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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-10-19

---Logopened Fri Oct 19 00:00:33 2012
---Daychanged Fri Oct 19 2012
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02:09<andythenorth>FIRS has a very useful looking SLOPE_AWARE_SPRITELAYOUT, but no industries seem to use it
02:09<andythenorth>Terkhen planetmaker any recollection of that? :)
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02:14<Rubidium>can't that be meant for a forest-type industry that you removed?
02:16<andythenorth>I think it's intended for farms
02:16<andythenorth>which currently use foundations for farm fields
02:16<andythenorth>on hillsides
02:16<andythenorth>looks silly
02:18*andythenorth wonders how fences work
02:18<andythenorth>probably just a conditional hide sprite, based on neighbouring tile type
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02:58<@Terkhen>good morning
02:58<@Terkhen>andythenorth: IIRC it was for forests and/or farms
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03:08<andythenorth>Terkhen: I'll figure out what it does and update it for python :)
03:08<andythenorth>might finally get used :)
03:10<andythenorth>maybe I should document the new methods :P
03:10<NGC3982>Is there a possibility to construct a NewGRF that alter industry production (or type of production) based on what kind of station-tile i build next to it?
03:10<andythenorth>dunno if anyone else has time to help me anyway though :P
03:10<andythenorth>NGC3982: not really
03:10<NGC3982>Hm, ok.
03:10<NGC3982>I had this dream about "build your own industry"-GRF
03:10<andythenorth>could change production based on 'station or not station'
03:10<andythenorth>I think
03:11<andythenorth>it would require shenanigans
03:11<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
03:11<NGC3982>I feel somewhat inspired after using FIRS or ECS with the industry station renewal set.
03:18<andythenorth>Terkhen: does any of this make sense to you? Trying to figure out how much to document...
03:20<TyrHeimdal>I started playing a single-player game with FIRS this week...
03:21<TyrHeimdal>man, that is complex and time consuming to build for alone
03:21<NGC3982>FIRS is nothing compared to ECS in my book
03:22<NGC3982>That maximum delivery cap is hard as stone.
03:22<TyrHeimdal>haven't seen ECS, checking it out now
03:22<NGC3982>TyrHeimdal: Im actually running an early FIRS game on my server if you want to try it out. :)
03:23<andythenorth>TyrHeimdal: when I'm done recoding FIRS, there'll be an option for simpler versions (fewer industries)
03:23<TyrHeimdal>andythenorth: cool
03:23<NGC3982>andythenorth: No! Make moar! mooaaar! *on knees*
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03:24<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I'll check that when I'm back home, a phone is not a great tool for reviewing... those objectified industries look nice, though :)
03:24<TyrHeimdal>making a screenshot of my current map now
03:25<NGC3982>TyrHeimdal: Otherwise, :-)
03:25<TyrHeimdal>I have learned a lot already, building better and better. Started rather horribly I must say.
03:26<TyrHeimdal>hmmm...saving a giant screen shot on 2kx2k sort of made openttd non-responsive ^^
03:26<andythenorth>Terkhen: thanks :)
03:26<andythenorth>NGC3982: exactly how can you add MOAR to FIRS? o_O
03:27<andythenorth>it's already pretty much MOAR to the max
03:27<NGC3982>Well, i do love cargo chaining.
03:27<NGC3982>Or what'za callit.
03:29<andythenorth>it's pretty much at the cargo limit
03:29<NGC3982>What limit?
03:29<andythenorth>32 cargos
03:29<andythenorth>FIRS has 31
03:30<NGC3982>Well, the number of cargos are fine, that's not it.
03:30<NGC3982>Or well, nothing is "it", ECS and FIRS are fantastic
03:30<NGC3982>But because they are grand and allows absurd builds
03:34<TyrHeimdal>hmmm... a giant screenshot of a huge map....didn't expect that sort of filesize ^^
03:38<Rubidium>try opening it in your favourite image editor
03:38<TyrHeimdal>client crashed :/
03:38<@planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, the slope awareness was for farms and forests and alike. But never really used
03:38<TyrHeimdal>it stopped on 1186Mb
03:38<Rubidium>hallihallo planetmaker
03:39<andythenorth>planetmaker: I'll rectify that soon :)
03:40<@planetmaker>did I read correctly that firs has no forests anymore?
03:42<andythenorth>I'm done making big changes to industries and cargos
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03:42<andythenorth>I'm working to get snow sprites done, then economies
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03:47<@Terkhen>andythenorth: feel free to steal as much industry chain code from OpenGFX+ Industries as you need... it might not be directly useful because of the "language" change, but it may still show how we solved the problems with industry customization via parameter
03:50<andythenorth>Terkhen: does it use a lot of action 6 and such?
03:51<@Terkhen>no idea, it is nml... I barely remember nfo :P
03:52<@Terkhen>lots of if elses with complex condions based on parameters and relationship within industries and cargos
03:53<andythenorth>ok :)
03:53<andythenorth>I'll have a look
03:53*andythenorth -> work
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04:05<TyrHeimdal>hmmm, seems windows picture viewer has some trouble opening this 1.2Gb png...
04:06<NGC3982>Afaik, it has to load everything into your RAM
04:07<NGC3982>And that can lead to trouble.
04:07<TyrHeimdal>well, it crashed after 5-6 minutes
04:07<TyrHeimdal>photoshop opend it in under a minute
04:07<TyrHeimdal>and reserved 1.9Gb RAM
04:08<TyrHeimdal>so i call bad code from MS
04:08<Warod>Waay back then I kind of figured out why NASA shared few huge photos in uncompressed format... I decided back then that .jpg would be much more space efficient and handy so I compressed the 3 GB image as 70 MB JPG with my quite new, powerfull 350 MHz machine. It turned out to be a bad idea. The compressed image was never viewable again with any rig back then. ;)
04:09<Warod>hmm.. it would be very nice to find the jpg though.. and see how bad it'll be on current hardware. ;)
04:12<NGC3982>and.. Oh.
04:15<TyrHeimdal>hmmm, will the screenshot look very weird if I rotated the image 45 degrees?
