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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-10-16

---Logopened Tue Oct 16 00:00:46 2012
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01:15<andythenorth>moin
01:15<Supercheese>salve
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02:37<@planetmaker>moin
02:57<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:04<@planetmaker>hello Terkhen
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03:10<NGC3982>Morning.
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03:32<Knogle>morning
03:32<Supercheese>Salve et tibi
03:41<dihedral>hello
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03:50<Supercheese> Valete omnes, nunc est dormiendum
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03:54<NGC3982>Okidoki
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04:50<@Yexo>good morning
04:54<@peter1138>morning good
04:55<Ammler>morning good, becomming worse
04:55<@peter1138>*becoming
04:57<NGC3982>Ammler: How is that?
04:59<Ammler>clouds arise
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05:08<@planetmaker>clouds arise. winter is coming... http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1794/
05:12<SpComb>nuclear winter
05:12<@peter1138>morning has broken, like my first pee cee
05:19<@peter1138>load avg 0.07
05:19<@peter1138>wonder if it'll break
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05:28<@peter1138>HEAAAAAAAAAART BEAT
05:29<@peter1138>do de do de do de doooooooooo
05:29<@peter1138>actually no E in hart
05:29<NGC3982>Yes, there is.
05:29<@peter1138>nope
05:30<@peter1138>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oYt7mZrzWQ
05:30<NGC3982>Ah, Tony Hart.
05:30<NGC3982>How punnish.
05:30<@peter1138>love the dated cars at 0:34
05:31<NGC3982>Hehe
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05:37<Ammler>becoming better again \o/
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05:43<Eddi|zuHause>there's an e in heart, but no e in hart. very logical.
05:47<@peter1138>vry lgcl
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>depends on if you view y as consonant or vowel
05:48<@peter1138>point. it's a vowel there.
05:48<@peter1138>vr lgcl
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06:48<@peter1138>hmm, when did play.com turn into a seller-finding site?
06:52<__ln__>within a year or so, i guess.
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07:02<__ln__>also their delivery times appear to be many days slower than amazon's
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07:52<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/59rw6.jpg
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08:24<V453000>:DD nice one
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08:41<andythenorth>so here's a thing that was passed on to me from Plone conference (I didn't go, all our devs did though)...
08:41<andythenorth>...Plone projects were usually hosted via svn, trac etc
08:42<andythenorth>...and there were community contributions but a relatively small number of active contributors
08:42<andythenorth>projects that move to github apparently get a substantial increase in community contributions
08:42<andythenorth>[no stats published]
08:43-!-Fremen [~muhweb@178-118-106-89.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Qupada]
08:43<andythenorth>http://collective.github.com
08:47*Terkhen thinks that OpenTTD version for network games does not work with git/hg
08:49<andythenorth>hmm
08:49<andythenorth>probably resolvable :P
08:49<andythenorth>I'm not proposing a move :)
08:50<andythenorth>just passing on info from another big open source project ;)
08:52<@Terkhen>if it is a problem it should be solvable indeed
08:53<@Terkhen>as long as I can keep using hg for development, I don't mind, but maybe a local repo is simpler for integration with the cf
09:04<andythenorth>user bits
09:05<andythenorth>there should be (action-14 style) a way to provide depot gui options to change user bit values
09:05<andythenorth>and all vehicle types should have user bits
09:06<andythenorth>and this should *never* be allowed to be changed at stations
09:08*NGC3982 dances.
09:09<andythenorth>are we human?
09:11<andythenorth>or are we dancer?
09:11<Markk>or are we cancer?
09:11<NGC3982>That song is lame.
09:12*NGC3982 is thinking more ..Men without hats.
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09:16<andythenorth>meh
09:16<andythenorth>no alberth :)
09:19<NGC3982>We can load if we want to, we can drop our load behind
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09:20*Pinkbeast heard a Men Without Hats song that wasn't the Safety Dance at Dead and Buried on Friday, which you basically never do outside Canadia.
09:20<NGC3982>'Cause if it wont accept and if they don't accept, well: They're no station of mine.
09:35<Sacro>http://imgur.com/a/aUoXC
09:37<Sacro>totally openttd related!
09:38<andythenorth>who made it? :)
09:39<Sacro>Found it on Reddit
09:39<Sacro>http://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/z9m9b/can_we_put_this_excellent_infographic_in_the/
09:39<Markk>Ctrl butan <3
09:39<@blathijs>Sacro: It's awesome
09:39<Sacro>blathijs: i know :D
09:39<Sacro>It explains presignals pretty well
09:40<Sacro>haha
09:40<Sacro>"So always shovel shit as far away as possible!!!"
09:41<Sacro>blathijs: long time no see, how goes it?
09:41<@peter1138>It's about four years out of date. Unless you're stuck in the past on #openttdcoop, there's no reason anyone should be using presignals over path signals.
09:42<@peter1138>^ LOL
09:42<Markk>PBS <3
09:42<@blathijs>Sacro: Busy, but still checking this channel every now and then :-)
09:42<@peter1138>path signals +1
09:43<andythenorth>rm the presignals :)
09:43<Sacro>I miss HackeyKid's PBS
09:43<Sacro>blathijs: same, life changes
09:45<@peter1138>eh
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09:45<@peter1138>it wasn't as good as what we've got now
09:46<andythenorth>be nice if current version changed the penalties on a per-vehicle basis when service was needed
09:46<andythenorth>probably insane :P
09:46<andythenorth>but trains often fail to go to depot
09:46<@peter1138>better than them crashing
09:46<@peter1138>which the old version did :p
09:47<andythenorth>ho ho
09:48<@Belugas>hello
09:49<@blathijs>Sacro: #openttd is still one of the blessed channels that got a channel number below 20 (and is thus quickly accessible in irssi) ;-)
09:49<Sacro>blathijs: still '3' for me :)
09:49<@planetmaker>is that general or just for you, blathijs ?
