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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-10-06

---Logopened Sat Oct 06 00:00:32 2012
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03:22<@Alberth>moin
03:22<Supercheese>salve
03:30<Rubidium>Alberth: hi, feels like "snertweer", right?
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03:31<Wolf01>hello
03:32<@Alberth>somewhat, although it is just a bit wet, but not raining much
03:32<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
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05:13<_Terkhen>good morning
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05:15<@Alberth>moin _Terkhen
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05:21<DDR>General question: I have enjoyed playing OpenTTD and Maxis' SimCities. Can anyone recommend a new-ish game in the same vein, other than SimuTrans?
05:22<Rubidium>p1sim?
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05:22<Rubidium>(well, not really recommend as I never played it)
05:23<Rubidium>nor do I know whether there's an actual release of it either
05:23<@Alberth>it will be a few years before that is finished, I think
05:23<DDR>Looks like more or less what I want, but a bit *too* new.
05:23<andythenorth>theme park?
05:23<andythenorth>railroad tycoon?
05:23<andythenorth>all old :P
05:23<andythenorth>Farmville!
05:24<DDR>Played RailRoad Tycoon 2 Platinum into the ground.
05:24<DDR>I actually was playing it just a month or two ago. :P
05:24<@Alberth>locomotion?
05:24<@Alberth>never played it though
05:25<DDR>6 years old, but I've never played it.
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05:25<DDR>In RRT2P, I actually found a song in the files I'd never heard before.
05:26*Rubidium likes Caesar II/III and Pharaoh a lot as well
05:29<DDR>Hm, looks possible.
05:29<DDR>And... ancient. :/ I was 8 when those came out, Caesar III at least.
05:29<DDR>I might still play them.
05:30<DDR>Thanks, Rubidium and andythenorth.
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05:31<andythenorth>DDR: railroad tycoon 3 is pretty addictive
05:32<DDR>I've actually downloaded it, I'm just a bit nervous of starting it up... what if it ruins RRT2?
05:32<andythenorth>it's a completely different gameplay
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>i tried RRT2 for half an hour, and didn't quite see the point of it after playing RRT
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05:37<Eddi|zuHause>sure it has prettier graphics, but the gameplay took a turn for the worse and the UI was unintuitive/silly
05:37<andythenorth>and it was...crashy
05:38<_Terkhen>many games move in that direction lately :P
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>i think i didn't get that far :p
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05:38<_Terkhen>"make it look nicer and dumb the whole thing down"
05:39<andythenorth>more trains, more cargos, more industries
05:39<andythenorth>option to build more things at stations
05:39<andythenorth>"3D" graphics!
05:39<andythenorth>definitely better, right?
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>no "dispatcher operation"/signal towers
05:41<@Alberth>andythenorth: just like 32bpp? :)
05:41<andythenorth>has map rotation!
05:41<andythenorth>we definitely need that
05:42<Markk>Yes
05:42<Markk>But I'm quite fine with the transparency option.
05:43<@Alberth>andythenorth: I have not asked zephyris about it, but if he modelled the backside too, the chances get a lot better
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05:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but for "3D graphics" the rotation is very limited
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05:59<andythenorth>iirc they're rasterised pixels
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06:28<andythenorth>hmm
06:28<andythenorth>will there be a 32bpp FIRS?
06:29<frosch123>will there be an extra zoom firs?
06:29<frosch123>you know, extra zoom graphics are so huge that they are safe for small children
06:30<frosch123>anyway, did anyone bother yet to draw extra zoom graphics without rendering?
06:30<frosch123>i think there is nothing more boring that doing stuff 4 times
06:31<frosch123>or 3?
06:33*frosch123 ponders shipping food
06:38<frosch123>tram-ship-tram sounds nice, doesn't it?
06:38<Industrial>Just hit the max on vehicles (500) the first time :-(
06:39<frosch123>increase the limit
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06:39<frosch123>it's only for multiplayer issues
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06:39<Industrial>I can watch other people build :O? I'm not that good with rails :|
06:40<Industrial>oh, awzum :E
06:40<frosch123>_Terkhen: building tram tracks is so much easier now :)
06:41<Industrial>frosch123: I can't seem to join any game though. The button is greyed out.
06:41<frosch123>you need to find a server which runs exactly the same version as you have
06:41<frosch123>what version of ottd are you running?
06:42<Industrial>1.1.4 it seems (jeez slow downstream in ubuntu). I'll get the latest.
