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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-11-06

---Logopened Tue Nov 06 00:00:12 2012
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02:32<__ln__>god morgon
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02:35<__ln__>och god svenska dagen
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02:45<RavingManiac>Mi ne komprenas
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02:50<NGC3982>Someone said rusty?
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02:50<NGC3982>__ln__: That's not even possible to correct.
02:51<NGC3982>Unless it's "God dag" you are after.
02:52<__ln__>men det är "svenska dagen" i dag!
02:52-!-Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
02:53<__ln__>the intergalactic swedish day.
02:55<NGC3982>It is?
02:55<NGC3982>Neat.
02:56<andythenorth>la la la
02:56<andythenorth>new mines from DanMacK
02:56<andythenorth>pixels are falling from the sky
02:57<NGC3982>__ln__: Using an attribute or an adjective right before that would force you to compress it. "God Sverige-dag" for instance.
02:57<__ln__>no, no, certainly not "Sverige-dag", but "the day of Swedishness"
02:58<RavingManiac>This AI
02:58<NGC3982>"God dag av Svenskhet?"
02:58<NGC3982>haha
02:58<NGC3982>Haha*
02:58<__ln__>NGC3982: http://www.folktinget.fi/sve/svenskan/svenskadagen/
02:58<RavingManiac>Is preventing me from building through its road
02:58<RavingManiac>because the fucking road is completely filled with buses
02:58<NGC3982>__ln__: Svenska dagen != Svenskadagen.
02:59<__ln__>i never said "Svenskadagen"
03:00<NGC3982>No, i noticed.
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03:02<NGC3982>Although: The litteral translation for "Svenska dagen" is "A Swedish day". The litteral translation of "Svenskadagen" is "The day of Swedish".
03:02<NGC3982>Thus, using "God Svenska dagen" does not work.
03:02<NGC3982>Congratulations, by the way.
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03:03<__ln__>to whom? it's not my day.
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03:04<NGC3982>I see
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04:11<@Terkhen>good morning
04:16<Flygon>Yo
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05:23<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> pixels are falling from the sky <-- they used to be called "snow flakes" :p
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06:16<@planetmaker>moin
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06:22<Flygon>Huomenta
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06:37<Flygon>You know what'd be nice?
06:37<Flygon>Groups inside groups
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07:11<NGC3982>Groupception?
07:16<__ln__>it's been rumoured the Apollo moon walks were filmed on earth, in a studio... but i know of a potentially much bigger hoax, if it's true!
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07:34<NGC3982>..
07:35<__ln__>there's some evidence that all of Star Trek is filmed on earth, in a studio!
07:36<NGC3982>Jee-wiz
07:36<__ln__>or would perhaps "sound stage" be the more accurate word for studio...
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>i have a counter-theory: there is evidence that some scenes in star trek are CGI and never really happened, neither in a studio nor in outer space
07:40<__ln__>that's ridiculous
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07:52<NGC3982>Preposterous!
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08:29<dada__>should maybe be a hotkey for "release next vehicle in depot", would be useful in timing their release
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>what's "next"?
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08:49<DanMacK>Hey all
09:01<supermop>hi
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09:19<@Belugas>hello
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09:34<drac_boy>hi
09:34*drac_boy wonders where that silly cheese is and chunks a firewood piece at flygon instead
09:35<Flygon>I'd throw the comission at you
09:35<Flygon>But you'd be so terrified
09:35<Flygon>That you wanna tear your eyes out
09:35<drac_boy>heh heh
09:35<drac_boy>you're just as silly as me sometimes :)
09:35<drac_boy>so..hows the comic strips coming along?
09:35<Flygon>NGC3982: I'm being quite serious. eg. I want a group for a specific area. And then subgroups for routes inside the area.
09:35<Flygon>drac_boy: One page to go
09:36<drac_boy>groups...subgroups....do you mean in the vehicle lists?
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09:39<drac_boy>flygon?
09:39<Flygon>Yes
09:39<NGC3982>Flygon: I guess that's a good idea, if more then one man will use it. ;)
09:40<drac_boy>flygon hmm well I don't know because in first place I've never used groups much because the list is always sorted by name instead
09:41<Flygon>Ah
09:41<Flygon>NGC3982: I may not be the only!
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09:47<drac_boy>flygon it doesn't take too much to figure out something like 'berlin bahn w 4' anyway ;)
09:47<Flygon>drac_boy: I actually ask the feature for ease of refreshing old rollingstock :p
09:47<drac_boy>long version of the name: fourth short train on a shuttle route west of berlin
09:48<Flygon>Ah
09:48<Flygon>Here
09:48<Flygon>The same car configuration goes across 95% of the suburban network
09:48<Flygon>3+3 of either Hitachi, Comeng, Siemens, or X'trap
09:48<Flygon>Guess which wasn't named after a compan
09:48<Flygon>company*
09:50<drac_boy>btw flygon about experimental trains that had short life....
09:52<drac_boy>there was a short attempt at lightweight articulated trainsets on NYC and NH rails .. they had tube-like coaches that were much lower than conventional coaches etc ...
09:53<drac_boy>both only ran for a short time then were slidelined for good, this is the NH one http://www.nhrhta.org/images/photo3.jpg ... and guess the weird part...
09:53<Flygon>Lightweight trailers hauled by locomotives?
09:53<drac_boy>on the press run for the NH one ... the train caught fire just outside the station ... who would had thought this would point to its then-short life? :)
09:53<Flygon>Oh wow
09:53<Flygon>Hahaha
09:53<Flygon>Never
09:53<drac_boy>and btw the locomotives were special diesel-hydraulic ones created to match these new trainsets
09:53<Flygon>Do a press release with a train
09:54<Flygon>It killed the APT, it killed the V/Line Bluebird (Gearbox overheated, and nearly blew up)
09:54<drac_boy>they had a small engine in defer of the much lighter train
09:54<Flygon>Oh good god
09:54<Flygon>Hahaha
09:54<drac_boy>it worked actually .. the problem was the general reliability of the train in general tho
09:55<drac_boy>900hp in each end plus 'modern' wagons that weighted half as much as a normal coach
09:55<Flygon>Oh
09:55<Flygon>900hp
09:55<Flygon>...that's more powerful than V/Line's P-class services :D
09:55<drac_boy>you have to remember that the early Zephyr was a 5-car trainset with only a single 500-600hp powerplant up front .. it worked still :)
09:56<drac_boy>the original 3-car one was even smaller distilled fuel (not diesel) engine
09:56<Flygon>It didn't have to go on lines that were also occupied by 160-200km/h trains :p
09:57<drac_boy>flygon btw the Zephyr actually was meant to do 70+mph ... it had to otherwise it would had never held competition in the battle for speed with milwaukee and C&NW
09:57<drac_boy>the three railroads had more or less the same two endpoints but different routes inbetween
09:58<Flygon>Seems wasteful
09:58<drac_boy>not surprisingly C&NW actually touted '400 miles in 400 minutes' .. guess what kind of speed that was?
09:58<drac_boy>flygon...with so much passengers to move it actually was the norm
09:58<Flygon>Wow
09:59<Flygon>60mph?
09:59<Flygon>100km/h?
09:59<drac_boy>flygon...add in the many intermidate station stops .. and you have to do with a much higher average speed
09:59<drac_boy>so take a second guess
10:00<Flygon>130-160km/h??
10:00<drac_boy>its no wonder the famous F7 locomotives were known for doing 80+mph runs easily. heres a photo if you need to remember what a F7 was again: http://www.germansteam.co.uk/FastestLoco/fastloco-08.jpg
10:00<drac_boy>flygon yeah there you go :)
10:00<Flygon>Puts Australia to shame :p
10:01<drac_boy>flygon theres another thing to think about....
10:02<drac_boy>just before the 1920s most trains were always the slow conventional trains ... there was no serious attempt at speedups ... but then the 1930 depression hit ... and by the 1930s it seem like everyone want to try outdo each others which explained all the bursts of modern fast trains
10:02<drac_boy>even B&O was in the act too as obvious by the very early pre-FT diesels from emd .. then there being the many different Zephyr's .. etc
10:04<drac_boy>of course 1940 almost everything had to come to an end .. axed track maintenance and higher loadings both altogether made speed take a backseat
10:04<Flygon>Heh
10:04<Flygon>Shame WWII happened...
10:04<drac_boy>so what used to be a limited-stop 80mph express soon became a heavyweights-mixed all-stopping 50mph train
10:04<Flygon>America could have had a Shinkansen revolution by 1945
10:05<Flygon>Well
10:05<drac_boy>flygon...mind you there were a few things in uk that 'would had been' if WWII had not happened ....
10:05<Flygon>North-East, anyway
10:05<Flygon>Such as UK-wide electrification
10:05<Flygon>Yes, I know
10:05<Flygon>Man, if WWII didn't happen
10:05<Flygon>Australia would have probably tried to build 4-16-4 steam locomotives by 1955 :p
10:05<drac_boy>gresley was working on a new mallard but that was cut due to war .. and the funny thing was SR was trying to push ahead on electrification but war put a break on that which only meant southern steam was saved
10:06<drac_boy>and of course the V2's (the one that had the monoblocks yeah) got a bit punished by overloaded trains during the war that its not a surprise only a few were in good condition after the war
10:07<drac_boy>eg a single train of 22 coaches unassisted .. thats a lot for one locomotive :-s
10:07<Flygon>It rather is!
