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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-10-13

---Logopened Sat Oct 13 00:00:41 2012
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01:10<hmmwhatsthisdo>Is there an upper limit on how much an industry can produce that's specific to each industry?
01:11<hmmwhatsthisdo>I have 3 iron ore mines that are linked to a steel mill by rail - two produce 500-600 tons, but one has been hovering under 100 for quite some time and I can't figure out why.
01:11<hmmwhatsthisdo>All have "Outstanding" ratings
01:14<hmmwhatsthisdo>Also, is there a way to force-add a NewGRF to a save? (e.g. one that adds 32bpp trains)
01:15<hmmwhatsthisdo>Oh, nvm about that last question.
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01:29*andythenorth had a lie in
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03:40*andythenorth just remembered that his dream featured Eddi|zuHause
03:40<andythenorth>how odd
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03:46<gynter>Hello, is it possible to keep the server console in foreground, but also log everything to a logfile?
03:46<frosch123>"tie" ?
03:46<frosch123>hmm, or was it called differently
03:47<__ln__>wearing a tie is a good idea, but would you like tee instead?
03:47<gynter>blah tee, ofc
03:47<gynter>sorry, need moar coffee
03:47<frosch123>yeah, "tee"
03:47<__ln__>with sugar and milk?
03:51<@planetmaker>black tee please ;-)
03:51<@planetmaker>good morning
03:51<Rubidium>sorry, I don't golf ;)
03:52<@planetmaker>./openttd -D | tee -a file.log &
03:52<@planetmaker>rather without &
03:52<Rubidium> <- there, one black tee ;)
03:53<gynter>without & yes :)
03:55<gynter>hmm, but why aren't the "dbg:" lines being logged?
03:56<frosch123>maybe they go to stderr, so "./openttd -D |& tee -a file.log"
03:57<@planetmaker>2&>1 missing maybe
03:57<frosch123>|& is like 2&>1
03:57<@planetmaker>didn't know that :-)
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03:58<frosch123>wrong button
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04:00<andythenorth>what does today hold?
04:00<andythenorth>besides boats?
04:02<@planetmaker>wrong window... still not focus for mouse-over enabled. It's getting me more often than nice :-)
04:04<frosch123>yeah, interestingly "focus on mouse-over" is quite important for big screens
04:04<frosch123>in the 90's that behaviour annoyed me a lot, and i always tried to disable it on weird unix machines
04:05*andythenorth can't imagine this
04:05<andythenorth>what are these 'big screens' you speak of? :o
04:05<frosch123>that changes since having at least 2 monitors everywhere
04:05<frosch123>andythenorth: those were you have to turn your head
04:05<frosch123>2 screens, 3, 6...
04:05*andythenorth has A4 paper-sized screen and is sticking with it
04:06<andythenorth>things /me will be moaning about today include:
04:07<andythenorth>- smoke
04:07<frosch123>most impressive about 6 screens is the massive tripod (?) they are attached to :p
04:07<andythenorth>- FIRS templates
04:07<andythenorth>- babies
04:07<andythenorth>which of those can you help with? :o
04:07<@planetmaker>he, sounds impressive, frosch123
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04:11<@planetmaker>But good... now I found focuse for mouse-over :-) Much better
04:12<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I might have a little time... but I got a guest today evening, so not much
04:13<andythenorth>k :)
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04:13<andythenorth>lo Alberth
04:14<@planetmaker>hello Alberth
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04:20<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24587 trunk/src/pathfinder/follow_track.hpp (2012-10-13 08:20:40 UTC)
04:20<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Improve coding style (Juanjo)
04:23<@Alberth>planetmaker: a single file for nml_langcheck is becoming complicated, preferences on what to do (make a subdir in build-common, make a subdir in make-nml, make a new project, are the options I can see atm)?
04:24<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24588 trunk/src/pathfinder/follow_track.hpp (2012-10-13 08:24:28 UTC)
04:24<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: No need to intermingle reservation-checks with railroad checks. (Juanjo)
04:25<@planetmaker>Alberth, I've no problem, if you create a sub-dir
04:25<@Alberth>that would be the simplest, I agree :)
04:26<@planetmaker>if you prefer to have it a separate tool (and there's some reason for that, too), I've no issue with that, either. But it would not help *my* workflow :-P
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04:34<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24589 trunk/src/window.cpp (2012-10-13 08:34:10 UTC)
04:34<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Return early in HandleAutoscroll() instead of nesting ifs.
