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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-11-05

---Logopened Mon Nov 05 00:00:10 2012
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02:48<NGC3982>Morning.
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03:28<@Terkhen>good morning
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08:32<V453000>is there a 32bpp palette anywhere or does that just mean I can use any 256_256_256 rgb colour without palletizing the image?
08:34<lobster>I think so, yes
08:35<V453000>yes which option ? :D
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>the one that makes sense :)
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09:09<Flygon>Which is probaby 32-bit RGB :B
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09:23<Kjetil>Not 30-bit YCbCr ? :P
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09:59<@Yexo>32-bit RGBA to be exact
10:04<V453000>I sticked with 8bpp anyway :P
10:07<frosch123>with 32bpp you can give the animation colours different brightness :p
10:07<@Belugas>hello
10:08<frosch123>hello sir belugas :)
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10:25<@Belugas>hi sir frosch123 :)
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10:53<DanMacK>Hey all
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10:56<DanMacK>Hey andy
10:57<andythenorth>hey dada__
10:57<andythenorth>DanMacK: :P
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12:37<andythenorth>it's oh so quiet
12:37*andythenorth will talk to himself, that always adds noise
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12:50<frosch123>awk syntax is insane
12:53<andythenorth>because...?
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12:54<frosch123>just general, but especially around "|"
13:15<andythenorth>anyone want to script appending '_1' to the end of every .png filename in firs/src/graphics?
13:16<SpComb>for file in firs/src/graphics/*.png; do mv $file ${file/.png/_1.png}; done
13:18<SpComb>for file in firs/src/graphics/*.png; do mv $file ${file%.png}_1.png; done
13:18<SpComb>may eat your files
13:19<andythenorth>worked
13:20<andythenorth>ta
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14:00<andythenorth>so if I have "glass_works_snow_1.png"
14:00<andythenorth>and want "glass_works_1_snow.png"
14:01<andythenorth>for file in firs/src/graphics/*_snow_1.png; do mv $file ${file/.png/_1_snow.png}; done
14:01<andythenorth>might work :P
14:02<andythenorth>oops
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14:03*andythenorth got there in the end :P
14:07<andythenorth>nml sprite cache makes a big difference to compile time btw
14:07<andythenorth>only noticeable when you rename all pngs :P
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14:42<Wolf01>hello o/
14:44<NGC3982>Evening.
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14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24663 /trunk/src (widgets/statusbar_widget.h window_type.h) (2012-11-05 19:45:45 UTC)
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Unify the naming of widget enums.
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14:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24664 /trunk/src/script/api (5 files in 3 dirs) (2012-11-05 19:53:05 UTC)
14:53<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Add script to generate enums in script_window.hpp
14:56<andythenorth>I need a FIRS makefile target that suppresses the python step :P
14:56<andythenorth>saves me 7s on compile time ;P
14:58<frosch123>take it positive, every compile gives you 7 extra seconds to chat here
14:59<andythenorth>yeah, that's nice for the rest of you :)
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15:02<andythenorth>it's bonfire night in UK
15:02<andythenorth>smokey
15:02<andythenorth>so how about fixing ship smoke? o_O
15:03*andythenorth goes back to fixing FIRS
15:03<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24665 trunk/src/script/api/script_window.hpp (2012-11-05 20:03:17 UTC)
15:03<@DorpsGek>-Doc [FS#5353]: [Script] Add note about the compatibility aspects of the enums in ScriptWindow.
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15:24*andythenorth has brain boggle
15:32<andythenorth>is there any magic date that will serve as 'forever' ?
15:32<andythenorth>[in nml]
15:32<andythenorth>nvm if not
15:33<Rubidium>01-01-5 000 001
15:35<andythenorth>is repeating spritelayouts *a lot* a problem?
15:35<andythenorth>it's simpler to have varaction 2 switching layouts than doing logic in the spritelayout itself
15:36<frosch123>add 32bpp sprites to firs
15:36<frosch123>then the size of code will never matter again
15:36<frosch123>s/32bpp/extra zoom/
15:41<andythenorth>:P
15:42<andythenorth>ok
15:42<andythenorth>so I have "hide_sprite: !(terrain_type != TILETYPE_SNOW);"
15:43<andythenorth>and I need that to also handle date conditions
15:43<andythenorth>so if != snow and if between date 1 and date 2
15:43<andythenorth>how do I do that?
15:44<andythenorth>and in many cases date 1 may be 0, and date 2 may be omitted :P
15:44<andythenorth>but I can handle the latter challenge in python
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15:44<@Yexo>"hide_sprite: !(terrain_type != TILETYPE_SNOW);" <- please rewrite that to "hide_sprite: (terrain_type == TILETYPE_SNOW);"
15:45<@Yexo>how do you have the dates in python?
15:45<@Yexo>as year?
15:45<andythenorth>as whatever we need :)
15:45<andythenorth>they're not done yet
15:46<@Yexo>so pick what you want :)
15:46<andythenorth>year
15:46<@Yexo>nml has as function "date(year, month, day)"
15:46*andythenorth removes the double !
15:46<@Yexo>so the sprite should be shown below the snowline between certain dates?
15:47<andythenorth>yes
15:47<andythenorth>there is an accompanying snow sprite too
15:47<andythenorth>but I can manage copy and paste to that I reckon :)
15:47<@Yexo>hide_sprite: (terrain_type == TILETYPE_SNOW) || current_year < $(first_year) || current_year > $(last_year);
15:48<@Yexo>please change the python template syntax to whatever works :p
15:48<andythenorth>thanks
15:48<@Yexo>| current_year > $(last_year); <- you can leave that off if the last year is "forever"
15:49<andythenorth>ta
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16:02<andythenorth>FIRS is getting...complex :)
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16:13<andythenorth>o/
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16:52<andythenorth>helps to put 'return' into a method if you want the value back :P
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16:58<krinn>hi all
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i know this problem :)
16:59<krinn>AI event change names again or i lost something ?
