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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-11-01

---Logopened Thu Nov 01 00:00:02 2012
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01:32<Rubidium>heffer: there has been a new release (if you didn't already know it)
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01:45<Knogle>perhaps the channel topic should be updated.
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02:45<__ln__>safety on-board, B777: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBlRbrB_Gnc
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04:08-!-planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | #openttd.dev for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
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05:00<andythenorth>we need more people downloading grfs
05:00<andythenorth>I am trying to get to 1m
05:00<andythenorth>only on 918k :(
05:01<lugo>user hitting 1mth dl gets a free cookie
05:02<lugo>we'd be there in no time, i love cookies
05:02<andythenorth>have a cookie
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05:18<RavingManiac>Made a fourtrack line
05:19<RavingManiac>I am now staring at it
05:19<RavingManiac>it is so beautiful
05:20<Flygon>Is it filled up?
05:23<RavingManiac>There are currently about 32 trains running on it
05:24<RavingManiac>It was originally a two-track line, was starting to get jammed
05:25<NGC3982>Morning.
05:31<Flygon>Nice :3
05:32<Flygon>You should run the department of transport for Victoria
05:32<Flygon>Dandnenong line :D
05:32<Flygon>Morning NGC
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05:47<Flygon>I've been playing this Europe scenario... 4 track lines, shame about the trains :p
05:49<Flygon>As it turns out, 1906 presents some slow trains
05:51<NGC3982>Hehe
05:51<NGC3982>On a server?
05:54<Flygon>Nah
05:54<Flygon>Single Player
05:54<Flygon>2048*2048 would kill any online game
05:54<Flygon>I'd love if it was MP
05:57*NGC3982 is running a 2048^2 game online.
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06:21<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/oIJHC.png
06:21<NGC3982>I can't seem to get the ships to understand where to go
06:21<NGC3982>Their order is up the constructed river
06:21<NGC3982>But they just circle around
06:23<@Yexo>what ship pathfinder do you use?
06:23<@Yexo>if it's not yapf, try switching
06:24<NGC3982>Its YAPF.
06:24<NGC3982>It's*
06:24<NGC3982>Oh wait, no it isn't.
06:24<NGC3982>Though, i'm playing on my own server. I can't seem to change that parameter.
06:25<NGC3982>Can i change it with rcon?
06:27<NGC3982>I fail to find documentation on simply turning it off and on for ships.
06:27<NGC3982>Oh, hold on.
06:28<NGC3982>There we are.
06:28<NGC3982>Yexo: It works. Thank you very much.
06:29<NGC3982>Is there any particular reason to YAPF not being on by default in 1.2.2?
06:29<@Yexo>I think it is the default now
06:29<@Yexo>not sure about 1.2
06:29<@Yexo>but if you have an existing config file it won't be changed
06:29<NGC3982>Oh
06:29<NGC3982>I see
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06:30<@Yexo>if I'm slow with reaction, it's not that I don't want to answer, it's just that I don't pay too much attention
06:31<NGC3982>Hey, it's not like im demanding support here.
06:31<NGC3982>i'm*
06:32<Flygon>A tip, NGC3982
06:32<Flygon>When taking a screenshot
06:32<Flygon>Go to the ? icon
06:32<Flygon>Then select...
06:32<Flygon>Default Zoom Screenshot
06:32<Flygon>Don't select whole map
06:33<Flygon>I crashed a 2048*2048 game doing that :B
06:33<NGC3982>I never use that function, ever.
06:33<NGC3982>I use third party software to take selective screenshot + uploading
06:34<Flygon>Ah, right
06:34<Flygon>I use Dropbo
06:34<Flygon>Dropbox*
06:34<NGC3982>(It's Hyperdesktop: http://gethyperdesktop.com/ )
06:34<NGC3982>It's very, very simple and very, very good.
06:34<NGC3982>click it, mark the area, wait five seconds, url in a bubble.
06:34<NGC3982>Click*
06:36<Flygon>I guess
06:36<Flygon>Buuut, never been a fan of that stuff
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07:17<@Terkhen>hello
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07:18<Flygon>Yo
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08:50<drac_boy>hi
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08:52*Flygon shovels drac_boy onto his Moscow-St. Petersberg express
08:52<Flygon>Dangit! My Blimps are slower than my trains! Shovel! Gogogo!
08:53<Flygon>Anyway
08:53<Flygon>You called?
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08:57<drac_boy>you're really funny :P
08:57<drac_boy>how're you anyway?
08:57<Flygon>I'm not funny
08:57<Flygon>That's the worst joke I ever told! :P
08:57<Flygon>I'm quite alright
08:57<Flygon>You mate?
08:57<drac_boy>doing ok for now
08:59<drac_boy>flygon so hmm yeah about trains as usual...how about this? http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/wm6s.jpg
08:59<Flygon>That is a very fascinating beast
09:00<Flygon>Is it a geared locomotive?
09:00<drac_boy>mm well the funny thing is .. thats the usual "busy" side .. on the other side theres no rods or any pistons tho
09:00-!-keoz [~keikoz@1.4.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd
09:00<drac_boy>yeah its a lima shay .. the common ones
09:00<Flygon>I'm getting better :)
09:01<drac_boy>flygon and btw heres a small NG one http://www.samlindsey.com/images/FamilyHist/Lima 1607 Shay.jpg
09:01<drac_boy>goes to show they were in any size from 2 to 3 trucks and different weights ;)
09:01<drac_boy>and yeah I know the pistons are rather exposed :P
09:02<Flygon>Oh wow
09:02<Flygon>That poor little thing looks so fragile, and exposed...
09:02<drac_boy>flygon yeah the smaller one could be worked with only one man .. and just a small scoop for the coal
09:02<Flygon>I know the local Puffing Billy railway recently aquired a Climax geared locomotive
09:02<Flygon>Are the wheels on that locomotive milled like that for a reason?
09:03<drac_boy>no need for a shovel...just jab a small scoop into the firebox...sit for some time ... then get another small scoop
09:03<Flygon>Does it go on a special track?
09:03<Flygon>Well, certainly doesn't go very fast :p
09:04<drac_boy>flygon...actually that the point.. the length-adjustable rods (the part between pistons and trucks) could take almost anything except a literal dime turn .. and the axles were a bit loose .. so these shays as dsigned could travel over crude ballastless tracks typical to cheap logging
09:04<NGC3982>drac_boy: what's that on the side on the WM6S?
09:04<Flygon>Ahh
09:04<drac_boy>a normal 0-6-0T tank locomotive might have derailed too much due to its rigid 3 axles .. literally
09:04<drac_boy>flygon...one moment I know some good photos for you..
09:04<Flygon>Yeah, I heard of geared locomotives being used to go on, among other things, literal wooden rails
09:05<Flygon>Some I saw... looked like car wheels without tyres
09:05<Flygon>And they just 'drove' in gauge with logs
09:05<Flygon>Can't imagine the traction would be fantastic on a steep incline
09:07<drac_boy>http://www.vannattabros.com/20081st/Shaybenson.jpg look at the track under the first load .. and even the little bridge behind isn't so "flat" neither
09:07<drac_boy>thats the place a shay wouldn't care for .. but a normal rigid locomotive .. well .. as I said .. it may derail :)
09:09<drac_boy>and flygon just for you to know if you didn't .. the odd offset boiler is a normal feature .. because all the pistons are on only one side ... they moved the boiler off to the side to compemsate for that rather than making a wider chassis which would had been of no use
09:09*Flygon nod
09:10<drac_boy>of course the silly thing about a shay is....they sound way faster than they should be :P
09:10<Flygon>...I just realized those logs are being held up by trailers
09:10<drac_boy>40mph? no sir .. thats just the pistons alone .. the axles are actually only doing 10mph! :)
09:10<Flygon>The price for all-wheel drive that isn't rigid :p
09:11<drac_boy>and with the big 3-trucks ... sometimes they'll smoke so much like an express NYC 4-8-4 locomotive ;)
09:11<Flygon>I can't say I've seen such smoke :p
09:11<Flygon>Only smoke I've seen here is huge plumes of black
09:12<drac_boy>flygon...heh well another thing the shay had going for them was .. they'll restart a fresh lumber load up a 14% grade if its not that long
09:12<Flygon>Hard to tell if the R-class is burning oil, or ... ... something that makes a lot of black smoke :U
09:12<Flygon>Wow
09:12<Flygon>14%?
