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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-11-03

---Logopened Sat Nov 03 00:00:06 2012
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03:34<andythenorth>is it valid to declare nml industry properties with empty values?
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03:52<@Yexo>no
03:55<andythenorth>I'd better handle that then :)
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04:13<andythenorth>Yexo: numeric ids in hex here are being converted by python to dec when it renders them http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/sprites/nml/global_constants.py
04:13<andythenorth>does that matter?
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04:14<andythenorth>compiles fine, appears to work in game fine
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04:44<andythenorth>Yexo: do you guess there's any (compile) performance difference between (1) declaring more item-property blocks, but not duplicating properties unnecesarily, (2) declaring fewer blocks, but some properties are identical in every block ?
04:49<andythenorth>option 2 probably has larger grf filesize
05:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: why would the number format matter?
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05:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I can't think why it would. The codebase I'm converting from declares them as hex though...wondered if it was significant.
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05:33<andythenorth>lo Alberth
05:33<@Alberth>lo andy
05:35<andythenorth>oops
05:35*andythenorth has had a failure of logic
05:36<andythenorth>wish there was more spec support for disabling an industry
05:36<andythenorth>i.e. a flag
05:36<andythenorth>instead of turning the action 0 on / off with action 7 etc
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05:49<@peter1138>is there a climate availability flag?
05:50<@peter1138>i guess the issue is that to define (a disabled) industry takes up a slot, and there are limited slots
05:50<andythenorth>no climate flag for industries :)
05:50<andythenorth>and yes
05:50<andythenorth>the limited slots makes sense
05:50<andythenorth>ta
05:51*andythenorth back to if() else()
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06:07<andythenorth>anyone want to convert some FIRS industries to economy support?
06:07<andythenorth>literally copy-paste [unless you get a compile fail] :P
06:08*andythenorth has to go to the shops and maintain babies etc
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06:09<andythenorth>arable farm / bauxite mine tell what needs to be done :P
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06:45<DanMacK>Hey all?
06:49<Eagle_Rainbow>hi
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07:21<andythenorth>magic flags can't do any harm, right? :P
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>there's good magic and evil magic
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07:28<andythenorth>lo DanMacK
07:29<andythenorth>nearly all magic is evil
07:29<andythenorth>auto-magic is ok
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07:30<DanMacK>Hey
07:33<Eagle_Rainbow>andythenorth, or even worse, if the automatism fails...
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07:42<andythenorth>hmm
07:43<andythenorth>economies kind of need to be defined in one file
07:43<andythenorth>then anyone can make one
07:43<andythenorth>config file format
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>why not just make a list of industry-identifiers?
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>i mean a python-list
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>and python-identifiers (object references)
07:48<andythenorth>could do yes
07:49<andythenorth>can anyone edit those?
07:49<andythenorth>config files seem to be idiot proof
07:49-!-Simonn [Simon@66.110-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #openttd
07:49<Simonn>sup buddies fellas amigos
07:49<Simonn>http://picpaste.com/pics/upload10-RoepHRaP.1351943387.png
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>and what kind of idiot is your target audience for manually editing and compiling a grf?
07:50<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I don't want to name names :P
07:50<Simonn>http://picpaste.com/pics/upload10-RoepHRaP.1351943387.png !!! everyone look what u think
07:50<Simonn>am I good boy
07:50<andythenorth>actually afaik, no-one has reported modifying FISH
07:50<Simonn>good openttd professional
07:50<andythenorth>and FISH is config file driven
07:54<andythenorth>oh python
07:54<andythenorth>why elif instead of else if
07:55<andythenorth>:P
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>syntax analysis vs. semantical analysis
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>possibly
07:57<andythenorth>less readable :P
07:57<andythenorth>unusual for python
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>it simplifies stuff on the parser/compiler side if you don't reuse reserved words like that- but then that's probably not consistent with other parts of the language
08:00<@Alberth>python would need else:\n if
08:01<dada78641>Simonn: looks very good. Would love to see how you fare with a map that has maximum mountains :)
08:01<dada78641>some of those tunnels at the center bottom are pretty long tho..
08:01<Simonn>fuck maximum mountains I live in Belgium no mountains here
08:01<Simonn>I went for realistic stuff
08:01<dada78641>I live just north of you :)
08:02<dada78641>but I prefer mountains in my maps, love to build with lack of space
08:02<Simonn>tunnels center bottom
08:02<Simonn>lemme check
08:02<Simonn>there are bridges on top of them
08:02<Simonn>tunnels come out for a lil air there
08:02<dada78641>the ones by the factory
08:02<Simonn>I see
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08:02<Simonn>I'll fix that
08:03<Simonn>np
08:03<Simonn>leave it up to simon
08:03<dada78641>cool cool just a suggestion :)
08:03<Simonn>criticism from the north
08:03<Simonn>NMBS on the job
08:03<Simonn>Infrabel doing their thing
08:03<Simonn>np np
08:03<dada78641>hehe
08:03<dada78641>this looks nice tho I never make an ything this efficient
08:08<Simonn>it's big problem that you can't place lights in tunnels
08:08<Simonn>big big problem
08:08<Simonn>also underground stations, direction changes and stuff would be nice
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08:28<andythenorth>meh
08:28<andythenorth>set a prop to turn on auto-magic?
08:28<andythenorth>or set a prop to prevent it being used?
08:28<andythenorth>turning it on is more explicit
08:28<Simonn>turn on auto magic ofc
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09:21*andythenorth uses irc similar to Teddy Bear principle http://compaspascal.blogspot.co.uk/2007/12/teddy-bear-principle-in-programming.html
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09:39*drac_boy shoves flygon into the firebox "by accident"
09:39<drac_boy>heh heh
09:39<Flygon>Y'know
09:39<drac_boy>how're you anyway?
09:39<Flygon>I figured out the only possible way to mix the Victorian railfan community and the demoscene
09:40<Flygon>Make a Sega 32x do a rendition of the Hitachi trains... :B
09:40<Flygon>I'm okay
09:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: interested in helping finish FIRS economies?