04:16<TyrHeimdal>it would save a lot of uneeded pixels
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04:27<andythenorth>NGC3982: tried it with CHIPS?
04:27<NGC3982>I know i have CHIPS downloaded, but i can't remembed what it does..
04:28<NGC3982>Oh darnit
04:29<NGC3982>Yes, i should have used that on the server aswell
04:29<NGC3982>Looks fantastic.
04:42<NGC3982>dihedral: o/
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04:52<dihedral>Alberth, \o/
04:52<@Alberth>what did I do?
04:52<@Alberth>or you are just happy to see me? :)
04:53<@Alberth>how are you?
04:54<NGC3982>"Is that a rabbit in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?"
04:55<NGC3982>I have a train that loads both and Goods
04:55<NGC3982>I want it to go to location B filled with both
04:55<NGC3982>The industry at location B accepts, but not goods.
04:55<NGC3982>I wich to unload the to the industry, but transfer the goods to the station.
04:55<NGC3982>Is that possible?
04:56<@Alberth>technically yes, but not in a simple way, I think
04:57<@Alberth>ie one solution that should work is to visit the station twice
04:58<NGC3982>Yes, ive already tried that
04:58<NGC3982>But that's not ..right.
04:58<@Alberth>I agree it is not optimal :)
04:59<@Alberth>since automagic refit, people are inventing more crazy cargo loading/unloading schemes all the time :)
04:59<@Alberth>the order window needs to be extended, but attempts I have seen so far are very complicated
05:00<@Alberth>which is partly understandable, as the amount of settings is just staggering
05:00<dihedral>i was just saying hello in my own weird way
05:01<@Alberth>ok :)
05:01<NGC3982>Hehe, indeed.
05:02<andythenorth>Alberth: we just need magic cargo routing :P
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05:03<@Alberth>that may be the better solution in the end, as it makes most of the order window obsolete :p
05:03<@Alberth>except there is no nice magic algorithm yet :(
05:03<@peter1138>yacd please
05:04<@Alberth>peter1138: yacd++ probably :)
05:05<andythenorth>routing layer
05:05<andythenorth>cargo destination generation layer
05:05<@Alberth>it needs a cheaper routing algorithm, which in my view is in spreading the calculation in time
05:05<andythenorth>I liked the 'just go downhill on the link graph' idea :P
05:05<andythenorth>give each node an elevation
05:06<andythenorth>cargo always follows gravity
05:06<@Alberth>peter1138: something in that direction may work
05:06<@Alberth>andythenorth: it just shifts the problem to finding out where the hill is supposed to be
05:07<andythenorth>that's easy :P
05:07<andythenorth>a programmer does that bit right?
05:07<andythenorth>I'm just the ideas person
05:08<andythenorth>I'll give you 50% equity in my idea, but you have to make it all
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05:08<andythenorth>I'll keep 50% for having the idea
05:08<Rubidium>but with gravity all cargo goes to a (few) sinkholes
05:09<andythenorth>not with destinations :P
05:09<andythenorth>you need a linkgraph for each destination-cargotype pair
05:09<andythenorth>might suck for PAX
05:09<@Alberth>if your idea includes a properly working solution at algorithmic level, you can have the 50% :p
05:09<andythenorth>works for industries I think
05:09<andythenorth>Alberth: I don't have it yet, but you can add your email address to our mailing list
05:10<andythenorth>I'll let you know when it's released for beta :P
05:16<@Alberth>you can tell and it will arrive at my doorstep somewher in December
05:17<NGC3982>That mail actually seems to exist.
05:17<@Alberth>I'll be so happy :)
05:17<@Alberth>NGC3982: of course it does!
05:22<Rubidium>just sent a letter to Belugas (or any other Canadian) which they can post to Santa Claus, North Pole H0H 0H0, Cananda (interestingly... the first H is for Metropolitan Montreal)
05:22<Rubidium>so by deduction, Montreal is on the North Pole
05:22<@planetmaker>maybe Santa Claus is a relative of belugas? ;-)
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>just one problem... most of us are actually closer to the north pole than he is :p
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05:29*NGC3982 is a bit close
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>the south border of canada is about the same latitude as south germany
05:30<NGC3982>I guess im in level with northern canada or something.
05:30<NGC3982>Yes, but that's Canada
05:30<NGC3982>It's bloody humongous.
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>but most of the population lives at the south border
05:31<NGC3982>Afaik, im on the same coordinates as the most southern tip of Greenland
05:32<NGC3982>Sorry, on the same latitude.
05:33<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: the southern most Canadian border is more like north Spain
05:33<NGC3982>The tips is a 60.09, im at 58.
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>Montréal: 45°30'N. Bordeaux: 44°50'N. Zürich: 47°22'N
05:36<Rubidium>I reckon if you 'draw' a line 100 km north of Montreal you already have covered the majority of Canadian citizens
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>1° ~ 111km
05:36<NGC3982>Canada is freaky.
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05:39<Eddi|zuHause>that would put only Terkhen [and the odd person from the USA or brazil] more southern than Belugas
05:40<Rubidium>the 3 northern 'provinces' (more than 1/3 of area, less than 1/300 of population)
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06:34<Noldo>I live in 61° N
06:35<Noldo>And everybody knows that Santa lives in Finland
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>to the average american, finland is basically the same as north pole :p
06:40<Noldo>pretty much
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06:50<drac_boy>any of you know of any sites a bit like but for other types of german passenger trains instead?
06:50<Rubidium>for the average American, Santa lives in Alaska
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07:10<bolli>don't be silly! Santa lives in london.
07:14<l403>is there a way to show stations coverage when its alrady built?