09:12<Flygon>You're... well, crapping me, right?
09:13<drac_boy>well..you have to remember they had very long gears so the pistons are already turning pretty well by the times the axle finally start rolling unlike normal siderods which are hard pressed to start at such a low speed
09:13<drac_boy>and .. 14% is actually just a conservative guessing .. some of the old lines that rammed through hills were .. crazy
09:14<drac_boy>only limit would probably be wet rail traction and/or the slope of watersheets in firebox
09:14<Flygon>Oh wow
09:14<drac_boy>flygon of course by now the stupid thing called OSHA etc would never ever allow most of the things anymore..not even one-man locomotive crew either
09:14<drac_boy>:|
09:15<Flygon>Really?
09:15<Flygon>I'm reasonably sure that V/Line has employed 1-man locomotive crew...
09:15<drac_boy>reminds me of a photo of one of the few crew fixing the cable to one of the pantograph on a cog engine .. with the overhead wire only a feet from his head ... the photographer remarked that north america would had never allowed this kind of practice!!!
09:16<Flygon>And when West Coast Railways existed, they ran 1-man locomotive crew on the R-class until the company finally died (2005)
09:16<drac_boy>(the picture was taken in europe)
09:16<Flygon>Australia has laxer OSHA?
09:16<drac_boy>flygon mm could be :)
09:16*Flygon nod
09:16<Flygon>Though, interestingly, I tend to see Metro EMU's having at least 2 people inside the cab...
09:16<drac_boy>flygon oh and hmm theres one thing I know in general for north america but don't know about it oversea....
09:17<Flygon>And sometimes around 6. But those EMU's are usually for driver training with 6 crewmen...
09:17<drac_boy>used to be if a bad accident happened anyone either from intact section of the train or from nearby town would all come to help out with anything even torching steel roofs out of the way ...
09:17<drac_boy>but nowaday its not even allowed in any way anymore..only the fire crews can do these kind of tasks >_<
09:17<Flygon>Oh lord
09:17<Flygon>Doesn't help America has this "Sue anyone" culture
09:17<drac_boy>yeah .. blame the stupid "safety" board whichever one it is these days
09:18<drac_boy>and THAT too yeah
09:18<Flygon>Suing a good samaritan shouldn't be a default reaction >_>
09:18<drac_boy>yeah I so agree with you :/
09:18<drac_boy>I mean its rather fun to watch these old newsreel of a passenger train accident and you barely even can find one single police officer head anywhere .. its almost all last-minute volunteers
09:18<Warod>i,w 32
09:18<Warod>asdf
09:19<Flygon>I'm not able to recall what the legal situation about that is in Australia, sorry. But chances are, if a group of people that were only trying to help got in trouble over it, you can bet the public'd be a bit upset.
09:19<NGC3982>Oh hi, Irssi user.
09:19<NGC3982>:D
09:19<drac_boy>flygon oh and another thing was .. a crew was not always "the crew" ....
09:19<Flygon>Hm?
09:20<drac_boy>one story I recall of was a typical local steam passenger train .. left station as usual .. but somewhere later down the line..came to a halt .... soon it moved abit a bit slow .. then halted again .. and wasn't long before a conductor went through train asking for a volunteering fireman .... one being found the train finally set off again .. dropping off the suddenly-ill fireman at an unscheduled station stop
09:20<drac_boy>and the train continued on more or less to a slower schedule with this improper fireman all the way
09:21<drac_boy>of course nowaday they wouldn't allow such thing "due to lack of skill" and safety etc
09:21<drac_boy>again...curse you north america :p
09:22<Flygon>Ahhh
09:22<Flygon>Hmm
09:22<Flygon>Here, you can be a fireman
09:22<Flygon>But you need to pay to do it
09:22<Flygon>This's on the Puffing Billy tourist railway
09:22<drac_boy>mm
09:23<Flygon>Dunno what other rail companie's policies are
09:23<Flygon>I know with Steamrail, you might just end up with a lever in front of you that probably says "Oil Throttle" :p
09:23<drac_boy>heh
09:25<Flygon>But, yeah
09:25<Flygon>Basically, it's possible here. But you either need to be an official volunteer, or pay to do it, first... which is deviating from the premise of your story somewhat
09:25<drac_boy>hmm I just remembered one more shay thing..let me see if I can find it...
09:26<Flygon>(gonna snag a quick snack, be a min)
09:28<Flygon>Back
09:31<drac_boy>flygon you want guess what happens when you combine a shay locomotive with absolutely no care for building useless bridges at all?
09:32<Flygon>A locomotive that has a heavier axle load?
09:32<drac_boy>nope: http://www.buffalocreekandgauley.com/OPERATIONS/ERCLOps/12FordingStreamDMOPT.jpg just drop the tracks and leave it be .. beside its only 5-10mph so who is going to care
09:33-!-oskari89 [~oskari89@62-241-226-131.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
09:34<drac_boy>and a bigger crossing of the same river further down the line .. http://www.buffalocreekandgauley.com/OPERATIONS/ERCLOps/3b._Shay_In_River_11.24.61_Steve_Patterson_CORR_Darker.jpg (the man on front is just looking out for any submerged logs that may have washed onto the tracks)
09:34<Flygon>Are you sure that doesn't have a steering wheel?
09:34<drac_boy>talk about saving so much money not bothering with bridges
09:34<drac_boy>heh nope
09:34<Flygon>Because honestly, we're entering territory where it makes sense to just make low-speed trackless trains :p
09:35<drac_boy>flygon..problem is this is only one river .. theres several more miles of normal dry tracks
09:35<drac_boy>so ;)
09:35<Flygon>Touche :p
09:35<drac_boy>flygon of course this particular line sometimes have problem with locomotives "walking" off the track during winter .. and they had to wait for a bulldozer to reset it back right
09:36<Flygon>A situation where steering could have been nice
09:36<drac_boy>one good thing about the low river....free water refilling for the tender ;)
09:36<Flygon>Hahaha! That is sooo cute!
09:36<Flygon>Er
09:36<Flygon>true!
09:36<Flygon>Why did I say cute?
09:36<Flygon>Gah, muscle memory!
09:36<drac_boy>this shows them pretty much doing that http://www.buffalocreekandgauley.com/OPERATIONS/ERCLOps/Shay12WithSiphonDMOPT.jpg ... note the fat hose
09:37<RavingManiac>The plane speed factor really shouldn't apply to helicopters
09:37<Flygon>I presume they're wood fired, correct?
09:38<drac_boy>flygon some were wood (which then means free fuel on logging lines..eh?) .. some coal .. some oil
09:38<Flygon>Ahh
09:38<Flygon>Coal surprises me
09:38<drac_boy>of course with wood you run into the problem of being careful to not use certain logs because they are too green to burn well
09:39<Flygon>Of course
09:39<drac_boy>on some old steam lines (think cuba, africa, etc that sort of locations) .. sometimes you could have bamboo+wood firing .. basically they exhausted any bamboos they had first then if there was not more to be found they started burning the wood instead then
09:39<Flygon>But I still imagine it's cheaper than coal
09:41<drac_boy>flygon btw it wasn't only shay locomotives that had to deal with crazy curves .. I know another one and its a mallet no less ... one moment :p
09:41<Flygon>Oh wow, what
09:46<drac_boy>heres a standard photo of it http://loggingmallets.railfan.net/list/ury50/sumpter250meh.jpg and it shows you how long the chassis is.....
