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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-10-21

---Logopened Sun Oct 21 00:00:53 2012
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01:38<andythenorth>hola
01:42<telanus>hi
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03:38<Ammler>how does someone vote against delete request? (just remove the template?) http://wiki.openttd.org/OpenGFX_Readme
03:40<Rubidium>Ammler: given it's outdated by over a year, it's not such a bad request
03:40<Ammler>(I would rename the page to OpenGFX)
03:40<Rubidium>complete removal might be a bit too much
03:41<Rubidium>but definitely the removal of the outdated copy
03:42<Ammler>yep, rename to OpenGFX and remove Readme
03:43<Ammler>and maybe add other additional "unversioned" infos
03:44<Ammler>he, germans really translated the readme :-)
03:45<Ammler>I always wanted translated readmes in the source :-P
03:46<Rubidium>you shouldn't rename the page since it's linked to from the readme
03:47<Ammler>well, rename means, there will stay a redirect
03:48<Rubidium>but IMO the page should be clear it used to be the readme, so people click on the link to the actual readme from the source repository
03:48<Rubidium>but feel free to make another OpenGFX page
03:49<Ammler>so copy new version or remove "readme"?
03:50<Rubidium>copy new version and make sure it gets updated upon the next release, or remove the content of the readme from the page and link to the file in the source repository
03:52<Ammler>planetmaker: renumber the index was quite a bad move
03:53<Ammler>ah well, not that worse :-P
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03:56<@Alberth>moin
03:57<Rubidium>moin
03:57<Ammler>ok, set my vote against ;-)
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04:17<Wolf01>moin
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04:21<@Alberth>moin
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04:36<frosch123>dihedral: are you still the only one with a clue about the admin port?
04:47<Ammler>:-D
04:48<andythenorth>oh how quaint
04:48*andythenorth just plugged a mouse in
04:48<andythenorth>ottd is better with a mouse
04:48<Ammler>on the farms?
04:49<andythenorth>on my laptop :P
04:49<Ammler>now
04:49<andythenorth>haven't used a mouse for years :P
04:49<Ammler>plug in a cat
04:51<andythenorth>it has a scroll wheel, and I can move the map without a modifier key and all sorts of things
04:51<@Alberth>oh dear :)
04:51<@Alberth>Ammler: mice and cats are not compatible afaik
04:53<Ammler>my laptop has both in, mouse and cat :-P
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04:53<Ammler>well, the cat is mainly around it
04:53<Ammler>but so is the mouse
04:54<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause uses cat a lot
04:54*andythenorth ponders
04:54<andythenorth>can I put FIRS python conversion on amazon mechanical turk?
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05:16<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24620 trunk/src/network/network_admin.cpp (2012-10-21 09:15:57 UTC)
05:16<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r24619): Keep admin port API compatibility.
05:17<@Terkhen>good morning
05:17<frosch123>hola terkhen :)
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05:22<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
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06:16<V453000>andythenorth: is it possible that FIRS eats a lot of cpu later in the game?
06:17<frosch123>unlikely
06:17<frosch123>industry cpu usage depends mostly on the number of industry tiles on the map
06:18<frosch123>which stays quite constant during a game
06:18<frosch123>unless ottd constantly tries to build more industries, which fails :p
06:18<V453000>hm
06:18<frosch123>no idea how often ottd tries
06:18<frosch123>Alberth might know
06:18<V453000>strange, we have just 850 trains and the game feels like we had 2000
06:18<V453000>well almost
06:18<V453000>1500
06:19<frosch123>well, that doesn't says anything about how much cpu firs used in the ealier stages of the game :p
06:20<V453000>I didnt mean comparatively
06:20<V453000>my bad sorry :) didnt express it right
06:21<frosch123>i should revive the newgrf profiler
06:21<@Alberth>how hard it tries depends on how many it is behind w.r.t. planning. If industries do not close, it would be quite relaxed, as keeping up is trivial until you get a crowded map
06:22<@Alberth>the planning increases slowly, ie a few industries per decade
06:22<frosch123>ah right, first stuff does not close
06:22<frosch123>-t
06:22<V453000>it can but by default it doesnt indeed
06:22<V453000>(we are using the default now)
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06:27<DDR>I recall one map I flooded with something like 5000 boats. It was multiplayer, and it turned out I had the weakest computer/worst connection.