09:49*planetmaker has no clue about irssi
09:51<@blathijs>planetmaker: Just for me
09:51<@blathijs>planetmaker: Channels 1 to 19 are accessible by pressing ESC + a number or a letter on the topmost row on the keyboard
09:52<@blathijs>so those can be easily accessed, while the other channels I have, I need to do /win <number> or ESC + arrow right repeatedly
09:52<Sacro>can't use alt?
09:53<@blathijs>Yeah, but I got used to ESC at some point
09:53<@blathijs>Hmm, actually, alt doesn't seem to work in my xterm either
09:53<si-m1>yea, i use esc aswell, it always works
09:54<si-m1>and you don't have to hold it while pressing numbers
09:54<si-m1>and i'm a vim user
09:54<@peter1138>yeah esc is easier
09:59*andythenorth ponders class Tile(object)
10:00<andythenorth>also
10:01<andythenorth>for date-sensitive industry graphics, handle that withinin the spritelayout, or an earlier switch that chooses a different spritelayout
10:01<NGC3982>blathijs: ESC? :e..
10:02<@Belugas>Tile = Class(TObject)
10:02<@Belugas>ed;
10:02<@Belugas>end;
10:02*Belugas shakes his keyboard... too much coffee drops, i guess
10:02*peter1138 shakes Belugas
10:02*andythenorth has been drinking decaf
10:02<NGC3982>Decaf?
10:02<NGC3982>Sweet jesus.
10:03<NGC3982>I banned decaf across all my solar systems a long time ago
10:03<NGC3982>Sacreligious crap.
10:03<Sacro>?
10:03<Sacro>oh, not me
10:03<NGC3982>Sacroligious ;)
10:04<@peter1138>hehe
10:04<@Belugas>sacré Sacro
10:04<Sacro>Sacrolicious
10:04<@peter1138>sacro bleu
10:05<andythenorth>who understands advanced spritelayouts?
10:06<@peter1138>what's that?
10:06<@planetmaker>a nifty tool
10:06<@planetmaker>sprite: groundtile(slope_to_sprite_offset(0, 0));
10:06<@planetmaker>where you provide a spriteset of 19 groundtiles
10:07<andythenorth>if it can select item n from spriteset according to animation frame, it can presumably also do it by date?
10:07<@planetmaker>basically you supply the offset via var 0x100 or so, peter1138
10:07<@planetmaker>offset into spriteset
10:07<@peter1138>The Islamic Human Rights Commission issues a statement: "The facts are clear, Muslims are extradited, non-Muslims are not. Muslims face detention without charge, non-Muslims do not. In light of government actions it is clear that Muslims are seen as second class citizens in Britain."
10:07<@planetmaker>andythenorth, any arbitrary condition
10:07<@peter1138>islamic... human rights... whut?
10:07<@planetmaker>s/condition/expression/
10:07<@planetmaker>but it must not have return values > 255 iirc
10:08<@planetmaker>but maybe that info is wrong
10:08<andythenorth>that's ok
10:08<andythenorth>hmm
10:08<andythenorth>can it also switch to a different spriteset? :)
10:08*andythenorth could go back to the docs :P
10:08<@planetmaker>ho, one spriteset
10:09<andythenorth>constructing a date-sensitive, animated spriteset would be intriguing
10:09<andythenorth>might be better to switch spritelayout entirely for that
10:11<@planetmaker>sprite: spritesetname(construction_stage + (date<1950)*4 + animation_frame*8
10:11<@planetmaker>add )
10:11<@planetmaker>and ;
10:12<andythenorth>interleaved
10:12<@planetmaker>one way or another
10:12<andythenorth>definitely one option
10:13<andythenorth>not too magical
10:13<andythenorth>point in favour of it
10:16<@planetmaker>it might be easier comprehensible, if you make one sprite per consturction stage and hide them conditionally
10:17<@planetmaker>or one per date condition or even both
10:17<@blathijs>NGC3982: ESC? :e.. <-- what does that mean? :-)
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10:20<andythenorth>I'll do some tests
10:20<andythenorth>I kind of favour letting the spriteset handle animation only
10:21<andythenorth>and do date stuff with a proper switch
10:23<@planetmaker>you may notice that grainmill did exactly that, at least some time ago ;-)
10:26<andythenorth>yes
10:26<NGC3982>blathijs: I never understood the reason for using ESC as a valid key in irssi, or even linux in general.
10:26<@peter1138>why should it be an invalid key?
10:27<NGC3982>As a Windows user, not using it to simply close stuff feels odd and unusual.
10:27<@peter1138>you're "escaping" from your current mode
10:30<@blathijs>NGC3982: In a terminal, I think that ESC + a letter or number actually generates a key sequence similar to alt + a letter or number, really
10:30<@blathijs>NGC3982: So I guess it's more of an artifact of the terminal than an intended hotkey choice in irssi
10:30<NGC3982>blathijs: Yes, it does.
10:30<@blathijs>Not sure, though
10:31<NGC3982>Well sure, there are surely good reasons for using it
10:31<NGC3982>But i don't feel that way, simply.
