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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-10-09

---Logopened Tue Oct 09 00:00:36 2012
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00:33<Rubidium>hmmwhatsthisdo: if you want that 'old' extra zoom patch then you have to reinstall that old version
00:34<Rubidium>hmmwhatsthisdo: however, extra zoom is now in the official release
00:34<hmmwhatsthisdo>Rubidium: I need to get rid of it, I think I might've stashed an old NewGRF somewhere and now it's making ridiculously high zoom levels
00:35<hmmwhatsthisdo>I'm tempted to just reinstall it
00:36<Rubidium>did you compile OpenTTD yourself?
00:37<Rubidium>if you didn't then the patch from 1.1.x can't have been 'transfered' to 1.2.2
00:37<Rubidium>so you are just using the default extra zoom feature
00:37<hmmwhatsthisdo>oh, ok
00:38<Rubidium>if you think you're zooming in too far, there is an advanced setting to limit the amount of zoom in and zoom out
00:39<hmmwhatsthisdo>well, I'm not worried that much about the zoom itself, I'm more worried about the significant drop in fast-forward speed, which was much higher before upgrading
00:40<hmmwhatsthisdo>(I assumed the two might be related)
00:40<Rubidium>I have no idea whether they are related; they might be, but it's hard to be certain
00:41<Rubidium>nevertheless changing the maximum zoom in might help
00:42<hmmwhatsthisdo>just tried it, no dice
00:50<Rubidium>have you used any NewGRFs? If so, which ones exactly?
00:52<Rubidium>might be that one enabled 32bpp which might be significantly slower
00:53<Supercheese>wait, if a grf enables 32bpp it might significantly slow down OTTD?
00:53<Supercheese>just by enabling?
00:53<Supercheese>or does it have to also have larger sprite (file)sizes?
00:54<Rubidium>that, and hardware accelerated sprite recolouring is faster than software
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00:56<Rubidium>a long time ago I did a test; 8bpp non-animated was roughly as fast as 8bpp animated, but 32bpp non-animated was significantly faster than 32bpp animated (and IIRC 32bpp non-animated was only slightly slower than 32bpp animated)
00:57<Rubidium>in any case, a few years ago we had these kinds of complaints from OS X users about the (perceived) slowing of fast forward
00:58<Rubidium>just around the time 32bpp-animated became default for OS X due to them removing hardware accelerated 8bpp from their hardware/software without their APIs returning "I can't do that"
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01:17<hmmwhatsthisdo>Rubidium: No 32bpp NewGRFs
01:18<hmmwhatsthisdo>though, my laptop uses a 32bpp base set and is noticeably faster, I wonder if the same case as what you mentioned is happening here
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02:57<dostoj>hi! I've downloaded CityBuilder.tar from bananas. I put it into ./openttd/game (using linux). How do I run the script?
02:57<dostoj>It won't show up anywhere in the game file chooser
02:58<Supercheese>try AI/Gamescript settings
02:58<Supercheese>from main menu
02:58<dostoj>yes, i can see it there
02:58<dostoj>i can configure it
02:58<Supercheese>select the game script, start a new game
02:58<Supercheese>works, no?
02:59<dostoj>thanks a lot
02:59<Supercheese>you're welcome
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04:23<Eddi|zuHause>i sense a spam attack
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06:04<NGC3982>What - in reality - does the town campaigns do?
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06:05<NGC3982>The Wiki states: "temporarily raise(s) nearby station ratings"
06:05<NGC3982>That's it?
06:08<Pinkbeast>That's my understanding. (But that can mean, as well as more cargo, better relations with the town, which is a constant bleeding ulcer any time you look at a tree funny...)
06:09<NGC3982>I see.
06:09<NGC3982>It would be nice to see the actual mechanics behind it.
06:09<NGC3982>Since (if it's more than just station rating) it seems a bit vague.
06:10<Pinkbeast>I am not aware of any suggestion it is more than just station rating.
06:22<@peter1138>The source is out there...
06:24<__ln__>peter1138: off-topic question: would you say that in "x = (int) y" y is casted to int?
