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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-10-27

---Logopened Sat Oct 27 00:00:08 2012
---Daychanged Sat Oct 27 2012
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02:16<andythenorth>que tal
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02:21<andythenorth>what a long and tedious thread about economy
02:22<Flygon>All you need to know about the economy: If it helped kill Soviet Russia, it can help kill anything
02:29<andythenorth>In Soviet Russia, economy kills you
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02:35<Flygon>Hahaha
02:38-!-roidal [~roland@188-22-216-31.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd
02:38<roidal>hi
02:39<roidal>if i start a multiplayer server is there a way to disable some vehicles?
02:39<roidal>for example all monorails
02:41<Flygon>I know that could be done with NewGRF's, but beyond that... can't really help more x:
02:43<roidal>ok, thank you
02:45<Flygon>What sort of NewGRF's are you using?
02:45<Flygon>I know you could load the 2CC trainset and monorail gets replaced by Metro, but I doubt that's what you wannt
02:46<roidal>until now i don't use newgrf's
02:46<Flygon>Ahh
02:47<andythenorth>opengfx + trains might do it
02:47<andythenorth>with parameters
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02:47<roidal>andythenorth: which parameter?
02:48<roidal>ah
02:48<roidal>you mean
02:48<roidal>compile a ohne opengfx set?
02:48<roidal>own*
02:51<andythenorth>roidal: got 'opengfx+ trains' ?
02:52<andythenorth>there are parameters, you set them in the newgrf window
02:52<andythenorth>looks like it will do what you need
02:52<roidal>ah
02:52<roidal>sry, missunderstood you
03:00<roidal>yes, that looks good
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03:11*andythenorth considers a 'race' MP GS
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03:12<andythenorth>every month, players have to connect two locations
03:13<andythenorth>and 'race' a vehicle from A to B
03:13<andythenorth>GS awards points to whoever gets there fastest
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03:30<NGC3982>Morning.
03:30<NGC3982>God help my head.
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04:22<roidal>and gamesettings are not saved in the save-files?
04:23<roidal>so if i change the settings in a singleplayer game and then load a multiplayer game
04:23<roidal>they are changed in the multiplayergame too?
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04:43<andythenorth>most gamesettings travel with save
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04:49<roidal>ok
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04:56<roidal>is there a way
04:57<roidal>to give the client the rcon-password so i can change settings on the server from the client with the gui?
05:02<Eddi|zuHause>no
05:02<andythenorth>hi Eddi|zuHause
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05:02<Eddi|zuHause>ooooh... snow
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05:05<andythenorth>in FIRS? Or irl? :P
05:07<Eddi|zuHause>where the pizza comes from
05:07<Eddi|zuHause>(actually, i never order pizza)
05:08<Flygon>Snow comes from a Pizzaria?
05:08<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: obviously from the pizza tree -> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lost_in_minefield/5381676500/
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i'm a "visualized vegetarian". i eat everything that i can visualize growing on trees. :p
05:10<andythenorth>where is that picture about 'real life' with the guy looking out of the window?
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>on pics.nase-bohren.de ?
05:11<andythenorth>couldn't find it there
05:11<andythenorth>nvm
05:12<Eddi|zuHause>http://pics.nase-bohren.de/reality.jpg
05:13<andythenorth>ho ho
05:13<andythenorth>thanks
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05:14<Flygon>Reality sucks, the time aspect of it really needs patching
05:14<Flygon>But we lost the source code sometime around the creation of matter
05:15<Flygon>And it's proven difficult to disassemble manually
05:15<andythenorth>so...FIRS economies
05:15<andythenorth>depending on economy, some properties of an industry will vary
05:16<andythenorth>is that an intrinsic property of each industry?
05:16<andythenorth>or is it a configuration item from the environment?
05:16<@planetmaker>good morning
05:16<andythenorth>i.e. one economies.py file, with all industries?
05:16<andythenorth>or each industry knows how to behave in economy x?
05:16<@planetmaker>andythenorth, every month is very quick. but yearly of every 6 months... maybe
05:17<@planetmaker>might be quite fun :-)
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05:19<andythenorth>the way I approach OO, I'd rather have the properties encapsulated in each industry
05:19<andythenorth>then things are less likely to blow up, and it's more portable
05:19<andythenorth>information hiding
05:19<roidal>schade
05:19<andythenorth>but it's more work with code, have to modify each industry instead of one giant table :P
05:20<@planetmaker>not sure that it is more work. Just more distributed
05:20<andythenorth>it avoids 'everything is a giant ball of string' imo
05:20<andythenorth>this might be bikeshedding, not sure
05:21<@planetmaker>andythenorth, what about defining a "mode" for each industry
05:21<andythenorth>yes possibly
05:21<@planetmaker>this mode might involve production rates, acceptance and output
05:21<@planetmaker>maybe dates
05:21<@planetmaker>and the economy.py relates the mode to the economy mode of each industry
05:21<@planetmaker>so the mode for a particular industry could be the same in different economies (where it need not behave different)
05:22<andythenorth>yes default behaviour is what I had in mind too
05:22<andythenorth>if there's no change, no code needed
05:23<@planetmaker>hm, indeed. Mode 0 = default then
05:23<@planetmaker>didn't even mean that :D
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>"Ai Weiwei's 'Gangnam Style' video was censored."
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>",,, in Germany"
05:30<Flygon>...what did they censor?
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>the whole video is blocked on youtube
05:35<Flygon>That's ridiculous
05:35<Flygon>What would possibly be offensive about Gangnam style?
