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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-11-04

---Logopened Sun Nov 04 00:00:09 2012
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01:23<Dr_Tan>fuck canonical
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03:04<andythenorth>sorted the python madness
03:05<andythenorth>register cargos automatically into a list in the cargos module
03:05<andythenorth>via cargos/__init__.py
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03:54<@Terkhen>good morning
04:01<@peter1138>hmm, my cpu cores keep switching between 6x and 9x multiplier
04:01<@peter1138>and power saving is, in theory, turned off
04:15-!-Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
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04:16<@planetmaker>good morning
04:17<andythenorth>hmm
04:17<andythenorth>I could import these industry and cargo classes into a WSGI app
04:18<andythenorth>"Economy Maker"
04:19<andythenorth>Alberth: I fixed most of last night's madness :)
04:19<andythenorth>there's a bit of auto-magic
04:20<@Alberth>moin andythenorth, planetmaker
04:21<@planetmaker>:-)
04:21<@Terkhen>hi guys :P
04:21<@Alberth>o/
04:22<Flygon>Evening
04:22<andythenorth>everyone's here
04:22<andythenorth>shall we put the band back together? :P
04:25<andythenorth>is it worth cleaning up FIRS repo structure?
04:25<andythenorth>some of the names are a bit wrong
04:25<andythenorth>e.g. 'sprites/' instead of 'src/'
04:26<@planetmaker>a simple hg mv should do the trick. the makefile would need telling about it, though
04:27<andythenorth>is it worth it?
04:27<andythenorth>I like tidiness :)
04:27<V453000>order for the weak! :P
04:28<@planetmaker>Makefile.config:12 is the line
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04:30<@Alberth>I never understood the "sprites" directory for storing source code
04:31<@planetmaker>legacy, Alberth
04:31<andythenorth>grfcodec
04:31<@planetmaker>grfcodec -d file.grf
04:31<andythenorth>hmm
04:31<andythenorth>turns out there are a few uses of 'sprites' in the python code
04:31<@Alberth>grfcodec is soo 90's man :p
04:31<andythenorth>it should probably get some var from makefile
04:31<andythenorth>for path
04:31<andythenorth>but meh
04:32<@Alberth>planetmaker: yeah, I consider grfcodec seriously broken in that respect
04:32<@planetmaker>so grfcodec should de-compile to src instead of sprites?
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04:33<@Alberth>it should give me the choice of where I want to put things, instead of forcing "sprites/*"
04:34<@Alberth>moin Zuu
04:34<@planetmaker>hi zuu
04:34<Zuu>Hello
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04:36*andythenorth has made the src/ change
04:37<@planetmaker>I changed it for OpenGFX like 12 months ago or so. It works... but needs care with paths so that building and relative inclusion doesn't break
04:37<andythenorth>compiles here
04:37<andythenorth>let's see if bundles breaks
04:41<@planetmaker>doesn't break
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05:01<LordAro>mornings
05:03<@Terkhen>hi Zuu and LordAro
05:03<Zuu>Hello Terkhen
05:03<Zuu>and LordAro :-)
05:03<LordAro>hey Zuu and Terkhen :-)
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05:31*LordAro is unhappy with his distro again...
05:31<LordAro>what distros do you chaps run?
05:31*andythenorth runs the stupid one
05:32*Rubidium runs the toy one
05:32*Zuu run debian but only without X
05:32<andythenorth>the fun part for andythenorth is, having no choice eliminates any possibility of having to spend time choosing
05:32<LordAro>gonna need some real names :P (apart from andy, that's obvious :P)
05:33*Eddi|zuHause runs the german one
05:34<andythenorth>run windows
05:34<andythenorth>make your life easier
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>http://i.imgur.com/6QJOe.jpg
05:35<LordAro>^ top gear ftw :)
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>it's actually stupid, because it's only like 500km
05:36<@peter1138>yeah that's not that far
05:36<LordAro>shh!
