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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-11-02

---Logopened Fri Nov 02 00:00:04 2012
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00:18<Nat_aS>play a smaller map
00:19<Nat_aS>use a simpler pathfinder
00:19<Nat_aS>disable some animations
00:19<Nat_aS>load less newgrfs
00:19<Nat_aS>or just get a new computer like a man
00:19<Supercheese>More! Bigger! Better! Faster!
00:19<Nat_aS>also as an added benifit you will be able to play crysis on medium!
00:19<Nat_aS>Actualy, crisis is old
00:20<Nat_aS>what's the new game people have to upgrade there computers for?
00:20<Supercheese>Crysis on max settings is cake
00:20<Nat_aS>or has there not been any?
00:20<Supercheese>These days? I dunno, Skyrim with 500 mods loaded?
00:20<Nat_aS>have PC graphics not advanced since 2007?
00:20<Supercheese>I have no idea
00:20<Nat_aS>this is kind of disturbing
00:20<Nat_aS>I blame consoles
00:21<Nat_aS>yeah, you have to go to modding before you get resource intensive now
00:21<Supercheese>Well, Crysis 2
00:21<Supercheese>but even that's old now
00:21<Nat_aS>and that's because modders don't/can't optimize
00:21<Supercheese>Well, some mods feature meshes with a zillion and five polygons
00:21<Supercheese>That'll tax anything
00:22<Supercheese>Oh, I know
00:22<Supercheese>you need a fast comp for that
00:22<Supercheese>not a game though...
00:22<Nat_aS>yeah, modders are less likely to care about that sort of thing
00:22<Nat_aS>while developers have reached a point where they don't feel the need to advance technology graphicaly
00:23<Nat_aS>all the advances in microprocessor technology are happening for mobile devices and ultrabooks now
00:23<Nat_aS>also, the new generation of consoles won't come out for like, ever
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00:24<Nat_aS>because sony and microsoft don't care or something
00:24<Supercheese>Because they don't have to do any real work and they still rake in money, that's why
00:26<Supercheese>Oh, seems Crysis 3 will be out sometime, there's yer taxing graphics
00:26<Supercheese>Feb 2013, if Wikipedia is to be believed
00:26<Supercheese>Wow, how'd we get so off topic
00:29<Flygon>Nat_aS: It's more that I can't be arsed playing OpenTTD on my desktop
00:29<Flygon>Also, my laptop has a higher resolution
00:29<Flygon>As much as I love my 17in flatscreen CRT, I could use a 24in 2560*1600 LCD panel :D
00:30<Nat_aS>my older laptop has a higher resolution than my newer one
00:31<Nat_aS>I couldn't find a resolution higher than it without going full 1080
00:31<Nat_aS>it's strange
00:31<Nat_aS>because the newer laptop is larger
00:31<Flygon>I was going to say
00:31<Flygon>Transplant the LCD panels?
00:31<Flygon>Except, you can't...
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02:01<Rubidium>Supercheese: what about transport tycoon deluxe with over 20.000 mods loaded? ;)
02:10<Flygon>I wonder if 6 track Odessa - Bukarest is stupidly excessive...
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02:16<andythenorth>so what happens if I have an item block with properties block, but no graphics block?
02:16<andythenorth>for an industry?
02:16*andythenorth thinks tiles with ? will be built
02:20<Supercheese>Rubidium: but there's a 64 GRF load limit
02:20<Supercheese>or 63, perhaps
02:30<Rubidium>those are insignificant to the amount of source code changes
02:30<Supercheese>ah, that's what you mean
02:30<Supercheese>well, I'm not sure I'd call ECS Vectors insignificant
02:32<Rubidium>@calc 60/20000*100
02:32<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 0.3
02:32<Rubidium>it's be about 0.3% of the mods, thus insignificant
02:34<Supercheese>By sheer number, sure
02:34<Supercheese>But what about processing impact?
02:34<Supercheese>Dunno what equation would calculate that best
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02:34<andythenorth>from the profiling I've seen, industry code is negligible
02:35*andythenorth hasn't seen much profiling though
02:36<Supercheese>How about animated industry tiles? Dunno how that profiles either
02:36<Supercheese>From what I recall the sheer volume of vehicles is the biggest hit
02:36<Supercheese>a sheer volume*
02:38<andythenorth>animated / not-animated shouldn't make much difference
02:38<andythenorth>unless the expensive animation trigger is used
02:38<andythenorth>either way, the tile still has to resolve sprites
02:39<andythenorth>and iirc, TB showed that resolving sprites is expensive
02:39*andythenorth has no actual knowledge on this though, only guesses and half-memories :P
02:39<andythenorth>TB had actual stats :P
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03:14<Flygon_>Is there a 'Clone' hotkey?
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04:42<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:44<Elukka>the comments to that story are depressing...
04:44<Elukka>"And just how do they know there are not older stars beyond these.. Rather arrogant to assume they know these are the oldest..."
04:44<Elukka>rather arrogant to assume people who make a career out of this area as ignorant as yourself
04:45<NGC3982>Ignore it.
04:46<Elukka>why is it so hard to accept that a single person can't know everything and therefore there are a great amount of people who know more about a given subject?
04:46<Elukka>why do people lash out against humanity's collective knowledge instead of appreciating it?
04:47<NGC3982>They lack the understanding of what such a thing is, in the first place
04:47<NGC3982>And they do not understand that research like this is not setting money on fire.
04:47<NGC3982>And so on.
04:48<NGC3982>"Just Godless theories.........."
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04:49<Elukka>"Just Godless theories.........." (Posted on a device made possible by Godless Theories)
04:50<NGC3982>It's fantastic.
04:51<Elukka>engineering is testament to the fact that science works
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04:52<Elukka>if science was all wrong as a methodology, why would our nuclear reactors react and superconductors conduct and computers compute?
04:53<blathijs>Be careful not to try to pit your arguments against their faith, it's pointless :-)
04:53<Elukka>that kinda makes science as a whole falsifiable too
04:54<Elukka>if all the stuff based on it didn't work, it'd probably be off. but they do
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04:55<Rubidium>Elukka: science is just reverse engineering $DEITY's design
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04:56<Rubidium>also, if something doesn't compute why would you call it a computer, if something doesn't conduct why would you say it conducts extremely well and if something wouldn't be related to reacting why would you call it a reactor?
04:56<NGC3982>Elukka: We all know that. The thing is that they don't listen to logic.
04:56<NGC3982>Thus, making it useless in discussion.
04:58*Rubidium still has to see prove there isn't some sort of deity, or that there is some sort of deity. Currently I'd say it's undecided, though the prominent instances of deity are most likely not *the* deity
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05:01<Elukka>it's amusing that the catholic church is way more acceptive of science than american christianity in general
05:01<Elukka>they accept evolution, and don't claim a young earth
05:02<Elukka>they even accept that there might be life outside earth
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05:05<Rubidium>the English wikipedia page about Earth's introduction seems like it could be any of the other planets (if you change some stats/numbers/names)
05:05<__ln__>there's nothing special about Earth except that I'm living on it
05:06<andythenorth>can I have a graphics block in an item block without a properties block?
05:06<Rubidium>and this is such a fun trivia question: how many times does the earth rotate around its axis in an average year?
05:06<andythenorth>got an unexpected end of file from nml, can't figure out why
05:06<andythenorth>no line number or such to compare
05:06<Rubidium>file a bug report about the missing line number fo the error ;)
05:07<andythenorth>I'm filing it here
05:07<andythenorth>this is the bug tracker right? :P
05:16<andythenorth>economies just got more complicated :(
05:17<Flygon>Rubidium: It's because people kept editing the page to say that Earth is an insignificant little planet
05:18<Flygon>Some sorta quote from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
05:18<Flygon>I forgot the exact one
05:18<__ln__>mostly harmless?
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05:23<NGC3982>An utterly insignificant little blue-green planet far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western sprial arm of the galaxy".
05:26<Flygon>That one, NGC
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05:28*andythenorth files a bug against self
05:28<andythenorth>unexpected end of file due to missing '}\
05:30<@peter1138>easiest solution: remove andythenorth
05:30<andythenorth>rm andythenorth
05:30<andythenorth>didn't work
05:30<@peter1138>kill -9
05:30<@peter1138>if you're still here then you'll be a zombie
05:31<andythenorth>I have a zombie paster running somewhere
05:31<andythenorth>and a zombie varnish
05:47<Ammler>you have varnish running, is that more as a reverse proxy?
