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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-10-24

---Logopened Wed Oct 24 00:00:50 2012
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03:04<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:07<Knogle>if you say so
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05:01<dihedral>hellpo
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05:07<NGC3982>Morning.
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05:33<Nickshanks>wiki.openttd.org/Stations should link to [[Distant-join stations]]
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06:33<@planetmaker>nickshanks, it's a wiki, you know :-)
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07:42<nickshanks>planetmaker: yes but editing is disabled for unregistered users, and registration of new user accounts is disabled
07:42<nickshanks>ergo I have tried to find a way to contact someone who can edit it
07:50<@peter1138>Does it need one of these accounts? http://account.openttd.org/en/signup
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07:52<nickshanks>peter1138: yes! that worked. now I can edit stuff
07:54-!-andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
07:54*andythenorth ponders how to build two grfs from one FIRS
07:55<nickshanks>okay, I added a link.
07:58<andythenorth>two makefiles
07:58<andythenorth>or two targets for the makefile
07:58<andythenorth>pass in an arg to the build script for the grf
07:58<andythenorth>switch templates 8bpp / 32bpp
07:59<andythenorth>produce one or two grfs, in one or two zip files
07:59<andythenorth>win?
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07:59<nickshanks>when building other people's random stuff, I like one makefile that does everything :)
08:06<NGC3982>A bit of an arbitrary question
08:06<NGC3982>But, how much can a normal modern freight engine pull?
08:06<NGC3982>2000 tonnes, or 20,000 tonnes? Im not used to the scales..
08:07<andythenorth>depends on ruling grade, adhesion, friction, tractive effort (weight)
08:08<andythenorth>and horsepower
08:08<andythenorth>and are you talking about in-game, or irl?
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08:13<NGC3982>IRL
08:13<NGC3982>Sorry. :p
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08:15<andythenorth>NGC3982: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_59#Notable_workings_and_accidents
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08:16<andythenorth>~12,000t for 3,300hp
08:16<andythenorth>that's the european record though
08:16<NGC3982>I see
08:16<NGC3982>Well, at least that's giving me a somewhat decent scale
08:17<NGC3982>I was actually not aware if the numbers were in the thousands, or tens of thousands.
08:17<andythenorth>thousands would be more common
08:18<NGC3982>A horsepower per tonne, or something
08:19<andythenorth>in the US any given route has a hp-per-tonne ratio
08:19<andythenorth>which is governed by the ruling grade
08:19<andythenorth>and the type of power used
08:19<andythenorth>not enough hp, the train crew will have to double the grade
08:19<andythenorth>which is...bad
08:19<andythenorth>because then they have to re-air the train
08:20<andythenorth>AC power has a lot more ability to creep a grade than DC power though
08:20<andythenorth>@calc 36*32
08:20<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1152
08:21<andythenorth>NGC3982: ^ a typical UK coal train would have about that amount of cargo, with a ~3000 hp locomotive
08:21<Soft>So I have this weird problem with openttd. Only carriages are shown in the rail vechiles window and I cannot find a way to buy a locomotive.
08:21<andythenorth>+ tare weight
08:21<Soft>I only started playing yeasterday so maybe this is some common beginner mistake.
08:21<andythenorth>bbl
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08:21<Soft>the locomotives were visible before
08:23<NGC3982>APTX: Ah, i see.
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08:23<NGC3982>and.. wat.
08:23<NGC3982>Oh.
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08:24<APTX>huh?
08:24<NGC3982>APTX: Sorry, bad hilight.
08:24<NGC3982>:)
08:26<NGC3982>By the way, i fail to find an rcon entry on how to change Plane speed factor?
08:28<NGC3982>Oh, it seems unchangeable during network games.
08:28<NGC3982>Bummer.
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09:20<@Belugas>hello
09:24<V453000>hi, is somewhere a setting to change the time that clients have to connect to the server?
