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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-10-05

---Logopened Fri Oct 05 00:00:27 2012
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02:00<__ln__>huomenta
02:10<@Terkhen>good morning
02:11<@Terkhen>SgtGeneralCase: base sets and NewGRFs should not be able to crash OpenTTD so when they do, is is a bug in OpenTTD
02:12<@Terkhen>so yes, a bug report would be appreciated :)
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03:06<@planetmaker>moin
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03:57<@Alberth>moin
03:58<@Terkhen>hi planetmaker and Alberth
03:58<@Alberth>hi Terkhen
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04:00<NGC3982>Morning.
04:06<@Alberth>o/
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07:13<NGC3982>Guys, i think i need help
07:13<NGC3982>Ive been trying to understand entry-exit for a while now, but i simply don't get it
07:13<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/yzy86.png
07:13<NGC3982>Here is what ive got.
07:14<NGC3982>Two trains occupy the rails. I want the train to go to the "unreserved" rails if the station is busy with the other train.
07:14<NGC3982>And i can't seem to work it out :/
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>the pathfinder can only go through dead end rails if they end in a depot
07:15<NGC3982>Oh, ok
07:15<NGC3982>Or a station?
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>a station only if it is in the order list
07:15<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>you should read up on "overflow depots" anyway
07:17<NGC3982>I see, i found a entry i think i can use. Thanks
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07:26<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: with dead-end rails in order to turn around there, the pathfinder would need to know how long the train is, and not consider any sidings shorter than the train length, which is problematic to implement. that is why it is restricted to depots, where we know that all trains fit in.
07:30<NGC3982>Oh, ok
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11:17<Eddi|zuHause>ok, that's definitely an ending of maniac mansion that i never had before
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11:42<@Alberth>did you manage to find a winning combination?
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11:44-!-planetmaker is "Ingo von Borstel" on #openttd #debian-next +#openDune #debian.de #oftc #debian @+#openttdcoop @+#openttdcoop.stable #openttdcoop.devzone +#openttd.dev @+#wwottdgd @+#openttdcoop.dev @#openttdcoop.nightly @+#coopetition
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12:02<andythenorth>lo
12:03<andythenorth>everything is broken, the sky is falling
12:03<andythenorth>oops
12:03<andythenorth>wrong channel
12:05<NGC3982>Or so it seems.
12:07<__ln__>the sky is falling and you would have left us in the dark about it?!
12:10<NGC3982>I guess this channel doesn't need godly truths.
12:10*NGC3982 plays OpeTTD on a train
12:11<NGC3982>Is this Trainception?
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12:13*NGC3982 should use the pseuodym Maglev DiCaprio more often.
12:14<andythenorth>is it an MP GS kind of day?
12:14<andythenorth>frosch123: planetmaker
12:14<andythenorth>?
12:14<andythenorth>Zuu & I lost horribly on our last challenge :)
12:14<frosch123>not for me
12:15<frosch123>unless we do it just now
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12:15<frosch123>and it only lasts one hour :)
12:16<andythenorth>nah
12:16<andythenorth>bad timing ;)
12:16<FLHerne>andythenorth: I hate GS, but wouldn't mind an MP CDist :P
12:18<@planetmaker>How can you say "hate GS"? That's like "Hate NewGRF".
12:19<andythenorth>he's just odd
12:19<@planetmaker>or "hate patches" :D
12:19<andythenorth>I hate sensible stuff
12:19<andythenorth>like bad UI
12:19<andythenorth>not whole classes of things with no value judgement attached
12:19<FLHerne>planetmaker: Correction: I hate the kind of GS andy plays :P
12:19<andythenorth>although I do hate all onions
12:19<@planetmaker>*nom*
12:19<@planetmaker>onion cake... yummi
12:20<FLHerne>That cargo-required-for-town-growth one is quite nice :-)
12:20<andythenorth>meh to that
12:20<andythenorth>is there a target town size?
12:20<FLHerne>I don't think so, why would you want one?
12:20<@planetmaker>not yet, I think
12:21<FLHerne>Targets just force you to do stuff at the expense of having fun ;-)
12:21<@planetmaker>define a game end by town size instead of time
12:21<andythenorth>FLHerne: your argument is valid but not convincing
12:21<@planetmaker>targets make it fun :-)
12:21<andythenorth>I follow your chain of reasoning and it makes entire sense
12:21<andythenorth>but I don't accept your premise
12:21<@planetmaker>give the game a purpose if you're in for just a bit of playing
12:22<@Alberth>planetmaker: target town size ∞ ?