10:31<NGC3982>For me, that would also imply using right- as left-click, space-bar as delete and "Print screen" to make my monitor explode.
10:33<Pinkbeast>Or Ctrl-Alt-Del as "open the task manager" rather than "shut down immediately"?
10:35<@planetmaker>that kills my x-windows
10:35<Pinkbeast>Errr not C-A-Backspace, planetmaker?
10:35<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: Harr.
10:35<Pinkbeast>But I was pointing out to NGC that the Windows world has been known to change its mind too.
10:36<@planetmaker>maybe. Not trying that now, though ;-)
10:37<Pinkbeast>Well, C-A-Backspace is the traditional X killer.
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11:08<supermop>hi!
11:09<@peter1138>SUPER!
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11:12<andythenorth>DISCOUNT!
11:14-!-LordAro [~LordAro@host217-43-26-41.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
11:14<andythenorth>ho ho
11:14<andythenorth>it's just an nml identifier
11:15<NGC3982>}o/
11:15<andythenorth>so I could chain to a switch for madness
11:15<andythenorth>it doesn't have to be a a spritelayout
11:15<andythenorth>bet you didn't expect that
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12:06*andythenorth invents some new date switch object thingy
12:06<andythenorth>maybe
12:09*Prof_Frink invents a better banana
12:09<andythenorth>what are the features?
12:10<Prof_Frink>Reinforced skin to avoid damage during transportation.
12:11-!-DanMacK [~AndChat61@74.198.9.188] has joined #openttd
12:12<andythenorth>armour banana
12:12<andythenorth>hello DanMacK
12:12<DanMacK> hey andy
12:12<DanMacK>brb
12:12-!-DanMacK [~AndChat61@74.198.9.188] has quit []
12:12<Prof_Frink>Goodbye DanMacK.
12:13<andythenorth>he comes
12:13<andythenorth>he goes
12:13<Prof_Frink>DanMacK doesn't want an armournana.
12:13<Prof_Frink>Hmm, this prototype has a distinct flaw.
12:14<Prof_Frink>You need an angle grinder to open it.
12:14-!-DanMacK [~AndChat61@74.198.9.166] has joined #openttd
12:14<Prof_Frink>hello DanMacK
12:14<DanMacK>There we go
12:15<andythenorth>he's back :)
12:15*DanMacK waves
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12:25<Elukka>http://cdnimg.visualizeus.com/thumbs/dc/2e/artificial_selection,banana,domestication,food,humans,natural-dc2e804177daa25fba41c856b53cadf2_h.jpg
12:25<Elukka>a natural banana
12:26*FLHerne is a bit alarmed by Android-related developments
12:26<Elukka>an armornana
12:26<Elukka>which android-related developments
12:26<FLHerne>Elukka: You missed the 'u' :D
12:27<FLHerne>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=62838&start=40#p1050004
12:28<Elukka>the u?
12:29<FLHerne>In armour :P
12:30<Elukka>my english is a mix of american and british depending on what i feel like :p
12:30<Elukka>same damn thing
12:31*FLHerne is joking
12:32<Elukka>http://i.imgur.com/ecZ6ml.jpg
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12:33<Rubidium>is that Austria?
12:35<andythenorth>it looks incorrect
12:35<andythenorth>the wires are in the wrong place
12:35<andythenorth>how does it get power on the road?
12:36<Rubidium>the panto is extraordinarily high
12:36<Prof_Frink>Oh no it isn't!
12:36<Elukka>messing around with railtypes?
12:36<Elukka>looks austrian to me
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12:55<NGC3982>What's that runned over thingy.
13:03<__ln__>*run, ran, run
13:03<NGC3982>"What's that ran over thingy?"?
13:03<__ln__>a new kind of Straßenbahn?
13:04<NGC3982>Wha'zat.
13:04<__ln__>NGC3982: i'd say the third form is what you're after, so 'run'.
13:05<NGC3982>That immediately made it more logical.
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13:06<Prof_Frink>NGC3982: Broken.
13:08<NGC3982>Harr.
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13:14<@Alberth>woep
13:15<@planetmaker>oddink, Alberth
13:17<ZxBiohazardZx>heya
13:17<ZxBiohazardZx>a few quicky questions
13:17<ZxBiohazardZx>1) where do we store max-loan and a company's current loan?
13:18<ZxBiohazardZx>or get those values
13:18<ZxBiohazardZx>c->???
13:20<@Alberth>grep for 'loan' in the source code does not given any clue?
13:20<@planetmaker>what about GetLoan() or so? ^^
13:20<ZxBiohazardZx>im a utter naab
13:20<@planetmaker>I'd be surprised if anyone knew by heart
13:20<ZxBiohazardZx>trying to get my http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=62970 into pseudo-ready code for a patch/test
13:21<ZxBiohazardZx>changing c-> money >= 0 check to a more complex check for bankrupcy
13:21<ZxBiohazardZx>cause if you lack money but can loan more from the bank then imo you shouldnt bankrupt over not looking down there or being unlucky on 3-4 dates a year
13:21<@Alberth>find bankrupcy news creation would be another entry
13:22<ZxBiohazardZx>bankrupcy news creation is the case3
13:22<ZxBiohazardZx>it checks company value
13:22<ZxBiohazardZx>nothing with loan
13:22<ZxBiohazardZx>my suggestions are up top in that linked topic
13:22<@Alberth>somewhere nearby the code that decides to create news is located
13:23<@Alberth>which gives good clues how things are stored/named
13:23<ZxBiohazardZx>c->bankrupt_asked
13:23<ZxBiohazardZx>but k
13:23<ZxBiohazardZx>ill go check :P
13:24<ZxBiohazardZx>not sure what model i prefer yet, i think 2 is better for multiple reasons (allows to customize it and make it easier/harder based on treshhold
13:24<@Alberth>we don't know the code by heart, we look it up when needed; 300,000 lines of code is bit too much to remember all
13:24<Pinkbeast>Not to try and make you creep features, but why not implement a more sensible idea of credit facilities?
