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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-10-26

---Logopened Fri Oct 26 00:00:52 2012
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02:26<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:46<__ln__>snowy morning
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02:49<szaman>sunny morning
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02:59<@Terkhen>rainy here
03:20<DDR>Night here.
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04:10<NGC3982>MNIM: It's nothing unusual, too.
04:11<NGC3982>They seem to lack strategic thinking all together
04:11<NGC3982>I have an old school mate stationed with NATO outside of Somalia
04:12<NGC3982>And he regularly talks about how the pirates doesn't seem to understand what they go up against.
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04:12<NGC3982>Firing at canon housings with AK47's and stuff.
04:12<NGC3982>It's trying to disarm a land mine by jumping on it
04:13<Markk>Do it IRL!
04:13<BadBrett>question: do the colors in a mask file matter or are they just "on/off"?
04:14<MNIM>ah yes, but this time they weren't shooting at the battleship, just at the rigids.
04:14<MNIM>...which isn't too smart still since those still got a buttload of firepower.
04:19<NGC3982>Buttload in a literal sense
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04:27<@peter1138>BadBrett, yes, it's an 8 bit palette index, using the ttd palette.
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04:29<BadBrett>yeah... so i guess the question is, what color should i set in the non-transparent areas?
04:31<BadBrett>i deleted the grf cache and got the results i expected :)
04:32<BadBrett>i thought it would notice when a gfx file had been modified though...
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04:37<BadBrett>but for some reason the recouring won't work... do i have to write code for the palette swapping as well?
04:37<@peter1138>grf cache?
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04:49<@planetmaker>did you enable re-colouring for that tile, BadBrett ?
04:49<BadBrett>yes... when i create grf file with newer versions of nml, it's obvious that the sprites are only processed the first time... after that i can make minor changes and it will only take a coupe of seconds to generate the grf... i thought it had something to do with the "grf.cache"-file
04:50<@planetmaker>peter1138, nml implements a cache file for the individual sprites in order to (tremendously) speed up grf generation on subsequent runs
04:50<BadBrett>yep, it's a great feature
04:51<@planetmaker>like opengfx build time with one modified sprite from 45 minutes to 5 or so
04:51*peter1138 waits for QC to update... i don't need too look at fat old naked people online when i can use a mirror
04:52<@planetmaker>hm, still no update. He seems to have moved his update time to a later time of the day :-(
04:52<BadBrett>this is a vehicle, do i have to enable re-colouring for those as well?
04:52<@peter1138>you're using the right palette indices?
04:54<BadBrett>probably no :)
04:54<@peter1138>you want the range marked company
04:55<@peter1138>i'm guessing that there's no graphics editing program that'll mix rgba and paletted layers :(
04:56<BadBrett>yeah that's the one, thanks
04:59<BadBrett>alright, so if i only use colors within that range, it should work properly?
05:00<+michi_cc>And index 0 (magic blue) for everything that should get no remap at all.
05:00<BadBrett>yeah, i know...
05:02<BadBrett>*crosses fingers that matlab will find the correct palette index automatically*
05:06<BadBrett>yes! great success! thanks everyone :)
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05:17<BadBrett>i guess that "patch company 2" is for the second company color?
05:21<MNIM>you would guess correctly
05:33<nickshanks>Are there any plans to include higher resolution artwork in the OpenGFX base set?
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05:39<nickshanks>Also, why can graphics-only NewGRFs not be enabled/disabled whilst playing a game?
05:40<@Terkhen>nickshanks: check zbase, it is a WIP
05:41<@Terkhen>the code of each NewGRF can depend on other NewGRFs, and they can react in unexpected ways if you change your NewGRF selection
05:42<nickshanks>zBase has severe glitches
05:42<@Terkhen>mostly because the NewGRF spec were not designed to take removal/addition into account
05:43<@Terkhen>yes, it is a work in progress, please report any glitches that you find
05:43<MNIM>and of course, we can NOT touch the newgrf spec!
05:43<nickshanks>i was running the latest revision of zBase on top of trunk OpenTTD on Mac OS X, and many of the building's bases disappeared at the highest zoom
05:43<@peter1138>zbase is a WIP
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05:44<MNIM>nickshanks: OSX? well thar's yer problem
05:44<nickshanks>where should errors be reported?
05:45<Ammler> or
05:45<nickshanks>also, at standard zoom, OpenGFX looks better as the tiles aren't blurry
05:45<@Terkhen>MNIM: the most important thing that prevents changing the specs is that you would need to scrap all existing NewGRFs
05:46<Ammler>be sure to have no other newgrf enabled and best is to report with screenshots
05:46<Flygon>And you'd only make $100 from scrapping it
05:46<Flygon>It's not really worth scrapping it, considering the assets that'd be wasted from doing so
05:48<MNIM>Terkhen: I am well aware, though I fail to see why we cannot make a new spec alongside of it.
05:49<BadBrett>is there some way i can make a vehicle part invisible without using an empty spriteset?
05:49<@Terkhen>you can, but the old NewGRFs would not be compatible with the new ones
05:50<MNIM>Correct, but as it stands there are plenty of newGRFs that are already incompatible with others.
05:50<@Terkhen>I doubt that NewGRF developers would appreciate all of their work being deprecated
05:51<Flygon>I'm under the assumption that an OpenTTD client that can load both 'old style' GRF's and 'new style' GRF's is impossible?
05:51<nickshanks>it sounds like what is needed is a new mod format designed to do everything that is desired, AND automated tools to convert between the old NewGRF format and the new one (which hopefully will be blessed with a better name)
05:51<@Terkhen>I'm speculating anyways, maybe someone can come up with some NewerGRF specs that do not have those problems or ^
05:51<Flygon>eg. like how Microsoft included basic support for DOS apps 2k onwards?
05:52<Flygon>Also, one really insane, stupid stupid stuid question nags in the back of my mind
05:52<Flygon>Is the GRF format used by OpenTTD the same as Ragnarok Online's?
