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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-11-23

---Logopened Fri Nov 23 00:00:38 2012
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04:46<Yexo>good morning
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06:00<NGC3982>I had a dream this night
06:00<NGC3982>About coding the aircraft to make real turns
06:00<NGC3982>And tilting while turning.
06:01<NGC3982>That'd be neat.
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06:04<Noldo>you'd need quite many new sprites
06:09<V453000>see CETS ...
06:10<V453000>idea is nice but drawing X times more is unthinkable of ... at least to me
06:21<NGC3982>Yes, of course
06:22<NGC3982>And it brakes the fantastic symetry of OpenTTD
06:22<NGC3982>But it was - at least - a nice dream..
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06:26<V453000>well the trains do have some de-railing going on with that feature, but the result still is nice, just way too demanding
06:26<V453000>might be considerable with rendered sprites, but I havent seen nice rendered sprites yet
06:27<V453000>well av8 is rendered, but I bet it went through a ton of pixeling afterwards
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06:34<@Alberth>but they will still fly through each other :p
06:36<NGC3982>I don't really understand how that works
06:38<V453000>they are in different heights. :) yet of the same size
06:38<NGC3982>Sometimes, i get the feeling that you guys would be better off simply designing a new game from scratch.
06:39<@Alberth>throwing away 59 man years of work? :)
06:39<V453000>I dont think OpenTTD would be a better game if aircraft didnt go through each other tbh
06:39<@Alberth>I have the same problem with 'better' graphics, tbh
06:40<V453000>if you mean zbase, they are a lot worse, but more "technically advanced"
06:41<Arafangion>The simpler stuff makes me feel like I have more control.
06:41<@Alberth>32bpp, zbase, more zoom, personally, I don't see the point of it
06:41<Arafangion>Ie, it's more amendable to manipulation.
06:41<V453000>I agree Alberth
06:41<NGC3982>What's zbase?
06:41<V453000>most people cant even draw contrast properly; 32bpp or more pixels will only make that harder for them
06:42<@Alberth>NGC3982: where have you been hiding? :)
06:42<NGC3982>I don't even know how 32bpp works.
06:42<V453000>rock under been him
06:42<NGC3982>Alberth: Hey, i like OpenTTD as it is.
06:42<@Alberth> <-- NGC3982
06:42<V453000>good for you :P you havent missed that much
06:43<NGC3982>Well, the recent changes (at least recent to mee) have been fantastic
06:43<NGC3982>Following vehicles, extra zoom, NewGRFs.
06:43<NGC3982>Alberth: That post tells me it's zbase. Not what it is.
06:44<NGC3982>It's a ..32bpp set?
06:44<V453000>I can see some potential in 32bpp, BUT with one massive dangerous point. The 8bpp palette has colours which fit together. If you suddenly can do any colour from 32bpp spectrum, it could very easily occur that the game becomes colourful like a parrot when you mix newGRFs which use different colours. The 8bpp palette takes care of that
06:44<@Alberth> it's a 32bpp base set, like opengfx
06:44<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
06:44<V453000>also drawing with 8bpp is just so much more convenient
06:45<NGC3982>I don't really understand "better graphics" in that sence.
06:45<NGC3982>The OpenTTD 8bpp is kind of the thing that makes it special.
06:45<@Alberth>perhaps we are too old :)
06:45<NGC3982>At least in my book.
06:45<V453000>it isnt better it is just newer
06:45<NGC3982>Well sure, that it exists is fantastic
06:45<NGC3982>But i wouldn't really enjoy the game if it was permanently replaced, for instance.
06:46<@Alberth>nope, I have switched back to opengfx
06:46<V453000>Alberth: this isnt about getting old really. I didnt want to judge before Z. finally says this is the final version and this looks awesome to him, but .... currently it is really poor. If you do not use zoom in, most of the things feel blurred out and without any form of detail
06:46<NGC3982>Would have*?