06:25<@peter1138>No, it's cast to int.
06:27<TyrHeimdal>Is there a place I can suggest features for the game?
06:27<TyrHeimdal>or is this it? :)
06:27<@peter1138>I would suggest the forums.
06:28<__ln__>#elsewhere i saw a native english speaker using 'casted' as the past tense. and he agreed it should be 'cast' when i asked about it, but he hadn't thought about it until then.
06:28<NGC3982>peter1138: The source?
06:29<__ln__>so i was wondering if "to cast" in programming context is perhaps subconsciously considered to be a different verb than the usual kind of "to cast".
06:31<@peter1138>There's more than one meaning of cast without the programming sense.
06:32<@peter1138>There's cast as in thrown or projected, and as in casting a fishing line.
06:32<@peter1138>Then there is cast as in an actor is cast in a role. That meaning probably fits the programming sense too.
06:37<__ln__>does it have anything to do with the caste system of e.g. india?
06:38<@peter1138>I find that unlikely.
06:41<NGC3982>Afaik, "to cast" in Swenglish is to set a variable to a value.
06:41<NGC3982>Or something like that
06:41<@peter1138>You know incorrectly...
06:42<NGC3982>I have no idea, i have just overheard someone saying it.
06:42<@peter1138>Swenglish refering to...?
06:43<NGC3982>Swedes using english slang.
06:43<__ln__>Then there's the concept of 'integer promotion', which somehow implies that one type is better than the other, like with castes.
06:43<TyrHeimdal>OK, so i suggested a feature in the forums! wohoo! :D
06:43<@peter1138>Give it a few minutes for it to be shot down :-)
06:44<TyrHeimdal>peter1138: no worries, I know how forums work ^^
06:44<__ln__>Swenglish would be quite a nice term also for swedes attempting to speak English. :) They tend to mix Swedish words or Swedish-like spelling into English.
06:44<TyrHeimdal>in case anyone was wondering what it was
06:45<NGC3982>__ln__: Indeed. Like "headshotta" > "to make a headshot".
06:45<NGC3982>It's very normal in online gaming lingo, afaik.
06:45<@peter1138>The correct term for that is HEADSHOT!
06:46<TyrHeimdal>you must be's "BOOM! HEADSHOT!"
06:46<NGC3982>M-m-m-m-m-monster kill! \o/
06:47<TyrHeimdal>reminds me, I should rewatch pure pwnage
06:47<TyrHeimdal>it's just silly :P
06:47<@Terkhen>TyrHeimdal: there is a patch for close airports
06:47<TyrHeimdal>wait, whaaaat?
06:47<TyrHeimdal>how did I miss that?
06:48<@Terkhen>I think that it was committed but I'm not sure
06:48<@Terkhen>failed a "close airport" forum search? :P
06:49<TyrHeimdal>I failed at spelling ><
06:49<TyrHeimdal>"close airoprt"
06:49<__ln__>TyrHeimdal: you misspelled "than" as "then", and "break" as "brake" in your post.
06:49<@Terkhen>check the patch thread for details, start by the end just in case it is committed
06:50<@Terkhen>blame my poor memory if it is not
06:50<TyrHeimdal>__ln__: thanks, fixed. English isn't my native tounge
06:50<__ln__>not mine either
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06:55<Guest1119>well, yes, play nightly OpenTTD, TyrHeimdal ;-)
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06:55<TyrHeimdal>planetmaker: yeap, just saw it :D
06:56<TyrHeimdal>hmm, don't know exactly how to phrase this question, but I'll give it a go.
06:57<TyrHeimdal>What's the "best" way to exploit the industries. build railways between the closest providers to the closest users? or build large infrastructures to transport it to a central factory/sawmill/whatnot and distribute it from there?
06:57<planetmaker>what is your definition of "best"? :-)
06:58<TyrHeimdal>no idea
06:58<TyrHeimdal>best practice?
06:58<planetmaker>what's your scale you measure it by?
06:58<TyrHeimdal>that's why I didn't know exactly how to ask ^^
06:59<planetmaker>Money? fun? points? amount of cargo per unit time? amount of vehicles needed (few / many)? transport modes used?