05:52<BadBrett>in my opinion, it would not be wise to do any radical changes, considering the rage the removal of png loading caused
05:53<MNIM>nick: automagic conversion would be neigh-on impossible
05:53<@Terkhen>Flygon: I'm assuming until proven otherwise that loading NewGRFs from both specs at the same time would be impossible, of course you could load both separatedly
05:53<MNIM>BadBrett: well, let's be honest, /any/ change would enrage some
05:53<Flygon>Terkhen: I'll just get an RO based GRF unpacker and see if it works on OTTD :P
05:53<MNIM>one of the most important rules of the internet and life in general: no matter what you do, someone somewhere will be pissed off at you for doing it.
05:54<Flygon>MNIM is right, so very right
05:55<MNIM>Terkhen: 64bit OSes can load 32bit apps by having both systems in place and assuming an app is 32bit unless marked otherwise.
05:55<BadBrett>MNIM: yeah... i didn't think the removal of png-loading was such a big deal... it took me an afternoon to write a script that converted all my work to the NewGRF format... but, the community still lost many great artists
05:56<nickshanks>by the way, compiling OpenTTD on Mac was a painless "./configure && make"
05:57<@Terkhen>Flygon: I know nothing about that format but our NewGRF format is TTDPatch/OpenTTD specifix
05:58<nickshanks>BadBrett: did you release your script for others to use?
05:58<Flygon>Yeah, it fails to load
05:58<BadBrett>nope, cause i'm using matlab, which most people don't use
05:59<Flygon>RO's implementation was basically either a file that hosted files, and either stored them uncompressed or used basic ZIP compression...
05:59<@Terkhen>MNIM: the source of incompatibility would not be the formats themselves but their design; the old specs would still be designed to let any NewGRF affect any other
05:59<__ln__>nickshanks: didn't you need to --disable-lzma and something else?
05:59<Flygon>But, yeah, I cannae unpack with RO tools
05:59<@Terkhen>if the new specs prevent that by design...
05:59<Flygon>I'll assume the naming is a coincidence :3
05:59<nickshanks>__ln__: to build it? no, I didn't read any instructions. just configure and make
06:00<nickshanks>what's lzma anyway
06:00<@Terkhen>it is not a trivial problem, there might be a way but from what I know about the NewGRF specs it is impossible
06:00<Flygon>lzma is a form of compression, iirc
06:00<@Terkhen>I would be glad to be proven wrong
06:01<Flygon> :D
06:02<Flygon>Anyway, sorry for being a bother, Terkhen
06:03<@Terkhen>it wasn't a bother :P
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06:05<@peter1138>BadBrett, lost a lot of artists? unlikely as the whole thing was stalled long before we did that
06:06<BadBrett>hmm maybe... like i said, i was one of those who didn't mind the change, but i know several people were quite upset
06:06<@peter1138>mostly cos none of them could agree on a license
06:06<@peter1138>the upset people didn't know why we'd done it
06:07<@peter1138>i guess they somehow assumed we did it to spite them
06:07<Flygon>When focusing on a change such as this
06:08<Flygon>Never, never only look at who was upset by it... always calculate whom was made happier from it, too
06:09<BadBrett>the thing is that i still use the old nightly build to test many of the sprites i make
06:10<BadBrett>and like i said earlier, converting it isn't that time consuming
06:10<@peter1138>actually, apart from the devs, i don't think anybody really knows why, as nobody has ever asked
06:11<Flygon>So the situation is, the devs made changed the specifications for something, and this upset a lot of users
06:11<BadBrett>you're probably right
06:11<@peter1138>also i get the blame for it even though it wasn't my doing :D
06:11<Flygon>Partially because they weren't informed why
06:11<Flygon>Soo... the devs involved weren't transparent enough?
06:12<@peter1138>i hate that word used like that
06:12<Flygon>Or am I looking at this totally the wrong way?
06:12<@peter1138>transparent means see through
06:12<@peter1138>you can't see through me, i'm a solid being
06:12<Flygon>I thought of using a different word...
06:12<Flygon>But I couldn't think of any good ones
06:12<Flygon>My English isn't very good
06:12<@peter1138>it's not?
06:13<Flygon>I'm certainly not very skilled at speaking it :p
06:13<@peter1138>well it's a damn sight better than a lot of native speaker's english
06:13<Flygon>Unfortunately, it's also the only language I'm good at communicating with, hahaha
06:13<BadBrett>anyway, my point is, that doing radical changes to the grf system would (probably) not be a wise decision
06:13<Flygon>I am a native speaker
06:13<@peter1138>well, still
06:13<Markk>Flygon: Aren't you from Australia?
06:13<@peter1138>oh well, that's your problem :-)
06:13<Flygon>But I'm translating everything into British
06:14<Markk>British :3
06:14<Flygon>And that makes it a tripe hard to get certain phrases across
06:14<MNIM>Flygon: I don't think your english is that bad. Considering I think it of people quite often and fast, that's a compliment!
06:14<__ln__>is your name Bruce?
06:14<Flygon>Nah, I share my name with an American founding father
06:14<Flygon>And I don't like it very much
06:15<MNIM>also, yeah, your use of transparent was right, though I'm not sure if what you said is right. Peter was just being silly :P
06:15<Flygon>So for the purposes of this discussion, my name is trademarked by Nintendo
06:15<Flygon>If my name was Gamecube, I'd get it changed to Dolphin
06:16<@peter1138>anyway, it turns out the reasons were explained, but everyone still complained anyway
06:16<Flygon>That puts me up from being named by a Bogan, to being named by a Stoner
06:16<@peter1138>obviously not actually everyone :)
06:16<Flygon>peter1138: Okay, so, they were transparent
06:17<BadBrett>nobody likes a bogan
06:17<Flygon>Soo... a case of humans hating anything involving the deadly super evil reated-to-Hiter-and-communism C-word
06:17<@planetmaker>Flygon, Rb even released a conversion script from old to new way. Still no-one could be bothered to employ it and make it use to release anything by means of it
06:17<@planetmaker>that imho speaks volumes
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06:17<Flygon>planetmaker: Oh wow...