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>i'm concerned that i rather trigger a "throw this code out and program it from scratch" event
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09:42<andythenorth>he
09:42<drac_boy>flygon so anyway heres something if you haven't seen it before http://www.mylargescale.com/1stclass/ChrisScott/SP4294atSacramentoCA.jpg
09:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause the prevailing FIRS idiom is 'migrate the existing codebase'
09:42<andythenorth>:P
09:42<andythenorth>this is the 5th or 6th time probably
09:43<drac_boy>route filled with tunnels = problem in smoke getting to cab a lot .... solution: since its oilfired, its simple to install longer fuel pipes with "flipping" the locomotive around so it was cab in front and stack in rear
09:43<drac_boy>worked pretty well since SP owned several of these for a long time
09:43<Flygon>Huh
09:43<Flygon>That makes perfect sense
09:44<Flygon>Wouldn't want to be in a level crossing accident in it, though
09:44<drac_boy>flygon well it was out-open-country route so there were only cursory farm roads
09:45<drac_boy>some of them did work in yards tho...and that was where one problem came up..when they had to run in reverse it was a very long 'blind' sight from the engineer's cab window :-s
09:45<drac_boy>you can imagine how worser it is if its shoving a train backward through a left-branching turnout ... can't see anything
09:46<drac_boy>that was why a lot of the carbody diesels usually liked to have one A units at both ends of any B units .. for the sake of making it easy to run bidirectional
09:47<drac_boy>eg FA-FB-FB wouldn't had been so happy on freight trains but FA-FB-FA was ok nevertheless since it had a cab for both ends
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09:47<slanina1>hello
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09:51<andythenorth>can't figure out if 'economies' is one python file, defining over-rides on cargos / industries
09:51<andythenorth>or if each cargo / industry defines its own over-rides for each economy
09:51<drac_boy>flygon of course there was the thing with Burlington, when they merged into BN there were many F units to cast off but a freight boom reversed that and the remaining got a quick overhaul but still it could be a sight back then to see 8+ F units on one single train making only 40mph :)
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09:52<Flygon>Nature called, sorry
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09:52<drac_boy>it was of course not for long since BN had more ge uboats and the so on order by then
09:52<andythenorth>'central' or 'distributed' for economy config isn't bikeshedding :P
09:53<Flygon>We had the similar issue with cab sighting on our bulldog nose units
09:53<Flygon>When VR was Dieselizing, they ordered two types. S-class, and B-class
09:53<Flygon>S-class were streamlined, B weren't (and had two full cabs)... guess which became much more popular? :p
09:53<drac_boy>heh
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09:54<Flygon>The S-class had a rear cab, but it was very very spartan, and cramped, and uncomfortable
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09:54<Flygon>Not really safe (or aerodynamic) @ over 20-30km/h
09:55<Flygon>S-class in reverse: Unsafe at any speed
09:55<drac_boy>flygon actually some FB units had what was almost an emu-like cab shoved away to one side of the vestibules (basically a folding control desk, a small chair, etc) ... of course that was only used for when the B units had to be moved around shed or was doing a sighted backup move with no wagons in front
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: in CETS, each vehicle says which set it's in.
09:55<andythenorth>I am thinking that's better for 'one and only one place'
09:55<Flygon>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Victorian_Railways_S_class_hostlers_end_cab.jpg Not worth driving from :p
09:56<andythenorth>otherwise for any industry 'what are my properties?' is defined by multiple files
09:56<andythenorth>messy
09:56<Flygon>Ahh
09:56<Flygon>So it was driven outdoors?
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the list of cargos may be automatically derived from the list of industries?
09:56<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: possibly
09:57<andythenorth>I'm just trying to figure out how to get industries to generate a manifest of properties when they're rendered
09:57<drac_boy>flygon no...just inside the body
09:57<Flygon>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Victorian_Railways_S_class_cab.jpg ...is that a kettle-basin on the bottom-right?
09:58<Flygon>Ah, gotcha
09:58<drac_boy>but the switcher Calf units did have exposed hostler controls tho .. so yeah they weren't nice in the winter or during heavy rains
09:58*Flygon nodnod
09:59<Flygon>I can imagine
09:59<Flygon>Open-wall cable cars/trams didn't kick off here for the same reason
09:59<Flygon>Rained a lot
10:00<drac_boy>flygon and which of this is an alco DL-109 http://www.daveswebshop.com/cards/rp1200.jpg usually ran around New England ... and the funny story tho was that on a frozen winter morning the only thing that was certain to start up were these DL-109's! (compared to any other units)
10:00<drac_boy>of course there were never many of these in the first place :/
10:00<Flygon>Oh wow
10:00<Flygon>That looks almost like an S-class
10:00<Flygon>Even the livery choice :p
10:01<Flygon>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Victorian-railways-s-class.jpg In terms of colours, anyway
10:01<Flygon>Why didn't they make more DL-109's?
10:01<drac_boy>and flygon if you want something with a different slant try this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/67/PRR_DR-4-4-15_Sharknose.jpg its a bit of outward slant .. plus more sharper curve to top of the nose too
10:02<Flygon>Oh wow
10:02<drac_boy>many of them eventually were regeared for freights (but some kept their steam generator in case) .. .and if you need to ask .. the odd rod on one side of roof was for an early train radio system of PRR's own
10:02<Flygon>That is... certainly interesting
10:02<Flygon>I'd have said it's a trolleypole :p
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10:03<drac_boy>even PRR's cabooses carried the same early radio setup too .. but of course as soon as the uniform standard radio was introduced PRR dropped theirs
10:03<Flygon>Of course
10:04<drac_boy>flygon and which of this kinda almost looks like a GP9 with its cab roof chopped off I guess heh http://www.american-rails.com/images/CR_RK_E44d.jpg
10:05<Flygon>That is
10:05<drac_boy>there were a decent fleet of them .. owned by different succeeding railroads up to till shortly after amtrak was created (the non-passenger track fee was the main problem ... most of the times it was much cheaper to just use a nearby freight diesel route instead
10:05<Flygon>One of the ugliest locomotives I've ever seen
10:05<Flygon>It looks like the Borg assimilated pantograph technology
10:05<drac_boy>well it was supposed to be a simple basic freight locomotive .. no frills :P
10:06<Flygon>No kidding
10:06<drac_boy>unlike the GG1 with all its streamlinings for an extreme contrast ;)
10:06<Flygon>:p
10:06<drac_boy>btw I think I know of another kind of "ugly" you may do a double take on :P ...
10:07<Flygon>uh oh
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10:13<drac_boy>http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/lsq3-6902.jpg here flygon does THAT grille remind you of the 50's america cars or what? :p
10:13<drac_boy>only a few were ever built...changed hands a lot as obvious by the many paintjobs
10:14<Flygon>Hahaha h wow
10:14<Flygon>I... that is one of the most 50s things I've ever seen
10:14<Flygon>It must be tiny
10:14<drac_boy>and heres something a bit less ugly http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yUWddU2yz4Q/TvjQ7r4bFmI/AAAAAAAABt0/BmSvJG2JkRY/s1600/GMD1.jpg its riding on B-B trucks now but as built they actually had A1A's instead for old branchlines with the provision to be converted into B's in the future which CN certainlly made so
10:15<drac_boy>basically it was to work around the problem of a GP7 being too heavy but a small switcher locomotive not being powerful enough
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10:16<Flygon>Hmm
10:16<Flygon>Seems pretty standard, to be honest
10:16<drac_boy>at least one of them actually worked the remaining freight rails there was on vancouver island (rail ferry connection yeah) ... but now that operating area's all ripped up I think
10:17<Flygon>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/El-zorro-works-train.jpg Resembles this, sorta
10:17<Flygon>And from what you describe, they do the same thing
10:17<Flygon>Shunt
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10:18<drac_boy>and flygon if you want something a bit different http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/news-img/maximum/748.jpg that was from newfoundland when there was still rails going there abit narrow gauge. it did dieselize for a while (with comical GP-look-alike locos) but finally shutted down for good due to better roads&boats
10:18<drac_boy>even PEI island actually had a spider web of rails too (standard gauge I think? I forgot) but now theres absolutely nothing
10:18<Flygon>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/V56_ARHS.jpg ...this thing must be shorter than it is tall
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10:19<drac_boy>so yeah basically the only rail service to the east coast is just the VIA train heading to halifax or the few freight routes around Nova Scotia and New Brunswick areas
10:19<andythenorth>someone define a FIRS basic economy?
10:19<Flygon>What's so strange about the steam locomotive?
10:19<andythenorth>give me a list of included cargos and industries?