12:22<@planetmaker>:-)
12:22<@planetmaker>that's default :-P
12:22<FLHerne>andythenorth: My idea of fun is 'build an inefficient but somewhat realistic network, with lots of connecting services and tiny branch lines'
12:22<andythenorth>[shrug]
12:22<andythenorth>ok
12:23<andythenorth>no argument
12:23<FLHerne>Being forced to transport x cargo or make x profit would be boring :-(
12:23<andythenorth>[shrug]
12:23<andythenorth>ok
12:23<andythenorth>no argument
12:23*FLHerne agrees to disagree :P
12:23<@planetmaker>Both is an equally valid goal :-)
12:24<FLHerne>andythenorth: Can't you just set yourself a goal in your head? :P
12:25<@planetmaker>that's not the same, FLHerne
12:26<andythenorth>I can do it
12:26<andythenorth>I choose not to
12:26<FLHerne>planetmaker: Have a GS that just prints all the statistics, and let the user decide what goals they feel like setting :-)
12:26<FLHerne>andythenorth: Fair enough :P
12:27<andythenorth>what's the most popular game in the world?
12:27<FLHerne>Dunno. If you count derivatives, Quake might be
12:27<andythenorth>patience
12:27<FLHerne>Or some of the MMORPGs
12:27<andythenorth>specifically the patience that ships by default with MS Windows
12:27*FLHerne automatically assumes 'computers' on IRC :P
12:28<FLHerne>andythenorth: Is it really? Sounds unlkely...
12:28<andythenorth>http://kotaku.com/5672324/the-story-of-the-biggest-computer-game-of-all-time
12:29<@planetmaker>I think it's highly likely
12:29*FLHerne has spent ages playing a FOSS version of Minesweeper :-)
12:29*planetmaker also has played both uncounted times
12:29<@planetmaker>heck even in windows 2.7 days
12:30<andythenorth>if you add in all patience (solitaire) variants, including those played with real cards
12:30<andythenorth>it's the biggest game
12:30<andythenorth>easily
12:31*FLHerne isn't convinced
12:31<andythenorth>I have no stats
12:31<andythenorth>it's a plausible claim though
12:31<FLHerne>I simply don't know *anyone* who plays that regularly, compared to many who play other things :P
12:31*FLHerne has no stats either though
12:31<andythenorth>we probably play Facebook a lot more now
12:32<andythenorth>maybe it's not 2004 any more
12:33<andythenorth>anyway
12:33<FLHerne>Facebook isn't a game :P
12:33<andythenorth>yes it is
12:33<andythenorth>most social transactions can be modelled as a game
12:33<FLHerne>No, it's a system to collect everyone's personal details and then sell them to third-parties :P
12:33<andythenorth>it's ludic, it has optimum strategies etc
12:34<andythenorth>there's no single game called Facebook, different people are playing different sub-games I guess
12:34<andythenorth>I was playing OpenTTD differently for a while
12:35<andythenorth>I was playing "get new features added to the newgrf spec"
12:35<andythenorth>but I've given that up, I kept losing
12:35<andythenorth>now I'm playing "finish all the fricking newgrfs so I never have to make any more"
12:35<andythenorth>and GS
12:36<FLHerne>andythenorth: But you need to make more NewGRFs :-(
12:36*FLHerne wants more andy-made GRFs :P
12:36<andythenorth>I am currently trying to make fewer
12:36<@planetmaker>you kept loosing the NewGRF feature game? I think you've been the most successful player there, andythenorth
12:36<@planetmaker>you play that well, imho
12:36<andythenorth>it's like Dwarf Fortress
12:36<andythenorth>ultimately, you always lose
12:37<@planetmaker>:-)
12:37<FLHerne>Is there a spec for NewGRF buoys yet?
12:37*FLHerne knows someone who wanted to draw some :P
12:37<andythenorth>I might scrap BANDIT, that is one fewer grf
12:38<FLHerne>andythenorth: But I need more trucks :-(
12:38<andythenorth>why?
12:38<andythenorth>what's wrong with the current ones?