06:59<TyrHeimdal>fun and efficiensy perhaps
06:59<planetmaker>as there's no definition of "best" which suits all people, many answers can be right. Which even are mutually exclusive
06:59<TyrHeimdal>planetmaker: I like you :)
07:00<planetmaker>generally, you usually make more money, if you transport goods over large(r) distances
07:00<planetmaker>short distances don't pay very well
07:01<TyrHeimdal>I usually start by finding an area of 3-4-5 forests/coals/iron ore and take it its counterpart. but then I move on to the next "patch"
07:01<planetmaker>So in order to make loads of money to get going I usually start with a single long route
07:02<planetmaker>Either passengers between two large towns. Or maybe coal or wood from a cluster of mines / forests to a distant power plant or saw mill
07:02<planetmaker>distant means >= 100 tiles
07:02<planetmaker>when I have that money I can build whatever and however I want
07:03<TyrHeimdal>ok, so with a long rail line from a cluster to a "central" sawmill or other industry, build small lines from the sides to collect to transfer points along the first long line?
07:03<TyrHeimdal>with smaller trains?
07:03<planetmaker>and it even helps when playing with goal scripts like SiliconValley or NoCarGoal which require you to transport a certain cargo within a certain time frame to a certain place
07:03<planetmaker>my train length varies between 4 and 7
07:03<planetmaker>usually 5 tiles
07:04<planetmaker>always using full load orders
07:04<TyrHeimdal>all going down the long line, or transferring to haulers along the main line?
07:05<planetmaker>I might transfer to one station within a local cluster from which then trains haul the long road to the destination. Or I might not. Depends
07:05<TyrHeimdal>this game has SO many variables to consider ^^
07:05<planetmaker>If it's a short transfer to a transfer station, RV might also come in handy for small amounts
07:06<TyrHeimdal>not sure why, but I sort of don't like RVs
07:06<planetmaker>or a ship to bridge a gap of water
07:06<planetmaker>but generally trains make the biggest money
07:06<planetmaker>for me
07:07<TyrHeimdal>I tend to go plane heavy, but that's not so much fun in the long run
07:08<planetmaker>if you like crazy games, visit and have a look. You'll need the grfpack from
07:08<planetmaker>planes are dead boring to me. No infrastructure, no thinking needed. And too low capacity
07:08<planetmaker>and not extendable; airports have a low limit on throughput
07:13<TyrHeimdal>Yeah, I agree
07:13<TyrHeimdal>I want to build large complex networks, but I don't have the skills
07:14<planetmaker>one of my favourite games are and
07:15<planetmaker>especially the latter was fun. With 15 sub-networks built by different people. All connected by a huge ICE network
07:15<planetmaker>(and yes, the image is "my" ice terminal :-P)
07:17<TyrHeimdal>is that some sort of cargo holding area on the sides?
07:17<planetmaker>Feel free to join #openttdcoop and one of its servers. There people usually build this kind of stuff collectively. It's a great place to learn this building style
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07:17<planetmaker>those are station tiles. But just for eye candy to show waiting cargo
07:17<planetmaker>it has no functional effect other than looking nice
07:18<TyrHeimdal>does it actually show waiting cargo ammount in some way, or is it static?
07:18<planetmaker>it's related to the amount of waiting cargo, yes. But on a per-tile basis. In kinda 3 or four amounts
07:19<planetmaker>empty, 1/3, 2/3 and 3/3 or so for certain amounts which I don't know
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07:20<planetmaker>download the savegame and see yourself ;-)
07:20<TyrHeimdal>i will!
07:21<TyrHeimdal>oh what the ...