13:24<ZxBiohazardZx>?
13:24<ZxBiohazardZx>and yeah Alberth good point
13:24<Pinkbeast>Well, first, for a quick fix, #1 seems very sensible.
13:24<ZxBiohazardZx>true
13:25<ZxBiohazardZx>1 is just a matter of checking if you can loan more
13:25<Pinkbeast>I don't see any downside at all to #1
13:25<ZxBiohazardZx>but i think 2 is a sexier solution
13:25<ZxBiohazardZx>there is none
13:25<ZxBiohazardZx>1 is way better then current implementation already
13:25<ZxBiohazardZx>but then 2 offers more gameplay value as in providing a difficulty setting
13:25<ZxBiohazardZx>as it takes in effect a tresh-hold AND your loan/maxloan
13:26<Pinkbeast>What I mean by credit facilities is that real (large) businesses negotiate lines of credit and then money is loaned automatically.
13:26<ZxBiohazardZx>so if you have no loan you cant bankrupt (maybe unless your in so much dept it is rediculous)
13:26<ZxBiohazardZx>how about 2 then?
13:26<Pinkbeast>"if you have no loan you can't go bankrupt" seems obviously absurd.
13:26<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah true
13:26<ZxBiohazardZx>just another if
13:26-!-Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd
13:26<ZxBiohazardZx>aka if no load then check for case 1
13:27<ZxBiohazardZx>if no loan, check case 1 (aka max negative money + maxloan > 0)
13:27<ZxBiohazardZx>and if you do have a loan then take that into effect by comparing to a treshhold
13:28<ZxBiohazardZx>(CurrentMoney * (Loan/MaxLoan))+Treshhold Value < 0 that thing
13:28<Pinkbeast>#3 seems not a bad idea. In negative money, pay higher interest; but as long as the company is projected to pay it back, the bank will let you carry on, just not spend any more money.
13:28<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, automatically drawing loan would imho be terrible.
13:28<ZxBiohazardZx>im not saying auto-draw loan
13:28<ZxBiohazardZx>im just suggesting not to declare bankrupt when you forget/can draw loan
13:28<Pinkbeast>planet: I admit it's a bad match with the current ho-ho-you-built-a-$1million-tunnel interface. :-)
13:29<@planetmaker>#3 three is bollocks. Any company starting off would be bancrupted immediately. As you always start with loan only
13:29<ZxBiohazardZx>true
13:29<ZxBiohazardZx>and end/high-game your interest vs income is never fun
13:29<Pinkbeast>You could have a grace period before #3 applies.
13:29<ZxBiohazardZx>makes it harder to implement Pink
13:29<@planetmaker>#2 is implemented now as higher loan = higher interests. So void as well
13:29<ZxBiohazardZx>so i think 1 and 2
13:30<Pinkbeast>#2 seems daft.
13:30<ZxBiohazardZx>#2 makes you go bankrupt more likely when you are on max loan
13:30<ZxBiohazardZx>aka it makes repaying even more beneficial
13:30<@planetmaker>and the point being?
13:30<ZxBiohazardZx>that if you are on a low-loan you dont bankrupt as easily
13:30<@planetmaker>probability in bancrupting companies is... not nice
13:30<Pinkbeast>But by #1 you should only be able to go bankrupt at all when on (or in debt equivalent to) max loan.
13:30<@planetmaker>-1 on that
13:31<Pinkbeast>So #2 does nothing if #1 applies.
13:31<ZxBiohazardZx>atm if you have a 10k/1000.000.000 money you can bankrupt
13:31<ZxBiohazardZx>10k/100.000.000k loan that is :P
13:31<@planetmaker>yes. #2 Doesn't solve that, does it?
13:31<ZxBiohazardZx>yes it does
13:31<ZxBiohazardZx>partially it does actually
13:31<ZxBiohazardZx>see examples
13:31<Pinkbeast>#3 could only apply when max loan is at least x times initial loan, so it can't carry off a starting or small company.
13:31<ZxBiohazardZx>if your negative the same ammount then having a low relative loan is beneficial
13:32<@planetmaker>ZxBiohazardZx, #2 tries to be intelligent. But you can never guess how a player's investment tries to pay off. Keep it stupid. #2 wants to be smart, but is not
13:32<ZxBiohazardZx>see the -10k on 80% relative loan and -10k on 10% relative loan
13:32<@planetmaker>simple rules rule
13:32<ZxBiohazardZx>so then #1 is most easy of them all
13:32<@planetmaker>we have it now very simple: you bancrupt when your cash < 0 for 3 (4?) consecutive quarters on the 1st of them
13:33<@planetmaker>easy to understand
13:33<@planetmaker>easy to grasp
13:33<ZxBiohazardZx>its darn harsh on me always :(
13:33<ZxBiohazardZx>i keep bankrupting by accident
13:33<Pinkbeast>I don't feel that #1 appreciably complexifies it.