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12:38<FLHerne>eGRVTS is awful, and the 'realistic' ones are too small :P
12:39<andythenorth>why is eGRVTS awful? Seems unfair...
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12:39<FLHerne>andythenorth: Horrible buy-menu spam, for one :P
12:39<FLHerne>At least v2 has much better graphics :-)
12:40*FLHerne uses it anyway :P
12:40<FLHerne>Nothing else has good horse-vehicles
12:42<FLHerne>If you would like to order something, please let me know (either by email or in person) the size, colour and make that you would like (eg Fruit of the Loom or Gildan). I understand that we can have any combination of colours and types, as long as the logo is the same. Other articles of clothing such as sweatshirts and rugby shirts are also available if anyone feels particularly inspired, give me a shout and I can find out the relevant info.
12:42<FLHerne>I suppose I am a little unfair to Zephyris :P
12:42<FLHerne>Drat :-(
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12:52<andythenorth>FLHerne: trucks are lame anyway
12:52<andythenorth>you only need mail trucks
12:52<andythenorth>everything else should be done with trains
12:52<FLHerne>andythenorth: And food trucks, and fruit trucks, and supply trucks :P
12:52<andythenorth>no
12:52<FLHerne>And sometimes fish trucks
12:53<FLHerne>andythenorth: 'no'?
12:54<andythenorth>have you not read the goals for OpenTTD on the wiki? I'll paste
12:54<andythenorth>"OpenTTD is a transport themed educational game. The purpose of the game is to show that trains are the best form of transport. Currently the world transports most of its cargo by truck, boat and airplance. We hope that by making this game, people will recognise that trains are neglected and should be used as the default form of transport."
12:54<andythenorth>airplance is a typo, the wiki should be fixed
12:55<FLHerne>andythenorth: That's wrong :P
12:55<andythenorth>not my words :P
12:55<andythenorth>that's the game goals
12:55*FLHerne uses about 50% trains, 35% ships and 15% RVs :-)
13:01*Rubidium uses mostly effect vehicles ;)
13:01<andythenorth>do you have a branch where effect vehicles are newgrf-ed? o_O
13:02<Rubidium>andythenorth: where is that?
13:02<andythenorth>I thought maybe you wrote it :P
13:04<andythenorth>FLHerne: you can see which country you're realistically modelling o_O http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/c/c8/Modal_split_of_inland_freight_transport%2C_2000_and_2009_%281%29_%28%25_of_total_inland_tkm%29.png
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13:06<FLHerne>Lithuania or Romania then :P
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13:14<andythenorth>OpenTTD mostly represents Latvia I think
13:14<andythenorth>mostly trains
13:15<andythenorth>we should make OpenGFX look like Latvia :P
13:17<FLHerne>Trouble is, gameplay with other types just isn't so interesting :-(
13:18*FLHerne wants ship range and refuelling times :-)
13:18<FLHerne>Plane range helped, now I only avoid them from habit rather than choice :P
13:19<andythenorth>FLHerne: try new FIRS :P
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13:19<andythenorth>planes for supplies are essential
13:19<FLHerne>andythenorth: How?
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13:19*FLHerne looks forward to having a use for helos :-)
13:19<andythenorth>actually that pre-supposes GS and a time limit
13:19<andythenorth>forget what I said
13:19<andythenorth>just use trains
13:19<andythenorth>trains for everything
13:20<andythenorth>we should actually rename it
13:20<andythenorth>OpenTrainTimeDeluxe
13:20<andythenorth>it's like your own personal toy train set
13:20<FLHerne>andythenorth: But it has ships, too :D
13:20<andythenorth>just remove them tbh
13:20<andythenorth>they're useless
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13:21<FLHerne>No, they're incredibly useful :-)
13:21<andythenorth>trains are always better
13:21<andythenorth>trains are faster
13:21<FLHerne>My train networks always fall over when they get into the 100ktonne range :P
13:21<@planetmaker>you don't want to tell me, andythenorth, that the way I use trains to get oil from a rig is ok,? :D
13:21<andythenorth>it's the most logical
13:22<andythenorth>if ships were faster, they might be better
13:22<FLHerne>Ships are perfect for vast quantities of minerals - as in real life :P
13:22<frosch123>if you want to transport 1000 tons of sweets per month across 20 tiles, ships are certainly better
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13:22<andythenorth>trains would earn more
13:22<FLHerne>andythenorth: They don't need to be. They're fine already
13:22<andythenorth>maybe ships should travel 67mph or so
13:22<FLHerne>Money in OTTD is rarely a problem :P
13:22<andythenorth>I think there's a cap on speed
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13:23<frosch123>trains are no longer effective if you need more than two tracks per direction for a single point-to-point connection
13:23*FLHerne always has far too much, despite not playing to make profit :P
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13:23<andythenorth>frosch123: I bet you can't win a GS challenge with ships
13:23<andythenorth>money on it :)
13:23*planetmaker writes a game script "deliver X amount by each transport type" :D
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>if transfers don't count, it may be difficult to do anything with ships
13:24<andythenorth>:)
13:24<frosch123>andythenorth: what's the point?
