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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-11-21

---Logopened Wed Nov 21 00:00:36 2012
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02:32<@planetmaker>Supercheese, how do you use terminal bus stops to filter for articulated vehicles? You cannot send them there in the first place... Or do you mean manual filtering?
02:32<@planetmaker>good morning everyone
02:33<Supercheese>No, in theory though
02:34<Supercheese>oh, I mean filter out non-articulated
02:34<Supercheese>what did I type...
02:35<Supercheese>I typed what I meant
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02:43<thegcat>morning everyone
02:45<thegcat>a quick google didn't really yield a good answer: is it known that OpenTTD seems/is slow in Retina displays?
02:45<Markk>Are you sure that it's the display that's the problem?
02:45<thegcat>the speed it runs at feels slower on the retina display than on an external 1920x1080 display
02:46<thegcat>(and yes, both cases with the discrete graphics card)
02:47<thegcat>it even feels like OTTD stumbles forward "faster" when a window (like an OS notification) pops up over the OTTD window
02:47<thegcat>anyway, I had also seen peter1138 was looking for people with a retina display, are you still looking for someone? if so ping me
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03:01<@peter1138>Was I?
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03:36<Supercheese>Good night chaps
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04:10<__ln__>http://jolla.com/
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04:50<zatricky>hey guys
04:51<zatricky>I'm looking for documentation on hosting an openttd ftp mirror. Could I get some pointers?
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04:55<dihedral>hello
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04:58<dihedral>Ammler is playing with a bouncer again? :-P
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05:04<Ammler>well, finally we have done the migration so I could make th upgrade I wanted to do 2? months ago :-)
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05:06<Ammler>good morning dih :-)
05:06<dihedral>:-)
05:06<dihedral>hello there
05:07<Ammler>but next upgrade on bouncer will come soon, znc 1.0 :-)
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09:26<NGC3982>Im playing a scenario that does not use any NewGRFs (temperate climate)
09:27<NGC3982>Though, i'm not getting any trains to build.
09:28<NGC3982>Since setting the amount of trains (max_trains) to 0 usually sets the icon to 0 (i guess)?
09:28<NGC3982>I feel a bit befuddled.
09:28<lugo->what year are you in?
09:28<NGC3982>1 of june, 1950.
09:29<NGC3982>Wait, stop.
09:29<NGC3982>The 'design year' of the Kirby Paul Tank is 1925.
09:29<NGC3982>Is that also the introduction year for players?
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes
09:30<lugo->it varies a little i think?
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes
09:30<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/Qf7eb.png
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>up to 2 years
09:30<NGC3982>Note, 1950, no NewGRF's and ..no trains.
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: try going to the console and type "resetengines"
09:33<NGC3982>Executable with rcon?
09:33<@planetmaker>introduction year varies by two years. Unless it's within the first two years after you started the map
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: you don't need rcon in single player
09:33<NGC3982>It's not singleplayer.
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>you probably can't do this in multiplayer
09:34<NGC3982>Nope, t'was forbidden.
09:34<NGC3982>I guess i'd need to restart the game.
09:35<@planetmaker>NGC3982, load in SP. resetengines there. load on server
09:35<@planetmaker>usual way to fix small errors :-)
09:35<NGC3982>Oh, that fix will follow a save game?
09:35<NGC3982>Ill try it.
09:37<NGC3982>"Resetengines" did not have any effect.
09:40<NGC3982>Ill try saving, loading a different scenario (without any GRF's) and see what happends.
09:40<__ln__>if you're not ill, please use the apostrophe.
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>so "im ill"? :)
09:42<__ln__>precisely
09:42<NGC3982>__ln__: I was waiting for you to do that.
09:42<NGC3982>It's kind of nice.
09:42<NGC3982>__ln__: By the way, in of to Helsingfors in a few days.
09:44<__ln__>nice. you can expect clouds and more clouds.
09:45<NGC3982>Im for Kronoberg, i think i can take it.