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10:08<Flygon>I feel sorry for the shoveler
10:09<drac_boy>flygon btw WWII may have helped rail traffics in usa but .. post-war was a rapid shamble ... overegulated by the govs did not help things much .. thats why two major railroads really went bankrupt big time .. and the 1971 amtrak act was mainly a move to save the remaining freight trains from disappearing
10:09<Flygon>Indeed
10:09<plhalaser>hi i want ask its here someone who have mingw/msys on 64bit win7?
10:09<drac_boy>of course there was the creation of Conrail which rather needed a LOT of government money (think billions) its first few years but soon finally proved itself as a lean profitting company that soon was privatized
10:11<Flygon>(for some fun, take a second to realize that one of the only 'fast trains' in the world allowed to go over 115-130km/h in Australia is the American Alcoa Express: All the others fail to tick all the boxes that Australian regulation wants ticked)
10:11<Flygon>(usually crashworthiness)
10:12<drac_boy>flygon the two major rails that disappeared was Rock Island due to overregulation ineptness and PC (which was really PRR+NH to start with by then) being undone finally by doctored books -- they were actually losing more than $1M per day!!
10:12<Flygon>(this is something Cityrail realized when they tried to import a set of trains from China, instead of Australia, to get them faster and cheaper... only to find out they needed to extensively rebuild the brand new delivered trains just so they could be legally run on test runs. The end result ended up costing more and running years overtime)
10:13<drac_boy>when you remember that PRR and NH altogether owned a billion of routes in northeast usa which was the industry hotspot of usa before .. you can understand how crazy their bankruptions must had been
10:15<drac_boy>btw if you didn't know: Conrail is long gone, its CSX and NS altogether who owns different pieces of what used to be Conrail's network
10:15<Flygon>Urf...
10:15<Flygon>Just a personal note
10:15<Flygon>I've never been a fan of splitting rail companies apart
10:15<Flygon>Best to keep them state or nationally owned, along with the tracks
10:16<drac_boy>flygon I know but it was a crazy bidding war .. CSX initially thought it was getting it but NS made a surprising higher bid ... raged on for a bit of while then finally it was more or less a split bid
10:16<Flygon>V/Line nearly imploded because the state Government tried to split and privatize it...
10:16<drac_boy>so thats why the dividing up
10:16<Flygon>Ah
10:18<drac_boy>flygon mind you one particular set of mergers in usa was ... just a bad mess
10:18<Flygon>Hm?
10:19<drac_boy>first it used to be that SP took over D&RGW .. that one was ok at the end but still needing some more work ... but UP took SP and major meltdowns started :-s
10:20<Flygon>Meltdowns?
10:21<drac_boy>yeah as in stuck up yards and other things? :)
10:21<Flygon>Far out
10:22<Flygon>Sounds like fuuun
10:23<plhalaser>need some help with install xz or lzma. mingw dont want a make config without lzma and without lzma a get same error as is on wiki page
10:24<drac_boy>flygon of course there was the attempted SP/SF which was strongly denied
10:24<Flygon>Just a note
10:24<Flygon>I really must sleep sooooon x.x
10:24<Flygon>TAFE tomorrow
10:24<drac_boy>interestingly enough some locomotives had already been painted into the new SF name+colours
10:24<Flygon>Gotta wake up @ 10, and it's 2:24 x:
10:25<drac_boy>ok bye then flygon
10:25<Flygon>Thank you
10:25<Flygon>And sorry
10:26*drac_boy whacks you with a pillow
10:26<drac_boy>:P
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10:50<andythenorth>hi hi
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10:54<NGC3982>Evening.
10:55<drac_boy>hi andythenorth
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11:07<DanMacK>Hey Andy
11:07<andythenorth>hi DanMacK
11:09<DanMacK>YGM
11:09<andythenorth>yeah, so "not buildable" makes sense
11:10<DanMacK>thought so
11:12<andythenorth>mines are nice
11:12<andythenorth>opengfx shades the roofs wrong
11:12<andythenorth>I'll fix all that ;)
11:12<andythenorth>I have code working for 'graphics by date'
11:12-!-Pixa [~pixa@85.210.66.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:12<andythenorth>although opinion here was that it is a bad feature
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11:15<DanMacK>graphics by date?
11:15<andythenorth>yup
11:16<DanMacK>why is that a bad feature?
11:16<andythenorth>dunno :)
11:16<andythenorth>I didn't do a good job of finding out tbh
11:16<andythenorth>code works for it though
11:16<DanMacK>have it as a parameter for those that don't want it
11:17<@planetmaker>andythenorth, "graphics by date" is not really a bad feature... should it?
11:17<@planetmaker>it just depends on how it's used... after all we do that with grain mill e.g. already, not?
11:18<@planetmaker>it just should be made sure that the build date of the industry is used. Not the current date.
11:18<@planetmaker>otoh, if layouts are time-dependently introduced... doesn't matter even then
11:18<DanMacK>The upgrading graphics that TTRS uses... is that possible w/industries?
11:19<@planetmaker>upgrading in what sense? But the answer 99.5% is "yes"
11:19<DanMacK>the animated exploding of the old hispital building for instance
11:19<@planetmaker>yes, that's feasible
11:19<DanMacK>and new buildings built
11:19<DanMacK>so an industry can change appearance over time
11:20<@planetmaker>would work via animation frames
11:20<DanMacK>any way to trigger it for a certain date?
11:21<@planetmaker>yes.
11:21<andythenorth>the way I've coded it is based on years
11:21<@planetmaker>case date of:
11:21<andythenorth>after date xxxx, graphics change
11:21*DanMacK thinks construction graphics had better be drawn before destruction ones
11:21<@planetmaker>0...1950: frame 0
11:21<@planetmaker>1950: animate_reconstruction_switch;
11:21<@planetmaker>1951: frame 3
11:22<@planetmaker>along those lines at least
11:22<andythenorth>I do it by switching spriteset
11:22<plhalaser>hi i need a little help with install xz or lzma on mingw, i install everything as on wiki step by step. i try to use 64 bit version. problem is when i try to make config before make of openttd i get error lzma not found, when i use without lzma, make made same error as is on bottom page on wiki
11:22<andythenorth>as the sprites may be animated already ;)
11:23<@planetmaker>yes, works the same, andythenorth ^
11:23<@planetmaker>andythenorth, but reconstruction is an animation sequence itself. need be
11:23<@planetmaker>unless you want to base it really on days. not years. Also feasible
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11:24<andythenorth>maybe we don't need reconstruction :)
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11:25<@planetmaker>andythenorth, a simple flip of graphics would look very odd. Then I'd prefer to not change looks
11:25<@planetmaker>and only use new looks for newly founded industries
11:25<@planetmaker>-1 ;-)
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11:25<andythenorth>ok
11:26<andythenorth>useful feedback thanks
11:26<andythenorth>I think it is weird if entire building changes all at once
11:26<@planetmaker>yup, that ^
11:26<andythenorth>especially as currently there is no random offset for each industry instance
11:26<DanMacK>Agreed
11:26<andythenorth>e.g. in 1960 all instances change
11:26<andythenorth>in many cases the changes will be small, e.g. steam crane -> diesel crane
11:26<DanMacK>That happens in TTRS, but there's animation to go with it
11:27<andythenorth>yeah, I think animation is out of scope for 49+ industries
11:27<@planetmaker>andythenorth, what would work is to draw maybe one destruction stage and then just change to the 1st or 0th (however you count) construction stage of the new look
11:27<andythenorth>we don't even have snow done yet, and zero construction states done
11:27<@planetmaker>ok, changes steam crane -> diesel crane needs no special change. That's of course ok
11:27<DanMacK>long term thoughts in my head :P
11:27<andythenorth>borrow the explosion sprites from base set for destruction? :P
11:27<@planetmaker>of course feasible. No problem
11:27<andythenorth>and use a palette transform to black?
11:27<@planetmaker>why?
11:28<andythenorth>for the building sprite ;)
11:28<@planetmaker>it'd be like using bulldozer... so why would it be black and not firey?
11:28<andythenorth>few frames of black
11:28<andythenorth>with explosion overlay
11:28<andythenorth>like crashed trains
11:28<@planetmaker>ah... hm... ... rather empty tile then
11:29<@planetmaker>after the explosion
11:29<@planetmaker>plhalaser, not sure which page and error you refer to nor do I use mingw or windows myself. But likely the lib is not in your path (or not installed at all)
11:29*DanMacK thinks andy is right about snow/construction stages
11:31<@planetmaker>But using an explosion and displaying an empty tile afterwards for some time might work
11:31<andythenorth>he
11:31<andythenorth>well, we'll see
11:31<@planetmaker>:-)
11:31<andythenorth>the option of going by build date is easier :)
11:31<andythenorth>btw, construction stages I might have a plan for
11:31<DanMacK>Andy, have you got a pile driver sprite?
11:31<andythenorth>involving plain ground with bulldozers
11:31<andythenorth>I have a crane
11:31<DanMacK>can be modded
11:32<andythenorth>hang on, there have been sprites for construction states for about 3 years
11:32<andythenorth>I'll find them
11:32<DanMacK>PM them to me (or upload)
11:32<DanMacK>please :)
11:32<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I have also a crane... extracted from TTRS
11:32<andythenorth>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/firs/raw/656b70884867fe3fe2c0821662d1f40cec69aa92/graphics_sources/default_construction_state/default_construction_state.png
11:32<DanMacK>I have a few ideas
11:32<@planetmaker>the yellow, big, high construction one
11:33<@planetmaker>it's somewhere in OpenGFX in one of the xcf files
11:33<@planetmaker>factory
11:33<@planetmaker>iirc
11:33<DanMacK>Is Zimmlock's stuff GPL?
