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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-11-19

---Logopened Mon Nov 19 00:00:32 2012
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01:19<Nat_aS>>Find Brazil scenerio in Bananas
01:19<Nat_aS>oh this looks cool
01:19<Nat_aS>>It's temprate
01:19<Nat_aS>also absurd sized
01:19<Nat_aS>also, the amazon river is made of jaggies apparently
01:21<Nat_aS>the map is huge, but has no detail, and the amazon river makes right angle turns
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01:22<Nat_aS>oh, here's another inapropriately climated map, It's suposed to be the north sea, but it's also temprate
01:23<Nat_aS>>Temprate caribian
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02:23<Flygon>Nat_aS: Can't be any worse than the Sub-Arctic world map... that had no details, apart from USA apperantly being a city
02:24<Flygon>What really annoys me, though, is that you can't have all climates in one ma
02:24<Flygon>This really hurts America, Australia, and Europe scenarios :(
02:24<Flygon>Australia has snow and beaches within 200km of eachother, dangit!
02:25<Nat_aS>although there are newgrifs that do funky things with that I think
02:25<Nat_aS>at least there are newgrfs that fit snow into temprate maps
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02:25<Nat_aS>I just hate that there are few tropic maps, and when I see a map for somewhere like brazil
02:25<Nat_aS>I get my hopes up
02:26<Nat_aS>only to find it's LOL TEMPRATE
02:26<Nat_aS>also fucking huge maps
02:26<Nat_aS>Just because you can, dosn't mean you should
02:33<Flygon>Y'know, Nat
02:33<Flygon>You can export the heightmap
02:33<Flygon>And manually adjust the map from there
02:34<Flygon>Placing towns and industries would suck, though
02:34<Flygon>Shame there's no method of reporting, at the very least, towns
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02:34<Flygon>This has me particulary annoyed, for example, with regard to a scenario I've provided a heightmap for
02:34<Flygon>And have since, improved my heightmap techniques
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02:37<NGC3982>Morning, deamons and democrats.
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02:41<Nat_aS>i suck at heightmapping
02:42<Nat_aS>and yeah, I like industries placed with care, but I'm too lazy to do it myself
02:42<Nat_aS>I'm just fustrated that all the energy people have in making maps, is wasted on making giant ugly temprate maps with random industries
03:01<Flygon>Nat_aS: All I did was use the DEM method
03:01<Flygon>But the trick is getting the output to look good
03:01<Flygon>As it turns out
03:01<Flygon>Blur is your friend
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03:21<NGC3982>I have never played a heightmap.
03:21<NGC3982>I actually don't even know the difference.
03:21<Flygon>Heightmaps lack anything but the land
03:21<NGC3982>Oh, 'Heightmap' only defines how the map was made?
03:23<Flygon>Literally the height of the map
03:23<Flygon>As in, altitude
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05:36<andythenorth>do we want diagonal canals?
05:36<andythenorth>I'll draw them if needed
05:36<andythenorth>also rivers
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>yes and yes. problem is, you can't build rails on the other half :/
05:37<andythenorth>same applies to railtypes
05:37<andythenorth>new map :P
05:37<andythenorth>map layers :P
05:37<NGC3982>andythenorth: Yes.
05:38<andythenorth>juanjo's 'multiple docks' patch looks interesting
05:38<NGC3982>Diagonal stuff taste good.
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05:38<andythenorth>I should have prefixed my question with 'do people who have commit rights think diagonal canals rivers are worth drawing' :P
05:38<Flygon>Everything needs diagonals
05:38<Flygon>inb4 road railtype
05:38<NGC3982>Just take Flatland
05:39<NGC3982>Flatland needs diagonals.
05:39*NGC3982 is so bored out he could eat an employee.
05:49<TrueBrain>is she hot?
05:55<Flygon>Or Spicy
05:55<Flygon>I completely missed TrueBrain's joke just then
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06:09<TGYoshi>How does one play well in multiplayer? ._.
06:09<TGYoshi>the game's insanely slow and I barely earn money compared to others
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06:12<Eddi|zuHause>that depends on the settings
06:14<TGYoshi>What kind of?
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06:14<Eddi|zuHause>all of them...
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>mainly newgrfs
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>or goals/gamescripts
06:15<TGYoshi>Just the basic non-modded game
06:16<TGYoshi>I know you should lay a long track from coal to the energy thing, but somehow it's so insanely slow since I can't fast-forward
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>i usually start with passengers nowadays
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>find two large cities that are close, build tram network to shove the passengers to the station, and add some trains between the stations... watch money pour in both ways
06:17<TGYoshi>trains or roads?
06:18<TGYoshi>Wait, trams == trains? :P
06:18<TGYoshi>actually a neat idea since you get cash both ways
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>there are a few sublte differences between trams and trains :)
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06:20<TGYoshi>I don't see a way to build tramss, however, tho
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>yes, trams are only added by newgrfs, the default vehicles don't have any
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>but you can use busses instead :)
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>or if the server rules allow it, you can also just put several bus stops connected to the station via ctrl+click, but then you have trouble keeping the town rating up
06:23<TGYoshi>Trams allow tracks to be placed on roads?
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, tram rails are built on top of roads, and they don't crash with road vehicles
06:26<Flygon>They can't overtake, though
06:27<TGYoshi>passengers seem to work decently
06:27<TGYoshi>Do you just afk a bit at the beginning or so? XD
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what you mean... i watch the trains move, obviously...