06:27<DDR>I accidentally won myself out of the game. :P
06:27<DDR>anyway, nig'ht
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06:43<@planetmaker>moin
06:45<@Alberth>moin
06:48<V453000>elo
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07:48<andythenorth>:o
07:48<andythenorth>someone has patched for diagonal roads
07:48<andythenorth>http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=75187
07:51<andythenorth>needs some anti-aliasing on the white lines though
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08:19<V453000>omg andy :)
08:26<NGC3982>Morning.
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10:33<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/7zS7j.png
10:34<NGC3982>I know that using systems like that work for smaller stations with <7 tile trains
10:34<NGC3982>But should i need to rethink this with this size of train and station?
10:37<V453000>how about to use multiple smaller Xes
10:38<NGC3982>Well, sure
10:38<NGC3982>But i only have one exit, and one entrance
10:38<NGC3982>I fail to see how that would make it more efficient.
10:39<V453000>you would of course connect all of the Xes into one exit/entrance in the end
10:39<V453000>point is, this huge ass X is very slow. Making 3 smaller ones is obviously more than 3 times faster
10:40<NGC3982>I think i understand
10:40*NGC3982 tries it out.
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10:43<V453000>report the results :p
10:43<NGC3982>I fucked it up
10:44<NGC3982>Thing is, the number of stations will make trains do an extra turn.
10:45<V453000>what do you mean by that
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10:46<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/hVXEK.png
10:47<V453000>well that is obviously not the way how to do it, hang on
10:48<V453000>example http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/File:Psg156_wooddrop.png
10:48<V453000>one line splits into 4, and each of the 4 has its own X
10:49<NGC3982>Ah
10:49<NGC3982>I see
10:49*NGC3982 tries.
10:50<V453000>generally the very first fork matters the most in almost every station
10:51<V453000>you need to provide valid choices at all times for the station to be able to handle higher traffic
10:51<V453000>so, forking into multiple X sub-stations is a good way to go
10:52<V453000>and later on when the requirements are too high for even that, you can just add another line by connecting each X once from each line http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/images/0/04/Psg223coaldrop.png
10:53<V453000>theory here http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2010/09/28/advanced-building-revue-07-stations/
10:53<NGC3982>I see.
10:53<NGC3982>I don't fancy that, though.
10:53<NGC3982>Looks way too chaotic
10:54<NGC3982>My OCD's are acting up
10:54<V453000>try the last link
10:54<V453000>it is described and with small screenshots there
10:54<V453000>the very intro image is a typical station you are trying to build
10:54<NGC3982>Actually, the picture there shows something more interesting.
10:54<NGC3982>Yes
10:55<NGC3982>The basis seems to be to actually divide entry and exit traffic
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10:55<NGC3982>Wich is the only thing that separates that from my current setup.
10:55*NGC3982 solves.
10:55<V453000>sort of
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11:01<V453000>feel free to ask about anything but the article I linked you to should have a lot of answers
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11:07<NGC3982>Thanks
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12:00<NGC3982>andythenorth: What is the maximum amount of oil an oilwell can produce in FIRS 0.7.5?
12:02<andythenorth>not sure
12:03<andythenorth>put the industry production cheat on and have a look
12:03<andythenorth>then reload your savegame
12:04<NGC3982>1,792,000 liters, it seems.
12:10<__ln__>"Are you sure you want to quit and return to Windows?" .... is that question perhaps a bit 'dated'?
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12:15<@peter1138>:-)
12:17<@Terkhen>it's more dated when you play on linux... it says "return to Unix"
12:22<__ln__>it does, and gnu's not unix.
12:22<__ln__>and on OS X, which actually is Unix, it doesn't say Unix.
