file
16:00<FLHerne>For me, it's about being able to transport everything on the map without massive backlogs or looking unrealistic :-)
16:00<andythenorth>set sea_capable = False for river ships
16:00<FLHerne>andythenorth: Would break MP though? :P
16:00<andythenorth>ys
16:00<FLHerne>Add a parameter :P
16:00<andythenorth>or distribute your own version
16:01<andythenorth>no
16:01<FLHerne>'river ships sea-capable' [yes|no] :-)
16:01<andythenorth>parameters are for weak-minded people who can't make choices
16:01<andythenorth>design involves choices
16:01<FLHerne>No, they're for people who know that users will have differing wishes :P
16:01<andythenorth>No, that's what the GPL is for
16:02<FLHerne>If I want one thing, and someone else wants another, add both :P
16:02<Pinkbeast>I do think there's a lot to be said for making shipping more viable
16:02<FLHerne>But having two grfs on BaNaNaS identical but for a minor speed difference would be silly :P
16:03<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: It's very viable already :-)
16:03<andythenorth>you can't win GS challenges with ships
16:03<andythenorth>too slow
16:03*FLHerne has about 30% of all cargo on ships :-)
16:03<FLHerne>andythenorth: GS challenges are stupid :P
16:03<andythenorth>hmm
16:03<andythenorth>nope
16:03<andythenorth>empirically, you are wrong
16:03<FLHerne>They enforce arbitrary goals that stop you from having fun :-(
16:03<Supercheese>Clearly there is a difference of opinion here
16:03<Supercheese>to each their own playstyle
16:04<FLHerne>I want to faff around with inefficient messes, not simply transport x pigs per annum :P
16:04<andythenorth>you know a funny thing I found
16:04<andythenorth>there's a man who is refusing to buy this new lego train http://www.flickr.com/photos/gambort/8037440254/
16:04<andythenorth>because the windows are black, and on the real one they are dark grey
16:04<andythenorth>and he is really very upset about it
16:04<andythenorth>on the internet
16:05<andythenorth>it has actually, as far as I can tell, ruined his week
16:05<andythenorth>despite that nobody knew this train existed until Sunday
16:05<FLHerne>It's LEGO! It's made of ANGULAR BLOCKS!
16:05<andythenorth>and it's Lego and can be rebuilt
16:05*FLHerne has lots of lego :-)
16:06<andythenorth>also some of the 'fans' are very distressed by the included minifigs
16:06-!-KritiK [~Maxim@176.14.56.193] has joined #openttd
16:07<andythenorth>so what I conclude is: the internet is full of people who are wrong
16:07<FLHerne>andythenorth: Seen XKCD on that?
16:07<andythenorth>yes ;)
16:07<andythenorth>also wtf shall I do about HEQS?
16:07<Supercheese>you mean autorefit?
16:08<andythenorth>no more generally
16:08<FLHerne>andythenorth: It's mostly fine :-)
16:08<andythenorth>it already has vehicles in different sizes, capacities, speeds etc
16:08<andythenorth>frosch123: so your suggestion might be? ^
16:08<Supercheese>HEQS is great, why does it need changes?