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>for "copyright" reasons
05:35<Flygon>I say if it's aired on nationwide Australian TV during primetime during 'The Project', I say it's suitable for Germany :U
05:36<Rubidium>Flygon: "sexy"?
05:36<Flygon>(as well as a crapload of other TV shows)
05:37<frosch123>every music video is blocked by default in germany
05:38<__ln__>and germans never get annoyed by that?
05:38<frosch123>the artist has to explicitly forbid the german usage rights authority to represent him
05:39<Flygon>That's ludicrous
05:39<frosch123>and the rights authority has not settled a deal with yt within 5 years or so
05:39<@planetmaker>quite
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: at least one GEMA-related petition passed the 50.000 petitors barrier
05:40<andythenorth>ach, so I probably make some kind of 'EconomyConfig' class then
05:41<Rubidium>the Belgian tv program Basta made a nice episode about the Belgian equivalent
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>not that any petition ever changed anything...
05:42<Rubidium>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basta_%28TV_show%29#SABAM
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05:46<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i heard of this show before. but i don't remember if i actually watched it
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05:49<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: well, it's in Flemmish/Dutch
06:02<Fremen>Flemish *
06:08<andythenorth>meh
06:09<andythenorth>economy code: explicit disable of industry, or explicit enable?
06:09*andythenorth bikeshedding
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06:10<@planetmaker>andythenorth, enable
06:10<andythenorth>I just voted disable :P
06:10<@planetmaker>:D
06:10<andythenorth>enable means it's easy for me to screw up and break chains
06:10<andythenorth>by forgetting an industry
06:11<@planetmaker>with disable it's easy to disable an industry which is crucial for a chain ;-)
06:11<andythenorth>that too
06:11<andythenorth>who is our tester? :P
06:11<@planetmaker>but yes, does really matter. bikeshedding fits it very well
06:11<@planetmaker>I want it painted red!
06:12<@planetmaker>then you can place the nuke in it
06:12<andythenorth>orange
06:12<@planetmaker>reddish-orange?
06:12<andythenorth>3 legged camel
06:12<@planetmaker>wtf? dromeda!
06:13<andythenorth>is there a case for varying cargo at industries? I think not
06:13<andythenorth>ottd handles pretty well if a cargo is present or not
06:13<andythenorth>but FIRS production code and info strings don't :P
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06:13<@planetmaker>strings don't. We'll need to adjust them
06:14<@planetmaker>But still, even if the cargo is not available, the industry will accept it
06:14<@planetmaker>that will be confusing
06:14<@planetmaker>or do I err that it won't show, if the cargo isn't defined?
06:14<andythenorth>it wont' show
06:14<andythenorth>that's one of the smartest bits of industry_cmd.cpp :)
06:14<@planetmaker>nice
06:14<andythenorth>lot's of it is bloody awful, but whoever did that gets a prize
06:19<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1834/
06:19<andythenorth>what else might *industries* want to vary in economies?
06:19<andythenorth>cargos will be handled separately
06:19<andythenorth>location code and production code are definitely out of scope imo
06:23<@planetmaker>production code is touched already by production amount. And should do so also for secondaries imho. But that's a 2nd step when this is done as you described
06:24<@planetmaker>and... could graphics vary (if you feel bold and like drawing)?
06:24<@planetmaker>or additional / less layouts available
06:24<@planetmaker>better approach
06:25<andythenorth>yes they could
06:25<andythenorth>layouts could be conditional on an economy
06:25<andythenorth>for example, in 'Holland' economy, all grain millls use windmill only :P
06:25<@planetmaker>that would even give us the option to modify looks however one would see fit
06:25<@planetmaker>exactly
06:26<@planetmaker>or in a mars or future tech version, no wind mills or so
06:26<andythenorth>ha
06:26<@planetmaker>(or only?)
06:26<andythenorth>grain mills on mars :P
06:26<Rubidium>andythenorth: luckily you didn't say "Dutch" economy ;)
06:27<andythenorth>:P
06:28<Rubidium>although... to be fair, even in Holland not all mills were wind mills
06:29<@planetmaker>Holland 17th century: s/cotton farm/tulip farm/
06:29<Rubidium>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tide_mill
06:29<@planetmaker>would be an interesting variation, too ;-)
06:29<@planetmaker>isn't that quite new, Rubidium ?
06:29<andythenorth>there is a plan for watermill
06:29<@planetmaker>hm, no, seemingly
06:29<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2993
06:30<andythenorth>not sure if I can detect river accurately enough
06:30<Rubidium>planetmaker: in stellar time frames it is
06:30<@planetmaker>:D
06:30<andythenorth>if anyone wants to try writing tile location code for it, I'll draw graphics :P
06:30<@planetmaker>I'll write that code
06:30<andythenorth>ok :)
06:30<Rubidium>although... 5 decades might be relatively young for mills
06:31<andythenorth>planetmaker: might be worth looking how Yexo did the petrol station
06:31<andythenorth>only locates next to roads
06:31<@planetmaker>yes... I wrote that code ;-)
06:31<andythenorth>and chooses an appropriate layout to line up with road
06:31<andythenorth>oh you did :)
06:31<andythenorth>fine then
06:31<andythenorth>if we can't detect rivers, I suggest extend spec
06:32<@planetmaker>I guess both of us did at one time, him and me
06:32<andythenorth>he wrote the nfo equivalent
06:32<@planetmaker>I wrote most of nml location code, I think, at least the last template version
06:33<@planetmaker>spent weeks on it
06:33<Rubidium>hand mill: 3000 BC, water mill: 1200 BC, wind mill: 100 AD, ship mill: 600 AD, tide mill: 1500 AD
06:33<andythenorth>nuclear mill?