12:23<Zuu>__ln__: you mean that the question does suggest that people don't multi-task?
12:24<Zuu>Eg. that OpenTTD run as a modal process to the OS.
12:24<__ln__>Zuu: yes; "return to DOS?" made a lot of sense back then, but 'returning' to Windows or any other windowed, multitasking OS is not really 'returning'.
12:25<@Terkhen>oh, that's true
12:25<@Terkhen>"Are you sure you want to quit?" should be enough
12:26<__ln__>so how about creating a newgrf which replaces the quit dialog with that simpler message and leaves out the OS completely.
12:26<NGC3982>Can that be achieved with a GRF?
12:26<@Terkhen>why shoud such a thing be done with a NewGRF?
12:27<@Terkhen>should*
12:27<__ln__>because nothing's done in code if it can be done with a newgrf, i've understood.
12:27<__ln__>ok, fair enough, i'm trolling about the grf thing, but not about changing the message.
12:27<frosch123>yeah, and playing is mostly done by ais
12:28<andythenorth>NGC3982: that's just about the worse use case for a newgrf I've heard :)
12:28<@Yexo>if you play ttdpatch it's likely possible with a newgrf
12:29<Zuu>Unless its part of the retro TTD feeling to have the "quit to OS" dialog, I've got nothing against removing one port diffeerence.
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12:33<NGC3982>At the same time, don't let everything fall to practicality.
12:34<NGC3982>It's can be quite nostalgical to maintain stuff like that.
12:39<@Alberth>__ln__: we're so happy that openttd is not gnu
12:43<NGC3982>V453000: Im sticking to my big cross model.
12:43<NGC3982>V453000: The trains wait a fair bit on the station anyhow, and it looks much better.
12:43<frosch123>"collapse"/"expand" or "fold"/"unfold"?
12:44<Chris_Booth>"collapse"/"expand"
12:44<andythenorth>for progressive disclosure?
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12:53<NGC3982>By the way
12:53<NGC3982>I often use double-connected engines in OpenTTD
12:54<NGC3982>Like, http://i.imgur.com/5wqpD.png
12:54<NGC3982>Is that realistic? Of course, i often notice double-connected ("multade") complete trains
12:54<Markk>yes
12:54<Markk>That is normal.
12:54<NGC3982>But never Engine+Engine+line of wagons
12:54<NGC3982>Oh, ok.
12:55<Markk>hm?
12:55<NGC3982>Ive only seen it in pax traffic
12:55<Markk>It's normal to use 2 or 3 engines in a row in the front and then a lot of wagons.
12:55<NGC3982>Oh
12:55<NGC3982>Using all of them?
12:55<Markk>Usually, yes.
12:55<NGC3982>Neat.
12:56<Markk>I've seen engine+PAX-wagons+engine as well.
12:56<Markk>SJ use that configuration in the train between Stockholm and Uppsala in Sweden.
12:57<NGC3982>What engines?
12:57<Markk>But it's not because they need the extra power, it's just so they don't have to move the engine from side to side when heading back.
12:57<NGC3982>Arent those double-deckers?
12:57<Markk>Rc6 usually.
12:57<Markk>That's X40.
12:58<DanMacK>North american freights are almost always like that
12:58<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
12:58<Markk>This is a normal train.
12:58<Markk>NGC3982: Det är vanligt lok + vagnar och sedan ett lok i slutändan igen, vanligtvis Rc6+B6+Rc6 igen.
12:58<NGC3982>Ah
12:58<Markk>NGC3982: X40 brukar köra blandat ibland också.
12:59<Markk>NGC3982: Men det är en motorvagn. :)
12:59<NGC3982>But yeah, now that you say it.
12:59<Markk>Sorry guys that I took that in Swedish, but is was quite a lot easier that way.
12:59<NGC3982>You will be banished to the lakes of blood!
12:59<__ln__>det + en?
13:00<NGC3982>Markk: Although, making my trains more realistic would really be to use an Rc6 in each end then, i guess.
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13:00<NGC3982>It will actually look alot better when they turn at stations too.