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04:57<FLHerne>andythenorth: When are plastics plants meant to appear in-game?
04:57<andythenorth>code says 1931
04:58<FLHerne>Ah, ok then
04:58<FLHerne>Must have popped up just now then and I missed it :P
04:58<FLHerne>Was a bit surprised to find one in my 1920s-going-1930s game :-)
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05:16<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24590 /trunk/src (31 files in 3 dirs) (2012-10-13 09:16:20 UTC)
05:16<@DorpsGek>-Feature: More options for the auto-scroll setting. (adf88)
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07:33<andythenorth>why does the GUI for customising vehicle colours have pointless checkboxes?
07:33<andythenorth>all they do is annoy
07:38<@Alberth>I'd have moved the word 'pointless' :p
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09:53<BadBrett>1) what file size do you think is a acceptable for 32bbp grf containing 1 industry? 2) in nml, if the same sprite is loaded twice or is unused, will it still affect the file size?
09:54<Yexo>1) it really depends on the industry, 1 tile without animations is completely different from 10 tiles with lots of animations
09:55<BadBrett>yes i knww
09:55<BadBrett>but i'm using lots of animations
09:55<Yexo>2) unused spritesets shouldn't affect the filesize, but if you use only a single sprite out of a spriteset all of them will end up in the grf
09:55<BadBrett>so the file size seems to get really big
09:55<BadBrett>and i'm looking for ways to reduce it
09:56<BadBrett>4x4 industry, 3 animations frames, extra zoom levels and it's already at 8 mb
09:56<Yexo>for using a sprite twice it depends on too many factors: do you use a spriteset two times or two different spritesets with the same sprites, can nml find a way to reuse the spriteset etc.
09:59<@Alberth>hi yexo, could you please somewhen have a look at nml patch #4299 ( ) and feature patch #4385 ( )
09:59<Yexo>of course
10:00<@Alberth>nml patch tracker seems to be outside the set of monitored entities :)
10:04<BadBrett>ok... i meant, for example, if a spriteset contains duplicates of a certain sprite to make sure that it contains the same number of sprites as another spriteset... would it be better do add empty "dummy" sprites?
10:04<Yexo>I think currently nml will add duplicate sprites to the newgrf in that case
10:04<BadBrett>which should affect the file size i guess
10:05<Yexo>there is a feature request on the issue tracker to change that, but it isn't implemented atm
10:05<BadBrett>i guess a dirty solution would be to use a 1x1 blank png for these sprites
10:06<BadBrett>to keep the size down
10:06<Yexo>if you are sure those sprites are not referenced simply put [] in the spriteset
10:09<BadBrett>ah cool
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10:10<BadBrett>i'll try it right away
10:11<BadBrett>another question... does animations and such affect the memory usage (when the animations aren't active)?
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10:13<Yexo>openttd loads sprite up to sprite_cache_size in memory
10:14<Yexo>so unused sprites are not actively loaded in memory, they might still be there if they are used previously
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10:23<Yexo>infinite news message:
10:26<@Alberth>a nice variant on the "you have news" news :)
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10:30<Yexo>why can't people adhere to a single coding style?
10:30<Yexo>I don't care what style, as long as it's consistent
10:31<andythenorth>forgetful :)
10:31<Yexo>specific case: FS#5333. I really like the example, it's as simple as possible while still demonstrating the exact cause
10:31<Yexo>but reading the code is a nightmare
10:31<Yexo>andythenorth: it's one file with about 60 LOC
10:31*andythenorth ponders what to do next
10:32<andythenorth>sorting out FIRS snow is really unmotivating
10:36<@Alberth>Yexo: It's just like writing documents, you have to learn how to do it, and what not to do
10:36<andythenorth>could a tool be written to migrate FIRS spritelayouts?
10:37<@Alberth>load them in NML, and examine the nodes?
10:38<andythenorth>there are currently two main methods in use, one deprecated
10:38<andythenorth>they need migrating from one to the other
10:38<andythenorth>I have a real block about reading them for some reason
10:38<andythenorth>every time I try to read this code I just see BLAH_BLAH_BLAH(BLAH)
10:38<andythenorth>nothing sticks
10:39<andythenorth>which is a bit silly :P
10:39<andythenorth>they are commented and such
10:42<@Alberth>wrong names used?