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10:10<@Terkhen>hello
10:11<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/Odf8l.png
10:11<NGC3982>What's "regearing"?
10:11<NGC3982>Look's like a translation thingy.
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10:15<@peter1138>It's changing the gearing of the locomotive.
10:15*NGC3982 found a chatlog describing it.
10:15<@peter1138>To trade power for speed.
10:16<NGC3982>planetmaker: From a Lime Quarry?
10:18<NGC3982>peter1138: *
10:18<@peter1138>No, that's caused by using incompatible NewGRFs
10:18<NGC3982>I see. It's the Southeast USA scenario.
10:18<NGC3982>I notice from the chat log that PM and Eddi had the same problem, on the same map.
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure i had a "whole USA" map at that time
10:18<@peter1138>You don't expect people to test their stuff, do you?
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is ECS + NARS
10:18<NGC3982>peter1138: Excuse me?
10:18<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: I see.
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>NARS is an "industry set" because of the regearing cargo, so it's incompatible with other industry sets
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>but afair it had a switch to disable regearing
10:19<NGC3982>Ok.
10:19<+michi_cc>FIRS is supposed to keep the regearing slot free, but ECS is probably defining all available cargo types.
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10:36<Flygon>Wouldn't the solution to be to create more slots?
10:36<Flygon>:p
10:41<NGC3982>I'm sorry.
10:41<NGC3982>I got quiet mad at this.
10:41<NGC3982>Accidently turned of my server too.
10:41<NGC3982>Fantastic evening, this.
10:50<+michi_cc>Flygon: Why do you think ECS (or any other GRF) wouldn't just fill these extra slots as well?
10:50<Flygon>Allow 32767 slots
10:50<Flygon>If a signed 16-bit integer can't handle this. God. Help us all.
10:51<+michi_cc>Cargoes are mostly used as sets and not just single cargoes, so you'd need a 32767-bit integer.
10:51<Rubidium>only caveat is... cargo masks (which cargoes does a vehicle support)
10:51<@peter1138>32767 bit integers :D
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>low number of slots is better from an engineering point of view... otherwise you get people who just shove 1000 vehicles into one grf :p
11:04<Flygon>But look at it from a practical point of view
11:04<Flygon>The only way someone will fill up 32767 slots is by feeding it garbage
11:04<Flygon>G'night
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>i think that is a horrible misjudgement on your side :)
11:08<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, sorry about increasing that limit :-(
11:08<NGC3982>I'll never play this game again.
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still lacking a same way to handle MUs with variable number of wagons... refitting is out of the question since i can't set length to 0, and multiple vehicles is awkward since it means multiple prototype offers at different times
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11:23<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: what's wrong with the trick mb uses?
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>it's crazy and totally AI-unfriendly
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>and it has the problem that the wagons still need different lengths
11:24<Rubidium>why?
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>MU middle wagons are often different length than MU end wagons, and i can't have a vehicle both dual-headed and articulated
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>and if i use normal wagons, i need to shorten them to MU wagon length, or if i use special MU wagons i need a way to have them appear at the same time as the MU does
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11:37<@Belugas>hello
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>currently my preferred system would be the different lengths being separate entries of the purchase list, but only one vehicle prototype
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>something vaguely related to MB's "views"
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>except MB wanted that to be graphical only, whereas i would vary the articulated vehicles callback based on it
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11:47<@peter1138>So has anyone coded that yet?
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>of course not :)
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12:10<@planetmaker><Eddi|zuHause> low number of slots is better from an engineering point of view... otherwise you get people who just shove 1000 vehicles into one grf :p <-- lol :-)
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12:28<Eddi|zuHause>something is wrong in this picture... http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/86/8104586/3964653266326632.jpg
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12:49<@planetmaker>nice
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13:33<andythenorth>planetmaker: FIRS is undefining the regearing cargo
13:33<andythenorth>which causes NARS to explode a bit
13:36<@peter1138>Hmm, OpenTTD on raspbian is actually painful.