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17:00<krinn>ah, lol ok, no that's me, i miss the new names scheme is only for the eventtype
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17:07<andythenorth>hmm
17:07<andythenorth>what kind of graphics would you like for FIRS?
17:07<andythenorth>date sensitive?
17:07<andythenorth>or not date sensitive?
17:08<V453000>the current ones :)
17:08<V453000>what does it mean date sensitive? like that they change with the game?
17:08*Terkhen likes the current ones too
17:09<andythenorth>date sensitive = change over time
17:09<andythenorth>e.g. steam cranes -> diesel cranes
17:09<krinn>andythenorth, anything you wish as long as an AI can detect it :)
17:10<krinn>andythenorth, oh i see, you mean temporal evolution of graphism ?
17:10<andythenorth>yup
17:12<andythenorth>hmm
17:12<krinn>as einstein said, shouldn't you end-up with rocks ?
17:12<MNIM>andythenorth: based on build-date with an option to disable, please?
17:12<andythenorth>eh?
17:12<andythenorth>fuck that
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17:13<andythenorth>or to put it another way, what's the benefit ofthat?
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17:14<Ammler>making a setting would make the voting useless ;-)
17:14<@Terkhen>settings are nice, the more the merrier
17:14<andythenorth>yup
17:14<frosch123>i want a webinterface to click and drag my own composition of firs graphics
17:14<@Terkhen>proof: see OpenTTD advanced settings window
17:14<andythenorth>frosch123: you can have one, it's paint.NET :)
17:14<@Terkhen>but yes, in this case a setting would not hurt :)
17:15<@Terkhen>unless it makes some huge mess in the graphics block / callbacks
17:15<andythenorth>no it could be done
17:15<Ammler>so the voting is for default setting
17:15<andythenorth>I just don't see the gain
17:15<krinn>i don't see the point of setting in newGRF as AI cannot click on them themselves
17:15<@Terkhen>well, honestly I don't see the gain in redrawing industries again unless it is a very low priority task :P
17:15<Ammler>players can't either, usually
17:16<andythenorth>it seems rather fine-grained to need to control the type of graphics used?
17:16<MNIM>andythenorth: making great eyecandy monuments to my megalomane stations?
17:16<andythenorth>just change the game date
17:16<andythenorth>problem solved
17:16<frosch123>krinn: you want a screenshot api? plus object recognition?
17:16<andythenorth>frosch123: I could encode object information into nml :P
17:16<MNIM>Hmmmh, good point. okay, so no disabling then :P
17:16<andythenorth>if you provide a spec
17:17<andythenorth>hmm
17:17<krinn>frosch123, well, it would be abuse for that usage, but many engine have extra newGRF feature we cannot choose
17:17<@Yexo>frosch123: just a screenshot api, let him figure out the object recognition in squirrel :p
17:17<andythenorth>AIs that auto-screenshot my stuff?
17:17<andythenorth>good for testing :P
17:17<andythenorth>bit like selenium :P
17:18<andythenorth>anyway the poll is moot :)
17:18<andythenorth>the code is done
17:18<frosch123>we should just give ais rcon access
17:18<frosch123>then they can kick the player, if he blocks their station
17:18<krinn>like a triain with 1000HP and 100spd or the same engine with 400HP and 120spd : ai cannot pickup the version they wish... So yes, the more options in newGRF is more trouble for AI as, at best they cannot use them
17:18<frosch123>or they can just stop other ais :)
17:18<frosch123>or move themself to the human company and transfer all money
17:18<andythenorth>krinn: oh, you're going to hate FIRS economies parameter :(
17:18<andythenorth>sorry
17:18<andythenorth>it's done by the way
17:19<krinn>it's ok don't worry, i hate all newGRF
17:19<@Yexo>go almost bankrupt and move the human player to the AI company :p
17:19<@Terkhen>I think that krinn means new "models" available via refitting
17:19<krinn>Yexo :)
17:19<@Yexo>andythenorth: I don't think FIRS is that bad for AIs
17:19<andythenorth>krinn: do you detect industries and cargos with code, or do you have a lookup table for each newgrf?
17:19<krinn>Terkhen, that's what i saw, but many other hidden stuff may exist, and ones more painful for AI i suppose
17:19<@Terkhen>the AIs should be able to detect all present cargos even if FIRS settings change
17:20<@Yexo>at least most (all?) industries have predictable cargo's (as soon as the parameter is set they don't change), there are no stockpiles
17:20<@Yexo>andythenorth: and it's autodetected of course
17:20<krinn>by code andythenorth but passenger and mail are always problematic
17:20<andythenorth>\o/
17:20<@Terkhen>krinn: having information about all refit "models" available would help both AIs and the refit window itself, which could be improved
17:20<@Yexo>AIs can't even figure out which NewGRFs are in use
17:20<@Yexo>or rather, not directly
17:21*Terkhen never liked refit models anyways
17:21<andythenorth>did I mention banning subtypes?