16:09<FLHerne>Fix tram withdrawal dates, split trams by capacity, make all but crawlers autorefit. Do *something* with the rail GmundMog - rm if necessary :P
16:09<Supercheese>there was an interesting suggestion of allowing autorefit in general but disallowing it with certain cargo subtype combinations
16:09<Supercheese>not sure how that would work, callback wizardry likely
16:10<andythenorth>that's all broken currently
16:10<andythenorth>allows the creation of invalid orders
16:10<FLHerne>Invalid orders aren't a problem
16:10<andythenorth>yes they are
16:10<FLHerne>They're only a problem if they're not preventable by common sense and/or RTM
16:10<andythenorth>for the same reason as a broken button is a problem
16:10<andythenorth>let's break some buttons :)
16:11<andythenorth>actually, let's make orders non-determinstic
16:11<FLHerne>It should be obvious that refitting from coal to milk won't work :P
16:11<andythenorth>you set 'goto harpington'
16:11<Supercheese>oy vey, here we go again
16:11<andythenorth>but actually openttd decides 'goto shiningtown'
16:11<andythenorth>it's not just analagous, it's identical
16:11<andythenorth>it should be obvious that sometimes the game decides to send your vehicle to a different station
16:12<andythenorth>we could have a dice roll
16:12<andythenorth>in fact, we could actually have an enormous animated dice
16:12<andythenorth>every time a vehicle moves to next order in list
16:12<andythenorth>in the middle of the screen, with sound effects
16:12<andythenorth>you have to click to get a 6
16:12<andythenorth>if you don't get a 6, random order happens
16:13<FLHerne>andythenorth: No, autorefit should be the same every time :P
16:13<FLHerne>If it isn't you broke it :P
16:13<andythenorth>e?
16:13<FLHerne>That's assuming the same cargoes :P
16:13<andythenorth>do you understand that autorefit is non-determinstic?
16:13<FLHerne>You mean the auto-load-whatever bit?
16:14<Supercheese>I'm referring to autorefit with fixed cargos specified
16:14<Supercheese>not autorefit to whatever is available
16:14<Supercheese>I can see how autorefit to whatever is problematic
16:14<FLHerne>The refit-at-station bit is generally deterministic :P
16:14<FLHerne>I use the other one a lot though :-)
16:14<Supercheese>yeah, I suppose we need to definitively say that autorefit /= refit-at-station
16:15<Supercheese>despite them being similar in the code
16:15<Supercheese>and drop-down menu
16:16<andythenorth>they are identical for newgrf
16:16<Supercheese>yep, but conversational issues may arise
16:16<Supercheese>"do you mean fixed-autorefit or autorefit-to-whatever?"
16:16<Supercheese>:S
16:16<andythenorth>it's irrelevant tbh
16:16<Supercheese>w.r.t. coding issues yes
16:16<andythenorth>I see your point :)
16:17<FLHerne>One is predictable by the user, the other isn't :-)
16:17<andythenorth>no
16:17<andythenorth>neither are predictable by user
16:17<FLHerne>With the former, you know which cargoes can be on the train
16:18-!-roadt [~roadt@60.168.82.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:18<andythenorth>but you don't know if the newgrf will allow the refit
16:19<FLHerne>andythenorth: It's called a manual :P
16:20<FLHerne>Or common sense, if the developer is sane :-)
16:20<andythenorth>so you can happily accept that two people might want different things in a newgrf (i.e. you propose parameters), but you think there's a single shared common sense?
16:21<FLHerne>Again, manuals :P
16:21<FLHerne>Or add parameters for refitting too, but that might be overkill ;-)
16:21<andythenorth>yes, I definitely read the manual for my computer when I learned how to use it
16:21<andythenorth>and for my phone
16:21<andythenorth>and for Quake
16:21<andythenorth>and for Dope Wars
16:21<FLHerne>In that case, trial-and-error will do :P#
16:21<andythenorth>and I certainly always read the manual before playing Mario Kart
16:22<andythenorth>which grf should you read the manual for?
16:22<andythenorth>as you don't even know what grf the vehicle belongs to
16:22<FLHerne>Of course you do :P
16:23<Supercheese>I fully expect people to read either the main forum thread of the readme for my grfs; their contents are roughly the same
16:23<FLHerne>Who doesn't know which grf their vehicles are from?
16:23<Supercheese>or the readme*
16:23*andythenorth expects nobody to read anything
16:23<andythenorth>there are about 25k active downloaders of grfs on bananas at my guess
16:23<FLHerne>andythenorth: That's silly
16:24<andythenorth>most of those 25k probably cycle through the game quite fast
16:24<FLHerne>Just ignore people who can't be bothered to either read or trial-and-error :P
16:24<andythenorth>and most have no idea tt-forums etc exists
16:24<andythenorth>I don't get the trial-and-error point
16:24<andythenorth>how does that work?