13:36<@peter1138>Works better under RISC OS
13:36<andythenorth>reminds
13:36<andythenorth>me
13:36<andythenorth>Chocks Away?
13:36<andythenorth>open source clone?
13:37<andythenorth>http://www.starfighter.acornarcade.com/mysite/articles/P3Report/Chapter2.html
13:40<andythenorth>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0x5JbmU6HU
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24759 trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt (2012-11-21 18:45:08 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 1 changes by Bassals
13:45<Wolf01>hello o/
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13:55<@Alberth>efenink
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14:08<@Alberth>hi andy
14:09<andythenorth>hai
14:10*andythenorth wonders what number cargo regearing is
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14:15<@Alberth>a broken concept?
14:16<@Alberth>but more to the point, what numbers did you start to use between both revisions?
14:17<andythenorth>it's 30
14:19<andythenorth>re-enabling that means FIRS will have Fizzy Drinks in Toyland, incorrectly
14:19<andythenorth>which is better?
14:19<andythenorth>NARS bug?
14:19<andythenorth>or Toyland bug?
14:19<andythenorth>or I'm wrong
14:19<andythenorth>no Fizzy Drinks :P
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>check for "NARS present and not in toyland"?
14:20<andythenorth>meh
14:20<andythenorth>:)
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>or simply check for "GEAR is present"?
14:20<andythenorth>fair point
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>and put its value into a parameter for future use?
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14:22<@Alberth>no FIRS in toyland is a 3rd option :)
14:23<andythenorth>obviously anyone using Toyland has bugs of their own
14:23<andythenorth>I can't support buggy users :P
14:24<@Alberth>fair enough :)
14:24<frosch123>andythenorth: https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/Frosch/GS_Area_Control <- might also be interesting for you
14:25<andythenorth>+lots
14:25<andythenorth>frosch123: allows 'unlock new territory' style challenges
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14:32<andythenorth>frosch123: how would 'recommended production level' be defined? As production multiplier value? Or abstraction?
14:33<frosch123>as percentage of "normal production"; latter being define by the grf
14:34<andythenorth>hmm
14:34<frosch123>i.e. just something approximation of "high" or "low", not a specific amount
14:35<andythenorth>it's unrelated to regions, but I favour giving GS control of production multiplier
14:35<andythenorth>can't justify it, just seems right
14:36<frosch123>it's not the goal of gs to micromanage stuff
14:36<frosch123>*purpose
14:36<frosch123>gs can handle "few" global things
14:36<frosch123>they cannot properly control thousands of small things
14:36<andythenorth>ok
14:37<andythenorth>how about prod change is clamped / unclamped by regions?
14:37<frosch123>gs should set the general "idea of the game"
14:37<andythenorth>e.g. cb29 etc
14:37<frosch123>newgrfs have to fill in the details
14:37<andythenorth>I would rather newgrf did a bit less
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14:40<Eddi|zuHause>you CANNOT offload everything FIRS does onto a GS
14:40<andythenorth>I don't propose that
14:40<andythenorth>specifically I think it would be useful if newgrfs relinquished some control over:
14:41<andythenorth>- production changes
14:41<andythenorth>- industry opening
14:41<andythenorth>- industry closing
14:41<andythenorth>those seem to be the important things for GS
14:42<andythenorth>those are all cbs or cb results handled by openttd anyway
14:42<frosch123>but "production depending on supplies" is not a gs thing
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14:42<andythenorth>no
14:43<andythenorth>but it could be made compatible
14:43<andythenorth>to production change
14:43<andythenorth>I nearly did it already, but I need to ask y*xo some questions about current implementation
14:43<frosch123>the idea behind the region approach is to allow asynchronous communication between newgrfs and gs
14:44<frosch123>the gs sets some stuff, and newgrfs react to it
14:44<andythenorth>which requires a set of abstractions...?