11:33<DanMacK>I PM'd him about some bits from TTRS
11:33<@planetmaker>it is creative commons by attribution
11:34<DanMacK>so credit and you can use it
11:34<@planetmaker>I made changes and released the stuff as gpl v2
11:34<@planetmaker>yes
11:34<DanMacK>awesome
11:34<@planetmaker>(well compatible to cc-by, reading the license terms coming with ttrs 3.10)
11:35<@planetmaker>or was 3.01 the "original"? whatever
11:36<@planetmaker>in any case no issue with FIRS :-)
11:37<@planetmaker>and yes, I was very happy and nicely surprised when I discovered that we could "just" keep maintaining that set. And borrowing stuff from it for others
11:37<@planetmaker>giving the attributions to whom attribution is due
11:38*DanMacK needs to get ready for work
11:38<DanMacK>Later all :D
11:38<DanMacK>BBIAB
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11:38<plhalaser>planetmaker, wiki.openttd.org compiling with mingw64
11:38<@planetmaker>enjoy...
11:40<@planetmaker>link, plhalaser ?
11:42<plhalaser>http://wiki.openttd.org/User:Gremnon
11:44<plhalaser>its there, if i use without lzma i get error, but i had same issue with 32bit version on win vista
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11:45*NGC3982 loves the Andy cranes.
11:46<plhalaser>want ask for any help or any chance how install xz with lzma on 64bit version successful
11:46<NGC3982>Star Trek has the Jefferies Tube's, OpenTTD has the Andy Cranes.
11:46<NGC3982>I like that.
11:46<NGC3982>Yeah.
11:47<@planetmaker>ehm. You notice that it is a *user* page?
11:49<NGC3982>andythenorth: I notice that i often make fun of you.
11:49<andythenorth>you do?
11:49<NGC3982>andythenorth: Might i also add that it's mostly in jealousy.
11:49<NGC3982>Well, i think i do.
11:49<NGC3982>:P
11:50<@planetmaker>I guess then I'm out of clues. But you might want to follow the MinGW guide for mingw32, plhalaser
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11:50*andythenorth is blind to being made fun of
11:50<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_MinGW
11:51<plhalaser>ill try it
11:52<@planetmaker>That will work on windows 64bit, too. plhalaser, but that said, you're of course very welcome to add instructions when you find out how to get it run with mingw64
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12:00<plhalaser>if i find any solution, but im in this novice
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12:01<@planetmaker>well. First try the tested approach for mingw32 then :-)
12:01<@planetmaker>mingw64 is already announced on that user page as both, WIP and not working...
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12:04<plhalaser>planetmaker you are one from developers of ottd, what you ussing for compiling
12:05<BtbN>I'd prefer MSVC over mingw for compiling on Windows. Mingw, especialy its 64bit version, has some problems
12:08<andythenorth>what's wrong with GCC?
12:08<andythenorth>oh, windows?
12:08<NGC3982>andythenorth: May i PM you?
12:09<andythenorth>no
12:09<andythenorth>discuss in public channel
12:09<NGC3982>Allright
12:09-!-Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@5ED1CCB7.cm-7-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
12:09<NGC3982>Would you have any personal issues with people making "addons" to FIRS?
12:10-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd
12:10<NGC3982>For instance, Industry NewGRF's that are made only to be used together with FIRS.
12:12<@planetmaker>plhalaser, I use gcc. But myself I only compile on osx (x86_64, i386, sometimes ppc) and on linux (amd64 arch)
12:12<@planetmaker>using gcc in all cases
12:13<@planetmaker>s/compile/work and use/
12:15<andythenorth>FIRS has one cargo free
12:15<andythenorth>and a number of industry slots
12:15<andythenorth>add-ons are part of the spec
12:16<@planetmaker>do the free slots, both cargo and industries change throughout FIRS versions, andythenorth ?
12:17<andythenorth>cargo yes
12:17<andythenorth>industries, somewhat
12:17<andythenorth>I would look at FIRS 2 codebase tbh, e.g. current nightly
12:18<andythenorth>maybe it should get a grfid bump too
12:18<andythenorth>production behaviour is changed, worth a bump
12:18<@planetmaker>maybe you can define the dummies, andythenorth and give them a clear name in the code - so that they don't get accidentially used an changed
12:18<@planetmaker>andythenorth, not really worth the bump. Just change min_compatible_version....
12:19<andythenorth>think I did that, possibly :P
12:19<@planetmaker>funny that you call it also FIRS 2 while there was never even anything after 0.7-beta
12:19<@planetmaker>I'd still call it 1.0
12:19<@planetmaker>after all... it never had been in a state where one - especially you - would say "it's done", right?
12:21<andythenorth>could be 1.0
12:21<andythenorth>I think there will be lots of whining about supplies
12:21<@planetmaker>are they gone?
12:21<andythenorth>so calling it FIRS 2 appeals
12:21<andythenorth>no supplies are present
12:21<@planetmaker>so why should there be whining?
12:22<andythenorth>[meaning, no, supplies are *stll* present]
12:22<andythenorth>changed mechanic
12:22<@planetmaker>FIRS always had supplies, right?
12:22<andythenorth>yes
12:22<@planetmaker>I didn't follow each step... how does it work now?
12:22*andythenorth digresses - so some of these IDs could be IND_RESERVED_ID http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/global_constants.py
12:23<andythenorth>supplies are a boost behaviour now
12:23<andythenorth>deliver supplies for n month boost
12:23<andythenorth>not a permanent increase
12:23<@planetmaker>haven't they always been?
12:23<@planetmaker>ah
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12:23<andythenorth>it's better, but still has issues
12:23<@planetmaker>nah. That change is not worth a bump 1->2
12:24<andythenorth>FIRS 1.0 then
12:24<@planetmaker>it changes a bit how they increase production. But it doesn't change the principle: supplies increase production
12:24<andythenorth>yup
12:25<@planetmaker>for how long does this boost last? 3 months?
12:25<@planetmaker>and how does a primary increase production? (sorry my curious asking :-) )
12:25<@planetmaker>I should play more :-P
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12:25<andythenorth>about 3 months or so
12:26<andythenorth>it works nicely
12:26<andythenorth>but has one horrible positive feedback loop
12:26<@planetmaker>positive feedback?
12:26<@planetmaker>in what way?
12:26<andythenorth>if you have say, coal -> steel -> ensp -> mine
12:26<andythenorth>and you get a train jam
12:26<andythenorth>and you don't notice
12:26<andythenorth>then you get *lots* of train jams
12:27<andythenorth>because all traffic collapses rapidly
12:27<@planetmaker>that's not your issue
12:27<andythenorth>a bit like real life :P
12:27<@planetmaker>it's bad network design ;-)
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12:27<andythenorth>hyper-connected networks :P
12:27<andythenorth>currently, if the EU or US economies collapse, I suffer
12:27<DanMacK>Back for a bit :D
12:27<andythenorth>not because I sell to EU or US, but because I sell to Australia
12:28<andythenorth>and Australia sells iron ore to China
12:28<andythenorth>China depends on EU & US
12:28<@planetmaker>lol
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>you're doomed!
12:29<@planetmaker>welcome to the connected and globalized world, I guess
12:31<andythenorth>planetmaker: you should try a FIRS game
12:31<andythenorth>supplies are objectively better
12:32<andythenorth>previous mechanic caused large surplus to build up quite quickly
12:32<andythenorth>but it's still not perfected imo
12:32<andythenorth>also there is a new NoCarGoal script...
12:32<@planetmaker>no time to play till Christmas :-(
12:32<andythenorth>also...economies are 'done' ;)
12:32<andythenorth>i.e. the framework is done
12:32<DanMacK>Indeed?
12:32<andythenorth>there are 2 economies
12:33<@planetmaker>yes, I followed discussion / commits loosely... I'm quite curious about that :-)
12:33<andythenorth>'Basic' needs works
12:33<andythenorth>-s
12:33<DanMacK>But basic has some good stuff
12:33<andythenorth>I prefer the idea of climate-specific 'basic'
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>i need a new pen...
12:34<andythenorth>I think the loss of climate-specific stuff is a backwards step
12:34<@planetmaker>climate-specifics are nice, yes. Though.. what would even be nicer is like ogfx-industries: have a climate-default but allow override via parameter ;-)
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: let "basic" be a slight modification of the default, with added supplies mechanism?
12:35<@planetmaker>^ sounds actually not bad
12:35<@planetmaker>as closely as FIRS allows that
12:36<@planetmaker>that "as closely" might be the difficult part. FIRS is structured quite differently
12:37<andythenorth>docs are probably online
12:37<andythenorth>actually not
12:37<andythenorth>but they're in the bundle
12:37<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/
12:37<oskari89>andythenorth: current FIRS cargo chart, where?
12:38<@planetmaker>ingame. industry chain view :-)
12:38<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1892/
12:38<andythenorth>$someone should generate the chart from the source code
12:38<andythenorth>rather than relying on the website that may not be in date
12:38<@planetmaker>andythenorth, 20 cargos is still a lot. is less feasible for basic?