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06:00<andythenorth>it's a performance cache
06:00<andythenorth>although it's running in my local dev environment, where it's not strictly needed :P
06:00<andythenorth>but we do development with most of the stack running, it avoids surprises later
06:01*NGC3982 gives Andy a box of } and \'s
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06:12<andythenorth>can you give me a keyboard where I don't type \ instead of '
06:13<blathijs>andythenorth: Just pry out the \ key
06:14<andythenorth>but then how would I mount smb shares? :P
06:14<TyrHeimdal>use 2 keyboards
06:15<blathijs>andythenorth: Or try this: xmodmap -e "keycode 51 = apostrophe quotedbl apostrophe quotedbl"
06:15<Flygon>I need to stop accidentally taking screenshots
06:15<Flygon>I'm too used to just-in-case saving in SAI... dern muscle memory @.@
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06:20<@Alberth>Flygon: change the key mapping in hotkeys.cfg
06:20<Flygon>Nothing wrong with nostalgic memories
06:21<@Alberth>change it to 'close all windows', and see how fast your muscle memory clears :p
06:21<Flygon>Oh hahaha :p
06:21<andythenorth>change it to shutdown -h now
06:21<Flygon>But I need that memory to not lose SAI fr-
06:21<Flygon>No :p
06:22<andythenorth>remapping 'ls' to 'shutdown -h now' proved to be a funny gag
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06:23<@Alberth>making a file named "*" could be fun too :p
06:23<@Alberth>or a file "-" :)
06:25<MNIM>something tells me naming a file * is not a good idea
06:25<MNIM>or even possible
06:25<Rubidium>Flygon: make a debug build and map ctrl-s to 'crash game'
06:25<MNIM>what the
06:26<MNIM> actually *is* possible
06:26<@Alberth>of course it is
06:26<MNIM>I figured * was one of those unusable characters like ','
06:26<Flygon>You'd be surprised how many people's routines to 'exit' an application are to intentionally crash the program, somehow
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06:50<Flygon>Or, Evening
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07:18<V453000>I would do that too if I found a quicker way than the "standard" exit path
07:19<@Alberth>don't shut down the machine at all :p
07:19<Flygon>Heya drac_boy
07:19<drac_boy>how're you flygon?
07:20<Flygon>I'm decent
07:24<drac_boy>what doing anyway?
07:30<Flygon>Been playing more OpenTTD
07:30<Flygon>Expanded to Italy now
07:30<Flygon>Have yet to bother with Central Europe and Britian
07:36<Flygon>Buuut, yeah
07:37<Flygon>Going from Athens to Rome now
07:37<Flygon>Really really raking in the cash now
07:37<Flygon>Thanks to a combination of really leaning up the locomotives used, and cities finally getting bigger buidlings
07:38<drac_boy>are you still trying to use a lot of expensive trains? :)
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07:39<Flygon>I cut down the need to do that
07:39<Flygon>Currrently have 46 million Euro's
07:40<Flygon>Up from 2 million of last time
07:40<Flygon>It'll be severely cut down when I start upgrading lines to High Speed grade, though, and start investing in High-Speed EMU's...
07:41<__ln__>the apostrophe certainly doesn't belong to "Euros" and not really in "EMUs" either.
07:41<Flygon>My English isn't fantastic, and I lack a European keyboard
07:41<Flygon>I have absolutely no excuse for "EMU's" though
07:42<drac_boy>flygon I would had rather ran some loco hauled coaches by then but thats me :p
07:42<Flygon>Well... good poin
07:43<Flygon>The 2CC set has HSR in both loco and EMU form...
07:43<Flygon>And the distances I have make loco an ideal type anyway (given they have faster speeds earlier on...)
07:43<Flygon>Move over Shinkansen, TGV says Hi :D
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07:43<drac_boy>beside eg BR110 can haul 2 mail and several many coaches .. and still keep respectable speed
07:44<drac_boy>ever better with the newer locos by the 1970's .. either more speed or yet more coaches ;)
07:44<Flygon>BR110? How fast does that go?
07:44<Flygon>I'm in 1955, btw
07:45<drac_boy>of course theres still that Nippon built emu in another trainset grf .. it may only do 120km/h but its a bi-level passenger train so its too easy to be able to crunch 800+ passengers each trip :)
07:45<Flygon>I'm aiming for 230km/h+...
07:45<drac_boy>flygon..hmm about 140-200km/h depending which BR classes it was
07:45<drac_boy>the ICE isn't till the 1990s anyway
07:46<Flygon>320km/h by 1990s
07:46<drac_boy>flygon thats probably a test rather than real train I think
07:46<Flygon>Shame there isn't any 380km/h EMU's, like China have recently used (and then slowed down)
07:46<drac_boy>I still remember one trainset grf some time ago that had the "speed record" special tgv trainset in it .. I thought that was a dumb idea but :-s
07:46<Flygon>Ahh, well
07:47<Flygon>If someone feels like having absurd running costs, braking distance, and taking 120km+ to go to 578km/h, I won't complain :p
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07:47<Flygon>Part of the reason I consider the 400km/h Australian HSR proposal to be dumb, because it's using Iron Rail...
07:48<Flygon>Maglev would brake and accelerate far more easily >_>
07:48<Flygon>And, y'know... be easier to build in the country's only real mountain range
07:49<Flygon>And 320-350km/h really isn't that much slower
07:50<drac_boy>flygon to be rather honest with you I only like midspeed rails and any form of monorails if it came to building transportations for real
07:50<drac_boy>but ;)
07:50<Flygon>Though, the 400km/h type curve radius does make some sense, in that if we do end up with steel wheel trains that ca accelerate faster...
07:50<Flygon>Ah, Australia
07:50<Flygon>We practically live in Medium Speed Rail
07:50<Flygon>Nobody rides it except for Victorians :p
07:50<Flygon>Assuming Medium Speed is 130 to 160km/h
07:51<drac_boy>yeah...basic reason for that is from various costs (and not just money) in a comrpomised balance ;)
07:51<Flygon>XPT in NSW has really bad service frequency and expensive fares, Queenslanders prefer to fly the areas the Tilt Train go (because of the distances involved, same goes for the XPT), and... well, I don't know much about the TransWA Prospector
07:52<Flygon>VLocity only really works in Victoria, because it succeeds in helping transform Melbourne's outer cities into commuter towns :p
07:53<Flygon>Main reason HSR is being suggested for Australia, though, particulary on the Melb-Can-Syd corridoor, is because the air corridoor is becoming full
07:53<Flygon>And Sydney airport has pretty bad curfews...
07:53<drac_boy>if I was to succeed someone for a company one of the many things I would do is to sell off any recent/new locomotives immedately and buy any stored locomotives from somewhere else for the shortterm while I got a new contract out specifying the use of hardy metals and other things
07:53<drac_boy>it doesn't take too much to figure out why I would do that ;)
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07:54<Flygon>And the airports are also at capacity
07:54<Flygon>And Sydneysiders suffer from a huge case of Airport NIMBY :p
07:54<Flygon>You'd love Australia, then
07:54<Flygon>Craploads of cheap 1950s and 1960s locomotives that are both cheap, and work perfectly
07:55<drac_boy>flygon beside the silly thing is.. one particular country have old 2600 (or 2800?) series electric locomotives that were showing thir age but still did a mix of passenger and freight trains daily...
07:55<Flygon>Apart from some models having very had underframe rusting (a few that come to mind, include the Victorian A and B class locomotives... shame, the former have successfully been tested @ 160km/h)
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07:55<Flygon>(not bad for a rebuild 1950s locomotive class from Australia)
07:55<drac_boy>but recently theres only a few of them left usually on peak services .. and guess what? the replacement had more problems with the cold weathers due to their smelly "plastic" metals .... meanwhile the 2800 series were built the old way with hardy metals and everything
07:56<Flygon>What are the specs on the 2600/2800?
07:56<drac_boy>one of the photo caption actually mentioned "were built with more stern metals in them" ... so its not just me who thinks they should had not been retired yet ;)
07:56<Flygon>And if they run on 1500V, we'll build some carriages here, give them to Metro, and get them to shut up about not having enough trains :p
07:57<drac_boy>actually I think it was an AC locomotive .. had train heating lines too
07:57<Flygon>1500V DC, I should elaborate x:
07:57<Flygon>But, yeah, that's something that's happened here, too
07:57<drac_boy>and flygon I'm not going to argue with australia .. as I have mentioned before the alco and baldwin units may be old but they just keep running
07:57<Flygon>Newer trains, in Victoria, anyway, have had more issues than much older ones...