14:44<frosch123>there is no direct callback - result thingie
14:45<andythenorth>I'm well aware btw that GS should not be controlling things like production cb etc :)
14:46<frosch123>it just needs telling often enough :p
14:46<frosch123>else people start suggesting to control vehicle acceleration with scripts
14:46<andythenorth>you know that I could rewrite 'regions' as 'NoConomy'? :P
14:47<andythenorth>without anything really changing :P
14:47<frosch123>well, people play with every crap
14:47<frosch123>even manual industries is quite popular
14:47<andythenorth>you could fake production by hacking 'cargo moved to station'
14:47*andythenorth is not putting points in any order, just having ideas (annoying)
14:48<andythenorth>I like this regions thing
14:48*andythenorth food
14:48<andythenorth>if you haven't got bored and gone away when I come back, I will try and make more sense
14:48<frosch123>food always makes sense
14:49<andythenorth>so the default number of regions is 0 or 1?
14:49<frosch123>if it is 1, that one cannot be deleted :p
14:49<Rubidium>roughly 8.53973....
14:50<andythenorth>GS could modify cargo payment rates?
14:51<andythenorth>or is that a massive headache?
14:56<frosch123>might be possible
14:56<frosch123>i am not sure whether this cb or the rating cb or both were on my list of newgrf features to trash and to replace with gs :p
15:01<andythenorth>I find it very odd that FIRS modifies station ratings
15:01<andythenorth>I want the effect
15:01<andythenorth>but maybe I should have made it a separate grf :P
15:03*NGC3982 has made soup for everyone.
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15:08<andythenorth>frosch123: so cb 47 (station rating) and cb 40 (custom profit) - trash?
15:09<andythenorth>meh cb 39
15:09<andythenorth>read the wrong number on the wiki
15:09<andythenorth>and cb 145 (station rating)
15:09<frosch123>i added the profit thingie to the page
15:09<frosch123>just specified it as cumulativ
15:10<frosch123>rating does not sound too useful for being a regional thing
15:10<andythenorth>:)
15:10<andythenorth>no
15:10<andythenorth>nor a GS thing
15:10<andythenorth>rating imho is almost justified as an openttd setting
15:11<andythenorth>we have so many other settings which have zero gameplay benefit :P
15:11<andythenorth>so industry construction - that makes my head hurt
15:12<andythenorth>that would be a multiplier on the action 0 prop?
15:12<frosch123>yes
15:12<andythenorth>what about cb22?
15:12<andythenorth>it would modify the result of that?
15:12<frosch123>well, multiplier to cb22 then
15:13<frosch123>cb22 / a0 refer to map average
15:13<frosch123>the gs would make the map inhomogenous
15:13<frosch123>like firs farm clusters
15:13<andythenorth>how would this relate to industry amount on map gen settings?
15:14<frosch123>no idea :p
15:14<andythenorth>:)
15:14<frosch123>gs can fund industries themself if they really care about an exact number
15:15<frosch123>this is just about influencing the randomness that exists
15:15<andythenorth>I guess I've mentioned that I think the industry counts have issues? :P
15:15<andythenorth>fixing that - if ever - is probably orthogonal
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15:17<V>hai, I have a question ... I want to put arrows which present the direction a train is facing. Is there a way to overlay the sprites with the arrow or do I need to make separate sprites with that arrow added to them?
15:17<V>in NML
15:17<frosch123>you can only draw one sprite per vehicle
15:18<frosch123>so, you have to add the arrow the vehicle image
15:18<V>alright
15:18<V>I thought eGRVTS did something like such overlaying
15:18<frosch123>but ofc. you can use some scripted image processing to do so
15:18<V>guess not :)
15:18<V>thank you
15:18<V>ahh, better not, that sounds evil :)
15:18<V>I prefer the simple methods most of the time :P
15:19<@Alberth>depending on your experience, "simple" may vary :)
15:20<V>well yeah :D
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15:21<andythenorth>lo DanMacK
15:21<DanMacK>Hey
15:22<andythenorth>how are you?
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15:22<DanMacK>Not too bad... busy
15:23<DanMacK>You?