12:38<andythenorth>needs to be fewer imo
12:39<andythenorth>but there is a limit where chains break
12:39<@planetmaker>andythenorth, use one supply in basic (instead of 3)?
12:39<andythenorth>btw, I can have FIRS compiler output json or something
12:39<DanMacK>Possibly look at the default chain and work backwards?
12:40<andythenorth>I really want to avoid modifying production code
12:40<andythenorth>economies modifies industry / cargo availability, and certain static properties (cargo payment, industry probability etc)
12:41<oskari89>I think that FIRS economy is quite good.
12:41<DanMacK>Supplies doesn't add that much more complexity as they are optional...
12:41<oskari89>It gives realistic things to transport :)
12:41<andythenorth>I am happy to include any sane, coherent economy
12:42*planetmaker wonders why wood, steel and ore and coal are not "realistic" ;-)
12:42<DanMacK>Indeed
12:42<andythenorth>so if anyone wants a 'planetmaker economy' or an 'Eddi|zuHause economy' etc that's fine
12:42<@planetmaker>haha :-)
12:42<andythenorth>we can have 2 economies or 20
12:42<andythenorth>20 is probably 10 too many, but meh
12:42<DanMacK>It also makes it much more customizable
12:43<@planetmaker>andythenorth, what about defining "chains" which can be selected via parameter?
12:44<@planetmaker>but I guess that goes perpendicular to economies...
12:44<DanMacK>So is it possible to swap out cargos for an economy? So you can work from a larger pool?
12:44<DanMacK>That's similar to ecs...
12:44<DanMacK>But parameter instead of newgrf
12:45<@planetmaker>yes, true
12:46<Ammler>andythenorth: don't forget the "Ammler economy", we talked about years ago :-P
12:46<DanMacK>Isn't that stuff and things?
12:47<andythenorth>Ammler: +1
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'm thinking two parameters: 1) economy: {basic, agriculture, car-suppliers, ...} and 2) climate-variation: {autodetect, temperate, arctic, desert}
12:47<andythenorth>orthogonal? or ?
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>where the climate may define stuff like food/water effects or completely different import/export schemes
12:50<Ammler>maybe better name like "original cargos"
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>like the desert version of agriculture economy could focus on exporting biofuel or something
12:51<DanMacK>Off to work... bbl
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12:57<andythenorth>currently economy is quite simple
12:57<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/industries/aluminium_plant.py
12:57<andythenorth>industry enabled / disaled; over-rides on certain props
12:59-!-DanMacK [~AndChat61@74.198.9.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:59<andythenorth>trying to avoid combinatorial explosion
12:59<andythenorth>and / or unintended consequences of bad combinations
13:00<Ammler>oh
13:00<Ammler>so your economy is industry based only? :'-(
13:03<andythenorth>cargos as well
13:03<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/cargos/alcohol.py
13:04<Ammler>but how does a industry work, where a cargo is diabled?
13:04<andythenorth>ottd is pretty clever about that
13:04<andythenorth>FIRS secondary production code is less clever :P
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>by "export" i mean a "port" industry that must be near large bodies of water or near the map border
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13:16<andythenorth>yup
13:16<andythenorth>dan + me have that idea in mind
13:17<andythenorth>your proposal is 1:1 same as Dan's I think
13:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: "you too could become a FIRS developer" :P
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13:24<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so what else does climate define?
13:25<andythenorth>dan was thinking for exampe, tropic has bauxite -> metal chain, instead of iron ore + coal -> metal chain
13:25<andythenorth>example *
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>that depends on the economy
13:25<Supercheese>Why shouldn't temperate have bauxite chain?
13:26<andythenorth>why should it?
13:27<Supercheese>I'd wager "Transport ALL the cargo!" is a popular sentiment
13:27<Supercheese>also, I like the bauxite chain :P
13:27<andythenorth>yeah ok
13:27<andythenorth>but I don't get it in that case
13:27<andythenorth>why bother with economies at all?
13:27*Supercheese shrugs
13:28<Supercheese>Oh, also we had a bauxite plant up here on the Washington State side of the border, until it closed down a few years ago
13:28<andythenorth>I don't understand how to provide 'all the cargos' and 'there are too many cargos' in one grf
13:28<Supercheese>of course, they received their shipments from overseas, IIRC
13:28<andythenorth>I find that kind of thing depressing tbh
13:29<Supercheese>Have a parameter that switches from "ALL the cargos" and "Only some cargos"?
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you think of temperate as first world and desert as 3rd world, then bauxite might be an imported cargo in temperate, but the desert economy lacks secondary industries
13:29<andythenorth>"yes, we'd like it entirely in black, but also entirely in white, thanks, mm ok"
13:31<andythenorth>so now the propoal is economies AND climates AND control over cargoes?
13:31<andythenorth>when do I get to say "compile your own grf?" :P
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>like, extending on the default saw mill, the desert economy starts out with agriculture and ports, but new secondary industries must be funded
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the available cargos get defined by the available industries
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>everything else doesn't make sense
13:32<Supercheese>I'd be ok with "compile your own grf", but yeah I don't think most would be :P
13:32<Supercheese>well, as long as we're compiling in NML that is
13:32<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: doesn't make sense to me either ;)
13:33<andythenorth>mind, I have run out of codeine here :P
13:34<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: cargos could vary slightly independently from industries
13:34<andythenorth>some industries depend on certain cargos, others don't depend
13:34<andythenorth>or at least, function if cargos are missing
13:35<andythenorth>notably primaries
13:35<andythenorth>and also black holes
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so an industry has two sets of cargos: "strong" and "weak" ones. a cargo is included if at least one industry has it as "strong" one
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13:35<@Alberth>moin
13:35<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: this sounds plausible
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>so e.g. a bauxite mine has bauxite as strong cargo and engineering supplies as weak cargo
13:36<andythenorth>it would remove the need to define cargos
13:36<andythenorth>could be auto-calculated
13:37<andythenorth>hmm
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>or the strong/weak thing is only for output cargos?
13:38<andythenorth>input is much harder
13:38<andythenorth>ensp is a dependency for implementation reasons
13:39<andythenorth>removing it means a lot of conditional production code and string code
13:39<andythenorth>simple code
13:39<andythenorth>but who would write it? o_O
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13:42<andythenorth>"if not accepted, disable cargo?"
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24666 trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt (2012-11-06 18:45:08 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>latvian - 4 changes by Parastais
13:45-!-TrueBrain_ is now known as TrueBrain
13:45<TrueBrain>the world rejoices, I returned!
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13:49<andythenorth>lo TrueBrain
13:49<TrueBrain>a week without internet ... THE HORROR
13:49<andythenorth>can we have new bananas yet?
13:49<TrueBrain>what part of: no internet, dont you understand? :P
13:50<andythenorth>offline coding, right?
13:50<andythenorth>a quiet sprint
13:50<andythenorth>away from distractions...
13:50<TrueBrain>no documentation ....
13:50<TrueBrain>you only notice how often you use the internet if you dont have it :P
13:50-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
13:52<andythenorth>:P
13:52<andythenorth>I now have rage with no internet
13:52<andythenorth>I used to sometimes go away to places with no internet and it was ok
13:52<andythenorth>but now I am addicted I think
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14:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so 'climate' might modify town effect, an import/export industry type, what else?
14:09<andythenorth>it currently modifies 'sugar beet' / 'sugarcane' string
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14:17<LordAro>evenings
14:17<@Alberth>evenink
14:18<LordAro>hai Alberth
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14:29*LordAro is seriously considering moving to Arch linux
14:30<LordAro>but how stable is it? debian unstable stability? debian testing stability?
14:32<plhalaser>sorry im completely twat from msvc, where is button or sommething for compiling?
14:32<__ln__>F7
14:37<plhalaser>it do nothing
14:38<Zuu>Did you open the solution?
14:38<Zuu>.sln
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>plhalaser: in the menu it's called something like "build solution"
14:38-!-kero [~keikoz@1.4.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd
14:41<@Alberth>LordAro: if it crashes too often, it is non-stable :p
14:42<@Alberth>the more bleeding edge you use, the more risk on problems with stability, you cannot have both bleeding edge and stability at the same time
14:42<andythenorth>my computer crashed recently
14:42<andythenorth>silly thing
14:43<kero>Using Windows ? :o)
14:44<plhalaser>:( i download ottd source open it in msvc. then build solution. that do nothing just write 1 succeeded. i cant find any .exe
14:44<plhalaser>win7 64. vdmc32
14:44<Zuu>Unless your computer is insanely fast, you need more than one second.
14:44<Zuu>My k7 3,6 GHz take 40 seconds to build OpenTTD. :-)
14:45<@Yexo>plhalaser: 1 succeeded and how many failed?
14:45<plhalaser>0
14:45<@Yexo>are you sure you did "build solution" and not "build project"?
14:45<@Alberth>Zuu: so you need about 40 such computers :p
14:46<plhalaser>yes solution. :(
14:46<Zuu>Alberth: probably even more
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14:47<@Alberth>42? at 1u high, you have a nice rack full of them :p
14:47<Zuu>Oh, and that is the debug build that takes 40 seconds. If I want a release build it takes about twice that as linking then takes "lots of time".