16:24<FLHerne>Ingame readme-viewer now ;-)
16:24<andythenorth>readme for which grf though?
16:24<andythenorth>we suspect that a majority of players simply load all grfs from banananas
16:25<FLHerne>andythenorth: Try refitting x to y -> does that work? -> Do/don't do that again ;-)
16:25<andythenorth>how do you know if it works?
16:25<andythenorth>there's zero feedback
16:25<FLHerne>andythenorth: That's simply not true :P
16:25<andythenorth>you have to watch the orders
16:25<FLHerne>andythenorth: If it fills up with cargo, it works :-)
16:25<andythenorth>orders / refit /s
16:25<FLHerne>If it fills up with a different cargo, it doesn't :P
16:26<andythenorth>ok, so do you have all the info windows open for all vehicles all the time?
16:26<andythenorth>how big is your screen? :o
16:26<FLHerne>If I were experimenting to see which refits worked, I'd do it in an organised manner :P
16:27<FLHerne>As in, one refit at a time, check if it works, do it again :-)
16:27<andythenorth>that is a quick way to lose in a GS game :o
16:27<FLHerne>I'd rather just read the readme though ;-)
16:27<andythenorth>what about when you share orders between different vehicle types?
16:27<FLHerne>Once you know, it's no longer necessary to do it a second time :P
16:28<Supercheese>shared orders between different vehicle types? Is that... legal?
16:28<FLHerne>andythenorth: Make sure that both vehicle types support the cargoes you're using?
16:28<FLHerne>Supercheese: Of course :-)
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16:28<Supercheese>Hmm, never done that, or at least not enough that I recall
16:28<FLHerne>I really don't see the big deal here
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16:28<Supercheese>seems like it could lead to problems
16:29<andythenorth>Supercheese: it's common
16:29*Supercheese prefers uniformity
16:29<andythenorth>shared orders between different types is entirely supported, bar autorefit
16:29<Supercheese>but to each their own
16:29<andythenorth>Supercheese: what about when you're upgrading?
16:30<andythenorth>you send them all vehicles with shared orders to depot, sell them, then build new ones?
16:30<FLHerne>andythenorth; It's supported with autorefit too :-)
16:30<Supercheese>autoreplace within groups
16:30<Supercheese>s'what I most often do, or global autoreplace
16:30<andythenorth>so no shared orders?
16:31<FLHerne>Supercheese: You still get mixed groups while doing that :P
16:31<Supercheese>yes, but not on purpose :P
16:31<FLHerne>s/groups/order groups/
16:31<Supercheese>I use shared orders all over the place, but each vehicle is identical
16:31<FLHerne>How is it less supported by autorefit than anything else?
16:31<Supercheese>but I digress
16:32<Supercheese>and am not explaining things well either :P
16:32<FLHerne>When doing it normally, you have to check both carry the same cargoes where relevant; autorefit is the same but you have to check they can both be autorefitted appropriately too
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16:37<Eddi|zuHause>uhoh... i'm afraid to read the backlog with so much andythenorth in it... :)
16:37<andythenorth>ho ho
16:37<andythenorth>you didn't miss anything
16:37<Supercheese>trolololo
16:37<andythenorth>can I summarise?
16:37<andythenorth>[....]
16:38<andythenorth>you probably had a better time doing whatever you were doing ;)
16:38<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: andy wants to move the rail vehicles from heqs to fish or so
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds totally like something andythenorth would do :p
16:39<andythenorth>ho
16:39<andythenorth>what a nice idea :)
16:39<frosch123>:p
16:39<andythenorth>frosch123: I'll make sure I credit you with that
16:39<andythenorth>twice
16:40<frosch123>people already hate me enough :)
16:41<Supercheese>hmm the OTTD commit rss appears to have died for me
16:42<frosch123>did it run via cia?
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: CIA is dead
16:42<Supercheese>yeah
16:42<Supercheese>ah
16:42<Supercheese>that would do it
16:42<Supercheese>what happen? some one set up it the bomb?