10:43<andythenorth>SPRITELAYOUT_NORMAL(THIS_ID(spritelayout_2), THIS_ID(spriteset_ground), THIS_ID(spriteset_2), 48)
10:43<andythenorth>probably not wrong
10:44<andythenorth>an industry tile is probably pretty standard I reckon
10:44<andythenorth>the kind of thing that could be represented by a class easily
10:44<@Alberth>write oonml? :)
10:45<@Alberth>hack/extend nml itself?
10:45<andythenorth>I'm not a good enough programmer
10:46<andythenorth>I think the inevtiable result here is that FIRS will get rewritten in python, at least for tiles
10:49<andythenorth>standard rewrite fallacy :P
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10:56<@Alberth>write a script to transform the old to the new
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11:00<DanMacK>Hey all
11:00<andythenorth>lo DanMacK
11:00<DanMacK>Hey andy
11:01*andythenorth tries to remember how python works
11:04<@Alberth>it just does what you tell it to do :p
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11:07<andythenorth>so if I call a class, it will return whatever the return value from the default representation is
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11:08*andythenorth is trying to avoid having an explicit render() method on a tile class
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11:12<@Alberth>making a class callable just to safe 7 characters makes no sense to me
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11:15<andythenorth>this is why I ask you :)
11:17<@Alberth>just do what you know is the right thing to do ;)
11:19<andythenorth>the right thing to do is learn how these CPP macros work
11:19<andythenorth>instead of adding to the world's code mountain
11:23<@Alberth>hi Terkhen
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11:33<andythenorth>I need some module like or such
11:33<andythenorth>and each industry is just a .py file
11:33<@peter1138>Okay, so I missed Red Dwarf X. Can I watch it online?
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11:41<Prof_Frink>peter1138: "Yes".
11:42<Prof_Frink>Channel Dave has a catch-up service, but it didn't want to send me the activation email.
11:42<Prof_Frink>So I just torrented it.
11:46<andythenorth>if I provide a shebang, a .py file is executable right?
11:46*andythenorth wonders if that works in the context of a CPP include
11:46*andythenorth has invented a horrible way to mash python and CPP together for FIRS
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11:56<FLHerne>andythenorth: Please, not even more hacky build processes... :P
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11:58<andythenorth>FLHerne: why not?
12:01<FLHerne>It's just annoying :P
12:04<andythenorth>anybody know if c preprocessor can include results of a script / executable
12:04<FLHerne>Well, depends if it's hacky in a 'you need lots of seemingly unrelated utils' kind of way I guess
12:08<andythenorth>no obvious mention in docs for including results of a script
12:29<@Alberth>(06:14:48 PM) andythenorth: anybody know if c preprocessor can include results of a script / executable <-- I know
12:29<@Alberth>it cannot :p
12:30<@Alberth>use a sed script :)
12:30<andythenorth>imagine how insane it would be if CPP could do that :P
12:30<andythenorth>it's already hard enough to know what the output will be
12:31<@Alberth>your source is insane, mostly :)
12:31<andythenorth>or just everybody's using CPP?
12:32<@Alberth>let's say all nml newgrf projects at devzone? :)
12:34<@Alberth>it is probably an overestimate, but I don't know a simpler criterium to reduce its size
12:34<supermop>chill's patch pack?
12:34<@Alberth>supermop: ? it's not a nml newgrf project afaik :)
12:35<supermop>i was deliberately misreading the abbreviation for c preprocessor
12:35<supermop>as it would be very insane if chill's patch pack could include results of a script
12:35<@Alberth>supermop: use any newgrf :)
12:39<andythenorth>need to add a python step to the makefil
12:39<@Alberth>andythenorth: what's the state of your changes in nml_langcheck/ ? I'd like to add some output
12:40<andythenorth>I didn't make any changes
12:40<andythenorth>I got blocked by not knowing what to put where ;)
12:40<andythenorth>and baby stuff
12:41<@Alberth>as long as you didn't apply the Chameleon on the baby, it should be ok
12:41<@Alberth>what does the python step do ?
12:42<@Alberth>or do you know how to extend a Makefile ?
12:46<andythenorth>I know how to extend the old makefile, using
12:46<andythenorth>I don't know how to extend the new, better makefile
12:50<@Alberth>oh, it's a horrible meta-Makefile :(
12:51<@Alberth>so what does the step do? create some file from some other file?
12:51<andythenorth>the new step?