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>what else is the point of the game? :p
06:28<TGYoshi>well, if I go single player I just fast forward a bit till I can build on
06:28<V453000>just make stuff cheaper :) more action
06:29<TGYoshi>"Just make stuff cheaper" :D
06:29<V453000>what is wrong with that? :)
06:30<TGYoshi>Too bad it doesn't work like that in multiplayer :(
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>just max out your loan and build the most profitable routes you can find...
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>i never use FF
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>the game is generally rather too fast
06:31<Flygon>Eddi: Darn right
06:31<V453000>it does work like that in multiplayer, just load basecosts mod last and done
06:32<Flygon>Playing through from 1842 to 2016 on a Europe scenario, and still lacking enough time to cover Europe with HSR before I run out of new steel rain trains
06:32<TGYoshi>[12:31.17] <Eddi|zuHause> i never use FF
06:32<Flygon>I can't wait for an introduction of the Chinese 400km/h trains :p
06:32<Flygon>I did use FF in that game, though... finance @_@
06:32<V453000>you dont need FF if you have cheap trains
06:32<TGYoshi>[12:31.05] <Eddi|zuHause> just max out your loan
06:33<TGYoshi>what do you mean?
06:33<V453000>borrow all 500k?
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>you do know about the finance window, right??
06:33<TGYoshi>you can borrow money? rofl
06:34<V453000>it depends on the newGRF ... UKRS for example has a bit expensive trains from the start, for example NUTS has extremely cheap trains so you can play as much as possible
06:34<TGYoshi>amazes me how insanely less I know about the game :3
06:34<Flygon>I had expensive trains... I kept going broke because I was upgrading placeholder rails to HSR and getting TGV units :p
06:35<TGYoshi>so you can start with 600k default
06:36<Flygon>Doesn't the starting money depend on the currency?
06:36<Flygon>eg. 1 mil Euro, $2 mil USD?
06:37<TGYoshi>600k eur
06:37<Flygon>Er, wait, I'm thinking about how much you can get loaned...
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>internally everything is calculated in £
06:37<Flygon>I thought the default starting Euro was 200k?
06:38<TGYoshi>Yea, default 200k eur
06:38<Flygon>At least, that's how my Europe scenario wen- gotcha
06:38<Markk>You can change how much money you can loan.
06:41<@planetmaker>within a small range only, though. like 100k ... 300k GBP or so
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06:43<Eddi|zuHause>up to 500k£
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08:31<DanMacK>Hey all
08:35<Flygon>I like the name
---Logclosed Mon Nov 19 08:54:14 2012
---Logopened Mon Nov 19 08:55:56 2012
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09:47<Eddi|zuHause>o hell...
09:54<NGC3982>Good afternoon.
09:55<NGC3982>TrueBrain: -She +they, and yes, since there are only me and women around here, i would say so.
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10:17<FLHerne>supermop: Hoyo :-)
10:17<supermop>hows it going?
10:18<supermop>so im not working today
10:19<FLHerne>That sounds fun :-)
10:19<supermop>but im off this afternoon to see a new exhibit of japanese post war art from 1950-70
10:19<supermop>at moma
10:19<supermop>im actually a member of the museum so i could have seen it earlier, but I was lazy so now I must fight the crowds
10:20<supermop>hopefully a monday won'tt be too bad
10:20<supermop>so can't partake in a game today
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10:42<Goosecap>is it illegal to use signd to stop other ppl using your mine, once you have started using it on a multiplayer game?
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10:45<andythenorth>mustache looks plausible for nml templating
10:45<andythenorth>chameleon is not for everyone :P
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>Goosecap: that depends on your server's house rules, but usually this behaviour is frowned upon.
10:46<Ammler>Goosecap: it's at least not fun :-)
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10:46<Goosecap>ok but what if someone is shadowing your company and trying to halm it?
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: they charge tax on winnings in california?
10:48<andythenorth>apparently :P
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>nothing interesting in the rest of the text :)
10:49<Goosecap>im playing on the redarmy server and i cant find any rules for it
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>Goosecap: ask an administrator of the server
10:50<Goosecap>ive never seen one
10:50<Goosecap>how do i go about finding one?
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>then leave the server and pick one with an active administrator/moderator team :)
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10:55<@peter1138>Heh, OpenTTD on RISC OS on the Raspberry Pi. It's a bit slow...
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>play smaller maps!! :p
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>it can't really be as slow as TT on my old 386 :)
10:56<@peter1138>It took about 3 minutes to get to the main menu :p
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>ok... :)
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>get a smaller data/newgrf/... directory :)
10:57<@peter1138>Must be something not quite right, this is a 700MHz machine, and loads of RAM.
10:57<@peter1138>Nothing in there except opengfx/sfx/msx
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11:28<Nat_aS>scrolling up, I'd rather see diagonal roads than rivers
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: whole different class of problems
11:31<frosch123>how about removing diagonal rail? :p
11:32<Nat_aS>man, I tried to give locomotion another try
11:32<Nat_aS>because it has realistic curves and shit
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: diagonal rivers is mostly graphical, as ships already travel diagonally across these tiles
11:32<Nat_aS>and elivated track
11:32<Nat_aS>but god, the pathfinding is retarded
11:32<Nat_aS>and there are no advanced signals in most maps
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: whereas diagonal roads are creating a whole new class of road crossings
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>which need new movement patterns and stuff
11:33<Nat_aS>like you need to keep every train isolated on it's own track to avoid conflicts
11:33<Nat_aS>I just noticed RVs can pass each other, was this allways the case?