09:31<Ammler>yes
09:33<V453000>good, thanks
09:33<V453000>:P
09:37<TyrHeimdal>max_join_time
09:38<@planetmaker>nickshanks, I see, I wasn't aware that one couldn't register (anymore) via the wiki :-) Thanks for adding that piece of info
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10:12<nickshanks>Folks, I'm new to TTD. I have read http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals and http://www.darkcoding.net/misc/openttd-trains-and-signals-for-beginners-a-tutorial/ and http://kokolokus.de/?s=blog&v=6 yet I still don't understand signals :/
10:12<nickshanks>I have two double-track stations
10:13<nickshanks>i know i should join them with double track, and put crossovers outside each station
10:13<nickshanks>somwhat like this: http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals#Basic_two-way_station but the station is a terminus
10:14<V453000>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Presignal_Basics
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10:14<Flygon>Well, if it's a terminus, just build the same station design... but without tracks going out one end :p
10:14<DanMacK>Hey all
10:14<nickshanks>but the last link I posted doesn't specify which signals are used, nor explain why
10:15<nickshanks>they all seem to be one-way
10:16<Flygon>Use the Path Signal type signal for the signal closest to the station, build the crossover, then use one way signals... is what I'm pretty sure I should be saying
10:16<Flygon>Path signals being the 2nd from the right, and one-way being the 1st from the right
10:18<Flygon>I should feel bad for joining this channel, and then just instantly trying to help peeps new to this game, despite never having been in this channel before... but it's 1:17AM and I'm bored... and having been baffled by signals myself, well, dayum :B
10:19<nickshanks>i appreciate the efforts
10:19<Flygon>No worries
10:19<Flygon>It'd be even easier to set up a multiplayer game, and work from there
10:20<nickshanks>on that basic two-way station, there are eight signals
10:20<nickshanks>when you say 'first from the right' whice right are you referring to? :)
10:20<nickshanks>*which
10:21<Flygon>Hmmm
10:21<Flygon>Lemme try to MSPaint up some station :p
10:22<nickshanks>label the signals A, B and C, and say whether each is one-way, block/entry/exit/combo/path
10:23<Flygon>Though, in almost every game I play
10:23<Flygon>I use only two types of signals
10:23<Flygon>The Path signal, and the one way
10:23<nickshanks>the light signals are harder to distinguish between block and path types. i will use semaphore ones
10:23<nickshanks>i can tell the difference between yellow and red
10:24<Flygon>Ahh
10:24<Flygon>Uuh
10:24<Flygon>I just took a screenie with Lights, heh...
10:24<nickshanks>doesn't matter :)
10:24<nickshanks>as long as i know which is which
10:24<Flygon>The game I have running uses GRF's that replace the semaphores... and makes them hard to see
10:25<nickshanks>the basic problem i have with the wiki is all it says for this is "With this station layout, trains can use both platforms when coming from either direction."
10:25<nickshanks>and I am left thinking "what exactly is the layout? and why does it work?"
10:25<Flygon>Uploading the screenie
10:26<Flygon>Ahh
10:26<Flygon>It's because the trains can go from the signals put in the platform from behind
10:26<Flygon>And the one way signal will block the train if both platforms are full
10:26<nickshanks>that wouldn't work with a terminus though
10:26<nickshanks>because the tracks are two-way
10:26<Flygon>https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/basictwowaystation.png Red is the signals that block trains, but trains can go through from behind
10:27<Flygon>And purple are the signals that are one way; trains cannot go from behind these signals
10:28<Flygon>Also, to help understand the way a train's pathfinding works better.... as in, how it's planned
10:28<Flygon>I recommend going to the Advanced Options
10:28<NGC3982>This was odd.
10:28<NGC3982>Im running a dedicated server on my own
10:29<Flygon>Display Options > Show Reserved Tracks: On
10:29<NGC3982>I made sure that min_active_clients was set to "1", so that the game pauses when nobody is online.
