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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-10-18

---Logopened Thu Oct 18 00:00:50 2012
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01:19<Supercheese>Did I see a new release candidate is in the works?
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01:54<hmmwhatsthisdo>Who's in charge of the Android port of oTTD?
01:59<@peter1138>The author of it, I suppose.
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02:16<hmmwhatsthisdo>peter1138: wasn't sure if it was a team
02:17<@peter1138>It might be.
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02:31<@Terkhen>good morning
02:31<Supercheese>salve, excitate
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03:54<@planetmaker>hmmwhatsthisdo, in other words: non of the official devs did the android port. in tt-forums you'll find a thread of its author though
03:58<@peter1138>urgh, 268 junction combinations
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05:04<@Yexo>good morning
05:04<@Yexo>hmmwhatsthisdo: I have been working on a new android port based on SDL2
05:05<@Yexo>that will still require quite some work in fixing the interaction between OpenTTD and SDL2, no idea how much time that'll take
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05:20<@planetmaker>peter1138, I don't think that 268 junction combinations is a problem per se. But your point with level crossings, bridges , stations and tunnel portals is very important
05:23<@peter1138>planetmaker, only that 268 doesn't fit into a byte, if you felt like caching it
05:23<@peter1138>personally i'd ban 180 degree bends ;)
05:23<@peter1138>but i don't think that'd go down all that well
05:24<@planetmaker>180° bends... what's a 180° bend?
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05:26<@peter1138>have i messed sound zoom level attenuation?
05:26<@peter1138>toyland seems very loud even when zoomed out o_O
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05:42<Rubidium>for what it's worth, aren't the images affected by the neighbouring tiles? Then what happens when those bits of tracks are sloped? Does that create yet another explosion of states? Also... shouldn't those changes be made gradual in the same way for tracks?
05:47<@peter1138>just don't bring smooth slopes into it ;)
05:47<@peter1138>oh maybe you did
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07:40<Rubidium>peter1138: ofcourse I did ;)
07:41<TyrHeimdal>Are there plans for autoreplacement of trains to new rail-types?
07:42<NGC3982>You mean: Replacing a diesel Engine with a Maglev engine?
07:42<NGC3982>That would also demand being able to change depots while engines are parked.
07:42<TyrHeimdal>It's a real pain to convert, but ofv you know that :)
07:42<TyrHeimdal>yes, true
07:43<TyrHeimdal>you can convert a depot with trains in them, right?
07:45<NGC3982>Nope, you cannot.
07:46<NGC3982>That is why this is problematic.
07:46<NGC3982>And as far as i feel about it - It's good as it is.
07:46<NGC3982>They game can't do everything for you. ;-)
07:47<TyrHeimdal>hehe, I agree, but this is one thing I realy could do without ^^
07:47<TyrHeimdal>ofc, an option would be to start at a year with maglev
07:47<NGC3982>I guess you could use the Universal Railtype NewGRF.
07:47<TyrHeimdal>and play from there...
07:47<NGC3982>If you can handle Maglev trains running on nineteen century rails. ;-)
07:51<NGC3982>TyrHeimdal: In a personal perspective (not reflecting the actual reasons for not enabling cross-railtype engine conversions), i do feel like the need for new depots and new trains kind'a reflects a realistic view on building new trains on new systems.
07:52<TyrHeimdal>NGC3982: I agree with you there, but it would be nice as an option
07:52<NGC3982>In a way, it feels more real to build a new facility when creating futuristic magnetic trains, instead of nineteen century cast iron steam junk.
07:52<TyrHeimdal>I'm playing the game to build and learn to create the networks, and make them more and more complex
07:52<NGC3982>And the fact that you can convert Railway > Electric railway suggests that someone else also had that in mind.
07:53<NGC3982>TyrHeimdal: True. An option would be neat, i guess.
07:53<TyrHeimdal>I don't get anything out of changing out hundreds of trains and set up all the new orders
07:53<NGC3982>TyrHeimdal: Though, i highly recommend Universal Railtype GRF for that, until then. ;-)
07:53<TyrHeimdal>Thanks, I'll look into that :)
07:53<NGC3982>It should be in the online content, afaik.
07:54<TyrHeimdal>I'll check when I get back home from work
07:54*NGC3982 waits for someone to chew him out after that "nineteen century cast iron steam junk" part.