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: those are "quantum effects" to resolve deadlocks
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>in original TT occasionally you got bunches of trucks which could not travel forward or backward, usually in front of truck stations. thus openttd introduced "road vehicle queueing" to avoid these situations and "quantum effects" to resolve these situations in case they still happen
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>this has been included for ages
11:37<Nat_aS>not sure how faster veichiles passing behind slower ones resolves deadlocks
11:37<Nat_aS>what if there is another one going the other way?
11:37<Nat_aS>will it magicaly pass through it? or does this only happen when the road is clear?
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>the quantum effects should only happen if the vehicle is standing still for some times
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>simple overtaking should not cause this effect
11:39<Nat_aS>well overtaking is what I was asking about
11:39<Nat_aS>did this allways happen?
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>if a vehicle hits an opposite vehicle, it stops and joins back behind the one it was overtaking
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>overtaking is not "pass through", it's "pass by" :)
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that was always there
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>even in TT
11:39<Nat_aS>i said pass by
11:39<Nat_aS>I think
11:39<ntoskrnl>i've seen vehicles just pass through another one going the other way
11:39<Nat_aS>i said passing behind
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>you said neither
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>just "pass"
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>so it was ambiguous
11:40<Nat_aS>ntoskrnl: that's because the sprites are too large
11:40<Nat_aS>they aren't really passing through each other, it's just the sprites
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11:40<Nat_aS>in game terms, they are on opisate sides of the road
11:41<ntoskrnl>no, i mean, they pass through each other during an overtake
11:42<frosch123>wow... i did not know what the weird term "quantum effect" in ottd referred to
11:42<Nat_aS>but don't you see one at least try to go on the other side of the road?
11:42<Nat_aS>it's probably because the sprite takes up the whole road, instead of just half
11:42<Nat_aS>the game dosn't handle large trucks diffrently
11:43<frosch123>hmm, or did we even remove it because noone understood what it meant?
11:43<ntoskrnl>Nat_aS: yes, sometimes they go back to the other side as you said, and sometimes they just "magically" pass through each other
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: there were definitely some discussions, but i have no idea what the text reads now
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>anyway: :)
11:44<frosch123>yeah, it's still in the settings name
11:44<frosch123>STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ROAD_VEHICLE_QUEUEING :Road vehicle queueing (with quantum effects): {STRING2}
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11:45<frosch123>ok, but that setting does not control anything wrt. the passing-through
11:48<frosch123>and the pass-through already was in ottd 0.1
11:48<frosch123>so, that setting had nothing to do with it, ever
11:49<frosch123>so, the setting name still makes no sense :p
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>that may be true :)
11:52<frosch123>maybe it only refers to that the quantum effects are very likely to occur when enabling the queueing
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13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24756 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2012-11-19 18:46:23 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>korean - 8 changes by telk5093
13:46<@DorpsGek>romanian - 20 changes by kkmic
13:46<@DorpsGek>swedish - 1 changes by Joel_A
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14:32<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r24757 trunk/src/lang/greek.txt (2012-11-19 19:32:45 UTC)
14:32<@DorpsGek>-Fix: broken Greek translation
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14:47<Rubidium>ahoi andythenorth
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15:30<Wolf01>hello o/
15:32<Wolf01>I almost had an heartache, I found my desktop pc with a 800x600 resolution, weird video drivers, extremely slow...
15:33<__ln__>and then you set it back to the old and familiar 640x480
15:34<Wolf01>I had to restart in safe mode to be able to install the latest version of the video drivers
15:35<Wolf01>maybe it's taking it's revenge as I started to use extensively my asus slate
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17:04<@Terkhen>good night
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17:09<krinn>hi guys, vehicle state are bits? i mean a vehicle at station might have VS_RUNNING + VS_AT_STATION or only one or the other ?
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17:17<Eddi|zuHause>there is no VS_RUNNING, but yes, the VS_ bits are a bitmask
17:17<krinn>VS_RUNNING The vehicle is currently running.
17:18<krinn>i wonder what AIVehicle.GetState will return for a vehicle at station so, both VS_RUNNING+VS_AT_STATION ?
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>i can't find these in the code at all
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17:21<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: no, those seem to be a simple enum
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>so it can't be two values at the same time
17:21<krinn>i have test, yes, one or the other
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17:22<Afdal>Hey, any developers around?
17:22<krinn>looks like VS_AT_STATION imply anyway VS_RUNNING else it whould be VS_STOPPED || VS_CRASHED
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>if (v->current_order.IsType(OT_LOADING)) return ScriptVehicle::VS_AT_STATION;
17:23<krinn>afdal, ask your question, except if your question was really to know if dev are near, which i'm sure is not your question
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17:24<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, i suppose a crashed/stopped vehicle won't be OT_LOADING even if it is at station no?
17:24<krinn>ok thank your Eddi|zuHause
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17:25<Eddi|zuHause>"if the employee dies during a buisiness trip, the business trip is considered to have ended"
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>[paraphrased, but this is an actual sentence in the german law]
17:26<krinn>lol, to make sure the other trip fees the employee now is taking won't be endorse by the company ?