05:36<andythenorth>hmm
05:36<andythenorth>political correctness ftw
05:36<@peter1138>unless they're saying the car's a tank
05:37<@peter1138>guess it's a war 'joke'
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>that's pretty fair to assume :)
05:38<andythenorth>visit stalingrad; it's lovely in winter
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>the worst one i know: "My grandfather died in Auschwitz!" ... "He tripped and fell from the guard tower!"
05:42<LordAro>it's surprisingly awkward when Germans make War jokes... :L
05:47<LordAro>nifty little picture: http://blog.admin-linux.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/infographic_debian_history-en-v081.png
05:51<Flygon>When an Australian makes a war joke, nothing special happens
05:53<Flygon>I can think of no good war jokes
05:53<Flygon>I can kill IRC channels, however :B
05:56<LordAro>:P
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06:00<NGC3982>LordAro: Seriosly, they named it after Toy Story characters?
06:00<LordAro>apparently :)
06:01<NGC3982>How fun.
06:01<NGC3982>:D
06:01<Rubidium>only for the last like two decades
06:01<@peter1138>thought everyone knew that
06:02<LordAro>Debian really is ancient
06:02<Rubidium>s/ancient/well matured/
06:03<Rubidium>or... so bleeding edge that it has patches for years that gcc hasn't accepted yet
06:03<NGC3982>Peter: I rarely use Linux at all.
06:03<NGC3982>Oh wait
06:03<@planetmaker>Rubidium, how that?
06:03<NGC3982>Yes, what i said
06:03<NGC3982>BSD != Linux, right?
06:03<Rubidium>Linux is only a the kernel
06:04<NGC3982>I was for a long time under the impression that BSD was a distro, like Ubuntu or Fedora or something.
06:04<Rubidium>planetmaker: multiarch; installing multiple architectures of the same package and (basically) natively cross-compiling
06:04<Rubidium>NGC3982: for Debian you can choose for a Linux, BSD or Hurd kernel
06:05<@planetmaker>ah, interesting. thanks
06:05<NGC3982>Rubidium: Ooh.
06:05<NGC3982>Rubidium: I need to learn the correct terminology.
06:05<NGC3982>I only use Linux when i IRC (on the shell).
06:06<@planetmaker>BSD ∩ OSX != ∅
06:06<NGC3982>Watz.
06:06<Rubidium>planetmaker: I'd argue if you replace OSX with Windows it still holds
06:06<@planetmaker>I'll not argue against ;-)
06:07<@planetmaker>I don't expect an empty set with linux either
06:12<Ammler>LordAro: which distro do you use now and why are you unhappy with?
06:13<NGC3982>By the way
06:13<NGC3982>My girlfriend works in the train business, here in Sweden.
06:13<NGC3982>One of the new drivers had just started working after his year long education
06:14<NGC3982>And yesterday, hit a suicide candidate after two weeks at work
06:14<NGC3982>And cannot work again for six months.
06:14<NGC3982>..
06:15<Ammler>LordAro: instead switching to another, you could also help to improve the current
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06:26<xand>is there a way to tell buses to not avoid (by detouring) stations that aren't on their Orders list?
06:26<xand>other than specifically telling them to go there
06:27<@planetmaker>that's difficult, if there are other ways which have a lower pathfinder cost
06:27<@planetmaker>but if you know they should visit station XY, you could as well tell them, no?
06:28<xand>going through the station is the most direct route... and given vehicle can have "implicit" orders I wonder why it avoids the stations to take a longer route?
06:28<@planetmaker>xand, but stations themselves as other vehicles are a penalty in the route
06:28<@planetmaker>(stations can be blocked. other vehicles are blocks)
06:29<xand>it needs a GPS system to know where the other vehicles are ;)
06:29<@planetmaker>they do know ;-)
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06:30<xand>then it should know there's no blockage
06:30<xand>I guess it's not easy
06:31<@planetmaker>station itself is a penalty. As going through could mean blocking other vehicles who want to go there ;-)
06:32<Zuu>xand: Do you have 'go-non-stop to' orders?