14:48<@Alberth>just never do that :)
14:49<Zuu>Running AIs or GSs in fast forward is kind of slow in debug mode. :-)
14:49<andythenorth>does windows crash? I have not seen a windows crash for years.
14:49<@Yexo>I see one about once a week
14:50<plhalaser>mg why. i had only once working station for compiling gcc i thing on xp. few years ago. on vista and 7 i cant successfully install lzma on mingw
14:50<@Alberth>andythenorth: neither have I, but perhaps because I have no windows machines nearby?
14:51<Zuu>plhalaser: Which msvc version do you use?
14:51<Zuu>Which number was it in the solution that you opened?
14:52<kero>andythenorth : it's to late. The reputation of being a crasful OS is definetely there now
14:52<plhalaser>11.0
14:52<Zuu>Eg. did you open the 100 .sln for msvc 2010 (or 90 for 2008)
14:52<plhalaser>from 2012
14:53<Zuu>2012 probably should have a solution file including number 110 in the name
14:53<plhalaser>instaled one hour ago
14:53<@Yexo>we don't have a project that yet, but the msvc 2010 file should work
14:53<TrueBrain>grrr, stupid Raspberry PI ... ordered new SDs, fails horribly :(
14:54<andythenorth>hmm
14:55<andythenorth>FIRS mixed farm produces livestock & plant fibres. Arable farm produces sugar (beet / cane) & grain
14:55<andythenorth>should mixed farm produce livestock & grain; arable farm plant fibres and sugar?
14:55<plhalaser>have someone experience with mingw64? any way how to install xz or lzma corectly? os w7 64
14:56<Zuu>Do you need to run mingw64 on w7 64, can't you run mngw32?
14:56<Zuu>Of course you'll get a 32bit OpenTTD binary with maximum memory usage of 2 GB, but I don't see that as a problem.
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: does that really matter?
14:57<andythenorth>it does when trying to make a minimal economy (perhaps)
14:57<plhalaser>5 min ill be back
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>"minimal economy" means each farm only produces one output
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>means e.g. one grain-producing and one livestock-producing
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>skip fibres and sugar
14:59<andythenorth>I have been trying to reduce it to fewest number of industries possible
14:59<andythenorth>but that leaves only grain as a farm cargo
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds fine
15:00<DanMacK>Id say switch the cargos for familiarity
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>keep in mind that you will want to keep this "minimal food chain" for things like the automobile industry economy
15:00<DanMacK>So stock and grain
15:00<DanMacK>Bbiab
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>and maybe in desert economy remove grain and keep sugar as food-producing cargo?
15:03<andythenorth>hm
15:03<andythenorth>DanMacK: before you go - we need a sugar cane mill for tropic ;)
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15:12<plhalaser>back. on 32bit i have problem with most of libs because missing ddls. only on 64bit i was able install all needed for ottd. but xz was probably instaled without or corupted lzma
15:12<plhalaser>and sorry for bad english, my best teacher was fallout tactics
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15:20<andythenorth>hmm
15:20<andythenorth>so industry-changing-graphics-by-time
15:20<andythenorth>needs at minimum random offset per industry instance
15:20<andythenorth>how to do that?
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15:22<andythenorth>current code is http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/firs.py#L301
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15:40<@Yexo>andythenorth: replace "current_year" by "(current_year + random_bits % 5)" to get 0 to 4 years delay
15:40<@Yexo>%10 to get 0 to 10 years, etc.
15:40<andythenorth>win
15:40<andythenorth>modulus is a funny thing
15:41<andythenorth>I've read the wikipedia article on it
15:41<andythenorth>none the wiser though :)
15:41<andythenorth>are random bits consistent? Not changed by animation triggers or such?
15:41<@Yexo>I don't think industry random bits can be changed
15:42<andythenorth>great
15:43<Rubidium>pff...
15:43<Rubidium>modulo and random
15:43<Rubidium>if it's not a power of two, then you're biasing it towards current_year instead of current_year + modulo ;)
15:44<andythenorth>ha
15:44<andythenorth>Yexo: that's using per-tile bits :)
15:44<andythenorth>which has an interesting effect
15:45<andythenorth>I'd keep it, it adds more variety...but graphics may span tiles :P
15:45<@Yexo>oh, right, you're doing this in tile scope
15:45<@Yexo>you'll probably need to insert a switch in between to store the industry random bits in a temp var
15:45<andythenorth>it's quite nice that one building changes at a time
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15:46<@Yexo>apparently there is no way to get the random bits of another tile
15:47<andythenorth>nml docs don't list random_bits for tiles at all afaict
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15:47<andythenorth>why does it work?
15:47<@Yexo>that the documention doesn't list a variable doesn't mean it's not implemented :p
15:47<andythenorth>k
15:48-!-TrueBrain_ [~truebrain@ip82-139-82-247.lijbrandt.net] has joined #openttd
15:48<andythenorth>so a switch and permanent storage?
15:49<andythenorth>switch and temp storage
15:49<@Yexo>temp storage is easier
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15:50<@Yexo>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1894/
15:51<andythenorth>ta
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15:52<@Yexo>if you want to get rid of the rounding error Rubidium mentioned use "var * LOAD_TEMP(0) / 0x1000" instead of "var % LOAD_TEMP(0)"
15:53<andythenorth>k
15:54*Rubidium reckons the return of Random is so unrandom that it overwhelms the effects of the modulo bias ;)
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15:56<andythenorth>let's see if it works :)
15:58-!-Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
15:59<andythenorth>ok
15:59<andythenorth>so "5 * LOAD_TEMP(0) / 0x1000"
16:00<andythenorth>gives me a -9 year offset in one case
16:00<@Yexo>one more zero
16:00<@Yexo> / 0x10000
16:00<andythenorth>glad I made that a var :)
16:03<andythenorth>k that all works
16:03<andythenorth>thanks
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16:19<krinn>hi, found a strange bug, one of my station doesn't appears in stationlist, even the station exist :)
16:21<krinn>even my savegame is kinda strange (i save it after the ai crash), shouldn't all stations recorded by openttd anyway ?
16:21<krinn>ah never mind found it
16:22<krinn>it was filtering, openttd also save filtering station state ?
16:26<@Yexo>dunno, you can filter stations?
16:26<krinn>by cargo type yes
16:27<krinn>one of cargo was set as don't show, hence why the station wasn't show even i click on show all stations
16:28<andythenorth>bed time
16:28<andythenorth>bye
16:28<krinn>bye andythenorth
16:28<krinn>didn't notice it until now, i must play with that cargo filtering from years :)
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16:37<frosch123>i doubt any filter state is saved in a savegame or in the config
16:37<frosch123>it will likely reset if you restart ottd, or even if you reload the gam
16:38<krinn>waiting my tests to end to reload that savegame to see
16:38<krinn>i doubt it a bit too, so i must play like that for a huge time without notice that cargo was uncheck
16:40-!-DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-123-63.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
16:41<Industrial>If i transport passengers by train, do I put the train on full load at both ends?
16:41-!-DanMacK [~AndChat61@74.198.9.200] has joined #openttd
16:43<krinn>that the same question for any transport type Industrial
16:43-!-Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@5ED1CCB7.cm-7-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Hyronymus]
16:44<krinn>i'm afraid the answer is "it depend on station", full load on weak station make you train stay longer and higher the rating for that station, while then the other rating drop and of course passengers drop too
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16:47<frosch123>when transporting passengers i usually don't use any full load
16:47<frosch123>however, stations with very few passengers should have a timetabled loading time
16:48<frosch123>so that trains wait at least some days
16:48<frosch123>that prevents them from clumping up
16:48-!-Markavian [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
16:48<frosch123>something between 2 to 10 days, depending on how many vehicles you have on that line
16:49<krinn>the non-full load on two poor station should gave good results, except if train and line is long: you may end with poor rating on both stations and train keep going with nothing from both
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16:49<frosch123>i think full load at both ends will end up with all trains waiting at the station with less cargo
16:50<frosch123>so, i would actually say, "full load at both ends" is never a good option
16:50<krinn>frosch123, might assure you will at least get a few bucks from it, and a good rating while it try loading, depend what you wish get
16:51<krinn>i sometimes fullload a poor station to help town grow (or my rating within the town), even i loose money, kinda trading money for reputation :)
16:52<frosch123>yeah, if you want to full load, then at the station with few cargo
16:53<frosch123>but timetabling is likely still better when loading at multiple stations
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16:53<krinn>i don't do timetabling, but that looks the best for that yes
16:54<krinn>Industrial, isn't that the best answer for a question we could really answer ?
16:55<frosch123>Industrial: and if you go for the timetabling, only timetable the loading times, not the travel times
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i missed the randomness discussion again
16:56<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: 4
16:56<krinn>like the cavlary Eddi|zuHause always too late
16:56<krinn>cavalry maybe ?
16:56<krinn>wait checking that word ^^
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>cavalry, yes
16:57<frosch123>chivalry?
16:57<krinn>ah yes, nearly as in french
16:57<krinn>cavalry
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: well, both words have the same root :)
16:57<krinn>we said "cavalry comes always too late" (lol must be for french historical reason)
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>french "cheval" meaning horse
16:58<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, always killing me by your knowledge dude
16:58<Industrial>frosch123: I don't know what the timetable option is
16:58<frosch123>Industrial: http://wiki.openttd.org/Timetable
16:58<plhalaser>guys can someone compile for me ottd1.2.3 with daylenght, larger maps and singnal on brifge and tunels? 64bit is better
16:59<Industrial>ah, thanks
17:00<frosch123>interestingly the wiki does not seem to descibe the use-case of timetabling only loading times :/
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>the use-case of timetabling being interleaving vehicles so they don't run into each other is a micromanage nightmare
17:01<Rubidium>plhalaser: why do you need specifically 1.2.3?