07:21<planetmaker>it will need the additional grfs in the grfpack I linked earlier (and some from the online content)
07:21<TyrHeimdal>that looked....complex
07:21<TyrHeimdal>kk, I'll check it out when I get home from work ^^
07:22<planetmaker>yes... advanced stuff to minimize train distance on main line tracks in order to increase overall track capacity and through-put
07:25<dada__>would be fun to build something like that irl
07:25<dada__>poor blokes who have to drive the trains in the loops 24/7 :)
07:27<planetmaker>play in modern times and use robot trains for it ;-)
07:27<dada__>I should really get in on this openttd coop thing sometime...would probably improve my openttd skillz significantly
07:28<TyrHeimdal>newbe question. That GRF-pack, the readme didn't say anything about how to "install" it
07:28<TyrHeimdal>where to extract I'm guessing
07:29<planetmaker>just unzip in your newgrf folder.. like c:\documents\my files\OpenTTD\newgrf
07:29<planetmaker>or whatever. depends on OS (version)
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07:35<TyrHeimdal>off to a meeting, bbl
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10:05<@peter1138>What happened in here? Quiet for 2½ hours...
10:12<NGC3982>Is that something out of the ordinary?
10:13<@peter1138>Probably not.
10:22<szaman>everybody watches the man falling down from 36 km in the air
10:26<__ln__>oh, that. url?
10:27<@peter1138>This isn't that, but still...
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12:30<BadBrett>hmmm... what is the exact syntax for getting a groundsprite slope...? i read the documentation but i don't seem to get it
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12:34<Supercheese>(or at least, I think)
12:34<Supercheese>I haven't don't much with tile slopes myself
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13:21<jose>hi, is there a way to create multiple dedicated servers with a single openttd installation(with multiple configs...)?
13:21<jose>i have a debian and a windows root...
13:22<jose>i was able to start a single server, but multiple...?
13:24<@Alberth>doesn't openttd have an option to specify where to pull the config from?
13:24<jose>i just saw the option to load savegames...
13:25<@Alberth> -c config_file = Use 'config_file' instead of 'openttd.cfg' ??
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13:26<@Alberth>ie ./openttd -h
13:26<@Alberth>in the worst case, you can make links of the openttd files at different places, I guess
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13:30<@Terkhen>IIRC -c config_file works
13:30<@Alberth>hi Terkhen
13:31<@Terkhen>hi :P
13:34<@Alberth>SiliconValley (v2): SiliconValley <-- interesting description :)
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13:43<NGC3982>Abort on Stratos for today. :(
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24578 trunk/src/lang/norwegian_bokmal.txt (2012-10-09 17:45:08 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 9 changes by Tinman
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14:06<fonsinchen>There seems to be a problem with the build farm
14:07<fonsinchen>Obviously it's run out of space for unpacking the Cargodist source
14:07<fonsinchen>Maybe that should be fixed ...
14:08<fonsinchen>probably we can delete some old revisions
14:08<@Alberth>planetmaker: ^^ ? (ammler does not seem online)
14:08<fonsinchen>actually it seems this is entirely unrelated to the actual place where the finished builds get uploaded to, though.
14:09<fonsinchen>The build farm probably has its own space to unpack and build before bundling it up and saving it on the openttdcoop server. That is probably full.
14:10<@Alberth>oh sorry, you are not speaking of the devzone!!
14:10<@Alberth>TrueBrain: ^^
14:12<@Alberth>alternatively you can send a email to, that will definitely get to the right person
14:13<frosch123>nah, TrueBrain loves being highlighted
14:13<fonsinchen>Nice, there is an email address now ...
14:13<@Alberth>ther has been for many years :p
14:13<fonsinchen>I'll wait some more to see if he shows up and then write the mail.
14:14<fonsinchen>If I had known I had spared myself a lot of useless waiting around in the IRC channel.
14:14<@Alberth>with TB you never know when he turns up
14:15<FLHerne>fonsinchen: I was moaning about that :P
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14:17<Zuu>Hello andythenorth
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14:18<Matulla>Hi im in trouble and i dont know why ->
14:18<Matulla>Train 182 does not move to the station
14:19<Zuu>Matulla: The tracks of the "free" plattform have a reservation.
14:19<Matulla>i used all the time this kind of signals it works on other stations but not here
14:20<Matulla>Zuu: as you say i see also the gray color but why
14:20<@Alberth>something special must have happened here
14:20<Zuu>You can get ride of it by forcing a train to pass over the track.