17:21<andythenorth>:
17:21<andythenorth>:P
17:21<@Yexo>banning subtypes is good for AIs :)
17:21<krinn>Could only detect them indirectly : ikarus vehicle running show ikarus newGRF presence (and it's only assuming that engine is from that set yes)
17:22<andythenorth>subtypes will never be banned; no-one wants the hassle :)
17:22<@Terkhen>with regard to detecting refit models, IIRC the NewGRF callbacks that define them can depend on runtime stuff
17:22<andythenorth>leave AI authors to deal with it, they're quite well behaved, and they don't have a crowd of monkeys on the forums backing them up :)
17:22<krinn>But seriously the "i change my length if i'm use with that loco type"... kind of options sucks balls for AI, and i would say even for me
17:23<andythenorth>whereas touching person x's favourite grf causes much throwing of peanuts
17:23<frosch123>just implement sandbox construction
17:23<@Terkhen>and therefore OpenTTD cannot check what "false models" are available just with checking the real model, it needs an specific vehicle
17:23<frosch123>and consist-based replacement
17:24<frosch123>wasn't there even a patch on the forums? :)
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17:24<andythenorth>subtypes are a social problem, not a spec problem ;)
17:25<@Terkhen>we should move NewGRFs to XML
17:25<andythenorth>I did :P
17:25<andythenorth>kinda
17:25<krinn>i don't know subtypes, but any newGRF that have "hidden" rules sucks, as it's a nuisance for human, and a real pain for AI
17:25<frosch123>we have even decoding
17:26<frosch123>grf2html can convert most grf into xml
17:26<andythenorth>so cb36 is the problem :P
17:26<andythenorth>not subtypes
17:26<andythenorth>ban cb36!
17:26<@Terkhen>krinn: yes, but sadly... hysterical raisins
17:27<krinn>Terkhen, i know that, what i don't get is that even as human player, i hate that : you pickup a wagon, change the loco and poof, your train is too long while the wagon was of the good size just before...
17:27<andythenorth>this is seen as character
17:27<andythenorth>and realism
17:27<andythenorth>and is not about showing how clever the newgrf author is at all
17:27<@Terkhen>I only play with OpenGFX+ Trains
17:28<@Terkhen>anything else is too complex for my simple train mind :P
17:28<andythenorth>and ships that change speed load / unloaded have immense gameplay benefit, and are not just andythenorth showing off ;P
17:28<frosch123>does musa allow adding grfs as depenencies to ais?
17:28<frosch123>then krinn's ai can depend on ogfx+trains or nuts
17:29<andythenorth>hmm
17:29<andythenorth>the graphics for all industries of type x will all change at once, everywhere on the map
17:29<@Terkhen>oh, I forgot that sometimes I also use the metro part of 2cc
17:29<krinn>newGRF have only create one thing : all AIs learned the magic word "blacklist"
17:29<andythenorth>^^ this might need some more thought :P
17:30<@Yexo>frosch123: not sure, but I don't think it places any restrictions on what can depend on what
17:30<@Yexo>but having a bananas dependency doesn't make sure it's only loaded with that newgrf in-game
17:30<@Terkhen>andythenorth: use town persistent storage to store a value that determines when will the industry type X of that certain town switch to the new graphics
17:30<@Yexo>only that the user has to download that particular newgrf
17:30<andythenorth>Terkhen: nice idea
17:30<andythenorth>or just use random()
17:30<andythenorth>dunno if I can do that in a spritelayout condition
17:31<@Terkhen>I'm dissapointed... I was expecting all kinds of crazy stuff with town persistent storage but to my knowledge it still has not been used
17:31<@Yexo>if you can do it in a varaction2 chain (= switch-block), you can do it in a spritelayout
17:31<@Terkhen>I don't mind it much though, GS already does everything I planned to do with the stuff that requires town persistent storage
17:31<@Terkhen>that required*
17:32<@Terkhen>I assume that krinn appreciates that stuff never seeing the light of the day :P
17:33<andythenorth>If I can do it in a varaction2 chain, can ${someone else} write it in a spritelayout for me? :P
17:33<krinn>Terkhen, right assumption : don't put thing that change rules if AI cannot get the rules
17:33<andythenorth>Terkhen: store whether a town is 'progressive' or 'slow' for industry changes :P
17:33<andythenorth>just an offset to dates
17:33<andythenorth>if you can store the var and get it, I can template it in :P
17:34<@Terkhen>andythenorth: there is a program that converts nfo into nml :P
17:34<krinn>i saw some have "good usage" of flexibility : i saw truck that change livery with fancy graphics a bit random, but the "i change length..." kind of abuse, are well, abusive
17:34<@Terkhen>krinn: yes, other people convinced me that NewGRF was not the right way to control town growth :)
17:35*andythenorth has trams that change length, capacity, all sorts :P
17:35<@Yexo><andythenorth> If I can do it in a varaction2 chain, can ${someone else} write it in a spritelayout for me? :P <- sure, but it's easier if you don't write nfo but very clear steps on what you want to do
17:35<andythenorth>I don't actually know, the line above just sounded good ;)
17:35<krinn>Terkhen, i'm not sure what is the right way, but i'm sure what is the bad way : using something that human, or openttd itself cannot see is the bad way
17:36<andythenorth>this needs some source of randomness http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1890/
17:36<andythenorth>give me a param to pass to the method, I'll template the randomness :P
17:36<andythenorth>needs to be a single numeric offset, always same for a specific industry instance
17:37<andythenorth>there are construction-time random bits, never re-randomised?
17:37*andythenorth needs to sleep :)
17:38<@Terkhen>krinn: I don't think that the NewGRF specs original design took those goals into account :P
17:38<@Terkhen>or that some people would have to improve AIs in the future
17:39<andythenorth>NewNewGRF!