17:01<@planetmaker>plhalaser, use chill's patchpack
17:02<Rubidium>why doesn't any recent patchpack suffice?
17:02<@planetmaker>it's old but has those features
17:02<krinn>could have at least tell or what os no ?
17:02-!-DanMacK [~AndChat61@74.198.9.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:02<@planetmaker>hehe, krinn. I used to say "sure". And provided powerPC binaries for OSX 10.3 ... 10.5 ;-)
17:03<krinn>lol planetmaker
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>it's pretty obvious he meant windows by his previous discussions in here...
17:03<krinn>i was waiting for the next order : what you wish with your pizza ?
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>^Spike^:
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>err
17:03<Rubidium>he said 64 bit...
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>whatever that was
17:03<krinn>but even windows have versions no ?
17:03<@planetmaker>ppc64 :-P
17:03*Rubidium ponders starting up Hercules again ;)
17:03<@planetmaker>so 10.5 only
17:03<krinn>here's your build for win2003 64
17:03<krinn>:)
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: IA64? :)
17:04<krinn>lmao that's 64bits for sure
17:04<plhalaser>chill doesnt have daylengt
17:04<@planetmaker>but yes, he asked about mingw64 compilation earlier here
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>yes chill has daylength
17:04<plhalaser>64 would be better but if will be 32 its ok
17:05<@planetmaker>plhalaser, why is 64bit better?
17:05<@planetmaker>due to its slower function calls and increased memory usage and reduced running speed?
17:05<Rubidium>planetmaker: large maps need more memory
17:05<krinn>planetmaker, because it takes twice time the ram as the 32bits version
17:05<@planetmaker>twice?
17:05<krinn>not that many, but a lot more
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>asymptotically :)
17:06<plhalaser>no chill dont have it because it was unstable with others patches or sommething
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>plhalaser: that's nonsense
17:06<krinn>see x32 abi
17:06<Rubidium>the binary someone would cook up in a few minutes for you is undoubtedly buggier than chill's patchpack
17:07<Rubidium>though I doubt anyone here is going to make said binary for you
17:07<@planetmaker>It would take me probably more time than is left in this day. Only to setup the proper compilation environment
17:08<krinn>and mingw can only produce windows binary?
17:08<@planetmaker>that's the point of mingw, I guess
17:08<krinn>i would said is point is to run under windows
17:09<@planetmaker>I probably could even setup that here as cross-compiler... maybe that's easier and faster than on windows
17:09<@planetmaker>krinn, there are debian-mingw packages ;-)
17:09<@planetmaker>so point is to produce binaries for windows
17:09<krinn>:)
17:09<frosch123>hmm, on gentoo i could cross-compile ttdp for windows
17:10<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1895/
17:10<plhalaser>planetmaker, i tryied mingw32 but i was unable install any components because missind dlls
17:10<@planetmaker>plhalaser, then get those DLLs?
17:11<frosch123>plhalaser: haha, i like the mixture of translated and untranslated package description :p
17:11<@planetmaker>:D
17:11<frosch123>planetmaker: actually
17:11<krinn>planetmaker, pff no toolchain for IA64 :)
17:12<Rubidium>krinn: that just needs dpkg --add-architecture ia64 ;)
17:12<@planetmaker>krinn, I searched for mingw. Not for IA64. Debian has a native one there
17:12<@planetmaker>complete system with kernel and all apps :P
17:14<@planetmaker>http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/ia64/index.html
17:14<krinn>only get ppc and x86-64 x86 on gentoo for openttd
17:15<plhalaser>thats little problem for me, dlls i was unable to find, only source, and programing its finish 13 years ago on turbo pascal
17:15<krinn>you have site to find dll
17:16<plhalaser>whitch
17:16<krinn>you really need a teach about google ?
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17:22<Zuu>Or just stick to visual studio 2008/2010 which clearly have been proven to work to build OpenTTD.
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17:22<Zuu>I don't see why 2012 wouldn't work, but its new and there is probably no wiki article for it yet that describe new problems introduced by it. :-p
17:23<Supercheese>I followed the wiki instructions for compiling OTTD in Visual C++ 2008 express, and I went from absolutely nothing to fully able to compile in about ten minutes
17:23<Supercheese>it was amazingly easy
17:23<Zuu>Using the express version, AFAIK you'll only get 32 bit builds, but that is fine for most cases.
17:25<Supercheese>These instructions: http://wiki.openttd.org/Microsoft_Visual_C%2B%2B_2008_Express_Editions
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17:25<Supercheese>worked flawlessly
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17:29<plhalaser>visual c++ i tryied today too 2012 version because i trying install lzma on mingw64 3 days and when i use build solution i had only 1 success in cca 1 second, vc do nothing
17:33<Zuu>did you follow the wiki guide for compiling OpenTTD with visual studio 2010? (possible the guide that is closest to msvc2012)
17:34<Zuu>Also, I assume you try to build a clean trunk/stable without any patches applied?
17:36<plhalaser>yes step by step from wiki, on mingw and vc too
17:36<plhalaser>and i tryied clear 1.2.3
17:37<Zuu>When you hit F7, is the openttd project shown in bold (and the other 6 in non-bold)?
17:38<Zuu>The project list is sually found too the left of the code window.
17:39<plhalaser>when i hit f7 only what vc do was on bottom show 1 success
17:39<Zuu>"Solution explorer" is probably the correct name of that window.
17:39<Zuu>Ideally it should show 7 success.
17:39<plhalaser>i had 1
17:40<Zuu>Example build here:
17:40<Zuu>========== Build: 3 succeeded, 0 failed, 3 up-to-date, 1 skipped ==========
17:40<Zuu>succeded + up-to-date + skipped usually sum up to 7
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17:41<plhalaser>first time when i hit f7 was 1 success 0 others, next time was only 1 up to date 0 others
17:41<Zuu>Is "OpenTTD" shown in bold in your solution explorer window?
17:41<plhalaser>yes
17:42<Zuu>If you hit F5, what happens?
17:42<Zuu>Does the solution explorer also include "generate", "lags", "settings", "settingsgen", "strgen" and "version" sub projects?
17:44<plhalaser>blank white window
17:45<plhalaser>and no
17:45<Zuu>That is your problem
17:45<@planetmaker>did you install openttd useful?
17:45<Zuu>Are you sure that you opened the .sln file?
17:46<Zuu>openttd_vs100.sln
17:46<Zuu>and not a .vcproj file
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17:47<plhalaser>i opened sln file
17:47<Zuu>If msvc2012 can't open openttd_vs100.sln and get all 7 sub projects shown in the solution explorer, then that is likely a fatal problem.
17:48<Zuu>Eg. something that need manual work to get working.
17:48<+glx>IIRC express 2012 can only do metro style apps
17:48<Zuu>Easiest for you is probably to go down to vs2010 or vs2008.
17:48<__ln__>glx: your information is outdated
17:48<+glx>they changed their mind ?
17:49<__ln__>that's what i've heard
17:49<Zuu>Anyway, from what I've heard the icon set for vs2012 sucks.
17:51<plhalaser>today its finishing for me, tommorov ill try to install mingw32 again and try download missing libraries or ill try to do sommething with lzma for 64bit
17:52<+glx>ha right there are express for win8 and express for win desktop
17:54-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f69c0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:54<__ln__>besides, it's UI-formerly-known-as-Metro, not Metro
17:55<+glx>yes windows store apps
17:55<+glx>plhalaser: just get lzma source and compile it
17:55<+glx>that's how it works with mingw
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18:11<krinn>dbg: [script] [3] [I] Do 12500 units of WOOD(7)
18:11<krinn>dbg: [script] [3] [I] Do 12500 units of FOOD(11)
18:11<krinn>dbg: [script] [3] [I] Do 12500 units of DIAM(15)
18:11<krinn>dbg: [script] [3] [I] We will now promote DIAM
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18:48<drac_boy>hi
18:48<Supercheese>salve
18:48<drac_boy>how're you supercheese?
18:49<Supercheese>playing a game (not OTTD)
18:49<drac_boy>and btw I slept ok ... still got this stupid illness but oh well .. we'll see tomorrow :/
18:49<drac_boy>supercheese but either way heres' another thought on trains for you .. do you want to know why certain tenders were called Vanderbilt ones? :)
18:51-!-KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-38-85.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:53<Supercheese>Vanderbilt tenders, eh?
18:56<drac_boy>the name came from the way that a normal boxy water tank has a lot of internal frames to keep its shape (especially avoid the long flat surfaces from bowing out) ... but a vanderbilt tender was more of a cylinder which was so much easier to built and lighter due to very little framing weigth needed
18:56<Supercheese>interesting
18:56<drac_boy>and the coal bunker was just a small sloped box built on the front end of the tank .. abit a few vandrbilt tenders that were for oil/water instead simply looked more like a real tank car except for a full baffle inside to seperate the two liquids
18:57<drac_boy>heres an old coal/water one http://www.gngoat.org/pdx_con31.jpg
18:57<drac_boy>the one cap on top was ofc for water refills as usual :)
18:59<drac_boy>supercheese of course there was one unique (afaik) tender on PRR ....