07:15<@Alberth>simplest solution is to open the build station window, select the same size, and hover on top of the existing one
07:16<lugo>there's a patch for that
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>the patch was kinda abandoned when it turned out that catchment area didn't work the same way as the patch author expected
07:30<@planetmaker>the interesting question also is: what do you want: catchment (as in delivered to station by industry) or delivery (as in delivered from station to industry)
07:31<@planetmaker>that those two are not the same is IMHO one of the really obscure things and very hard to communicate and certainly not intuitive
07:31<drac_boy>don't forget also that just because an industry is within the catchment does not mean the actual cargo tile is touched too. thats one rather annoying thing I don't even like about the game industries tbh
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07:32<Eddi|zuHause>a weird inconsistency is that the station builder shows both incoming and accepted cargo, but the station window only the accepted, not the incoming
07:32<@planetmaker>doesn't help there, yes
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07:33<@planetmaker>maybe that's an easy change, Eddi|zuHause ;-)
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have time for easy changes, though :)
07:35<TyrHeimdal>that's something I've been wondering. Must the station coveer the entire industry, or is one tile enough?
07:35<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause it might be because to send a train to pick up something, you already can see it waiting there but to drop something off...theres no indicator of that hence why it shows that in the dialog
07:36<TyrHeimdal>like, will it deliver the full ammount to the station even if the industry isn't completly covered?
07:36<drac_boy>TyrHeimdal some industries are any tiles other have very specific tiles (eg oil refinery only accepts oil on like 1/4 of its footprint but other like coal mine can use any tiles)
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: but you don't see anything before you send a wagon to pick it up
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>(depending on your settings)
07:36<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause probably because you actually enabled an extra option
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>... which is enabled by default
07:37<drac_boy>I usually leave that one off as it was meant from default. to our own
07:38<@planetmaker>TyrHeimdal, for delivery of cargo FROM industry TO station: one tile is sufficient. For acceptance of cargo from station to industry, you might need to cover the tile which accepts the cargo
07:39<@planetmaker>by default no cargo is delivered TO a station. As such you don't know what you could in principle pick-up on an existing station
07:39<@planetmaker>only the cargos it'd accept
07:40<drac_boy>bt OT but I always find it too funny to see a player that always uses 'always unload' even for custom industries like PBI and you wonder why they got a lot of cargos waiting at the station and less profits
07:45<NGC3982>andythenorth: Does bringing food and alcohol to a hotel increase the output of passengers?
07:45<TyrHeimdal>planetmaker: ok, thanks
07:46<Markk>NGC3982: Maybe babies.
07:46<TyrHeimdal>I made a screenshot of my enitre 2kx2k map in hopes of getting some pointers on improvements. Soon figured out it would be... inpractical :P
07:47<@planetmaker>agreed. 2k^2k maps are impractical
07:48<TyrHeimdal>I like the space!
07:48<Markk>I like to play on quite huge maps or really small, not really anything in between.
07:49<@planetmaker>I prefer the possibility to play the map for several hundret game years over much unused space :-)
07:50<TyrHeimdal>how do you combat engine brake downs on long ML best?
07:51<Markk>Turn breakdowns off.
07:51*drac_boy usually do 1920-2050 on 128x256 through 512x512 maps
07:51<TyrHeimdal>Markk: I loled :P
07:51<Markk>I bloody hate break downs.
07:51<TyrHeimdal>is it possible to turn them off after game start?
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07:52<Markk>Difficulty settings
07:52<dihedral>why do java developers wear glasses?
07:52<Markk>Under the Settings icon.
07:52<Rubidium>dihedral: boring...
07:52<TyrHeimdal>to prevent them from scratching out their own eyes?
07:52<dihedral>because they don't see sharp
07:52<TyrHeimdal>close enough :P
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>i always d flat
08:01<andythenorth>NGC3982: hotel just produces PAX at a constant rate
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08:03<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
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08:13<TyrHeimdal>what's the best way to get rid of goods?
08:13<TyrHeimdal>a few small-ish trains to a lot of towns?
08:14<NGC3982>"get rid of"?
08:14<NGC3982>It's one of the most profitable products of the game
08:14<NGC3982>I usually use big trains and longer distances
08:14<TyrHeimdal>what's the best way to get awsome income from goods?
08:15<TyrHeimdal>yeah, but a town will stop accepting goods if it gets to much delivered, right?
08:16<NGC3982>No, it doesn't.
08:16<TyrHeimdal>but it used to, right?
08:16<TyrHeimdal>or have I been dreaming..?
08:16<NGC3982>Towns that stop accepting goods is based on rating, and what houses exist in the vicinity of the station.
08:16<NGC3982>See this thread for references:
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08:18<NGC3982>Keeping a good rating will also keep your town accepting goods, if they did when you first started shipping it.
08:18<TyrHeimdal>so if the towns are set to not grow, and a station accepts goods, then it will allways accept it?
08:18<TyrHeimdal>since it won't change?
08:18<NGC3982>I guess so, yes.
08:35<BadBrett>i'm getting the weirdest results now... when i added a second tilelayout to a industry, that uses different spritelayouts and spritesets... it's like the second tilelayout overwrites the data from the first one, because the first tilelayouts contains spritelayouts from the second tilelayout... but i've double checked and everything seems to have unique names
08:35<BadBrett>any idea?
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08:55<@planetmaker>if you did what you say, would see what you'd expect ;-)
09:07<BadBrett>i'll check again then
09:08<@planetmaker>generally: make it easy to help you. Your question doesn't make it easy. It makes it as difficult to help you nearly as it can be
09:09<@planetmaker>but it's you who wants the help
09:09<@planetmaker>debugging doesn't work without the (complete) code which you try to debug
09:09<@planetmaker>thus minimally working examples which don't do what you expect to do are the best thing to ask questions about
09:10<@planetmaker>(thus include code+lang+required graphics which just need throwing nml at it to test results)
09:10<@planetmaker>just saying
09:11<BadBrett>yeah i know, but the code is so long that i would have to rewrite it... i'm pretty sure i've made a mistake somewhere, i just wanted to ask first if this was a common problem :)
09:11<@planetmaker>2nd best (but much easier for the author, thus you) is the full source
09:12<BadBrett>if i don't get it to work, i'm gonna post the code on the forums
09:12<BadBrett>like i did with my non-working animations :)
09:12<@planetmaker>that's not a "minimally working example"
09:13<@planetmaker>nor any working example
09:13<BadBrett>well... um... ;)
09:13<BadBrett>i'm doing my best :)
09:14<@planetmaker>and honestly, that's why I read it and thought "oh well, too complicated to test as I need to write a whole grf around it to check"
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09:49<@Alberth>moin Belugas
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10:03<@Belugas>hello Alberth :)
10:18<TyrHeimdal>FIRS...: when a stockyard states 3t pr 8t manufactoring supplies delivered and 5t pr 8t livestock delivered. 8t pr 8t when both are delivered withing a month of each other.