17:39<andythenorth>good night :)
17:39<@Terkhen>the creation of AIs was probably not even imagined :P
17:39<@Terkhen>good night andythenorth
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17:40<@Terkhen>there was a discussion about scrapping the NewGRF specs recently, although for different reasons
17:40<krinn>some technical difficulties can be solve, but with a pain solve, like building all wagons and refit them to see their real properties when built (but it have a cost, and it's a pain to code), but some are simply undoable : how could i refit to the 800hp 100spd the engine if i don't have the API to do it ?
17:41<@Yexo>krinn: this and similar issues have been known since the beginning of NoAI development
17:41<@Yexo>however even at that time there were a vast amount of NewGRFs
17:41<@Yexo>breaking compatibility with the existing content wasn't very nice
17:42<krinn>Well, it's because it's see as an AI problem, when it's a newGRF problem that affect openttd itself : why openttd cannot told me (a human, well, assume as human) that this wagon cannot be use with that loco until i brought it
17:43<@Terkhen>because OpenTTD itself does not know it either until the loco is bought and you try to attach the wagon
17:43<@Yexo>the newgrf specs have organically grown, there are worse issues in it than this
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>given the popularity of some older newgrf sets and the length of their release cycle, it would probably a bad idea to "scrap" parts of the newgrf specs
17:43<krinn>and we end with the problem : how could an AI query openttd to answer something openttd cannot answer itself :)
17:43<frosch123>Terkhen: that's why you need a sandbox construction mode :)
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>i won't name names *hüstel*
17:43<@Terkhen>frosch123: what do you mean with that?
17:44<@Yexo>a certain .b?
17:44<frosch123>Terkhen: imagine something like template based autoreplace. you would be able to compose consists, without actually building them
17:44<krinn>Terkhen, i suppose the "build all wagons, record their properties, sell them" is a sandbox
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17:44<frosch123>you would see all properties of the final consist, and then build it as a whole
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17:45<Eddi|zuHause>why is that not included yet? was something wrong with the last implementation?
17:45<frosch123>btw. don't blame the specs on everything :p i mean which ai supports gs?
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17:45<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i did not look at it
17:45<krinn>more than you think (well sooner) frosch123 :)
17:45<krinn>with scp we can now
17:46<frosch123>krinn: that requires the ai to know the gs exactly
17:46<frosch123>we can also just expose the grfid to ais. you can add support for all 500 newgrfs just fine
17:46<frosch123>no problem at all :p
17:46<krinn>no, this requiere the ai to know the api of the gs : like an ai need to know the api of openttd
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>one problem with the newgrf specs is the utter uselessness of cb18
17:47<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: we don't even support that
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that's a hen-egg-problem
17:47<@Terkhen>frosch123: my NewGRF-fu is quite rusty so maybe I'm saying something impossible, but what if I define that a wagon cannot be attached to a consist that is carrying fruit or some other condition that does not depend on the consist itself?
17:47<@Yexo>we support cb18 for stations ;)
17:47<@Yexo>(the only sane part :p)
17:47<krinn>we made scp using commandSet (read API there), so any GS using that commandSet will be runnable with an API handling that commandSet
17:48<krinn>-> /sAPI/AI ill be runnable with an API handling that commandSet
17:49<frosch123>Terkhen: imo the goal is to make ais only use stuff that humans need as well
17:49<frosch123>a newgrf is unlikely to implement something which breaks something many humans want to use
17:49<frosch123>however, usually they won't bother about ais
17:49<@Terkhen>true :)
17:50<@Terkhen>besides crazy corner cases like the one I mentioned, that sandbox construction mode should work
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>cb18 for trains could work similar to the articulated callback, i.e. the AI passes general data like train length, cargo and station distance, and the NewGRF returns vehicle IDs and refit subtypes until it returns "no more vehicles"
17:50<frosch123>krinn: does it support easy integration of sillicon valley?
17:51<krinn>never saw it frosch123 tbh, it depend what the GS do and what AI can do with it
17:51<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: as far as i have seens ais building trains up to now, the main problem is that we have no method to tell ais about the weight
17:51<frosch123>so, all trains are usually stuck at some hill
17:52<frosch123>krinn: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/siliconvalley
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17:52<frosch123>has some screenshots
17:52<frosch123>esp. the goals
17:52<@Terkhen>good night
17:52<Wolf01>'night all
17:52<frosch123>you would really impress me, if scp supports that without the ai explcitly knowing about the gs
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17:52<krinn>build 3 industries goal is the facto a no
17:53<krinn>the 2 others are easy to do
17:53<krinn>the 4rd depend on the 1st
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17:55<krinn>your first goal cannot be made with an AI if i'm right, we don't own the BuildIndustry function
17:55<krinn>zuu add it for GS
17:55<frosch123>ais can do that for long
17:56<frosch123>zuu added stuff to gs, which humans cannot do