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09:47<drac_boy>and now http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/file.php?1,file=14682 that kind of CURVE is what they had to deal with everyday!
09:47<drac_boy>notice how sharp it is? :)
09:47<Flygon>How in the cruskets does that work?
09:47<drac_boy>http://home.bresnan.net/~bpratt15/images/UintahMallet75.jpg an artist's rendering of the locomotive doing its usual hard decking ;)
09:48<drac_boy>notice how the frontleft piston is pretty much underneath the boiler by now
09:48<drac_boy>and quoting a site with some info on them "Owing to the swing of the front cylinders when traversing sharp curves, it was found impracticable to apply a manually operated cylinder cock rigging and the cylinder cocks, therefore, are operated by air."
09:49<drac_boy>an air hose is easy to reroute to the front truck ... a cable would had been too difficult to use by then
09:49*Flygon nod
09:49<drac_boy>only the second set of drivers were fixed to the chassis .. the front one pretty much was 'floating' to put it that way
09:49<Flygon>I just find that amazing
09:49<drac_boy>still .. really sharp curve and everything
09:51<drac_boy>flygon btw these didn't have crazy tracks to deal with but still http://www.trevorheath.com/livesteaming/uploads/VIME/GB0714.jpg they choose a 0-4-0+0-4-0 mallet since it'll take the small curves with ease
09:52<drac_boy>thats a K1
09:52<Flygon>How narrow is that gauge?
09:52<drac_boy>not sure heh
09:53<Flygon>It seems absurdly narrow...
09:53<drac_boy>and heres something on a bigger size http://www.sandstone-estates.com/oldSHT/heritage/rail/Loco_info/NGG16.jpg
09:54<drac_boy>and if you want the 'next size up' I think you pretty much already know what it is .. a 4-8-2+2-8-4
09:54-!-dada_ [~dada_@dhcp-077-250-097-191.chello.nl] has joined #openttd
09:54<drac_boy>or this is a bit smaller.. 3 not 4 drive axles http://www.trainnet.org/Libraries/Lib018/ZR-1.JPG
09:55<Flygon>Man
09:55<drac_boy>beyer-garratt are pretty common in various sizes and gauges tho
09:55<Flygon>Australia never got these interesting locomotives :p
09:55<Flygon>Or, at least
09:55<Flygon>Victoria didn't
09:55<Flygon>I know New South Wales got some interesting designs...
09:58<drac_boy>flygon and btw uk had the LNER U1 (which was a beyer-garratt) ... but they didn't like it too much .. and a true story goes that one or two of these on a train failed .. and had to be aided by a Big Bertha .. only one time there was so many drive axles in a single train
09:58<drac_boy>on lickey incline where else
09:58<Flygon>Big Bertha...
09:59<drac_boy>can you imagine that? two garratts and one big locomotive on one train in uk
09:59<Flygon>Never heard of her
09:59<Flygon>UK is very restrictive on train sizes...
09:59<drac_boy>flygon its a nickname they gave to a unique single 0-10-0 that had the primary task of banking up that steep line
09:59<Flygon>Kinda surprising they have the official 200km/h recoord
09:59<Flygon>Ahh, I see
09:59<Flygon>(I'm surprised there was no verified 200km/h+ speed attempts by the US...)
09:59<drac_boy>yeah I doubt they would ever want a 5-coupled locomotive anywhere else
10:00<drac_boy>flygon I love the br.05 .. what else :p its the speed record holder after all. to our own ;)
10:00<Flygon>br.05?
10:01<drac_boy>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRG_Class_05
10:01<Flygon>You mean the BR125?
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10:01<Flygon>Ah
10:02<drac_boy>mind you they didn't just hold the speed record but they clocked 100+mph in everyday service without much of a care
10:02<LordAro>heyo
10:02<drac_boy>even usa trains in the northeast usually only had a 60-80mph average
10:02<Flygon>Sounds like the PPR T1 (I hope I got that right)
10:03<drac_boy>abit at least a few streamlined ones did edge the average to a bit over 90mph
10:03<Flygon>Heya LordAro
10:03<drac_boy>especially the F7's with their striking trains
10:03<Flygon>In Australia, you're lucky to find a steam locomotive that'd breach 140km/h
10:04<drac_boy>heres an artwork of two of them http://www.ozarkairfieldartworks.com/images/hudsmd_1_.gif
10:04<Flygon>I know New South Wales had some on the Syd-Newcastle line that'd break 160km/h, though... and I'm reasonably sure the VR Heavy Harry/H-class could easily make such a speed on modern RFR lines...
10:04<drac_boy>and yeah I know its funny they were called F7's .. and you had emd with their own F7 diesels .. confusing a bit indeed
10:04<Flygon>Wow, that looks smooth as heck
10:05<drac_boy>flygon another thing to keep in mind re the real speed records...
10:07<drac_boy>the mallard had a long downslope and even then it had to be pulled out of service due to blown center piston valves (or was that the pre-mallard attempt?) ... while the BR 05 had to contend with flat track all the way
10:07<Flygon>Ah, yes
10:07<Flygon>I know
10:07<drac_boy>and the mallard didn't exactly hold fast daily service sometimes
10:07<drac_boy>at least in one case it was aiding a fast freight train ... 0_o
10:07<Flygon>It did strike me as the Brits being overtly optimistic
10:08<Flygon>But it also marks me as surprised the Americans didn't try to officially break that steam record
10:08<Flygon>They clearly had the capacity
10:08<drac_boy>seem a bit silly to watch a 50mph train of mixed goods vans and tarped flatcars .. with an mallard leading it
10:08<Flygon>50mph?
10:08-!-Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4d08e088.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
10:08<Flygon>It's not that silly in Australia :p
10:09<drac_boy>flygon yeah I wonder about that too but you have to remember that usa at least did have the GG1 then Metroliner emu and the turbine Turboliner for speed
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10:09<Flygon>You get situations where where locomotives that've been authorized to go just over 130km/h here, end up being limited to 80km/h on lines with TWPS enabled... because the 130km/h locomotive lacks TWPS
10:09<Flygon>Which is a wallbanger. Because there's no discernable reason for that rule.
10:09<drac_boy>the Turboliner holds the canadian speed record btw ... which is a surprise considering theres very little use for high speed tracks except between london-toronto-montreal
10:10<drac_boy>the Metroliner were finally replaced (abit not without hiccups) by the Acela trainsets
10:10<Flygon>So you end up with steam locomotives such as the R-class going over 130km/h on old rattly track (and doing it perfectly legally) that frankly shouldn't be handling it... but as soon as it goes near track that could probably handle trains trashing through @ 200km/h? "Nope! Sorry! You have no TWPS, 80km/h plzkthx"
10:11<Flygon>Turboliner?
10:11<drac_boy>the GG1? well .. they were scheduled to run on 160km/h timetables even as they became 40+ years old .. thats quite something to be honst
10:11<Flygon>The UAC Turbotrain?
10:11<Flygon>Yeah, the GG1 is quite impressive
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10:11<drac_boy>flygon .. yeah .. that was one of the few names http://fredstuckmann.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures\75243\IMG_0056.jpg almost looks like something from the NS railroads you know?