06:47<NGC3982>When you say Z, i only think about an old Command & Conquer look-alike..
06:47<V453000>no that would be the author of zbase, Zephyris :)
06:47<V453000>either way, original ttd graphics ftw :P
06:48<NGC3982>Zpeaking of graphicz ;-)
06:48<@Alberth>the younger generation grows up with 3D GL renderers, so OpenTTD just looks weird, and old
06:49<V453000>well yeah that is understandable
06:49<NGC3982>Well then, i guess they can join #railroadtycoon2013
06:50<@Alberth>what is discussed there?
06:50<@Alberth>people wanting a new game?
06:51<@Alberth>#p1sim seems a better place then ;)
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07:01<Markk>A bit more bloody advanced than n+7=10, eh?
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07:03<Eddi|zuHause>only marginally :)
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07:22*NGC3982 puts stuff in Markk
07:23<NGC3982>Alberth: I was refering to that OpenTTD does not really need improved graphics (that said, there is nothing wrong with new graphics), and that other games already hold the flag high on following modern graphics.
07:26<__ln__>OpenTTD would need graphics at a higher resolution.
07:29<NGC3982>You think so?
07:29<NGC3982>I don't know what it's called, but i do enjoy that OpenTTD's "resolution" fixes itself with screen resolution increasing with modern monitors.
07:30<NGC3982>That is: Higher screen resolution = bigger view
07:30<NGC3982>Instead of higher resolution in the 'same view'.
07:31*NGC3982 really needs to get his terminology straight.
07:33<@Alberth>yeah, somewhat. Did you ever try to play the entire game one zoom level further outward?
07:33<@Alberth>If not, why not? :)
07:37<Elukka>with modern monitor resolutions, it's often more comfortable to play at 2x or even 4x zoom, i think
07:38<Elukka>(and that in my mind is the best semi-recent addition to openttd)
07:38<Elukka>so ideally i think the graphics would have two to four times the resolution they do have :)
07:38<Elukka>i get why they don't though, and it's not really important
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08:43<NGC3982>Alberth: Zoom makes it blurry and unreadable.
08:43<NGC3982>Higher resolution doesn't.
08:43<NGC3982>It seems like the outward zoom creates the same artifacts as when zooming in MSpaint
08:44<@Alberth>hmm, maybe 'outward' is ambigious here
08:44<NGC3982>As an example, higher resolution does not create this havvoc of a picture:
08:44<@Alberth>I meant such that you have a more bird-eye view
08:45<NGC3982>Alberth: I thought you made a comparison between using a higher resolution or simply zooming out.
08:45<NGC3982>Im sorry if i did not understood your point. :>
08:45<@Alberth>Your claim was that you wanted a bigger view instead of higher resolution
08:46<@Alberth>(and same view)
08:46<NGC3982>Yes, the same size, but bigger.
08:46<NGC3982>As with OpenTTD right now
08:46<@Alberth>but eventually, the graphics then become so small you cannot see them properly any more
08:46<@Alberth>since the monitor resolution increases, but your eyes don't get better
08:47<NGC3982>But wait, isn't that the point of not increasing in game resolution?
08:47<NGC3982>Since, using OpenTTD on a bigger resolution does not seem to make things smaller, but instead making my field of view bigger.
08:48<NGC3982>Or is that a faulty observation.
08:48<@Alberth>yes it does, since OpenTTD uses the same graphics no matter what size monitor you have
08:48<Flygon>Again, you can zoom in with OpenTTD with no quality loss
08:48<NGC3982>So, higher resolution shouldn't really affect it?
08:48<Flygon>I get the feeling the game's gonna need 16x zoom soon enough :p
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08:49<@Alberth>Flygon: haha, and where does it get the new pixel information from then?
08:49*Flygon lugs out his 19in CRT, does 2048*1636 OpenTTD... "C'mooooooon TGBlur!"
08:50<Flygon>Alberth: Framebuffer?