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09:13<@planetmaker>TyrHeimdal, there are no plans for that. Other than what is possible. You can autoreplace without trouble a steam engine with an electified
09:14<@planetmaker>Use compatible track types and it's no issue. Incompatible track types is a feature. Not a bug or missing feature
09:14<@planetmaker>It's the oh-so-often asked-for realism (there, I said it, the bad bad r-word)
09:14<@planetmaker>(and yes, non-electrified and electrified tracks ARE different track types)
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11:08<andythenorth>it is raining
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11:12<LordAro>evening ladies
11:12<@planetmaker>a statement which seldom is wrong, andy ;-) (if ever)
11:12<@planetmaker>hi LordAro and andy
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11:14<V453000>it is raining beer
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11:17*andythenorth has to use the word 'artist' in connection with a newgrf :P
11:18<V453000>it is doable in some cases :p
11:19<andythenorth>I dislike it :P
11:19<andythenorth>but me
11:20<@planetmaker>why do you *have* to use it (and don't say 'author' or 'contributor')?
11:21<andythenorth>specific to sprites
11:21<andythenorth>I tried using the word 'painter', it looked silly :)
11:21<@planetmaker>painter :-P
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11:22<V453000>pixel drawing fits better than painting though I think
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11:23<V453000>for newGRF in general I would just use author as pm suggested
11:24*andythenorth changes it
11:24*planetmaker pulls a drawer from the desk's drawer :-P
11:24<andythenorth>author :P
11:25<V453000>still, pixel art is a valid category too :P
11:26<V453000>at least that specifies how do you make the newgrf ... you could also be voxel ARTIST, or modeller :p
11:28<@peter1138>when will people faking tilt/shift realise that the focal plane needs to be constant?
11:32<bolli>How long is a piece of string surely?
11:32<Pinkbeast>"Drawn by"?
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11:51<NGC3982>Evening, democrats and deamons.
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12:45<DanMacK>Hey all
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13:08<@Alberth>hi hi
13:09<andythenorth>lo Alberth
13:14<LordAro>hai Alberth
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13:35<@Alberth>hi di hi Wolf01
13:35<Wolf01>hello o/
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14:23<@Alberth>right, what would it take to teach NML about parent/child sprites?
14:33<frosch123>in spritelayouts, or in basesets?
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14:34<@Alberth>base sets
14:34<@Alberth>at least that seems like a better approach than manually figuring it out :)
14:34<andythenorth>nml school :)
14:34<frosch123>you would have to code stuff from ottd source (i.e. src/table) into nml
14:34<frosch123>there is no algorithmic method to it
14:35<frosch123>you have to make some table of parent and child sprites, and what offsets ottd applies to them
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14:35<andythenorth>Alberth: template it from a .cfg file? :P
14:35<andythenorth>or is that lame?
14:36<@Alberth>I was thinking to add a new statement for expressing that
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14:36<frosch123>so more like adding image postprocessing to nml sprites?
14:36<@Alberth>ie something like "parent_child(<parent>, <child>)"
14:36<frosch123>add transparency on this or that side
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14:38<@Alberth>it should have the sizes and the offsets, so extending the parent seems quite doable
14:38<frosch123>it does not have the offsets
14:38<frosch123>you would have to specify some range for that via some syntax
14:38<@Alberth>what offsets?
14:39<frosch123>what does your "it should have" refer to then?
14:39<@Alberth>every sprites has an offset, so I wonder what offset you refer to
14:40<frosch123>those between parent and childpsrite
14:40<frosch123>they are not in the grf
14:40<@Alberth>I have set the position of all sprites
14:40<frosch123>for basesets they are hardcoded in ottd, unknown to the outside without looking up in the source
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14:41*Alberth looks what's actually in the table
14:41<frosch123>for nml spritelayouts there can be formulas, and nml will have a hard time to detemine the range of them
14:41<frosch123>check stuff like _draw_industry_spec1 and _drawtile_proc1
14:42<frosch123>all those special functions in industry_cmd.cpp, esp. wrt. toyland industries
14:43<@Alberth>extending the parent sprite so it it covers the child sprites is not enough?
14:43<frosch123>it is, but you do not know where the child sprite is positioned inside the parent sprite
14:44<frosch123>and the animations even move that position
14:44<frosch123>to make nml the job, you would at least need some method to specify the min and max values from the tables _draw_industry_spec1 and similar
14:45<@Alberth>oh, child sprites are not all relative to (0, 0) of the parent? hmm :(
14:46<frosch123>and even when it is not about basesets, also normal spritelayouts of industies or houses in nml can use formulas to position sprites relatively
14:46<frosch123>Alberth: they are all positioned relatively to (0,0), but there is an additional dynamic offset
14:47<frosch123>if the offsets would be fixed, how could it be animated :)
14:47<@Alberth>right, so much for this idea then :(
14:47<@Alberth>have different sprites with different relative offsets
14:48<frosch123>all you can do is extending nml to add transparency to sprites (amount specified manually via the nml source), to save you from having to use gimp or some other tool
14:48<frosch123>there is only one lift sprite :) ottd moves it along the house in 12 steps or whatever
14:48<@Alberth>doesn't seem very worthwhile
14:49<frosch123>also there is only one sieve sprite and toy sprite, and toy factory stamp
14:52<@Alberth>thanks :)
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15:29<ktns>When placing an airport to send and receive passengers, does it matter how many houses are in the coverage area?