06:32<xand>no
06:32<xand>planetmaker: I see
06:32<xand>Zuu: they stop there if it's the only route, but otherwise drive round
06:32<LordAro>Ammler: Linux Mint Debian Edition, not updated quick enough, and no, takes too much effort :P
06:32<Zuu>If the other path is just one other way, you could put a extra stop there and using go-non-stop to avoid it stopping at any of the stations that it pass by.
06:33<Zuu>Eg. by penaltizing both ways equal
06:33<xand>hmm
06:35<Zuu>If there are two options and one have an unwanted penalty that you can't remove, you can add an equal penalty to the other option. Just make sure there isn't a third or fourth option that traffic will spill over to.
06:36<xand>I could do that but I don't like the idea of unused stations ;)
06:36<xand>I think I'll stick to building mostly trams :D
06:44<@planetmaker>or order it to visit the station or go via the station
06:45<Ammler>LordAro: then that sounds like you should use a bleeding edge distro...
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06:48<LordAro>Ammler: i did run debian unstable for a while, but i got bored without a graphics driver for about a month, so i switched to this :L
06:53<LordAro>i thought perhaps going back to ubuntu, but xubuntu to avoid unity
06:57<@planetmaker>*without* graphics driver?
06:57<kero>hi peoples
06:58<Ammler>maybe you should try a rpm distro :-)
06:59<LordAro>planetmaker: fglrx had dependency issues
07:00<@planetmaker>maybe you should use rather testing than unstable ;-)
07:00<LordAro>testing is old :P
07:01<kero>Try Archlinux. It's cool.
07:06<LordAro>i recently installed arch on my raspberry pi, seems fun
07:06<LordAro>i might :L
07:07<Ammler>except that is is a stupid name
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07:08<kero>Actually, I like it better as "ubuntu", or "fedora" :)
07:08<kero>but the real cool thing, is that it's a rolling release
07:09<kero>no big version jumps
07:10<kero>(speaking of which, I just noticed that version 1.2.3 of openttd just arrived in repositories)
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07:12<LordAro>except i'm going to have to relearn how to install stuff (apt-get -> pacman)
07:13<Flygon>I'm the lamest person here, I go "New Task", 'explorer.exe' :B
07:13*andythenorth types 'macports blah'
07:14<andythenorth>and is then somewhere between rage and disappointment
07:15*NGC3982 ports Andy to OSX
07:16<@planetmaker>why porting him?
07:19<NGC3982>We coulnd't find a cartridge suitable for the SNES.
07:19<kero>planetmaker : have you seen the patch I posted ?
07:19<andythenorth>hmm
07:19<andythenorth>can we make a mariokart grf?
07:19<Flygon>I'd rather a Mega Drive
07:20<Flygon>Easier to use it's VDP as a psudo-framebuffer, and audio in/out lines on the cart slot :B
07:21<andythenorth>I didn't mean reimplement the entire console on the map
07:21<andythenorth>;)
07:21<andythenorth>which might be possible :P
07:23<@planetmaker>hm, where, kero ?
07:24<@planetmaker>oh, there
07:24<kero>planetmaker : http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4507
07:33<LordAro>hmm. arch install seems a bit complicated...
07:33<kero>it depends
07:34<kero>it's easy if your experienced in linux. Otherwise, It's not the better solution
07:38<LordAro>been using linux for about 2 years now
07:39<LordAro>seems reasonable enough, but i think i'd like to print off the 'installation guide' wiki page :L
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07:55<drac_boy>hi
07:59*drac_boy pokes flygon with a broken valve handle
07:59<andythenorth>#train_talk ?