13:25<frosch123>you can set the time limit 10 times higher
13:25<frosch123>you can make any challenge as hard or easy as you want
13:25<andythenorth>so let's invert my silly bet
13:25<andythenorth>what's a good GS challenge for non-train transport types?
13:25<andythenorth>for the 2 hour game with SV or NCG, trains just win
13:25<frosch123>islands
13:25<frosch123>with high terraforming cost
13:26<frosch123>and too short bridges
13:26<frosch123>anyway, night :)
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13:26<andythenorth>bye ;)
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13:26<andythenorth>take that man at his word
13:26<FLHerne>andythenorth: CargoDist makes ships more useful :P
13:26<andythenorth>let's make a new GS map for SV
13:26<FLHerne>Cargo is much easier to transfer between modes, and it tries to travel further ;-)
13:27<FLHerne>Both of which are good for ships :-)
13:27<andythenorth>ships with YACD was also good
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: ships have the huge advantage that they scale with increasing cargo amounts
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>indefinitely
13:28<@planetmaker>oh yes. I remember how you, terkhen and myself battled the map(s) with yacd and firs :-)
13:28<FLHerne>andythenorth: But YACD is no fun. Restrictive :-(
13:28*FLHerne starts going on about that sort of thing again :P
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13:31<@planetmaker>FLHerne, the final networks basically look the same for both yacd and cargodist
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so if the challenge is soemthing like "be the first to transport $amount of $cargo in one year", then the ship guy might win this for larger numbers
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i disagree. cargodist allows you to ignore some remote industries
13:32<@planetmaker>_final_ :-)
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>"ignore" means "they will not be in the final network"
13:32<@planetmaker>yes, cargodist is more forgiving in that respect
13:32<FLHerne>There's a lot of gameplay before that, though :P
13:33*FLHerne likes to join everything up eventually, though :P
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>YACD makes it really difficult to start out with industries
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>especially with diverse industry grfs like ECS or FIRS
13:33<@planetmaker>you definitely have to look for a good route, yes
13:33<@planetmaker>it gets nicer when you have autorefit there, though :-)
13:34<@planetmaker>in these kind of scenarios it really comes in handy, if not even essential
13:35<andythenorth>YACD works fine with a cluster of primaries *if* you get lucky on routes :P
13:35<andythenorth>also it's easy to start with PAX especially if there are a couple of nearby islands with large cities
13:35*andythenorth misses YACD :(
13:36<andythenorth>YACD + GS would be bonkers
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13:36<Eddi|zuHause>we should refit cargodist with "restrictive" cargo routing (optional) and finally commit it
13:36<andythenorth>is it fun?
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>yes
13:37<andythenorth>the idea of cargodist never appealed to me
13:37<andythenorth>but I haven't played it so EnoEvidence
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't played without destinations for years
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>once you play d*st you never go back
13:41<@planetmaker>I find the idea of destinations more interesting than of distribution
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>they are the same thing from a broader statistics point of view
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>which is the sole reason why cargodist actually works
13:43<andythenorth>this may well be incorrect, but I was put off by the complexity in the screenshots I saw + the docs
13:43<Yexo>good evening
13:43<andythenorth>lo Yexo
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you can play cargodist without any increased complexity at all. point-to-point connections still work
13:44<@planetmaker>hello Yexo
13:44<andythenorth>it looked like there was a lot of work in managing links and such
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but when you make complex transfer networks, all the micromanagement is removed
13:45<andythenorth>but yeah, no evidence
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you just have to provide enough capacity so everything gets transported. but the whole order management with "transfer" and "no loading" can be ignored
13:47<FLHerne>andythenorth: The complexity is imaginary ;-)
13:48<FLHerne>If your vehicles on a route are full, add more vehicles or create a new route to divert some of the traffic :P
13:48<FLHerne>If they aren't, don't - that's about all there is to the network management :P
13:48<andythenorth>so how does it work?