06:18<Flygon>That's... yeah
06:18<__ln__>can we change the topic to "English or Australian only"?
06:18<Flygon>I'm surprised the users could be so irrational
06:18<Flygon>The OpenTTD community is one of the nicest I've ever seen
06:18<@peter1138>yeah, i think they thought that because *we* the devs couldn't release anything, that meant they *the artists* couldn't either
06:18<@peter1138>which is kinda... odd
06:18<@peter1138>i might be wrong
06:19<@planetmaker>I just find it mega tedious to look at the license of every single sprite. I started with it somewhat but was so bored quickly...
06:19<MNIM>I think the answer may be found in the fact that a lot of contributing people in the community may be considered 'socially hindered'
06:19<@planetmaker>it was enough fun having done a similar thing for newgrfs which then somewhat triggered the creation of bananas
06:20<@peter1138>MNIM, especially the devs
06:20<@planetmaker>(jointly with dihedral back in ye ol' days ;-) )
06:20<MNIM>shit sure went bananas back then!
06:20<Markk>Did you take a joint with dihedral?
06:20<Markk>Or were you a couple?
06:20<@planetmaker>I've never met him in person
06:20<MNIM>lol, both would be pretty fun
06:20<Flygon>I read that as 'never met him in prison'
06:20<Flygon>Good job, Flygon
06:21<@planetmaker>Flygon, would also be true ;-)
06:21<Markk>Flygon: :D
06:21<@planetmaker> <-- getting that table was... quite a bit communication needed
06:21<@planetmaker>as back then there was no way to conveniently obtain more than one newgrf (legally)
06:22<dihedral>\o/ those were the days ;-)
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06:23<@planetmaker>I'm very happy to have bananas now... no desire to use any non-hassle-free newgrfs. whatever they may be
06:23<MNIM>speaking of newgrfs.
06:23<Markk>I would like an apple.
06:23<dihedral>i think bananas is a huge step forward, and whoever does not publish their stuff there, misses out
06:23<@planetmaker>I have a pear
06:23<MNIM>I suddenly realized I don't think I have FISH standard on my games.
06:23<MNIM>shame on me.
06:24<@planetmaker>yeah, not using FISH is a punishable crime, or should be :-P
06:24*dihedral has no time for such things
06:25<@planetmaker>:-( we miss you, d
06:25<MNIM>what things?
06:25<dihedral>what can i do you for?
06:25<@planetmaker>play games, write game control bot with nice web interface, ... :D
06:25<dihedral>i know i know - you want grapes :-P
06:25<Markk>Flygon: Have you heard of The Cat Empire?
06:25<@planetmaker>of course!
06:25<dihedral>i want it too ...
06:26<Flygon>Why do you ask?
06:26-!-DDR [] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work]
06:26<dihedral>yet currently spare time goes into wedding prep :-/
06:26<Markk>Flygon: They're Austrailian, that's why I asked. :)
06:26<@planetmaker>hehe, good on ya, dihedral :-)
06:26<Flygon>If they a TV show, they sound like they're funded by the ABC :p
06:26<@planetmaker>here or at the other side of the ocean?
06:26<Markk>Flygon: A really nice ska band.
06:26<dihedral>karlsruhe ;-)
06:27<Flygon>Ska band?
06:27<Markk>Flygon: And they seem really awesome live:
06:28<__ln__>whose wedding?
06:28<Flygon>Can't watch videos at the moment, sorry x:
06:28<dihedral>sorry to break it to you via irc __ln__
06:29<dihedral>it just would not have worked out with us :-P
06:29<MNIM>oh? ska?
06:29*MNIM flees to a certain evil site to illegally acquire
06:30<Flygon>I don't really listen to much in the way of music
06:31<Markk>That could explain it then. :)
06:31<Flygon> This does have a fantastic cover, however :D
06:33<Markk>Die Suche nach dem Zauberstab von Demnos in die Sauerkraut.
06:34<MNIM>speaking of covers!
06:35<Flygon>By cover, I meant
06:35<Flygon>The art
06:35<Flygon>Told you there's a language barrier :D
06:38<MNIM>anyway. RBF rules
06:40<__ln__>what was the australian word for a pond?
06:40<Flygon>What year is it
06:40<Flygon>And what country?
06:40<MNIM>well, australia, obviously.
06:40<MNIM>and the year is 2012.
06:40<Flygon>What country is the pound from?
06:40<MNIM>not long to go any more before the apocalypse!
06:40<__ln__>not pound, pond.
06:41<MNIM>Flygon: pond, not pound.
06:41<Flygon>Distracted by TV
06:41<MNIM>that's one word that does not get an extra U!
06:41<Flygon>We call it pond
06:41<@planetmaker>...crying cockles and mussles, alive, alive, oh!...
06:41<MNIM>no sheet?
06:42<Flygon>Sorry for getting so confused
06:45<@planetmaker>we can only excuse that, if you build us a station where you pickup either 100k goods or 100k passengers a month.
06:46<Flygon>What's the max station spread?
06:46<Flygon>I'm too lazy
06:46<Markk>Can you by somehow expand the station spread?
06:46<@planetmaker>then we can't excuse your confusion, I'm afraid ;-)
06:46<Markk>(By more than 64 tiles)
06:46<@planetmaker>Markk, not beyond 64 unless you change source code
06:46<Flygon>planetmaker: What if Confuse Ray?
06:47<@planetmaker>err no parse :-)
06:48<Flygon>This guy is invulnerable
06:48<@planetmaker>if it's a name it doesn't tell me anything :-)
06:48<Flygon>And it doesn't help I keep reading his name as planetbuster
06:48<dada__>I once made a map with too low snow line height, meaning I couldn't make farms. but I didn't want to start over. so I recompiled openttd with the snow check turned off...