08:50<@Alberth>Flygon: that's not "with no quality loss"
08:50<Flygon>I see no quality loss with using nearest neighbour zooming
08:51<@Alberth>Flygon: then you are not looking properly, if you don't add new information, displaying the same information enlarged will reduce quality
08:52<@Alberth>NGC3982: A higher monitor resolution means that the same amount of pixels (ie the same graphics) will get displayed at a smaller physicial area of the screen
08:52<NGC3982>Alberth: I see.
08:53<@Alberth>so if the monitor resolution doubles, you get 1/4 of the original size (since it doubles both in x and in Y direction
08:53<NGC3982>That does not fit with my idea that the field of view increases with resolution.
08:53<@Alberth>the monitor area is still equally big, or even bigger
08:54<@Alberth>so you can display more graphics at the same area, -> display more tiles -> 'bigger view'
08:54<@Alberth>but at the cost of a single tile using less space at the monitor
08:56<@Alberth>so to see what exactly is happening at a specific tile becomes harder, since your eyes have not increased in resolution :)
08:56<Kylie>so ergo less quality Alberth
08:57<@Alberth>Kylie: technically not, but from a human-computer interaction point of view, I guess it is
09:03<Flygon>I see absolutely no loss of quality
09:03<Flygon>You can zoom in, and percieve the game just as you would @ a lower resolution
09:03<Flygon>And since the game's pixel art scales well with nearest neighbour (unlike, say, 3D art), there's no real quality loss
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09:17<@Alberth>hi Sir B
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09:29<@Belugas>Sir A! sir C1138!
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10:20<sponge>I'm having problems with adding a WWT_MATRIX widget. There is something about the resize of the window and its allocated area that segfaults.
10:20<sponge>Can someone explain UpdateWidgetSize parameters?
10:20<sponge>size, fill and resize pointers in particular.
10:21<@Alberth>euhm, I should be able to :)
10:21<@Alberth>size is the really absolutely minimal size that you need to display the contents properly
10:22<@Alberth>obviously, every widget has a different size, so combining them leaves holes in the window area
10:22<@Alberth>this is where fill comes in, it specifies in which steps the widget area may be enlarged to make the entire window area filled with widgets
10:23<@Alberth>this gives you the minimal window size
10:23<@Alberth>some windows have a resize button
10:23<sponge>mine does
10:24<@Alberth>resize is the step size for the widget when enlarging the window
10:24<sponge>what is "step size" in this context?
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10:24<@Alberth>number of extra pixels
10:25<sponge>So, for my matrix, what should I put where?
10:25<sponge>I'm used to toolkits like GTK where you get the new size request.
10:25<sponge>so, I put size->width and height to 256, just for fun.
10:25<sponge>what about fill and resize?
10:26<@Alberth>you don't get requests here, the window changes size or position, and you get redraw requests for the widgets
10:26<sponge>So what's the UpdateWidgetSize for?
10:27<@Alberth>The GUI system copies information from the widget parts description
10:27<sponge>throw me a bone here, I get a segfault when I try to display the window with the WWT_MATRIX widget in it.
10:27<sponge>maybe I should leave the size update alone?
10:27<@Alberth>throw me a stack trace of the dump please
10:28<@Alberth>matrices are a bit special in that every box needs to be exactly equal in size, or it looks horrible
10:28<sponge>or rather when I resize.
10:29<sponge>I need a list. This list contains three columns
10:29<sponge>the two first columns are dropdowns
10:29<sponge>the final is a number
10:29<@Alberth>Did you do a SetDataTip(0x401, ... ) ?
10:30<@Alberth>this means 4 rows and 1 column
10:30<@Alberth>bridge_gui.cpp is a simple example
10:30<sponge>Is that what it was?