06:33<Rubidium>~ 1950
06:33<andythenorth>planetmaker: there were so many cases in the nfo to handle for locations :)
06:34<andythenorth>I had ~2 years to think up all those ;)
06:34<@planetmaker>they're all still there
06:34<andythenorth>I know
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06:34<@planetmaker>and it's good to have some decision paths there
06:34<andythenorth>I read them all when I improved town industry locations
06:34<@planetmaker>makes for a bit variety
06:34<andythenorth>they're all well documented too
06:35<@planetmaker>yes, I spent lots of time on that, too ;-)
06:35<@planetmaker>But I know from my own experience that I forget what I did... so just for myself :-P
06:44<@planetmaker>andythenorth, the tile location code is still the cpp templates, right?
06:46<andythenorth>yup
06:46<@planetmaker>he, we already have a water class check on a tile basis. We would just need to employ it
06:46<andythenorth>np plans to change the tile location code any time soon, no benefit
06:46<@planetmaker>TILE_CHECK_WATERCLASS(name, class, yes, no)
06:47<andythenorth>does the class find rivers?
06:47<andythenorth>or would it also find canals?
06:47<andythenorth>and coasts?
06:47<@planetmaker>coast is a separate check
06:48<@planetmaker>RIVER is a separate water class, though
06:48<@planetmaker>different from CANAL and SEA and NONE
06:49<@planetmaker>thus one would need make sure that tile is flat and class RIVER
06:49<@planetmaker>and possibly the adjacent tile, too (if it's a two-tile layout)
06:49<@planetmaker>thus I can only write the check when I know the layout :-)
06:50<@planetmaker>my idea for the layout is two-tile with building on land and the wheel on the water. so-to-speak
06:50<andythenorth>will that block ships?
06:50<andythenorth>I was thinking of a mill pond and mill channel to one side
06:50<@planetmaker>yes. it will become an industry tile
06:50<andythenorth>hmm
06:50<andythenorth>put it on rapids :P
06:51<@planetmaker>that's another option
06:51<@planetmaker>but harder, much harder, to place
06:51<@planetmaker>the other option I'd place 2nd is to place it entirely next to the river
06:51<@planetmaker>with a river extension where the mill wheel turns
06:51<@planetmaker>then the river will remain navigable
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06:54<@planetmaker>river extension only graphically, of course
06:54<andythenorth>sprites overlapping the tile boundary?
06:54<andythenorth>might work o_O
06:54<@planetmaker>no
06:54<@planetmaker>well. might work
06:55<@planetmaker>but I'd rather then put the wheel at the tile boundary
06:55<@planetmaker>hm... though yes, we have a problem with showing water... we might need to do that then... :S
06:55<@planetmaker>So... rather build on the river. Better looks
06:55<andythenorth>put the tile on the N side :P
06:55<andythenorth>wheel / tile /s
06:56<andythenorth>hidden
06:56<@planetmaker>he. In my mind I *always* placed it on the Western sides, either NW or SW.
06:57<@planetmaker>I would like a turning wheel :-)
06:58*andythenorth tries to figure out how to link up a mill stream with main river graphics
06:58<andythenorth>would need to cross the river bank graphics
06:58<@planetmaker>yes
06:59<andythenorth>I don't want to do one of those weird graphical cheats which go out of the tile
06:59<@planetmaker>Then probably our option is only on the river
06:59<andythenorth>block it?
06:59<@planetmaker>yes
06:59<andythenorth>ach try it
07:00<@planetmaker>if we don't want that, it need be on rapids. But... meh
07:00<@planetmaker>try on? or try graphical cheat? :D
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07:09<andythenorth>try cheat
07:09<andythenorth>rapids are too limiting
07:10<@planetmaker>you think it's bad to block the river?
07:10<andythenorth>it is for ships :)
07:11<andythenorth>but there are canals, right? :P
07:11<@planetmaker>we can also argue that a proper water mill needs a river block to generate some water drop. and ^^
07:11<andythenorth>build a lock :P
07:11<@planetmaker>well. you don't need that on flat terrain ;-)
07:11<andythenorth>just try it blocking the river
07:11<andythenorth>see what happens :)
07:12<andythenorth>actually, anything like drawing a mill stream is bad
07:12<andythenorth>because it might not match river graphics anyway
07:12<@planetmaker>ok. It's also the easiest thing to do
07:12<andythenorth>so definitely just build on river
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07:17<Wolf01>hi o/
07:18<@planetmaker>hello Wolf01
07:22<Eddi|zuHause><Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: well, it's in Flemmish/Dutch <-- i'm fairly sure there were english subtitles available :p
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08:39<roidal>how can i save the company-password?
08:39<roidal>when i restart the server the passwords are disabled?
08:40<Ammler>you can't
08:40<Ammler>not diabled, removed
08:40<roidal>ok
08:40<roidal>thx
08:41<Ammler>simply because you don't want to save the passwords in the game.sav
08:41<Ammler>and that is about all infos you keep on restart
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08:44<@planetmaker>it's not even removed. It simply is and was never saved
08:44<@planetmaker>and saving it has problems with e.g. giving away savegames or so
08:45<@planetmaker>a viable solution, roidal, is to use admin scripts to automatically set passwords. And of course good administration to move people on request into their companies after a reload
08:46<roidal>ok
08:48<roidal>and what exactly is saved in the save-files?
08:48<roidal>some settings too?
08:48<roidal>or only the map and companies?