07:58<drac_boy>I still can't get over my head how a baldwin unit could crack its crankshaft and still keep running .. talk about being overbuilt :P
07:58<Flygon>Sounds like Top Gear :p
07:58<drac_boy>yeah crankshaft is in two pieces
07:58<drac_boy>flygon if you forgot I actually mentioned that a mechanic actually stated "if they don't keep leaking oil then theres something wrong with them"
07:59<drac_boy>that goes to show you how comical these old locomotives could be
07:59<Flygon>(in Victoria, the newer X'trapolis EMU trains have mechanical issues, are uncomfortable, and were fitted with high speed suspension to save on costs. Because of braking issues (iirc), they're limited to 90km/h)
07:59<drac_boy>normally no oil leak = its ok .. but for the old baldwin it was the other way around!
08:00<Flygon>(the 1972 era Hitachi trains have been driven over 120km/h safely, have no braking issues, and are near unkillable
08:00<Flygon>(ditto for Comeng)
08:00<Flygon>Wait, what?
08:00<Flygon>Why would no leak be bad
08:00<Flygon>Er, forgot the ?
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08:01<drac_boy>flygon .. its actually the way these silly engines ran .. they'll always leak a bit of oil all the times so .. basically it goes that if they don't leak any oil anymore then theres something wrong with it
08:01<Flygon>So, the oil got clogged? Or it's out?
08:01<drac_boy>something along that line maybe :)
08:02<drac_boy>flygon but either way sometimes an old locomotive actually is kept in service only because its serving a rather small but daily task that would be too costly to get a new locomotive of any sort for in an economical way...
08:02<drac_boy>eg DD15 in japan .. or the "gronk" as people call class 09's in uk ... etc
08:02<drac_boy>these two are rather old .. but they're still kept in service
08:03<Flygon>We do have newer locomotives here that are actually pretty good replacements, but... well
08:03<drac_boy>admittly german also do have their Kof II and III locomotives
08:03<Flygon>A combination of a lack of funds, and no huuuuuge need to replace locomotives (until they begin rusting away to the point of unusability :p)
08:04<drac_boy>the II one is amusing for its quite low height .. but that was intentional so it could be transloaded on a flatcar to be moved to another job site
08:04<drac_boy>they only had low speed chain drive on them anyway
08:04<Flygon>Define low height
08:04<drac_boy>flygon one moment..
08:05<Flygon>Only real 'low' locomotives that come to mind locally would be narrow gauge ones, and the flat-top T-class...
08:06<Flygon> And it's less low, and more "A hell of a cramped cab"
08:07<drac_boy> here
08:07<drac_boy>and when you put it on top of a flatcar .. its roof becomes almost the same height as any normal freight wagons
08:07<Flygon>Oh wow
08:07<Flygon>Is that a tractor?
08:07<drac_boy>the cab is literally more or less "behind" the rear (of two) axles
08:07<drac_boy>thats why the low cab was possible ;)
08:08<Flygon> Reminds me of this... except, yeah
08:08<NGC3982>Why the low height?
08:08<Flygon>He said it was to fit on flat wagons
08:09<drac_boy>flygon it was a compromise...the chain drive left it with a low top speed (which suited shunting works) .. but it was too impraticable to run outside the yard etc ... so it was loaded onto a flatcar to get to the next site
08:10<drac_boy>in short some of them stayed in one spot all the times but others were more of "travelling" shunters as job demanded
08:10<Flygon>It coudln't be towed?
08:10<drac_boy> would still had been stuck at a low speed due to the drivetrain
08:10<Flygon>There's no neutral?
08:10<drac_boy>but on top of a wagon .. its only limited by the freight axles so 60+km/h was easy
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08:18<drac_boy>flygon mind you theres the V100 which was for branchline workings too
08:19<drac_boy>or in both duty there was the V60 .. of course many of the times in passenger workings it used to haul what was nicknamed 'thunderbox' coaches ... because of poor ride :)
08:19<Flygon>What were their specs?
08:21<drac_boy>you could look it up .. just do eg 'V60 diesellok wiki' :)
08:22<Flygon>That was used for passenger trains??
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08:24<Flygon>Then again...
08:24<Flygon>We used to use the Y-class shunter for longer distance passenger trains @.@
08:25<Flygon> It's basically the exact same thing, but heavier, and larger, for no discernable reason :p
08:26<drac_boy>btw I forgot the name of it but japan actually used a small locomotive for some passenger trains ... it looks like a little switcher locomotive but it really isn't used as one :->
08:27<Flygon>That's Japan
08:27<Flygon>They make chibi versions out of everything
08:28<Flygon>You show them a Game Boy Advance and they churn out a Game Boy Micro that 90% of the population's hands can't use :p
08:29<drac_boy>well at the same time the DD15 actually hauls passenger trains .. sometimes even emus themself over unwired routes
08:29<drac_boy>and theres a few specially painted (white with blue strip to be exact) DD15 for a certain train too
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08:32<drac_boy>btw flygon .. japan even had a containers-specialized emu too (bit like the diesel one german made) .. but it soon was rather somewhat underutilized because its easier to ship to a specific dock rather than shipping to some dock .. transload the containers .. then rail it to the other spot which probably is near a dock just as well
08:32<drac_boy>such is japan for being almost all waterfront for major industries after all
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08:33<drac_boy>individual container wagons still survives pretty well tho
08:33*Flygon nod
08:33<Flygon>Yeah, I read up the Japan one
08:33<NGC3982>So tired.
08:33<Flygon>Every Japan image I look at
08:33<Flygon>It freaks me out
08:33<Flygon>Their gauge is so narrow @.@
08:33<Flygon>I had the same problem going to Queensland...
08:34<Flygon>Rail gauge
08:34<drac_boy> think thats narrow? you seriously have not seen 2ft silly
08:34<Flygon>In fact, I kept getting called out over the PA system from the Queensland rail stations, because I kept checking out the rails from the platforms
08:34<Flygon>As it turned out, they have a severe people-jumping-rails problem
08:35<drac_boy>btw in russia there are actually a few places where three gauges meets as unusual as that may be :P
08:35<Flygon> Also, the gauge problem in Australia, represented in image form
08:36<drac_boy>flygon thats a mechanic problem..not track problem :P
08:37<Flygon>Well, technically, it was a track problem
08:37<Flygon>The train accidentally got routed into a narrow gauge track
08:37<Flygon>It's a standard gauge train :B
08:39<drac_boy>btw the russia one ... its a bit funny to watch but its where standard gauge tram meets the usual broad gauge trains ... AND both of these meet the "children railroad" which is narrow gauge (and mostly steamers) tracks
08:39<Flygon>Hahaha, this guy from a forum says it best
08:39<Flygon>"When I grow up, I wanna be a Talgo"
08:39<Flygon>There's too many broad gauges :p
08:39<drac_boy>flygon btw have you ever seen these photos that tried to defy "only one object can occupy the space"? eg two locomotives with one of them on the ballast?
08:39<Flygon>Russian Broad Gauge != Victorian/Irish Broad Gauge :p
08:39<Flygon>Ahh, two locomotives trying to get onto the same track?
08:40<Flygon>It happens here sometimes, in sidings
08:40<drac_boy>flygon I know of two .. one was of a baldwin switcher with one side of its front sitting on ballast with other side rubbing an emd unit ... somehow noone thought the switches were set to conflict
08:41<Flygon>Oh lord
08:41<drac_boy>or another one oversea is a bit too silly... a small yard switcher somehow ran afoul of the signal and when it met the much heavier electric locomotive heading up other leg .. guess what the mechanic actually wrote up in report? "tilt mechanism fault" .. so silly .. the switcher was almost totally on its side
08:41<drac_boy>let me find the link for the latter one .. its online
08:42<Flygon>Tilt mechanism fault?
08:42<Flygon>Was he implying the shunter had a tilt mechanism?
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08:47<drac_boy>ah not quite on its side all the way but here
08:47<drac_boy>don't laugh too much at the mechanic's report of it :P
08:50<Flygon>"...and for a moment there I thought they developed the Diesel Pendolino Freight Switcher. Providing a new pleasure out of taking those low speed curves."
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08:59<drac_boy>and did you see what they named it? Cinderella!
08:59<drac_boy>silly photo of the two of them standing there tho .. even although in reality the accident was not silly :)
09:00<Flygon>I presumed it was called Cinderella beforehand :p
09:02<drac_boy>flygon there was actually another one in magazine ... "poor snapped hammerhead" ....
09:02<Flygon>Another name?
09:03<drac_boy>apparently a Southern SD45 got into a bad derailment that left it with a permament hump in the middle that the only thing doneable to it back in the yard was to mark it off for scrap. they had a long chassis aside to radiator flares which gave them the resemblence of a hammershark anyway
09:03<drac_boy> heres one looking at you ... you can see the flares on top
09:04<drac_boy> ignore the logo in middle .. but thats the way they almost always ran....long hood forward :)
09:04<drac_boy>so yeah for one of these (remember that they had a thick metal chassis) to end up with a big hump in middle ... that was one difficult writeoff indeed
09:05<Flygon>Russia scares me :p
09:05<Flygon>If something crashes here, chances are... it just becomes a flying brick
09:06<Flygon>Or just... kinda gets hit
09:06<drac_boy>flygon btw heres something you may have not heard of before...