19:01<drac_boy>http://www.columbusrailroads.com/photogallery-2/k-don-151-PRR-CLMB.jpg notice the tender? its got a sloped back
19:02<Supercheese>Those tenders remind me of some in NARS
19:02<drac_boy>that was for visibility considering it was a yard engine so the limited water supply was not a concern .. easy to stand up in cab and well pretty much see behind locomotive as it eases up to a cut of wagons
19:03<drac_boy>in some cases there was only like maybe 11,000 litres of water ..a small amount which wasn't any concern as the water tower was only a few minutes away all the times anyway
19:03<drac_boy>suprcheese of course one of these particular locomotive had to make an unusual rescue once....
19:05<drac_boy>gasoline rpo (mail0 coach would not even start up one freezing morning due to iced up radiator fins ..what to do? of course phone the nearby yard and ask the yard goat to haul it onward ...
19:06<drac_boy>took several minutes to resupply its tender then the train went off limited to only 25mph due to the risk of the bucking snow derailing it ... and had to make several long stops for water .. then the last bit of the story was...
19:06<drac_boy>train finally reached the final station which was a major terminal and instead of the scheduled mail platform it simply took the firstmost platform to make it easier to holster the locomotive away
19:07<Supercheese>Blocked the express or some such?
19:07<drac_boy>and the next day the scheduled return was provided by a more proper steam locomotive with two rpo coaches instead .. considering the powered coach was not likely in any shape to run
19:07<drac_boy>supercheese it was a quiet single-track branchline so there was nothing to delay...except for stationmasters having to be told that the train was going to be very late
19:08<drac_boy>still..to call up a yard goat to take such a knackered train onward in a blizzard was some last-minute thinking ;)
19:08<Supercheese>well, couldn't just leave it stranded there
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19:09<drac_boy>supercheese its not quite same thing but I recall another kind of story that was related to bad coals....
19:10<drac_boy>doublehead train leave yard but soon it was apparent the coals they had were almost no different than the ballast used for the track (thats a OUCH there!) .... after an uneven slow running they finally reached an operator's station and phoned the dispatcher for further instructions....
19:11<drac_boy>turned out another train had already stalled on the hill ahead but was being aided by a helper so .. plan then was that if this train did stall on the hill too they'll lit their red fuse and that'll be the signal for the returning helpers to tie onto the train and help it as well ...
19:12<drac_boy>and off they went ... sure enough .. as expected .. all that dirty black smoke did nothing but bring the train to a stall....red fuses go out .... and while waiting for the helper they dumped all the ash out and tried to rebuild a better fire
19:13<drac_boy>train made it into the next yard without much problem afterward .. but yeah lets say that the article writer said that when he went to the bathroom to look in the mirror the only thing not black were circles around his eyes!
19:13<drac_boy>talk about really bad coal :)
19:17<drac_boy>supercheese at least water problems were almost nonexisting, usually only related to too much foaming (from too much pH chemicals or so in the rocking tender) or from balky injector(s)
19:18<drac_boy>all the foaming could play a bit of havock with the water sighting glasses pretty much :-s
19:18<Supercheese>I should ask the folks north of here if I can get an engineer's tour of their 2-6-2 Prairie
19:18<Supercheese>I think it's converted to waste-oil-fired
19:19<drac_boy>hmm I've never seen many of them but 2-6-2 isn't bad arrangement tbh
19:19<drac_boy>although on tank locomotives it did make more sense..always having a guide axle in either directions
19:19<Supercheese>Looks a lot like http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=2-6-2_Prairie
19:20<drac_boy>tank locomotives for commuter services were almost always something out of eg 2-6-2T, 2-8-4T, etc anyway
19:21<drac_boy>mind you some railroads had big tank locomotives for particular reasons
19:21<drac_boy>like how about a 2-10-4T with rather small tires that it looked like it was literally flying.....at only 40km/h? :P
19:22<drac_boy>had a lot of tractive tho
19:22<Supercheese>Oh wait, forgot the one north of here is narrow gauge
19:22<Supercheese>http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/Locopicture.aspx?id=157815
19:23<drac_boy>and supercheese here's one mallet tank of a good size :P http://www.lctm.info/Secciones/LocoMes/L017_BR96/Real/Ima07.jpg
19:23<drac_boy>thats a DRG 96 (originally bavarian as usual)
19:23<Supercheese>Compound tank engine?
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19:24<drac_boy>don't recall..just kinda know the name and it being german thats about it
19:24<drac_boy>still it shows that tank were not always small indeed
19:25<Supercheese>Yep
19:25<Supercheese>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRG_Class_96
19:25<Supercheese>must have had beastly tractive effort
19:26<Supercheese>"it could manage an incline of 25‰ at 25 km/h hauling 465 tons" dang.
19:27<Supercheese>unaided?
19:28<Supercheese>seems likely
19:28<drac_boy>25km/h and 465 tons .. that sounds a lot too alike to N&W Y6b there :)
19:28<drac_boy>but mind you the Y6b had to contend with a mountain-cuttijng line which had a lot of cliffs-swiping curves
19:29<Supercheese>the 25% grade seems quite steep
19:29<drac_boy>there was one trackside photo in magazine of a Y6b clawing uphill in thick smoke with a rocky cliff wall only a few inches far away from left side of the locomotive meanwhile the front truck was swung a bit to the left for it was on a curve
19:30<drac_boy>talk about a true mountain route indeed
19:30<drac_boy>btw supercheese 25 0/00 and 25% are not really the same thing I think
19:31<Supercheese>yeah, notation is different
19:31<Supercheese>I see percent and inclines and I think US Highway grade percentage, as that is what I am most familiar with
19:31<Supercheese>despite that likely not being the same thing :P
19:32<Supercheese>738.4 kN traction?! Whoah
19:32<drac_boy>btw 25 0/00 is like about 2.5% if I'm right I think
19:33<drac_boy>thats not too harsh but .. still quite steep enough
19:33<Supercheese>a 25% highway grade would be... impossible at best :P
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19:33<drac_boy>basically one 0/00 is a tenth of a % as far as I can tell right now
19:33<drac_boy>just so you know
19:34<drac_boy>then again the funny thing is 1% means 1 out of 100 ... so not surprisingly 1 0/00 seem to just simply mean the same thing by its longer form
19:35<drac_boy>supercheese... 25% would be ... well ... umm do you even know how steep these crazy roads in calfornia is? the ones that their old cable cars have to run on yeah :P
19:35<drac_boy>then again some of the old towns in italy were not really made for cars...steep roads with sharp curbs .. need a small car but with good first gear altogether
19:36<Supercheese>25% grade would require a funicular or something :P
19:36<drac_boy>btw supercheese I still don't even the hell know the story behind this but .. umm yeah .. http://www.datapointed.net/media/2009/11/street_big.jpg 0_o
19:37<Supercheese>Eh, that's just San Francisco
19:37<drac_boy>no wonder theres no lane lines and a very wide road ... *NO*ONE would ever want to not park a car sideway
19:37<drac_boy>and hopefully for now (depending on if climate change does not slam them) .... never sees any winters .. any amount of snow would turn it into a sliding slush deathtrap :P
19:38<drac_boy>I mean could you imagine.....walk out of door....reach the sidewalk....ops....you're starting go sideway.... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH
19:38<Supercheese>Yeah, I don't think San Fran has seen any significant snow
19:38<drac_boy>heh heh
19:38<Supercheese>ever
19:38<drac_boy>supercheese what would you think of that anyway? ^^
19:39<Supercheese>Snow would shut the city down completely
19:39<drac_boy>supercheese there was one silly story in one of my 'trucking humor' book....
19:40<drac_boy>it mentioned that the vancouver towns had only one regulation for winters .. dump a feet of salt for each inch of snow ... and soon enough everything is coming to a standstill with no space to plow the salt out of the way anymore
19:41<drac_boy>and he jokingly mentioned that the welcome sign for BC should instead read "STAY OUT DURING WINTER!"
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19:41<drac_boy>you got to hand it to him for there is one small truth tho...a lot of people have no real idea how to drive in the snow over there even although they live so close to mountains
19:43<drac_boy>supercheese btw I'm not joking but a lot of the times through the winter months around here I'm always finding certain usa state plated cars in the ditch just about anywhere even on a straight country highway stretch .... sometimes even from the sunny ones too (calfornia, florida, etc)
19:43<drac_boy>almost never ever find any local plates in the snow.....makes you ponder
19:45<drac_boy>and nothing is worser than seeing a big fat 4dr sedan from texas spun out deep into a ditch with no tread to be seen on the one visible tires because its too clotted with slush (can you bet he did not even have winter tires?)
19:46<Supercheese>I should get my snow tires put on soon
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19:47<drac_boy>supercheese I'm never worried about anything except really heavy thunderstorms tbh :)
19:47<drac_boy>thats the fun thing of a well stocked old landcruiser heh
19:48<drac_boy>heavy and a bit slow .. but ... guess what? it always go just almost anywhere (except up the wall.....duh)
19:48<drac_boy>still need to find a better turbocharger that would pair up with the cummin engine tho
19:49<drac_boy>supercheese its only got about 80-100hp afaik .. no idea on the real number but .. I do know that for a cummin diesel its probably got a lot of torque on the other hand ....