06:43<frosch123>most servers run 1.2.2 :)
06:43<_Terkhen>frosch123: :)
06:43<_Terkhen>I have not played a test game but it felt more simpler in my tests
06:47<frosch123>oh, looks like i build a wrong ship
06:47<frosch123>why are ferries refittable to food? :s
06:48<_Terkhen>soylent green?
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06:49<frosch123>i bought a paddle steamer because it was so fast and could carry 540 stuff
06:49<frosch123>but turned out 540 meant pax, and only 112 food
06:54<Zuu>_Terkhen: Indeed, that change with draging of road is very quick to become used to. When using 1.2 for whatever reason, it is easy to make silly mistakes. :-)
06:54<andythenorth>frosch123: did they buy menu mention cargo capacity?
06:54<andythenorth>the *
06:55<frosch123>yes, for pax
06:55<frosch123>which i did not notice
06:55<frosch123>since i assumed that no vehicle would refit between pax and cargo .)
06:56<frosch123>now i use huge freighters instead
06:56<frosch123>which are as big as the lake i made at the dock :)
06:56<frosch123>i guess they are not exactly canal boats
06:57<andythenorth>try building a dock on rivers or canals :P
06:57<andythenorth>it's boring
06:57<frosch123>my route is about 1/3 of each river, canal and sea
07:02<_Terkhen>Zuu: :)
07:07<andythenorth>NewDocks?
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07:21<frosch123>hmm, are dump trucks appropiate for food?
07:24<frosch123>oh, a tram just reversed where it should not reverse :o
07:24<frosch123>they just reverse at the end of a downhill track
07:26<@Alberth>andy: alternative buy menu? :p http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=164658
07:26<andythenorth>try running them into the sea?
07:26<andythenorth>dump trucks are appropriate for food :)
07:26<andythenorth>Alberth: hey that's like the mockup we made :)
07:27<@Alberth>the left side doesn't look pretty to me at all
07:28<frosch123>is that locomotion?
07:29<andythenorth>the mockup I made is on devzone somewhere
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07:38<Kylie>to canadians: happy thanksgiving weekend!
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07:39<andythenorth>Alberth: http://www.tt-foundry.com/misc/buy_menu_rework.png
07:42<@Alberth>seems quite large :)
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07:44<andythenorth>ships are
07:45<Kylie>andythenorth: why are ships so cheap
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07:49<@Alberth>to be ablew to buy one in the start of the game, I think
07:49<@Alberth>-w
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07:57<andythenorth>it's one way to reduce their total pointlessness
07:57<andythenorth>there is very little point to ships
08:01<andythenorth>openttd is a remarkably unbalanced game wrt different transport types
08:03<andythenorth>compare something like Warcraft 1 where different kinds of units have very different roles in gameplay (peons, orcs, catapults) etc
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08:04<frosch123>he... trains, rv and ships are very useful in my current game
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08:04<frosch123>ships just only make sense if you have really lots of cargo
08:04<frosch123>and rv only make sense on very short routes
08:05<frosch123>you just play the wrong games :)
08:05<frosch123>anyway, time to fund my fifth food plant
08:08<Elukka>i think it's not a problem you can totally solve with the current economy
08:09<Elukka>one obvious way to make ships useful would be to make rail bridges more expensive
08:09<Elukka>but what does that matter when you have infinite money anyway?
08:09<@Alberth>Elukka: just make new land in the sea :p
08:09<frosch123>rail bridges longer than 20 tiles are not really efficient :p
08:10<@Alberth>frosch123: depends on how many you have :p
08:10<andythenorth>original TTD was a lot more balanced
08:10<frosch123>anyway, preventing all kind of cheats is not exactly a good goal
08:10<andythenorth>- ships were useless, RVs were useless, planes were too expensive and crashed a lot
08:10<frosch123>just let the cheaters not have fun :p
08:10<andythenorth>- signals were useless, and you could only fill so much map with "1 line per train"
08:11<andythenorth>we fixed trains with PBS and all the other crap :P
08:11<andythenorth>trains are now super-awesome and will win on every route
08:11<frosch123>wrong
08:11<@Alberth>I played a lot with signals, they sort of work with simple RORO setups
08:11<frosch123>andythenorth: you try to make all vehicles the same, which will turn ottd in totally boredom
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08:12<frosch123>it's not the point of ships and rv to be used for the same purpose as trains
08:12<@Alberth>+1
08:12<frosch123>rv are for short distances which just fail for trains because of space and loading times
08:13<frosch123>ships are for lots of cargos which would need 10 tracks in parallel for a single point to point connection
08:13<frosch123>try to transport 10k of food with trains
08:13<andythenorth>I am overly influenced by recent GS games :P
08:13<frosch123>totally pointless
08:14<andythenorth>we had 10 or 12 tracks in parallel
08:14<frosch123>andythenorth: i am just now playing a gs
08:14<frosch123>but a long term gs, no 5 year short game
08:14<frosch123>if the maximum amount of cargo you have is 1k in 3 months, yeah, ships are pretty pointless
08:14<andythenorth>if 10-12 track maglev is optimum for a 5 year GS, why isn't it also optimum for 25 years?