13:01<Markk>__ln__: "det" = "that" and "en" = "one".
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13:01<__ln__>jag vet, men varför inte "den"?
13:02<Markk>NGC3982: Yer, but that depends.
13:02<NGC3982>__ln__: He is describing the model, not an individual engine.
13:02<Markk>__ln__: Hm?
13:02<NGC3982>__ln__: Thus: det ("that model") är en motorvagn (is a motor wagon).
13:02<Markk>__ln__: It's about grammar, I can't use "den" in either of the sentences.
13:03<__ln__>NGC3982: ok, that makes sense.
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>has anyone said "english only" yet?
13:04<Markk>"den" and "det" means the same thing, but it is the grammar who decides when and where I should use it.
13:04<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: Nein.
13:04<NGC3982>Markk: I would not actually say that it means the same thing.
13:04<NGC3982>Markk: But that might be me being used to the grammar in a non-international sence.
13:05<Markk>Mm
13:05<NGC3982>As taught in school: "Swedish grammar. It's like german grammar, but Swedish!"
13:05<NGC3982>:E
13:05<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: english is basically swedish with some german and french mixed into it.
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>is that like "der/die/das" [gender] or "der/des/dem/den" [casus]
13:06<Markk>Yes, but a little less complex.
13:07<Markk>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpHniCEHY7I
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13:07<Markk>That video describes Swedish quite well.
13:08<NGC3982>sooper eesy
13:08<Markk>:D
13:08*andythenorth searches for US trains with 6 or 8 units on the head end :P
13:09<Pinkbeast>They don't believe in banking locos for some reason, right?
13:09<NGC3982>Please note that this guy is a rather famous comedian..
13:10<Zuu>Markk: Between Stockholm and Norrköping I've seen RC6 + wagons + wagon with cabin. Eg. like the south end of X2 but with the old slow trains.
13:10<Zuu>But I guess they are short in those and use an engine instead between Stockholm and Uppsala.
13:10<Markk>Mm
13:10<Markk>They should use X40 for that.
13:10<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: swedish has "en/ett" (basically gender, but those aren't called masculine or feminine), and then "den/det" is the definite article, and also "t" is added to some adjectives for the "ett" gender.
13:11<Markk>And now maybe a X53 (Regina).
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>hm... Stuttgart is going green...
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13:36<frosch123>has that any influence on the railstation? :p
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24621 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2012-10-21 17:45:23 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>afrikaans - 47 changes by Oomjcv
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 425 changes by Bassals, arnau
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 6 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 5 changes by Terkhen
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14:29<Simonn>hello friends
14:34<@Alberth>hi, although 'friends' is a bit early
14:34-!-xand [~xand@onion.xand.co.uk] has joined #openttd
14:35<xand>hi, any ideas why my "check online content" window would have no content downloaded?
14:35<xand>oh nm, I was being impatient!
14:36<@Yexo>good to hear it works :)
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>Simonn: if the amount of replies is any indicator for your amount of friends, i'd start to worry :)
14:38<Simonn>:(
14:38<Simonn>BULLY
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>nobody here by that name, sorry
14:39<@Yexo>well, he did get 2 replies (no a third indirect one)
14:40<Simonn>bullies like you make me SICK
14:41<@Yexo>Simonn: don't take everything so serious, and certainly don't go on about it after it should have been apparent is was a joke
14:41<Simonn>yeah join the 99% ganging up on me
14:42<andythenorth>someone kick him please
14:42<andythenorth>he's a troll
14:42<andythenorth>thanks
14:42<Simonn>NO
14:42<Simonn>I came here to show of my stuff
14:44<@planetmaker>the please do so. And stop the whining
14:45<Simonn>lol ok
14:45<@planetmaker>It was a clear and friendly joke by Eddi|zuHause and no-one had any bad thoughts about that or you
14:46<Simonn>chill out ingo
14:46<Simonn>you are right i'm sorry Eddi|zuHause
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14:47<andythenorth>sheep on snow are near-invisible
14:47<Simonn>hi Supercheese
14:47<Supercheese>Heya
14:48<Rubidium>evening strangers
14:49<@planetmaker>hi not-so-stranger ;-)
14:50<andythenorth>who's stranger than Rubidium ?