19:50<drac_boy>so yeah put it in first gear and put the throttle pedal flat to floor .. it'll only lurch forward and start picking up speed ... never slips :P
19:51<Supercheese>There's some research going on at Oregon State University on a car powered by compressed natural gas, and a natural gas compressor for your garage.
19:51<Supercheese>Really sounds promising to me, being able to fuel up in your own garage!
19:51<Supercheese>Also, natural gas is pretty plentiful and burns clean
19:52<drac_boy>supercheese I'm not too sure..you'll have to check how much power you can get out of a litre of NG compared to other fuels
19:52<Supercheese>I'd be fine with a small car, I don't need too much power
19:52<Supercheese>but yeah, we'll have to see how the project progresses
19:52<drac_boy>thats why ethanol is really a flop no matter how hard the usa gov tries ... its noticeably less powerful with a lower mileage than a equival all-gas-gassed car
19:53<drac_boy>eg if the gas car had 130hp and got 27mpg .. then the ethanol-only would be more like 110ish hp with way less than 27mpg for sure
19:53<drac_boy>the 85gas/15ethanol blend? I'm not sure but hmm maybe not good either way
19:54<Supercheese>well, the advantage of alcohol fuels would be that you can take basically any biomass, ferment it, distill, and run an engine with it
19:54<Supercheese>Mowing your lawn? Take the clippings and make alcohol with them
19:54<Supercheese>power yer car
19:54<Supercheese>nobody does that, though
19:54<drac_boy>distilled engine? thats been tried many times in the past I recall
19:54<drac_boy>hell even the original powerplant for the Zephyr was supposed to be distilled ... was soon diesel instead
19:55<Supercheese>at least not these days, the Model A did exactly that (with stuff other than lawn clippings anyway) back in the day
19:55<Supercheese>Model A was dual-fuel, could run gas or alcohol
19:55<Supercheese>or a mixture of both, I guess
19:56<Supercheese>or wait, was that Model T
19:57<Supercheese>I get those mixed up :P
19:57<Supercheese>seems like it was the Model T
19:58<Supercheese>anyway, if you could distill your own fuel, the advantage is that Flex-Fuel vehicles can already run it straight
19:58<Supercheese>I don't think we have any nat gas cars on the market at the moment
19:59<drac_boy>btw I had actually been thinking about that after I got a decent turbocharger working I was going to try play around with the mixture components (including air intake part) to see if it could run on a wider octane blend
19:59<Supercheese>alcohols are very high octane
19:59<drac_boy>not sure yet tho...might wait till warm months again to decide about that .. winter is not a good time :p
19:59<Supercheese>they'd start really well when cold too
19:59<drac_boy>supercheese.. I'm talking about low octane ;)
19:59<Supercheese>oh, I see
20:00<drac_boy>diesel is about 10-20 give or take ... waste fat would be just a bit higher
20:01<drac_boy>supercheese btw it used to be you'll pour enough alcohol down the brake lines to waste the whole winter with ... that was pretty much the days before air dryers were created :P
20:02<drac_boy>moisture in line + cold = stuck brake coks = nothing to stop truck with *****!!!!
20:03<drac_boy>and of course theres many other inventions that truckers really took grant for ;)
20:04<drac_boy>supercheese for the record .. waste oil is not as "free fuel" as many hyped up people try to say it is ... first you have to collect it at a scheduled time ... second filter it for any food bits left behind during frying (chicken skin etc you know?) ... then do a fine filter to make sure you only have more or less clean waste oil .. and then only finally can you more or less use that for your engine
20:05<drac_boy>and thats a bit oversimplifying it btw
20:05<Supercheese>Yeah, my cousin ran his pickup on waste vegetable oil for a while
20:05<Supercheese>he said it was a major pain, it didn't last long
20:06<Supercheese>I think there's a difference between waste vegetable oil and waste petrol/synthetic oil
20:06<Supercheese>well, I *know* there is, rather
20:06<drac_boy>well waste petrol is not really waste fat :P
20:07<Supercheese>I think the 2-6-2 I linked earlier uses waste petrol oil
20:07<Supercheese>IIRC
20:08<Eddi|zuHause>oil-powered steam engines tended to use "heavy oil" which couldn't be refined further at that time. they grew unpopular once that became possible
20:09<drac_boy>supercheese heh theres also UP and Bunker C oil too
20:09<supermop>hi
20:09<drac_boy>cheap turbine fuel .. but when that fact was gone...and newer diesels were just coming....lets say that was almost the total end for any existing turbine locomotives
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20:10*drac_boy wonders if there is even an octane chart of common fuels anywhere
20:11<drac_boy>something that'll go from 5 to 200 etc that is
20:11<Supercheese>ask Google!
20:12<drac_boy>doesn't seem to be much online either way hence me asking :P
20:13<Supercheese>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating#Examples_of_octane_ratings
20:15<drac_boy>all these 20-60 have weird names that make no sense heh
20:15<drac_boy>curiously wonder if that RON 0 thing can even ignite at all :p
20:15<Supercheese>I love how ethanol is 4th highest on that chart
20:16<Supercheese>oh wait it's not ascending
20:16<Supercheese>It's more like 8th highest
20:18<drac_boy>suprcheese just asking out of curiousity but do you drive?
20:18<Supercheese>aye
20:18<drac_boy>btw hi supermop..sorry...talking so much here ... how're you? :P
20:18<drac_boy>supercheese auto or manual?
20:19<Supercheese>I've only ever driven automatics, but I really really want to try a manual transmission
20:19<Supercheese>the last two cars I've inherited from my grandmother, though, and so I don't really have a reason to buy another car
20:19<Supercheese>also, none of my family drives a manual, none of my friends...
20:20<drac_boy>heh I only like manual alone .. autos have too many problems aside to being expensive anyway
20:20<Supercheese>I think I'd like it because you have more control
20:21<Supercheese>also they apparently get better mileage, all else equal
20:21<drac_boy>supercheese yeah .. plus manuals don't do weird things to gears :P
20:21<Supercheese>but as I said, I've gotten my cars thus far for free, so I can't complain :P
20:22<supermop>fine, eating a cheap dinner and watchinf the news
20:23<drac_boy>btw supercheese if you're wondering .. its a warner 5spd transmission paired with a stiff dana transfer case here :P
20:23<drac_boy>almost indestructible combination anyway ;)
20:24<drac_boy>supercheese of course it doesn't help that thanks to the slow but strong engine you have to be mindful of the clutch
20:25<drac_boy>otherwise if you clutch out with the stick not really all the way in .. the torque may whump it back into neutral .... heh heh
20:28<drac_boy>supercheese I don't think I mentioned this part to you yet but .. you know how normally for a car you slow down then take a sharp curve .. then smoothly accerlate back up to more or less same speed? well this landcruiser usually has no idea what brakes are for .. it'll happily deck a 40km/h posted curve at a shade over 70km/h without caring ... except that anyone in the rear seat row may better find something to hang on
20:28*drac_boy just whistles innocently
20:28<Supercheese>Sounds good: braking is the major cause of inefficiency for an automobile
20:28<Supercheese>avoid braking, be more efficient!
20:29<drac_boy>actually the real problem is its slow to accerlate so its a tradeoff providing any passenger doesn't mind it
20:32<drac_boy>supercheese it sometimes reminds me of a particular manga story..one moment :p
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20:42<drac_boy>sorry supercheese decided to add a little more but anyway .. you up for a few scanlet pages now? :)
20:43<Supercheese>I suppose
20:43<Supercheese>I don't mind a distraction from this thermodynamics homework :P
20:43<drac_boy>http://c.mfcdn.net/store/manga/134/03-023.0/compressed/Initial_D_v03_c023_029.jpg?v=1 first one and its rather simple ... ofc I'm no specialist but meh :)
20:44<drac_boy>http://c.mfcdn.net/store/manga/134/03-023.0/compressed/Initial_D_v03_c023_039.jpg?v=1 and thats a bit like me ... disappearing around curves too fast just like me re no braking at all
20:44<drac_boy>and just so you know 'eighty-six' is because its a 1986 toyota trueno
20:45<drac_boy>and well of course I don't drift (its too impossible to with all that curb weight heh) but still what he said about never decelerating pretty much is alike to me ...
20:45<drac_boy>http://c.mfcdn.net/store/manga/134/03-024.0/compressed/Initial_D_v03_c024_053.jpg?v=1
20:45<drac_boy>http://c.mfcdn.net/store/manga/134/03-024.0/compressed/Initial_D_v03_c024_054.jpg?v=1
20:46<drac_boy>http://c.mfcdn.net/store/manga/134/03-024.0/compressed/Initial_D_v03_c024_055.jpg?v=1
20:46<drac_boy>and last http://c.mfcdn.net/store/manga/134/03-024.0/compressed/Initial_D_v03_c024_056.jpg?v=1
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20:50<drac_boy>the part about loose screws in head .... I dunno what to say about that heh
21:02<drac_boy>and if you're not tired yet heres the final section over three pages http://c.mfcdn.net/store/manga/134/03-024.0/compressed/Initial_D_v03_c024_060.jpg?v=1
21:02<drac_boy>http://c.mfcdn.net/store/manga/134/03-024.0/compressed/Initial_D_v03_c024_061.jpg?v=1
21:02<drac_boy>http://c.mfcdn.net/store/manga/134/03-024.0/compressed/Initial_D_v03_c024_062.jpg?v=1
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