08:14<frosch123>i am in 1939
08:14<frosch123>no maglev
08:15<frosch123>if you want to make ships compete with maglev
08:15<frosch123>well, then you need hydrofoil cargoships
08:15<frosch123>which carry 1k cargo and go 70 km/h
08:15<@Alberth>turbo-shipping :)
08:15<frosch123>or just play without maglev
08:15<frosch123>maglev is only for pax
08:16<frosch123>and ships are pointless for pax in general, except if you want to play golf
08:16<frosch123>but who cares about pax?
08:16<@Alberth>disable cargoes for maglev?
08:16<frosch123>i think i always played like that :)
08:16<frosch123>though argueable i tend to play more 1920-1970
08:17<@Alberth>I mostly never reach maglev stage :)
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08:28<andythenorth>it's a shame that it's not possible to provide a cost baseline that would level grfs
08:28<andythenorth>something like
08:28<andythenorth>cost per unit hp-ton-speed
08:29<Elukka>rail and road vehicles are balanced with better road vehicles and higher running costs for trains
08:29<Elukka>which makes trains unfeasible for particularly short or low capacity routes
08:29<Elukka>in vanilla and many grfs though it's pretty much better to just go with trains
08:30<andythenorth>so all the MP games I played recently, trains were absolutely dominant
08:30<frosch123>that is quite subjective
08:30<andythenorth>obviously :)
08:31<frosch123>in the mp games i played with you, trams were equally often used
08:31<frosch123>for feeders
08:31<frosch123>and in the supplies game, there were tons of aircraft
08:31<andythenorth>the return on buying a train was much larger than on other types though
08:31<frosch123>for ships we did not have enough industry output
08:31<andythenorth>most of those games, a train would repay purchase cost in ~3 months
08:31<frosch123>who cares?
08:32<frosch123>the game is about transporting stuff efficiently
08:32<frosch123>and not about making money
08:32<frosch123>else you can build the money maker at the start and be finished
08:33<frosch123>the point of the gs was to force a maximum tranport percentage of cargo
08:33<frosch123>not to force you to make the most money with the fewest vehicles
08:34<frosch123>games with the goal of making money only work if there is a lot of micro management
08:34<frosch123>else the income always grows exponential
08:35<frosch123>and since ottd is luckily not about micro management, the money goal is completely useless
08:35<frosch123>just ignore it
08:35<andythenorth>ok, so...for those GS ships don't fit
08:36<frosch123>not for short s
08:36<frosch123>*gs
08:36<andythenorth>so what would be an interesting variation?
08:36<frosch123>currently i am playing a 30 years sv game, with 10k goal
08:36<andythenorth>other than the obvious like "build 500 ships" :P
08:36<frosch123>i have to transport them accross half the map, because there are only 2 food shops
08:36<frosch123>that's only feasible to do with ships
08:36<andythenorth>no planes yet?
08:36<frosch123>ofc i could spoil the game and just fund a food shop in my home town
08:37<andythenorth>:P
08:37<frosch123>but well, that would be stupid and make the game boring
08:37<frosch123>planes? i hope you do not mean for the food?
