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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-11-14

---Logopened Wed Nov 14 00:00:25 2012
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02:50<@Terkhen>good morning
02:54-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
02:54<Flygon>G'day mate
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03:18<@planetmaker>moin
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03:40<Eddi|zuHause>baaa way too early...
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03:57<@planetmaker>good morning, Eddi|zuHause :-)
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05:21<__ln__>http://pixus-ru.blogspot.fi/2012/11/hack-any-skype-account-in-6-easy-steps.html
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05:39<Flygon>ffffffff
05:39<Flygon>wow
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07:51<NGC3982>Fantastic.
07:52<NGC3982>It's a good day for traffic in Sweden.
07:57<__ln__>Driving on the left side again?
07:58<NGC3982>At least i do.
08:01<Flygon>Real men drive on the left side
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08:48<Eddi|zuHause>the left side is not the right side
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08:58<drac_boy>hi
09:07<V453000>!getsave https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/StableNUTS37.sav
09:07<V453000>uhm
09:07<V453000>yeah
09:07<V453000>sorry :)
09:09<drac_boy>:p ?
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>where's glx, anyway? :)
09:11<V453000>just a command to get a map on the server
09:11<V453000>obviously wrong channel :)
09:16*NGC3982 is so bored.
09:17<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/6W3Bw.png
09:17<NGC3982>Any suggestions?
09:18<frosch123>less sharp curves
09:19<NGC3982>I guess making each curve > the length of a train would be more effective.
09:19<frosch123>did you build the platforms in two separate crossing parts intentionally?
09:19<NGC3982>Yes, haven't tried it before.
09:20<frosch123>i mean, the obvious solution would be to all build them in NW-SE direction
09:20<NGC3982>Normally i'd do that.
09:20<frosch123>currently whenever something is loading in NW-SE, it blocks all entries to NE-SW
09:21<frosch123>because the path extents over the end of the station over the whole junction
09:21<V453000>bridges arent an enemy btw
09:21<NGC3982>And i just noticed a new problem.
09:21<NGC3982>V453000: Yes they are.
09:21<@Belugas>hello
09:22<V453000>why?
09:22<NGC3982>V453000: I simply don't like them. :)
09:24<V453000>well endless amount of PBS junctions wont solve most of your jams
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>http://i.imgur.com/WU3wl.jpg
09:24<NGC3982>V453000: Indeed.
09:24<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: :D
09:25<V453000>(by that I mean you will need to use bridges/tunnels sooner or later)
09:25<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: so pm got away safely?
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>let's hope so :)
09:29*drac_boy still thinks about my effective tunnel+flyover junction for a busy 2-platform passenger station and chuckle at how it would had been more wieldy in ottd with the lack of portal rails and programmed signals
09:29<drac_boy>one day when they finally implent it..I'll have to share some ottd screenshot
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>"portal rails" do not change junction topology
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>they just help you save some space
09:48<drac_boy>well actually it kinda does when ottd need a slower S curve and 2 more tiles space .. which doesn't exactly help fast train movements
09:48<drac_boy>but mm anyway
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09:50<drac_boy>at least I'll pass ottd for one thing even if its not quite updated anymore... being able to share rails+stations
09:51*drac_boy wonders what a flying fox is
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10:46<andythenorth>meh
10:46<andythenorth>most of the ideas for electricity (including some I've had)
10:46<andythenorth>are just variations on "MOAR is better"
10:46<andythenorth>which is wrong
10:47<andythenorth>in vanilla game electricity would probably just be more tedious crap
10:47<andythenorth>like signalling
10:47<andythenorth>in GS....it could be quite interesting
10:47<andythenorth>ah
10:47<andythenorth>wtf doesn't autorail also auto-signal?
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>i'm of the firm conclusion that electricity should be outside of the transportation game
10:47<andythenorth>default = one way PBS, in the direction of drag
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>tried ctrl+drag?
10:48<andythenorth>orly?
10:48<andythenorth>ctrl-drag removes track
10:48<andythenorth>(with autorail selected)
10:49<NGC3982>"GS"?
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10:59<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you can drag signals just well. But it's a separate step
10:59<andythenorth>I know
10:59<andythenorth>:)
10:59<andythenorth>maybe it shouldn't be
10:59<andythenorth>pretty certain we'd have got gold last night in NoCarGoal
10:59<andythenorth>if it wasn't for signalling :P
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11:04<@peter1138>hurrdygurr
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11:55<NGC3982>V453000: I had to make way for compromise.