13:48<andythenorth>I don't understand the fundamental
13:49<andythenorth>it routes cargo, but you create the routes
13:49<andythenorth>right?
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there is not much to understand.
13:50<andythenorth>planetmaker is there a coop nightly server with cargodist?
13:51<FLHerne>andythenorth: You move vehicles around the place, the game maps where those vehicles are going and puts cargo onto them :P
13:51<andythenorth>so why do the forum threads have so many issues with route balancing and such?
13:51<@planetmaker>andythenorth, not (yet). Anything is feasible
13:52<FLHerne>andythenorth: Because it's not always perfect :P
13:52<andythenorth>but how can there be balancing issues?
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13:53<FLHerne>eg, sometimes the cargo will always want to go A->C->B rather than A->D->B, for non-obvious reasons :P
13:53*FLHerne has that problem sometimes when running both fast and stopping pax trains on the same line
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you don't provide enough capacity to handle ALL cargo, things get dodgy.
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: this is different from the default game where surplus cargo doesn't do any harm
13:54<andythenorth>ok
13:54<FLHerne>andythenorth: That's where the ships come in ;-)
13:54<FLHerne>They're great at soaking up excess load :-)
13:54<andythenorth>so surplus cargo starts getting loaded onto any vehicle which can complete the link graph?
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>especially passengers show this problem, as there is a HUUUUUGE number of them
13:55<FLHerne>Especially those freaking-huge freighter things
13:55<andythenorth>or just any vehicle? :P
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13:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: when a link is overcrowded, things may take silly detours, making other links overcrowded as well... and that backfires
13:56<andythenorth>so from a single source (A), how is cargo apportioned to connected destinations B-Z ?
13:57<andythenorth>1/25 to each?
13:59<FLHerne>andythenorth: Depends how many vehicles are going to each, how long it takes to get there and the distance :P
13:59<FLHerne>But about even if they're all identical :-)
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there's "some algorithm" in place to determine the "size" of the destination
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but "all equal" is probably a common occurance for non-passangers
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>the details are rather unimportant, which is why i did not memorize them
14:01<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: CDist needs to add a settings multiplier for pax/mail production. Agreed?
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: no.
14:02<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: :P
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14:03<Eddi|zuHause>while that feature might be very useful, it should at no point be "part" of cargodist
14:03<FLHerne>Especially with non-DD trainsets, it's very difficult to deal with the sheer numbers at the moment
14:03<FLHerne>I mean as part of the patch
14:03<FLHerne>It's silly to have to modify townsets to make it manageable
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14:06<andythenorth>it's silly that newgrf industry and houses can't respond to an economy setting for production amounts
14:06<FLHerne>andythenorth: That would be a better idea :-)
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14:12*FLHerne looks for people to cargodist with :P
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14:47<Wolf01>oddink (this time I'm right :D)
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14:52<__ln__>good @828
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15:00<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: does your desktop/taskbar clock tell you that date?
15:01<__ln__>actually yes
15:03<@Alberth>efenink
15:06<andythenorth>hi Alberth
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>gehenink
15:13<andythenorth>do articulated trucks need to be articulated?
15:13<andythenorth>I could just compress the scale right?
15:13<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r24574 /trunk/src/script/api (script_controller.cpp script_controller.hpp) (2012-10-05 19:13:44 UTC)
15:13<@DorpsGek>-Change: remove undocumented return value of ScriptController::Break()
15:13<andythenorth>do trailer truck graphics, but as one single vehicle
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and what does that solve?
15:14<andythenorth>just thinking aloud
15:14<andythenorth>not sure yet
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: ever played with LV4?
15:14<andythenorth>no, but I saw pictures
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>pictures don't tell enough
15:15<andythenorth>oh I know what it solves
15:15<andythenorth>it makes no sense to have articulated trucks that can't change trailer in depot
15:15<andythenorth>whereas if it's just one sprite, that's fine
15:15<andythenorth>perhaps
15:15<andythenorth>if you're prepared to smoke crack before playing
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>what?!