06:49<Flygon>dada__: You can get population growth without food
06:49<@planetmaker>I'm not a Vogon. I'm building them... I'm looking for new nice creaks and fjords right now ;-)
06:49<dada__>re: recompiling openttd
06:49<Flygon>You just need a lot of money and patience
06:49<dada__>Flygon, I thought on subarctic it was impossible without food? or maybe it's just really really sl ow?
06:49<Flygon>Constantly select build ew buildings
06:49<dada__>lol ah I see
06:49<dada__>I prefer my solution hehe
06:49<Flygon>Less money spent?
06:49<@planetmaker>and if you select snowling too high you don't get wood ;-)
06:50<Flygon>Also, I have a bone to pick with OTTD's representation of Australian money
06:50<@planetmaker>*snow line
06:50<dada__>ah I see
06:50<Flygon>The Australian Pound hasn't been used since the 1960s
06:50<dada__>well, openttd games start in 1950 by default :)
06:50<@planetmaker>he :-)
06:51<Flygon>But what if a game was done starting from 1990?
06:51<dada__>I forget, does the currency "evolve" into the euro, when you use a european currency and go past 2002?
06:51<dada__>maybe something similar can be done for the australian dollar/pound
06:51<@planetmaker>for those currencies which have a euro introduction rate defined
06:51<dada__>I say, propose a patch
06:52<dada__>should not be too hard to program, most likely
06:52<Flygon>It helps we just went from Pound to Dollar, as part of decimalization
06:52<@planetmaker>suggesting patches is easy. writing... is the difficult part
06:52<dada__>well I meant write
06:52<@peter1138>good job ottd has no mention of australian currency at all
06:52<__ln__>getting patches accepted is the nearly impossible part
06:53<__ln__>do australians use money?
06:53<@peter1138>no they use plastic
06:53<Flygon>Plastic Fantastic!
06:53<Flygon>PIN is annoying, though :B
06:53<dada__>they use snake oil. they've got plenty of snakes, after all
06:54<dada__>here in the netherlands we really pay with clogs and tulips. the whole euro thing? just for tourists.
06:54<@peter1138>planetmaker, are going to have to add a "switch away from euro date" at some point? :p
06:54<Flygon>In OTTD, it's listed as Australian Shilling
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06:54<@planetmaker>who knows.
06:54<@peter1138>Flygon, no it's not
06:54<dada__>maybe a "complete monetary system collapse" option
06:54<Flygon>I'll take a screenie
06:55<dada__>Flygon/ peter1138 could there be a discrepancy between UK/AUS/US english?
06:55<@planetmaker>dada__, not only could. There is
06:55<@peter1138>Flygon, austria isn't australia. you should no.
06:55<dada__>I've seen weird bugs before resulting from selecting either UK/US english when apparently the testers only used one of them
06:55<dada__>not in o penttd
06:55<dada__>but in other software
06:56<Flygon>All this time
06:56<Flygon>I was reading it
06:56<Flygon>As Australian
06:56<Flygon>I am so stupid, hahaha
06:56<dada__>up until a few versions ago, Google Drive was named ".app" if you used UK english because it literally had an empty translation string (the US version of course was proper)
06:57<@peter1138>anyone fancy making currency rates non-integer? heh
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06:58<Flygon>I can see that leading to situations where buying a locomotive would somehow cost $11,784.324238423
06:58<dada__>I think it would be fun to have a "demo" mode in openttd. where after you don't select anything in the main screen for a while, an AI starts editing the start map.
06:58<Flygon>...that would be pretty cool
06:59<NGC3982>Behind the menu screen
06:59<dada__>yeah, preferably with the tools/menus/etc shown (unlike the regular AIs)
06:59<dada__>though non-interactive
06:59<NGC3982>Like a recorded play, but without mouse and stuff?
06:59<@planetmaker>a GS could do that
07:00<dada__>perhaps a recorded play, although an AI would be particularly neat :)
07:00<@planetmaker>though showing GUI in main menu screen is not feasible w/o patch
07:00<NGC3982>Actually, this is not a bad idea, at all
07:00<NGC3982>Just like the old video games <3
07:00<dada__>yeah, I've got openttd running on a computer elsewhere in my room and I hear the start map playing, and it made me think of old video games being on display in the store :)
07:01<Flygon>Even more interesting, would be a randomized menu map
07:01<dada__>a prerecorded play could be useful, the play could show something simple like the construction of a coal/power line, then it would also have value for newbies
07:01<Flygon>Perhaps based off actual cities?
07:02<dada__>well, maybe next year I can find the time to start experimenting with the source..
07:02<@planetmaker>Flygon, for the stable release branches we so far had an annual titlegame contest...
07:02<Flygon>Ooh, interesting
07:02<dada__>yeah the contests rule, you should look them up. lots of great submissions
07:02<dada__>on the forum
07:02<Flygon>I should
07:02<@planetmaker>^^ full contest ;-)
07:02<Flygon>I've admittedly paid lots more attention to the game, than the community
07:02<@planetmaker>of the last time
07:03<dada__>yeah, me too
07:03<dada__>next time I should give the contest a shot
07:04<Flygon>I'd never be good for a contest
07:04<Flygon>I'm only good at designing things that look utilitarian
07:04<@planetmaker>dada__, you can already start it... the rules won't change: No NewGRFs, no AIs. No giant map (size < ~150k)
07:04<Flygon>These displayed ones are very snazzy
07:05<dada__>this seems exactly like the type of thing I'd like, all I ever do in openttd is change the landscape and micromanage all sorts of tiny things for aesthetic purposes
07:05<@planetmaker>Flygon, you can totally design the map and everything. All cheats allowed ;-)
07:06<Flygon>Again... I'm not very good at making things not look utilitarian :p
07:06<@planetmaker>hm, I should take home my laptop and ... add some titlescreens to our screenshot page.