10:19<TyrHeimdal>does that requre 3t and 5t respectvily, or will 1 unit + 5t do the trick?
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10:26<@Terkhen>1t and 1t each month will cause a 8t->8t for both cargos IIRC
10:27<TyrHeimdal>that makes everything a bit simpler
10:28<TyrHeimdal>Terkhen: thank you :)
10:28<@planetmaker>yes. each cargo needs to be supplied 1t per month. Then conversion will be 1:1
10:29<@planetmaker>for all other tons
10:29<@planetmaker>of whatever cargo
10:29<TyrHeimdal>sounds more like a bug then a feature, really :)
10:29<@planetmaker>it's a feature
10:29<TyrHeimdal>don't get me wrong, I'm glad it works like that :)
10:29<@planetmaker>requiring exact cargo ratios is a very very very very very very very big PITA for gameplay
10:32<TyrHeimdal>i know
10:32<TyrHeimdal>I set up trains for that in my game currently
10:32<TyrHeimdal>at least started
10:32<TyrHeimdal>approximations to number of cargo cars of each to get as close as possbile
10:33<TyrHeimdal>on the same engine that is
10:38<@Alberth>now hope each car has the same amount of cargo loaded :p
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10:42<TyrHeimdal>I did the calculations in a spreadsheet and calculated how many tons a car held of each type, then set up the train with as close to the ratio as possible :)
10:42<TyrHeimdal>then did a full load all at a central pick-up-point
10:42<@planetmaker>full load all or any?
10:43<TyrHeimdal>no point if "any" :)
10:43<TyrHeimdal>but, like I said, this makes it a lot easier
10:45<TyrHeimdal>example: milk delivery - 5 cars * 30t milk + 3 cars * 25 crates of manufactoring supplies = a ratio of 0.595238. The optimal ratio was 0.6.
10:45<TyrHeimdal>so rather close
10:46<TyrHeimdal>Guess I'll go for some sort of "hack" now. Just found the delivery truck trick
10:46<@Alberth>I never make such calculations :)
10:47<TyrHeimdal>well, I guess that's becouse their not needed :P
10:47<TyrHeimdal>I stand by my first choice :P
10:48<@planetmaker>TyrHeimdal, the (IMHO) easier way to balance this is to use trains with one cargo only. And send different amounts of trains with the two required cargo to the respective station. But for low amounts your approach might be better
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10:51<TyrHeimdal>planetmaker: but it's no point in balancing it, is it?
10:51<TyrHeimdal>so I'll remove the crate cars from my milk trains
10:51<TyrHeimdal>and deliver the minimum ammount by other means
10:54<@planetmaker>TyrHeimdal, as long as you make sure that at least one vehicle per cargo arrives each month there's no point with FIRS to balance it
10:54<@planetmaker>the advantage of a mixed train is that you can be 100% sure that each cargo arrives each month
10:55<TyrHeimdal>could ofc just down scale it to 1 car + the main delivery
10:55<@planetmaker>so it might be a good thing. Maybe I'd make trains such that they have one wagon of the other cargo :-)
10:55<TyrHeimdal>right ;)
10:56<@planetmaker>then you can ship the amounts of cargo you want of each type but at the same time make sure always to have both delivered
10:56<TyrHeimdal>Do you use vehicle groupings normaly?
10:56<@planetmaker>well. shared orders
10:56<@planetmaker>grouping ... often
10:56<TyrHeimdal>Yeah, I use shared orders
10:56<TyrHeimdal>why groups?
10:56<@planetmaker>to quickly look at all wood trains for instance
10:57<@planetmaker>e.g. to replace also their engines only
10:57<TyrHeimdal>so you group by type of cargo
10:57<efess>and to quickly replace all wood tranis
10:57<@planetmaker>grouping criteria depend on the game. On my goals, TyrHeimdal
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11:55<andythenorth>ho ho ho
11:57<Rubidium>H0H 0H0 ;)
11:58<andythenorth>is that a model train scale?
11:59<Rubidium>nope, a postal code in Canada
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12:04-!-ToBeFree is "Tobias "ToBeFree" Frei" on #openttd #oolite @+#linux #oolite-dev
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12:27<@Alberth>nice and simple imho
12:29<@planetmaker>yes... but easily jamming for moderate to heavy traffic
12:31<@peter1138>not jamming
12:32<@Terkhen>andythenorth: WRT, it looks understandable to me
12:33<@Terkhen>besides maybe a general description at the beginning of the file, IMO you don't need many more comments, otherwise you will end up writing a comment for each spritelayout and industry layout
12:33<NGC3982>peter1138: Where does it jam?
12:33<andythenorth>Terkhen: also the comments age badly :)
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12:34<NGC3982>Im actually increasing the number of trains
12:34<NGC3982>So, i guess im up for a treat.
12:34<andythenorth>I think you have to know nml well to be able to use this python stuff
12:34<andythenorth>I'm not trying to make a general newgrf framework that hides nml
12:35<NGC3982>peter1138: Im sorry, i keep hilighting you.
12:35<NGC3982>planetmaker: Where can it jam?
12:35<@planetmaker>only pickup trains in the stations and another pickup train waiting
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12:36<NGC3982>The only pickup trains are in the Export Management station.