17:56<krinn>oh let me check (not something i really bother to do, building industry)
17:56<frosch123>something in AIIndustryType
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17:57<krinn>http://noai.openttd.org/docs/trunk/classAIIndustryType.html#698b2a85d7e821d2ff951e385d4fd8f5
17:58<krinn>so frosch123 this answer your main question : yes AI can play with sillicon valley
17:58<frosch123>krinn: my question was, whether an existing ai can play with gs, without knowing about the script
17:59<frosch123>i.e. can ais deal with it, which were written before silliicon valley
17:59<krinn>no, like any AI cannot play with knowing a new API
17:59<frosch123>exactly, that's the point
17:59<frosch123>you have to adapt every ai to every single gs
18:00<krinn>just like you need to adapt your AI to everything that is new : closing airport will be a pain for older AI while with the new API AI can manage that
18:00<+glx>maybe add HasGoal() or GetGoalList()
18:00<frosch123>glx: plus an english dictionary? :p
18:01<frosch123>krinn: so, why is it so bad then to support 500 apis for 500 different newgrfs then :p
18:02<krinn>because you have 0 API for newGRF : you cannot tell anything to AI, and worst, even openttd is foul about them
18:02<frosch123>yes, just the same as for gs
18:02<frosch123>gs cannot tell ais anythign about them without defining a special api
18:02<krinn>if you made an API that expose possible wagon length before their creation : openttd can display that to human and AI can query that thru API
18:03<frosch123>the problem is not the lack of any api, the problem is that a few grfs are just very different to others
18:03<frosch123>no generic api will ever support all newgrfs
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18:04<frosch123>just as no generic api will ever support all gs
18:04<krinn>well, for me, it looks more like anarchy than anything
18:04<+glx>there's a newgrf with silly industry placement requirements
18:04<frosch123>it's the independency of plugins
18:04<krinn>even dumb i'm sure you can build an engine that claim to be a train that once brought is a chopper and crazy things like that
18:05<frosch123>no, you cannot
18:05<+glx>(well not only one indeed -> ECS)
18:06<+glx>even for humans it's very hard to build something without looking at the docs
18:06<frosch123>yeah, ecs will likely not work with sillicon valley :)
18:06<frosch123>nothing bad about that, players just have to decide
18:06<frosch123>ecs has basically a gs integrated
18:07<+glx>yes, with production variations depending on dates
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18:08<frosch123>glx: well, i guess that is no problem. people who want to play with seaonsal changes, likely don't play with ais
18:08<frosch123>ais don't fit the scenery of a model railway
18:08<krinn>i don't see a problem with that, AI will see production change no ?
18:09<krinn>even the AI cannot know the date the change occurs
18:09<frosch123>krinn: it does not matter
18:09<frosch123>the production changes seasonal
18:09<frosch123>some industries produce only in summer
18:09<frosch123>so, your trains only load half of the year, and wait the other half
18:09<+glx>they will see it, but without knowing the industry produces for only 3 months they will bankrupt rapidely
18:09<frosch123>i actually have no idea how humans play with that :p
18:10<frosch123>i doubt they send the trains to the depot every half year
18:10<frosch123>or send them on a different route
18:10<+glx>and there are also industry chains
18:10<+glx>and "special" cargo increasing productions, but not required
18:11<@Yexo><krinn> i don't see a problem with that, AI will see production change no ? <- try your AI in a game with ECS and see how well it copes
18:11<frosch123>yup, and for such stuff there will never be an api :p
18:11<@Yexo>it's very hard to support
18:11<frosch123>such special mechanics only work when the ai/human know exactly about the grf
18:12<krinn>frosch123, like i said : if no API exist to inform the AI any fancy trick the newGRF do cannot be seen
18:13<frosch123>krinn: what i am trying to tell you all the time. there will never be an generic api
18:13<frosch123>it does not matter whether it is a newgrf or a script
18:13<+glx>IIRC ECS also use stockpiling and stop accepting cargo when full
18:13<frosch123>the "language" is not the problem here
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18:13<frosch123>ecs and sillicon valley provide very special mechanics
18:14<frosch123>an ai will only be able to cope with them, if it is explicitly coded for them
18:14<frosch123>if you want an api, the only api that makes sense is one which tells, which newgrf or gs is running
18:15<frosch123>then you can implement special behaviour for those you know
18:15<krinn>and what i'm telling you isn't that : i'm telling you as long as you can tell the AI what is going on, an AI could be made using it
18:15<frosch123>i am only interested in generic apis :)
18:16<frosch123>i.e. where you can make the ai before the gs/newgrf is coded
18:17<krinn>well, impossible to do, just like now: AI can only use function from API version it handle, how could it use functions that doesn't exist yet :)
18:20<krinn>Take the engine simple example: if you made an API for AI that can query the engine refit properties before building them, the AI (yes after update) will be able to handle any engine with such a feature
18:20<@Yexo>krinn: an AI written a few years ago can cope perfectly with new vehicle NewGRFs that are written today
18:20<@Yexo>as long as no fancy tricks are used of course
18:20<@Yexo>but for the general case the existing API works
18:21<krinn>Yexo, yes, but fancy tricks is the problem
18:21<frosch123>i thought that's what makes it interesting :p
18:21<@Yexo>so you want to extend the API with a new function for every fancy trick used by one NewGRF or one GameScript?