10:12<Flygon>Honestly
10:12<drac_boy>I know NS had something with such a similar nose + raisedcab setup .. just don't recall the name
10:12<Flygon>When I look at the Turbotrain
10:12<Flygon>It reminds me of the SAR 'Jumbojet' Comeng's
10:12<drac_boy>japan has a lot of them tho .. both short and long "noses"
10:12<drac_boy>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/JNR_419_series_EMU_014.JPG that shows one example with a short nose
10:13<drac_boy>admittly the cab is not as raised but who cares
10:13<Flygon>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/AdelaideRail_4.jpg
10:13<drac_boy>heh mm
10:13<drac_boy>interesting
10:13<Flygon>South Australia is... odd :p
10:13<drac_boy>looks like a dmu+cabcoach set?
10:13<Flygon>They basically had a Diesel version of Victoria's electric fleet
10:14<Flygon>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Melboure_Comeng_381M_Metro.jpg Pictured: Non-Jumbojet Electric version
10:14<Flygon>Yeah
10:14<Flygon>It's a DMU+cabcoach
10:16<drac_boy>flygon these were ours http://www.budd-rdc.org/images/small-bcr-rdc.png
10:16<Flygon>404
10:17<Flygon>Oops! Google Chrome could not find www.budd-rdc.org
10:17<Flygon>Oh, that's odd
10:17<Flygon>It loaded nw
10:17<Flygon>now*
10:17<Flygon>Huh
10:17<Flygon>According to Wikipedia
10:17<Flygon>The Adelaide Railcar I showed you is actually partially based off the Budd railcar you linked me
10:17<drac_boy>and mind you some of them had unusual routes .. such as one on B&O being a 700+ miles route .. I mean .. 700 miles with only 40-50 seats? the connections must had been worth it to run such a lone rdc like that for many years
10:18<Flygon>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_class_railcar
10:18<drac_boy>of course it doesn't help that in northeast usa pre-amtrak there were always a lot of quirky small connections just for the sake of letting passengers be able to go about anywhere they wish to
10:19<Flygon>Makes sense
10:19<drac_boy>nothing like watching an emd E5 rushing underneath the footbridge with nothing except a semi-occupied sleeper behind it as to make connection with an actual train
10:20<Flygon>Heh
10:20<Flygon>brb a sec
10:21<drac_boy>flygon I have one magazine that listed the typical timetable for one of the station at Buffalo ... and you might have a heart attack ... the station switcher was always kept busy around the clock .. sometimes with very tight connection ... eg one train due at 11:42 and two of its coaches have to be detached to then be placed onto another train due at 11:46
10:22<drac_boy>even a winter storm wasn't going to slow them down :-)
10:23<drac_boy>and the crazy part: the article noted that a lot of the NYC trains ran in two sections .. thats just more shufflings to do at the station 0_o
10:23<Flygon>Back
10:23<NGC3982>&w 45
10:23<Flygon>Woah o.o
10:23<drac_boy>yeah
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10:24<drac_boy>flygon of course if you wanted the opposite of that .. head to just about any small station in mid-usa ...
10:25<Flygon>If I wanted the opposite, I'd go to anywhere in Victoria :p
10:25<drac_boy>many of them by the 30's were usually only serviced by an old local train or more typically a mixed train .. so yeah there wasn't exactly a schedule at all ...
10:25<Flygon>Our rail system is very slack...
10:26<Flygon>eg. you'll get situations where a HSR-capable train is driven to a town... and then turned off for 8-12 hours until it runs again
10:26<drac_boy>sometimes the old timetable board may show 10:30 arrival but ... guess what? its not till 11:10 that it finally shows up only to leave the coach behind on platform as it goes to shuffle a freight wagon or two away before putting the train back together and deperature when it wants to
10:26<Flygon>Despite the fact it could easily act as a shuttle for 5-6ish trips between then
10:26<drac_boy>that was your typical mixed train on old branchlines ^^
10:27<Flygon>Victoria used to have a lot of branchlines, though... and most probably acted exactly the same way you described
10:27<Flygon>And a lot is an understatemet
10:27<Flygon>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_Act I'd make a comment about how this created more tentacles than Japanese... well... you get the picture. :p
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10:28<drac_boy>flygon of course the other thing too is ... some of the canadian branchlines in the 50's had very old light locomotives that would throw off someone used to the modern big locomotives on CN, NYC, etc ....
10:28<drac_boy>nothing like getting off a Hudson train ... only to later find an old 1890-dated sliding valve worked coal fired locomotive rambling away spotting some freight wagons for the branchline nearby
10:29<Flygon>Heh
10:29<Flygon>http://www.vrhistory.com/VRMaps/Vic1930.pdf (also, branchline central)
10:29<Flygon>We have a Diesel-like version of that here
10:29<drac_boy>usually there was a good reason tho .. these old 4-4-0 or 2-6-0 were so much lighter than even a GP9 .. and the old branchlines had wooden trestles on a lot of them
10:29<Flygon>T-class locomotives were built in the 1950s, and are still usd for mainline (and branchline, obviously) freight
10:29<drac_boy>still .. sliding valves and no roller bearing etc ... can be a silly contrast
10:30<Flygon>They're underpowered compared to modern locomotives, but are nearly unkillable
10:30<drac_boy>oh and of course some part of canada had its own idocisms too (hope I spelled that right?) ..
10:30<Flygon>They're like The Terminator of locomotives. If The Terminator was built by VR in the 1950s, had only 700 horsepower, and only went 100km/h...
10:30<drac_boy>such as freight wagons with Arch suspension trucks (rather the more modern ones) still doing 70mph ... !
10:31<Flygon>I guess they don't worry about goods being shaken?
10:31<drac_boy>of course these wagons were retricted to canada.. they couldn't travel to usa
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10:32<drac_boy>flygon and where else could you find a tank locomotive doing a fly-drop of commuter coaches? :)
10:32<Flygon>North Korea?
10:34<drac_boy>flygon .. as it went.. the tank locomotive stopped outside the station .. one man got down to manner the switch .. then the train restarted ... and the locomotive cuts off to head up the spur while the coaches just whiz by onto the platform .. then the loco returns back to the line and couple onto other end of train ...and quoting the article "and even the station master didn't bat an eye !!"
10:34<drac_boy>I guess it was the crew's lazy way of getting the train turned around without having to do the slower normal runarounds ;)
10:34<Flygon>Heh
10:35<Flygon>Well, it worked :p
10:35<NGC3982>http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/modelling/24712-remembering-kv-6-a.html
10:35<drac_boy>flygon here's something of a bit of tidbit for you to know...
10:35<drac_boy>there were a lot of EMD E units in usa right?
10:36<drac_boy>well canada only had two .. and they were originally ordered for a montreal-newyork run ... otherwise canada only had and knew the F units alone
10:36<drac_boy>very rare and unique two E units indeed
10:36<Flygon>"In its initial attack on the Germans, the tank broke in half when crossing a ravine."
10:37<drac_boy>made sense after all tho .. canada did not have a lot of fast flat tracks that would suit the A1A-A1A diesels
10:37<Flygon>Good job, Russia
10:37<drac_boy>flygon a different diesel in one moment ;) ...
10:38<NGC3982>:D
10:38<Flygon>Stilll
10:38<Flygon>Much less fail than when Australia and New Zealand independantly designed a tank
10:38<Flygon>The end result only ended up in parades
10:39<Flygon>Mainly because anyone who was inside it, for a start, died of carbon monoxide poisoning
10:40<drac_boy>fairbanks-morse 'trainmaster' .. a bit ahead for their time .. they were quite powerful for either longer train at same speed or vice versa .. not many roads could use that at the time
10:40<drac_boy>anyway afk for a bit or so
10:42<Flygon>Alright
10:42<Flygon>Have fun!