13:33<@planetmaker>#1 makes somewhat sense to not bancrupt by chance
13:33<ZxBiohazardZx>i can have -30k on the "checkdate" and +40k rest of the month
13:33<ZxBiohazardZx>it doesnt unflag you
13:33<ZxBiohazardZx>so if you have -XX on 4 bad days
13:33<Pinkbeast>And #3 does make it more complex... but only by giving the player extra grace.
13:33<ZxBiohazardZx>with a peaky income in between
13:33<ZxBiohazardZx>then your screwed
13:34<ZxBiohazardZx>and #1 can even be limited
13:34<ZxBiohazardZx>aka if you forgot to loan 10k then we are like meh
13:34<Pinkbeast>Oh, #3 doesn't bankrupt starting companies at all if it only applies when #1 is also satisfied.
13:34<@planetmaker>that's why I say, that #1 makes somewhat sense to me. But not #2 and #3
13:34<ZxBiohazardZx>but if you forget to loan 40k we are like FU stop being an idiot
13:34<ZxBiohazardZx>fair enough
13:35<Pinkbeast>I see no reason to limit #1. The bank's willing to lend you that money.
13:35<@planetmaker>#1 also doesn't change the complexity of the bancruptcy decision. Just the criterion is changed
13:35<ZxBiohazardZx>hmhm
13:35<ZxBiohazardZx>i think to a more fair criterium
13:35<ZxBiohazardZx>aka you cannot pay your debts
13:35<ZxBiohazardZx>though maybe it needs a limitation
13:35<Pinkbeast>That lets a company with large capital value go on _forever_ in debt.
13:35<ZxBiohazardZx>as having a low loan and a high debt would be benneficial on that one
13:36<ZxBiohazardZx>yes
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13:36<ZxBiohazardZx>hence it needs some sort of limitation
13:36<@planetmaker>anyway... sports. see you later
13:36<Pinkbeast>When the bank ought to foreclose when you have no prospect of making money, before you can bleed away all the capital value it would otherwise get.
13:36<@Alberth>bye planetmaker
13:36<ZxBiohazardZx>cya planet, thx for feedback :)
13:36<ZxBiohazardZx>so hmmz
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13:36<ZxBiohazardZx>maybe #1 with a max-limit?
13:36<ZxBiohazardZx>aka we allow you max 100k negative?
13:37<Pinkbeast>I see no advantage at all to having a max limit.
13:37<ZxBiohazardZx>if you have -400k money and a 500k loan is possible
13:37<ZxBiohazardZx>i think that is being lazy
13:37<ZxBiohazardZx>and its dodging interest
13:37<Pinkbeast>OK... so what?
13:37<ZxBiohazardZx>at what point do we decide its unreal
13:37<ZxBiohazardZx>XD
13:37<ZxBiohazardZx>id say maybe even make it money+9.999
13:38<Pinkbeast>Charge interest (if that is not already done) on all negative cash balances.
13:38<ZxBiohazardZx>so that if you can loan 10k your fine
13:38<ZxBiohazardZx>but not too much
13:38<@Alberth>ZxBiohazardZx: 'real' is not a valid criterium, it is about gaming fun
13:38<ZxBiohazardZx>true alberth
13:38<ZxBiohazardZx>my point being on current bankrupcy you would bankrupt
13:38<ZxBiohazardZx>my new system would allow huge negatives as long as you can take a loan that big
13:38<Pinkbeast>... although if you do want "real", as I said - the bank is willing to lend you the money if you pay the interest.
13:38<ZxBiohazardZx>but we dont want auto-loaning
13:39<Pinkbeast>Why should they care if you do it by loan or by overdraft.
13:39<@Alberth>ZxBiohazardZx: as planet maker said, #1 makes some sense
13:39<ZxBiohazardZx>so im trying to make sure the bankrupcy flag pops on the right moment
13:39<ZxBiohazardZx>yes i agree with it
13:39<ZxBiohazardZx>#1 makes sence, it changes the criterium
13:39<ZxBiohazardZx>but even in #1 you can have gradings :P
13:39<Pinkbeast>ITYM criterion, FWIW.
13:39<Pinkbeast>Those gradings seem a pointless addition to a simple and obvious change.
13:40-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1A8F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
13:40<ZxBiohazardZx>i like to think my change through before i put in my efford of coding it
13:40<ZxBiohazardZx>im a horrible coder
13:40<ZxBiohazardZx>so i have to think out my idea in a superb way :)
13:41<ZxBiohazardZx>so yeah #1 is maybe too easy
13:41<ZxBiohazardZx>"as long as you can loan your fine"
13:41<ZxBiohazardZx>maybe make it a bool (canloanmore) (we already check if your not on max on getting the loan)
13:42<ZxBiohazardZx>hmmz nvm
13:42<ZxBiohazardZx>#1's simplicity is its power
13:45<@Alberth>you drive yourself down the drain, how is that wrong?
13:48<ZxBiohazardZx>dunno :P
13:48<andythenorth>Alberth: :o
13:48<andythenorth>hai :)
13:48<@Alberth>hi andy
13:49<ZxBiohazardZx>hey andy
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14:01<Wolf01>evenink!
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14:02<@Alberth>oddink
14:07<supermop>Why bother making rivers buildable?