10:20<andythenorth>I need a test case to code against
10:20<drac_boy>flygon sometimes it happens that a small locomotive uses a vertical inline engine .. and keeps wide walkways for shunting crews to stand on .. so it gives them a skinny-n-tall look
10:21<Flygon>Ehh
10:21<Flygon>All they did was whack a 40hp tractor engine in
10:21<Flygon>I can only assume, myself, that they wanted something quick-n-dirty
10:22<drac_boy>flygon which of if you want something that was a bit taller than usual try these http://ghostdepot.com/rg/images/rolling/locomotive/4000 locomotive krauss-maffei 1962 pc.jpg I'm sure the extra height was to fit the hydraulic systems underneath the diesel engine while still retaining the fuel tanks as is
10:22<Flygon>http://www.gunzelgallery.hobbiesplus.com.au/RTL0322.JPG ...Australia's trucking culture knows o bounds
10:22<drac_boy>SP owned a few of them for some time .. but I think they just were not so reliable especially for an unique small group among emd and ge diesels otherwise
10:23<andythenorth>brandt
10:23<Flygon>They don't seem tooo tall x3
10:23<drac_boy>that was the only one locomotive this krauss-maffei company ever built :|
10:23<drac_boy>flygon well compared to a normal GP9 they were noticeably higher but mm
10:24<drac_boy>flygon but either way I think you still remember the Kof II little locomotive I showed you last time of course ;)
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10:24<Flygon>Hmm
10:24<Flygon>I see
10:25<drac_boy>that reminds me...
10:26<drac_boy>heres a 2ft lima shay .. as-built and in its new private ownership life with a better steel cab http://www.shaylocomotives.com/data/shay3354/cn-3118.jpg
10:27<drac_boy>and yes .. the headlight is as big as the boiler I know :P
10:27<Flygon>That's a spiffing looking restoration
10:28<drac_boy>well flygon the easy thing is... just chunk in one piece of wood..check water injector...sit there for a while looking at the scenary .. then chunk another small piece of wood in
10:28<drac_boy>such is the very tiny firebox :P
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10:28<Flygon>Heh
10:29<drac_boy>and the coal fired ones .. just use a flour scoop to fire it :)
10:29<Flygon>xD
10:29<Flygon>Soo, what
10:29<drac_boy>flygon this is what happens when you get into 2ft gauge .. everything is slow but yet at the same time lazy :P
10:29<Flygon>Bring the train up to Coles, and buy a bag of flour?
10:29<drac_boy>rofl
10:29<burtybob>Is there a way to prevent cargo building up at a station that PREVIOUSLY had a vehicle capable of carrying it?
10:29<andythenorth>HEQS trams are 2ft gauge ish :P
10:30<andythenorth>burtybob: bulldoze the station
10:30<drac_boy>andythenorth well they have to share the street so thats understandable tho ;)
10:30<burtybob>That the only way? I've got other vehicles delivering to it :/
10:30<andythenorth>let entropy take its course
10:31<MNIM>unfortunately it means lower station ratings...
10:31<drac_boy>flygon btw don't know if you know these kind of locomotives but they were called Forney and were very common on some narrow gauge lines with generious curves http://www.railarchive.com/rlsteam/edav8.jpg it was a rigid chassis ofc
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10:32<drac_boy>basically 0-4-4T but sometimes there were others too..even 0-6-2T just as well
10:32<burtybob>Damn, you'd think that there would be a way for the game to see that there are no longer vehicles able to carry the cargo stop it building up :/
10:32<drac_boy>and yeah I know it does almost look like a seperate loco+tender .. but its really one long rigid chassis there indeed
10:32<Flygon>Ahh
10:33<Flygon>Sounds like something Queensland would use
10:33<Flygon>They're up there with Japan in the art of "Squeezing that dead narrow gauge lemon dry"
10:33<drac_boy>flygon I never could understand some of the uk steam locomotives tho
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10:34<Flygon>Also, regarding the tram tracks in OpenTTD
10:34<Flygon>They really bug me :p
10:34<drac_boy>especially when they have a 0-4-4T that really have two big drive axles squashed up front and the truck is supporting most of the firebox/cab weight ... not exactly putting its full weight onto the drive axles. I always wondered why they were not able to just use 0-6-0T terrier's
10:34<drac_boy>at least some other uk locomotives I can make sense of
10:34<Flygon>Melbourne trams are 1435mm gauge, and have had 1600mm in the past, it's basically the same as the rail network
10:34<Flygon>And the trams are getting pretty wide :p
10:35<Flygon>It's the Brits
10:35<Flygon>They're not known for being sensible
10:35<andythenorth>yeah
10:35<Flygon>Let's face it, anyone that colonizes Australia is nuts
10:35<andythenorth>we didn't invent standard guage
10:35<andythenorth>gauge *
10:35<andythenorth>that was a continental import
10:36<drac_boy>flygon heh well at least I like these http://farm1.static.flickr.com/77/217515569_94805e32d0.jpg thats an Ivatt mogul .. kinda the right balance of boiler size to the tires used .. it doesn't look big or small either
10:36<drac_boy>they could use a bit better tender tho
10:37-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4A94.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
10:37<Flygon>The world should have adopted Brunel gauge D:
10:38<drac_boy>flygon and of course I still can't help wondering why these little saddletank 0-4-0T are always called Pugs .... ? 0_o
10:38<Flygon>Pug
10:38<Flygon>Perhaps it looked... Pug-like?
10:38<Flygon>It's a very British term...
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10:39<drac_boy>flygon mind you in at least one case the shorty 0-4-0T in usa were called duck ... because thats what they do ... only two drive axles spaced close together combined with the piston thrusts at any speed = wallop wallop wallop :)
10:40<drac_boy>it goes to explain why 2-coupled locomotives were rather rare without any sort of pony or trailing axles on them
10:40<Flygon>Heh
10:40<drac_boy>especially the Atlantics
10:40<Flygon>Coupling multiple steam locomotives here was reasonably common on longer lines
10:40<Flygon>Even of different classes
10:40<drac_boy>and which of flygon I'm not too surprised that usa and uk managed to use the same name .. Atlantic
10:43<drac_boy>of course flygon there was one famous Atlantic locomotive over here....this http://bowser-trains.com/holocos/e6/e6_01.jpg
10:44<Flygon>What an interesting wheel arrangement
10:44<drac_boy>one of these actually took a photographer's special (it had a baggage converted into darkroom) .. and the famous thing was... since the photo of the newyork>paris flight could be developed enroute (unlike the other press companies which used planes) it was the first one to run in the papers :)
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10:45<drac_boy>did 100+mph in some places
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10:46<drac_boy>flygon I could be wrong but I think it suited PRR for a long time till heavier longer trains finally demanded more driveaxles...as after all the pony axles were only guiding and the trailing axle was just floating . leaving most of the traction weight over the two huge axles
10:47<drac_boy>this was what replaced many of the E6's .. still more or less the same go-fast design http://recollectionsofplay.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/prr-train.jpg :p
10:48<drac_boy>of course you could find many photos of the K4 and GG1 standing next to each others which made sense when you considered that the electrification didn't quite go all the way corridor-wise
10:51<drac_boy>flygon on a different topic heres something a bit rare for canada: http://www.railarchive.net/randomsteam/images/cpr5932.jpg 5-coupled powers .. of course most of the times they were working the BC lines which is understandable with the mountains in the way
10:51<Flygon>Sorry about my delays
10:51<Flygon>I was writing a wall-of-text PM
10:52<Flygon>I have some life outside of railroading :p
10:52<drac_boy>CN only had the usual 4-coupled powers instead but then again CN and CP always had different ideas on steam locomotive types tho ... only one of these two even had any 4-4-4's anyway :)
10:52*Flygon nod
10:52<drac_boy>and this is it http://www.talismancoins.com/catalog/CPR_Jubilee_Locomotive_Railroad_Train_3003.jpg
10:53<andythenorth>planetmaker Terkhen Yexo can you recall why FIRS has a cargo table?