14:21<Zuu>But it's not something you get without a special reason.
14:21<Matulla>the left track has been modified
14:21<Matulla>from a other trainsystem
14:21<Matulla>so breakdown and rebuild will be a solution
14:21<Zuu>You could remove the possibility to enter the left track and theng use the button to force train 182 to pass the signal.
14:22<Matulla>if i change the sig direction towards 182 train it moves on
14:23<Matulla>i kill the reservated tiles and make new ones see what happesn
14:23<Zuu>Change the tracks so that train 182 only can go straight. Then click on the button with a signal and a red cross on it on the train window.
14:23<Zuu>(if you don't change the tracks first, it may either use your bypass or crash your other train)
14:24<Matulla>i see
14:24<Zuu>When you force a train over a stale resarvation, it will clear the stale resarvation.
14:25<Zuu>However, unless you force it to run over the reservation, it will not do it by itself as the tracks are reserved.
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14:27<@Alberth>you may also stop the other train temporarily, so it does not start suddenly when you don't expect it
14:27<@Alberth>+want to
14:27<TrueBrain>out of diskspace? oh-oh, sounds terrible
14:29<fonsinchen>well, the other plans seem to be OK. I don't know how it's set up but obviously it's not globally out of space ...
14:30<TrueBrain>holy crap
14:30<TrueBrain>the last few have been HUGE
14:30<TrueBrain>2GB ..
14:30<TrueBrain>what the hell did you put in it? :D
14:30<fonsinchen>What are you downloading there?
14:31<TrueBrain>do you ever repack the git or anything?
14:31<TrueBrain>hmm, shouldnt really matter
14:31<TrueBrain>well, it might
14:31<TrueBrain>seems a git checkout is 2GB
14:32<fonsinchen>I can't do that; it's github's job.
14:32<fonsinchen>I think
14:32<TrueBrain>seems it fails at it or what ever
14:32<fonsinchen>mine 66M
14:32<TrueBrain>I now changed it to a shallow checkout
14:32<TrueBrain>hope that works
14:33<TrueBrain>started a compile
14:33<TrueBrain>please validate the result when it is done :)
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14:35<TrueBrain>hmm, no, still huge
14:35<TrueBrain>yeah, .git is 2GB big
14:36<fonsinchen>I'll see if I can trigger a repack on github
14:36<TrueBrain>trying a few things on my end too
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14:40<@Alberth>oddink Wolf01
14:41<TrueBrain>weird, the git checkout is only 9 MiB ...
14:43<fonsinchen>It seems I have to delete the repository and recreate it. They won't garbage-collect it.
14:43<fonsinchen>Argh ...
14:43<TrueBrain>I might have the problem
14:43<TrueBrain>one sec
14:44<TrueBrain>there we go
14:45<TrueBrain>for some reason, it never cleaned the old .git
14:45<TrueBrain>and then git seems to act very very weird
14:45<TrueBrain>I still have it on shallow copy, so lemme know if that poses any issues (think about version detection etc)
14:46<fonsinchen>I'll check when it's built
14:46<TrueBrain>nightly is running, so will be a bit :)
14:46<TrueBrain>and all controllers are offline, so that will be never
14:47<TrueBrain>now I also know why the agents went offline :D
14:47<TrueBrain>I couldnt figure that out .. but it ran out of diskspace, then just stops :D
14:47<TrueBrain>I have to make a new disk specially for builds, so that cannot happen I guess :)
14:51<TrueBrain>fonsinchen: ge8747397-cd, correct version?
14:51<fonsinchen>looks good
14:52<TrueBrain>okay; it is queued .. 2 hours or so, and it will be cooked :)
14:52<TrueBrain>tnx for letting me know :)
14:56<jose>one quick last question.... is there a rcon-command for [>>] fast forward?
14:59<FLHerne>fonsinchen: Is there any inter-version compatibility yet?
15:00<fonsinchen>No. It would be seriously messy to implement that. I don't want to do it.
15:01<FLHerne>Surely that would rule out trunk inclusion?
15:01<FLHerne>Or would the severe messiness not be needed in that case?