18:22<krinn>GS part is doable now, newGRF still need one
18:22<@Yexo>that means towards NewGRF we have two options: 1) Give them freedom like now and try to detect a lot of special cases. Hard to get right. 2) Limit the freedom of NewGRF authors by giving them only access to some well-defined functions. These functions can be exported to AIs without any problem
18:22<@Yexo>option 2) would make the live of AI devs a lot easier
18:23<krinn>why only AI ? option 2 is good for humans too
18:23<@Yexo>but it's A) not backwards compatible and B) limits the freedom of NewGRF devs that has created so many nice NewGRFs until now
18:23<krinn>if you don't know the newGRF you are playing with, you get bore fast with the stupid things they add in them
18:23<frosch123>krinn: it's not good for humans
18:24<frosch123>it means they have to wait for ecs till 2030
18:24<frosch123>it's like implemeting everything directly into openttd
18:24<frosch123>there would be no plugins at all
18:24<krinn>i have add many vehicles for testing against my AI, and try myself play with that, and get bore to see a wagon change because of this or that magically
18:25<frosch123>well, then you should not play with those :)
18:25<krinn>endup with buying classic wagon and engine as i'm not an AI to test all possibilites
18:25<frosch123>different players, different interests
18:25<krinn>for ecs or newGRF that change gameplay yes
18:26<krinn>but seriously affect gameplay with vehicle just sucks
18:26<frosch123>that's a very personal opinion :)
18:26<krinn>specially because openttd cannot warn me in the selection screen as itself cannot know it
18:26<@Yexo>others like trams that can be refit to different lengths because it keeps the list of all engines shorter
18:27<@Yexo>which is something that doesn't bother AIs, but does bother humans
18:27<krinn>well, the problem came from not knowing: if tram of size 10 can be refit to size 8, human might like that and pickup the size he wish
18:28<krinn>but if openttd don't tell the human the tram size will be 8 because of this: the human buy a tram of length 10 to endup with a 8, and it's boring
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18:30<krinn>so having size change with refit is a perfect example, human can see refit option and pick the one he like : it's totally different than having an option on screen telling you size 10 and when buying it because of wagon Z add to it, the size change to 8
18:30<krinn>after testing 3-4 engines, i gave up with all this shit, and endup with classic engine, because they do what openttd is telling you they will do
18:31<krinn>Just like the new aircraft distance limit
18:32<krinn>you brought an aircraft because the prize capacity and all and : what the fuck i cannot use that because my airports are too far
18:32<@Yexo>again: some players like that, others don't. If you don't, disable the aircraft limits altogether
18:33<krinn>i'm not sure if recent openttd change it
18:33<krinn>but last time i try : it wasn't telling me the distance an aircraft could do
18:34<krinn>so you cannot pickup an unknown aircraft as you cannot be sure if it have the limit or not
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18:35<@Yexo>I thought the distance was displayed in the purchase menu, but never really bothered to check
18:35<krinn>last time i try, it wasn't
18:35<krinn>let me check (but i'm using 1.2 now)
18:37<@Yexo>it doesn't display the range
18:37<krinn>i'm not sure on 1.2 it tell me refit... i don't see anything related to distance and i think it's that newgrf
18:37<krinn>ah yes sucks, it is
18:37<@Yexo>something to be improved
18:37<@Yexo>but good night
18:37<krinn>building two airport, buying an aircraft and got the error now
18:38<krinn>ok night
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19:33<krinn>one question before bed : a break will get me out of a two foreach loop ?
19:35<+glx>only current loop
19:35<krinn>ah ok, thank you glx
19:36<krinn>night all, sleep well
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21:05<drac_boy>hi
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21:07*drac_boy pokes flygon to get amoving already
21:07<Flygon>I'm busy working on a comission
21:07<drac_boy>oh...still on that? :-s
21:08<Flygon>It's a 7 page comic series
21:09<drac_boy>flygon btw before I forget either way..I don't know if I had mentioned it but some of the french locomotives had odd designs .. usually never repeated just as well
21:09<Flygon>I know x3
21:09<Flygon>I've seen
21:10<drac_boy>one of these was .. well .. how do you put it this way ... a compound locomotive that was basically a standard 2-6-0 but had a low pressure piston on left side and high pressure piston on right side instead
21:10<drac_boy>compounding really works better with two pairs of two pistons (total 4 yeah) when it comes to locomotives anyway
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21:12<Flygon>Hmmm
21:12<Flygon>An experiment?
21:12<drac_boy>nope...small fleet of them
21:12<Flygon>It musta worked well
21:13<drac_boy>but either way I don't really know of examples oversea that well but I do know usa (mostly B&O weird enough) had tried water-tubed boilers but most of the times they were soon rebuilt with a conventional boiler instead
21:13<drac_boy>not sure what the main fault was with such a design, articles never said much
21:14<Flygon>The tubes must have cracked easily
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21:15<drac_boy>and while we're on B&O locomotives .. they also tried a strange idea that again was junked and rebuilt as conventional .... I forgot the name for it but to put it short .. you had the normal cab firebox ... then a short section of boiler tubes ... a second box of some sort and second section of boiler tubes
21:15<drac_boy>the middle section never operated so well which explains the idea being written off
21:16<drac_boy>wonder if they had thought there was some additional efficency in that or not when they first tried it
21:16<Supercheese>a reheat section?
21:16<drac_boy>supercheese something like that yeah
21:16<Supercheese>that would require a second set of cylinders, no?
21:16<Flygon>I'm sorry if I don't reply
21:16<Flygon>I'm quite busy
21:17<drac_boy>supercheese...no...the firebox fed the first pipe which then emptied into the middle box which then was feeding the second pipe .. which then finally did go to the pistons
21:17<drac_boy>thats why it wasn't too hard to rebuilt them as normal boilers after the idea started flopping
21:17<Supercheese>Hmm, odd indeed
21:17<drac_boy>I'm trying to see if i can find something of it online btw
21:17<Supercheese>I thought maybe they had the steam run from high pressure cylinders back to the boiler for reheat before heading to the low pressure cylinders, or something
21:23<drac_boy>hm not sure where to find it atm...maybe I'll check my magazines tomorrow if its still there
21:25<drac_boy>supercheese here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-tube_boiler does not mention the B&O locomotives but still ... kinda quite different from a normal boiler
21:26<drac_boy>I'm surprised two uk locomotives are directly mentioned tho :P
21:27<Supercheese>"Most were compounds" ; that makes sense
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21:28<drac_boy>supercheese if you want something that was really mechanically a major flip then try this....