09:07<drac_boy>they call these coupled units a cow-calf ... and I'm sure you can guess why without me having to tell you
09:09<drac_boy>or are you stumped? ;)
09:11*drac_boy pokes flygon for a response
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09:14<drac_boy>ic, figures
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09:30*drac_boy pokes flygon to stay
09:31<Flygon>In a very very bad mood now
09:31<Flygon>My ADSL successfully died
09:31<Flygon>And my neighbours are playing obnoxiously loud music @ 12:31AM
09:32<Flygon>We're ringing the police in half-an-hour (if this keeps up), and the ISP if the net is still down by tomorrow morning >__________________>
09:32<drac_boy>heh :-s
09:32<Flygon>On the upside
09:32<Flygon>I lern 2 bluetooth with iPhone
09:33<drac_boy>so anyway flygon .. as I was asking .. you want to figure out why this is called a cow-calf? (the two units together yeah)
09:33<Flygon>The one feature I've had with it that works
09:33<Flygon>Shame I cannot listen to music from YT to drown out neighbours >_>
09:33<Flygon>Gimmie a sec
09:33<Flygon>I'm getting terrible speeds here
09:33<Flygon>And I have a download limit
09:33<Flygon>A headlight
09:33<Flygon>That's a start
09:34<drac_boy>lol :)
09:34<Flygon>Ooh, a radiator
09:34<Flygon>Yellow stripes! Navy blue livery!
09:34<drac_boy>its black actually .. its just the camera
09:34<Flygon>And yet it's not a Victorian Railways locomotive
09:34<Flygon>I'm not sure why it is x3
09:37<drac_boy>so seeing the whole photo yet?
09:38<Flygon>But I don't know why it's called x3
09:38<drac_boy>because...the calf usually is stuck with the cow :P
09:38<drac_boy>the lack of any cab is apparent ;) (abit a few of them did have crude simple controls under one of the flap as to be able to move on their own around the engine shed)
09:39<drac_boy>only one single railroad (Chessie...figures) actually ordered a cow-calf-calf trio ... pretty much everything else new was just a single calf
09:41<Flygon>Soo, it's used purely for added power?
09:41<drac_boy>now for something different if you want the odd left thing is what they call a slug ... because it only has traction motor and some chassis weight but thats it ... it draws off the 'mother' locomotive for power
09:41<Flygon>Those aren't particulary popular here, outside of the XRB class
09:41<drac_boy>they were often used in yards but sometimes could be found on the road too .. it was a case where there was too much hp and too little tractive
09:41<Flygon>But it isn't unusual to see lots of random class locomotives slapped together, and have former streamliners running backwards somewhere in the consist
09:43<drac_boy>or to put it another way.. a 2400hp locomotive may not even be able to use all of that power at low speed without burning out four traction motors .. so solution is to "slug" another four or six more traction motors .. and presto 2400hp powers at least eight or ten traction motors
09:44<drac_boy>some of the road slugs had it made in a way that the motor+slug were kicking in as soon as train starts but at 20-30mph the slug cuts offline to let the locomotive itself have all the speed instead
09:44<Flygon>Why would you design a locomotive like that?
09:44<Flygon>It sounds like terrible engineering
09:44<drac_boy>flygon...its actually smart...
09:44<Flygon>A locomotive that burns itself out accelerating from 0 without assistance?
09:45<drac_boy>or to put it another way... 2400hp to four motors at low speed .. theres a lot of ampres .. and its rather easy to overheat or get a lot of wheelslips ... but 2400hp to eight motors .. its more or less balanced and the engine isn't going to waste disspating lot of electrical heat
09:45<drac_boy>and thats why some of the road slugs cut off at a certain speed .. because by then all the tractive is not really needed
09:46<drac_boy>sorry that I can't really sum it up any better way atm
09:47<drac_boy> are a bit similar in term of the hp issue .. it takes 160hp to start moving but under speed theres little work that its more like 40hp to hold its speed as it is then
09:47<Flygon>So, why didn't they design their locomotives as 8*300hp traction motors, instead of 4*600hp traction motors in the first place... that's what gets me confused
09:48<drac_boy>actually flygon... rigid 4-axle trucks are very uncommon (aside to UP) .. its not good for the curves
09:48<drac_boy>so its better to do four 2-axle trucks
09:48<Flygon>Oh, I see
09:48<Flygon>Victorian Railways here, iirc, liked to use lots of little traction engines...
09:49<drac_boy>flygon even then some of the 6-axle diesels had some problem on certain railroads when they were freshly purchased... they just spread the curve gauges out of place :->
09:49<Flygon>But they also weren't known for having much in the way of horsepower
09:49<Flygon>drac_boy: Can't be as bad as the Russian 4-14-4 locomotive :p
09:49<drac_boy>in at least one case they were banished to only a limited mainline route and/or traded back to the builder almost-new for 4-axle replacements
09:51<drac_boy>flygon btw SF/BN was kinda the last word in road 4-axle diesels .. the GP60 ... they were good for shorter highspeed freights .. but eventually of course it came to be realized that 6-axles were better ... and eventually the GP60 became less numerous but still ran once in a while for some time
09:51<drac_boy>nothing like watching a hotshot train with two SD units being led by one GP60
09:54<Flygon>You get similar things here
09:55<Flygon>With a T-class being in front of some S, A, B, or... pretty much any other locomotive :p
09:55<drac_boy>btw flygon heres something else santa fe was a little bit gusty for ordering brand new passenger power for the late 60's (amtrak was 1971 just so you recall) but the trick was... they were regearable so when passenger trains were retired thse locos could be put to work on freights instead abit usually in the blue/yellow instead of silver/red paintjob
09:55<Flygon>T-class had just 4 axles, iirc...
09:56<drac_boy>so SF got really good uses out of them nevertheless .... BNSF finally retired all of them as their old engine were becoming gas guzzlers tho
09:56<Flygon>Americans? Caring about fuel efficiency?
09:56*Flygon hands on cheeks!
09:56<drac_boy> have to remember that you're comparing the SD45 to something like a modern Dash 9
09:57<drac_boy>fuel mileage was a big difference .. aside to the emission issues
09:57<Flygon>Ahh, hmm
09:58<Flygon>I'm not sure it's as biggerer an issue here...
09:58<Flygon>Half the freight operators here cannot afford new locos anyway
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09:58<drac_boy>flygon this is why theres many small companies in usa nowaday doing conversion of older alco/emd locomotives into modern low-power low-emission things ... what else could cause a GP9 to have its long hood chopped down and a modern cummins 2*700hp genset setup placed inside?
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09:59<drac_boy>basically almost the same power but in a smaller package .. with over half less mileage and emission
09:59*Flygon nod
09:59<Flygon>Of course
09:59<Flygon>We've done such rebuildings of locomotives here too
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10:00<Flygon>eg. the T and B class locomotives got refitted with fresh generators and traction engines in the 80s (they were built in the 50s), and became the P and A class
10:00<Flygon>Ironically, it became cheaper for V/Line to actually build new locomotives (for the A-class specs) because the B/A classes had deteriorating bodies
10:01<drac_boy>ignore the weird cab but this is an older rebuild
10:01<drac_boy>basically they actually used an old F unit .. and put a standard (rather than unibody) body on it
10:01<Flygon>I saw that cab... wow... that is quite an odd design
10:01<Flygon>Ah, I see
10:01<drac_boy>well it worked..there were a fleet of them
10:02<Flygon>So they kept the mechanics... but used a new body?
10:02<drac_boy>and flygon C&NW had their own carbody-to-not-so-carbody rebuilds too .. looked weird tho :)
10:02<drac_boy>actually they had a new engine as well
10:02<Flygon>Ah, right
10:02<Flygon>Sounds like what V/Line will be doing when they retire their remaining A-classes
10:02<Flygon>(shame, the new bodies those parts will go into only drive stably @ 115km/h, not 160km/h...)
10:02<drac_boy>flygon of course engine rebuilds was a much older thing .. sometimes it was done out of reliability issues or other times it was an attempt to get more power without a new locomotive...
10:03<drac_boy>for the former its not too much of a surprise that certain alco RS units actually got emd powerplants in them .. was a bit of a letdown tho
10:03<Flygon>Not much improvement
10:03<Flygon>Er, ?