10:53<andythenorth>afaict, industry grfs don't need a cargo table
10:54<drac_boy>flygon btw if you didn't know...a long time ago it was normal to see a NYC train in canada once in a while .. whether passenger or old slow freight ;)
10:54<Flygon>Define NYC train
10:54<andythenorth>maybe it's used for some other feature, such as cargo payment rate adjustment?
10:54<drac_boy>even the old street map for Ottawa actually marks one of the rail line as NYC :p
10:54<Flygon>Do you mean subway? Or interurban?
10:55<drac_boy>flygon this silly ;) http://rlv.zcache.com/usa_new_york_central_emd_e8_passenger_diesel_card-p137984100807272874b7xyi_400.jpg
10:55<drac_boy>heh heh
10:55<Flygon>Ahh, gotcha
10:55<drac_boy>of course theres still that one route through detriot toward sasketchwan for certain CP grain trains .. instead of heading through winnipeg .. I dunno why
10:57<drac_boy>flygon anyway about uk .. I still wish I could know what would had happened had not the post-breechaxe bought on a stipution for to only build diesel-electrics alone or something like that
10:57<drac_boy>these diesel-hydraulics they had were rather interesting .. even if I sometimes still can't understand their nicknames (Hymek? whats that?!)
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10:59<andythenorth>wikipedia will tell you
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10:59<Flygon>Hymek?
10:59<Flygon>What an...
10:59<drac_boy>flygon thats what they were named
10:59<Flygon>Interesting name
11:02<drac_boy>flygon of course nothing would match the one single new locomotive design that could had been except for a single problem: it was steam powered which kinda flew in the face of politics who only wanted diesels
11:02<Flygon>Heh
11:02<Flygon>Here, you build/rebuild a steam locomotive
11:02<Flygon>It gets record patronage :D
11:03<Flygon>eg. a recent R-class tour ended up with 8+ carriages (the line has a normal capacity of just 6... the Swan Hill train has warnings because it can go over 6 carriages, and it tends to be longer than platforms...)
11:06<drac_boy>flygon here it is: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/SR_Leader_05.jpg/300px-SR_Leader_05.jpg
11:06<drac_boy>looks a bit like a normal diesel? well here's the thing .. its really a 0-6-6-0T steam :->
11:07<drac_boy>thats why the large chassis clearances
11:07<Flygon>Is it oil fired?
11:07<drac_boy>coal actually
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11:08<drac_boy>heres a bit more http://www.semgonline.com/steam/leader_01.html
11:09<Flygon>Huh
11:09<Flygon>If it was oil...
11:09<Flygon>I'd have assumed MU compatibility with Diesel
11:10<Flygon>(interestingly, something the R-class here have actually done)
11:10<drac_boy>flygon of course there was this in usa too http://loco.skyrocket.de/img/nw_te1_2300e.jpg coal turbine (so the tender is apparent anyway)
11:10<Flygon>(they did it as both a "Oh crap we ran out of water" rescue method, and for faster acceleration and more horsepower if they need it)
11:10<drac_boy>had the usual problem with early technology like everyone else tho...coal dust on the turbine blades
11:10<drac_boy>finally it was sidelined for good..then soon hauled like dead boxcars to a scrapper
11:11<Flygon>Coal turbines doesn't really work for locomotives anyway...
11:11<drac_boy>well with pulverized clean coal nowaday it might had been more reliable idea but mm yeah
11:12<Flygon>I mean
11:12<drac_boy>flygon heres something that had a better life tho: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_up_x1.jpg the first two were the turbine and a small hostler diesel engin
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11:12<Flygon>Yeah
11:12<drac_boy>and the tender is...obvious the third thing ;)
11:12<drac_boy>they lasted a long time till finally Bunker C was not so cheap anymore
11:13<Flygon>I'd have assumed that was a gas turbine locomotive
11:13<drac_boy>the small diesel engine was just to make it a lot easier to move them dead especially through the servicing tracks
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11:13<Flygon>Of course
11:14<drac_boy>flygon mind you tho..UP at first placed their turbines in general pool but soon after many noise complains relocated them to the bare flatlands where there was almost no population to hear these turbines which were by then running at full pitch with the long right of way in front of them :)
11:15<drac_boy>and that photo there pretty much shows ... its nothing but just rolling hills as the turbine is running at full spool with the freight train ;)
11:16<Flygon>Sounds like it would have been useful for Australia
11:16<Flygon>Was there enough fuel capacity to last 1000km in one trip?
11:16<Flygon>If so
11:16<drac_boy>flygon of course there were these http://www.hebners.net/amtrak/amtTurbos/amt159c.jpg which actually ran through populated areas .. they must had really used some big silencers on the turbine exhaust or something I suspect :-s
11:16<Flygon>Would have fit the Melbourne-Adelaide train perfectly. Goes through not many populated areas, has a (relatively) high speed track, and provides a nice intercapitol service
11:16<drac_boy>one slight silly thing about them tho was...their exhaust pretty much smelled like french fries ... i dunno how true that is
11:17<Flygon>Looks like a flatfaced ICE
11:17<drac_boy>btw flygon .. for australia .. just replace the steam-like oil tender with a large 6-axles high capacity fuel tank car .. and I'm sure that'll fix the problem :p
11:18<Flygon>Probably
11:18<drac_boy>flygon and about you mentioning diesel-electric the other time before....
11:20<drac_boy>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/EMD_FL-9_NYC_2013.jpg thats a B-A1A unit .. and the little red label just below the cab door is for the third shoe pickup wire ... they were electro-diesel in a manner
11:21<drac_boy>after all at least one of the major station had a smoke emission ban so ... the FL9 was a compromise on that .. run like a F7 everywhere else but switch to third shoe pickup with its diesel engine at idle to access these tunnelled stations
11:21<drac_boy>they replaced a lot of the crummy expensive electric boxcab + road diesel locomotive swaps and duplicating crews so .. it was worth it after all ;)
11:22<Flygon>Heh
11:22<Flygon>That makes sense ^^
11:23<drac_boy>yeah .. its the only dual-mode locomotive I know of in usa anyway .. although oversea theres like tons of examples of them in various forms tho :)
11:23<@Yexo>good afternoon
11:24<andythenorth>lo Yexo
11:24<Flygon>We lack dual mode here
11:24<drac_boy>I forgot which class it was but uk actually had one of these older emu that actually was dual-mode as in either third rail pickup or overhead pantograph .. as I can recall it was something to do with most of the route being overhead wire except for at least one tunnel which had too much clearance restriction to make it work and so was third railed instead
11:24<drac_boy>I think it was like 3xx or something .. anyone from uk know which one I'm thinking of
11:24<Flygon>I know the Eurostar was dual mode
11:24<Flygon>Because the old route used 750V 3rd rail in the UK
11:25<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_319
11:25<drac_boy>flygon btw it was a bit too conventional that one of the station the emu had to stop at was exactly where the switchover took place .. so ... yeah train comes to stop .. doors open .. then you see the pantographs dropping .. then the door closes .. and emu rushes into the tunnel :)
11:25<drac_boy>no need for an on-fly switchover
11:26<drac_boy>ah thanks andythenorth
11:27<Flygon>Hmm
11:27<Flygon>Dual-mode would only be useful for urban tunnels here...
11:27<Flygon>Except, the voltage is only 1500V DC
11:27<Flygon>And the substations are very weak
11:27<drac_boy>flygon if you want to confuse your own brain on voltages ... just take a quick look at the london underground rails .. four of them in fact .. and at least one of these is negative too :P
11:27<Flygon>Locomotives would blow them up
11:28<Flygon>So if a train is ever accidentally routed into a tunnel?