07:59<Flygon>andy is getting preemptive
08:00*Flygon pokes drac_boy with YouTube
08:00*drac_boy pokes andythenorth with a little 20x4 pixels locomotive
08:00<Flygon>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJiriVt-uYM :B
08:02<drac_boy>how're you flygon?
08:02<Flygon>Decent
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08:54<K4T>hello
08:55<K4T>im here to say thank you for developers :P
08:56<K4T>ok, can idle now :P
08:56<andythenorth>:)
09:06<@planetmaker>:-)
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09:13<andythenorth>Alberth: this is stupidest code ever http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/1884/
09:14<andythenorth>is there a better way to get an index number from the iterator?
09:14<andythenorth>I could do this trivially in chameleon, but it seems overkill for the size of the result :P
09:14<@Alberth>for i, x in enumerate(list)
09:15<andythenorth>winner
09:15<andythenorth>thanks
09:15<@Alberth>if self.economy_variations[economy].disabled == False: <-- if not self.economy_variations[economy].disabled:
09:16<andythenorth>seen the obvious logical flaw in my loop?
09:16<andythenorth>what's max number of items will ever be in enabled_economies list?
09:17<andythenorth>:P
09:17<@Alberth>not really, but I am glad you spotted it :)
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09:21<@Yexo>andythenorth: ' || '.join(['economy==' + str(count) for count,economy in global_constants.economies if not economy.disabled])
09:21<@Yexo>untested though
09:22<andythenorth>one line python game :)
09:22<@Yexo>and should be "enumerate(global_constants.economies)" isntead of "global_constants.economies"
09:22<andythenorth>patch? :)
09:23*andythenorth is changing nappies :P
09:23<@Yexo>nah, your current code is easier to read
09:23<andythenorth>that's problem with map
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09:53<Eddi|zuHause>i prefer map(., .) over [ . for . ]
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10:18<LordAro>that's where i was going wrong - i was trying to install the base files onto the .iso, rather than the virtualbox machine :L
10:20<xaroth>Eddi|zuHause: map vs for both have their uses
10:20<xaroth>[x.func() for x in y] should always be used over map(cls.func, y)
10:20<xaroth>also, map() will behave differently between python 2 and 3
10:20<xaroth>in python 3 it returns a generator
10:21<xaroth>you use map to apply a function to all items of the array, else, for is the recommended wayt to go
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10:22<xaroth>so Yexo's line was accurate
10:25<andythenorth>meh
10:25<andythenorth>should I bother writing a validator for FIRS economies?
10:25<andythenorth>i.e. check that industries have all required cargos (or at least one cargo where cargos are optional)
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10:26<xaroth>could be useful
10:26<andythenorth>sounds like a fun challenge...for someone else o_O
10:27<andythenorth>it's probably some kind of link graph
10:28<andythenorth>any node with no links is a problem
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>depends on what you want to validate
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>you could autogenerate industry graphs :)
10:29<andythenorth>want to try?
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>probably not :)
10:30<andythenorth>I have all objects sanely in scope now
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>every time i try graphviz i get annoyed because i don't have enough direct control
10:30<andythenorth>or I could just rely on playtesters :)
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember already doing a graph for some early FIRS version
10:31<andythenorth>hmm generating cargo charts from source is now possible, didn't think of that :)
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>back then i had to parse the html page or something
10:33<andythenorth>yeah
10:33<andythenorth>I'm going to auto-generate docs
10:33<andythenorth>charts...not me :)
10:33<andythenorth>hmm
10:33<andythenorth>PIL
10:33<andythenorth>${someone} should implement a FIRS economy
10:34<andythenorth>all the hooks are there
10:34<andythenorth>then we could play a game with it using the new version of NoCarGoal
10:35<Rubidium>andythenorth: use dot
10:36<xaroth>^ that.