12:51<andythenorth>yes, it runs a python build script to template some stuff
12:51<@Alberth>(06:49:20 PM) andythenorth: need to add a python step to the makefil <-- that step
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12:51<andythenorth>needs to run before the c preprocessor step
12:51<andythenorth>I think planetmaker designed the new makefile to be more easily extended
12:53<andythenorth>maybe I just extend scripts/Makefile_nml
12:55<@Alberth> yep :)
12:55<@Alberth>note that the whitespace before 'python' is a tab character
12:55*andythenorth curls
12:57<@Alberth>and you may want to change several names
12:58<andythenorth>outfile and infile? :)
12:58<andythenorth>I'll keep
13:00<@Alberth>nicely consistent with and :)
13:01<andythenorth>so if I have a *lot* of outfiles generated by my script, do I need to track them all?
13:01<andythenorth>or can I do *.extension or something?
13:07<@Alberth>you can make a generic rule based on extension
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13:10<@Alberth>oh, just one run produces everything? then you could use a timestamp file
13:10<@Alberth>or if the processing is fast, just run it always
13:11<@Alberth>if you want to run only processing for the outdated files, you'll need a list of course
13:11<@Alberth>although gnu make also has a * globbing macro to pull names from a directory
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24591 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2012-10-13 17:45:28 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 6 changes by arnau
13:45<@DorpsGek>danish - 73 changes by Knogle
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 5 changes by Rubidium
13:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 5 changes by jpx_
13:45<@DorpsGek>italian - 6 changes by lorenzodv
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14:10<andythenorth>Alberth: the processing should be fast, so how do I run it always?
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14:13<andythenorth>oh that's what a phony target is for :)
14:13<@Alberth>it means 'this is not a file at the disk'
14:14<@Alberth>otherwise it may skip building the target, depending on time stamps of that file
14:15<andythenorth>missing separator
14:16<@Alberth>line 19 starts with a tab
14:16<@Alberth>as with all commands in a makefile
14:16<andythenorth>it's reporting line 8 (the .PHONY)
14:17<andythenorth>.PHONY takes a : according to docs
14:17<@Alberth>oh, .PHONY:
14:17<andythenorth>ha ha
14:18<@Alberth>of course it does :p
14:18<andythenorth>for other grfs I wrote all the python, then had to figure the makefile out later
14:18<andythenorth>this time, I thought I'd do it logically :)
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14:18<@Alberth>doing it in the same way every time is boring :)
14:21<andythenorth>if this works...
14:21<andythenorth> will be interesting
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14:22<andythenorth>I can convert spritelayouts to cleaner templating, and leave all the production logic untouched
14:22<@Alberth>sounds good
14:22<andythenorth>and I can stop moaning about FIRS for a bit
14:24<andythenorth>ho ho
14:24<@Alberth>I am sure you can find new things to moan about :)
14:24<andythenorth>the file extension will be pypnml :P
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14:26<GenCase>When writing a NML file, can one somehow refer to the preexisting base [orig windows grf/opengfx] graphics?
14:26<andythenorth>can't remember how without looking
14:27<andythenorth>Alberth: I'm going to end up with 48 or so py files like all with 20 lines of imports at the top
14:27<andythenorth>is there a better way?
14:27<andythenorth>I could do the first 3 and worry about it later :P
14:28<@Alberth>why make a file for each type of industry?
14:28<andythenorth>they're sufficiently complicated
14:28<andythenorth>it won't be sane to try and do it with say .cfg files I think
14:28<@Alberth>I was thinking to put it all in one file
14:28<@Alberth>or in a few files
14:28<andythenorth>it will be huge :)
14:28<andythenorth>I think
14:29<andythenorth>I could create an Industry Class and subclass it a lot :P
14:29<andythenorth>but I fear spaghetti that way
14:29<andythenorth>I'll just start coding, and then it can be figured out
14:29<@Alberth>sounds better yeah
14:29<andythenorth>much easier to tell me what I've got wrong when I have actual code :P
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14:32<@Alberth>except you have 40+ cases of wrong then ;)
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14:39<@Alberth>hello Wolf01
14:41<andythenorth>how do I do read() with codecs module
14:43<@Alberth> let me see
14:44<@Alberth>handle =, 'r', 'utf-8')
14:44<andythenorth>then call .read()
14:44<andythenorth>I had a stupid path mistake :)
14:44<@Alberth>see also the nml source :p
14:44<andythenorth>I will need some help to remove the dumb things :)
14:45<Yexo>GenCase: in the spritelayout-block the "sprite" property can be set to a number in which case it refers to a baseset sprite
14:45<andythenorth>but first I prove this works o_O
14:45<Yexo>for vehicles there is some property to set to refer to an original vehicle's graphics
14:45<Yexo>so how to do it depends on the exact feature you're working on
14:46<andythenorth>ah, I can do this same as BANDIT, with some dispatcher thing wrapping simple .py files
14:46<andythenorth>later :P
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15:06<andythenorth>let's see what devzone compiler does with FIRS now :P
15:08<@Alberth>it eats it :p
15:09<andythenorth>it fails :)
15:09<andythenorth>forgot to add files :P
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15:22<Jensen1986>hi. Could somebody help my please?