15:16<FLHerne>andythenorth: If it looks like LV4, please no :P
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>you're not making any sense at all
15:16<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r24575 trunk/src/script/api/script_controller.cpp (2012-10-05 19:16:23 UTC)
15:16<@DorpsGek>-Add: ScriptController::Break() now also pauses the game (and not only the script)
15:16<andythenorth>I can design a truck set that makes sense with no trailer trucks
15:16<andythenorth>but that limits one of: capacity, or adherence to reality
15:17<FLHerne>andythenorth: There's a difference between 'can' and 'should' :P
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: again. what does that solve?
15:19<andythenorth>in order:
15:19<andythenorth>- it makes no sense (to me) to provide articulated trucks where trailer type cannot be changed
15:19<andythenorth>- but autorefit is a desirable feature
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>- but you can change trailer type by refit
15:20<andythenorth>but that is broken with autorefit
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>why?
15:20<andythenorth>because it looks silly
15:20<andythenorth>vehicle appearance changes at stations
15:20<FLHerne>andythenorth: Real trailer trucks do that
15:20<FLHerne>That's sort of the point :P
15:21<andythenorth>I find it odd
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i still don't understand why that would be different if it were one rigid truck
15:23<FLHerne>andythenorth: Don't let them do it then ;-)
15:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I think I was smoking crack with that idea
15:23<FLHerne>If you don't like your trailers autorefitting, just don't tell them to autorefit :-)
15:23<andythenorth>a poll has shown that autorefit is nearly-essential
15:24<FLHerne>I have big eyecandy stations with cranes and containerstacks and fake lorry parks, so it wouldn't look too bad for me :P
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and you can allow different sets of refits at stations and in depots, if that really is something you desire
15:24<FLHerne>andythenorth: What did you expect? :P
15:24<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how is that done?
15:24*andythenorth checks for vars
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>in depots you can do all valid refits, in stations the autorefit callback is called
15:26<andythenorth>how to limit the set of available refits though?
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>but i'll side with FLHerne here. for trailer trucks it actually makes sense to switch trailer graphics in stations. for rigid trucks not
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: in the GUI? you can't
15:27<andythenorth>in newgrf
15:27<andythenorth>there's no way afaict
15:27<andythenorth>but nvm
15:28<andythenorth>so ships can't change graphics (e.g. tanker to cargo) - because ships are large and just don't work like that?
15:28<andythenorth>but trailer trucks - changing is acceptable because it's closer to reality?
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes
15:28<andythenorth>plausible
15:29*andythenorth is seeing a simpler design
15:29<andythenorth>no trucks with variable number of trailers
15:30<andythenorth>this set would be bigger than intended though
15:30<andythenorth>maybe that's inevitable
15:33<andythenorth>so no drawbar trucks
15:33<andythenorth>lots of rigid trucks
15:34<andythenorth>small number of articulated trucks
15:34<andythenorth>articulated trucks change appearance at stations
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what a drawbar truck is
15:35<andythenorth>http://truck-photos.net.s3.amazonaws.com/1768.jpg
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>but: rigid trucks: one for each cargo class. articulated trucks: refit to "all except passengers"
15:35<andythenorth>+1
15:35<andythenorth>and articulated trucks have 1 trailer
15:36<andythenorth>I'll figure out doubles / triples later
15:36<andythenorth>as an extra
15:36<andythenorth>now for gameplay balance....
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>put double/triple vehicles in HEQS (i'm sure i said that before)
15:36<andythenorth>maybe yes
15:37<andythenorth>only two sizes needed? large, small?
15:37<andythenorth>more than that is overkill
15:38-!-Industrial [~tom@62.212.77.76] has joined #openttd
15:38<andythenorth>~15t and ~30t
15:38<Industrial>Hello. Is downloading all online content a good idea?
15:39<Industrial>I see that it doesn't download dependencies automatically. I downloaded all scenario's and am unable to play quite a few.
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>Industrial: probably not
15:39<Industrial>Most give me the error: invalid town name generator
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>Industrial: not all scenarios put their GRFs in as dependencies
15:40<Industrial>k
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>Industrial: and some GRFs are not on the online content at all
15:40-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6CC10.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>Industrial: no idea what "invalid town name generator" means, though
15:41<Industrial>well Purno seems to make nice scenario's. e.g. Toy Train or Halo - the circle sea that i'd like to see ..