08:48<@planetmaker>most settings are saved
08:49<@planetmaker>except network settings and gui-only ones
08:49<@planetmaker>look at your adv. settings. All but the ui section is saved
08:49<roidal>so, if i create a new game and change difficulty or economic settings in the openttd.conf
08:49<roidal>it doesnt affect already existing games?
08:49<@planetmaker>exactly
08:50<roidal>oh
08:50<roidal>and how can i change it in the running game? i tried it with the console
08:50<@planetmaker>rcon
08:50<@planetmaker>yes, via console you can. In single player of course also via the adv. settings UI
08:50<roidal>i tried to change the construction_cost but it doesen't allow it
08:50<@planetmaker>yes, you can't change everything in MP games
08:51<@planetmaker>some things are fixed. And that's it
08:51<roidal>thats bad...:D
08:51<@planetmaker>it would be bad, if it were allowed. Clients would be kicked due to diverging game states
08:51<roidal>and if a load the map as a singleplayer game, change it, and then load as multiplayer again?
08:51<@planetmaker>that might work
08:51<@planetmaker>though... construction costs... not sure
08:52<@planetmaker>try
08:52<roidal>ok
08:52<roidal>thank you!
08:56<NGC3982>Good afternoon.
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09:42<andythenorth>hmm
09:42<andythenorth>how does the ternary operator work in nml?
09:42<andythenorth>I want to return '3079 + (animation_frame / 4)' if animation_frame < 19
09:42<@planetmaker>x = y == 2 ? 5 : 3
09:43<@planetmaker>x = condition ? true : false
09:43<andythenorth>ah
09:46*andythenorth wonders if there's a number for an empty sprite in base set?
09:46<andythenorth>93-97 look empty
09:47<frosch123>those are character sprites
09:47<frosch123>you will trigger an error when using them in a spritelayout
09:47<roidal>whats the "default company password" button?
09:47<andythenorth>k
09:47<andythenorth>I currently have smoke that turns into a floating bus :)
09:48<FLHerne>Any good reason? :P
09:48<frosch123>roidal: it makes the entered password to be stored in your local openttd.cfg, and automatically applied whenever you start a new company on any server
09:48<frosch123>(storage is unencrypted)
09:48<roidal>ah
09:48<roidal>thanks
09:49<andythenorth>frosch123: know of any other sprites that are blank? :P
09:49<frosch123>doesn't it have a tooltip hint btw?
09:49<frosch123>andythenorth: add one?
09:49<andythenorth>needs to have a number from the base set
09:49<frosch123>or even use the adv spritelayout stuff to make a sprite invisble
09:49<@planetmaker>uhm, I don't think there is one, andythenorth
09:49<andythenorth>can't do that (right now)
09:50<andythenorth>owing to I have to go to the toyshop o_O
09:50<andythenorth>I'll add a special template for smoke sprites
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10:00<roidal>and there is again a question
10:01<roidal>how can i remove a server from the list?
10:02<@planetmaker>shut down
10:03<roidal>no :D i mean
10:03<roidal>i added a server in the client...which i don't need anymore
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10:05<roidal>hm..no other way?
10:05<roidal>ok
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10:10<@planetmaker>select another server. the memory only holds one...
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10:54<TrueBrain>building a new balancer (finally .. about freaking time, but okay):
10:54<TrueBrain>http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/balancer.py.txt <- if anyone has some sane remarks on the code, lemme know ;)
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11:15<andythenorth>hmm
11:15<andythenorth>smoke
11:16<andythenorth>all these lovely steam ships
11:17<andythenorth>and no way to show smoke :o
11:20<Flygon>Isn't there a steam-smoke flag?
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11:20<Flygon>I've seen it used in eGTRS 2.0
11:20<Flygon>Also
11:21<Flygon>I forgot the acronym
11:22<andythenorth>yes there is a flag
11:22<andythenorth>it was very kindly patched
11:22<Rubidium>capture it!
11:22<frosch123>Flygon: egrvts
11:22<frosch123>extended generic roadvehicle and tram set
11:22<frosch123>easy, isn't it? :p
11:23<andythenorth>there is even an option to offset smoke along the y axis :)
11:23<andythenorth>but there is no option to offset z
11:23<andythenorth>or x
11:23<frosch123>"y axis" :p
11:23<frosch123>you mean "along the vehicle"
11:23<Rubidium>that's X ;)
11:24<andythenorth>ha
11:24<andythenorth>I read the code as y
11:24<andythenorth>but nvm :)
11:24<andythenorth>it's a long time since I read it :P
11:25<andythenorth>when I last tried to patch this
11:25<Rubidium>oh, in code... then I have no clue ;)
11:25<Rubidium>only know the axis in measurement data ;)
11:25<andythenorth>anyway this one is a social problem, not a code problem
11:26<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24631 /trunk/src (3 files in 3 dirs) (2012-10-27 15:25:57 UTC)
11:26<@DorpsGek>-Feature: Add buttons to expand/collapse all to advanced settings GUI.
11:26<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24632 /trunk/src (5 files in 3 dirs) (2012-10-27 15:26:17 UTC)
11:26<@DorpsGek>-Feature: Add text filtering to advanced settings.
11:26<andythenorth>o_O
11:26<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24633 trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp (2012-10-27 15:26:34 UTC)
11:26<@DorpsGek>-Add: Autoexpand the adv. settings tree, if a filter term is entered immediately after opening the window without any manual expanding/collapsing.