11:55*NGC3982 uses the bloody bridges.
11:55<V453000>:d
11:55<Yexo><NGC3982> "GS"? <- GoalScript
11:55<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
11:56<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/QPkgl.png
11:56<NGC3982>It's a mess.
11:56<MNIM>lol.
11:56<MNIM>that is not a mess
11:59<NGC3982>The bridges does not contribute to "it" being a mess.
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>that is an abomination :)
11:59<NGC3982>It's a mess, since i have no control on when a dead-lock happends.
12:00<MNIM>oh yes. when you put it like that.
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>you have deadlocks because the entry line crosses the exit line
12:00<MNIM>(WARNING huge unresized screen) http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/1/2248324/Sendtown%20Transport%2C%2017th%20Jun%201977.png
12:00<MNIM>now that is what I call a bit too complicated :P
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12:01<MNIM>whoops. hope I did not just crash him :d
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>500kB is not huge... 12MB is "huge": www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png
12:02<MNIM>eddi: I know, but some people disagree
12:02<MNIM>I suppose I could have removed 'huge'.
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12:04<NGC3982>That's one great build.
12:05<MNIM>I like how you did the intersections in that one. looks like something I would build :P
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>the intersections are somewhat "grown"
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12:08<MNIM>it's sad I lost that game where I had a 3-way intersection in the middle of a town with a station worked into it.
12:08<MNIM>now that was what I call spaghetti.
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12:10<Eddi|zuHause>so... need a new old game to play :(
12:10*DanMacK1 appears to be having some connection issues
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12:18*NGC3982 recently started playing Rollercoaster Tycoon again.
12:19<NGC3982>Roller< space >tycoon.
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12:28<DanMacK>Haven't played that in years
12:28<DanMacK>Its coming out next year for android apparently
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12:35<NGC3982>Oh. That sounds nice.
12:37<DanM> Yeah
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12:37<DanM>Should be interesting to see how they do it
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12:39<DanMacK>Bbl work time
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12:41<Eddi|zuHause>i never played that game
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13:24<andythenorth>Yexo: the original FIRS idea was that *selected* industries would increase production if supplied with electricity
13:24<andythenorth>these would be power hungry industries like aluminium plant
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13:24<andythenorth>my intention was never to provide power lines and other crap
13:25<andythenorth>but rather check for a nearby power plant that was producing electricity (this requires ability for industries to read each other's permanent storage, which is not available)
13:25<andythenorth>unconvinced of benefits tbh
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13:32<supermop>that way is better thanb transmission lines
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13:38<@Alberth>moin
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13:41<Yexo>andythenorth: I am mostly trying to get people in that topic to think about what they want to add and why
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13:45<@planetmaker>I *could* imagine two other ways electricity comes into play:
13:46<@planetmaker>a) via game script which monitors delivery to power plants and only then allows to grow nearby towns
13:46<@planetmaker>b) via extension of industry specs as a special kind of fields where power plants grow power lines like farms grow fields (of course much different shape)
13:46<@planetmaker>the latter would be purely eye candy w/o further effect
13:46<Yexo>a) a game script can already do that, no need to introduce electricity or an energy net or whatever for that
13:47<@planetmaker>exactly
13:47<Yexo>b) I'm not perse against that, as long as the goal is clear: pure eye candy
13:47<@planetmaker>it would just need the actual script and have people believe that they use electricity :-)
13:48<@planetmaker>I consider b) as one implementation of more generalized fields. And fields - in my understanding - can always be built over
13:50<@planetmaker>(thus b) would also require a NewGRF being written)
13:52<andythenorth>Yexo: why think about what to add? :) MOAR IS BETTER! No?