11:28<Flygon>You go very very slowly :B
11:28<Flygon>Don't wanna deafen everyone!
11:29<drac_boy>flygon didn't we talk about old verus new locomotive? well one of the problem is related to "softwares"...
11:29<drac_boy>the new one always want to shut down as soon as the overhead voltage sags .. then cool off a bit before trying energize again ... makes things difficult if its slippery rails >_<
11:30<drac_boy>but the old one without a cpu more or less .. they could not care if 25VAC was actually only 22VAC .. they'll just keep turning the traction motors
11:30<Flygon>Heh
11:30<Flygon>Same here
11:31<drac_boy>of course theres always a limit for sure...you don't want to try draw a 1500DC power at less than 900
11:31<Flygon>Much of Victoria's electrical fleet has very very old tech
11:31<Flygon>On both trams and trains
11:31<Flygon>I wouldn't be surprised to see tram routes going from 400V to 800-900V
11:31<Flygon>Norminal voltage is 600V
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11:32<drac_boy>flygon btw on one of the Milwaukee mountain section it used to be trains were timetabled more or less so one was coasting downhill with full regenerative braking .. which was feeding back into the overhead line for that guzzling unit on other side grinding uphill
11:32<drac_boy>not very common for that sort of 'electrical' timetabing to happen
11:33<supermop>ok have power
11:33<Flygon>Heh
11:33<Flygon>Makes sense
11:33<Flygon>Listen, I gotta be a bit busy, sorry x:
11:33<drac_boy>flygon it makes sense tho.. because THESE were the locomotives in question http://content.lib.washington.edu/cgi-bin/getimage.exe?CISOROOT=/imlswrvm&CISOPTR=180&DMSCALE=100.00000&DMWIDTH=802&DMHEIGHT=498.74375&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=&REC=1&DMTHUMB=0&DMROTATE=0
11:34<drac_boy>sometimes had two of them on one train so that was 16 traction motors ... lot of juice :)
11:34<drac_boy>anyway flygon I need to start lunch soon anyway so I think I'll just go now
11:34<drac_boy>see you another time ok? :)
11:35<Flygon>Have fun
11:35<Flygon>Yep
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11:39<LordAro>afternnons
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11:44<supermop>yo
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12:25<DanMacK>Hey all
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12:36<supermop>hi dan
12:39<DanMacK>Hey
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12:41<supermop>how's it going?
12:41<supermop>drawing boats
12:41<supermop>?
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12:45<DanMacK>Occasionally
12:45<DanMacK>May start some early industry versions for firs soon
12:46<DanMacK>And I want to do some sailing ships for FISH
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12:47<DanMacK>I like starting really early for some reason
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13:00<supermop>neat
13:00<supermop>oops
13:01<NGC3982>Evening.
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13:57<LordAro>ssh is awesome :)
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14:02<NGC3982>Indeed.
14:02<andythenorth>:o
14:02<andythenorth>my cargo template script worked first time I ran it
14:02<andythenorth>unheard of :P
14:02<NGC3982>:D
14:03<LordAro>dat feel.
14:07<andythenorth>meh
14:07<andythenorth>I hate creating dicts of dicts
14:08<andythenorth>messy
14:09<LordAro>but sometimes necessary
14:11<andythenorth>hmm
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14:56*NGC3982 notes Andys love for small Volvo trucks on FIRS industries.
14:57<andythenorth>?
14:57<NGC3982>They are everywhere
14:57<NGC3982>http://www.hobby4u.se/images/13486.jpg
14:57<NGC3982>:D
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14:58<andythenorth>oh loaders
14:58<andythenorth>and cranes
14:58<NGC3982>Indeed
14:58<NGC3982>They are nice
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14:58<NGC3982>That's why i also love CHIPS
14:59<NGC3982>andythenorth: I was thinking; Can the number of tiles (Read: The size of the industry) be changed during gameplay?
14:59<andythenorth>no
14:59<NGC3982>It would be cool to see industries "expand" together with production.
15:00<NGC3982>I guess one could make a tileset that's transparent at first.
15:02<Supercheese>Yeah, you'd have to "reserve" a bunch of plain tiles around the industry first
15:02<NGC3982>Yeah, that's not neat.
15:02<Supercheese>and then change those industry tiles to buildings/whatever as time progresses
15:02<NGC3982>Or: Yeah, that might not be neat.
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15:03<NGC3982>Supercheese: Time, or production.
15:03<Supercheese>well, production increase usually requires time increase ;)
15:03<Supercheese>but yeah
15:03<NGC3982>You think to little of quantum processes!
15:03<NGC3982>:P
15:05<Supercheese>Hmmm, do industry tiles even have access to the production_level variable?
15:06<andythenorth>yes
15:06<andythenorth>tiles can access most things
15:06<Supercheese>Then yeah, the "reserved" plain tiles upgrading to buildings/stuff based on production_level would probably work
15:06*NGC3982 thinks of crazy ass graphics.
15:06<Supercheese>or hell, the base industry itself could all upgrade
15:07<NGC3982>Supercheese: Indeed.
15:07<NGC3982>Though, reserved tiles around an empty industry sounds less fun.
15:08<Supercheese>Yeah, they'd need to be obviously fenced or something
15:08<Supercheese>telling the user "ya can't build here buddy"
15:08<supermop>NGC3982 and Supercheese; use fields
15:08<NGC3982>Higgs fields?
15:08<supermop>i know there are issues with fields
15:09<supermop>but if there could be various sprites and sizes, fields would work
15:09<supermop>that way you could also cut through the non-core parts of an industry at high cost
15:09<supermop>just like with farms
15:09<NGC3982>Uhm, allright.
15:09<NGC3982>Tell me more of this fields thingy.
15:09<Supercheese>I think there can only be one kind of farm field...
15:10<supermop>cow pastures and forests would be an obvious choice
15:10<supermop>Supercheese: currently i believe yes
15:10<NGC3982>To ignore game mechanics, using a similar system like town growth would be kind of cool, i guess.
15:10<NGC3982>Wich does seem to check if a tile is empty or not.
15:10<NGC3982>If it's empty and production rises, use the tile.
15:10<supermop>but you could also say small fields at a steel mill
15:11<NGC3982>But i guess that's a wee bit away from logical game mechanics.
15:11<Supercheese>yeah, I'd prefer to work within existing specs
15:11<supermop>imagine the furnace is a like the barn, and the stacks of steel are small little fields
15:11<andythenorth>search forums
15:11<andythenorth>frosch123 had at least one patch for this
15:11<andythenorth>there was a version of FIRS for it
15:11<andythenorth>doesn't work
15:12<Supercheese>oh?
15:12<supermop>however even a low production farm covers the same area with fields as a high production one, so you wouldn't get growth with production
15:12<Supercheese>Oh ya: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=59657#p774227
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15:12<andythenorth>http://www.tt-foundry.com/misc/fields_2.png
15:13<andythenorth>http://www.tt-foundry.com/misc/fields_3.png
15:13<andythenorth>http://www.tt-foundry.com/misc/fields.png
15:13<andythenorth>arbitrary blocks of fields
15:13<Supercheese>no control over size/placement of fields?
15:13<NGC3982>Ooh
15:13<andythenorth>yes control
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15:14*Supercheese is still reading through the thread
15:14<supermop>i also thought specialized towns would be cool
15:14<Supercheese>doesn't TaI have specialized towns?