11:27<Rubidium>tss... lazy translators ;)
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11:28<andythenorth>what a nice steam ship
11:28<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3334/paddle_steamer_large.png
11:31<Zuu>I though to do some minor tweaks to "Neighbours are important". One of those is to display a list of negihbour towns in the GUI. As town names sometimes can be quite long, I though it might be a good idea to have each town name on a line of its own. But then you need some sort of bullet list or indention. And that is my question, is there something better than dash-bullets?
11:31<Zuu>http://devs.openttd.org/~zuu/Neighbour-list.png
11:33<Rubidium>maybe the > arrow from the order list?
11:36<Rubidium>does the * look okay?
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11:39<Zuu>The * looks wierd to me.
11:39<Zuu>> can work
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11:41<FLHerne>andythenorth: Nice boat :-)
11:42<Zuu>In OpenGFX its a double arrow >> in the orders list. I guess its actually a sprite rather than something from the font, so it might be hard to get int into a GSText unless there is a {}-code for it that is not documented on the wiki.
11:42<andythenorth>FLHerne: danmack drew it
11:43<@planetmaker>hm, which, Zuu ?
11:43<Zuu>planetmaker: which do you mean?
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11:44<@planetmaker>sprite / thing you're "worried" about
11:44<@planetmaker>there's... a bullet character in the extra grf afaik
11:45<@planetmaker>but better... depends on how you want to display it
11:45<Zuu>I was wondering if there is a bullet that can be added to english.txt that might be better visually than the dashes that I use in the screenshot.
11:46<@planetmaker>let me look...
11:46<Zuu><Zuu> http://devs.openttd.org/~zuu/Neighbour-list.png <-- screenshot
11:47<Zuu>I could try to indent the towns the same amount as the cargo requirements, but that indention seem to be hardcoded as pixles in the code rather than as spaces in a string. So I doubt I can get the same indention as that list above for any font setting.
11:47<@planetmaker>http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/b7/index.htm maybe?
11:48<@planetmaker>it's available in the sprite fonts
11:50<Zuu>With dot: http://devs.openttd.org/~zuu/Neighbour-list2.png
11:51<Zuu>I guess I should add a space before the dot to get it to look a bit better.
11:51<Zuu>Otherwise quite nice.
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11:52<@planetmaker>actually, it suffices to have no letter except a bit indentation
11:52<@planetmaker>imho
11:53<Zuu>Yea, that is probably going to be the best.
11:54<Zuu>Only expection is if a town name is soo long that it warps. But then there will be no indention for the warped part, so that should work too.
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>if you had a GRF, i'd suggest just adding a sprite for the desired UTF-8 character...
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>the word is "wrap", btw.
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>has nothing to do with startrek :)
11:55<Zuu>Indention vs dots: http://devs.openttd.org/~zuu/Neighbour-list3.png
11:56<@planetmaker>hm. Dots might look better after all :-)
11:56<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, but... then that char should be part of the base sets
11:56<frosch123>is the dot present in openttd.grf ogfx_extra.grf?
11:57<frosch123>else you will have trouble with the sprite font
11:57<@planetmaker>frosch123, yes
11:57<@planetmaker>I only suggested those I found there
11:57*Zuu uses sprite font
11:57<@planetmaker>documentation there luckily is quite good :-)
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11:58<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i was speaking in conditional for a reason
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>(even though the grammar was probably wrong)
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: i think the dots look fine
11:59<@planetmaker>I think it was right. But I still believe that NewGRFs are a bad place to introduce new characters...
12:10<Zuu>Is it the dessert/snow status of the town tile that decide if the town is a dessert/snow town?
12:11<Zuu>town tile = tile under town sign.
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12:12<@planetmaker>yes
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12:18<Zuu>Non-desert towns accept food right? Its just the water requirement that need to be removed (and instead increase the other requirements of those towns)
12:19<@planetmaker>food acceptance is a house property usually
12:19<@planetmaker>so every town will accept it, given proper houses + size
12:22<Zuu>Good, then I'll add the 'water' requirement to food.
12:25<Zuu>And in artic, food is accepted by towns both below and above snow line?
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, except when you load alpine.grf or something
12:26<Zuu>So with default industries etc. the only real exception is that non-desert towns will not be able to accept water.
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12:29<Eddi|zuHause>can't you just check acceptance nearby?
12:30<@planetmaker>I think that's right, Zuu. As water towers probably only are buildable in the desert
12:30<@planetmaker>but worth checking :-)
12:31<Zuu>The wiki article about climates didn't contain much cover on these restrictions from this perspective.
12:31<DanMacK>What are you guys up to now? Lol
12:32<@planetmaker>sounds like game scripts
12:32*Zuu is looking over "Neighbours are important"
12:33<Zuu>No fundamental news. Just a few improvements here and there within the limitations of what is possible within the 1.2.x API.
12:33<DanMacK>Coo
12:38<supermop>is there a patch of either c-dist or yacd with a new enough nightly for GS?
12:38<FLHerne>cdist is, easily
12:38<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: Might be an idea. I beleive the current limits of when goals kick in are somewhat safe, but checking actual cargo acceptance would solve things like alpine.grf as well as protecting against a town starting to require food before it is large enough to accept it.
12:39<FLHerne>I don't think YACD's been updated for ages, but CDist's <100 revisions behind trunk
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: large towns tend to not accept food in the center, as a building can only accept either food or goods, not both
12:41<Zuu>It may be that a such mechanism would cause trouble in more cases than it solves. Especially as I can't remember anyone complaining on this issue.
12:43<Zuu>So I think I'll skip that for now.