14:50<Supercheese>A strange quark?
14:51<@planetmaker>andythenorth, face the mirror ;-)
14:51<@planetmaker>(or maybe I should)
14:53<andythenorth>I could paint the sheep red
14:53<andythenorth>23 industries converted :P
14:53<Supercheese>Black sheep?
14:53<andythenorth>nearly 50% done
14:53<FLHerne>andythenorth: What are you converting industries to?
14:53<andythenorth>houses
14:53<Supercheese>lies :P
14:53<andythenorth>it will optimise performance
14:54<@Yexo>FLHerne: he's increasing the filesize of firs
14:55<FLHerne>andythenorth: Sounds impractical :P
14:55<FLHerne>Is it yet more abstraction? :P
14:55<@Yexo>just changing the abstraction a bit
14:55<Supercheese>Making it lots harder to compile it
14:55<Supercheese>:P
14:55<@Yexo>moving part of it to python templates with chameleon
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14:56<andythenorth>making it much easier to add things like....snow, fences, animated tiles, and date sensitive graphics
14:57<andythenorth>and also making it practical to do economies
14:57<andythenorth>and also reducing the amount I complain about c pre-processor
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15:47<Simonn>http://www.pictureshack.us/images/58790_openttd.png
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15:59<@Alberth>somewhat massive :)
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16:31<NGC3982>Christ.
16:32<Simonn>???
16:34<NGC3982>Looks neat. :)
16:34<Simonn>:D
16:36<Wolf01>'night
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17:08<@Terkhen>good night
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure christ never built anything remotely similar :p
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17:10<__ln__>how much bread and fish would he produce per month, and what cargo does he accept?
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17:14<V453000>candyfloss no doubt
17:15<V453000>maybe some batteries, too
17:15<Simonn>pff but everything is so fully build
17:15<Simonn>it's not funny anymore
17:16<V453000>might want to include trains more within the city itself, more smaller stations delivering to the big ones
17:18<Zuu>Simonn: Your screenshot does actually have trains and not just lots of rails as some "massive" screenshot on the forums tend to have.
17:19-!-Simonn [Simon@109.66-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:19<V453000>(4way junction examples etc) right Zuu :)
17:20-!-Simonn [Simon@73.79-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #openttd
17:20<Simonn>[23:19] <Simonn> there are trains in the city, like lil trams picking the people up from home
17:20<Simonn>[23:19] <Simonn> and getting them to the stations
17:25<V453000>yeah, the trams are making it a bit too simple ;)
17:25<V453000>getting it all with trains is really nice
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17:37<Simonn>http://nohost.be/nl/upload2.png
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17:41<@planetmaker>I really wonder why you "waste" so many more passenger traffic by the huge amounts of company-owned land around your stations, Simonn
17:42<Simonn>what do you mean
17:43<@planetmaker>everywhere where you have bought land, a town house could be - and generate traffic for your station
17:43<Simonn>I got loads of traffic the stations can only handl like half
17:43<Simonn>they are for expansion
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17:51<V453000>most of the tiles are actually unbuildable anyway
17:52<V453000>btw consider using magic bulldozer cheat when playing with towns
17:52<V453000>makes it easier to manipulate with town stuff, and you cant reduce your local authority
17:52<V453000>so no more pain when building new stations or needing to demolish some buildings
18:05<Simonn>magic bulldozer?
18:06<V453000>press ctrl alt C to access the menu which turns it on, you can delete anything in the game with it. And you do not get authority penalties for the demolitions
18:06<V453000>it makes games with towns a lot more fun
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18:09<Simonn>oo
18:09<Simonn>I didn't know that :$
18:14<V453000>now you do :)
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18:46<FLHerne>@ports
18:46<@DorpsGek>FLHerne: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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---Logclosed Mon Oct 22 00:00:54 2012