10:29<Flygon>It also helps you detect traffic jams much more easily
10:29<@planetmaker>nickshanks, but it's true. The easiest approach to signaling is path signals:
10:30<nickshanks>okay, yes i saw that in some screenshots
10:30<@planetmaker>build a path signal there where a train may stop without blocking any important track pieces like junctions
10:30<nickshanks>show reserved tracks, i mean
10:30<NGC3982>For some reason, time flows on the server when im not online.
10:30<@planetmaker>thus your station will need exactly one signal at the entrance before the X
10:30<Flygon>Also, I'll take a screenie of a successful terminus to show you an example of one :p
10:30<@planetmaker>NGC3982, min_active_clients > 0 ?
10:30<nickshanks>so if I use path signals, i never need block signals?
10:30<Flygon>planetmaker: You put these things in words I fail to use :3
10:30<nickshanks>thanks flygon
10:30<@planetmaker>yes. kinda
10:31<nickshanks>i spend 99% of my time playing this game paused :)
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10:31<@planetmaker>I've tried to explain them a few times, Flygon ;-)
10:32<Flygon>https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/cubaterminus.png Terminus using exactly the same method
10:32<@planetmaker>nickshanks, why? does time matter?
10:32<nickshanks>I wish there was a free/open clone of Railroad Tycoon 2
10:32<NGC3982>It's not constistent, but i closed down the server and did not open it for four hours. When i closed it, the year was 2010. When i join again, it's 2017?
10:32<nickshanks>i had it many years ago but it never got carbonised
10:32<Flygon>planetmaker: Probably because it's easier to build new parts of a live network
10:32<@planetmaker>(yes, it does, if you play with defaults, where vehicles become unavailable after some time. I tend to forget that)
10:32<Flygon>As unrealistic as that is :p
10:32<NGC3982>Flygon: I do that.
10:33<Flygon>As do I
10:33<@planetmaker>Flygon, easier yes. But that's the part of playing I find most interesting among a few other select things
10:33<Flygon>But planet is right
10:33<Flygon>It's more thrilling to do it live
10:33<Flygon>As well as the chance to realize how stupid you are when you fail to prevent train crashes
10:33<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/xZdDu.png,
10:33<Flygon>I've crashed many a train because I changed a signal at a bad time :B
10:34<@planetmaker>who hasn't done that? ;-)
10:34<nickshanks>flygon: as best I can tell, the second screenshot is the same as the first in terms of signalling
10:34<@planetmaker>but as I play MP most of the time, stopping time is not really an option for me
10:34<Flygon>Exactly
10:35<Flygon>I'd like to play MP with friends... but we'd like to play long drawn out games on 2048*2048 maps over the course of 200+ years
10:35<nickshanks>well in my game it was Apr 20th when i decided I eff'd up and went back to jan 3rd which is when i first saved
10:36<Flygon>Obviously not an option when the net-sync craps out on anything bigger than 512*512 :p
10:36<@planetmaker>nickshanks, activate autosave on a monthly basis ;-)
10:37<@planetmaker>Flygon, the network or server has no issues with big maps. The clients do
10:37<Flygon>Yeah, exactly
10:37<@planetmaker>2k^2 maps just are too big to be fun. You can't finish them
10:37<Flygon>Ehhh
10:37<Flygon>I've come close, in SP
10:39<Flygon>But then again, close is subjective
10:39<Flygon>The North America scenario is brilliant, either way
10:39<nickshanks>okay, new problem: there's a transmitter along the path where i would like to build, and it says "cost to clear: N/A". does that mean I can't clear it?
10:40<Flygon>Yes
10:40<Flygon>Transmitters are unplowable, without a magic bulldozer
10:40<nickshanks>so, basically i have to choose another place to put the station
10:41<Flygon>Yes
10:45<Flygon>Anyway, I come with a bizarre question
10:46<Flygon>Is the only way to make 'green' tiles out of 'desert' tiles in the Sub-tropical climate inside the scenario editor, to place lakes, and bomb them?