15:41<Industrial>Eddi|zuHause: k
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15:47*andythenorth is trying to puzzle out which ways autorefit is broken
15:47<andythenorth>maybe it's BANDIT
15:48<andythenorth>lead vehicle autorefits, trailers don't :P
15:48<andythenorth>probly missing flag
15:49<andythenorth>winner
15:49<andythenorth>hmm
15:49<andythenorth>how do I install pixa?
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15:53<andythenorth>python is baffling
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15:54<FLHerne>Industrial: Downloading everything is never a good idea
15:55<FLHerne>Also, there's a 'download missing content' button :P
15:55<FLHerne>andythenorth: Why no drawbar trucks?
15:56<andythenorth>is there a safe way to add a path to python's module search?
15:56<andythenorth>setup.py has stuck pixa in some path that OS X python refuses to see
15:56<andythenorth>and the python docs are confusing
15:56<FLHerne>andythenorth: OSX is stupid anyway :D
15:57*andythenorth adds to ignore file
15:57<FLHerne>:P
15:57*FLHerne gets bored with trolling :P
16:01<andythenorth>I can see the path for python site-packages
16:01<andythenorth>and I can see that pixa is in that path
16:01<andythenorth>:(
16:01<andythenorth>but import fails on module not found
16:02<andythenorth>solved
16:02<andythenorth>stupid OS X python setup
16:07<@Alberth>use the PYTHON_PATH env variable afaik
16:07<@Alberth>(I am not sure about the _ )
16:07<@Alberth>or tell setup to use a better place for putting it :)
16:08<andythenorth>all would be well if I could get OS X to let setuptools etc to agree where it should put things :P
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16:08<@Alberth>haha, you mean the customer wants to decide something???? :D
16:10<andythenorth>I forsee a falling out with python soon
16:11<andythenorth>I can import pixa
16:11<andythenorth>but I can't import any of pixa's modules
16:11<andythenorth>modules / classes /s
16:12<@Alberth>modules and classes are very different things
16:13<@Alberth>what exactly fails?
16:13<andythenorth>ImportError: cannot import name PixaShiftXY
16:13<andythenorth>the only thing that changed since it last worked is....I migrated my OS :P
16:13<@Alberth>where that is a class, I assume. In pixa.py ?
16:13<andythenorth>yes
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>you can only import classes if the __init__.py imports *
16:14<andythenorth>hmm
16:14<andythenorth>that class is missing from pixa
16:14<@Alberth>that would be another option :p
16:14<andythenorth>that will teach me to install stable instead of nightly :P
16:14<andythenorth>I am too used to having a broken python to spot the obvious problem :P
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what your problem is. it worked out-of-the-box here
16:16<andythenorth>used a tag instead of tip
16:17<andythenorth>tag misses a class :P
16:17<andythenorth>:m
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>i mean your general python problems
16:17<@Alberth>so much for testing code that gets thrown into the repo :p
16:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: apple-supplied python is basically weird and strange and best avoided
16:18<andythenorth>but I can never be bothered to teach nml etc to use a different python
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>that's done by environment variables?
16:19<andythenorth>yes
16:19<andythenorth>I guess
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure i knew this once
16:19<andythenorth>I only need a few packages, so when I upgrade my OS I go through the pain of fighting the modules to work with apple-python
16:19<@Alberth>if you installed nml, it's she-bang line points to the python you used to install it
16:20<andythenorth>or I could just use a virtual-env, which seems to solve all woes :P
16:20<andythenorth>it would be fine if apple stopped moving the install location for site-packages to bizarre places, probably
16:20<FLHerne>andythenorth: Or a better OS :D
16:20<andythenorth>anyway, works now :)
16:21*FLHerne puts his troll-hat back on :P
16:21<@Alberth>build a sane Python from its source code, and leave apple-python alone :p
16:22<andythenorth>yes
16:22<andythenorth>that's the known solution
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: usually there is a site-packages for system packages, and a site-packages for custom packages (in linux that's /usr and /usr/local)
16:22<andythenorth>we had to solve this at work
16:22<andythenorth>there is a python buildout that is known good and solves all these evils
16:22<andythenorth>then set the shebang
16:22*andythenorth should do it properly
16:23<andythenorth>hmm
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't get the point of "buildout"
16:23<andythenorth>this truck is refitting happily between 1 and 2 trailers
16:23<andythenorth>and the game isn't crashing
16:23<andythenorth>maybe I forgot to set the second trailer length to 1/8
16:23<FLHerne>Yay? :-P
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: because you don't set the length?