12:45<supermop>why did noone ever make a generic train set
12:45<supermop>something like eGTS
12:49<@peter1138>it's called ukrs ;)
12:50<supermop>thats what i've been using in its place
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12:51<supermop>something like the original trains but with more MUs would be nice
12:53<supermop>just a few generations of trains a couple of choices, cheap vs powerful or something
12:54<@planetmaker>like opengfx+ trains?
12:54<supermop>but more trains
12:54<supermop>say instead of just the manley morel, there is a similar emu
12:55<supermop>and so forth with the dash
12:56<supermop>one or two older electrics and new diesels
12:56<supermop>but still a generally low number of total trains
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13:11<@planetmaker>supermop, can you prepare a list of engines, their stats, including intro and decomissioning dates which would suit your needs?
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13:19<supermop>yes i suppose i could
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24634 /trunk/src/lang (6 files in 2 dirs) (2012-10-27 17:45:31 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>afrikaans - 69 changes by Oomjcv
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 35 changes by arnau
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
13:45<@DorpsGek>german - 8 changes by planetmaker
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 1 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>tamil - 25 changes by Rubidium, aswn
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13:48<supermop>how do i filter servers my version?
13:49<supermop>by
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13:49<Guest3360>what exactly does "inflation" do? does all prises raisis (also the money you get for delivering)
13:49<Guest3360>or only the prices of old engines?
13:50<@planetmaker>all prices rise. But expenses faster than income
13:50<Guest3360>thanks
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14:03<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: the version you use is automatically on top
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14:35<__ln__>is there netflix in germanland?
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>i've never seen one
14:44<__ln__>netflix started here last week, and it's seems to be very affordable and technically great service.
14:47<Zuu>I think I saw on the news that they have started in England/UK and now scandinavia is their second market in europe.
14:50<Zuu>IIRC it was said that they also plan to start up in Spain. Eventually they will probably get to Germany too.
14:51<NGC3982>__ln__: It works really well around here, too
14:51<NGC3982>I really like how services like this work
14:51<NGC3982>Spotify + Netflix, for instance
14:52<NGC3982>Monthly payments, "unlimited usage" and a fair amount of content.
14:53<__ln__>exactly
14:54*NGC3982 company used to be the CiC unit for Spotify
14:55<NGC3982>The lack of customer credit and debt collection is quite effective.
14:55<Zuu>Althrough it is kind of irritating when some CD that you have been listening on for a year suddenly vannish from Spotify and is impossible to buy on even Amazon.
14:55<NGC3982>Zuu: That is true.
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14:56<NGC3982>Though, comparing what you pay for the premium service (with that risk) and a physical CD collection - It's quite unmatchable.
14:56<NGC3982>At least now when they have added so much music
14:58<Zuu>Though, for 1200 SEK (premium) or 600 SEK (new add-free plan), you can buy a few CDs a year.
14:59<Zuu>Its indeed good, but especially when there was only the 1200 SEK plan, you could compare it to buying some 6-8 CDs a year.
15:00<__ln__>i suppose that's the business idea behind Spotify and Netflix.. the vast majority of people spend more on the subscription than they would spend on CDs or rental movies per year.
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15:04*__ln__ spends 0€ per year on rental movies
15:05<andythenorth>13 industries left to migrate :P
15:05*Zuu has used some on-demand retal services, but never reached a long term cost that reach the fee for netflix.
15:06<@Terkhen>hello
15:06<Zuu>In order for netflex to "pay", I need to watch more than 2 movies in average per month.
15:07<Zuu>Hello Terkhen
15:08<andythenorth>lo Terkhen
15:12<NGC3982>Zuu: According to Last.fm, i use roughly 100 hours of Spotify a month.
15:12<NGC3982>That's worth every penny, for me at least :)
15:13<NGC3982>__ln__: Of course, as you said with rental movies.
15:13<NGC3982>It's a great way to reduce piracy and at the same time make people use the material.
15:13<NGC3982>At least as far as i think.
15:14<NGC3982>andythenorth: Great job, sport.
15:15<NGC3982>andythenorth: Will you let us know when the SFIRS 0.0.1 is done?
15:16<__ln__>considering how much e.g. Viasat would cost per month, and how crap it is (both technically and contentwise), 7,99€ for netflix is really cheap.
15:18<Zuu>Indeed. I've ended my TV subscription and for that I can easily pay for the content that I want to see and still reduce the total cost.
15:18<NGC3982>As long as it works.
15:18<NGC3982>Spotify did, luckily.
15:18<NGC3982>And a thing that i love is that you don't lock the fuck up on twelve month subscription crap ass-twat-faces.
15:18*NGC3982 calms down.
15:19<NGC3982>Im sorry for that.
15:22<andythenorth>anyone added smoke yet?
15:24<__ln__>viasat's movie thing costs 19,95€/month, and afaik it contains 1 HD channel and four or five bad-bitrate-SD channels.
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15:27<NGC3982>__ln__: Ew.
15:27<oskari89>andythenorth: Do you have cargo chart for SFIRS?
15:28<andythenorth>nope
15:28*NGC3982 can make one.
15:28<andythenorth>what is SFIRS?
15:28<NGC3982>Soylent FIRS.
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15:29<NGC3982>./topic Welcome to #OpenTTD - It's made out of people!"
15:29<andythenorth>there are logs giving my view on further mention of soylent
15:29<andythenorth>bye
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16:40<TrueBrain>any math freak in the house?
16:42<TrueBrain>meh, what a boring channel :(
16:46<@planetmaker>zzzZZZZzzz ;-)
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16:56<Warod>hah
17:02<TrueBrain>ah, Warod
17:02<TrueBrain>I can now selectively mirror files
17:02<TrueBrain>so .. you owe me a mirror for OpenTTD :P
17:03<Warod>ha! ;)
17:03<Warod>not unpossible, yes. :)
17:04<Warod>do you do geoIP based mirror selection?