14:07<supermop>you can always correct for aesthetics in scenario editor
14:07<FLHerne>supermop: For when you need to move it by a tile or so, and a canal would look silly
14:08<FLHerne>'You can do it in a timeconsuming and inconvenient way' isn't really a counter-argument
14:08<supermop>but if i go out to my local river and want to move it
14:08<supermop>i need to build a canal
14:08<FLHerne>supermop: If you do that with some big diggers, it'll work :-)
14:08<V453000>pointless
14:08<V453000>imo :)
14:08<V453000>I dont use rivers ever
14:08<FLHerne>You can skip the concreting bit though :P
14:09<supermop>and the resulting trench is a canal, whether its 4 feet deep or 100
14:09<supermop>most canals in real life do not have concrete edges
14:09<FLHerne>Artificial rivers do exist :P
14:09<FLHerne>Come over to the Fens, we have loads :-)
14:10<supermop>but an artificial river that a ship can pass through is still a canal
14:10<FLHerne>Anyway, in OTTD the only difference *is* the lack of edging :P
14:10<supermop>regardless of how it was made or how curvy it is
14:10<FLHerne>Yes, but a canal isn't an artificial river :P
14:10*FLHerne would like artificial rivers :P
14:11<FLHerne>Well, some canals are artificial rivers, but not the ones in OTTD currently
14:12<supermop>how would an artificial river be different in game?
14:12<@Alberth>:{BLACK}Current production: {YELLOW}normal {}{}{BLACK}Supplies requir... <-- andythenorth, why the spaces before {} ??
14:13<supermop>would it have a different speed for ships than canal?
14:13<supermop>if rivers could have current - that would be interesting
14:14<FLHerne>supermop: No, just graphics (and price, maybe)
14:14<FLHerne>Current would be nice, but that's different
14:14*FLHerne would like current :-)
14:14<supermop>probably require lots of cpu as you'd need a pathfinder of some kind to produce a guess for water direction on each tile
14:16<supermop>and would need to recalculate everytime a new tile of water was added or removed to the river to determine if it changes flow
14:16<supermop>or even every time a tile was raised or lowered in its watershed
14:16<supermop>to determine if the river gets more rain or less
14:17<supermop>town growth also would increase flow - all that paved surface leads to rain entering the channel more quickly
14:18-!-roadt [~roadt@60.168.95.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:19<FLHerne>That would be overkill :D
14:19<@Alberth>andythenorth: Also, with 1X, "within 3 months", is that relevant?
14:19<andythenorth>possibly not
14:19<andythenorth>the supplies rework is...unfinished...
14:19<andythenorth>I don't recall a reason for the extra space {}
14:20<andythenorth>usually there's a reason, but it might just be a mistake
14:20<supermop>or maybe the ship pathfinder just guesses the water current of the channel it is in
14:20<supermop>if heading toward a lock down, or sea increase speed and vis versa
14:21<supermop>at least then you are only calculating for channels that have boats in them, but separately for each boat
14:22<supermop>we should probably calculate land and water areas to model some wind currents for aircraft and sailboats
14:22<FLHerne>Perhaps just pathfind to the nearest sea tile, and assume current is the other way?
14:22<@Alberth>unfortunately, the path finder won't know where it goes until it reaches the sea or lock
14:23<FLHerne>Alberth: Why? :P
14:23<@Alberth>and what if you have contradicting directions?
14:23<supermop>and then change windsock and smoke sprites accordingly
14:23<FLHerne>That's why I said 'closest' :P
14:24<@Alberth>FLHerne: it does incremental steps, and does not revisit tiles it already visited
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14:24<FLHerne>Does that matter? Presumably it must remember what the route was, or it would be a pointless PF :P
14:24<@Alberth>'closest' implies you're doing path finding as a child algortihm to path finding
14:25<supermop>better model geology to approximate aquifers too
14:25<@Alberth>yep, it stores the previous tile as part of each tile
14:25<FLHerne>Just check if an adjacent tile is a sea tile, then if an adjacent tile to any adjacent watertile is a seatile... blah
14:25<FLHerne>Would be slow :P
14:25<andythenorth>wtf are smoke sprites?
14:25<supermop>andythenorth: hehe
14:26<andythenorth>Alberth: feel like code reviewing any of my new python code?
14:26<@Alberth>I am translating your firs strings
14:26<@Alberth>how much is it?
14:27<@Alberth>your new language reports are very useful :p
14:27<andythenorth>my new language reports? :P
14:28<supermop>also deleting a tile of river to cut it off should result in it flooding and finding a new path
14:28<andythenorth>Alberth: it's here http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/sprites/nml/industries/grain_mill.py
14:28<andythenorth>I'm planning to move the common stuff to one or more other modules
14:29<andythenorth>but I figured code review before I do too much more :)
14:29<andythenorth>the commenting style sucks
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14:29<supermop>andythenorth: I am accidentally playing a game with two versions of fish in it
14:30<andythenorth>happens
14:30<andythenorth>will work fine
14:30<supermop>i noticed that the boats are cheaper in one
14:30<andythenorth>yes
14:30<andythenorth>also the buy menu looks bad in one of them
14:30<supermop>very long purchase list
14:30<andythenorth>ask about eddi's buy menu fix :P
14:30<supermop>i find i use the island trader too much though
14:31<andythenorth>everyone does
14:31<supermop>there is too big of a gap from the boats smaller than it up to the really big boats (1000 t or so)
14:31<supermop>trader is like 320?
14:31<andythenorth>basically I could remove everything but that boat
14:32<supermop>i think there are some river barges between, but i'd like to see the odd modern (1950+) 500t boat
14:32<supermop>or a less seaworthy boat similar in size to the trader
14:32<supermop>i don't know enough about ships to know what that could be
14:33<@Alberth>indenting looks weird around line 109 and further at similar places
14:34<@Alberth>always interesting to name 'coords' 'sprites' :p
14:34<supermop>i am using the log rafts though!