07:10<@Terkhen>peter1138: for my own sake, I hope we do not need the switch back from euro patch :P
07:11<Flygon>planetmaker: The extent of my creativity :p
07:11<dada__>wonder if there's any interest in a high quality keyboard (with cherry mx keyswitches) that's designed with openttd in mind (hotkeys marked on the keys, perhaps icons on the F1-F12 keys)
07:11<Flygon>Except, the thing is
07:12<Flygon>It's not very representative of the game... because no waypoints for the secondary bays
07:14<dada__>yeah, and remember, no newgrfs
07:15<dada__>I don't know when the top bar was moved to the center by default but aaa I'm incapable of playing unless it's on the left side
07:15<Flygon>Yeah, that too :p
07:15<Flygon>Problem is
07:16<dada__>pet peeves, I guess it's a sign of having played a game too much
07:16<Flygon>I love Trams, hahaha
07:16<dada__>I like trams in principle but they're a bit more work to get right than buses so I ignore them mostly
07:16<@planetmaker>dada__, hotkeys are configurable
07:16<@planetmaker>and the actual key may change on your actual (localized) layout
07:16<dada__>planetmaker yeah, that's true, pretty sure most people just use the defaults though
07:16<Flygon>I always saw them as easier and more effective than busses
07:17<@planetmaker>Flygon, hotkeys.cfg
07:17<@planetmaker>next to your openttd.cfg
07:17<dada__>a custom keyboard would use the US ANSI layout so it ought to be consistent
07:17<Flygon>I meant the Trams vs Buses
07:17<Flygon>Not hotkeys :p
07:17<dada__>as long as it is configured as such
07:17<@planetmaker>urgs. /me wouldn't use a US layout
07:17<dada__>it's the One True Layout :)
07:17<dada__>which do you use, planetmaker?
07:17<Flygon>I'm Aussie
07:17<@planetmaker>German. Obviously
07:17<Flygon>So, US layout for me
07:18<Flygon>Oh, German
07:18<Flygon>You sent us Trams once
07:18<dada__>for some reason the dutch keyboard layout is almost identical to the US one, so it's not difficult for me to switch
07:18<Flygon>They're... alright
07:18<@planetmaker>other keyboards slow me down tremendously. I write 10-fingered and know all keys there without looking. Not so with other layouts
07:18<dada__>in japan I rode an amazing german tram from ~1890
07:18<@planetmaker>And dutch and US differ quite a bit with the extra keys
07:18<@planetmaker>in my experience. Yes, I used both
07:19<Flygon>dada__: Wow... what sort of Tram?
07:19<Flygon>Cable? Electric?
07:19<@planetmaker>but both are better than a French or Belgium keyboard layout ;-)
07:19<Flygon>Bendigo Tramways seem to love stockpiling assorted out Trams that can run on 600V
07:19<dada__>well there is a "proper" dutch keyboard layout that's slightly different, but in practive every keyboard that is sold is almost identical to the US layout. in fact if you configure it as a US keyboard, it still works 100% correctly.
07:20<@planetmaker>of course you can configure the layout software wise... but then the naming on the keyboard is off ;-)
07:20<dada__>if you're a store and you get the "proper" dutch keyboard layout that was designed at some point, nobody will buy it, they'll probably think it's german or UK or something
07:21<dada__> here's an example of the keyboard "everybody" has, it's basically identical to US ANSI except the enter key is different and the ~ and \ keys are placed elsewhere
07:21<@planetmaker>and US fails to provide support for the special characters used in European languages. especially äöüß etc
07:21<@Terkhen>Or ñ
07:21<dada__>I guess that's why the dutch keyboard is so similar to US, dutch doesn't have that many special characters
07:22<dada__>I like osx's special chars input method
07:22<@planetmaker>dada__, sucks, compared to direct input of the chars
07:22<dada__>yeah, that's true
07:22<Flygon>Try typing Japanese
07:22<dada__>I've actually been studying japanese for years
07:23<@planetmaker>and it's not exactly understandable why apple needs to define its separate keyboard layout
07:23<@planetmaker>Flygon, yes. and? Of course there it depends which script you type in :-)
07:23<@peter1138>so they can sell their own special keyboards
07:23<@planetmaker>But these asiatic language indeed need special input methods
07:23<dada__>it's not a special/separate keyboard layout, it's just the way you input special characters in the OS
07:23<dada__>the apple keyboard with dutch layout is the same as any other keyboard you buy here
07:23<Flygon>Point is
07:24<Flygon>From what I gather, Japanese is unfriendly to type in x3
07:24<@planetmaker>dada__, also @ at the same place?
07:24<dada__>planetmaker: yes, on every keyboard I have and every keyboard I've ever seen
07:25<dada__>but it's true that a "proper" dutch keyboard layout exists that d oes have the " in place of the @ plus some other changes, but it doesn't exist except in theory
07:26<dada__>Flygon: depends. there's romaji typing and kana typing. kana is particularly fast. I prefer romaji myself because I know the layout better of course. japanese is a very trim and compact language. so it's not that slow to type.
07:27*Flygon nod
07:27<Flygon>All I know is
07:27<Flygon>My main experience with Japanese is Pixiv
07:27<dada__>you type a word's phonetic characters, then you press space and 9 out of 10 times it turns into the right word
07:27<Flygon>And the resulting inability to translate for in such
07:28<dada__>the keyboard I designed for myself actually has kana characters, I don't use them though
07:28<Flygon>You can get keyboards cust- actually, I'm not too surprised, heh
07:29<dada__>it's a company called WASD Keyboards
07:29<dada__>you send them a PDF (or you use their crappy designer) and they laser etch it onto the keys
07:29<dada__>very high quality
07:29<dada__> very pleased with how it turned out
07:30<dada__>plus, they have high quality cherry mx keyswitches.
07:30<@peter1138>i hate straight keyboards now
07:30<dada__>german quality!
07:30<@peter1138>which colour cherry?