16:24<andythenorth>yes
16:24<andythenorth>the sky doesn't fall if trailer graphics change at station
16:24<andythenorth>it's even ok changing number of trailers
16:25<andythenorth>it's only a game :P
16:25<FLHerne>Hallelujah! :D
16:25<FLHerne>Finally you've stopped nitpicking over random minor details! :P
16:25*FLHerne takes off the troll-hat
16:26<andythenorth>changing rigid truck body is weird though
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>don't jinx it
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16:26<andythenorth>it is a bit weird to just see a trailer snap away into nothingness
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you wanted to split these into several vehicles
16:26<andythenorth>yes yes
16:26<andythenorth>just wanted to test
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>i meant the rigid trucks
16:26<andythenorth>yes
16:27<andythenorth>I wanted to be sure this is a problem, and not 2 weeks of arguing about a non-problem ;)
16:27<FLHerne>andythenorth: For scrap you could have skip-lorries?
16:27<andythenorth>I have BANDIT running in a game
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>and i can't decide what game to play next
16:29<andythenorth>elite
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what that is
16:30<FLHerne>andythenorth: I have that :-)
16:31<FLHerne>Fun, but infuriating ;-)
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>i have at least 4 games now that infuriated me by crashing randomly
16:32<SpComb>tricky truck
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>hm... orion2 without modifying races?
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>nah, that's silly
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16:51<andythenorth>time for bed
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18:22<Wolf01>'night
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18:49<newbie>Hi, i just wanted to ask for some response/review on this topic: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=62677
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19:01<Zuu>Der_Herr: Why do you set _settings_newgame.game_creation.generation_seed twice in StartNewHeightMapGameWithoutGUI(uint seed)
19:01<Zuu>?
19:03<Der_Herr>thats a very good question and i think it can be removed
19:04<Der_Herr>anymore suggestions/hints?
19:05<Zuu>I have another question that may not be due to a problem with your code, but I've just never worked with the console commands in OpenTTD.
19:06<Zuu>You check for argc == 2, and then use argv[1].
19:06<Zuu>Furher down in the code you check for argc >= 1 and use argv[1].
19:06<Zuu>what will argv[0] contain?
19:06<Zuu>the command name?
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19:06<Der_Herr>if i remember correct yes
19:07<Der_Herr>this function is a copy of the newgame console command
19:07<Zuu>hmm, and if someone types 'help cmd', then the console command gets called with argc == 0?
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19:09<Zuu>In your console command there are quite many lines of code to parse the file name and decide how to load the heightmap. Doesn't this duplicate similar code for loading heightmaps in the GUI?
19:10<Zuu>Would it possible to combine this into a method used at both places?
19:11<Der_Herr>might be, but i am not very experienced in writing c++ code so i didnt really try to merge these cases
19:13<Der_Herr>i also think there might be an easier way to start a heightmap game, but still i am not into this spaghetti style *g*
19:13<Zuu>In general I think your code look good. These are things that could improve it further.
19:14<Zuu>Oh, and it should be "} else {" and not "}\n else {"
19:15<Zuu>indent the case XYZ: things and the code belows it one step further.
19:17<Der_Herr>i see, it must been shifted while copying
19:17<Der_Herr>i consider your points and try to improve the thing again, thank you
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19:19<Zuu>You're welcome :-)
19:20<Zuu>Most people here started out making patches, and then some more and some more.. :-)
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19:21<Der_Herr>is it better to ask here for review or should i wait for a response in the forum/bugtracker?
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19:22<Zuu>Its a good idea to post patches to forum or bugtracker if not else to have somewhere to upload them. If you don't get any response there, come here into IRC to get in touch.
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19:23<Der_Herr>ok, thank you
19:23<Der_Herr>i wish a good night :)
19:23<Zuu>The bugtracker is read mostly by devs and some other patch authors, the forum is yea more general.
19:24<Zuu>good night too
19:24<Der_Herr>thats right, but i didnt get any response there ( Yexo responded also in irc)
19:24<Der_Herr>ok, anyway cya
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 06 00:00:31 2012