14:34<supermop>down a river actually
14:35<supermop>where they perversely travel faster upstream than down
14:35<@Alberth># optional zextent value, will default to 16 if this param is omitted <-- i'd expect a comment in this direction at entries without zextent
14:36<@Alberth>supermop: there must be rivers that flow up in OpenTTD :)
14:37<supermop>heh
14:38<supermop>something like the tsubasa freighter but bigger would be nice
14:41<andythenorth>oh yeah, indenting is weird there
14:42<andythenorth>think I did a find-replace :P
14:42<andythenorth>ta
14:42<andythenorth>]
14:42<@Alberth>andythenorth: code looks pretty good imho, I had a wicked plan to allow layout specification like in the paste http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1795/ lines 16-19
14:42<supermop>that japanese thing that is like the cargosprinter -container emu
14:42<supermop>how does that work? it runs on overhead, seems like the wires would get in the way of unloading the containers
14:42<supermop>and if it gets pulled into the siding by a diesel shunter
14:42<supermop>whats the point?
14:43<andythenorth>Alberth: ho, using the actual spaces to specify position? :o
14:43<@Alberth>spaces is just for you, the machine uses "," and ";"
14:43<andythenorth>ha
14:43<andythenorth>so it's a type of matrix
14:44<@Alberth>a diagonal one
14:44<andythenorth>could work
14:45<andythenorth>I need to extend the layout to specify the tile too
14:45-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
14:45<andythenorth>the string there is the nml identifier for spriteset / next switch
14:45<@Alberth>hi Zuu
14:46<andythenorth>lo Zuu
14:46<Zuu>Hello
14:47<Zuu>If a GS is allowed to create industries by bypassing the NewGRF industry probability veto, can that break the NewGRF badly?
14:47<@Alberth>obviously, you can have arbitrary text instead of numbers, except to look somewhat convingly diagonal, the identifiers should be short
14:47<Zuu>This probability function is not used by the map gen.
14:47<andythenorth>k
14:48<andythenorth>so if I clean up this code, it can template any common case for climate-sensitive, animated industry graphics
14:48<@Alberth>Zuu: afaik there are 2 probabilities, one for map creation and one for play
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15:01<@Alberth>andythenorth: STR_EXTRA_FERTILIZER_PLANT: +chemicals at the end ?
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15:26<andythenorth>Alberth: yes good spot
15:26<andythenorth>Zuu: that's a whole can of worms :D
15:27<andythenorth>(a) in the case of FIRS, the probability breaks the newgrf anyway :P
15:28<Zuu>Of course, it may give the situation when the GS can override the industry placement restrictions of the NewGRF. Such problems are to expect if the GS can override the NewGRF.
15:28<andythenorth>(b) GS should be allowed to fund industries
15:28<andythenorth>there are various options
15:29<Zuu>However, unless that badly breaks normal NewGRFs, I don't see that its a problem.
15:29<andythenorth>for example FIRS allows players to fund pretty much anywhere
15:29<andythenorth>be careful not to over-ride the *tile* checks though :o
15:29<andythenorth>that would be very bad
15:30<Zuu>I only override this one "GetIndustryProbabilityCallback(it, IACT_USERCREATION, 1) == 0)"
15:31<Zuu>What that translates to in NewGRF terms is beyond my knowledge :-)
15:31<andythenorth>not sure anyone uses that yet anyway :P
15:31<andythenorth>so might be moot point
15:31<andythenorth>it's a recent addition
15:32<Zuu>The other override is that GS always "fund" industries instead of "prospecting" them. In terms of that they can always specify a tile that they wish the industry to be placed at.
15:33<Zuu>But there is no override of the further checks that apply when an industry is funded by a company.
15:34<frosch123>Zuu: i guess you should overrule a newgrf saying "zero", i.e. "no construction"
15:34<frosch123>the rest likely does not matter
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>note that this is also a matter for the default industries (the tropic lumber mill has an appearance chance of 0)
15:36<frosch123>*not
15:36<frosch123>damn :/ missing a negation is bad :)
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15:37<Zuu>The actual patch is here for those of you who read code: http://devs.openttd.org/~zuu/gs-industry.patch
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the industry construction callback needs a value for "random creation" "player creation" and "script creation"?
15:39<frosch123>+ if (_game_mode != GM_EDITOR && _current_company != OWNER_DEITY && GetIndustryProbabilityCallback(it, IACT_USERCREATION, 1) == 0) { <- i don't think you should override that
15:39<frosch123>i am even surprised it is allowed in editor :o
15:39<Zuu>frosch123: I was not sure if that is a good idea which is why I asked here :-)
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15:39<frosch123>it would allow gs to plant plastic plants in 1400
15:40<frosch123>which probably would cause bug reports :)
15:40<frosch123>gs would have no idea to tell the difference
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15:42<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the GS could have a flag "force creation anyway"?
15:42<Zuu>I've not looked at it in detail but I suspect at least this return will cause a different error type than a construction that is failed due to "site usuitable"
15:42<frosch123>Zuu: you seem to forbid DEITY to prospect industries
15:42<frosch123>and make them to always fund them
15:43<frosch123>+ if (_game_mode != GM_EDITOR && _current_company != OWNER_DEITY && _settings_game.construction.raw_industry_construction == 2 && indspec->IsRawIndustry()) {
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15:43<frosch123>if you want to give the gs both options to either fund or prospect, you need do pass something via the command parameters
15:43<Zuu>frosch123: Yes, because otherwise I would need to pass that information to the DoCommand method.