21:29<drac_boy>http://www.thefairchilds.org/trains/full/prr6200b.jpg thats a single-turbine locomotive with a small reversing turbine sticking out the side (you can see it obviously) ...
21:30<drac_boy>sure it was good for heavy fast passenger trains but the main problem with such a direct single-speed turbine was...it could suck working pressure quite fast because unlike the piston valves theres nothing to restrain "endless" steam inlet to the turbine
21:30<drac_boy>turbines had always been better off on boats alone where weight was not a concern so it was easy to have a multi-turbines setup (where it progressed from a small to large turbine as power required)
21:31<drac_boy>even then some ships still had a small conventional diesel genset for these moments where the small turbine isn't really needed but theres no land power hookups tho if you get the idea
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21:35<drac_boy>supercheese sometimes if you look for a ship turbine online you'll notice that its several sets of blades whether same or different sizes ... thats always the way its been :)
21:36<Supercheese>I wonder if anyone ever tried running a cogenerative gas turbine locomotive
21:36<Supercheese>run the boiler using the hot exhaust from the gas turbine
21:37<drac_boy>heres something that has a lot of power settings from one to so many blades at once depending http://gcaptain.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/lm2500-gas-turbine.jpg :P
21:37<Supercheese>probably would have been ridiculously complex
21:37<drac_boy>I suspect the middle two blades are transitional blades to "switch" shaft speed .. not sure tho
21:38<Supercheese>Well, that's not a steam turbine
21:38<drac_boy>true .. still more or less same design :)
21:38<Supercheese>hmm
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21:39<drac_boy>http://boomeria.org/physicslectures/engines/steamturbine.jpg here you can see seperate set of different-sized (aka different hp outputs)
21:39<drac_boy>and yeah thats one big ship indeed
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21:40<drac_boy>supercheese ... btw what you're asking for is pretty much what some powerplants are actually set up as ... initially the fuel is fed to turbine then the waste heat is fed to boiler which only simply boosts the generator output big time
21:41<drac_boy>its a bulky heavy setup so its best for fixed-location purposes such as naturally a powerplant
21:41<drac_boy>its a good way to get more power out of less coal tho heh
21:43<Supercheese>Well, some locomotives were so damn huge they might have been able to pull it off
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21:43<drac_boy>only in usa or russia .. and I mean that :P
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21:43<drac_boy>anywhere else .. you're too likely to run into track weight limit problems
21:43<drac_boy>;)
21:44<Supercheese>true enough
21:44<drac_boy>its a reason why certain locomotives when imported were different ... sometimes for a diesel locomotive it was mainly re getting A1A instead of B trucks as to just make it fit under the axle loading restriction
21:45<drac_boy>or during WWII .. some of the american locomotives sent to uk looked rather weird with their scrunized-down boiler and cab due to the smaller loading gauge they used there :)
21:46<drac_boy>actually there was one railroad in the 1950s that had one such for-uk-but-never-was-actually-sent-there locomotive next to a conventional one ...and even although the two were supposed to be the same they still looked very different
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21:47<drac_boy>the for-uk one having a much lower boiler almost stradding the flanges instead of the chassis ... a short cab that didn't have much view out the top, only the side windows alone ... and even the smokestack had been chopped
21:47<drac_boy>it figures after all supercheese :)
21:50<drac_boy>supercheese which of heres something else: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5074/5801593535_6032c0b614_z.jpg that was what they called "Little Joe" in refer to stalin at the times .. these were built by GE and were supposed to be sent oversea but then sddenly the embargo happened .. so GE sold them to any usa buyer for cheap ... only thing not included in the price was that the rail's own shop had to completely rewire them for
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21:50<drac_boy>usa-normal 1500VDC or 11000VAC voltages instead
21:51<drac_boy>on one particular illinois railroad they were too good that they could overload the substations so to avoid problem with the commuter trams .. they were more or less neglected to only early afternoon and night workings where there was more juice for them
21:52<drac_boy>at least GE managed to not have to scrap them which would had been a sad waste
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21:53<Supercheese>Hah, they overtaxed the power grid, kinda like those huge draglines, eh?
21:54<Supercheese>Fire one of those up at the wrong time of day, boom instant brownout
21:55<drac_boy>supercheese you have to remember that the illinois railroad was only a small-medium time trolley/freight with 1500VDC system ... so a huge locomotive like one of these 'Little Joe' rstarting a heavy freight train at 4pm could throw a wrench into the substation load level
21:55<drac_boy>but at eg 2pm or 9pm there was very few other trains running around in the city so it was easy to leave a lot of juice for these locomotive to kick heavy trains with ease
21:57<drac_boy>the 11000VAC railroads in northeast usa didn't have the problem because they were designed as heavy duty system in the first place (how else could you explain 6+ passenger GG1's and another several freight trains running at the same time in a specific 10km block power section? :)
21:57<drac_boy>getting the idea now supercheese?
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21:58<Supercheese>yep
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21:59<drac_boy>supercheese which of about electric and fast trains....
22:01<drac_boy>supercheese what would you think of a specific trainset that was designed to run fast in the open country on normal dedicated rails and overhead power but then at the end cities suddenly be able to draw off third rail power instead as it squeezed around sharp curves and street-shared rails?