17:26<krinn>in case God decide to make people pay for the trip :)
17:27<Afdal>I ask this question a lot and I need a developer to answer it
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17:27<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think it is primarily because of money, it's just a bureaucracy issue
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17:29<krinn>Afdal, could "maybe" answer it ?
17:30<Afdal>I think I'll just wait
17:30<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, it's in what ? work law ?
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: a developer will _never ever_ answer to the question "is a developer here"
17:30<Afdal>Whenever other people try to answer it it's usually just some condescending argument like "why are you playing like that" :(
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17:31<Afdal>well gee
17:31<Afdal>Hey planetmaker, you on?
17:31<krinn>lol so devs are not condescendant ? it comes with the status, be dev, get the condescendant shield up
17:32<krinn>Afdal, for your information, Eddi|zuHause is a stealth one
17:32<krinn>but don't tell him i've told you !
17:32<Afdal>ono {:
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>i saw that!
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17:33<krinn>erf, someone stole my nick !
17:34<Afdal>all right..
17:34<krinn>just ask your question dude
17:34<krinn>you won't die getting condescendant answer, and you even may get a nice one
17:34<Afdal>Can anyone explain this behavior to me?
17:35<Afdal>I'd like to understand how the pathfinding works such that this happens
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: the pathfinder is deterministic, so when both the left and the right path return equal values, it will always pick the same path
17:35<krinn>so it's an easy question, basic pathfinding
17:35<Afdal>Aren't those paths the same?
17:35<Afdal>Why would it choose a different path just by moving the waypoint
17:36<krinn>no the waypoint could add an extra cost/hit/determining point to the pathfinder
17:36<Afdal>I just want to know exactly why though
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: there's a pathfinder debug mode
17:37<krinn>because pathfinder works like that, costs to find the path
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: go to the console and say "debug_level pf=3" or so
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>it may not be too meaningful, though
17:37<Afdal>what does the pf number do?
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>in general, debug level 0 means "only the most important errors", and debug level 9 means "every fucking detail you have"
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>the steps in between are not always different, but sometimes
17:38<@planetmaker>Afdal, different paths NEVER can be the same. The PF is deterministic
17:38<@planetmaker>even when they're mirrored, they're different
17:39<Afdal>So how are they err differently different in those two examples?
17:39<@planetmaker>order of tiles. And I don't know the orders of the trains. So I cannot even remotely tell
17:39<Afdal>there are no trains ahead of the track on those to influence the decision
17:40<Afdal>oh order
17:40<Afdal>Just the waypoint is in the orders
17:40<krinn>the waypoint position influence decision too
17:40<@planetmaker>obviously. So PF'ing ends at the order
17:40<@planetmaker>and you wonder that paths are different?
17:41<@planetmaker>like krinn says.
17:41<Afdal>Well, I'd like to understand it enough that I can predict what path a train will take in such a situation
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17:41<Afdal>But isn't the waypoint on the same position for each path?
17:41<krinn>if you bad at prediciting, try, once it take it, it will always take the same
17:41<@planetmaker>left != right
17:41<@planetmaker>and behind tunnel != before tunnel
17:42<Afdal>I mean
17:42<@planetmaker>so each of the 4 paths differs
17:42<Afdal>aren't they equal in each example?
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17:42<Afdal>I just don't understand how moving it past the tunnel completely changes the path preference
17:42<@planetmaker>and why which is chosen can reliably only be told when you actually do the calculations and look at the code to see what happens how to break ties
17:42<Afdal>That's what I want to know
17:43<@planetmaker>the code is the documentation
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: pathfinding works (roughly) after the "A* algorithm", i.e. you make a list of "next" tiles at each branch, and then pick the tile with the lowest distance, pick the next tile, add their distances, and insert it back into the list. whether the left path or the right path gets to the destination first is deterministic for each track layout, but (even marginally) different track layouts may change the order of destination tiles which
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>are reached
17:43<krinn>Afdal, look at a* doc, you will get the picture easy
17:43<@planetmaker>I'm afraid that there's no more satisfying answer than these given
17:43<Afdal>a* doc?
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: my guess is that the switches before the tunnel entrance make the difference
17:43<@planetmaker>No-one, I fear, knows more by heart than this
17:44<@planetmaker>and all beyond is looking at the actual implementation
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: a left switch is handled differently than a right switch, wrt. the order of the exits
17:44<Afdal>Hmm, I'm getting "Unknown debug level pf=3." when I try that zuHause
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>and that jumbles up your perceived calculation order
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: then leave out the =
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. make a space
17:45<krinn> here's an animated gif of a* working
17:46<Afdal>`that doesn't seem to work either zuHause
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17:46<@planetmaker>Afdal, and wrt "you need a developer": you need a person familiar with that particular part of the code. I guess many AI authors, e.g. like krinn know its behavioru and workings similarily well as anyone who is listed as developer
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>"debug_level pf 3"
17:46<@planetmaker>it's condescending to assume otherwise ;-)
17:48<+michi_cc>It's yapf and not pf, but I doubt it will help you much.
17:48<Afdal>Do I need a special build or something to get debug mode to work?
17:48<@planetmaker>pf is not a debugging thing. It's yapf
17:49<Afdal>now where do I see the output for this?
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>ah, right
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: try "developer 2"
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17:49<krinn>Afdal, on developper console (lol yes condescending answer!)
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>that should get you the debug output to the ingame console as well as to the outside console
17:50<Afdal>Now how do I read this YAPF gibberish...