10:37<Rubidium>that at least draws a graph for you ;)
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10:40<@planetmaker>a bientot
10:40<Rubidium>bye planetmaker
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>that misses a few accents
10:49<V453000>that is why I prefer "hi bitches"
10:51<Rubidium>interesting way to say "good bye"
10:58<K4T>how can I check if town is metropolis?
10:59<Zuu>Ask in or check the thread for the GS that you run.
10:59<Zuu>Unless you mean that you want to know if a town is 'city'
11:00<Zuu>Or look in the GS readme
11:00<Zuu>Or at the bottom of the town window. GSs can attach a message there if they want.
11:00<K4T>GS?
11:00<Zuu>Game Script
11:01<Zuu>'metropolis' is not a state of a town in standard OpenTTD
11:01<Zuu>So I assumed you were running eg. City Builder.
11:01<K4T>im playing standard OTTD
11:02<Zuu>Standard OpenTTD can load Game Scripts. However, if you don't have any GS loaded, the only property I can think of is if it is 'city' or not.
11:03<Zuu>IIRC cities have their name capitalized in some place in the GUI while non-city towns dont.
11:05<Zuu>Just checked and couldn't find this capitalized thingy. But in the title bar of the town window there is a extra lable saying City attached to the town name.
11:05<Zuu>So check the title bar of the town window of a town to check if it is 'city' or not.
11:05<K4T>I wanna be sure that town which I choose to develop can be city later in my game
11:05<K4T>to grow faster etc
11:05<K4T>ow, thanks
11:06<LordAro>Zuu/KT4: Cities are defined by their townname in the town information window being "<townname> (City)"
11:06<LordAro>yeah, that :L
11:06<Zuu>LordAro: Exactly, just that paranthesis lock my control key so I avoid them until I restart my computer.
11:06<LordAro>lol?
11:06<Zuu>.p
11:07<Zuu>Some Windows-issue
11:07<LordAro>how odd :L
11:07<LordAro>not sticky keys, i assume?
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11:14<Zuu>It occurs if I type a char that requires AltGr, then Ctrl get locked until I cycle keyboard layouts to unstick it. Or better reboot to get away with the issue until some weeks or months later.
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11:25<andythenorth>not sure of best place to keep docs templates / src
11:25<andythenorth>FISH has them in the /docs dir, which is frequently confusing
11:26<andythenorth>src/docs_templates?
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11:34<Eddi|zuHause>src/doc_templates?
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11:53<andythenorth>python step is gettign slow
11:53<andythenorth>need it to be faster :P
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>maybe CETS' python step is so fast becaause i don't deal in objects?
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>or because almost all steps are O(n) in the length of the tracking table?
11:58<andythenorth>I should turn off the IO and see if it makes a difference
12:06<andythenorth>meh, it's the templating
12:06<andythenorth>it's about 7s
12:08<andythenorth>probably just the IO on opening files
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12:12<andythenorth>some industries are opening 4 or 5 template files
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12:13<andythenorth>and they're being opened by each module
12:13<andythenorth>so there's IO every time
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12:17<Eddi|zuHause>but the files should be cached?
12:17<andythenorth>not sure
12:18<andythenorth>they should be, chameleon is usually good at this
12:18<andythenorth>it's not writing the files that's slow
12:18<andythenorth>I doubt that optimising it is going to lead to a net time-saving :)
12:18<andythenorth>it's annoying to wait 5s, but I think it will take me a couple of hours to improve :P
12:19<andythenorth>@calc (2 * 60*60) / 5
12:19<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1440
12:21<andythenorth>auto docs (ugly) http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/1885/
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12:31<Eddi|zuHause>it's backwards
12:32<andythenorth>yup
12:32<andythenorth>dicts don't return sensibly :)
12:32*andythenorth fixes that
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>dict.items().sorted()
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>or whatever
12:33<andythenorth>I was using iteritems(), can I sort that?