15:43<frosch123>to distinguish the two cases
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>maybe GS could prospect if tile==0, otherwise fund?
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15:44<Zuu>But I have been thinking about trying to do that as allowing a GS to prospect could be useful.
15:44<Zuu>Not because its impossible to emulate, but to spare GS authors from having to implement that.
15:45<andythenorth>so
15:45<frosch123>well, if ottd needs 5000 tries to plant an ecs industry, a gs will take 10 years :p
15:45<andythenorth>there are good and bad reasons to refuse an industry
15:45<andythenorth>bad = too close to other industries etc
15:45<andythenorth>good / bad /s for that one
15:45<andythenorth>hmm
15:45*andythenorth needs a beer
15:46<andythenorth>this discussion always hurts my head
15:46<andythenorth>just allow GS to do everything imho
15:46<supermop>good plan
15:46<supermop>the beer that is
15:46<andythenorth>screw newgrf authors
15:46*andythenorth is 99% serious
15:46<andythenorth>industry newgrfs have been accorded way too much privilege
15:46<andythenorth>but industry newgrfs are incapable of providing proper gameplay
15:46<andythenorth>so let GS do it
15:47<andythenorth>so we break some stuff
15:47<andythenorth>[shrug]
15:47<Zuu>Hmm, taking a new look at the parameters, even the p1 parameter seem to have free bits, so I do not even need to abuse the text parameter to send a "fund"/"prospect" bit.
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15:48<frosch123>usually the docs at the top are correct for commands
15:48<frosch123>they were looked at very critical multiple times :)
15:48<Zuu>Last time I looked on this was like two weeks ago and my vague memory said that there was a problem to fit in that bit, but it appears to not be the reason why I chosen this path
15:49<andythenorth>derailing the topic
15:49<andythenorth>can we kill subtypes?
15:49<andythenorth>or at least substitute user bits for the roles that subtypes are being abused for?
15:49<andythenorth>with a depot-only 'change arbitrary properties' gui
15:49<Zuu>If you ask me, yes. But others may dissagree.
15:51<andythenorth>they're known broken for at least one case (somewhere on FS), they're silly
15:51<andythenorth>and the purposes they're used for (liveries, regearing, vehicle length, etc) are not well served by subtype
15:52<andythenorth>and autorefit 'breaks' lots of those features
15:52<andythenorth>and autorefit is way better for gameplay than subtypes
15:52<frosch123>andythenorth: stop annoying :s
15:53<andythenorth>:P
15:55*andythenorth rant over
15:55<andythenorth>pub :)
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16:21<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r24597 trunk/src/bootstrap_gui.cpp (2012-10-16 20:21:14 UTC)
16:21<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5336]: when fontconfig is not available, the bootstrap download crashed
16:32<@planetmaker>hm... I wonder whether that was the issue with osx having it crash, too
16:32<TrueBrain>I understand you do hope that :D
16:32<@planetmaker>I'll try tomorrow... lappi is in the office
16:32<Rubidium>planetmaker: unlikely
16:33<@planetmaker>TrueBrain, not sure... I recon I usually compiled with fontconfig
16:33<Rubidium>-#if defined(ENABLE_NETWORK) && defined(WITH_FREETYPE) && !defined(__APPLE__)
16:33<Rubidium>+#if defined(ENABLE_NETWORK) && defined(WITH_FREETYPE) && !defined(__APPLE__) && (defined(WITH_FONTCONFIG) || defined(WIN32))
16:33<frosch123>maybe they stopped defining __APPLE__
16:33<Rubidium>the crashy code is already excluded if __APPLE__ is defined
16:33<@planetmaker>well, yes. As bootstrap is excluded for apple for reasons of crashyness
16:33<Rubidium>frosch123: but then more stuff would've broken
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16:34<frosch123>Rubidium: isn't that the case? :p
16:34<Rubidium>frosch123: stdafx.h is littered with defined(__APPLE__)
16:35<Rubidium>so if Apple doesn't define __APPLE__, much more things will be broken
16:36<__ln__>and not only in openttd
16:40-!-PhoenixII [~ralph@f72217.upc-f.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:42<@Alberth>maybe apple stopped being __APPLE__ :p
16:44<__ln__>it's an absurd idea that after 20+ years apple would suddenly stop defining __APPLE__. end of discussion.
16:44<@Alberth>haha!
16:45<LordAro>that's never stopped them before...
16:56<+glx>they would at least declare it obsolete before dropping it
16:57<FLHerne>glx: Really?
16:58<+glx>yes like they do when they totally change UI systems
16:58<__ln__>FLHerne: Really. It's not Linux kernel.
16:58<+glx>every new OSX version deprecates many APIs from previous versions
16:59<+glx>and the next one just drop them
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17:01<__ln__>and by contrast, Microsoft never drops anything from the WinAPI. good and bad sides in both approaches.
17:01<+glx>and you are forced to rewrite things that used to work again and again
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17:02<+glx>that's why it's hard to find an OSX maintainer ;)
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17:03<__ln__>basically yes, but you can compile against an older SDK, so you can stay at the level of at least one or two releases earlier than the current OS you're running.
17:07<Rubidium>I think OSX and maintainer are mutually exclusive
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17:09<__ln__>@seen Bjarni
17:09<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 1 week, 3 days, 20 hours, 50 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
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17:14<BadBrett>4-4 :)
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17:28<@Terkhen>good night
17:28<@planetmaker>night Terkhen
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17:38<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Wed Oct 17 00:00:48 2012