10:42<NGC3982>Flygon: haha
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11:15*drac_boy pokes flygon
11:15<drac_boy>:)
11:15<Flygon>Beep
11:16<drac_boy>so what doing anyway flygon?
11:16<Flygon>Just built the Moscow-N. Nowgorod line
11:17<Flygon>Building the Woronesh-N. Nowgorod line now
11:17<Flygon>When I get this network done...
11:17<Flygon>Signalling will be a pain
11:17<Flygon>And then trains...
11:18<drac_boy>heh?
11:19<Flygon>And I just built that
11:19<Flygon>Either way
11:19<Flygon>Trains are like
11:19<Flygon>Gonna kill me
11:19<Flygon>I'm perpetually on between 1m to 2m Euro
11:20<Flygon>Each individual EMU's gonna cost half a mill...
11:23<drac_boy>whats your yearly profit?
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11:27<Flygon>Uuuh
11:27<Flygon>Hoow do I get the yearly?
11:30<FLHerne>Finance window, presumably
11:30<Flygon>All my total incomes just show negatives...
11:30<Flygon>Because they show construction exponentian
11:31<Flygon>Oh, wait
11:31<Flygon>It's train operating costs that's most of the cost...
11:31<Flygon>There you go
11:31<Flygon>I spend 2.4bEUR on maintainence
11:31<Flygon>Get 2.8bEUR profit
11:31<Flygon>And spend 500kEUR yearly on construction
11:32<Flygon>Rest is compensated by trams
11:33<Flygon>Hmm
11:33<Flygon>I ought to trim some services
11:33<Flygon>Some are now needlessly double headed...
11:34<drac_boy>heh flygon sounds like you're not quite good at managing that company yet? :)
11:34<Flygon>I've been busy
11:34<Flygon>Constructing
11:34<Flygon>:p
11:34<Flygon>Not actually making new profitable services
11:34<drac_boy>:p
11:34<Flygon>I could be a multi-trillionaire if I wanted to
11:34<Flygon>But I want to build 329km/h lines instead
11:34<drac_boy>flygon hmm well sounds like you have quite different company path than I do tho
11:35<drac_boy>especially when you mentioned 'signals' and eurostar
11:35<Flygon>...except it's 1926
11:35<drac_boy>;)
11:35<Flygon>I have no signals yet
11:35<Flygon>On newer lines
11:35<Flygon>Because there's no trains on them yet :p
11:35<Flygon>I should send a .sav
11:36<drac_boy>1926 ... thats only 6 years for me but I might have ended up with one line worked by a crocodile
11:38<Flygon>I've been going since...
11:38<Flygon>1842
11:40<Flygon>Okay
11:41<drac_boy>well I only can start at 1920 but :->
11:41<Flygon>Renewed and updated/changed my rollingstock
11:41<Flygon>Oughta be more profitable now
11:41<Flygon>I use 2CC :p
11:41<Flygon>Also experimenting with Dutch trainset...
11:41<Flygon>But
11:41<Flygon>I am not using anything in it...
11:41<Flygon>Running costs are toooooooo low
11:41<Flygon>It's not worthwhile using it
11:41<drac_boy>probably your own game setting is wrong ;)
11:41<Flygon>Because it's basically cheating
11:42<Flygon>Probably
11:42<Flygon>Hahaha
11:44<V453000>you can always load basecosts mod as a last newGRF and adjust all previous newGRFs at once
11:44<V453000>having them always keep similar costs
11:44<V453000>not a perfect solution but if you really care about things cost, then it is a nice tool to make it more similar if you mix train sets
11:45<V453000>caring about costs in general is not quite smart though ;)
11:45<Flygon>Gotcha
11:45<Flygon>I'll need to keep that in mind next time
11:45<Flygon>Though, I have no Dutch anything in action at the moment anyway...
11:45<Flygon>But the game would prolly explode if I removed the GRF now :P
11:46*drac_boy only has dbsetxl alone in temperate :p
11:46<Flygon>Ahh
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11:49<V453000>yes removing newGRFs isnt the best thing to do :)
11:49<V453000>adding basecosts should not hurt anything though
11:49<Flygon>You can do that live?
11:51<Flygon>drac_boy: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2651992/Flurrail27.sav Go wild :p
11:52<keoz>weird. I can't compile version -1.2.3, while I could compile version 1.2.3-RC1
11:52<drac_boy>Flygon I'll have to look some another day .. only have ttdxp alone many of the times sorry :)
11:52<Flygon>Drat :p
11:53<Flygon>I have... odd bobs and sods loaded
11:53<drac_boy>heh
11:58<Flygon>V453 is probably opening that .sav, and facepalming :p
11:59<drac_boy>heh
12:00<drac_boy>flygon tbh a lot of my lines are singles and sometimes trains are seperated only by programmable signals too
12:00<drac_boy>:-)
12:00<Flygon>Ah
12:00<Flygon>I double track everything :p
12:00<drac_boy>well its pointless tbh ;)
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12:02<Flygon>Ehh
12:02<Flygon>I'm lazy
12:02<drac_boy>theres a thing called bidirectional signals :P
12:03<V453000>I dont open everything I get to :P
12:03<drac_boy>heh
12:04<V453000>hm yeah that is pretty wtf to me
12:04<Flygon>I do know of more advanced signalling
12:04<Flygon>But I am a lazybum
12:05<drac_boy>flygon in some cases I have an old route I started early on with .. then eventually build a better route but keep the old one open .. and just program the signals to deal with different trains getting difference preferences on the two routes
12:05<V453000>signals are just the last bit, all other system not :p
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12:08<drac_boy>can be fun to watch the old crocodile with its old+new wagons taking the new route while the modern dmu gts stuck heading up the old twisty one instead
12:10<Flygon>Heh
12:10<Flygon>I've made a bad habit out of futureproofing everything
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12:11<drac_boy>well I prefer to get good routes rather than trying to make a very short one which wouldn't earn so much
12:11<drac_boy>anyway need to go figure out some lunch, see you another time ok? ;)
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12:13<Flygon>Alright
12:13<Flygon>I gotta sleep
12:13<Flygon>Night, peeps
12:17<@Yexo><keoz> weird. I can't compile version -1.2.3, while I could compile version 1.2.3-RC1 <- any more information? error messages?
12:20<keoz>Yexo : the first try was on the tar.xz tarball. I had an error. I retried but with the .gz tarball, and that time it worked. I will check it again and I tell you.
12:21<@Yexo>if it fails please also make sure the checksums match those on openttd.org, if not, download the files again first
12:21<@Yexo>and thanks for testing :)
12:21<keoz>np
12:27<keoz>Yexo : it's fine that time. Don't know what was wrong, maybee some file corruption. Anyway it compiles normally now.
12:31<@Yexo>good to hear :)
12:32<keoz>yeah
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12:58<NGC3982>Evening.
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13:07<@Alberth>o/
13:07<BadBrett>Is there anyway I can print the variable values from a certain callback?
13:08<BadBrett>(to discover errors more easily)
13:09<frosch123>https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/NewGRF_Debugging#Variable_.2F_Property_inspection_tool <- only that
13:09<frosch123>variables, but no callback results
13:10<BadBrett>thanks!
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14:22<LordAro>quietness
14:29*NGC3982 is frustrated by ECS.
14:32<@Alberth>play FIRS instead
14:34<LordAro>product placement on #openttd :)
14:36<frosch123>yeah, play openttd!
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14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24659 /trunk/src/lang (latvian.txt russian.txt) (2012-11-01 18:45:12 UTC)
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<@DorpsGek>latvian - 3 changes by Parastais
14:45<@DorpsGek>russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
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14:59<NGC3982>Alberth: I know, but i got a bit tired of it.
15:00<@Alberth>ah, ok
15:00<NGC3982>But this is a real challenge
15:00<NGC3982>FIRS is dead easy.