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16:41<@Alberth>Yexo: how do you envision the interface between NML and a web translator?
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16:41<@Yexo>not, or rather the same as in openttd
16:41<@Alberth>that is, by files
16:42<@Alberth>I agree on that :)
16:42<@Alberth>should the string file have strings that need no translation?
16:42<@Yexo>it needs to be possible to compile source offline, so it cannot depend on some online translator
16:43<@Alberth>yeah, also, you want to store them in a repo
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16:43<@Yexo>as for strings without translation: I don't care much either way. I don't think the percentage of strings that will definitely never need a translation is high
16:44<@Yexo>but in the end I think this is up to how/if a web translator supports that, nml can accommodate afterwards
16:44<@Alberth>my reason for adding is that somewhere you need to add that information, and in a translator does not seem the right place
16:44<@Yexo>that's a question: is that really necessary?
16:45<@planetmaker>Alberth, I *can* imagine that the web translator gets write access to the repos directly on the devzone
16:45<@Alberth>those strings do change
16:45<@planetmaker>so that it can commit them and needs no intermediate storage
16:45<@Alberth>planetmaker: yeah, but I like bitbucket so much
16:45<@planetmaker>except maybe temporary for 24h or so
16:45<@planetmaker>how does bitbucket do it?
16:45<@Alberth>a random repo hosting site
16:46<@Alberth>or openttd has its own repo
16:46<@planetmaker>Alberth, from the webtranslator's side it only needs login+pw to commit
16:46<@planetmaker>and URL of course
16:46<@Yexo>also: personally I don't care one bit about nml projects not on the devzone
16:46<@planetmaker>so, would work there, too
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16:46<@Yexo>with regards to a possible webtranslator at least
16:46<@Yexo>you want that service: host on the devzone and adhere to it's license requirements
16:47<@Yexo>don't want to? Host your own webtranslator
16:47<@Yexo>but that's just me
16:47<@planetmaker>possibly that would simplify some things
16:47<@planetmaker>though some interface of WT and projects would be needed anyway
16:48<@Alberth>seems like a sane idea, but depositing changes directly in the project repo sounds a bit too direct to me atm
16:48<@planetmaker>Alberth, once 24h?
16:48<@planetmaker>only needs a bit caching then
16:48<@Alberth>you need caching anyway
16:48<@Yexo><Alberth> those strings do change <- for OpenTTD it works to have those "untranslatable" strings in all translations
16:49<Rubidium>there aren't many strings that are always the same
16:49<Rubidium>except the obvious ones like JUST_STRING and friends
16:49<@planetmaker>URL, some non-text strings
16:49<@Yexo>I think for nml projects that's the same, there won't be that many of them
16:49<Rubidium>but the translators rarely see those strings as those can be 'pretranslated'
16:50<@Alberth>FIRS has a number of year strings, which change when the industry introduction changes
16:50<@Alberth>Rubidium: but that's manual work, while adding a flag would automate it away
16:51<@planetmaker>however, I don't think it matters to have translators translate every single string. Even those where it doesn't really make sense, Alberth
16:51<@Yexo>firs can as well be changed to put those years in the code instead of the language file
16:51<@Yexo>that might be a better solution anyway
16:51<@planetmaker>especially as NML takes care to not include it in the actual grf
16:51<l403>Hello. I am running gentoo building openttd from ebuild openttd randomly freezes leaving the system unstable and reboot is needed afterward. I've tried with gdb attached strace attached but no wierd errors there, openttd also doesnt spit any errors in console. The process itself becomes inkillable. HOwever someone suggested running valgrind to see if there are any errors there but with valgrind attached it just wont freeze as normal which is sometimes
16:51<l403> within few seconds still in the menu or after an hour during a game. Can anyone suggest what to do to find what the problem is?