07:30<dada__>I picked cherry mx blue in case anyone is interested. tactile feedback
07:31<Markk>My keyboards are bi.
07:32<dada__>I wish my keyboard was bi. maybe I could start a relationship with it.
08:19<nickshanks>okay, irc catchup time: Flygon: the names of the american founding fathers were never recorded because they had no writing system that we have discovered: ; why do people on IRC channels insist on things like English only? as an almost monoglot englishman I HATE it when people say that. MNIM: speaking of fantastic covers, how about these:
08:20<Flygon>I meant the American founding fathers
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08:23<nickshanks>no, I presume you mean Those Traitorous Bastards from the 13 colonies
08:25<nickshanks>is there a Scenario where you have to build rail "roads" over the tops of teepees and infect children with smallpox, and kill off all the bison?
08:25<nickshanks>that would be cool...
08:26<Flygon>Is there a scenario where you snatch Aboriginal children then breed them with White people in an attempt to get rid of the Aboriginals?
08:26<Flygon>The British came, they saw, they colonized
08:26<nickshanks>those people were evil
08:26<nickshanks>but they weren't traitors
08:27<Flygon>Point is
08:27<Flygon>In the grand scheme of thing
08:27<nickshanks>hang on, you're in australia
08:27<Flygon>Everyone's a bitch
08:27<nickshanks>can I use you as my proxy?
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08:29<nickshanks>my goal is to rid australia and new zealand of white people by prohibiting additional immigration, and handing back land to aboriginals
08:30<nickshanks>i have emailed many leading political figures in both countries but am making little progress
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08:36<Flygon>nickshanks: I doubt it'd work
08:36<Flygon>Yo, Simonn
08:37*Flygon loa- woah!
08:37<Flygon>"I am thoroughly impressed" is an understatement
08:40<nickshanks>that map is insane
08:40<Flygon>Nice understatement :p
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08:41<Simonn>pff I screwed up a lot that I'm trying to fix now
08:41<Simonn>it is my first map and now I understand better how to make junctions and stuff
08:41<Simonn>traffic gets stuck quite often sometimes
08:41<nickshanks>where do screenshots get saved?
08:41<Simonn>Documents, openttd
08:41<Simonn>in that map
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08:43<nickshanks>Windows has a ~/Saved Games/ directory. Wy doesn't OpenTTD use it?
08:44<nickshanks> <- my biggest game so far
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08:44<Simonn>oh but I play in the future
08:45<Simonn>it's easier, and I made my towns bigger
08:45<@peter1138>i have a ~/Saved Games/ directory
08:45<nickshanks>why would it be easier?
08:45<@peter1138>and there's absolutely nothing in it
08:45<@peter1138>so it's not just openttd that doesn't use it
08:45<nickshanks>peter: well there ought to be
08:46<Flygon>Your first map?
08:46<nickshanks>Flygon: my only map
08:46<Flygon>'ve never done another OTTD game?
08:46<nickshanks>and this one i had to start again
08:47<Flygon>Oh, wait
08:47<nickshanks>because Hatton town council won't let me build a bus stop in their town
08:47<Flygon>II misread who said it was their only map
08:47<Flygon>I thought it was Simonn! xD
08:47<Flygon>TODO: Read
08:47<MNIM>nickshanks: neato, those covers.
08:47<Simonn>it is my only map
08:47<Flygon>Now I am even more confused
08:47<Simonn>I have been playing on the map I showed for like I dnno 2 weeks
08:47<nickshanks>both of us have only played once
08:48<nickshanks>well i only downloaded it a few days ago and I am at work
08:48<nickshanks>so it is paused most of the time :)
08:49*MNIM is actually working on a massive and varied alpine map
08:49<nickshanks>speaking of which, can we change the icon to Notepad or something? ;)
08:50<Flygon>Why not control OpenTTD remotely from your work computer, to your home computer?
08:50<Flygon>Or, even better
08:50<Flygon>Run your computer as a multiplayer server
08:50<Flygon>Then play it from work, by connecting to your home computer, in spare time...
08:50<Flygon>Presuming MP could be modified to allow pausing
08:51<Simonn>I make 451 million profit a month
08:51<Simonn>I mean year
08:52<@Yexo>MP already allows pausing
08:52<Flygon>Ah, goodie
08:52<Flygon>Sorry, haven't played very much MP
08:52<@Yexo>it doesn't allow fast-forward
08:53<@Yexo>but that's a different issue and unlikely to change
08:53<nickshanks>yexo: if all players agree to FF for a specific period, it might be workable
08:54<@Yexo>fast-forward is "as fast as you computer can compute everything". That directly comflicts with running on different computers
08:54<nickshanks>is it not a client-server game?
08:54<@Yexo>all clients and also the server compute everything
08:55<nickshanks>I would have assumed the server could just update the clients every now and then
08:55<@Yexo>there are way too much changes to the state to send only those changes over the network, so instead only "commands" are send and all calculations are duplicated
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08:56<nickshanks>"oh BTW, a meteor destroyed your town"
08:57<@peter1138>anyone ever done a "distance-length" patch? :p
09:05<nickshanks>question: there are four equi-distant stations A, B C and D. There is a passenger at B who wants to get to C. A and D are train/bus stations and B and C are bus stops ferrying people to A and D respectivly. do I get paid for the total distance the passenger travels or only the distance between B and C?
09:06<@planetmaker>you get money for the distance as the bird flys between the starting and the ending stations
09:06<@planetmaker>*birds fly
09:06<nickshanks>bird flies even :)
09:08<__ln__>is there a newgrf with birds, or flies
09:08<@planetmaker>there's surely one with flies
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09:13<krinn>hi, sometimes creating a sign fail, redoing the same command and parameters again works sometimes and fail some other times. Error report is always "ERR_NONE". What are possible conditions to met sign creation failure ?
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09:19<NGC3982>"The fishing grounds don't produce fish from passengers, if that's what you're thinking."