15:15<andythenorth>yes
15:15<supermop>these would have to be much more specialized
15:16<supermop>with an industry being a town
15:16*NGC3982 thinks about making his first industry NewGRF a FIRS add-on.
15:16<NGC3982>A Ninja Industry. Deliver everything to it.
15:16<supermop>a town of that type only builds houses that are industry related tiles or buildings
15:16<andythenorth>NGC3982: I present to you the spec: 3 input cargos
15:17<supermop>with its input cargoes being its town growth cargoes
15:17*NGC3982 takes a peak.
15:17<NGC3982>andythenorth: Oh wait, what.
15:18<Supercheese>Hey, we needed that mountain. Don't take it! ;)
15:18*NGC3982 actually thought Andy was refering to a parameter.
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15:35<@planetmaker>good evening
15:35<Supercheese>(variable_1 > varaiable_2) should evaluate to 0 or 1, no?
15:36<@planetmaker>if > is a comparator and not an operator, yes
15:37<@planetmaker>At work I write in a language where x > y means to set all x to the value of y of x is greater than y
15:38<@planetmaker>s/of/if/g
15:38<Supercheese>Well, in NML 'tis a comparison operator
15:38<Supercheese>pretty sure I just had my logic backwards, as usual -_-
15:40<andythenorth>lo planetmaker
15:40<@planetmaker>hey andythenorth :-)
15:41<@planetmaker>andythenorth, wrt your question (much) earlier: does a CTT help to not fix cargos to a cargo slot but keep that more flexible? (Probably not... )
15:41<andythenorth>don't think so, the cargo action 0 has the label anyway
15:42-!-cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-211.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
15:46<Supercheese>Hmmm, either I'm doing something horribly wrong, or (age_in_days >= max_age_in_days) is not evaluating to zero or one...
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15:49<drac_boy>hi
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16:25<@Terkhen>hello
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16:28<@planetmaker>hi Terkhen
16:29<DanMacK>Hello all
16:31<@planetmaker>hi DanMacK
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16:52<kero>planetmaker : I have a question, if you can
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16:53<kero>i'm trying to change the introduction dates of the buildings in TTRS, but I can't find any documentation about long format dates. http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Houses doestn tell anything about it
16:54<kero>so, where is it possible to find that kind of info ?
16:55<kero>(I ask you because I've seen that you where involved in the renewal of this grf, but if somebody else can tell, I would be grateful :)
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16:57<@planetmaker>kero, it has not a separate description, but it's there in the overview table. Properties 0x21 and 0x22
16:57<@planetmaker>same link as you gave
16:58<@planetmaker>generally in nfo specs: always look at the table. It nearly always has entries only found there
16:58<@planetmaker>as their explanation needs not more than fits there
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16:58<kero>ok, thank you
16:58<kero>in case I use property 0x21, should I also use the 0x22 together ?
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16:59*Alberth guesses you need to use them together
17:00<kero>i'll make a try anyway
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17:06<@planetmaker>makes sense to use them, yes
17:07<@planetmaker>kero, what's your plan for building introduction dates?
17:07<@planetmaker>wanna fix the introduction date of buildings so that the earliest ones are introduced at the same date (that'll be useful)?
17:07<@planetmaker>then please send me a patch (or add it to the issue tracker of ttrs).
17:07<kero>not all exactly at the same date, but mostly
17:07<@planetmaker>should then become a new version thereof
17:08<@planetmaker>kero, the earliest should be *exactly* at the same date
17:08<kero>the idea is to retrieve all the bulding 1920-> before until 1850
17:08<kero>except 2/3, like the firehouse
17:08<kero>I already tried with one
17:08<kero>the churche
17:08<@planetmaker>as when you introduce them all at the same time, they all will be available from *any* date prior to that
17:08<kero>yes, but for some of them it's incoherent :)
17:08<@planetmaker>if one building is the earliest alone *only* that will be available at times prior to its introduction
17:09<@planetmaker>(if people want to play earlier than the set defines)
17:09<kero>these one and the other GFX houses
17:09<kero>I just tried
17:09<@planetmaker>the code unfortunately is fugly nfo, de-compiled... :S
17:10<kero>take the case: i just changed only one house, the church. I started in 1920, and I had all the OpenGFX + the church
17:10<kero>so, i will take but nearly all
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17:10<kero>yes, the code is hard to read
17:11<kero>planetmaker : I will be happy to share the changed code
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17:13<kero>(if I succeed in that mess)
17:13<@planetmaker>you know http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ttrs, yes?
17:13<kero>yes sure
17:13<@planetmaker>k :-)
17:13<@planetmaker>yes, mess is the proper description
17:14<@planetmaker>I can't say that my (and foobar's) additions are anything else than a hack to remove the industry component when FIRS is around ;-)
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like my hack of alpine :)
17:16<@planetmaker>similar, yes. But I was allowed to release it :-P
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>well, the copyright law allows you to release modifications "for compatibility with other programs"
17:17<kero>Still, I have a question :p
17:17<kero>nforenum gives me : Unexpected EOF: Unused CargoIDs detected for feature 7.
17:17<kero>means that it didn't check the file entirely ?
17:18<@planetmaker>which nforenum version?
17:18<kero>(the error is not related to my change, apparently)
17:18<kero>well, the one which comes with the last grfcodec
17:18<kero>(6.1 ?)
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17:18<@planetmaker>and no, it only means there's unused cargoIDs.
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>"the last" is not a version
17:19<kero>6.0.1
17:19<@planetmaker>well, yes, I get that error, too
17:19<@planetmaker>on unchanged repository
17:19<kero>actually, I'm working on the last nightly that I decompiled
17:19<@planetmaker>de-compiled?
17:20<kero>(nightly-42)
17:20<@planetmaker>why de-compile?
17:20<kero>because initially I wasn't sure about how to work with the source
17:20<@planetmaker>get mercurial and get a checkout ;-)
17:20<kero>well those are things I still need to learn :-)
17:21<@planetmaker>hm, yes. it's some learning curve, granted :-)
17:21<@planetmaker>what OS do you run?
17:21<kero>linux
17:21<@planetmaker>ah, then it's easy :-)
17:21<kero>i guess, yes
17:22<@planetmaker>apt-get install mercurial
17:22<@planetmaker>apt-get install gcc
17:22<kero>pacman -S, actually :-)
17:22<@planetmaker>apt-get install grfcodec
17:22<@planetmaker>or whatever your distro's package manger is called :-)
17:22<@planetmaker>(and package names may vary, too)
17:22<kero>grfcodec is in the debian packages ? oO
17:22<@planetmaker>yes
17:23<@planetmaker>most linux distros have it
17:23<@planetmaker>maybe openttd-grfcodec
17:23<@planetmaker>suse (+co). debian, redhet + derivatives, all have it
17:23<kero>oh yes there is a build for Archlinux
17:24<kero>but unsupported
17:24<kero>doesn't matter
17:24<@planetmaker>you'll also need awk, make, sed... but that's pretty standard
17:25<kero>for now, I just took the -linux version on the openttd mirrors
17:25<kero>it's a statically compiled version ?
17:25<@planetmaker>that's fine. And likely more up to date ;-) Yes
17:25<kero>well, it will do the job
17:26<@planetmaker>I have anyway a checkout of all those repos and a symlind from /usr/bin to the binary in that repo ;-)
17:26<@planetmaker>*symlink
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17:27<@planetmaker>kero, if you got mercurial and a clone of the repo, a simple call of 'make' in the repo directory itself then should build the newgrf
17:27<kero>that's what I already did with the 3.13 source
17:27<kero>but
17:28<kero>i had a great great lot of warnings
17:28<kero>not just some
17:28<kero>but thousands
17:28<@planetmaker>eh?