12:49<@Terkhen>andythenorth: now that you mention that, maybe I understood it because the code is quite close to our pnml templates, although it looks nicer
12:50<andythenorth>Terkhen: the code is a near-exact python implementation of your templates :)
12:50<andythenorth>I literally took the pnml and swapped out cpp for chameleon
12:50<andythenorth>it pretty much worked straight away :)
12:50<@Terkhen>writing the same comments about how to code an industry at every industry file would serve no purpose, though... maybe the documentation should go into a central file? I don't know if you have a "template definition" file with that new thingie :)
12:51<andythenorth>the normal route for python people would be to go read the classes
12:51<andythenorth>same as other languages I guess
12:51<andythenorth>and I should document the classes better
12:55<@Terkhen>ok :)
12:56<Nat_aS>NGC3982 would that be the postal code for the north pole
12:58<NGC3982>Uhm, wat.
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13:17<TyrHeimdal>any tips on merging lines into a mainline?
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24614 trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt (2012-10-19 17:45:09 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>latvian - 17 changes by Parastais
13:45<TyrHeimdal>ok, next question: Is there a way to "pack" the main lines?
13:46<TyrHeimdal>"pack trains" I should say
13:46<TyrHeimdal>to free up space
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13:51<TyrHeimdal>or to get trains to start accelerating from a complete stop and fit into a slot on the main line?
13:52<TyrHeimdal>(from a side track)
13:52<NGC3982>There we are
13:54<NGC3982>Nat_aS: Oh, were you talking about my nick?
13:56*andythenorth needs to do industry fences next
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13:57<andythenorth>we want to be able to have different styles of fence for industries right?
13:58<andythenorth>ach nvm, I'll duck tape it
13:58<andythenorth>something odd just happened
13:59<andythenorth>I visited suggestions forum and I am neither confused nor angry
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13:59<NGC3982>Oh wait, no.
13:59<NGC3982>Or wait, yes?
13:59*andythenorth waits
14:00<Prof_Frink>I go with gaffer, just to avoid that argument.
14:00<NGC3982>Duct- or duck tape seems to be the samething.
14:05<andythenorth>potato / potato
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14:07<efess>Duck is the brand, duct is the product :D
14:12<Chris_Booth>that sound quackers
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14:19<andythenorth>fences fences fences
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14:21<andythenorth>planetmaker Terkhen Yexo which of you did the current FIRS fences? :)
14:21<@Yexo>I think that was me
14:21<@Yexo>or at least I did some work on it
14:21<andythenorth>I thought it was simple, but now I find it's not :)
14:22<@planetmaker>I believe I worked on that (too)
14:22<@Yexo>it's just a few varaction2's
14:22<@Yexo>anyway, what do you want to change/add?
14:23<andythenorth>I want to replicate it 1:1 in my new templating
14:23<andythenorth>I'm just trying to understand which parts are handled in the layout, and which in the varact 2 chain
14:23<andythenorth>e.g. FENCES_EXCLUDE_BY_CLASS is varact 2 chain afaict
14:24<@planetmaker>the way I remember: you include a template for each side which could have fences
14:24<@planetmaker>there's also a template which does it for all 4 sides at once
14:25<@Yexo>FENCE_NE/SW/NW/SE are part of the layout
14:25<@planetmaker>and a fence is drawn if the adjacent tile does not belong to the same industry
14:25<andythenorth>yup, the layout part I think I understand, it seems easy
14:25<andythenorth>the varact 2 point is just filling registers?
14:25<andythenorth>point / part /s
14:26<@planetmaker>well... you hide the sprite, if the adjecent tile is not of the industry. simple tile query
14:26<@Yexo>and it has become significantly more complicated since the last time I looked at it
14:26<@Yexo>it didn't support sloped fences before
14:26<andythenorth>sloped fences would be shiny
14:26<@planetmaker>so we worked both on it :-)
14:26<andythenorth>slopes not actually used yet
14:26<@planetmaker>indeed the slope check made it complicated. You have to store the sprite to draw in a register
14:26<andythenorth>I have no need or desire to change the nml logic here, just how it's setup
14:27<@planetmaker>similar decision path as for snowyness. Just that slope is the argument to check for instead of height
14:27<@planetmaker>and there's 19 slopes and only 4 heights ;-)
14:27<@planetmaker>*height differences
14:27<andythenorth>I may leave most of these templates untouched for now
14:27<andythenorth>the pnml step still works
14:28*andythenorth will try some things, thanks
14:29<andythenorth>Yexo: once again, having real python objects in scope makes nml way more useful to me ;)
14:29<andythenorth>same as BANDIT and FISH
14:29<andythenorth>dunno if that's something nml should attempt though
14:29<@Yexo>are you writing nml code from python?
14:29<@Yexo>or interfacing directly with the nmlc python code?
14:29<andythenorth>writing nml code from python
14:30<andythenorth>strictly, I'm writing pnml with CPP in it
14:30<andythenorth>which is baroque, but works excellently
14:33<andythenorth>python module, 1 per industry
14:36<andythenorth>there is _some_ magic in there, but hopefully not too much :)
14:37<@Yexo>does it matter to you if I rewrite the ADD_FENCES and related defines?
14:37<@Yexo>they can work more efficiently
14:38<andythenorth>it only matters if I then go on to destroy your work :)
14:38<andythenorth>I need to put fences into my spritelayout template
14:38<andythenorth>which is spritelayouts.pynml
14:39<andythenorth>the varact 2 stuff I won't touch, only the spritelayout part
14:40<@Yexo>I'm doing a few (probably small) changes in tile_fences.pnml
14:40<andythenorth>Yexo: my plan is to have the industry *.py modules define which fences to use and where, but I can template that in to whatever / however you do it
14:40<@Yexo>no changes to the interface
14:40<andythenorth>I'll do nothing until you commit ;)
14:40<@Yexo>just go ahead
14:41<@Yexo> <- maybe a few more changes like this
14:42<andythenorth>yeah that won't touch what I'm doing ;)
14:44<andythenorth>oh Yexo one thing....FIRS trunk won't compile now without chameleon (sorry, but I figured another dep is not hard for most FIRS devs)
14:44<@Yexo>seems I already have that
14:45<andythenorth>FISH and BANDIT use it
14:45<@Yexo>isn't it also time to remove the old nfo code from the repo?