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>there was a thread at the forum trying to decipher that recently
17:51<@planetmaker>"recently" :-)
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17:51<Eddi|zuHause>"in the past few weeks"
17:52<krinn>well, even understanding them will only answer why it pickup that path, not the answer he expect "how can i let it pickup the other path on next try"
17:52<krinn>it was you real question no ? having it taking a path, than the other one next time?
17:53<Afdal>Nah I just want to understand it really
17:53<Afdal>I'm curious
17:53<@planetmaker>well. Picking the other path on next try... only feasible on cost of more code complexity. Which certainly is not welcome at that place
17:53<Afdal>I don't think I can use this as an actual networking trick
17:53<krinn>so seriously any basic tuto for a* will answer you better
17:53<Afdal>What is A*
17:53<@planetmaker>a pf algorithm
17:53<krinn>a star, basic algo for pathfinding in computer
17:53<@planetmaker>read up on wiki for details
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: a modified dijkstra with a bias for "air distance"
17:54<krinn>just wikipedia should answer your curiousity imo
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17:55<Eddi|zuHause>a bachelor level computer science course should answer it as well :)
17:55<krinn>lol no with easy sample
17:55*planetmaker didn'th ave that and used wiki :-P
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17:58*planetmaker now will not only read up on but implement and make use of a tool called 'bed'. ;-)
17:58<@planetmaker>night everyone :-)
17:58<krinn>night planetmaker
17:58<Flygon>Hyvaa yota
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>that looks finnish, but misses lots of 'ä's
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18:00<Afdal>where can I find that yapf thread you were talking about
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>i know a lot, but i'm not a search engine...
18:01<Afdal>Is this it?
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>that looks right, but maybe you should use the official url :)
18:03<Flygon>Eddi: Lack of appropriate keyboard
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>dead keys or compose key :)
18:04<Afdal>doesn't alt-132 work for you
18:04<Afdal>if you're on Windows
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18:07<Flygon>Afdal: Not in X-Chat, it seems
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18:07<krinn>there's xchat for windows no?
18:08<Flygon>Hyaáá test
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>might need a alt+0132
18:08<Flygon>I used the wrong a, probably
18:08<Flygon>krinn: Yes
18:08<krinn>ä ?
18:08<__ln__>Flygon: should be available on windows
18:08<Flygon>krinn: That was probably what I was looking to copypasta
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18:09<Flygon>Okay, turns out the alt trick works in Notepad @_@
18:10<Flygon>I lack an 'Alt Gr' button
18:10<Flygon>It's not a full sized keyboard
18:11<Flygon>One of those laptop keyboards that somehow fits a numpad
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18:13<Eddi|zuHause>historically, altgr should be simulated by ctrl+alt
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18:14<krinn>you can exect an echo in xchat no ?
18:15<krinn>lol i'll try
18:15<krinn>ah doesn't work, is not echoing it
18:21<Flygon>Let's best not worry about it :p
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18:32*Mister_Argent is playing with the scenario editor.
18:33<Afdal>Well that debug output didn't help me out as much as I thought it would :(
18:33<Mister_Argent>Quick question, do i just use the bomb tool to remove unneeded towns?
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: you could try if debug level 9 gives you more spam ;)
18:34<Afdal>level 3 is the max output for yapf
18:34<Afdal>Click on the town name Mister_Argent
18:34<Afdal>There's a delete option that will wipe it out completely
18:35<Mister_Argent>Why didn't i think of that?
18:35*Mister_Argent finishes off knocking out a few islands for hand remodelling
18:35<krinn>Afdal : look
18:36<krinn>it's an easy to understand doc
18:36<Mister_Argent>I'm mostly letting the random generator do it's work for my first scenario but i am throwing in one or two named cities and doing some remodelling to make the islands a little sparser
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18:37<Mister_Argent>Say, what happens when two cities collide?
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: i'm still fairly convinced that the asymmetric switches are the key to the difference
18:37<Afdal>asymmetric switches?
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: before the tunnel entrance
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>the left track has a right switch, and the right track has a left switch
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>which means the trackbits differ
18:38<Afdal>that could explain it
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>and the trackbits have different order
18:38<Afdal>it would have to cycle through those slightly differently int he pathfinding wouldn't it
18:39<Afdal>let me try making them both the same...
18:40<Afdal>hmm, nope
18:40<Mister_Argent>hmm, so that's what a 10,000-population city looks like.
18:41<Afdal>they're still opposite despite identical distances to waypoint
18:41<Afdal>depends on the road layout Mister_Argent ;)
18:42<Afdal>oh that wasn't a question
18:42<Mister_Argent>well, the cities of Bungeling Bay North and Bungeling Bay South are both lookin' pretty sprawly :p
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: you could add additional debug statements to the follow_track function (but be careful with looking at the yapf code, people have reportedly gone insane :p)
18:42<Afdal>How would I do that?
18:42<Mister_Argent>BNorth has a hearty population of 10,243 and BSouth has 10,455
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: grep for DEBUG
18:43<krinn>afdal i think it's because a* implementation
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: assuming you have a working compile environment :)
18:43<krinn>when both line are the same value, you need to favorite one or the other
18:43<Afdal>oh you want me to compile @_@
18:43<Afdal>What's OpenTTD written in again
18:43<krinn>if implementation favor upper, you get higher score upper
18:43<Mister_Argent>6502 Assembly
18:44<Afdal>well the pathfinding values are the same so yeah it's something about choosiness in node cycling
18:44<Mister_Argent>And my first scenario is complete!