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>dead as in won't ever come back alive
16:42<andythenorth>frosch123: I strongly suspect nobody hates you - but nvm :)
16:43<frosch123>http://cia.vc/ <- they still hope
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: damn, now i have some bad 8-bit sound in my head :p
16:43<frosch123>http://twitter.com/OpenTTDSVN <- Supercheese: if you want to be a hip kid
16:43<Supercheese>oooh
16:43<Supercheese>shiny
16:44<frosch123>no idea who runs it :)
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, vcs.openttd.org has a big "rss feed" button at the bottom
16:45<frosch123>also in the address bar :p
16:46<frosch123>"Rekuto, ein bisschen wie Sikaku" <- i love such summaries
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>that is totally descriptive
16:49<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: wrt autorefit, the evidence from the forum poll doesn't fit my hypothesis :(
16:49<andythenorth>what kind of poll is that? :P
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you don't have the cognitive dissonance of a professional politician yet
16:50<andythenorth>I am capable of that kind of delusion
16:50<andythenorth>I just choose not to do it :P
16:52<andythenorth>here's an idea
16:52<andythenorth>trigger a message if an autorefit isn't allowed
16:52<FLHerne>andythenorth: Your hypothesis was misaligned with reality :D
16:52<andythenorth>currently fails silently
16:52<FLHerne>andythenorth: That would fix it :-)
16:52<FLHerne>For explicit instructions, anyway
16:53<andythenorth>frosch123 option to fail cb 15E, but with a string in return value?
16:54<andythenorth>doesn't fix the subtypes mess, but puts a plaster over autorefit
16:54<frosch123>where would the text be shown?
16:56<andythenorth>one of those red error boxes
16:56<andythenorth>similar to trying to route an articulated rv to a drive-in stop
16:56<andythenorth>hmm
16:56<andythenorth>there is no error when trying to route an articulated rv to a drive-in stop :P
16:57<Supercheese>isn't there?
16:57<andythenorth>my mistake - bus vs truck stop
16:57<frosch123>andythenorth: autorefit happens in stations without user interaction
16:57<andythenorth>so trigger the error then too ;)
16:57<frosch123>you could issue news item, like for failed autoreplace
16:57<andythenorth>yes
16:57<frosch123>but i think that might be annoying
16:57<andythenorth>or lost vehicle
16:58<andythenorth>more or less annoying than invalid orders? :)
16:58<frosch123>what kind of invalid orders?
16:58<andythenorth>orders that can't be fulfilled
16:58<frosch123>like?
16:59<andythenorth>refit to A from B, but cb 15E doesn't allow it
16:59<frosch123>also in case of "refit to available"?
17:00<andythenorth>how does "refit to available" handle cb 15E result?
17:00<andythenorth>presumably sanely?
17:00<frosch123>it restricts the refit options i hope
17:00<andythenorth>the docs on refitting at stations maybe could be expanded
17:00<andythenorth>if I understood how it worked, I'd add to them
17:00<andythenorth>I refer to all use of cb15E as 'autorefit'
17:00<andythenorth>whether it's explicit or 'refit available'
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17:01<andythenorth>maybe I'm just confused about how it works, and all is well? o_O
17:01<frosch123>well, for explicit refit to specifc cargo, a newsitem might make sense
17:02<Supercheese>Hmm, some inflation-related fixing happening in recent commits?
17:02<frosch123>yes
17:02<frosch123>something broken?
17:02<Supercheese>no, just glad to see some work on that
17:03<Supercheese>since the general response has been "turn inflation off" for quite some time
17:03<frosch123>then you misunderstood what has been changed :p
17:03<Yexo>that's still the general response :)
17:03<Yexo>the only thing that was fixed was an overflow causing negative prices
17:03<Supercheese>oh hmm
17:03<Supercheese>thought I saw a reference to MAX_INFLACTION
17:03<Supercheese>typo
17:03<Supercheese>derp
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17:04<Supercheese>INFLATION*
17:04<Supercheese>guess that's been around already?