17:04<TrueBrain>yes
17:04<Warod>so we could essentially provide mostly for .fi users?
17:04<TrueBrain>mirrors offload to othermirrors if they get stressed
17:04<TrueBrain>so during a release that wont really be the case
17:05<Warod>yeah
17:05<TrueBrain>the next closest mirror is HU, so all surrounding countries would also be knocking on your door
17:05<Warod>how much mbps are we talking about on releases?
17:05<TrueBrain>no clue really .. never did the math
17:06<Warod>how many downloads in a day all together?
17:06<TrueBrain>loading our stats page .. lets see ...
17:06<TrueBrain>Last day: 3131, Last Week: 25886
17:06<TrueBrain>Average day: 2964
17:06<TrueBrain>1.2.2 was downloaded 185k times
17:06<Warod>is that normal day or when was the release out?
17:06<TrueBrain>that is today, so "normal"
17:07<Warod>mm
17:07<TrueBrain>the Yogcast caused 30k downloads a day
17:07-!-krinn [~krinn@206.227.101.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd
17:07<Rubidium>there have been four days with more than 10k downloads
17:07<krinn>hi
17:08<TrueBrain>lets say 10M for a binary (over-estimated, but meh)
17:08<TrueBrain>so that would be 300GB that day
17:08<TrueBrain>which was a peak day
17:08<Rubidium>and the only discernable peaks are beta1 (just before Christmas) and .0 (begin Q2)
17:09<TrueBrain>you do make me wonder ... I could in theory implement bandwidth trottled mirrors
17:09<TrueBrain>like: max N GB per day
17:09*planetmaker donates an "h" to tb
17:09<TrueBrain>I could also restrict to like: only from FI
17:09<Warod>TrueBrain: well.. not that much of a traffic then. :)
17:09<Warod>our yesterday was...
17:09<Warod>855 GB
17:09<TrueBrain>then why are you bugging me getting those details
17:09<TrueBrain>pffffffff
17:10*TrueBrain slaps Warod .. making me work .. pffff
17:10<Warod>;D
17:10<@planetmaker>:-P
17:10<Warod>You're ment to be coding! ;)
17:10<TrueBrain>been all day :P
17:10<TrueBrain>so, prep us a mirror :P I only need rsync access ;)
17:11<+glx>and some space
17:11<TrueBrain>ah, yes
17:11<TrueBrain>space
17:11<Warod>how much space?
17:11<TrueBrain>I'm in space!!
17:11*krinn think TrueBrain need an excuse to slaps someone anyway
17:11<@planetmaker>and some bandwidth ;-)
17:11<TrueBrain>100GB, I always yell
17:11<TrueBrain>but you only want a selective mirror, not?
17:11<TrueBrain>so only release and latest nightly?
17:11<Warod>yeah, that would be the most meaningful
17:11<Ammler>osx nightlies only
17:12<TrueBrain>so that is < 1GB
17:12<TrueBrain>500MB atm
17:12<TrueBrain>so say 5GB, and I will be more than happy
17:12<Warod>don't really see why we should keep the old stuff there.. that nobody downloads anyways. :)
17:12<@planetmaker>no bananas?
17:12<TrueBrain>owh, bananas
17:12<TrueBrain>good point
17:12<TrueBrain>adds 240 MiB
17:12<TrueBrain>so yeah
17:12<@planetmaker>zbase will be 250MB. ogfx+trains 150MB
17:12<@planetmaker>etc.
17:12<TrueBrain>Warod: yeah, we will be downgrading all mirrors in what they serve
17:12<@planetmaker>so easily a few GB, TrueBrain
17:12<TrueBrain>old content will just come from our own server, which is fine
17:13<@planetmaker>zbase WILL be popular
17:13<TrueBrain>owh, yeah, forgot about 32bpp ...
17:13<Warod>TrueBrain: Yeah. That kind of mirroring is much easier to come by. :)
17:13<TrueBrain>euh ... I guess I will put the minimal requirement to 10GB then :P
17:13<TrueBrain>Warod: yeah; we have a few people that dont mind hosting the 45k files we serve atm
17:13<Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/stats.pdf more long running 'stats' on downloads
17:13<TrueBrain>but for most people it is unneeded :P
17:13<Warod>TrueBrain: yeah. Not a prob. Even the 100 GB would not be the problem if I did this 'offically'. :P
17:14<TrueBrain>well, it would be lovely if you can cook something up
17:14<Warod>TrueBrain: We do mirror all the public map data of whole country...
17:14<Ammler>does the new mirror script also autoskip temporarly unavailable hosts?
17:14<Warod>TrueBrain: About 4 TB worth of data. :)
17:14<TrueBrain>depends on your word "temporary"
17:14<TrueBrain>it contains all the hosts to which it could rsync last
17:14<TrueBrain>I might add http checks later
17:14<TrueBrain>Warod: lolz ;)
17:14<Ammler>going offline without telling you :-)
17:15<TrueBrain>atm it just replaces the current balancer
17:15<TrueBrain>but is more reactive and more clever
17:15<TrueBrain>it has filters
17:15<TrueBrain>and uses JSON!