15:01<frosch123>jose: there is no fast forward in multiplayer
15:01<fonsinchen>When included in trunk this is no issue anymore
15:01<fonsinchen>Cargodist is compatible to all trunk versions
15:02<fonsinchen>The problem only arises if you want to play a game from a previous cargodist version in a new cargodist version.
15:02<FLHerne>I know that bit
15:03<fonsinchen>(and then also only if trunk has changed the savegame format in between those versions)
15:03<FLHerne>But why would it be easier to make CDist backwards-compatible with itself when it was in trunk?
15:03*FLHerne is curious :P
15:03<FLHerne>fonsinchen: Ah, I didn't know that bit. That's useful
15:03<fonsinchen>because versions are designed to be linear. There is no branching and merging of savegame versions
15:04<fonsinchen>so at some point the old savegame version of cargodist has "branched off"
15:04<fonsinchen>then the main trunk has added some versions
15:04<fonsinchen>then the new cargodist savegame version has branched off
15:04<jose>k thank you, good night...
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15:05<fonsinchen>there is not direct line of "heritage" between the two cargodist versions then
15:05<FLHerne>fonsinchen: That makes sense. Thanks :-)
15:09<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r24579 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt vehicle.cpp) (2012-10-09 19:09:45 UTC)
15:09<@DorpsGek>-Change [FS#5322] (r21961): Show no loading indicator when orders are 'no unloading and no loading' (sbr)
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15:22*andythenorth ponders
15:27*Alberth is quiet
15:27<andythenorth>if an industry newgrf was implemented in python, would it be sane to do each industry as a module?
15:28<andythenorth>there's enough stuff specific to each industry a class might not be enough
15:28<andythenorth>or at least would be messy
15:28<@Alberth>yes, for both industry type and industry instance
15:29<andythenorth>I considered if a class was enough, but there'll be so much sub-classing that I think it would be a headache
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15:32<@Alberth>mixins could be an option
15:33<andythenorth>python has mixins? o_O
15:33*andythenorth googles
15:33<andythenorth>oh multiple inheritance
15:34<FLHerne>andythenorth: Python for NewGRFs is annoying. It makes building them fiddly :P
15:35<andythenorth>"the state of python packaging"
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15:36<andythenorth>FLHerne: it's not that bloody fiddly
15:36<andythenorth>you need python for nml anyway
15:36<andythenorth>it's only chameleon that you have to install
15:37<@Alberth>any computer without Python installed on it is useless anyway :p
15:37<andythenorth>maybe I should learn how buildout works, and provide a buildout
15:37<andythenorth>cba though
15:38<planetmaker>re-writing FIRS, andythenorth ? ;-)
15:38<andythenorth>that would be insane
15:38<andythenorth>just playing 'what if'
15:39<andythenorth>if all the tickets get done, I might rewrite it
15:39<andythenorth>but then...why bother ;)
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15:40<@Alberth>at that point, it is obviously finished, time to move on ;)
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16:36<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24580 trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp (2012-10-09 20:36:31 UTC)
16:36<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5308]: Do not add duplicates to the ban list. (alechz)
16:37<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r24581 /trunk/src/script/api (3 files) (2012-10-09 20:37:20 UTC)
16:37<@DorpsGek>-Doc [FS#5318]: Indicate that the return value for script related order distances is the square of the distance
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16:59<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r24582 /trunk/src/script/api (3 files) (2012-10-09 20:59:29 UTC)
16:59<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r24581): Order distances are not supposed to be compared to map distances
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17:27<@Terkhen>good night
17:27<planetmaker>night, Terkhen
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18:24<dada_>would it be an idea to have orders towards depots automatically be maintenance orders?
18:24<dada_>since that is what they're mostly used for right
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18:28<Jake>You can use them for anything *but* maintenance?
18:28-!-DOUK [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:28<dada_>my point exactly
18:28<dada_>would save me a few precious planck times to not have to check the maintenance button
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause>use the Ctrl key
18:29<dada_>that's interesting to know, thanks
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---Logclosed Wed Oct 10 00:00:37 2012