16:51<andythenorth>I have one issue with chameleon for templating: it html escapes some chars
16:51<andythenorth>which is tedious
16:52<@Yexo>l403: if your system is unstable I'd say your system is broken, no application should be able to cause that
16:52<andythenorth>Yexo: FIRS can move the years into code, no problem
16:52<BadBrett>jackpot! the pros are here 8)
16:52<@Alberth>l403: perhaps trying to use sound?
16:53<Rubidium>l403: try running OpenTTD with allegro instead of sdl to try to rule out sdl being broken
16:53<l403>Yexo, I have not experienced this behavior with any other application
16:53<l403>I have sound disabled but I can try different graphics
16:53<@Alberth>l403: compiler version?
16:53<l403>dmesg also doesnt complain about anything
16:54<@Alberth>Yexo, planetmaker: ok, thanks for the discussion
16:54<l403>Alberth, gcc 4.5.4
16:54<@Yexo>Alberth: for the record: even if my above opinions might sound strong, I'm willing to give a lot of room to the person actually implementing a webtranslator tool
16:54<@planetmaker>oh, Alberth, and when you feel like a testing environment... we can give you a VM to toy with
16:55<@planetmaker>full root and what you need
16:55<@Alberth>l403: "inkillable" usually points to a kernel (driver) problem
16:55<@Yexo>l403: gcc 4.5 is known to be broken, do you have another version installed?
16:55<@planetmaker>and... yes, let me emphasize also what yexo just said wrt "much room" :-)
16:56<l403>Alberth, I was also thinking kernel problem but since I cant get any error messages anywhere I dont know where to start
16:56<@Alberth>Yexo: knowing how devs respond, they sound quite reasonable to me :)
16:56<Zuu>Do NML projects use the same layout as GSs with a lang directory which include english.txt etc.?
16:56<andythenorth>near enough
16:56<@Yexo>Zuu: yes (only english.lng instead of .txt)
16:56<Zuu>Eg would it be easy to offer this tool also for GS projects?
16:57<@Alberth>planetmaker: I am not even near that point, but thanks :)
16:57<@Yexo>and yes
16:57<@planetmaker>well, it's an offer I don't plan to expire, Alberth ;-)
16:57<@Yexo>Zuu: GS lang directory was modelled after OpenTTD's, as is nml's structure
16:58<l403>Alberth, Yexo I dont have any other gcc but I can get 4.4.7 for example. does that sound good?
16:58<@Alberth>planetmaker: even if you did, I'd still ask when I needed something like that :)
16:58<@planetmaker>:-) good!
16:58<@Yexo>nml is lacking in string code support due to limitations in the grf spec, but that should be the main difference
16:58<@Yexo>l403: yes
16:58<andythenorth>ho ho
17:00<@Alberth>Zuu: it should be generic enough to handle AIs , GSs, NewGrfs, and even openttd itself, imho
17:00<@Yexo>l403: this is the gcc bug report, it is not fixed in gcc 4.5, but gentoo might have added custom fixes
17:00<@Yexo>so using 4.4 might not help, but I'd be good to rule out that problem
17:01<@Yexo>although now I think about it, it's probably not that since you say you can sometimes play for an hour
17:01<Zuu>Alberth: great, although AI support will be hard or easy depending on how you see it as AIs don't support translations.
17:02<l403>Yexo, thanks. I'll take a look
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17:03<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.2.2, 1.2.3-RC1
17:03-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.2, 1.2.3-RC1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
17:06<andythenorth>"nml is so bracing"
17:06<@Alberth>try LISP instead :p
17:07*andythenorth has solved more things
17:08<Zuu>Try something truly scope-less for a change. :-p
17:08<andythenorth>like nfo? :)
17:08<andythenorth>I guess nfo has scopes
17:11<Zuu>Yea, like single-purpose languages only invented for use within an application.
17:11<Rubidium>what is nfo? If it's the stuff GRFCodec just assembles, then I guess it's effectively scopeless. If it's the meaning of the bytes of the GRF as read by OpenTTD, then it has scopes
17:13<andythenorth>I think of it as unscoped for action IDs
17:13<andythenorth>and scoped for the items that have 'this item' or 'related item' etc
17:14<andythenorth>but meh
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17:15*andythenorth needs a faster nml
17:15<@Alberth>try building a 32bpp baseset every now and then :)
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17:16<andythenorth>FIRS is about 20s, and I build it every couple of minutes :P
17:16<Rubidium>full zbase is an hour
17:17<Rubidium>which is annoying when you want to do some sprite offsets or so
17:17<Rubidium>ask Alberth about the toyland industries
17:17<andythenorth>partial compilation? :P
17:17<@Yexo>does that include use of the sprite cache or is that a full rebuilt?