18:45<Mister_Argent>The Bungeling Isles, a 2048x2048 chain of somewhat connected islands dotted with industries and cities.
18:45<Mister_Argent>Now then, time to give it a spin in singleplayer to see if it's actually any fun to play.
18:45<krinn>and Afdal the waypoint change the scoring
18:46<Afdal>yeah the pathfinding values are different between the two examples, but equal among the track split choices
18:46<krinn>one must pathfinding upto behind the tunnels, while the other pathfind upto the waypoint (and will repathfindind after the waypoint)
18:47<Afdal>in the tunnel version there are 3 closed nodes while the shorter one only has one closed node
18:48<Mister_Argent>The somewhat problematic terrain, thus far, has limited rail as a immediately practical option a little. Still plenty of landbridges around, though.
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: that's to be expected when you have 4 tunnels
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18:49<Mister_Argent>Still, the idea here was to set up a map where the usual strategies for profit may not be the most effective so that was kind of the idea
18:50<Afdal>What's interesting is when I remove a bit of track at the tunnel splits so that there's no longer a choice there
18:50<Afdal>it reverts back to the preference when the waypoints are right after the track split
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>that supports my theory
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>that the switches cause the difference
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18:55<drac_boy>how're you krinn?
18:58<krinn>fine and tired, must be the late time :p
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18:59<krinn>and you ?
19:00<drac_boy>doing ok, just browsing online a bit now....quiet night to myself here :)
19:02<Afdal>What I don't understand is how the yapf output is giving values like 942 for pathfinding penalty
19:02<Afdal>Most penalties are in multiples of 100
19:03<Afdal>no wait all of them all
19:03<Afdal>by default
19:03<Afdal>all of them are*
19:03<Afdal>Unless there are more penalties that can't be found in openttd.cfg
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>there's things like red/green signal penalty which is a polynom
19:03<krinn>yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p2 = 5
19:04<Afdal>but you can't get 42 from 5
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>it's a coefficient
19:04<krinn>it is my settings here, you may have a different one :)
19:04<Afdal>I missed that penalty
19:04<Afdal>still 5 isn't a multiple of 42
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>p2*x^2+p1*x+p0 or so
19:05<krinn>grep yapf openttd.cfg
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>where x is the number of the signal and whether it's red or green
19:05<krinn>i get 32 results
19:05<Afdal>Why do you people keep saying "grep" @_@
19:05<V453000>you are still talking about that? :D
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>"grep" is named after the unix tool that searches through files for certain words
19:05<krinn>you don't know grep ?
19:06<krinn>it's a command to grab a word inside something
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's like "google" where the name of the program became the action of using the program
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>just that this was 30 years ago :)
19:06<Afdal>Is that the only polynomial penalty zuHause?
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: not entirely sure
19:07<Afdal>and it's just a quadratic function?
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>at least that's how i remember it
19:08<Afdal>Wait so what is that look ahead signal penalty and how does it work?
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>this was introduced 5 years ago, i don't remember every detail
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: it's some rudimentary load balancing
19:08<Afdal>that's the only penalty I've never understood
19:09<Afdal>And what is x?
19:09<Afdal>in p2*x^2+p1*x+p0
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>depending on where the first red signal on the track is, the train may decide to take the other path if the length are almost equal
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>x should be the position of the signal, counted from the current location of the train
19:10<Afdal>distance in tiles?
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>no, number of the signal
19:10<Afdal>so it only looks ahead three signals for that penalty?
19:11<krinn>you were expecting Eddi|zuHause to writing it for every signals in the screenshots ? :)
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>the first signal gets penalty p2+p1+p0, the second signal penalty p2*4+p1*2+p0, the third signal p2*9+p1*3+p0 and so on
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19:12<Afdal>and that's if the signal is red right?
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>by default the limit is 10 signals ahead
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes. it should only add the penalty for red signals
19:13<Afdal>if they're all green there's no penalty right
19:13<krinn>did you enable showing path in openttd ?
19:13<krinn>should gave a better visual result than the numbers no ?
19:14<Afdal>uh, no...
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: that won't show the pathfinder result
19:14<Afdal>thanks cool
19:14<krinn>no, but a bit of track the pathfinder is seeing
19:14<Afdal>I've never understood how that penalty works
19:15<krinn>the concept ?
19:15<Mister_Argent>Ah, here comes the team of AI Partycrashers.
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>Mister_Argent: i always disable AIs
19:16<Afdal>yeah, could figure out easily enough how the other penalties in openttd.cfg work just by their name
19:16<Mister_Argent>I'm testing out a scenario in singleplayer. wanna make sure it's as fun to play as my concept made it sound...
19:16<krinn>it's quiet easy: put nails in right path, lol must be a penalty for human without shoes
19:19<Afdal>although now I'm still confused on how I'm getting numbers like 942 when there aren't any red signals ahead of the paths on this example I'm using to test
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19:22<krinn>this look a low value for me
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19:22<Afdal>Well I'm tired of this for now
19:22<krinn>yapf.rail_lastred_exit_penalty = 10000
19:22<Afdal>Thanks for the info you two
19:22<krinn>so 942 is a low value
19:22<Afdal>low value?