10:30<@Alberth>quite likely
10:30<sponge>Man, I thought "oh, so these guys dont even use the symbols anymore, they just use string id straight up"
10:31<@Alberth>as I said, matrix is a bit special
10:31<@Alberth>well, we've stepped away from hard-coded widget sizes :p
10:32<@Alberth>resize will probably only work well if you enlarge it with one box each time
10:33<@Alberth>and fill needs to take the number of boxes into account, or you will not end with an exact multiple
10:33<sponge>How do you suggest I go about this then?
10:34<@Alberth>(or if you can set it to 0, and let the other widgets around fill the space)
10:34<sponge>If I try to resize horizontally it segfaults
10:34<sponge>thats better than before when it segfaulted in any direction.
10:35<sponge>it's official, I cannot make a columned list.
10:35<sponge>you had a file that may contain useful code hints?
10:36<@Alberth>you don't need matrix, probably
10:37<@Alberth>if you want more detailed help, I need more than "it segfaults"
10:38<@Alberth>since that can be done in an awful lot of ways
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10:38<sponge>gui code
10:38<@Alberth>now something with line numbers :)
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10:39<sponge>you dont get line numbers?
10:39<sponge>I have line numbers on that paste page.
10:40<@Alberth>not in the stack trace of the crash
10:40<sponge>how do I add -g ?
10:41<sponge>--enable-debug=3 good enough?
10:41<@Alberth>./configure --enable-debug=3 is what I run
10:41<@Alberth>but I forgot what it means :)
10:42<sponge>phew. C++ takes forever to compile. I'm used to C
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10:42<@Alberth>300,000 lines C also takes time :p
10:42<@Alberth>SetResize(1, 1) <-- with 4x4 matrix, that cannot be right
10:43<@Alberth>it also needs a minimal size I guess
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember there was quite a big spike in compile time by just switching the compiler from C to C++
10:43<sponge>I'v'e seen SetResize(1,0) in depot_gui
10:43<sponge>Eddi|zuHause: should be. on avarage, a simple main-function in 3 lines takes a lot longer in C++ than C.
10:43<@Alberth>for 1 column that
10:43<@Alberth>'d be right
10:44<sponge>Alberth: so, SetResize to... ?
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>sponge: that doesn't really say much, it just means the overhead for C++ is bigger than for C, but doesn't say anything about the individual language features
10:45<@Alberth>unless you want extra rows/columns, then you want initial row/column size
10:45<sponge>Eddi|zuHause: we were only talking compile speed.
10:45<@Alberth>sponge: you can express a lot less in 3 lines of C
10:45<sponge>Alberth: setting SetResize(1,0) makes it not segfault, setting SetResize(4, 4) makes it segfault on window show
10:46<sponge>Alberth: again, we're talking about the simplest main function
10:46<sponge>and only compile speed, not tasks accomplished
10:46<@Alberth>sponge: yeah, extremely non-relevant benchmark
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>sponge: yes, i was as well
10:47<sponge>Alberth: it was just a casual notice, not a language flame work initiation
10:48<sponge>Hm, I still didnt get the line numbers in the crash stacktrace
10:48<@Alberth>apparently an important measurement for you, or you'd have picked a different benchmark
10:49<sponge>I didn't "pick a benchmark"
10:49<sponge>I'm not benchmarking
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>"x is faster than y" is a benchmark
10:49<sponge>No, it can very well just be a casual statement.
10:49<sponge>I just noted it takes a while to build, that's all.
10:53<sponge>So, if I'm not using a matrix, how would I get a columned list?
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10:54<@Alberth>use a matrix with 1 column, and draw the 3 things in it
10:54<@Alberth>your code does not compile here, I am missing stuff
10:55<@Alberth>eg the bridge gui also does that
10:55<sponge>Yeah, I havent had the strength to upload this to any repos
10:55<@Alberth>or alternatively, use a plain canvas, eg a panel, and draw it all in there
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10:57<sponge>Seems I should be able to do it in the same manner as all the other lists.