22:02*drac_boy has three images to share if you're still wondering
22:03<Supercheese>sounds sort of like a modern interurban
22:03<drac_boy>thats it running out in the open .. probably doing its usual 80+mph speed too .. http://api.ning.com/files/xwq54lFxZPdytuweHnWjCCiEJG1HHTcLbwIxI5TG6ntrbqmWfAshZQduyg55cC*vbeYhJlGDM-EaSLAa1Jmm7CRgaCE6WWQD/cnsm801a.jpg
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22:03<drac_boy>now becoming a lot slower as it closes downtown at one of the city http://www.retrocom.com/retromilw/images/electroliner6th.jpg
22:04<drac_boy>and then finally squeezing through the elevated lines to reach its main station somewhere a few blocks to the right or something http://chuckmanchicagonostalgia.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/photo-chicago-train-chicago-north-shore-and-milwaukee-electroliner-on-loop-tracks-1958.jpg
22:05<drac_boy>notice how theres no wires to be seen in the third photo which clearly make you look down to see all the third rail "mess" thats obviously visible ;)
22:07<Supercheese>Wish we could do that in OTTD
22:07<drac_boy>this is just in theory but if you tried define such a similar trainset in uk .. it might had been something that would use overhead wires up to just outside london then crawl onward at much lower top speed through the LUL tunnels to reach the downtown station :p
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22:08<drac_boy>but I don't know if anyone over there would had really wanted to try such an idea heh!
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22:09<drac_boy>supercheese you theriocally could do it with a mod to the 2cc trainset grf .. just creat a multi-sections locomotive where one section is coded for overhead power and another section is coded for the third rail tracks ... then the other sections are just unpowered wagons
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22:09<drac_boy>I have no idea how plausible or buggy that may be tho
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22:10<drac_boy>btw supercheese if you want to know .. that train above was called the Electroliner and one full set is actually still preserved somewhere :)
22:10<drac_boy>nice name after all heh
22:12<drac_boy>supercheese before i forget .. its not a famous train or anything .. but the Class 321 in uk was certainly a dual overhead+thirdrail locomotive tho ... and if you missed that discussion before it apparently had to do with lack of clearance in a particular tunnel so they laid third rail through it instead
22:12<Supercheese>I meant the rails-in-road and elevated rails
22:12<Supercheese>we already have dual-powered locos
22:12<drac_boy>heh ok :)
22:12<Supercheese>yeah I think UKRS has that loco
22:12<drac_boy>well elevated lines were quite common in chicago ... called the L line most of the times ... after all subways were too difficult
22:12<Supercheese>or similar
22:13<drac_boy>here's the crazy thing about the L line tho....
22:14<Supercheese>oh it's class 313
22:14<Supercheese>http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=BREL_Class_313
22:14<drac_boy>they had no signals or anything .. everything pretty much more or less operated to timetables so .. it could be a bit crazy to think that trains were only minutes apart even if one was supposed to take a siding for a station stop while the one chasing behind it does not make the same station stop neither
22:14<drac_boy>call it controlled chaos I would imagine :)
22:14<drac_boy>it surprisingly ran just like that for so many years so .... obviously they had it down pretty well
22:15<Supercheese>Yeah, if they had a clean safety record, more power to them
22:17<drac_boy>supercheese theres also another thing with the chicago elevated line....
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22:18<drac_boy>guess what? it was not always passengers :P http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gallery/images/work/ctaS-104e.jpg
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22:18<drac_boy>usually ran at night but sometimes may appear at quiet time during the day too tho
22:19<drac_boy>the locomotives were specifically built for the elevated line duty with overhead+thirdshoe .. but the freight wagons otherwise were just the normal ones forwarded by random freight yards outside chicago
22:19<drac_boy>you can notice how the locomotive seem to have both pole and pantograph indeed
22:20<drac_boy>there were only two locomotives alone in the last several years of service.. numbered S-103 and S-104 .. they could mu together for heavier trains tho
22:20*drac_boy only knew this because of having a magazine article of someone who experienced these trains at a young age and eventually ended up working for them up to its last year of service!
22:21<drac_boy>funny enough the article mentioned that usually S-104 was used if only one locomotive was needed because S-103 sometimes had the bad twitches (as in not always running steady I think)
22:23<drac_boy>supercheese ...a different topic if you don't mind ....
22:24<drac_boy>you know of the old story about dr jekyll and hyde?
22:26<Supercheese>aye
22:27<drac_boy>supercheese heh well some of the older steam locomotives on usa branchlines could be a bit like THAT silly enough..sometimes even shared their stories years later too
22:28<drac_boy>I mean what else when you have a quiet easy locomotive while shoving freights in and out of the industry tracks? well .. wait till you get your train together to head out of town on the old tracks at any speed ... it'll become a hyde with so much cab swaying it could throw someone out of the cab easily if they weren't holding onto something firm!
22:28<Supercheese>Well, Jekyll/Hyde is British, so I figured the railway analogue would be something like Sir Gresley and Dr. Beeching ;)
22:29<drac_boy>in at least one case the article write was the fireman on one such tender locomotive ... he stated that the tender plate was up more of the times than it was down .... !
22:29<drac_boy>talk about really rough ride :)
22:29<Supercheese>Sounds like it needed shock absorbers :P
22:29<drac_boy>supercheese...not really...as soon as the continous running ended .. everything became steady again .. so :)
22:30<drac_boy>still I mean could you imagine how bad a track has to be to keep the tender footplate bouncing in a upward position so much? :P
22:30<drac_boy>talk about a jekyll/hyde like behaviour indeed
22:32<drac_boy>anyway supercheese I'm going to bed...have fun looking up more strange train things yourself if you want to tho ok? :P
22:32<drac_boy>bye now
22:33<Supercheese>vale, amice
22:33*drac_boy wonders why you can't just speak english alone all the times. anyway goodnight :P
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