08:38<frosch123>andythenorth: add two new parameters to firs
08:38<frosch123>multiplier for primary and secondary cargo production
08:38<frosch123>if industries produce a lot more, ships become a lot more feasible
08:39<frosch123>if they produce a lot less, rv become more feasible :p
08:39<frosch123>but likely the roads will bankrupt you
08:39<andythenorth>frosch123: I want to do that differently
08:40<andythenorth>we should have a thing called NoConomy
08:40<andythenorth>and it should offer player / GS more control over prod_level
08:41<andythenorth>FIRS primaries would then use prod_level in their output calc (they currently don't(
08:42<andythenorth>but they wouldn't set or modify prod_level, allowing player / openttd / GS to do it
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09:24<andythenorth>frosch123: in the absence of NoConomy, a FIRS parameter to set production would be trivial
09:24<andythenorth>but I think it's stinky :P
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09:37<frosch123>trams need an unstuck button
09:37<frosch123>to ignore other vehicles
09:38<andythenorth>or when they reach the end of a tile with no loop back
09:38<frosch123>you can avoid that
09:38<frosch123>but if trams are stuck in a circle
09:38<frosch123>its annoying to wait for the timeout
09:38<andythenorth>then they're very stuck :)
09:39<frosch123>until you can redesign the track
09:39<andythenorth>I have had that with loops + depots :)
09:39<frosch123>i feel i have to abandon the tram usage
09:39<frosch123>and instead drive ships uphill
09:39<andythenorth>:(
09:39<andythenorth>screenshot? :P
09:41<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/TramsHaveTooLowCapacity.png <- i need to transport 4k per quarter (10k in the long run) over 15 tiles and 3 height levels
09:43<andythenorth>ho ho
09:43<andythenorth>tram mania
09:43<andythenorth>:)
09:43<andythenorth>canal switchback for ships?
09:44<andythenorth>we need boat lifts :P
09:44<andythenorth>http://englishrussia.com/2011/08/09/the-job-of-vessel-carrying/
09:44<frosch123>mind that i don't want to stationwalk those 15 tiles :p
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09:53<andythenorth>frosch123: you only have to go up 3 levels :P
09:53<andythenorth>I do that kind of thing all the time :P
09:53<frosch123>i think i should try to not use any tram sections
09:53<frosch123>and balance them to use the stops bidirectional
09:54<frosch123>unfortunately there are neither tram signals
09:54<andythenorth>long trams block very easily
09:54<frosch123>nor tram oneway tracks
09:57<andythenorth>I could implement them as trains :P
09:57<andythenorth>defeats the point?
09:59<frosch123>yeah, no dual track on single tile
10:01<@Alberth>such a nice and quiet town, and then a big tram network right next to it :)
10:02<frosch123>well, they eat so much
10:06<andythenorth>frosch123: no trucks?
10:06<andythenorth>also which FISH version?
10:07<frosch123>i think i started the game two weeks ago
10:07<frosch123>so, old fish
10:08<frosch123>no trucks available for some reason
10:08<frosch123>only the small ogfx ones
10:08<frosch123>maybe too early?
10:08<frosch123>or i disabled them :p
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13:30<Matulla>hi all Question are the citisens numbers and down in some cases ?
13:30<Matulla>im shure i had 680 but now after road building i got 560
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13:37<TyrHeimdal>HI! :D
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>buildings can close down or be rebuilt into different buldings
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>then that building's population is removed from the town population
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>it will be increased again when the bulding is finished
13:38<TyrHeimdal>Is there a way to close an airport so that planes don't land? Useful whn upgrading airports.
13:38<TyrHeimdal>*when
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13:41<Eddi|zuHause>there is an old patch
13:42<andythenorth>it's in nightly no?
13:42<andythenorth>yeah, in nightlies
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>sure?
13:42<andythenorth>yup
13:43<andythenorth>just checked
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>since when?
13:43<andythenorth>"OpenTTD is not dying" tm
13:43<andythenorth>not sure when
13:43<andythenorth>small stuff keeps turning up in nightlies :)
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>i guess i missed a bit in the last months
13:49<Matulla>Eddi|zuHause: Thanks
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14:25<NGC3982>Evening.
14:28<@Alberth>'oi
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15:21*andythenorth wonders if FIRS snow sprites will be finished soon :P
15:21<andythenorth>5 or 6 industries left to draw snow for :|
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16:31<supermop>hi
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16:43<@Terkhen>good night
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18:01<Cyberworm>hi I'm trying to cross-compile version 1.2.2 and I encountered some problems with squirrel
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18:28<Wolf01>'night
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19:19<Yexo>Cyberworm: what problems did you encounter?
19:19<Yexo>if you aren't more specific, we can't help you
19:23<Cyberworm>when compiling sqbaselib.cpp I get error messages of that kind:
19:24<Cyberworm>arm-none-linux-gnueabi/include/c++/4.6.1/cmath:975:11: error: '::acoshl' has not been declared
19:24<Cyberworm>they are several messages like this
19:24<Cyberworm>with different missing declarations
19:24<Cyberworm>all from cmath
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19:26<+glx>that should be provided by the compiler
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19:31<Cyberworm>glx: what do you mean?
19:32<+glx>cmath is a c++ include provided by the compiler
19:35<Cyberworm>is that provided automatically?
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19:56<frosch123>night
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---Logclosed Sun Oct 07 00:00:33 2012