19:22<krinn>well if you get 10000 penalty, you can say 942 is quiet a low value then
19:23<krinn>as i have penalty from 5 to 10000
19:23<krinn>big range
19:25<krinn>some are even negative in my config :)
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>~900 means about 9 tiles
19:25<krinn>yapf.rail_look_ahead_max_signals = 10
19:25<krinn> (for previous question to Eddi|zuHause )
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>sp a penalty of 10000 means "consider a detour of 100 tiles before you try to go here"
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: also penalties may be multiplied by 0.7 for diagonal trackbits, not entirely sure
19:27<Afdal>Oh really?
19:27<krinn>Afdal, hehe were you thinking it was that easy
19:28<krinn>going to bed guys, sleep well
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19:29<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: maybe you should really learn to read code to answer this kind of questions yourself :)
19:29<Afdal>I can read code
19:30<Afdal>Not that great at C++ though
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>all of this penalty stuff should be in the follow_track function
19:30<Afdal>follow_track function?
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: the pathfinder is this hughe templated conglomerate, and the "follow_track" function is the only thing that differs between the road, rail, ship, ... pathfinders
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. the function that decides which tiles are adjacent to this one
19:32<Afdal>No I mean can I see that function
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>you can grep the code :)
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>again, i'm not a search engine :)
19:32<Afdal>Maybe I will
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19:40<Eddi|zuHause># And when I was born, they looked at me and said, "What a good boy, what a smart boy, what a strong boy."
19:40<Eddi|zuHause># When you were born, they looked at you and said, "What a good girl, what a smart girl, what a pretty girl."
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20:25*drac_boy pokes flygon?
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20:57<drac_boy>so what doing? :)
20:58<Flygon>Just got home
21:14<drac_boy>flygon btw if you're ok with train stories as usual heres another one....
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21:17<drac_boy>tehachapi loop originally built by southern pacific ... one end of it heads toward a tunnel on upgrade ... so anyway this photographer decided to take his free day to go take some photos but he came across one unexpected little surprise...
21:17<drac_boy>heavy freight with 3 units on head and one helper on rear .. but one head unit was dead ... train slowly headed toward tunnel still but then engineer finally decided for the best and carefully stopped the train to back it into the siding (which is on the loop itself eh) ...
21:19<drac_boy>dispatcher sent other trains around it including one "dinky" local (just one emd SD9 and a few random wagons) ... then finally found some help in another freight that was heading other direction ...
21:19<drac_boy>this train came to a stop and tied down in the siding .. and the three unit then cut off to bank the initial train up through the tunnel
21:20<drac_boy>photographer sure took a lot of photos of that one day heh
21:20<Flygon>Here, if a unit is dead, it's usually on fire
21:20<Flygon>Dynamic brake failure
21:21<drac_boy>still you do have to wonder .. a 3+1 train with only 2+1 working ... so it decided to hold the siding while the lone helper went away to keep mainline free till some help could be found which then made it a 2+3 train which was good enough for them!
21:22<drac_boy>flygon and btw in the early years of diesels and when certain 'extras' were considered costly for their uses .. you sometimes could find certain locomotives looking oddly out of their place like they were not on their home rails anymore....
21:22<drac_boy>like for example if you saw a freight train coming down with heavy brake smoke curls and the leading diesel has no radiator flares .. you're looking at a flatland locomotive that somehow got pressed into the hilly route instead
21:23<drac_boy>aka .. no dynamic brakes at all
21:24<drac_boy>or a emd GP9 looking like its walloping a lot even although the track is not that bad .. some of the early ones had switcher trucks rather than road trucks .. so they didn't ride so well under constant speed :)
21:25<Flygon>Oh geeze @_@
21:25<Flygon>Sounds like fun
21:25<drac_boy>and then theres of course the few locomotives that didn't have the standard 24L brake stand ... which was not too uncommon at first
21:26<drac_boy>flygon which of that reminds me....
21:27<drac_boy>I forgot which railroad it was but if you ever see a high-nose emd geep with two fat tubes on its roof ... thats what a lot of people joking call them "torpedo tube geeps" ... since they do look like THAT on their roof :)
21:27<drac_boy>there was a reason for that tho heh
21:27<drac_boy>steam generator could fit into the high nose no problem .. but water supply is another thing .. so shorten the fuel tank a bit .. and fill up the rest of space with water .. and force the air tanks up to the top of the roof instead ... there we go!
21:29<drac_boy>flygon this is a bit different twist on it but still you can see why the resemble to actual tubes :p
21:29<Flygon>Doesn't seem that bad
21:32<drac_boy>flygon btw its old story but when there were still a lot of coach tradings and/or moves around major stations ... that were where you almost always could find a 0-6-0 or 0-8-0 switcher running around causing a lot of smoke everywhere ....
21:33<Flygon>Lack of 0-4-0 shunters?
21:34<drac_boy>and one of the interesting thing that they had over diesels for a while in the 40-50's was they were too good at doing a drop-shunt ... back onto the platform track needed ... move throttle to neutral .. drop the coupler ... shove throttle forward .. and the loco itself scat like a stray cat
21:34<drac_boy>thats what happen when you got pressure build-up in the cylinders .. something a diesel-electric never can emulate
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21:34<drac_boy>so mm yeah they could make some pretty fast shuntings if needed to
21:35<Flygon>Heh, nice
21:35<drac_boy>and btw flygon .. a 0-4-0 has almost nothing to stop its siderod inherita from causing the two axles to wallop like silly and possibly causing it to derail a lot
21:35<drac_boy>thats why it was always at least three axles period
21:35<Flygon>Ah, gotcha
21:37<drac_boy> for fast example is when a train comes in at 11:27 .. and two wagons have to be re-spotted for another train that has to leave at 11:36 ... nine minutes isn't a lot of times to get THAT one in order while still being mindful of other trains/shunters using the large station throat as well :)
21:37<drac_boy>so heh yeah .. no wonder about all these little locos scattering everywhere :)
21:37<Flygon>It sounds like a logistical nightmare
21:37<drac_boy>well flygon...