09:20<NGC3982>Does the FIRS (0.7.5) Fishing Grounds production increase when goods is transported?
09:20<NGC3982>(Like the other industries)
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09:53<BadBrett>When I reverse the direction of Loco+Tender, the Tender gets the first position... I made a dirty workaround by using the "direction" variable, but surely there must be a way to reverse the entire chain and not just the parts...?
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10:19<@planetmaker>BadBrett, articulated vehicles reverse normally like other vehicles. Unless you do funky positioning magic which does the wrong thing [TM]
10:19<@planetmaker>don't make use of any variable to control display of the vehicles and it will work.
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10:47<BadBrett>thanks for the answer... strange, i didn't even use any switches.
10:47<BadBrett>perhaps i need to set more props on the articulated parts or something like that
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10:52<Rubidium>krinn: might you be in a test scope?
10:54<Rubidium>krinn: there are three reasons to reject a sign:
10:54<Rubidium>1) you have so many signs the pool is full (probably 64k)
10:54<Rubidium>2) you have an empty text for the sign
10:54<Rubidium>3) the text for the sign, in UTF-8 characters, is too long
10:55<Rubidium>all give an error
10:56<Rubidium>oh, there's also the tile being invalid
10:56<krinn>yep but all 3 are not present
10:56<Rubidium>nevertheless, I reckon you're in a test scope
10:57<Rubidium>it's the most logical reason
10:57<krinn>you mean in aitestmode ?
10:58<krinn>the function sometimes fail, and redoing it with 0 context change make it success
10:59<Rubidium>then please create the smallest possible test case and file a bug report with that test case
10:59<krinn>it's too hard for test case, as it's not predictible
11:00<Rubidium>well, if it's a bug in OpenTTD, then you should be able to trigger it when you just loop creating signs
11:00<krinn>i have a log showing it: 1st time fail, redo then with 2nd time + grab error message
11:01<krinn>dbg: [script] [12] [I] Ready to send command ? false
11:01<krinn>dbg: [script] [7] [E] SCP: ERROR building sign 34 len=14 data=?q"{q'!\q"qing
11:01<krinn>dbg: [script] [12] [I] SCP: Status update: signPoolID=12432 SignID=144 Command=0 Sender=12 Receiver=16 State=5 Index=0
11:01<krinn>dbg: [script] [7] [E] SCP: ERROR 2nd try building sign 34 len=14 data=?q"{q'!\q"qing error=ERR_NONE
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11:05<krinn>you may note that the BuildSign function should return a signID if working and an error on failure
11:06<krinn>i get the error while checking the sign with <if (!AISign.IsValidSign(id))>
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12:18<krinn> is offline or it's just me ?
12:18<@planetmaker>it's currently down for maintenance
12:18<krinn>ah ok
12:18<@planetmaker>sorry for the inconvenience :-(
12:18<krinn>only the web or ssh too ?
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12:19<@planetmaker>whole VM
12:19<@planetmaker>maintenance on the root server
12:19<Ammler>up again
12:19<@planetmaker>not for me...
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12:23<DanMacK>How long is it expected to be down?
12:23<@planetmaker>a matter of a few more minutes. Hopefully
12:24<Ammler>DanMacK: was it ever down? :-P
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12:38<BadBrett>it doesn't work. i'm clueless. it would be much appreciated if someone could take look at it:
12:40<BadBrett>Here's a picture of the issue:
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>have you compared with what i did in CETS?
12:42<BadBrett>no... i couldn't seem to find the nml for CETS
12:42<BadBrett>and the server is down right now, right?
12:43<@planetmaker>not right
12:43<@planetmaker>anymore :-)
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>"the nml" for CETS is a little tricky
12:44<BadBrett>yeah. but i'm not even doing any fancy stuff right now, i'm just using two spritsets
12:44<BadBrett>no switches or anything
12:45<BadBrett>but for some reason the two parts don't switch places when i reverse the train
12:45<BadBrett>only the sprites are fliped, not the chain
12:45<@planetmaker>nmlc ERROR: Image file "gfx\8bpp\Trains\Train_1\z2\T1A1P1F1_z2.png": File doesn't exist
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>you probably messed up with the 8 sprites for the direction
12:45<@planetmaker>oh... you use backslash...
12:45<@planetmaker>use slash
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>the sprites for the opposite direction probably need to be switched around for the two vehicles
12:47<BadBrett>yeah i thought of that, but that basically means that the chain actually isn't flipped
12:48<Ammler>nuts has also very nice 1tile engines
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>BadBrett: this is a "very early" stage of what i used in CETS
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12:50<Eddi|zuHause>some parts are obsolete, because new variables have been introduced and behaviour has been fixed
12:51<BadBrett>thanks! i'll read through it
12:52<BadBrett>alright, i switched the first halves of the spritesets and now it works... but i'm still a bit confused, because this pretty much means that the vehicle can't be flipped, only the graphics
12:53<@planetmaker>hm, interesting
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>BadBrett: the first vehicle is always the first
12:55<@planetmaker>BadBrett, you surely messed up just the order of the real sprites. The bad looking thing has nothing to do with the train reversing. It also looks broken when it just drives the other direction
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>BadBrett: the final NML of CETS can be viewed here:
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>(very large file)
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>it's a mostly autogenerated file
12:58<BadBrett>yeah i understand that :)
12:58<BadBrett>but did i really mess up the order of the sprites? i realise that the error can be avoided by swapping the first halves of the spritesets...
12:59<@planetmaker>BadBrett, graphics-wise imho it's not an excellent idea to make a solid vehicle bend in the middle, though
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>if you have a build environment, you could check out the intermediate .gnml files
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>which may be more easily understood
12:59<BadBrett>but if the chain is flipped, the front sprites should always be in the front (which isn't the case here)
13:00<BadBrett>anyway, it doesn't really matter, i'll just modify some lines of code :)
13:02<@planetmaker>BadBrett, consider the boilder one vehicle and the cabin or coal stuff the other.