10:47<V453000>does that even work?
10:47<V453000>lakes
10:47<nickshanks>i like this: unpause demolish pause; unpause build station pause -> station is exploding :)
10:47<Flygon>V453000: Natural lakes, not artificial
10:52<@planetmaker>Flygon, ctrl+place desert
10:53<@planetmaker>I hope the tooltip of that explains it, too (at least in English and German it should)
10:53<@planetmaker>afaik
10:53<Flygon>I bloody love you, mate
10:53<Flygon>You're a lifesaver!
10:54<NGC3982>Can someone let me know if Andy returns?
10:54<@planetmaker>beware... I just toy around with something like a rail gun ;-)
10:54<@planetmaker>and it's bloody fun :D
10:54<NGC3982>:O
10:54<Flygon>I'll try to avoid playing Quake 3 with you
10:54<nickshanks>next question: is there a way to rotate the map? if so, it's very well hidden
10:54<@planetmaker>nah... the real thing.... linear motors ftw :)
10:54<NGC3982>No, there isnt.
10:55<Flygon>Fine, I'll hope you're not Australian :p
10:55<@planetmaker>accelerating in 1.5 milliseconds from 0 to 5m/s is... fast ;-)
10:56<@planetmaker>with a load of a few kg
10:56<Rubidium>how many g is that?
10:56<@planetmaker>330g
10:56<@planetmaker>not sure I trust the software yet
10:56<@planetmaker>but that's what it says
10:58<Rubidium>how did you calculate that?
10:58<V453000>what that works? the ctrl place desert? never knew :D live and learn
10:58<Rubidium>@calc 5/0.0015
10:58<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 3333.33333333
10:59<@planetmaker>Rubidium, the acceleration is the actual parameter I set. And that's 3.3 km/s^2
10:59<@planetmaker>and 1g = 10m/s^2
10:59<@planetmaker>and yes ^
11:00<Flygon>Okay, it's hit 2AM
11:00<Flygon>You guys are absolutely wonderful
11:00<Flygon>G'night!
11:00<@planetmaker>sleep well
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11:02<NGC3982>planetmaker: Jeez.
11:03<NGC3982>Wait, this is only software?
11:03*Rubidium finally found his thinking error
11:03<NGC3982>"load of a few kg" in 10m/s^2 is a bit of a umpf.
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---Logclosed Wed Oct 24 12:40:21 2012
---Logopened Wed Oct 24 12:44:23 2012
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13:34<Wolf01>hello o/
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24625 /trunk/src/lang (3 files in 2 dirs) (2012-10-24 17:45:18 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>latvian - 24 changes by Parastais
13:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 17 changes by jhsoby
13:45<@DorpsGek>tamil - 196 changes by aswn
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13:48<Simonn>http://nohost.be/nl/upload3.png expansion
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14:06<Pinkbeast>Are you still building that mad gigantic station?
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14:11<Simonn>yes
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16:21<__ln__>silencio
16:21<@peter1138>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9emjalsOsE
16:27<NGC3982>Haha
16:28<NGC3982>That was a fantastic version.
16:28<NGC3982>Man, that track was litteraly ezploded.
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16:49<frosch123>night
16:49*andythenorth is on a British Army diet
16:49<andythenorth>tea with sugar
16:49<andythenorth>bye Fremen
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16:49<andythenorth>gah wrong autocomplete :P
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16:55<Fremen>mehe
16:55<andythenorth>sorry :)
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17:16<@Terkhen>good night
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17:49<Wolf01>'night
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17:55<Simonn>I'm really starting to get this openttd trains thing
17:55<Simonn>:p
17:56<Simonn>make my network, add a bit more trains, check for bottlenecks, add a bit more , ...
17:56<Simonn>till its just right
17:56<Rubidium>I just detected an infinite loop in your logic
17:57<Simonn>yeah the network is over capacity now
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19:25<BadBrett>helloooo
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---Logclosed Thu Oct 25 00:00:51 2012