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21:41<drac_boy>Bufallo had a lot of trains that never left in the same consist they came in
21:41<drac_boy>so...yeah just about any schedule you saw on the station list board .. there was always at least one or more wagon that had to be traded to another train :)
21:42<drac_boy>and made worser by NYC having to run a lot of second sections
21:43<drac_boy>flygon but of course if you wanted the exact opposite then .. in the 50's there were a lot of small railroads around the middle usa belt ... many of them were mixed trains like I told you about before ... never in any rush or anything :)
21:44<Flygon>Explains why they died out
21:44<drac_boy>so yeah could be nothing like seeing an old journal bearing locomotive huffing into the little shed-sized station with an old wood coalstove-heated combine on its tail
21:44<drac_boy>and yet as soon as you get off to catch the next station .. suddenly theres a modern big 4-8-2 with a string of lightweight coaches :P
21:46<drac_boy>same thing happened to some riders heading toward the marinetime provinces in canada too .. nothing like a big contrast between an old 1897-built 2-6-0 with no stroker dropping you off at the station then some time later theres suddenly this "huge" Royal Hudson locomotive coming in with a long string of heavyweight coaches
21:47<drac_boy>can't fault anyone tho heh.. the old little locomotive was running on weedy light rails doing its usual occassional freight duties while the Hudson is running a daily express train on fresh heavy rails :p
21:48<drac_boy>flygon of course there were a few places in usa where you had some strange contrasts ... eg how about a 1912-built standard gauge 2-8-0 meeting a 1926-built two feet gauge 2-6-2 at the dual gauge station/shed?
21:49<drac_boy>the little locomotive may be newer but that was the only thing it had going for it .. the older locomotive was better in everything else respectly
21:49<drac_boy>think about that eh? :)
21:50<Flygon>Same stuff has had happened here, actually
21:50<Flygon>Australia is NITORIOUS for gauge breaks
21:50<drac_boy>well dual gauge is rather rare in usa .. so such meets .. even less with the weird age difference is rather unusual :)
21:51<Flygon>It has not been unusual to have a 1890s NG train, 1950s R-class BG Steam Train, and 1980s EMU be in the same station :p
21:51<drac_boy>the only one two-gauge-meets that was even anywhere common at all was in colorado ... D&RGW themself with their mix of the standard gauge and mountain narrow gauge
21:52<Flygon> It's tiny o_o
21:53<Flygon>Here, we've had even triple gauge
21:54<drac_boy>actually one photo put it nicely of an old K-27 looking at a rio grande GP9 heading other way on seperate tracks ... the caption basically said "while the freight train set off on ctc protected rails with diesel power the durango train set off for the mountains on train order with hand fired steam lococmotive"
21:54<Flygon> SG, BG, and NG, SG for NSW services, BG for SA and Vic services, and NG for NT services. The location is inside SA.
21:55<drac_boy>flygon .. 1940-1950s roughly
21:55<drac_boy>and btw flygon the crazy thing was that even in the 1950s there were still some younger firemans that just did not really want to do anything else....
21:56<Flygon>I guess they got forced into driving and conducting?
21:56<Flygon>It happened here
21:56<Flygon> Also, would you believe this happened in 1988? :p
21:56<drac_boy>eg a heavy drag 2-10-0 with a long-broken stroker that wasn't on the fix card (can't blame anyone...costs were going up and theres these diesels slowly coming) .... of course to compound matters .. the route was on weedy rails that had a very bouncy ride even for the five coupled fireman was quite busy with that....
21:57<Flygon>R707 being of particular note, keeping in active duty from the 50s to today :D
21:57<drac_boy>and at end of run ... a bit beat but actually had to say "god, I love that locomotive!" ... heh ... editor added his own note "this is why you don't get any sastification from running diesels, case closed!"
21:57<Flygon>Only ONE fireman? O_O?
21:58<drac_boy>the editor did have a point .. steam locomotives took skill etc .. but diesels were just open throttle and not much else
21:58<drac_boy>btw flygon I need to ask you a stupid question...
21:58<Flygon>I thought electrics were all throttle :p
21:59<Flygon>Heck, we have electrics here with only one throttle. X'traps have a single lever for speed and brakes
21:59<drac_boy>that ba_gladstone photo... do the vestibules on different gauges EVEN mate at all or not so much? I'm wondering about the two very different coaches there
22:00<drac_boy>oic nevermind..almost forgot what time it was...going to bed now
22:00<drac_boy>see you some another time ok? :/
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22:00<Flygon>You can yank stuff with chain cou-
22:00<Flygon>I didn't get to say Good Night
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22:31<BadBrett>"Unrecognized identifier 'age' encountered"
22:31<BadBrett>When I try to use the "age" variable in a house switch block
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22:36<BadBrett>oh my mistake
22:36<BadBrett>as usual :)
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---Logclosed Tue Nov 20 00:00:34 2012