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>the slowest thing about CETS' python step is sorting the engine list
12:34<andythenorth>sorting sorted
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12:34<andythenorth>if anyone wants to give me a schema for an economy I'll try implementing it
12:35<andythenorth>within reason, I'll include any economy that's coherent
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12:56*andythenorth attempts a basic economy
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13:01<Kitty>40
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24662 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2012-11-04 18:45:20 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>croatian - 9 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<@DorpsGek>german - 6 changes by planetmaker
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 6 changes by Terkhen
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14:02<Sacro>http://i.imgur.com/UoL0Y.jpg
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14:06<LordAro>old :P
14:06<DanMacK>Hey all
14:07<Sacro>sup
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14:22<andythenorth>meh
14:22<andythenorth>action 14 caching :P
14:22<andythenorth>even across 'rescan grfs' :)
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14:33<andythenorth>'FIRS' and a test 'Basic' economy http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/1887/
14:34<andythenorth>and a version to test with http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/r3174/
14:35<andythenorth>clay pit could probably go, as could paper mill and brickworks
14:35<andythenorth>and there's only one farm and one farm cargo
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14:37<andythenorth>anyway, don't all shout at once
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14:39<Eddi|zuHause>whoever put a "SBB RABe 512" into the CETS tracking table, i can't find any evidence of such a vehicle ever existing... i'll take it out...
14:39<andythenorth>is CETS done yet :)
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>not really
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>i wanted to turn the green boxes into coloured boxes before making an alpha release
14:40<andythenorth>I know the feeling :)
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>but i haven't gotten around to it
14:40<andythenorth>that too
14:41<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: might it be the 521?
14:41<andythenorth>MP NoCarGoal with FIRS Basic economy?
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: there's a separate entry for 521-524
14:41<Rubidium>514?
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>that's older, and exists as well
14:44<Rubidium>mystery train; 511? Otherwise I guess you're right there isn't much proof of it
14:44<Rubidium>though I've seen some mentions of it, just nothing really concrete
14:45<Rubidium>e.g. it is in the table at http://www.photosrail.ch/sbbcffffs/rabe511/sommairesbbcffffsrabe511.php but... it's not linked
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15:06<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Last photo on http://www.wittigbahn.ch/eisenbahnseite/vorbild/fahrzeuge/mofahrzeuge/motriebwagen/motriebwagen.htm
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15:08<Rubidium>hmm, might the 511-514 range be equivalent to the 521-524 range?
15:08<+michi_cc>There's no proper type label visible though, so a 512 might be the same type as a 511
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15:11<+michi_cc>Hmm, can't be either, Wikipedia says RABe 511 are bilevel units, and the photo is definitely not a bilevel unit.
15:18<Rubidium>but the 511 on that photo page aren't bilevel either
15:20<__ln__>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrDDn8ZY9wk F1
15:22<Sacro>argj s[ppoilers
15:24<__ln__>every F1 car has a spoiler
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15:26<+michi_cc>Rubidium: Do you know if there were any MediaWiki, LDAP or similar updates on the server in the last months? It seems the wiki login for usernames with a _ that TB fixed once somehow got unfixed.
15:27<Rubidium>michi_cc: I'm not aware of any, though that doesn't prove or disprove it having happened
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: the 511 and 512 on this page are vehicle numbers, not vehicle class numbers
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>so it's a RABe xxx-511 and RABe xxx-512
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>where xxx is ommitted because the railway has only one type
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15:30<Eddi|zuHause>"or something" :p
15:33<__ln__>*omitted
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15:54<@planetmaker>good evening
15:54<andythenorth>lo planetmaker
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16:25<Wolf01>hello :D
16:25<__ln__>what's so funny?!?
16:27<Wolf01>me
16:29<@planetmaker>hello Wolf01
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16:29<drac_boy>hi
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16:46<andythenorth>bed
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17:16<@planetmaker>good night
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17:22<Wolf01>'night all
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17:53<@Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Mon Nov 05 00:00:10 2012