17:18<Rubidium>it luckily only compiles the needed files
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17:18<Rubidium>and the sprite cache helps lots
17:18<Rubidium>bringing it down to like a minute when there are barely any changes
17:18<Rubidium>mostly due to "copying" a 200 MiB file
17:19<@Yexo>I wonder how much speed could be gained by rewriting nml in c++
17:19<andythenorth>what about pypy ?
17:21<@Alberth>yexo start with the backend of handling the images
17:21<Rubidium>and the code to emit the GRF?
17:22<@Yexo>yep, that could work
17:22<@Yexo>first change nml to it generates the "base" part of the grf (all non-image sprites) and a list of {filename, offsets) for real sprites
17:22<@Terkhen>good night
17:23<@Yexo>then write c++ code to translate that to a file instead of using the current python code + spritecache
17:23<@Alberth>Yexo: just hook pieces of C into nml
17:23<@Yexo>Alberth: it has to be quite a big part, hooking a too small part causes too much overhead with the python<>native conversions
17:24<@Yexo>I've tried that already with an lz77 implementation in c
17:24*andythenorth tries to figure out how to get the FIRS makefile to use grfcodec
17:24<@Alberth>use cython may also be an option
17:25<@Yexo>it certainly was a nice project to learn python, but looking back I wouldn't start with python now
17:25<@Yexo>(and that's not just because of performance reasons)
17:25<andythenorth>doing it in python got you some commits by me :)
17:25<@Alberth>nml has grown quite a lot I think
17:25<andythenorth>and I have learnt some of the format by just reading source
17:25*Yexo missing static typing
17:26<NGC3982>Im sorry, but how does the Openttd site know what kind of CPU i use?
17:26<@Alberth>yeah, that's the biggest problem of bigger non-trivial Python programs
17:26<@Alberth>NGC3982: OS version?
17:26<andythenorth>NGC3982: it checks some user agent properties
17:27<NGC3982>andythenorth, Alberth: Is that supplied by my browser?
17:27<andythenorth>i.e. your browser yes
17:27<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
17:27<NGC3982>A tad suprising.
17:27<@Alberth>NGC3982: yes, it gives a lot of information
17:28*andythenorth -> bed
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17:31<Guest1496>Yexo: why not python, btw?
17:32<@Yexo>as I said: no static typing (which is fine for small projects, but for me quickly becomes annoying the more a project grows) and speed
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17:32*Guest1496 shrugs
17:33-!-Guest1496 is now known as Xaroth
17:33*NGC3982 finally upgrades to 1.2.2
17:33-!-Xaroth is now known as Guest2295
17:33<@Yexo>will you wait on 1.2.3 before you upgrade to 1.2.3-RC1?
17:33<Guest2295>grr, stupid nickserv
17:34<NGC3982>Yexo: I ..don't know.
17:34<NGC3982>Im not really following the updating structure of OpenTTD
17:35<@Alberth>good night
17:35<@Yexo>good night
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17:37<xaroth>Yexo: the non-static-typed nature of Python can also be used for it's advantage, but I do agree that at times it can be annoying as fook
17:37<xaroth>and speed, well, things can be optimized
17:38<@Yexo>sure, but only to a certain extend
17:38<xaroth>for a long time EVE online ran both client and server(cluster) fully on python
17:38<xaroth>so optimizations can go a long way with python
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17:39<@Yexo>sure, but as soon as you go number-crunching / image processing you can't beat a lower-level language
17:39<xaroth>but that's what the native bindings are for
17:39<xaroth>well, the image processing part at least
17:39<NGC3982>Where can i alter the setting of if "Go To" should be unmarked or not, after setting a destination in the order window?
17:39<TinoDidriksen>Stackless Python...not normal Python.
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17:42<xaroth>TinoDidriksen: Microthreads are hardly useful for something like NML
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17:42<TinoDidriksen>No, I meant EVE uses Stackless, not bog standard Python.
17:42<xaroth>yes, they use it for the microthreads
17:42<xaroth>but the main point remains
17:43<xaroth>optimization in python is key
17:45<@Yexo>nml is not just a bit too slow, it's several orders of magnitudes slower than I think is possible
17:48<@Yexo>NGC3982: Advanced Settings -> Interface -> Quick creation of vehicle orders
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17:55<@Yexo>good night
17:55<BadBrett>why not just use a GUI to automatically set the offsets like I do?
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18:03<NGC3982>Yexo: Oh, thanks.
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20:06<dar11808>hello fellow tycoons
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 19 00:00:33 2012