10:03<drac_boy>but for the latter ... well ... what else can you do when you rebuild a fairbanks-morse road switcher with a V12 GM engine in place of the old FM 8-cylinder that was in there
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10:04<drac_boy>but of course that rebuild was only a short term catchup .. a few years later the road ordered some massive alco locomotives (think 3000+hp with a long 6-axle chassis)
10:04<Flygon>Send some to V/Line, they could use them :D
10:06<drac_boy>flygon btw it actually happens but if you're on the trackside and see a freight train with three locomotives going by but you only can hear two engines ... its not you....
10:06<drac_boy>some money-prune railroads actually gutted their old diesel locomotives and board up the cabs then added some lead weight inside ... homemade slug units ;)
10:06<drac_boy>even CSX did it too before
10:07<Flygon>Here, if a locomotive is quiet, it's because it probably broke it's traction motors :p
10:07<Flygon>It's really not uncommon to see smoke coming out of an operational locomotive...
10:08<Flygon>They're apperantly very noisy when giving out that much smoke. Probably why they're shut down. :p
10:08<Flygon>That, and sometimes they actually do catch on fire
10:09<Flygon>Not a good look when you consider that many were built in the same 1950s that had Victorian Railways using asbestos for insulation
10:09<drac_boy>heres something for you
10:09<drac_boy>its not just carbody diesels that had B units ... even the geeps had them too :p
10:10<drac_boy>that is a GP9B there
10:11<Flygon> An Australian style unit, btw
10:11<drac_boy>they could come in various formations too .. even GP30-GP30B-GP30B-GP30 in a few cases on BN
10:11<Flygon> With cab
10:11<drac_boy>almost like a "modern' FA-B-B-A lashup ;)
10:12<drac_boy>heh yeah there we go with the xrb561 :p
10:12<drac_boy>and btw that cement train .. looks like a ge uboat to me?
10:12<Flygon>ge uboat?
10:12<Flygon>Not a clue
10:12<Flygon>"Pacific National operated train consisting of Victorian X class locomotive X31 and cement hopper wagons, at Grovedale, Victoria, Australia"
10:13<drac_boy>well they were named 'uboat' for some reason but they have a squashed short nose all the times ... some of them were diesel-hydraulic instead as well
10:13<drac_boy> Pix/U-Boats and Freight at Riverside at Wellesley Farms, MA 7_77Edited.jpg
10:13<Flygon>The X-class is just a giant T-class
10:13<drac_boy>I can see the resemble...aside to the radiator flares
10:13*Flygon loads jpg
10:14<Flygon>I can see the resemblance
10:14<Flygon>But chances are, it's just Victorian Railways basing the design off a T-class, which in turn, did have a similar body to other (1950s) contempary American Diesels
10:15<Flygon> T-class
10:15<drac_boy>btw flygon if you want a good headscratcher .. try this and you'll find out what the 'ice' in the filename actually means :P
10:16<Flygon>Amtrak tested the ICE??????????
10:16<drac_boy>yeah .. and not just that but something from sweden too
10:17<drac_boy>thats an X2000 trainset ... with the usual (at the time) commuter NJ emu unit looking at it
10:17<Flygon>Ah, yes
10:17<Flygon>We've had X2000's in Australia before
10:17<Flygon>New South Wales trialled them
10:18<Flygon>Thing is
10:18<Flygon>The NSW tracks could barely handle 130km/h much of the time, let alone 160km/h (which the XPT was already designed for...)
10:18<Flygon>Also, the X2000 needed the XPT's powercars to actually supply it electricity
10:19<Flygon>Which really, frankly, ruined any point of the X2000 being around here in the first place
10:19<drac_boy>btw flygon this is from sweden too
10:19<Flygon>The X2000 does run off overhead electricity, doesn't it?
10:19<drac_boy>but at least it 'did get somewhere' if not indirectly.... amtrak got emd to build a "home" version of it which turned out to be the now-common AEM7 units
10:19<drac_boy>so all these oversea trials at least did net something
10:19<Flygon>(only places it'd have been worthwhile in 1995 Australia are Queensland (which has narrow gauge rails...) and Victoria's Traralgon line (which got mostly dewired by 2002)...
10:20<Flygon>Ahh, I see
10:20<drac_boy>still wonder what would had actually happened had a version of the ICE trainset been built :p
10:20<drac_boy>but who knows ;)
10:20<Flygon>It'd have been like the New South Welsh X2000
10:20<Flygon>Overpowered in a world that doesn't love it
10:21<drac_boy>the weird thing is.. the AEM7 was usually called 'meatballs' :p
10:21<drac_boy>flygon no idea .. can't figure out why :)
10:22<Flygon>It's more creative than Victorian names for things, I guess...
10:22<Flygon>What's the mystery behind the Silver Train? Do you wonder?
10:22<Flygon>If my net would be faster
10:22<Flygon>I'd stop you wondering
10:22<Flygon>Stupid ADSL being down >_>
10:23<Flygon> Silver Train: We're creative with names!
10:23<drac_boy>flygon let me find a weird photo for you one second ;)
10:24<Flygon>We lost all our imagination by the time we started calling trains "Blue Trains", and "Red Rattlers"
10:24<Flygon>Which might explain why V/Line's trains started magically growing names from the Government (eg. Sprinter, VLocity :p)
10:28<drac_boy>I can't find the actual photo I was thinking of but anyway here .. and for the record .. the coupler does not look weird for canada :P
10:28<drac_boy>the photo I know of was of it in a tour train...behind a leading emd F7 unit :P
10:29<drac_boy>talk about strange occurances indeed
10:29*Flygon waits for loading
10:29<Flygon>That's not a strange connector
10:29<Flygon>We have those on older Victorian trains, iirc
10:30<drac_boy> you not realize LNER != canada
10:30<Flygon> Same coupler, from the looks of it
10:30<Flygon>drac_boy, I live in a state called Victoria
10:31<Flygon>Look it up
10:31<Flygon>We're the size of Poland
10:31<drac_boy>you do have to admit one odd thing tho.. there is a company called "Canada LTD" or something in uk ... weird
10:32<drac_boy>I forgot if thats the full name or not but still
10:32<Flygon>We get companies with Canadian themes here, too
10:32<Flygon>Especially the flag
10:32<Flygon>It must resonate better with us than "USA-that-keeps-dragging-us-into-wars" :p
10:33<drac_boy>lol :p
10:34<Flygon>To clarify
10:34<Flygon>We dislike the US Government, not it's citizens
10:34<drac_boy>flygon I don't recall the name or anything but for a while there was actually a single german-built diesel-hydraulic switcher locomotive running around in montreal on CN (or was that CP?) jobs
10:34<drac_boy>didn't last long tho...especially when it was a lone unit :|
10:36<Flygon>Why was it brough there in the first place?
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10:39<Jacko>i may be a bit of an idiot
10:39<Flygon>Been there
10:39<Flygon>Done that
10:40<Jacko>this seems awkward
10:40<Jacko>what do i do?
10:40<frosch123>try again in #openttdcoop
10:44<drac_boy>no idea flygon
10:44<Flygon>I see
10:45<drac_boy>flygon german themself on the other hand had diesel-hydraulics there and there ... basically all over the place :P
10:45<Flygon>Diesel-Hydralic has never really been popular here...
10:46<Flygon>Only things that really began using it, apart from a one-off shunter series, are the Sprinter and VLocity railcars...
10:46<Flygon>Which is annoying... Diesel-Electric railcars that could be converted to Electric-only'd have made more sense
10:49*drac_boy actually kinda likes diesel-hydraulic
10:51<Flygon>It's limitation is
10:52<Flygon>Is that it's not so easily converted to Electric-only operation :P
10:52<Flygon>That, and V/Line ended up screwing up the VLocity class a bit
10:52<Flygon>Long story short...
10:52<Flygon>Sure, they made the fastest (non-electric-only) train in Australia
10:53<drac_boy>well diesel-electric and pure electric are two different things :P
10:53<Flygon>But they somehow incorporated 2 V12 engines per railcar, Diesel-Hydralic and secondary Diesel/Battery-Electric traction, and... well
10:53<Flygon>It's basically a maintainence nightmare
10:53<Flygon>Only reason more are being made is because it's still cheaper in the economics of style
10:53<drac_boy>diesel-battery? should had just used an alternator off the drive engine instead
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10:53<Flygon>I know they're two very different things
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10:54<Flygon>The traction engine was added, when they found that the VLo's had issues pushing up some of the steeper grades @ 170km/h+ during testing
10:55<Flygon>Must have been seen as the easier option at the time
10:58<LordAro>frosch123: shouldn't DorpsGek be kicking them?