10:57<@Alberth>that would be expected yeah :)
10:59<sponge>the signal is a floating point exception
10:59<sponge>i suspect there might be a n/0 somewhere
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11:00<@Alberth>run the program from the debugger?
11:01<@Alberth>I have to make some dinner
11:01<sponge>int column_width = (r.right - r.left + 1) / num_columns;
11:02<@Alberth>give it some initial size?
11:03<sponge>widget_data contains width and height
11:04<sponge>there we go
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11:10<sponge>what if it has zero rows?
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11:24<MNIM>when did Hyronymus get so... vague?
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11:48*Alberth adjusts the focus
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24760 trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt (2012-11-23 18:45:08 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>latvian - 1 changes by Parastais
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14:17<@Alberth>hi planetmaker, andythenorth
14:17<@planetmaker>hallo :-)
14:21<Kylie>so uh, uis thre a better way of stn waypoints apart from a station of the same type as the vehicle and setting that to go via ?
14:22<andythenorth>forums are dull today
14:22<@Alberth>send directly would be better, I think :)
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14:22<Kylie>Alberth: rephrase
14:23<@Alberth>Kylie: that's ambigiuous
14:23<@Alberth>do you rephrase, or should I ?
14:25<@Alberth>you asked for a better way than stn waypoints, I think sending directly (ie without detours or intermediate points) is better
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14:50<@Alberth>andy, you are aware of glitching industry sprites when enabling transparency in firs 3226?
14:51<@planetmaker>Alberth, is that with the fences issue, some sprites showing the question mark sprite?
14:52<frosch123>did you find the bug meanwhile?
14:52<frosch123>is it a firs or a nml issue?
14:53<@Alberth>some sort of blue-ish wave
14:53<frosch123>using ogfx?
14:53<frosch123>it has a blue questionmark
14:53<@Alberth>yes, the nightly
14:54<frosch123>Alberth: it's the questionmark sprite which is shown for invalid sprites
14:54<@Alberth>yeah I realize that now
14:57<_habnabit>is there a hotkey for 'close all unpinned windows'
14:58<frosch123>ctrl+del to also close pinned ones
14:58<_habnabit>huh, wow
14:58<frosch123>or was it shift+del?
14:58<andythenorth>frosch123: the bug I can reproduce is a FIRS issue
14:58<andythenorth>or at least, it's not present in older FIRS revs
14:58<andythenorth>I have no idea what I changed though, this is old code that should just work :p
14:59<frosch123>well, i failed in finding the spritelayouts in firs src :p
14:59<frosch123>too much python magic going on
15:00<andythenorth>these are simple old spritelayouts
15:00<andythenorth>no magic
15:02<andythenorth>frosch123: the broken layout is SPRITELAYOUT_FENCES_NORMAL_SNOW
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15:05<frosch123>ah, the THIS_ID are wrong
15:06<frosch123>SPRITELAYOUT_FENCES_NORMAL_SNOW looks like it only works for groundsprites which are default sprites
15:06<frosch123>not for spritesets
15:09<frosch123>the macro even does a LOAD_TMP
15:09<frosch123>so, i guess it does not work for default ground sprites either?
15:09<andythenorth>I don't know :)
15:10<frosch123>well, i agree, it's a firs bug :p
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15:10<frosch123>now i know why nml created such weird looking code :)
15:11<@planetmaker>yes... and likely I wrote that :-P
15:12<frosch123>maybe it's just enough to remove the LOAD_TEMP
15:18<andythenorth>those templates are double-deprecated :P
15:18<andythenorth>they were supposed to be replaced by the templates I'm replacing :P
15:18<@planetmaker>I guess that's why I wanted them seen replaced: buggy ;-)
15:18<@planetmaker>and wrote the new old ones ;-)
15:20<frosch123>700 MB to go
15:20<frosch123>updating my wheezy vm, so i can compile firs again
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15:23<@planetmaker>what's your HV?