14:45<andythenorth>I wondered same
14:45<andythenorth>it's no longer a useful reference point
14:46<andythenorth>do it as r3k? :P
14:46<@Yexo>fine with me
14:46<@Yexo>"Remove all nfo code"
14:46<andythenorth>we are at 2995
14:47<@Yexo>ok, pushed the fences change as r2996
14:47<@Yexo>will leave the rest up to you
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15:08<@Yexo>planetmaker: ah, I just found a (very old) firs_fences.diff containing nfo code
15:08<@Yexo>that's why it looks so different :p
15:10<@planetmaker>oh oh :-) that is indeed old
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15:56<ZxBiohazardZx>hello there
15:56<ZxBiohazardZx>- you pay tripple interests on a negative bank balance, thus to collect interests on a negative cash value in the monthly loop additionally to the interest collected on the loan in the quarterly loop. The reason herein lies that this avoids the cheat to not pay interests on negative money and not go bancrupt either.
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15:56<ZxBiohazardZx>trying to get that in
15:57<ZxBiohazardZx>ow wait nvm
15:57<@planetmaker>ZxBiohazardZx, interests on loan remains unchainged. Interest on negative cash is newly introduced. And should be quite a bit higher than interest on loan
15:57<@planetmaker>that's one way to implement it
15:58<ZxBiohazardZx>ill paste something, just tell me if it looks ok :P
15:59<ZxBiohazardZx>line 1 is original code for the charge of interest on loan
15:59<ZxBiohazardZx>line 2-5 are my suggested lines for charging negatives
15:59<ZxBiohazardZx>and 6 is the so far unchanged loan-formulas backtracing it to a monthly fee
16:01<frosch123>instead of multiplying the interest for negative cache, you can also subtract it more often
16:01<frosch123>i.e. monthly instead of quarterly
16:01<ZxBiohazardZx>1 step at a time frosch
16:01<ZxBiohazardZx>im not a coder
16:01<ZxBiohazardZx>i know basic java programming
16:01<@Terkhen>good night
16:01<ZxBiohazardZx>and i do stuff in small steps
16:02<ZxBiohazardZx>step 1 was implementing the different condition
16:02<frosch123>monthly interest with the same rate also results in 3x the interest of the loan (neglecting interests to interests)
16:02<ZxBiohazardZx>step2 is the charging on negatives
16:02<frosch123>ah, ok :)
16:02<ZxBiohazardZx>and step 3 is to make it count on a monthly or even daily basis or whatever :P
16:02<ZxBiohazardZx>still wondering why the hell SubtractMoneyFromCompany(CommandCost(EXPENSES_OTHER, _price[PR_STATION_VALUE] >> 2));
16:02<ZxBiohazardZx>is in the interest function
16:03<ZxBiohazardZx>for me its a piece of random unrelated code that is put there for "we didnt put it elsewhere" reasons
16:04<frosch123>it something that is paid quarterly :)
16:04<frosch123>or monthly?
16:05<ZxBiohazardZx>currently economy is checked quarterly
16:05<ZxBiohazardZx>same for bankrupcy
16:05<ZxBiohazardZx>its checked on quarterly basis
16:05<ZxBiohazardZx>i already wrote a change of condition as suggested
16:05<ZxBiohazardZx>so now im just checking if ^^ that paste seems ok for adding a charge-fee on negative cash (whenever i guess)
16:06<ZxBiohazardZx>check economy.cpp
16:07<ZxBiohazardZx>and search for CompaniesPayInterest() function
16:07<frosch123>are you using hg or svn?
16:07<ZxBiohazardZx>i still dont see why stationshit is there
16:07<ZxBiohazardZx>i use git on trinitycore
16:07<frosch123>i.e. can you post diffs instead :)
16:07<ZxBiohazardZx>we dumped hg
16:07<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah i can post a diff
16:07<ZxBiohazardZx>the first change is posted as diff
16:07<ZxBiohazardZx>but i didnt edit function yet
16:08<ZxBiohazardZx>just open un-editted one and read the last line of that function, maybe you know why the fuck its there
16:08<ZxBiohazardZx>the comment is pretty clear, and function name indicates its loan/interest related
16:08<ZxBiohazardZx>but the stationshit is putting me off
16:08<frosch123>oh, so the interest stuff is actually run monthly
16:08<frosch123>i remembered that incorrectly
16:09<ZxBiohazardZx>didnt check where it was called, just checking the function for now :P
16:10<ZxBiohazardZx>now lets see
16:10<frosch123>so, it might just be a "if (c->money < 0) yearly_fee += -c->money * (3*_economy.interest_rate) / 100;"
16:10<ZxBiohazardZx>meh i was just thinking something like that
16:11<ZxBiohazardZx>mine lacked a way to quickly add it to the yearly fee
16:11<frosch123>the 3 is now completely arbitrary though :)
16:11<ZxBiohazardZx>true planet said tripple interest
16:11<ZxBiohazardZx>you can make it a difficulty setting/variable
16:12<ZxBiohazardZx>but then again im new so i want to keep it basic codewise etc
16:12<ZxBiohazardZx>small changes a time :)
16:12<frosch123>the idea behind the 3 was the assumption that loan interest would only have been quartely, so balance interest coulr be the same amount but monthly
16:12<frosch123>but as it turns out, the loan interest is also monthyl
16:13<ZxBiohazardZx>so 3 can be removed
16:13<ZxBiohazardZx>unless you want a parameter there for difficulty settings?
16:13<frosch123>it can be any number that suits gameplay :)
16:13<frosch123>there is no specific number that just appears useful :)
16:14<ZxBiohazardZx>fair enough then ill just make it 1x interest on negatives
16:14<frosch123>< 1 is not useful, 1 would be boring, so, something > 1 :)
16:14<frosch123>no idea how big the impact is on gameplay
16:14<frosch123>whether 2, 3, 4, or 8 would hurt :p
16:15<ZxBiohazardZx>as i said, is it hard to make it a parameter that can be set?
16:15<ZxBiohazardZx>and/or follows the preset difficulty settings?