10:59<@Alberth>that's not the task of Dorpsgek :)
11:00<frosch123>dropsgek is lazy, he only does stuff when supervised
11:13<drac_boy>flygon btw theres a few different examples of them but they almost always seem to share the same one thing... truck or bus like vehicle sitting on rails and usually with a manual transmission driving the shaft or chain drive drivetrain ... many of the times they get nicknamed Kangaroo .. since thats what they pretty much do
11:14<drac_boy>hopstart in first .... plop while shift into second .. hop again .... and repeat :)
11:14<Flygon>The VLo are 100% automatic
11:14<drac_boy>usa, africa, etc .. theres at least one example anywhere
11:14<drac_boy>in usa .. it was kinda famous tho .. named Galloping Goose
11:14<Flygon>They basically drive the same way you would the V/Line locomotives, or Metro EMU's, to my understanding
11:15<Flygon>And the gear changes are seamless
11:15<drac_boy>flygon ... and btw the last 'big' Galloping Goose .. was a pain to back up ... its like backing up an actual highway rig .. just without as much side mirror help :P
11:15<Flygon>Didn't they have a rear cab?
11:15<drac_boy>so many of the times they shared the same wye or wooden turntables that a steam locomotive would had
11:16<drac_boy>flygon heres a photo of it
11:17<drac_boy>that was a Parker car body on a 'new' chassis .. with a boxcar-like box behind it
11:17<Flygon>Holy hell
11:17<drac_boy>you can't see it but that one was chain drive to the two middle axles
11:17<Flygon>Looks like a VR Railbus
11:17<Flygon>Guess why it's called a Railbus :p
11:17<drac_boy>and the large cowcatcher is for a good reason..the mountain line always had its share of rock washouts
11:18<drac_boy>aside to cattles on lines
11:18<Flygon> And yes. It was front-wheel drive.
11:18<@Belugas>hello Alberth :)
11:19<drac_boy>btw flygon that same railroad used to have a few steam locomotives nicknamed Mudhen because they were vulcan compound locomotives and hence quite slow to move anywhere .. evntually they were rebuilt to conventional but still the name struck
11:19<Flygon>South Australia had Redhens :B
11:20<drac_boy>flygon and of course there was the "sport" ones only because they had slight larger tires etc for faster passenger trains .. although they helped out on freights just as much as the others
11:20<drac_boy>can't blame IS 'sport' when you think about it ;)
11:20<Flygon>Basically a Diesel powered Red Rattler :p
11:24<drac_boy>btw flygon Luis Obospo,CA 28Jun92.jpg that was the SD40T-2 bought by D&RGW and eventually also SP as well ... and the difference from a SD40 is one major thing...
11:25<drac_boy>you see the humpout in the side behind the cab? thats so it could suck low lying air just below the chassis (rather than from the top as usual) .. so it would be more suited to full load working through long tunnels where hot smoke swirls around near the top of the tunnel bore
11:25<Flygon>I do need to sleep soon, sorry x:
11:25<drac_boy>used to be before the SD40T-2 there was always problem with overheating diesels from emd .. and when ge's uboats did not show the same problem .. emd got busy and eventually made these T-2's as they were known
11:26<drac_boy>when you have seen a heavy freight train leaving a long tunnel and theres all that black smoke clogging the tunnel portal know what it means to be able to suck cooler air lower down in the tunnel :-s
11:27<drac_boy>anyway flygon have a good sleep ok? ;)
11:27<Flygon>I shall
11:27<Flygon>Sorry to cut this off x:
11:28<Flygon>It is 2:30AM
11:28<drac_boy>its only 11:29 here
11:30*drac_boy gets out the coal shovel and whack flygon into bed ;)
11:30<drac_boy>heh heh
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11:51<RavingManiac>Anything new with 1.2.3?
11:54<@planetmaker>yup. the version number
11:54<@planetmaker>and it rhymes with the programme name
11:54<@Alberth>and a new changelog file :)
11:54<@planetmaker>and new developer
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11:55<@planetmaker>but I suggest reading the changelog for an answer to your question, RavingManiac
11:56<@planetmaker>if you go to the download page, you find the changelog adjacent on the rhs of it
12:05<@Yexo>basically: if you now have 1.2.3-RC1 nothing is new, if you have 1.2.2 you'll get 20-ish bugfixes
12:06<Ammler>for me the release looks quite much like a dated release instead a bugfix release :-)
12:07<Ammler>which is bad since you need matching versions for mp
12:10<Ammler>or which bug got you to make a release?
12:16<Ammler>a CVE makes automatically a bugreport for distro maintainer and you need to update, but not sure how package mantinaer handle such updates
12:18<@planetmaker>Ammler, package maintainers don't provide RCs, usually, but stable releases. So it makes well sense to have 1.2.3 released after some testing of the RC
12:18<@Yexo>why is it bad to release 1.2.3 without changes? A lot of servers won't use -RC versions, so to get the last bugfixes to all servers and clients we need to release a new stable release
12:18<Ammler>Yexo: planetmaker not speaking about the RC, I meant the update from 1.2.2 to 1.2.3
12:19<@planetmaker>hu? So you say fixing 20 bugs is not worth a release?
12:19<@planetmaker>or do you mean time-scheduled instead of dated?
12:20<Ammler>planetmaker: yes, it looks like the release was scheduled
12:20<@planetmaker>(look up the meaning of dated: (=altmodisch, ├╝berholt)
12:20<@Yexo>Ammler: a critical bug might trigger an earlier release date, but if no critical bugs turn up, does that mean we shouldn't release a new version with non-critical fixes?
12:20<Ammler>yes, sorry used wrong word
12:20<@Yexo>or rather: what should according to you trigger a new release?
12:20<@planetmaker>Ammler, yes, then of course, it's scheduled. But still a bug-fix release. On a scheduled time
12:20<Ammler>Yexo: i think so, yes, since it looks liek distros don't update without CVE
12:21<Ammler>for 1.2.2 I got a ticket to "resolve"
12:22<@Yexo>Ammler: so if after 1.3 is branched no security vulnerabilities turn up there should not be any 1.3.1 release at all?
12:22<Ammler>does debian update repo have 1.2.3?
12:22<@planetmaker>debian doesn't update revision
12:22<Ammler>Yexo: yep, that would be nice
12:22<@Yexo>meaning users have to wait for small bugfixes over a year for the new 1.4 release?
12:22<@Yexo>that's a really stupid policy
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12:22<@Yexo>not everything resolves around distros
12:23<Ammler>Yexo: or could build also for distros
12:23<@Yexo>you're basically saying: don't release after you've fixed all security issues
12:23<Rubidium>Ammler: debian unstable would, if it weren't in freeze. It's already in experimental though
12:23<Ammler>the issue is just that because there are only minor bugfixes, 1.2.2 won't be updated
12:24<@Yexo>that's not OpenTTD's problem, but the problem of the particular distro that doesn't update
12:24<Ammler>Rubidium: they have "freeze" for the update repo?
12:24<@Yexo>it's not like there is a new release every week or so
12:24<Ammler>Yexo: you know a distro which does?
12:24<Rubidium>Ammler: not a strict freeze, but it's generally easier to push stuff via unstable into testing, so unstable doesn't get many updates either
12:24<Ammler>(except suse :-P
12:25<@Yexo>Ammler: no, but that wasn't the point
12:25<Rubidium>(assuming you mean unstable is the update repo)
12:25<Rubidium>for newer stuff in stable there is backports, however nobody seems to bother adding them there
12:25<@Yexo>it's also a non-issue for everyone playing single-player
12:25<@Yexo>and users of the same repo will still be able to play together
12:25<Ammler>Rubidium: no I mean the security repo or however you get those updates
12:26<Ammler>Rubidium: like the 1.2.2 package
12:26<Rubidium>Debian testing (future stable) does not have 1.2.2
12:26<Rubidium>it has 1.2.1 with the vulnerability fix backported
12:27<Rubidium>(we fix too much in the stable releases/the diff is too big to be reviewed)
12:27<Ammler>well, for debian you have at lest debs on
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12:31<Ammler>couldn't it be possible to have a mp compatible version 1.2 for the whole yeah?
12:32<Ammler>really only backport things which could fullfil that
12:32<Rubidium>just don't release any changes to 1.2
12:32<Rubidium>it'd have left you with a desync for the whole year
12:33<Ammler>well, like debian uses only the cve patch
12:33<Rubidium>those patches are not necesarily MP safe
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12:38<Ammler>maybe instead disallow joining, you could make the know redbox with a message like "You use another version as the server, it could desync\n Join anyway? [yes][no]"
12:40<Ammler>anyway, there are also disadvantages of scheduled releases :-)
12:40<frosch123>just run a server for each version
12:41<frosch123>people also play with 0.6
12:41<frosch123>there is no point in supporting 1.2.1 more than 0.7
12:41<Ammler>hehe, you skipped 1.2.2, why?