15:23<GenCase>A doctor, maybe?
15:24<FLHerne>Jensen1986: I just found
15:24<Jensen1986>hehe. This would not be the first place i've would ask. But can i use my org saved game from ttd in opentt
15:24<FLHerne>Apparently it depends ;-)
15:25<Jensen1986>Just found that page myself. and that was my problem that all my settetings in my saved game like more passengers pr car and amount of passenger/mail in buldings didn't transfer to openttd
15:26<FLHerne>I don't think OTTD even has those settings :P
15:26<FLHerne>We have newgrfs for that
15:26<Jensen1986>and like i like to say... that sucks.
15:26<Jensen1986>I love this game but dont wanna start all over in opentt
15:27<GenCase>Don't worry, openttd gives you much more possibilities to cheat.
15:27<FLHerne>Jensen1986: Are the things that break game-critical, or just annoyances?
15:28<Jensen1986>There is noting to do but start all over.
15:28<FLHerne>It *might* be safe to add a vehicle newgrf, which would allow passengers-per-car to be different
15:28<FLHerne>Anyway, OTTD has loads of new features to play with :-)
15:29<FLHerne>Might be worth starting over anyway ;-)
15:29<Jensen1986>If you like this game how about capitalism 2?
15:29<FLHerne>Dunno. Haven't played it :P
15:30*FLHerne googles
15:30<Jensen1986>whaaat?? You gotta try it. Old game but still. Way more realistic than this one. But I confess that in the end I allways end up playing ttd
15:31<FLHerne>Looks interesting. If I see a copy anywhere, I'll get it :-)
15:31<FLHerne>There are some fairly realistic grfs for OTTD now though :P
15:31<FLHerne>Seen FIRS? :D
15:31<Jensen1986>Well im off starting all over in opentt thanks guys.
15:31<Jensen1986>FIRS ? Whats that?
15:31<FLHerne>Only adds 31 cargoes and several dozen industry types :P
15:32<FLHerne>FIRS Industry Replacement Set, apparently ;-)
15:32<Jensen1986>ok. Well im gonna try it not. See you
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15:32<FLHerne>See you :-)
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15:48<andythenorth>come back alberth :(
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16:35<Terkhen>good night
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17:48<hmmwhatsthisdo>I have a Factory with two train stations connected to it. (One in, one out) - I forgot to set "unload and leave empty" on the inbound trains, and now my factory is putting goods in the inbound station as well as the outbound station. How can I fix it?
17:49<hmmwhatsthisdo>I tried setting "unload and leave empty" on the inbound trains, but it's still hovering below 20% and putting goods in the inbound station
17:52<Rubidium>the only way is removing the station completely
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17:59<hmmwhatsthisdo>...and that would require me fixing all my trains, huh?
18:00<FLHerne>hmmwhatsthisdo: As in, remove input station, make new one, tell your trains to go there instead
18:00<hmmwhatsthisdo>yea, that's what I though
18:00<FLHerne>If all your trains have shared orders, that's simple
18:01<FLHerne>If they don't, they probably should :P
18:01<hmmwhatsthisdo>they do
18:03<hmmwhatsthisdo>it's just that I had it removed for maybe 2 days in-game and now my empty steel mill has 3500 units waiting
18:04<FLHerne>hmmwhatsthisdo: Why? Just demolish it, put a new one on the same site, ctrl-clicking to stop it becoming the old one
18:04<FLHerne>Or did I miss the problem?
18:04<hmmwhatsthisdo>I did that
18:04<hmmwhatsthisdo>it just caused a little traffic jam is all
18:05<FLHerne>Well, that happens :P
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18:22<hmmwhatsthisdo>If I have to use two bridges in tandem for train lines, am I doing something wrong?
18:24<FLHerne>hmmwhatsthisdo: No, they're broken a bit :P
18:24<FLHerne>There's a hacky patch to put signals on them, but it hasn't been trunked because of the 'hacky' part :P
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---Logclosed Sun Oct 14 00:00:43 2012