17:15<Ammler>like the issue with peters mirror lately
17:17<TrueBrain>it doesnt have the intention to fix that atm
17:17<TrueBrain>if it rsyncs, it assumes http works
17:17*Rubidium finds it quite interesting that the average number of downloads on Monday and Tuesday are the same
17:17<TrueBrain>so downtime can still be 24h
17:19<Warod>you could do a poller which only fetches a header. :P
17:21<Ammler>the issue might be that the balancer then prefers such hosts, because they don't produce traffic
17:23<Warod>but I'll have to get some sleep. :S
17:23<TrueBrain>in time I might add a check, which does a HEAD call to a mirror once every N minutes
17:23<TrueBrain>but .. not today :)
17:23<TrueBrain>sleep well Warod :)
17:24<Warod>I definitely hope I do. ;D
17:24<Warod>Hell of a week. :P
17:24<Warod>and the hotel sucked... days were too damn long. :P
17:24<TrueBrain>hehe
17:25<Ammler>depends how you sum the traffic for the balancer, it could be an issue
17:25<Warod>was only one day at home last week really. :S
17:25<TrueBrain>ugh; hotel life, its a bitch
17:25<TrueBrain>Ammler: I dont understand what you try to say?
17:25<Ammler>if a host is down, it doesn't produce traffic, so the balancer sends all request there
17:26<TrueBrain>how do you think the balancer knows traffic?
17:26<Warod>Ammler: When the host check is implemented it'll be dropped out of the pool in few minutes if it doesn't respond to the requests properly.
17:26<TrueBrain>it is not like we measure how much the client is really using ;)
17:27<TrueBrain>when I redirect a client to a mirror, I add the size of the file to its usage
17:27<Ammler>so you simply count the "clicks"?
17:27<TrueBrain>even if the client aborts, for al lI care, the bandwidth was used
17:27<Warod>but now.. the sleep ->
17:27<Warod>nn
17:27<TrueBrain>sleep well!
17:27<Ammler>ok, then it might be even a kind of solution for the host is down too
17:28<TrueBrain>I mean, there is not really another way to measure 'traffic'
17:28<TrueBrain>unless we instal shit on each mirror
17:28<TrueBrain>which is a no-go for many of them :)
17:29<Ammler>true, and if you could check, if it really worked, you could also disable it :-)
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17:55<@Terkhen>good night
17:55-!-tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-7-234.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
17:55-!-mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
17:55<__ln__>yes it is, finally getting back the lost hour
17:56<TrueBrain>where did you lose it?
17:56<+glx>it will be back in 3 hours
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>"where were you when you lost it, 6 months ago?"
17:58<TrueBrain>7
17:58-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@89.137.75.224] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER]
17:58<TrueBrain>:D
17:58<+glx>indeed 7 :)
17:59<TrueBrain>Winter time only lasts for 5 months
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>right...
18:00<__ln__>the whole idea is absurd
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>that never stopped anybody :p
18:00<TrueBrain>hihi; that is funny because it is true :D
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18:35<TrueBrain>programmed for 10+ hours straight
18:35<TrueBrain>and I wonder why I am tired :P
18:35<TrueBrain>hahahaha
18:35<@planetmaker>:-) I guess you earned your sleep then
18:36<TrueBrain>yeah; guess I delay launching the new balancer till tomorrow :P
18:36<TrueBrain>the new stats page is AWESOME
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18:40<@planetmaker>new stats page?
18:40<@planetmaker>for bananas?
18:40<TrueBrain>http://test.binaries.openttd.org/stats
18:40<TrueBrain>no
18:40<TrueBrain>for the balancer
18:41<TrueBrain>it tells exactly when the next sync will be
18:42<TrueBrain>what mirrors are doing
18:42<TrueBrain>if they are synced, broken, inactive, ...
18:42<TrueBrain>and, and I really like that, the bandwidth in week and day
18:42<TrueBrain>instead of: since startup
18:46<TrueBrain>now you are supposed to say: wow, nice!
18:46<TrueBrain>:P :D
18:48<@planetmaker>yup, I can say that. Looks very nice :-)
18:49<Chris_Booth>cool
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>bah 3 blue people talking always confuses me
18:53<TrueBrain>680 lines of code ...
18:53<TrueBrain>20k chars ..
18:54<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, is turquoise, tb pink and cb red
18:55<TrueBrain>hint: never start inotify with ALL_EVENTS
18:55<TrueBrain>when you start 3 rsyncs, it will complain :D
18:56<TrueBrain>(it also triggers events for OPEN, CLOSE, READ ...)
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19:04<TrueBrain>well, time for some sleep I guess; nn
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19:09<Eddi|zuHause>why do i keep hitting the "keep me logged in" button in the forums, when it throws me outevery few days anyway?
19:13<Wolf01>'night
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19:21<supermop>on opera at home, it never keeps me logged in
19:21<supermop>on opera at work, it's kept me logged in for about 2 years
19:22<supermop>will the town in the title game grow if you leave it on long enough?
19:22<+glx>probably
19:23-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:23<supermop>i've seen a plane crash
19:24-!-KritiK [~Maxim@128-72-40-191.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:25<@planetmaker>it's a normal game, supermop
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>with a handful hacky exceptions
19:25<supermop>timetabling anything without departureboards is so frustrating
19:27<supermop>played a bit of mp with FLHerne_ though and that was fun!
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes. so make the departure bords trunk-worthy!
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>timetables should be about macromanagement, not micromanagement
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19:32<supermop>i just enjoy timing trains so that flat junctions ans station throats are clear
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20:03<krinn>night all
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21:10<Eddi|zuHause>man, Siedler with low population growth is really annoying
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21:45<supermop>hmm?
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23:45<MinchinWeb>Is this where I could request that GSOrder.AppendOrder() be implemented?
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---Logclosed Sun Oct 28 00:00:56 2012