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15:00<NGC3982>Good looking, but easy.
15:00<NGC3982>ECS is like the Silver Surfer of OpenTTD
15:01<@Alberth>you should try a Silicon Valley game script :)
15:01<@Alberth>I tried ECS a few times, but didn't like it much
15:02<NGC3982>Btw, if i understand ECS correctly; http://i.imgur.com/taiJD.png
15:02<NGC3982>Will i be able to add more glass if i add more steel?
15:02<@Alberth>but then again, I just like building rail networks
15:02<NGC3982>Or is everything in ECS based on transporting?
15:02-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.162.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:02<NGC3982>Alberth: :)
15:03<@Alberth>and nothing large scale, just ad-hoc building connections
15:04<NGC3982>I see
15:04<NGC3982>Got any examples running?
15:04<NGC3982>I remember being new to OpenTTD and this channel, joining a serious co-op - ruining it totally.
15:04<NGC3982>:D
15:05<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/centre_coal_delivery.png
15:06<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/feeder.png
15:06<NGC3982>oh my
15:06<NGC3982>Oh my*
15:06<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/long_way_up.png
15:07<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/map.png map of the first 2
15:07<NGC3982>Hehe
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15:10<NGC3982>Alberth: That looks nice.
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15:11<@Alberth>yeah, it was the first time I played with that much water, it was quite enjoyable
15:11<DanMacK>So anyone up for the enhanced bouys challenge?
15:11<DanMacK>What was your percentage Alberth?
15:12<@Alberth>percentage?
15:13<DanMacK>M assuming a map with lots of water?
15:13<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/Flonbourne%20Bridge%20Transport%2c%201981-08-13.sav <-- and an older game
15:13<@Alberth>oh that percentage :) 40% iirc
15:14<DanMacK>http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Sirius_(1837)coo
15:14<DanMacK>Cool
15:14<DanMacK>I tend to use 90% myself :D
15:15<@Alberth>sounds like fun :)
15:15<DanMacK>A lot of small islands. Trains aren't my main method of transport
15:15<NGC3982>Got damnit.
15:15<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/pGkP5.png
15:15<@Alberth>yeah, must be, otherwise you never get 90%
15:15<NGC3982>I don't understand it!%#% ;_;
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15:16<NGC3982>Alberth: NEat.
15:16<@Alberth>I never got further than 1981 :p
15:16<DanMacK> Hey andy
15:17<@Alberth>o/ mr the north
15:17<DanMacK>I start a lot of games then get distracted
15:17<@Alberth>I tend to play just one day
15:18<DanMacK>Normally by things in my early games that are out of place
15:18<@Alberth>hehe :)
15:19<DanMacK>Then I have to research and draw that stuff... lol
15:19-!-MINM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd
15:19<@Alberth>a common problem for developers, you cannot use something without getting annoyed about something that you need to fix IMMEDIATELY :)
15:20-!-MINM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit []
15:20<DanMacK>Exactly
15:20*NGC3982 is getting frustrated.
15:20<DanMacK>Like enhanced bouys... lol
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15:26<NGC3982>andythenorth: I plead for your assistance.
15:27-!-MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd
15:27<andythenorth>?
15:28<NGC3982>I fail to understand how to increase the maximum allowed cargo delivered to the ECS Vehicle Factory.
15:29<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/sUGas.png
15:29<NGC3982>Is transporting >75% enough?
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>so... what's the official way to start a program that it won't be killed when i exit the terminal session?
15:29<@Alberth>nohup Eddi|zuHause &
15:29<DanMacK>Wrong industry set
15:29<DanMacK>Ask George
15:30<NGC3982>Oh.
15:30<DanMacK>Andy does FIRS
15:30<NGC3982>I actually thought he did both.
15:30<NGC3982>Made*
15:31<NGC3982>andythenorth: Excuse me.
15:31<DanMacK>Some of his graphics are in ecs iirc but coding is all George
15:31<NGC3982>Who's George?
15:32<NGC3982>The thing is, i don't know if i'm doing this the right way, since i can't find wiki entries that explains it.
15:32<DanMacK>The guy who did ECS :P
15:32<LordAro>NGC3982: go back to your cave :P
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that seemed to work
15:32<NGC3982>:(
15:32<DanMacK>You bfound the ecs wiki right?
15:33<NGC3982>Speaking of, i usually start all my linux software in a new screen, never exiting it per-say.
15:33<andythenorth>gee
15:33<andythenorth>doing ECS as well?
15:33<NGC3982>DanMacK: Yes, i did.
15:33<andythenorth>that would need a whole extra andythenorth
15:33<DanMacK>Lol
15:33<NGC3982>A quantum generated Boltzman Andy-brain would be a very effective solution to many things.
15:34<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I think you get a nohup.out with stdout now, you may want to redirect that
15:34<frosch123>oh, there are other guys making grf with acronyms?
15:35<andythenorth>:P
15:35<NGC3982>DanMacK: The thing is, when reading the Wiki entry and experimenting with transported percentage, i'm not getting any clear message in what on earth happends with the lying cargo when exporting.
15:35<andythenorth>no IIA
15:35<andythenorth>hmm
15:35<NGC3982>All kudos on Andy not making FIRS so (blastly) confusing.
15:35<andythenorth>what to do next
15:35<DanMacK>NGC3982 are you looking to increase acceptance levels?
15:35<NGC3982>DanMacK: Yes.
15:35<andythenorth>- FIRS economies support?
15:35<andythenorth>- graphics changing over time?
15:36<andythenorth>- soup?
15:36<NGC3982>DanMacK: That is the main thing i want to achieve.
15:36<NGC3982>Wish*.
15:36<DanMacK>So having ghe industry stockpile more delivered items?
15:36<Eddi|zuHause><NGC3982> Speaking of, i usually start all my linux software in a new screen, never exiting it per-say. <-- something didn't work with screen and gui apps (ssh -X) in combination
15:36<NGC3982>andythenorth: Soup is good.
15:36<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Oh, i see.
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>i mean i couldn't get gui apps to start at all
15:37<NGC3982>But X works otherwise+
15:37<NGC3982>-++?
15:38<DanMacK>You can disable the stockpiling feature to deliver unlimited cargo
15:38<NGC3982>DanMacK: That is not my intuition.
15:38<NGC3982>DanMacK: And that actually makes ECS useless.
15:38<NGC3982>I wish i had more knowledge in X. I'm only using Linux via SSH (non-X) connection.
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: i could start gui apps from an ssh -X session, but not when i ran screen in that session
15:40<NGC3982>Hm
15:40<DanMacK>There's no way to increase stockpiles without recoding
15:40<NGC3982>DanMacK: But i notice them increasing and decreasing at times+
15:40<NGC3982>Something makes it go up or down.
15:40<DanMacK>Hmmm
15:40<DanMacK>Pm georvge
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: that has something to do with steady supply
15:41<NGC3982>Where, and how?
15:41<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Oh.
15:41<NGC3982>Ooh
15:41<DanMacK>On the forums
15:41<NGC3982>A bell in my brain went 'ding'
15:42<NGC3982>In FIRS i recall something like "8t if both are delivered within two months of each other".
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>that is totally unrelated, but... :)
15:42<NGC3982>Yes, but i guess that was something of what you ment
15:42<NGC3982>Or ..something.
15:43<NGC3982>..Right?
15:44<NGC3982>Don't keep me hanging, Bruder.