13:02<@planetmaker>keep sprites for one for one vehicle and sprites for the other to the other
13:04<BadBrett>Planetmaker: It's only a prototype... I'm going to add enough turning angles so that it will be seamless
13:04<BadBrett>hopefully it will look nice in the end
13:04<BadBrett>(with a real model)
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>BadBrett: this is the way how i sliced up my sprites:
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>(warning: may cause headaches)
13:06<BadBrett>nice! much appreciated!
13:08<BadBrett>how many parts do you recommend?
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>BadBrett: and this is how it's used in spritesets and switches:
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13:09<Eddi|zuHause>BadBrett: i use 3 parts
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>means i can do turning in 3 steps
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>which appears to me as the least problematic solution
13:10<BadBrett>ok, good to know
13:10<BadBrett>3 graphic parts as well?
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>but this may well be different if you want to optimise it for 4x zoom
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>the "parts" are tricky. in the depot/vehiclelist the front part draws the whole vehicle, in turns, the middle part draws the whole vehicle, and in straights the vehicle is sliced into each part separately
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>the parts that are invisible use the "inv_dummy_group" in above file
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13:14<Eddi|zuHause>the front part has "SLICE == -1", the middle part "SLICE == 0" and the back part "SLICE == 1". in theory that is extendable to more slices, but i never tested that
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13:16<Eddi|zuHause>the above file has a vehicle of length 16 (full tile), the first part is 0 to 4, (i.e. length 4) the second part is 4 to 12 (i.e. length 8) and the third part 12 to 16 (i.e. length 4)
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>there are also files for shorter vehicles, just change the number in the filename
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>note that the files are from an older version of CETS, because they are now also autogenerated
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>BadBrett: how the different vehicle lengths are sliced can be seen here in the "parts =" line:
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>below that is an explanation of the magic offsets
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13:25<BadBrett>thanks a lot, it will be of great help!
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24630 trunk/src/lang/hungarian.txt (2012-10-26 17:45:08 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>hungarian - 11 changes by IPG
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14:18<andythenorth>what, not greetings :|
14:21<@peter1138>feck off yer twat
14:23<andythenorth>you must be english
14:24<@peter1138>surely not
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14:28<Wolf01>hello o/
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14:45<@planetmaker>hello andythenorth :-)
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14:50<andythenorth>lo planetmaker
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15:03<@planetmaker>andythenorth, which file(s) should I look at?
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15:59<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to "english people are always polite"?
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15:59<TyrHeimdal>didn't know that was a thing :P
15:59<andythenorth>english people are only polite when they hate you with every fibre of their being
15:59<andythenorth>lo DanMacK
15:59<andythenorth>come to bask in the glory of your sprites :)
15:59<TyrHeimdal>andythenorth: that's what I heard as well ^^
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that must be why they always appear polite to germans :p
16:01<andythenorth>well perhaps :)
16:01<andythenorth>or maybe that's genuine
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16:29<Supercheese>trying out a new IRC client on my tablet
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16:34<TyrHeimdal>Supercheese: what tablet?
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16:42<drac_boy>know this might be a bit ot but while clearing out my excessive magazines I found a rather unusual photo that I can't find online so .. might try scan it later but .. could anyone believe it if a little tank steam locomotive was given the right of the way over a HST train? :)
16:42<drac_boy>the title for this photo sure is a good one.. 'high speed train meets moderate speed engine' .. heh heh
16:42<andythenorth>"pictures or it didn't happen"
16:43<drac_boy>andythenorth mm yeah .. at least the magazine is not too thin so shouldn't be hard to get a good scan
16:43<drac_boy>its ughh early 2012 issue of Steam Railway
16:44<drac_boy>andythenorth btw the editor wisefully included this paragraph ... "- something that would be inconceivable today!" and I have to agree
16:44<drac_boy>would be too much if a excursion A4 was to hold up an eurostar train nowaday I imagine :p
16:45<drac_boy>anyway .. a hour or so I should be able to get it up I think
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17:00<drac_boy>mm actually andythenorth computer wasn't as balky as it always is so anyway here: and theres also that not-so-5-ton-anymore bridge as well :)
17:00<drac_boy>sorry about the text not being that sharp but I couldn't be bothered with its quick settings
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17:02<drac_boy>I kinda wonder what 'potter' actually means but meh
17:02<@planetmaker>potters make pots. naturally
17:03<drac_boy>oic andythenorth never really heard of this word before but thanks
17:03<drac_boy>so anyway andythenorth what do you really think of that unusual photo?
17:04<andythenorth>there's an example for everything
17:04<andythenorth>have a Cat locomotive hauling a Cat train
17:04<drac_boy>yeah I actually know in japan there used to be some steam-hauled local emu trains ... due to lack of electrifications going far enough
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17:05<drac_boy>not too surprising considering japan used steam for quite a long time and never had that many diesels aside to eg the DD15 etc
17:05<drac_boy>come to think about it I think japan was the only place that really had containers being hauled by steam in everyday service
17:06<andythenorth>one for DanMacK
17:08<drac_boy>andythenorth btw I forgot where I saw it but recently I actually saw a magazine photo of another br class 91 train.....with the rear unit actually coupled ahead of the front unit leading the train with its flat windshields
17:08<drac_boy>thats the second time I've seen that
17:09<drac_boy>wonder how many times they must have done that :P might never know heh heh
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17:14<drac_boy>anyway andythenorth about 'an example for everything' .. theres these in north america too .. who else would have steam hauled commuter bi-level coaches? or an excursion train being the only cause for an old switcher locomotive hauling a loaded budd rdc. etc :)
17:16<drac_boy>anyway think thats enough from me on this topic :p
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17:58<@Terkhen>good night
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20:42<BadBrett>automation sure is fun when working with nml
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21:21<BadBrett>hi supermop
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21:45<supermop>hows it going?
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 27 00:00:08 2012