13:52<andythenorth>or no
13:52<andythenorth>more building, more routing. More micromanagement
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13:53<andythenorth>the interesting issue comes when your coal mine won't produce coal because it has no electricity :P
13:53<andythenorth>planetmaker: (a) is valid and we should write a GS with power generation as the goal
13:54<@planetmaker>it would fit well IMHO into one of the town growth scripts. As added and / or optional challange
13:54<kero>actually, in the reality, a coal mine doesn't need electricity to produce coal
13:55<@Alberth>yeah, mines are driven by pure man-power :)
13:55<kero>essentially, yes. They produced coal for all the 19. century, without electricity
13:55<andythenorth>coal mines probably have on-site power generation :P
13:55<andythenorth>but if a coal mine doesn't need electricity, which industries do? It starts to sound quite faceted
13:55<@planetmaker>nah. They get all light and power by blowing up one dynamite after the other ;-)
13:56<@Alberth>dynamite is good for pneumatic power :)
13:57<kero>anyway, just as side note: I like a lot the improvments in OTTD, but I'm not sure that electricity has its place as it
13:57<kero>technically speaking, it's not a resource that you transport
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13:58<andythenorth>I think it's pretty valid as an effect arising from the core gameplay
13:58<andythenorth>I think connecting up power has nothing to do with core gameplay
13:58<andythenorth>if those distinctions make sense :)
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14:55<V453000>feature request: proper error messages; e.g. "Local authority are assholes; they gave you a quest to ravage and recreate local flora for which they will be slightly grateful."
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14:56<@planetmaker>what's wrong with "they don't allow you to build"?
14:56<@planetmaker>how is the current one in need of improvement?
14:56<V453000>doesnt state they are assholes
14:56<@planetmaker>ah, true that ;-)
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>in no reply whatsoever from a city authority you will ever read the word "asshole" :p
14:57<V453000>:)
14:57<@planetmaker>but they aren't. They're burocrats who got strongly lobbied by greenpeace
14:57<@Alberth>you could make a new translation :p
14:57<@planetmaker>like luxury trips to tropical islands for a "seminar" etc
14:58<@planetmaker>on environmental protection strategies
14:58<V453000>well Eddi|zuHause this is a message from my secretary which was communicating with the authorities, so in such a message ... :P
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>you mean like insurance agents travelling to budapest? :p
14:58<frosch123>planetmaker: tropical islands?
14:58<frosch123>i thought east europe is more popular?
14:59<@planetmaker>frosch123, yes... but I didn't want to tell V that the planes actually go to his home town :-P
14:59<frosch123>yeah, what eddi said
14:59<@planetmaker>I thought VW's planes went to Prague?
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>VW is not an insurance agency
15:00<@planetmaker>nor a local authority. Except maybe around my home region
15:00<frosch123>planetmaker: wasn't vw about brazil?
15:00<@planetmaker>maybe that also ;-)
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>no, VW is in argentina
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>or so
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>or was that BMW?
15:01<@planetmaker>VW has a big subsidy in Brazil
15:01<frosch123>hmm, google says india
15:01<@planetmaker>:-P
15:02<@Alberth>I am pretty sure you can buy both a VW and a BMW in both Brazil and in India :p
15:02<@planetmaker>:-)
15:02<V453000>I dont live in Prague pm :P
15:02<V453000>but yeah 100km :)
15:02<frosch123>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uujIScchHd8 <- whatever
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>anyway there was a large german cooperation which "expanded" to argentina in the 1950s
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>and in the 1970s under the dictatorship some labour union people "disappeared"
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15:04<Eddi|zuHause>and several famous german "immigrants" to argentina worked there
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15:11<Eddi|zuHause>ah, i know... it was Mercedes Benz
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>great listening material [german]: http://alternativlos.org/26/
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15:19<drac_boy>hi
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17:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24736 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2012-11-14 22:46:49 UTC)
17:46<@DorpsGek>-Cleanup: The third parameter of Textbuf::Initialize only makes sense if it is smaller than the second one, also its unit is not pixels.
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17:50<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24737 /trunk/src (textbuf.cpp textbuf_type.h) (2012-11-14 22:50:11 UTC)
17:50<@DorpsGek>-Add: Textbuf::Assign and Textbuf::Print.
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17:50<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24738 /trunk/src (15 files in 3 dirs) (2012-11-14 22:50:17 UTC)
17:50<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Remove Textbuf::Initialize in favour of a constructor.
17:50<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Fascinating.
17:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24739 /trunk/src (7 files in 2 dirs) (2012-11-14 22:50:21 UTC)
17:51<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Simplify some code by using Textbuf::Assign.
17:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24740 /trunk/src (11 files in 3 dirs) (2012-11-14 22:50:26 UTC)
17:51<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Remove duplicate members from QueryStringBaseWindow and directly use QueryString.
17:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24741 trunk/src/core/smallmap_type.hpp (2012-11-14 22:50:30 UTC)
17:51<@DorpsGek>-Add: Const-methods to SmallMap.
17:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24742 /trunk/src (16 files in 3 dirs) (2012-11-14 22:50:35 UTC)
17:51<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Remove QueryStringBaseWindow and store QueryStrings per widget instead.
17:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24743 /trunk/src (6 files in 2 dirs) (2012-11-14 22:50:39 UTC)
17:51<@DorpsGek>-Change: Unify the behaviour of ESC in filter editboxes.
17:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24744 /trunk/src (3 files) (2012-11-14 22:50:42 UTC)
17:51<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Handle clicking on editboxed also via QueryString.
17:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24745 /trunk/src (misc_gui.cpp widget.cpp) (2012-11-14 22:50:46 UTC)
17:51<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Draw complete editbox via QueryString.
17:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24746 /trunk/src (3 files) (2012-11-14 22:50:49 UTC)
17:51<@DorpsGek>-Cleanup: Remove weird lowering of editboxes.
17:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24747 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2012-11-14 22:50:53 UTC)
17:51<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Some editboxes had a different colour than the rest of the window.
17:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24748 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2012-11-14 22:50:56 UTC)
17:51<@DorpsGek>-Add: Clear button to all editboxes.
17:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24749 /trunk (6 files in 2 dirs) (2012-11-14 22:51:01 UTC)
17:51<@DorpsGek>-Add: GUI icons for delete to the left/right.
17:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24750 /trunk/src (4 files in 4 dirs) (2012-11-14 22:51:05 UTC)
17:51<@DorpsGek>-Cleanup: Remove old special clear filter button from signs list.
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19:16<krinn>hello
19:17-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
19:19<krinn>i get a strange result by squirrel (well, maybe not, but for me it look strange) : local _blah = null; switch (huhu) { case 0: _blah=0; break; case... } print(_blah) <- error _blah does not exist
19:20<krinn>inside the switch case, _blah exist and show the proper value i have set, but once i reach the break; state the _blah value disappears, shouldn't it kep it ?
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>smells scopy... :p
19:21<krinn>it's all inside the same function
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>i think the switch opens its own scope, so each _blah assignment there creates a new local variable, shadowing the other _Blah
19:22<krinn>i was thinking that too :(
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't know details about squirrel scopes
19:22<krinn>but shouldn't i get an error inside the switch {} because i use _blah= and not local _blah= so inside the switch _blah is not define
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>local is just syntactic sugar
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>it's not required
19:23<krinn>:o
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>(at least if it works remotely like python)
19:23<krinn>you mean local is not local then :)
19:24<krinn>how can i fix that ?
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>"a=0" creates a local variable a if it can't find a variable with that name
19:24<krinn>mmm let me try the a=0 to see if it throw "a doesn't exist"
19:26<krinn>no, i got the a doesn't exist error
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>hm ok
19:26<krinn>anyway to fix that ?
19:26<krinn>inside the switch the print(_blah) works, not outside
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>then i don't know... could be a squirrel/optimisation bug that the variable goes out of scope too earlly, or it could be a misunderstanding of the specs
19:28<+glx>you can try to print it before the switch, just to test
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19:29<krinn>glx: it works, until i reach the break; statement
19:29<krinn>the problem is because i do inside the switch _blah = aclass();
19:30<krinn>if i do _blah = "hell", _blah after the break print "hell"
19:30<+glx>looks like it deletes the object when exiting from the switch then
19:30<krinn>glx yes
19:31<krinn>even if _blah was define itself before the switch
19:32<krinn>damn scope hell!
19:47<krinn>found the line that create this, if i comment it out, it works, else it doesn't :/
19:48<krinn>but it's a foreach loop
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20:01<+glx>maybe paste the code somewhere
20:03<krinn>pastebin ?
20:03<+glx>yes
20:03<krinn>really strange, i will put comment on the line that trouble me
20:06<krinn>http://pastebin.com/A5eYEn3J the code
20:07<krinn>http://pastebin.com/67zVknSE the error if i kept the foreach loop line uncomment
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20:10<krinn>really weird, the foreach make it lost the _station
20:11<krinn>but after the break, as before the break i still have it
20:16<+glx>I don't think it's safe to modify _station.s_Tiles inside a foreach iterating it
20:17<krinn>that's what i was thinking too, even i have done it plenty times
20:17<krinn>i have change it too : foreach (loc, _dummy in _station.s_Tiles) { print("trigger bug"); }
20:17<krinn>commenting it, it works, uncomment, it put trigger bug output and indeed the bug appears
20:18<+glx>and only this foreach breaks ?