15:25<@planetmaker>hyper visor :-)
15:25<@planetmaker>or the parent OS
15:25<@planetmaker>ah :-)
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15:27<@peter1138>As is the only way...
15:28<@planetmaker>I can well imagine to have other *nix there ;-)
15:28<@peter1138>My parent OS is... Windows 7...
15:29<frosch123>my mother has no computer
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16:24<krinn>hi guys,
16:26<krinn>clicking on ? then on a tile i get a town name that own that tile
16:27<frosch123>not when you are far away from any town
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16:28<krinn>the problem is i really don't know how to get that in noai
16:28<krinn>we have 3 functions that appears the same but gave 3 different results
16:28*andythenorth -> bed
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16:29<krinn>AITown.GetTownAuthority AITown.GetClosestTown and AITile.IsWithinTownInfluence
16:29<frosch123>the information in the landinfo tool matches ScriptTile::GetTownAuthority
16:30<krinn>so we have case where a tile influence a town and isn't own by the town ?
16:31<frosch123>IsWithinTownInfluence and GetTownAuthority return different things, check the documentation
16:31<krinn>i am, but honestly it's not clear
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16:32<frosch123>IsWithinTownInfluence: servicing of stations in this area affects town rating
16:32<krinn>to make it easy: what function should i use to get tiles where i could put my station, and that station rating influence the town
16:32*LordAro waves to all
16:32<frosch123>GetTownAuthority: rating in town affects construction actions
16:32-!-bassals [] has joined #openttd
16:33<frosch123>and is checked for construction actions
16:33<frosch123>IsWithinTownInfluence depends on the size of the town
16:34<frosch123>GetTownAuthority depends on difficulty settings
16:34<krinn>you mean a station within towninfluence increase the town rating, even built outside townauthority ?
16:34<@planetmaker>hi LordAro
16:34<@planetmaker>and hi bassals
16:34<krinn>hi LordAro
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16:36<frosch123>hmm, GetTownAuthority might even not depend on any difficulty
16:36<frosch123>it seems to be a config-file only setting
16:36<@planetmaker>bassals, you asked me something about translations recently... what exactly was it?
16:36<krinn>well, something isn't working right, i have a station that doesn't answer to withintowninfluence while the info say it should
16:37<frosch123>anyway, GetTownAuthority is always a single town
16:37<frosch123>IsWithinTownInfluence can be many towns
16:37<krinn>i use IsWithinTownInfluence for my checks
16:37<frosch123>[22:29] <frosch123> the information in the landinfo tool matches ScriptTile::GetTownAuthority
16:38<krinn>but as describe: you get get a tile within influence but not within townauthority, but the inverse is not possible
16:39<krinn>a tile within townauthority could only be within towninfluence, while a tile within towninfluence may not be within townautority
16:39<frosch123>they are both separate things
16:39<frosch123>nothing implies the other
16:39<krinn>wonder why i'm lost now ?
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>town authority has a fixed radius, town influence is dependent on population
16:40<krinn>but townauthority raduis could only be <= towninfluence raduis no ?
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>(my personal imagination, did not check any code)
16:41<bassals>yes planetmaker, it's simply that you told me that when you guys need to discuss something about the german translation
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>really small towns may have really low influence radius, smaller than authority
16:41<bassals>you use a forum I think I remember
16:41<frosch123>first of all, authority is a manhattan thingie
16:41<frosch123>influence is euclidian
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>all norms are equivalent :)
16:42<frosch123>authority is the same radius for all towns
16:42<frosch123>influence is 0 for 0 population
16:42<frosch123>and huge for huge populations
16:42<krinn>my town test have 599 pop
16:43<krinn>can put a screenshot if you wish
16:43<bassals>Eddi|zuHause: not from the metric point of view
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: ah, feature request: when building an airport, pick the town with the largest influence to check against the noise rating
16:43<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: aren't all towns checked?