15:49<LordAro>Hmm. I may have asked this before, but would some of you nice code-y people be nice enough to take a look at my program? https://bitbucket.org/LordAro/extractdrs
15:51<@Yexo>Converts (a part of) a string to a 4 bit uint. <- probably for bytes, not bits
15:51<@Yexo>that function is also very inefficient with "string str" as parameter, it causes a copy of the string
15:51<@Yexo>try "const string &str" instead
15:53<@Yexo>FioCreateDirectory is copied from OpenTTD. That's fine, but mind the license
15:54<LordAro>yes, i meant to put licence notices in the files (and with the project)
15:54<blathijs>if (dirFile) { <-- There is no else, making me think you might be suppressing errors here
15:54<LordAro>(it's very useful :) )
15:54<@Yexo>you're mixing cout with printf, that's a bad idea
15:55<LordAro>blathijs: maybe, i copied that from the internet somewhere :L
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15:55<@Yexo>I don't really like the use of std::string, but I guess that's personal. It feels out of place for memory buffers that are not really strings
15:56<@Yexo>what kind of comments do you want?
15:56<LordAro>Yexo: 1) i believe i saw somewhere that "printf('\n');" was much faster than "cout << '\n';" so i used that in those places
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15:57<@Yexo>as soon as you mix printf and cout all performance is down the drain
15:57<LordAro>2) i quite agree, but i wanted to make the program as close to C++ as possible, rather than plain old C :L
15:57<@Yexo>if printf is faster (could be, haven't tested) you have to stick to only printf and never use cout
15:57<LordAro>3) comments: stuff like this :)
16:00<@Yexo>you never check the actual filesize, you just assume it's "big enough", ie at least 63 bytes or something like that
16:03<LordAro>hmm. never thought of that :L
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16:08<@Alberth>LordAro: speed in context of doing IO is rubbish anyway, the IO device is always the bottleneck anyway
16:09<@Yexo>if you read a large by character by character, scanf is several orders of magnitudes faster than cin.
16:09<@Yexo>of course nothing beats reading it as one large buffer
16:10<@Yexo>but it can make a difference
16:10<@Alberth>somewhat, until you have 1 disk block usually
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16:11<@Alberth>ie as long as you keep the IO device busy, it's as fast as it's going to get
16:11<@Yexo>completely agree
16:11<andythenorth>use node.js!
16:11<andythenorth>it's non-blocking!
16:11<@Yexo>and keeping the IO device busy is a whole different thing, not something to be concerned about usually
16:11<andythenorth>untrained programmers can write scalable apps!
16:11<@Yexo>except for special programs where you really need IO throughput
16:12*andythenorth is dicking around and should write some FIRS
16:12<andythenorth>what larks
16:12<@Alberth>andythenorth: I heard node.js is good for writing FIRS
16:12<andythenorth>yeah
16:12<andythenorth>it's awesome for it?
16:12<andythenorth>try it and let me know?
16:13<andythenorth>you can probably auto-convert the python right?
16:13<@Alberth>ok, but don't hold your breath, it may be a few years before I can report to you
16:13<andythenorth>no you miss the point
16:13<andythenorth>with node.js, *untrained programmers* can deploy yesterday
16:14<andythenorth>the problem is that you know how to program :P
16:14<TyrHeimdal>ottd is missing a merging signal
16:14<andythenorth>ottd is missing a lemmings-style 'nuke everything' button
16:14<andythenorth>peter1138: ^ you wanted to get back into openttd dev
16:14<@Alberth>andythenorth: oh, I should thus first unlearn programming!
16:14<TyrHeimdal>turns green when the train can start to accelerate to fit into a slot on the line ahead
16:14<TyrHeimdal>andythenorth: oooh! that would be fun!
16:14<andythenorth>Alberth: yes, then you will be as skilled as me
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16:15<@Alberth>TyrHeimdal: oh that one, there are priority setups for it at openttdcoop.org
16:15<@Alberth>they made an art of running trains
16:15<TyrHeimdal>Alberth: yeah, I know. I just wish there was an actual sign for it instead of track/sign hacks :)
16:16<@Alberth>TyrHeimdal: what would be the fun in that? :)
16:16<TyrHeimdal>would be more realistic :)
16:16<@Alberth>TyrHeimdal: nah, real world has too many bugs
16:17<TyrHeimdal>hehe
16:20<TyrHeimdal>a signal that turns green when there is a x long slot would be enough
16:21<TyrHeimdal>...and openttdcoop is for ppl on the level of stephen hawking
16:22<TyrHeimdal>they are over the top train-track-smart
16:22<TyrHeimdal>iz crazeh
16:23<TyrHeimdal>in a very good vay ofc
16:23<TyrHeimdal>way
16:34<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/KyO8K.png
16:34<NGC3982>I think this will work
16:35*andythenorth missed on ')' char
16:35<andythenorth>49 times :P
16:36<NGC3982>Bummer.
16:38<andythenorth>hmm
16:39<andythenorth>Yexo: can you help me with a FIRS issue (arable_farm.pypnml) ?
16:39*Alberth sends andy ")"*49
16:39<@Yexo>what needs to change?
16:39<andythenorth>macro INDUSTRY_OUTPUT_CARGO_2 is failing on compile
16:39<andythenorth>I'll post a diff
16:40<andythenorth>gah, it's a big diff :P
16:41<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/1861/
16:41<andythenorth>most of it is not relevant, I just touched a lot of code
16:41<andythenorth>nmlc ERROR: "./sprites/nml/generated_pnml/arable_farm.pnml", line 152: Syntax error, unexpected token "if"
16:42<@Yexo>you remove all properties but not the line with "property {" on it
16:42<andythenorth>ah
16:42<andythenorth>yes
16:42<andythenorth>actually the issue is missing '}'
16:42<@Yexo>yep
16:43<andythenorth>:m
16:43<@Yexo>might also want to reversed the added space in front of that line
16:43<andythenorth>done
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16:44<andythenorth>I haven't encountered these if blocks before
16:44<andythenorth>is that action 6?
16:44-!-Jake [~chatzilla@host31-51-108-249.range31-51.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
16:44<@Yexo>no, action 7 or 9
16:44<andythenorth>ok
16:44<andythenorth>I should learn about those before I go to far
16:44<@Yexo>and well, they use action 6 too
16:44<andythenorth>they are required for economies
16:45<andythenorth>economies mostly only touch the properties block
16:45<@Yexo>shouldn't be too hard to understand
16:45<andythenorth>so my guess was I would wrap the entire item block in an action 7 or 9
16:46<andythenorth>but this looks a bit smarter than that
16:46<@Yexo>you can do that too
16:46<andythenorth>I had better read the docs before writing all code :P
16:46<andythenorth>controversial :P
16:47<andythenorth>a lot of the time with nml, I can code first, docs second :P
16:47<@Yexo>good :)
16:47<@Yexo>means it's intuitive enough not to fall back on the documentation for every line of code
16:48<andythenorth>so I can just wrap the entire item block in if / else?
16:48<andythenorth>is there an elif?
16:48<@Yexo>"else if"
16:48<@Yexo>and yes, you can do that
16:49<andythenorth>or I could just do lots of 'if' ?
16:49<andythenorth>this just checks the value of a parameter
16:49<andythenorth>wonder if I can have 2 economies by 10pm :P
16:49<@Yexo>you can check whatever you want, but no varaction2 variables
16:50<andythenorth>k
16:50<andythenorth>hmm, there's no industry equivalent to disabling vehicles by setting climate 'none'
16:51<andythenorth>nvm
16:51<andythenorth>doesn't matter :P
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16:56<andythenorth>yay
16:57<andythenorth>arable farm appears / disappears from map depending on parameter
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17:02<@Alberth>48 if's to go :p
17:03<andythenorth>49 copy-pastes
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17:04<andythenorth>once I've worked it out
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17:04<@Yexo>andythenorth: does the fishing grounds even work?
17:04<andythenorth>Yexo: think so, why?