12:44<frosch123>there is currently 1 client playing 1.1.3, 1 on 1.2.0, 2 on 1.2.1, about 30 on 1.2.2, 4 on rc1, 9 on nightlies, about 130 on 1.2.3
12:45<frosch123>and that 2 days after the release
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12:45<frosch123>so, why bother about 1.2.x?
12:45<frosch123>there are enough old servers, and everyone plays latest anyway
12:46<@Yexo><Ammler> maybe instead disallow joining, you could make the know redbox with a message like "You use another version as the server, it could desync\n Join anyway? [yes][no]" <- I think you already know how many people would click that away and complain anyway
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12:55<Ammler>frosch123: I wonder if it is worth to update distro with 1.2.3
12:55<Ammler>it seems like no maintainer does that
12:56<Ammler>(because there is no security bug)
12:57<frosch123>well, are you going to package zbase?
12:57<frosch123>there is also the reference brightness change
12:57<Ammler>zbase has no source package, afaik :-)
12:57<frosch123>though i don't know the status of zbase wrt. that
12:58<Ammler>(I wanted to, but it also needs another nml than opengfx)
12:58<frosch123>why? does ogfx not compile with 0.3 ?
12:59<Ammler>no, openttd needs a very exact nml version (md5sum)
12:59<@peter1138>anyone interested in fixing crashed 32bpp vehicles?
12:59<frosch123>Ammler: does it matter?
12:59<frosch123>the md5sum of a baseset is not important, is it?
13:00<Ammler>frosch123: well, openttd downloads opengfx every time you query for updates
13:00<frosch123>well, in that case you do not have to package ogfx at all :p
13:01<Ammler>you need opengfx to start openttd (properly)
13:01<frosch123>not since 1.1 ? or 1,2 ?
13:01<Ammler>well, you need it at least to start openttd offline :-P
13:01<frosch123>exactly, and for offline the md5sum does not matter
13:01<Ammler>(what I meant with "(properly)"
13:03<@Yexo>packaing opengfx is one thing, but that doesn't mean that zbase should be packaged too
13:03<@Yexo>after all, you don't package any AIs or NewGRFs, do you?
13:04<Ammler>yep, but it means you need 2 nml
13:05<frosch123>make a package "openttd-offline-essentials" :)
13:05<frosch123>with ogfx/zbase, osfx (if possible), a few grfs, ais and gs :p
13:05<Ammler>anyway, zbuild is a different topic or does it need 1.2.3?
13:06<frosch123>- Change: [NewGRF] Set the reference brightness of 32bpp mask recolouring to 128 (r24610)
13:06<frosch123>zbase either needs 1.2.3 or < 1.2.3 :p
13:09<Ammler>Yexo: the difference why you package zbase, but not an ai or newgrf is mainly the size
13:09<Ammler>why should a distro package openttd at all?
13:09<frosch123>to show off what nice games they have :p
13:10<@Yexo>so if egrvts gets 32bpp graphics and becomes >100mb you'll start to pack that too?
13:10<Ammler>also there are plans to merge opengfx with zbase
13:10<Ammler>Yexo: does not really matter, does it?
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14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24661 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2012-11-02 18:45:17 UTC)
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 6 changes by arnau
14:45<@DorpsGek>french - 9 changes by glx
14:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 29 changes by telk5093
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14:51*LordAro waves
14:52<andythenorth>new version of NoCarGoal o_O
14:52<@Alberth>hi hi
14:52<andythenorth>can anyone be bothered to set up an MP game though?
14:53<Ammler>you can use #openttdcoop nightly (as always)
14:54<Ammler>he, or did you mean the people? :-)
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14:56<andythenorth>I mean the people :)
14:56<andythenorth>creating an MP game takes about 50 minutes
14:56<@peter1138>need a nice internet
14:56<@peter1138>need a nice interface
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15:16<frosch123>andythenorth: it needs someone to write a website, which gets the stats via the admin port :)
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15:18<Ammler>isn't openttd gui the best gui?
15:18-!-supermop [] has joined #openttd
15:20<supermop>hi all
15:22<@planetmaker>Ammler, maybe. But there's room for improvement
15:22<@planetmaker>hi supermop
15:24<supermop>had to walk up to a hotel lobby in midtown to charge devices!
15:24<andythenorth>now I need to make industry ID defines available to python
15:27<@planetmaker>you're in NYC, supermop ?
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15:27<supermop>i live downtown
15:27<supermop>no power or cell phone reception for some 96 hours now
15:27<@planetmaker>he. I hope you're doing well. Though you hang out in IRC ;-)
15:28<supermop>yep - I walked uptown to get power
15:28<supermop>i have a 4g mobile hotspot but it won't work down where I live
15:32<@planetmaker>let's hope it'll work soon :-)
15:32<supermop>well it's working up here
15:33<@planetmaker>I meant it more in terms of "power also back in your place"
15:33<supermop>ah thanks!
15:34<Ammler>planetmaker: of course, I didn't mean that developing a webgui would be waste of time, just meant the lack is no excuse not to start a game today :-P
15:35<@planetmaker>Ammler, but a web UI for game config would make our server administration much nicer and easier
15:35<@planetmaker>funny how we had that "back in the days", but not now anymore where there's a proper port for that
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15:37<Ammler>I guess, it died together with the newgrf gui
15:38<andythenorth>in FIRS, how can IND_NULL_ID be 0x00, but IND_COAL_MINE also be 0x00 ?
15:39<Ammler>the main issue right now seems to be that all want to make it kinda perfect from start and so start with libs instead just make ugly prototypes ;-)
15:40<@Alberth>the curse of becoming professional :)
15:40<Ammler>another issue is that it is kinda hard to configure saves
15:42<andythenorth>it's the curse of lots of things
15:44<Ammler>someone could have made a openttdtcllib, then we could slowly migrate autopilot ;-)
15:45<andythenorth>"ducktape all the things"
15:46<@planetmaker>ducktape fixes everything. It's just a matter of an appropriate amount
15:48<Ammler>hmm, would the adminport allow better content (bananas) management?
15:48<@planetmaker>possibly, if there's an advanced webinterface
15:49<@peter1138>who what where why when now?
15:49<Ammler>wouldn't that be a 3rd party tool like autopilot etc.?
15:49<@planetmaker>it could be part of the admin-port script
15:50<Ammler>you mean REST?
15:51<Ammler>not sure, why it needs a html interface, what is the issue with the current?
15:51<@peter1138>what interface?
15:51<@planetmaker>what interface is ther currently?
15:52<@planetmaker>how do I configure a new game for the server?
15:52<Ammler>well, that which the existing libs use
15:52<@planetmaker>without doing it locally and then uploading?
15:52<@Yexo>andythenorth: IND_NULL_ID seems unused
15:52<@planetmaker>which existing libs?
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15:52<andythenorth>Yexo: thanks
15:52<@peter1138>do you mean to suggest using the in-game interface to configure a server?
15:52<Ammler>joan at least
15:52<@peter1138>(that would be cool)
15:53<@planetmaker>Ammler, sure you could base it on that. But it's in its current state not suitable to configure a new game
15:53<@Yexo>new filter for the advanced settings gui: "new game settings of server"
15:53<@planetmaker>and then rcon send settings?
15:53<Ammler>so setup new games etc. would need additional code to openttd?
15:54<@Yexo>you can change them via rcon already, so why not?
15:54<Ammler>I thought the lack is outside openttd :-)
15:54<@planetmaker>no. But a library is not a tool I can use. It's a tool for a tool
15:54<@Yexo>alternative would be a new command, but that would need authenticating via some gui first
15:54<@peter1138>not everything, unless that changed
15:54<@planetmaker>And the tool I can use doesn't yet exist, Ammler
15:55<@peter1138>I wonder what different subject Ammler is talking about :-)
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15:55<Ammler>planetmaker: well, the initial question stands, doesn the existing admin inteface support better bananas mangement as the console does?
15:56<Ammler>the only useable useage of the console is to donwload/update all
15:57<Zuu>yea, unless you can contact the uploader to get the content ID :-)
15:57<@peter1138>Yup, Ammler is really on a different planet.
15:58<@planetmaker>Ammler, I think yes. If a proper admin port client would exist which faciliates that. And such client is not in sight at all
15:58<@planetmaker>(and if it weren't feasible, it could be made feasible)
15:59<andythenorth>chicken kiev
16:00<@peter1138>So, about configuring a server easily without manual editing of a config file...