17:04*Supercheese hasn't really looked at the code
17:06<andythenorth>randomise all the things
17:07<andythenorth>randomise inflation!
17:07<andythenorth>real life does it
17:08<andythenorth>frosch123: do you seriously want randomised vehicle properties per game?
17:08<andythenorth>I have seriously considered it before
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17:09<frosch123>it likely depends on how much they are randomised
17:09<frosch123>it should not be silly
17:10<frosch123>i.e. capacity needs to have some relation to sprite size, and should not be randomised by factor 10
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17:10<frosch123>but some randomness would be nice
17:11<frosch123>per-model randomness, not per-vehicle :)
17:11<andythenorth>cost and running cost are obvious candidates
17:11<andythenorth>reliability the game already does
17:12<andythenorth>capacity...interesting :P
17:12<andythenorth>speed - maybe
17:12<andythenorth>power - maybe
17:12<andythenorth>cb36 misses model life :P
17:12<andythenorth>probably for good reasons
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17:14<andythenorth>I could add it to FISH 2 and test it
17:14<frosch123>remains the question how to randomise :p
17:14<andythenorth>how much randomisation? vary 25% capacity either way?
17:14<frosch123>via parameter?
17:14<andythenorth>parameter for on / off
17:14<frosch123>well, you need some random number :p
17:14<frosch123>currently user would have to set one via parameters
17:14<frosch123>e.g. 4
17:15<andythenorth>there's no random bits available in buy menu?
17:15<frosch123>nope
17:15<andythenorth>ugh
17:15<andythenorth>that makes it harder :)
17:15<frosch123>randomb bits are always per vehicle
17:15<frosch123>not per model
17:15<andythenorth>get something off the map?
17:15<andythenorth>number of towns :P
17:16<andythenorth>population of first town
17:16<andythenorth>probably not in scope
17:16<frosch123>you can use the company colour :p
17:16<andythenorth>he
17:17<andythenorth>so each company colour would provide a different schema for randomising :P
17:17<andythenorth>so if I write an nml random switch in buy menu chain, does it just fail?
17:17<andythenorth>or is it always default result or such?
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17:18<frosch123>i think var43 is your best choice for now
17:18<frosch123>it's available in purchase list as well
17:18<frosch123>just, it changes when you switch colours
17:18<frosch123>(i would not mind ifferent stats for different conpanies)
17:18<andythenorth>that's plausible
17:19*andythenorth likes this idea
17:19<andythenorth>it is silly, which is nice
17:20*andythenorth had better sleep
17:20<andythenorth>bye
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17:21<frosch123>capacity changes on company colour likely desync though :p
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17:24<frosch123>night
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17:41<@Terkhen>good night
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17:55<Wolf01>'night all
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20:25<Kitty>you know that point where you forgot to hit pause, and went to sleep and then 8 hours later you have over 500 million in the bank, all your planes have crashed and that the towns have all merged?
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21:37<cockroach>hey. i'm using openttd 1.2.2 (also tried with 1.2.1) and it seems my autoreplace option is missing. was it moved somewhere else, is there something fishy with my installation or could this be a side-effect of some newgrf?
21:37<Supercheese>autoreplace is from the vehicle list
21:37<Supercheese>you tried there, yes?
21:38<cockroach>yes
21:38<cockroach>as shown on http://wiki.openttd.org/Replace_vehicles
21:38<Supercheese>Manage List --> Replace Vehicles
21:38<Supercheese>yeah
21:38<cockroach>the other two options are there
21:38<Supercheese>have you tried selecting different groups?
21:38<cockroach>indeed i have, didn't help
21:40<cockroach>if i start a new game without any addons that option is still missing
21:42<cockroach>(which may make sense since there are no replacement vehicles at the beginning)
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22:12<shanne>hallo from whwre i can ownlod openttd for nexu 7? p,ease
22:13<shanne>someone
22:14<Jake>Nexus 7, you mean?
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---Logclosed Wed Oct 03 00:00:24 2012