16:16<frosch123>just grep for "interest_rate"
16:16<frosch123>and duplicate everything related to it :p
16:16<frosch123>only 5 hits in total
16:17<ZxBiohazardZx>im on a wintendo and i hate grep shit
16:17<frosch123>well, just use whatever file search
16:17<ZxBiohazardZx>by making the param 1 you just charge same interest on negatives as on loan
16:17<Rubidium>... except windows' search
16:17<ZxBiohazardZx>so if you have -500k its the same as having 500k loan
16:17<ZxBiohazardZx>sounds fair enough to me
16:18<Rubidium>that has an amazing ability to not find stuff
16:18<ZxBiohazardZx>no need to punish the mechanic even harder, for bankrupcy it doesnt matter
16:18<ZxBiohazardZx>and Rubidium is right, if you wanna find something on your wintendo, you better keep your mental-map in shape
16:18<ZxBiohazardZx>and/or use good file structures for yourself
16:18<ZxBiohazardZx>downloads folder is my personal hellhole to find shit in
16:19<ZxBiohazardZx>specially with those nice and lovely generic download names as 19013121931_018231 etc
16:19<ZxBiohazardZx>ill keep it on 1 and post the diff, on to next step in the process
16:19<ZxBiohazardZx>making the bankrupcy check a monthly one rather then a quarterly one
16:21<ZxBiohazardZx>P2 posted
16:21<ZxBiohazardZx>as .patch (diff format i guess)
16:22<ZxBiohazardZx>hmmz making bankrupcy a monthly check seems more invasive :P
16:26<ZxBiohazardZx>i think if i move it up/out of the bitcheck it is monthly
16:26<ZxBiohazardZx>but that means ill have to alter more i think
16:27<ZxBiohazardZx>also Eddi around?
16:27<ZxBiohazardZx>guess not :P
16:27<frosch123>he is always at home
16:28<ZxBiohazardZx>i think that moving it to a monthly check is a bit more work then i can do myself XD, not that beserking :P
16:28<ZxBiohazardZx>the actual function call is in a quarterly part
16:28<ZxBiohazardZx>so moving it out there would make it monthly
16:28<frosch123>quarters_of_bankruptcy also only used in 7 places :)
16:29<ZxBiohazardZx>but then im interested to see how i can make it check bankrupcy before maintenance
16:29<ZxBiohazardZx>simple change to months_of_bankruptcy i know
16:29<ZxBiohazardZx>the point is that the function call has to be moved
16:29<ZxBiohazardZx>so my suggestion would be to move the bankrupcy check to the very beginning of the tick, so effectively you are marked as bankrupt if you were negative at the end of the previous quarter, not at the beginning of this quarter
16:30<ZxBiohazardZx>thats eddi's suggestion
16:30<ZxBiohazardZx>now the point is where to move that bankrupt-check so it suffices that condition
16:33<ZxBiohazardZx> * Monthly update of the economic data (of the companies as well as economic fluctuations).
16:33<ZxBiohazardZx> */
16:33<ZxBiohazardZx>void CompaniesMonthlyLoop()
16:33<ZxBiohazardZx>sounds like a fair location
16:33<ZxBiohazardZx>in the monthly loop
16:33<frosch123>just take a look where CompanyCheckBankrupt is called
16:34<frosch123>just 10 lines above that call is the check for the quarters
16:34<ZxBiohazardZx>in companiesgenstatistics
16:34<frosch123>while CompaniesGenStatistics is called monthly itself
16:34<ZxBiohazardZx>the if(hasbit right)
16:35<ZxBiohazardZx>but on eddis suggestion, if i move it out of companiesgenstatistics
16:35<ZxBiohazardZx>or just up in it
16:35<frosch123>well, if you do the checks monthly, is there any need for eddis suggestion?
16:35<frosch123>i think it's a weird suggestion :p
16:35<ZxBiohazardZx>well depends
16:36<frosch123>bankrupcy is exactly when you cannot pay your loans :)
16:36<ZxBiohazardZx>you need to check bankrupcy over what you did LAST month (aka check status @ 31 or 30th that month) not how you do beginning the next (1st)
16:36<ZxBiohazardZx>fair enough
16:37<ZxBiohazardZx>anyway so id have to move it up
16:37<ZxBiohazardZx>to just above if(hasbit) ?
16:37<ZxBiohazardZx>and i think the update rating and value has to be done in order for bankrupcy to be handled correctly
16:37<ZxBiohazardZx>and by moving them out of the quarterly loop, it might end up with more calculations?
16:38<frosch123>i don't think CompanyCheckBankrupt has to be in order of any of the other checks
16:38<frosch123>except you have to abort the loop if it closes the company
16:38<frosch123>so it must either be the last thing in a FOR_ALL_COMPANIES loop
16:39<frosch123>you need a separate loop, or you have to break in some way
16:39<ZxBiohazardZx>i think it needs the company values updated
16:40<ZxBiohazardZx>specially in the case2 (multiple months/quarters flagged) it will ask other companies to take it over based on value
16:40<ZxBiohazardZx>ah nvm it calcs value inside
16:41<ZxBiohazardZx>i could ninjaplace it in the improved infra-cost function just like the weird stationshit is in interest funct
16:41<ZxBiohazardZx>but i prefer a clean/new loop
16:42<ZxBiohazardZx>that or make the bankrupcycheck function preform the loop and put the shit after interest payment
16:42<ZxBiohazardZx>weird lol we do make them pay maintenance but we will ignore interest on bankrupcy check
16:48<ZxBiohazardZx>now lets see where that quarterlybankrupt is at
16:48<ZxBiohazardZx>you grepped it right?
16:48<ZxBiohazardZx>all in economy.cpp or also in other files?
16:50<ZxBiohazardZx>i found 3 in economy.cpp
16:51<ZxBiohazardZx>means 0 rolls into 1 rolls into break right
16:51<ZxBiohazardZx>so just editting the numbers to 3,6,9 will make the checks the same
16:52<ZxBiohazardZx>as long as i add case 2,4,5,7,8 as empty's
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16:55<ZxBiohazardZx>frosch around?
16:55<ZxBiohazardZx>can you grep where the other 2 calls to quarters_of_bankrupcy are located?