15:24<andythenorth>plotting work
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15:30<@Terkhen>good night
15:31<andythenorth>frosch123: incidentally I think FIRS clusters would be a problem with regions
15:31<andythenorth>I could bin them ;)
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>don't touch that stuff... you have enough to fiddle already :)
15:31<frosch123>i had a discussion with al*erth yesterday about industry densities
15:32<frosch123>one requirement was that newgrfs have to specify whether a industry is meant to cluster or to spread out
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15:35<andythenorth>frosch123: so a 'locate near similar types' or such?
15:35-!-DanMacK [~AndChat61@74.198.9.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:36<frosch123>it was about "prevent appearance of 3 oilrigs in every small lake" vs. "still allow farms to cluster"
15:37<andythenorth>did you have implementation ideas?
15:37<frosch123>nope :p
15:38<andythenorth>min / max distance pair, assume same industry type?
15:38<andythenorth>FIRS has to scale number of clusters by map size etc
15:39<andythenorth>dunno if that should be in scope for regions
15:39<andythenorth>I kind of think regions provide that, it's not a thing for newgrf
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>what's a "max distance" supposed to achieve? that'll cause "only one cluster per map" issues
15:44<andythenorth>point
15:44<andythenorth>any clue what should handle number of clusters?
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>map size/difficulty settings
15:45<andythenorth>so do same as FIRS then
15:45<andythenorth>first generate n industries (n = number of clusters)
15:46<andythenorth>then generate remaining industries using max distance to similar type
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15:57<supermop>hi
15:57<@Alberth>hi
16:01<supermop>how's it going?
16:04<@Alberth>tt-forums are very boring
16:06<andythenorth>troll them
16:08<supermop>haha
16:08<supermop>i had my work computer stolen yesterday
16:08<andythenorth>troll the 'u mst w8nt moar pl8yz' thread
16:08<andythenorth>forums are exciting for me
16:08<andythenorth>DanMacK has been sending my epic pixels by pm
16:09<andythenorth>my / me /s
16:09<supermop>with a good little 128x128 game going on it
16:09<andythenorth>forums are also exciting because they eat my login cookie every 20 mins or so
16:09<andythenorth>which causes rage
16:09<V>:D
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16:42<andythenorth>it all went quiet :P
16:44<frosch123>night
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16:45<supermop>andy - my chips station glitch bug was fixed!
16:45<andythenorth>?
16:46<andythenorth>I still have one :P
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16:46<supermop>the computer with the save on it was stolen
16:46<supermop>so i am no longer experiencing the glitch
16:47<andythenorth>I could solve the glitch by rm-ing the grf?
16:48<supermop>rm?
16:56<andythenorth>http://unixhelp.ed.ac.uk/CGI/man-cgi?rm
16:59<@Alberth>too complicated, you need the actual name. Better find it instead: find / -iname "*.grf" -exec rm "{}" ";"
16:59<@Alberth>it may have unfortunate side effects for other grf and grf-like files :p
17:00*Alberth -> bed
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17:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: this may be something for HEQS http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7206/seite1021280x1024.jpg :)
17:04<andythenorth>what does it transport?
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>a ship... or something :)
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17:23<Wolf01>night
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17:24<Nat_aS>andythenorth: when will BANDIT be done?
17:24<Nat_aS>and will you make a buss set?
17:24<Nat_aS>(I really hate the default RVs, and think the other RV sets are too excessive)
17:28<andythenorth>BANDIT is on hold
17:30<andythenorth>it's unlikely I'll pick it up any time soon
17:30<andythenorth>I got bored of trying to make trucks work
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17:35<andythenorth>bye
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17:40<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/w4H4u.png
17:41<NGC3982>I can't find anything in the online content.
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17:50<V453000>interesting http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5370
17:51<V453000>s/interesting/wtf
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18:10<Eddi|zuHause>afair there are two exceptions for the 90° turn rule, 1) a not-front vehicle will follow 90° turns, 2) a track reservation is always followed
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---Logclosed Thu Nov 22 00:00:38 2012