20:19<krinn>lol yes
20:19<+glx>because the one on the next line is very similar
20:19<krinn>i have even change it to : foreach (loc, _dummy in _station.s_Tiles) { }
20:19<krinn>ah no, sorry i have just add this one before pasting it, this one must be comment out too
20:22<krinn>it's kinda amazing, even that trigger the bug -> local grrr = AIList(); grrr.AddList(_station.s_Tiles); foreach (loc, _dummy in grrr) { }
20:29<krinn>i have update the pastebin with the current code and sample of output at end : http://pastebin.com/xgJLkMn2
20:31<+glx>that's really weird
20:31<krinn>i know :D
20:31<krinn>i really don't get what's going on
20:32<krinn>the foreach make it act stupidly
20:37<krinn>what squirrel version we use in openttd 1.2.1 ?
20:37<krinn>i'm looking at : http://freecode.com/projects/the-squirrel-programming-language/releases/259630
20:37<krinn>and i see foreach changes
20:38<krinn>for squirrel 2.1.2
20:41<+glx>we use 2.2.5
20:42<krinn>any function to get the squirrel version in openttd itself?
20:43<+glx>there is _version_
20:44<krinn>you mean a print(_version_); should make it ?
20:44<+glx>yes
20:45<krinn>ah yes, 2.2.5 stable
20:46<krinn>and of course they don't gave 2.2.5 changed here :) http://sourceforge.net/news/?group_id=85893
20:47<krinn>must say i'm totally lost now
20:48<+glx>http://sourceforge.net/projects/squirrel/files/squirrel2/squirrel%202.2.5%20stable/ there's a changelog here
20:49<krinn>thank you
20:51<krinn>glx you think it's squirrel bug too ?
20:51<+glx>dunno
20:52<krinn>ah lol, i have just think i could for loop it instead of foreach :D
20:55<+glx>why not just use Valuate() .
20:55<+glx>?
20:55<krinn>ah yes, will work too
20:55<krinn>changing code to see
20:56<+glx>because your line is exactly a use for Valuate() :)
20:56<krinn>:) _station.s_Tiles.Valuate(AIRoad.GetRoadStationFrontTile);
20:58<krinn>dbg: [script] [1] [P] loc=228518 other=228519
20:58<krinn>dbg: [script] [1] [S] Your script made an error: the index 'bugme' does not exist
20:58<krinn>valuate version works :D
20:59<+glx>it should be faster too
20:59<krinn>it's really foreach, scarry, i have plenty
21:00<krinn>grep -R foreach * | wc -l
21:00<krinn>248
21:00<krinn>:(
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21:00<+glx>even a foreach not using _station in any way ?
21:01<krinn>ah no, i shouldn't have that special foreach between switch case a lot
21:02<krinn>oh ! and glad at least the bug do throw an error that crash the ai !
21:02<krinn>so should be 248 safe foreach :)
21:03<krinn>should i put that in flyspray for reminding it ?
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21:03<+glx>maybe yes
21:04<krinn>even there's no real explain why it does that?
21:04<+glx>some devs are more familiar than me with squirrel VM
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21:05<+glx>maybe you're the first to use foreach in a switch :)
21:05<krinn>lmao, with a local variable before the switch, re-use after it
21:07<krinn>i will post it tomorrow, will do a small AI with just the case in it to see if it could reproduce at least easy or it need special conditions
21:07<+glx>yes the smaller test case the better
21:09<+glx>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=49176
21:10<+glx>you're not the first :)
21:10<krinn>glx wow amazing how you find this one so fast
21:11<krinn>eheh i suppose i don't need a testing AI so, it's confirm
21:12<+glx>more than 2 years old
21:14<krinn>so still affecting squirrel 2.2.5
21:16<krinn>ahah lol and morloth fix works
21:16<krinn>local _station = null; local stupidbug = 0; and the foreach works
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21:44<Pinkbeast>Ha, I think I just realised why cargod*st always produces unfeasible pax numbers
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---Logclosed Thu Nov 15 00:00:26 2012