17:04<@Yexo>produce_cargo_arrival: THIS_ID(produce);
17:04<@Yexo>that callback produces exactly the same amount as there is incoming cargo
17:05<andythenorth>ha
17:05<@Yexo>but there can't be any incoming cargo
17:05<@Yexo>since: accept_cargo_types: [];
17:05<andythenorth>don't they produce from action 0 prop as well?
17:05<@Yexo>ah, of course :)
17:05<andythenorth>I've been intending to look at that warning sometime :)
17:05<@Yexo>yes, doing that now
17:06<@Yexo>and done
17:06<@Yexo>please pull before you continue
17:07<andythenorth>thanks :)
17:15<andythenorth>some of the FIRS repo structure smells a bit funny now
17:16<andythenorth>e.g. 'sprites/' might be better as 'src/'
17:16<@Yexo>that has always been the case
17:16<andythenorth>and firs.pnml tells what pnml files to include, but build.py does same for python
17:16<andythenorth>and firs.py is class definitions
17:16<andythenorth>I don't mind, but I'm used to it :P
17:16<andythenorth>seems messy
17:17<@Yexo>you need another pull
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17:18<andythenorth>nice
17:18<andythenorth>warnings gone \o/
17:19<andythenorth>now we just need to figure out lang warnings o_O
17:19<@Yexo>I got bored of them :)
17:19<@Yexo>I think quite a big part of the language warnings are valid
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17:19<@Yexo>ie need to get fixed, not ignored
17:19<andythenorth>probably
17:19<andythenorth>I'm snow blind to them
17:20<andythenorth>constants in a global_constants.py file, right? Not in the firs.py with the class definitions?
17:20*andythenorth is adding a list of economies
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17:24<@Yexo>and all language warnings gone :)
17:24<andythenorth>ha
17:27<andythenorth>\o/
17:28<@Alberth>no worries, andy will find new strings to add ;)
17:28<andythenorth>:P
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17:29<@Yexo>I only got rid of warnings where the translations were incompatible with the english version, nothing about untranslated strings
17:31<LordAro>random offtopic followup: I think i've implemented all your suggestions, anything else? https://bitbucket.org/LordAro/extractdrs
17:33<@Yexo>nitpick: you can't relicense gpl v2 to gpl v3+ without permission
17:34<@Alberth>LordAro: line 22 in the .cpp seems useless, as the .h already makes std available
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17:34<@Alberth>I'd not import std globally though
17:34<@Yexo>not in a .h, in a .cpp it's not as bad
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17:36<@Yexo>line 77: you give an error that the file is too small (on cout instead of cerr), but you continue anyway
17:36<@Yexo>expect crashes later
17:36<@Alberth>where do you define uint?
17:37<andythenorth>meh
17:37*andythenorth needs to avoid too much string between python and CPP :P
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17:38<@Alberth>void ExtractDRSFile(string path) <-- any reason it's not "const string &path" ?
17:38<@Yexo>why not get rid of cpp altogether?
17:38<@Yexo>should be easy enough now you use python anyway
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17:39<andythenorth>Yexo: just a matter of time
17:39<andythenorth>meanwhile I want to migrate with 100% working code
17:39<LordAro>Yexo: gpl: thought not - i'll change it, it's no issue
17:39<@Alberth>LordAro: cerr is used for reporting errors normally, although windows has weird ideas about that stream :(
17:39<@Yexo>andythenorth: that's always good :)
17:40<andythenorth>I'm not in a hurry to touch code that works right now and doesn't need changed :)
17:40<@Yexo>LordAro: line 98 and further: you start reading tables from the stream without checking if they fit in the buffer you've read before
17:41<@Yexo>line 103-105 can be replaced with: swap(tableinfos[i].extension[0], tableinfos[i].extension[2]);
17:45<andythenorth>ugh
17:45<andythenorth>I've invented 1 million layers of abstraction
17:45<andythenorth>I dislike that
17:46<@Alberth>LordAro: line 79 has a different character type than line 81
17:46<@Alberth>line 83 will alsways only use data from the memory block?
17:46<@Yexo>also inconsistent with cast styles: line 81 uses a c-style cast while line 83 uses static_cast
17:47<@Yexo>string drstext; drstext.resize(size); file.read(drstext.c_str(), size); or something might work better
17:47<@Yexo>not sure if that's allowed
17:47<@Yexo>but at least it prevents one memcpy
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17:52<@Alberth>I think you should more careful checking on the data you read. You cannot trust data you get from a random file
17:54<@Yexo>agree with Alberth, with a "but" on the use case of the program: if it's a one-off for personal use only litter the code with some asserts about sizes, if you want even one other person to run the code, add more and better error handling
17:54*Alberth agrees completely with that addition
17:56<andythenorth>hmm
17:57<andythenorth>no problem is too complex to solve with another class
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18:00<@Alberth>reduce 999994 layers of abstraction?
18:02<andythenorth>reduce n+1 layers of abstraction :P
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18:03<Rubidium>just prove you can't reduce 0 layers of abstraction and you can reduce from n to n-1 layers of abstraction and you're done ;)
18:04<LordAro>"<Yexo> ...file.read(drstext.c_str(), size); or something might work better" <-- nope, 'invalid conversion from const char* to char*', any ideas?
18:05<@Yexo>don't use that? :p
18:05<LordAro>:P
18:06<@Yexo>casting away the const-ness will most likely work, but it'd undefined behavior
18:07<LordAro>Yexo: would this be better?, it seems to work: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1862/
18:08<@Yexo>yes, that's fine
18:08<@Yexo>still has an extra memory copy, but I guess that's unavailable if you want to use std::string
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18:09<LordAro>ohp, night Alberth :L
18:10<LordAro>Yexo: yes, but neater than it was :)
18:10<@Yexo>definitely
18:13<LordAro>pushed, if you want to waste more time on my little project :)
18:14<andythenorth>can I use two item() blocks to set properties, similar to using two action 0s?
18:14<@Yexo>got the link again?
18:14<@Yexo>andythenorth: yes
18:14<andythenorth>great
18:15<andythenorth>I didn't quite get economies done by 10pm :P
18:15<andythenorth>but I've figured out framework
18:19<andythenorth>don't suppose we can extend newgrf spec to give industries an explicit enable / disable property?
18:19<andythenorth>makes for easier templating :P
18:19<andythenorth>maybe
18:20*andythenorth -> bed
18:20<andythenorth>good night
18:20<@Terkhen>good night andythenorth
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18:29<andythenorth>does an nml if statement work ok with integer logic?
18:29<andythenorth>e.g. "if (param[0] == 1 || 2 || 3)"
18:30<@Yexo>the 2 and 3 in that context are supposed to be boolean
18:30<@Yexo>but in fact there is no real boolean logic in nml, it's all integer logic
18:31<@Yexo>false==0 and true==1, but every integer !=0 evaluates to true
18:31<andythenorth>:)
18:31<andythenorth>hmm
18:31<andythenorth>I need to sleep
18:31<andythenorth>I think I have questions tomorrow :P
18:31<andythenorth>I have working economies, but fugly templating
18:31<andythenorth>nvm
18:31<andythenorth>sleep
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18:34<LordAro>...again
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18:42<@DorpsGek>Commit by yexo :: r24660 trunk/src/engine.cpp (2012-11-01 22:42:29 UTC)
18:42<@DorpsGek>-Feature: do not display the preview window for disabled vehicle types (Eagle_rainbow)
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19:05<@Terkhen>good night :)
19:05<Supercheese>Vale, dormiture
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19:09<@Yexo>good night
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23:14<Flygon>I'm gonna need a more powerful PC
23:15<Flygon>OpenTTD is beginning to have performance issues :p
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---Logclosed Fri Nov 02 00:00:04 2012