16:59<ZxBiohazardZx>found one in company_base.h
16:59<ZxBiohazardZx>1 more :P
17:04<ZxBiohazardZx>nvm notepad++ found them for me
17:08<ZxBiohazardZx>for some reason i feel it need a declare somewhere
17:09<ZxBiohazardZx>c-> is a pointer, but i cant find its define unless i replaced it already
17:09<Chris_Booth>is gb not getting the latest nightly?
17:09<Chris_Booth>or RC?
17:16<ZxBiohazardZx>is there a way to move my topic from suggestions to patch/fix section?
17:17<Ammler>I guess, peter1138 already mentioned about issues on his mirror
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17:18<@Yexo><ZxBiohazardZx> is there a way to move my topic from suggestions to patch/fix section? <- sure
17:18<ZxBiohazardZx>i think that those 3 patches implement most of the requested features
17:19<ZxBiohazardZx>i didnt compile/check them yet, but since they arent that invasive i think it works as they are :P
17:20<ZxBiohazardZx>_part1 is the suggested change for condition _part2 is the charging interest over negative balance and _part4 is to make the bankruptcy check a monthly check
17:20<ZxBiohazardZx>maybe i need to add part3 but i believe part4 included that
17:22<ZxBiohazardZx>hmmz maybe _part4 contains everything lolz
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17:25<ZxBiohazardZx>hmmz another question
17:25<ZxBiohazardZx>is there a way in svn to generate a diff against previous revision?
17:25<ZxBiohazardZx>aka i now have 3-4 diffs that i want to merge
17:26<ZxBiohazardZx>but its the same as creating a diff against revision x (or x-1)
17:27<Chris_Booth>oh okay just mean the silly auto update fails for me now
17:27<Chris_Booth>and other uk users
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17:35<ZxBiohazardZx>stupid svn
17:35<ZxBiohazardZx>keeps stopiing on network bs
17:36<ZxBiohazardZx>i think _part4 is the full patch actually :P
17:40<@planetmaker>confiremed, Chris_Booth
17:41<Chris_Booth>is it possible to temp redirect to another mirror planetmaker?
17:41<@planetmaker>the mirror was taken from usage
17:41<@planetmaker>until it is fixed
17:42<ZxBiohazardZx>planetmaker that _part4 is full patch i think
17:42<ZxBiohazardZx>should include all suggestions you made
17:43<Chris_Booth>you are the best planetmaker
17:44<Chris_Booth>or who ever removed it temp <3
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17:46<@planetmaker>thank TB, Chris_Booth ;-)
17:46<Chris_Booth>thanks TrueBrain!
17:47<ZxBiohazardZx>anyone willing to check if my patch will build/compile for me?
17:47<@planetmaker>whether it will build for you only you can decide
17:48<@planetmaker>I can only check whether it compiles for me ;-)
17:48<@planetmaker>but... didn't you test that?
17:49*planetmaker takes a look... but too late to judge anything properly today
17:50<@planetmaker>what about part3, ZxBiohazardZx ?
17:50<ZxBiohazardZx>part 3 = part4
17:50<ZxBiohazardZx>dunno i lost it :P
17:50<ZxBiohazardZx>i think part 1 and 2 are actually lose
17:50<ZxBiohazardZx>part 4 just ended up being the merge of all changes for some reason
17:50<ZxBiohazardZx>and i indended 3 to be that too
17:51<ZxBiohazardZx>but because i went back and changed lines from quarter to monthly 3 became 4 became all-included if im not mistaken
17:51<@planetmaker>so... part3 doesn't depend on part2 or part1?
17:52<ZxBiohazardZx>no but it changes lines that are altered in part 1 and 2 :P
17:52<ZxBiohazardZx>hence the changeset 3 became the all inclusive
17:52<ZxBiohazardZx>let me try to explain
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17:52<ZxBiohazardZx>part 1
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17:53<ZxBiohazardZx>changes if (c->money - c->current_loan >= - _economy.max_loan) {
17:53-!-Zuu [] has joined #openttd
17:53<ZxBiohazardZx>ow wait
17:53<ZxBiohazardZx>nah i can create a diff for 3
17:53<ZxBiohazardZx>it just screwed up and generated 4 :P
17:54<@planetmaker>+ // to prevent cheating or abuse, make companies pay interest over negative balances as well! <-- doesn't follow coding style
17:54<@planetmaker> /* for separate lines */
17:54<ZxBiohazardZx>ah my bad
17:54<@planetmaker>company_months = 5 // start with an arbitrary comment in the same line
17:54<ZxBiohazardZx>ah i see why 3 hates it
17:55<ZxBiohazardZx>its because the line that is editted follows upon an editted line
17:55<ZxBiohazardZx>so instead of making it a seperate change, it grabs both lines
17:56<ZxBiohazardZx>editted 3 in so you can check
17:56<@planetmaker>use hg or git for patch queues ;-)
17:56<ZxBiohazardZx>case 6: { preferred
17:56<ZxBiohazardZx>or is { on newline fine?
17:57<ZxBiohazardZx>we have a git?:O
17:57<ZxBiohazardZx>good lemmy trash this damn svn
17:57<ZxBiohazardZx>and get the git
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18:02<ZxBiohazardZx>git clone -v --progress "" "D:/Sourcecodes/OTTD/"
18:02<ZxBiohazardZx>Cloning into D:/Sourcecodes/OTTD/
18:02<ZxBiohazardZx>fatal: not found: did you run git update-server-info on the server?
18:03<ZxBiohazardZx>wrong params? wrong location?
18:03<frosch123>i think your url is ""
18:04<ZxBiohazardZx>does it matter that much (aka cant you clone whole git?)
18:04<frosch123>there are multiple gits there
18:04<ZxBiohazardZx>apparently it does :P
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19:06<Wolf01>'night all
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19:34<NGC3982>Good evening.
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20:52<Goldobsidian>Hello, Can any one help me get a mod working?
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21:09<goldobsidian>the AFKness of 105 people is astonishing
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 20 00:00:52 2012