17:28<kero>so I wans't sure I was doing it correctly
17:28<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1881/ is what it looks for me
17:28<kero>yes, un unarchived the source, launched the "make" from the directory
17:29<@planetmaker>with nforenum / grfcodec r945
17:29<@planetmaker>oh... from the tar ball?
17:29<kero>wait
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17:30<kero>wait
17:30<kero>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/ttrs/releases/LATEST/ttrs3w-3.13-source.tar.gz
17:30<kero>that's the link
17:30<@planetmaker>ah... I guess I didn't try the source tar ball for ages...
17:31<@planetmaker>install mercurial and get the versioned source. also easier to provide patches then :-)
17:31<kero>I used. I untarzipped the think, made the "make", but i got thousands of warnings
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17:31<kero>ok, I'll try that
17:31<@planetmaker>and easier to revert or to keep different test patches which somewhat work
17:32<@planetmaker>you won't regret getting used to a version control system :-)
17:32<kero>I don't doubt about it
17:32<kero>but I never found really time to hack seriously, so I never took time to watch that better
17:33<@planetmaker>:-) vcs save time when you try to hack anything ;-)
17:33<kero>you can do the kjob with mercurial or git indifferently on the repositories ?
17:33<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/jZVox.png
17:33<kero>or are those utils related to a specific structure of the vcs
17:33<@planetmaker>kjob?
17:34<NGC3982>Are these types of ships realistic for sand or stone shipping?
17:34<kero>s/kjob/job/ :)
17:34<Nat_aS>Hey, anybody here using Ubuntu 12.04?
17:34<Nat_aS>I just updated to 11, and I don't like unity
17:34<Nat_aS>12 lets you switch back right?
17:34<@planetmaker>:) well, the answer is a clear yes and no
17:34<@planetmaker>it's easiest to use the vcs which the repository is from
17:34<kero>ok
17:35<@planetmaker>both mercurial and git have some extensions which allow to use repos from other VCS. But it has - of course - some limits
17:35<@planetmaker>as all data need be converted on the fly when pulling info. And possibly when pushing back
17:38<kero>ok, no more so much warnings with the new source :-)
17:38<@planetmaker>but please tell me, which warnings /errors did you get when building from tar bundle?
17:38<@planetmaker>hm, interesting :-)
17:38<@planetmaker>as I get the same output when building from the tar bundle as I get from mercurial repo
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17:41<@planetmaker>and seeing r42 of ttrs... that might be worth a release on its own... it fixes already the early house issue I mentioned initially... I wasn't aware (anymore) that foobar fixed that. at least somewhat
17:41<@planetmaker>that said, I absolutely don't mind if someone (like you) wants to have a closer look at things... this set is worth it
17:42<@planetmaker>(otherwise I wouldn't have touched de-compiled nfo code anyway ;-) )
17:43<kero>:)
17:44<kero>I love that set and I love starting early.
17:44<kero>So ...
17:44<@planetmaker>:-)
17:44<@planetmaker>kero, try whether your issue is solved with r42 actually before you spend too much time
17:44<kero>anyway, I wanted discover a little bit how grf are since a lot of time
17:45<kero>I will
17:45<@planetmaker>it might fix at least part of your issue
17:45<kero>I'm not gonna change all before I know the change works
17:45<kero>ah, that you mean
17:45<kero>I already checked
17:45<@planetmaker>and r42 is nowhere else except in the repo and as nightly on the devzone's bundle server
17:45<kero>it don't
17:45<@planetmaker>ok
17:46<@planetmaker>I was thinking that it *might* be worth to completely re-code the set in NML
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17:46<@planetmaker>if you plan to do many changes, it might be even easier and faster, looking at mid-term or long-term results
17:48<kero>It would certainly. I don't like specially that simili-assembler
17:48<@Yexo>would be nice to have a house project done in NML too :)
17:49<kero>Oh, I still have a question. grf2html helped me a lot. is it possible to use it on any local project ?
17:49<@Yexo>sure
17:50<@planetmaker>kero, while I can't do that currently myself due to time constraints (the nml re-code), I would certainly be happy to give advice, if you'd tackle it
17:50<frosch123>it only works on nml 0.2 generated files though
17:50-!-chester_ [~chester@95-25-189-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:50<frosch123>unless you take a route over grfcodec to convert it into a container 1 grf
17:50<kero>planetmaker : thank you
17:50<kero>I find that NML project extremely interesting
17:51<kero>I think it could potentially bring a lot of people to coding more
17:51<@planetmaker>I'm sure others, like yexo, will similarily be happy to be of help with advice :-)
17:51<@Yexo>yep :)
17:51<@planetmaker>kero, which is... the point of it :-)
17:51<@planetmaker>I can't thank yexo enough for it :-)
17:52<kero>it was a big bog work i guess
17:52<kero>rha
17:52<@planetmaker>it still is. It's not finished
17:52<kero>apparently I should sleep more
17:52<kero>"big" :)
17:52<@planetmaker>it's missing stations and bridge support
17:52<kero>is it possible, for instance, to decompile with it something like ttrs to start a recoding ?
17:53<@planetmaker>unfortunately not
17:53<@planetmaker>except maybe by special request... there might be some de-compile patch somewhere. But the results are not exactly nicely documented code either (and how could it ever be)?
17:53<kero>ok, so your next big poject, is a sort of nfo2nml utility :-)
17:55<@planetmaker>no. rather grf2nml. But next big rather is finishing support for all features in nml ;-)
17:57<kero>good job anyway
18:04<andythenorth>this is ugly, but is it wrong? http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/1882/
18:04<andythenorth>Alberth: ^
18:05<@Alberth>what does it complain about?
18:05<NGC3982>Doesn't look that ugly?
18:05<andythenorth>Alberth: complains about nothing, works perfectly :)
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>why not simply use "alcohol.cargo" in the code?
18:06<andythenorth>that was the alternative...
18:06<andythenorth>looked a bit odd
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's not wrong and not ugly, but ... strange
18:06<@Alberth>oh, so it's not wrong in the usual way :)
18:07<andythenorth>no just weird
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_weird_or_just_different.html
18:08<@Alberth>the only thing you can see as 'wrong' is that "from cargos.food" is not a cargo, but something that has a cargo
18:08<andythenorth>yes
18:09<@Alberth>you may want to rename to "cargos.food_description" or so, depending on how much you don't like your current solution
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: maybe you should consider the automatically-add-to-list-in-constructor idea to avoid things like this
18:10<@Alberth>ugh
18:10<andythenorth>he
18:10<andythenorth>alberth made me take that out :)
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>i still don't know why :=)
18:11<andythenorth>this is less weird, apart from line 42 http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1883/
18:11<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: I laughed.
18:12<andythenorth>the weirdness is that I have cargo.cargo :P
18:12<andythenorth>because I can't be bothered to rename some objects when copy-pasting
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: map(lambda x: x.cargo, [...]) :p
18:12<@Alberth>yeah, you have some naming problem
18:13<andythenorth>laziness
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>s/x/module/g
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18:14<andythenorth>oh well
18:14<andythenorth>it works
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what makes me itch is that you list every cargo multiple times to get to that list
18:15<andythenorth>yeah
18:15<andythenorth>I dislike that strongly
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>twice in the import, then once again in the list. not even speaking about the definition in the original modules
18:15<andythenorth>there is another way I could do it
18:15<andythenorth>the industries don't bother with any of that
18:16<andythenorth>one import causes them to be rendered, no more work needed
18:16<@planetmaker>kero, I found grf2nml output: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/c6244bcc8cd0/entry/sprites/firs.pnml
18:17<@Yexo>wrong link?