16:01<Ammler>well, editing the config file is kinda useless, you would rather need a editor for saves
16:02<@peter1138>New random maps don't have saves
16:04<Ammler>hmm, maybe a config extracter
16:07<@peter1138>Also, anyone familiar with doing SSL in C? :p
16:08<andythenorth>so the problem I've had with setting up MP games is the rats nest of advanced settings and newgrf parameters
16:08<andythenorth>and getting a viable map
16:08<andythenorth>and a good random choice from the GS
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16:20<@Alberth>andythenorth: in Fish 0.9.2, does a refit also change graphics? eg Maddalena Ferry can carry coal, but it looks weird if it use that boat from the buy menu :)
16:21<andythenorth>changes graphics for some vehicles, in depot
16:21<andythenorth>Maddalena Ferry is carrying coal trucks of course :)
16:21<andythenorth>they're invisible
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16:27<andythenorth>Yexo: what's likely to happen if I have an item(property{}) block that is conditional (wrapped in if{blah}), but a separate item(graphics{}) block that is not conditional?
16:27<andythenorth>will the industry appear on map?
16:27<andythenorth>the action 0 is skipped in that case?
16:27<@Yexo>the property-block is the action 0, the graphics block is the action 3
16:28<@Yexo>I'd have to check the specs, but I think they say that for industries an action 3 should be ignored if no action 0 with the same ID has been encountered
16:28<andythenorth>I can test empirically :)
16:28<@Yexo>"For town buildings, the IDs are the house IDs, and specifying a house ID that haven't been defined before (by setting its property 08) doesn't do anything, but doesn't cause an error, either. Note that you don't necessarily have to assign a set-ID to a house ID, the old TTD sprite of the substitute type will be used if you don't do so. Industry tile IDs work in the same manner. "
16:28<@Yexo>nothing about industries though
16:29<@Yexo>would be best to make sure the item(graphics[])) block was within the same check
16:29<andythenorth>it can be
16:29<andythenorth>it just adds more boilerplate to templates :P
16:29<andythenorth>I don't want to cargo-cult pointless code
16:30<@Yexo>have a look at the firs nfo code someday ;)
16:30<@Yexo> I mean, it's 3.6MB currently
16:31<andythenorth>raw nfo :)
16:31<@Yexo>aren't varaction 2's like 2511 fun?
16:31<andythenorth>yes, fun :)
16:32<andythenorth>I would really like to go back to those
16:32<andythenorth>we should convert back to nfo
16:32<andythenorth>non-conditional graphics block appears to work
16:32<andythenorth>as I understand it, no tiles will be built
16:33<andythenorth>so no tiles will try to chain to action 3
16:34<@Yexo>tiles never chain to the action3 from the industry
16:34<andythenorth>oh, o/c
16:34<andythenorth>I am thinking wrong
16:34<@Yexo>did you check the industry list in-game?
16:34<@Yexo>there might be invalid industries there
16:35*andythenorth checks
16:35<andythenorth>nothing reporting invalid
16:35<andythenorth>I've been using minimap when testing
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16:47<@Alberth>nice one trip almost pays for the entire Oran Freighter :)
16:49<Zuu>Hmm, now next thing is an AI that actually make use of the AI API of NoCarGoal. :-)
16:50<@Alberth> <-- andy
16:50<@Yexo>map looks nice
16:51<@Alberth>bit water-ish :)
16:51<@Yexo>yeah, I usually play with less water
16:51<@Alberth>last time I tried 40% water, today 60% :)
16:52<@Alberth>the nice thing is that it forces you into feeder systems
16:52<andythenorth>water makes you want some kind of YACD-alike ;)
16:55<andythenorth>Alberth: nice map
16:55<andythenorth>good island maps are hard to generate
17:00<andythenorth>I have documented bugger-all of this FIRS python work
17:00<andythenorth>wonder if I'll remember how it works in a few months :P
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17:01<@Yexo>that'll give you a reason in a few months to add another layer on top of the python code :p
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17:02<andythenorth>a layer called "docstrings" :P
17:02<andythenorth>I hope not more abstraction :)
17:02<andythenorth>the abstraction I'm adding scares me
17:02<andythenorth>I distrust abstraction :P
17:02<MNIM>Alberth: wouldn't a train line to the western-most tip of that central island and then a boat connection be more efficient?
17:03<andythenorth>which definition of 'efficient'?
17:04*MNIM shrugs
17:04<MNIM>faster, cheaper apart from the infrastructure, perhaps
17:04<andythenorth>shortest transit time?
17:04<@Alberth>could be, but that island looks kind of filled with industries, so I was trying to keep it a bit free
17:05<MNIM>doesn't seem that way from the map
17:08<@Alberth>, 1951-07-26.sav
17:08<@Alberth>feel free to experiment :)
17:08<andythenorth>trains will always be more efficient
17:08<andythenorth>in my experience
17:09<@Yexo>"Expert settings" should be those settings which usually noone wants to see or change. Examples are "Build on slopes" <- shouldn't we just remove the "Build on slopes" option?
17:10<@planetmaker>from GUI: yes
17:10<@Yexo>I didn't only mean remove from the GUI, but remove completely
17:10<@planetmaker>from config: not sure... does it affect savegames? I guess old saves don't mind... it simply wasn't allowed to build, right?
17:10<@planetmaker>then +1
17:10<@Yexo>that's what I thought
17:11<andythenorth>is there any value to it for people running MP servers?
17:11<andythenorth>and how many arbitrary 'difficulty' settings do MP server owners need to be able to set anyway
17:11<@planetmaker>it's a "difficulty setting". of sorts
17:11<@Alberth>being more ttd compatible? :)
17:12<andythenorth>we're not Apple, right?
17:12<andythenorth>keep it as a config-only item, avoid whining
17:12<andythenorth>conifg has 1 bazillion things that may or may not be esential, but they do no harm
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17:13<@Alberth>you also have to program both cases
17:13*andythenorth would not apply that approach to a newgrf btw
17:13<andythenorth>due to need to program both cases :P
17:15<@Yexo>the settings does "harm" in that it appears in several places in the code, making the code harder to read/maintain
17:16<andythenorth>rm it :)
17:17<andythenorth>why do I hate **kwargs so much?
17:17<andythenorth>there's nothing wrong with it, logically :P
17:30<MNIM>because the very expression itself is one of disgust, hate and dismay.
17:36<andythenorth>ok, so economies are basically working
17:36<andythenorth>I have lots of copy-paste code to do
17:36<andythenorth>and then economies need devising and testing
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17:37<andythenorth>also I need to provide economy support for cargos
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17:39<@Alberth>good night
17:40<andythenorth>moi aussi
17:40<@Alberth>bye andy
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17:58<@planetmaker>good night
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18:10<@Terkhen>good night
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18:58<Industrial>I joined a gaine but wasn't in the company I made, I can't remember the default password that I set. Can I reset this? :X
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19:02<@Yexo>if you know the rcon password for the server you can move yourself to the company and reset the password
19:02<@Yexo>or you can ask the server administrator to do that for you
19:02<@Yexo>other than that: save the game and continue in singleplayer, you can play any company you like via cheats
19:03<@Yexo>for multiplayer there is no way to reset the password of arbitrary companies (other than by server owner), that'd be a gaping security hole
19:03<@Yexo>oh, if it's the default password you can read it back from your own config file
19:04<@Yexo>Industrial: ^^
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19:13<Industrial>got it :X
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19:32<@Yexo>good night
19:33<Eagle_Rainbow>me as well, night everyone!
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20:28<DanMacK>Anyone around?
20:32<__ln__>not me
20:32<__ln__>i'm back from watching movie of the year!
20:32<DanMacK>Which movie?
20:32<__ln__>Dredd 3D
20:33-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
20:33<Flygon>I've yet to see that
20:34<Flygon>I got to see The Prestige on TV last night, however. :P
20:34<__ln__>it's in cinemas for two exactly two days here, exactly once per day.
20:35<Flygon>That's terribly short time period
20:35<__ln__>no shit
20:36<__ln__>it wasn't going to be in cinemas at all here (was considered to be to unpopular, i suppose) but some fans lobbied enough for it.
20:37<Flygon>It's being shown everywhere
20:37<Flygon>Perhaps Superhero films don't rake in dough in Finland?
20:39<__ln__>this one is rated 18, so that may be part of the story. no underage teenagers allowed, and they're probably a big portion of superhero movies' audiences.
20:57<Flygon>Oh dear
20:57<Flygon>I can see the plane tickets to Britian selling well :p
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23:44<Killlman4>Hello, I'm having some problems with openTTD
23:45<Supercheese>how so?
23:45<Killlman4>I'm having trouble joining multiplayer games
23:46<Killlman4>Keeps saying connection lost when trying to join
23:46<Supercheese>Hmm, yeah that is a problem
23:47<Supercheese>Lots of things could be going wrong
23:47<Killlman4>I can join some but not others
23:47<Supercheese>I'm not much of an expert on network issues, unfortunately
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---Logclosed Sat Nov 03 00:00:06 2012