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>firs was converted from NFO to NML
18:18<@planetmaker>Yexo, wrong?
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>it's just missing context
18:18<kero>that's more readable
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18:19<@planetmaker>Yexo, kero asked for whether there's a grf2nml tool. I answered "not (yet), but..." ;-)
18:19<kero>I have an error, trying to build the ttrs from cvs-sources: http://pastebin.com/EWC2MsUh
18:19*andythenorth considers something horrible and global :P
18:20<kero>well a such file is a good basics to start with :)
18:20<@planetmaker>what's the output of python --version
18:20<kero>instead of rewriting an entire code
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18:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: compromise, don't add to the list in the constructor, but explicitly add to the list in the cargo modules
18:21<@Yexo>planetmaker: I misread, I rad "grf2html" output, sorry
18:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how do I do that without making the list global?
18:22<andythenorth>it's what I want to do :P
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18:22<@planetmaker>I'm not exactly sure how you ended up there, kero ...
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>create the list in cargos/__init__.py?
18:23<andythenorth>ah
18:24<kero>planetmaker : that's just the directory where i did the hg clone http://hg.etcetc/ttrs
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>kero: python version?
18:26<@planetmaker>python 2.5 ... 2.7 is only acceptable, I guess
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>it's the kind of error i'd expect from trying to run python2 code in python3
18:26<NGC3982>What's up with changing keyboard layout in Windows and stable 1.2.2?
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>or python < 2.x
18:26<NGC3982>If i change the layout (using alt+shift to Swedish from English), the game ignores it.
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: the keyboard layout is in the language file
18:27<NGC3982>I could change it from Swedish to English, but not back?
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>(the OSD keyboard, that is)
18:27<@Yexo>NGC3982: does restarting openttd help?
18:27<andythenorth>defined cargo_list in __init__.py
18:27<andythenorth>can't get it into (e.g.) alcohol.py
18:28<andythenorth>do I need to explicitly import it?
18:28<NGC3982>Yexo: Ill try it.
18:28<kero>Eddi|zuHause : I have 2.7 and 3.3
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you have imports in __init__, do make the list before those, then import __init__ in the cargo modules
18:28<NGC3982>Yexo: It worked.
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>kero: my guess is that it tries 3.3 by default, when it should use 2.7
18:29<kero>Eddi|zuHause : supposing it tries to use python 3.3 instead of 2.7, could be a probnlem ?
18:29<kero>ok :)
18:29<kero>will have to search for that
18:29<andythenorth>hmm
18:29<andythenorth>I think I have to sleep on this :P
18:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: if you want to patch it, feel free ;)
18:29<andythenorth>it works fine, but it's ugly
18:30<NGC3982>Yexo: Kind of confusing, though. If i re-create the problem, it's all the same.
18:31<@Yexo>did the english->swedish change work while openttd was running?
18:31<NGC3982>Yes, it did. Everything except OpenTTD responded correctly to it.
18:32<andythenorth>good night
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18:32<@Yexo>you could try switching from sdl to the win32 video driver or the other way around
18:33<kero>Eddi|zuHause : thank you for finding the problem. I have no problem using the version 2.7
18:33<NGC3982>Yexo: Me?
18:33<@Yexo>NGC3982: yes
18:34*NGC3982 needs to google a bit to deduce what that ment.
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: the -v option to openttd.exe
18:35<@Yexo>in the openttd config file thers is an option videodriver
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>possibly needs a recompile
18:35<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
18:35<NGC3982>This can actually be related to a video driver?
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>openttd -h should list the video drivers
18:36<@Yexo>the video driver also handles input
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>"video driver" is a very loose term in openttd's code
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>it used to run the actual game loop, not sure if that is solved meanwhile
18:36<@Yexo>if it works with the win32 video driver but not with sdl, the bug could be in sdl and not in our code, if it's the other way around we probably miss code to support it
18:37<NGC3982>I see.
18:37<NGC3982>What is SDL?
18:37<@Yexo>Simple DirectMedia Layer
18:38<@Yexo>it's a framework that can be used on many OSes which provides API calls for opening windows, drawing in them etc.
18:38<NGC3982>Ok
18:38<NGC3982>And i guess that is the default usage
18:38<NGC3982>Thingy..
18:38<@Yexo>I'm not sure what the default is under windows
18:38<NGC3982>Ill try.
18:41<NGC3982>When using the Command line help, it tells me i'm using a Win32 GDI Driver, a Dedicated Video Driver and a Null Video Driver
18:41<@Yexo>ok,thanks for testing
18:41<NGC3982>I guess i should start the game with "-v win32"?
18:41<@Yexo>I had hoped SDL would be available, but apparently not
18:42<@Yexo>NGC3982: no, that's default
18:42<@Terkhen>to my knowledge on windows win32 is the default
18:42<NGC3982>I see. Would SDL be the default if it was installed?
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18:42<@Yexo>the dedicated video driver is meant for dedicated servers, so won't actually get a gui at all. The null video driver does even less, it just runs the game locally for some time
18:42<andythenorth>hmm, this is kind of same problem as I have for FIRS http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3078927/python-how-to-access-variable-declared-in-parent-module
18:42<@Yexo>it's not a question of installation, it needs to be compiled into the executable
18:43<andythenorth>glob.glob() is rooted to location makefile runs from though
18:43<NGC3982>Yexo: Hm, i see. Is there any other way for me to test this?
18:43<NGC3982>If it needs to be tested, that is.
18:43*andythenorth should sleep, babies will wake me up soon :P
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18:43<@Yexo>not easily, but it's not that important to test it now
18:43<NGC3982>By the way: "AIAI (v87): Automatic Idiot AI Version iota (87)."
18:43<NGC3982>German humour is german,
18:43<@Yexo>if you can reproduce it every time you could open a bug report at bugs.openttd.org to make sure it doesn't get forgotten
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18:54<@Terkhen>good night
18:57<NGC3982>Yexo: Ill make sure to add it.
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19:08<NGC3982>Yexo: I have found the error.
19:08<NGC3982>And it's not OpenTTD related.
19:09<NGC3982>After (oddly enough) killing Explorer.exe and starting it again, changing layout with OpenTTD active works.
19:09<NGC3982>:E
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19:24-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
19:24*Flygon shovels drac_boy
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19:47*drac_boy chunks flygon into the firebox as if it was just lumps of coal
19:48<drac_boy>HEH how're you?
19:48*Flygon ends up pushed up through the various pipes of the engine, and is stuck in the vent of the main chimeny
19:49*Flygon is stick
19:49<Flygon>stuck*
19:49<Flygon>Heya
19:49<drac_boy>heh heh
19:51<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: so you haven't actually found the error, it just doesn't occur anymore
19:51<drac_boy>how're you mr.late-in-australia?
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19:57<Flygon>It's 10:56AM Sunday
19:57<Flygon>I'm okay
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20:42<drac_boy>what doing then anyway flygon?
20:42<Flygon>Prolly gonna take a shower, then work on comissions
20:42<Flygon>Well, commision, anyway
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20:45<drac_boy>:)
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20:52*drac_boy gives flygon a paintbrush
20:55<Flygon>Actually, I cel-shade :p
20:57<drac_boy>heh
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 04 00:00:09 2012