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>bassals: norms are "eqivalent" when there exist constants m and M which suffice the equation m*||x||_1 <= ||x||_2 <= M*||x||_1 for all x
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16:44<@planetmaker>bassals, yes,
16:44<krinn>frosch123, there's something odd there, really
16:44<@planetmaker>there's a thread about the German translation
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: not sure, i'd expect only the closest town is checked
16:44<@planetmaker>in general openttd
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: at least i could not build an airport in a place i really would have liked one :)
16:45<@planetmaker>you could also call it ;-)
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16:45<bassals>Eddi|zuHause: this means topologically equivalent
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>bassals: yes :)
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>it's an inequation anyway...
16:46<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: ah, yeah, it only affects one town
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>bassals: in finite-dimensional space, all norms are equivalent
16:46<frosch123>shortest manhattan distance of any airport tile (i.e. not necessarily north tile) to town sign
16:47<bassals>but this only means that the open sets are the same
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>(which especially means if a number-series converges in one norm, it converges in all norms, to the same point)
16:47<frosch123>krinn: take tha magic bulldozer, kill all houses, and check whether iswithininfluence is really small
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think when i played last, it was only the north tile
16:47<bassals>okay planetmaker but I thought that only English was allowed in tt-forums
16:48<@planetmaker>bassals, yes :-) You can, of course, discuss in English other languages :-)
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>bassals: the conversation is in english, but the translation strings are of course in german :)
16:48<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that must have been long ago, iirc it was already like that in 0.6 or 0.7
16:48<bassals>excuse me but that is horrible
16:49<@planetmaker>discussing a translation in English? Stupid? Maybe. Horrible? Certainly not
16:49<frosch123>bassals: check out how many non-native speakers particpate in that topic and the topics of other languages :p
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>bassals: it was more practical than a thread in the german forum, which has fewer regular users, and many of which aren't fluent enough in english to be at help for translations
16:50<krinn>found a free image hosting, will show that
16:50<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: any they are also not good at german orthography
16:51<@planetmaker>if you only need to quickly show sth
16:51<@planetmaker>and don't require permanent storage
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i tried to be polite in what i wrote :)
16:51<@planetmaker>krinn, that's as fast as a snail :-)
16:52<krinn>wow lol yes just saw, what a slow thing
16:52<krinn>will try the imagebin
16:52<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the
16:52<frosch123>that was the enter key
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>happens to me often :)
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>especially while trying to type ' :)
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>occasionally also trying to hit backspace
16:53<frosch123>anyway, distribution of users between forums is usually quite imballanced
16:54<krinn>the tile info is the lowest right part of the airport
16:54<krinn>and the checks inside the ai console is done with AITown.IsWithinTownInfluence
16:55<krinn>don't you think that tile should be inside at least (or any other tiles as i check all tiles from the station)
16:56<krinn>it works for many stations, so i'm sure the function itself is ok, but some stations, like that airport fail
16:56<frosch123>let's see, i count 21 hourses
16:57<frosch123>that gives a town mass of 5
16:57<krinn>could count, town report 5 houses
16:57<krinn>could count, town report 21 houses sorry
16:57<frosch123>that gives a squared euclcidian distance for towninfluence of 64
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>so 8 tiles
16:57<frosch123>so, euclidian radius of 8 tiles
16:58<@Alberth>planetmaker: and this glitch?
16:58<frosch123>that might catch 3 tiles of the airport
16:58<frosch123>or maybe 6
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16:59<krinn>as you see in the console it report that station as not inside the town influence
17:00<frosch123>yes, for the rating influence the station sign matters
17:00<frosch123>and it is clearly out of range
17:00<frosch123>huge stations like airports are a bit imbalanced there :p
17:00<frosch123>build the airport on the south side of the town, and it is within influence
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17:01<krinn>except south is full of water
17:01<frosch123>scales in the game are that broken :p
17:01<@Alberth>good night
17:02<krinn>and isn't it a bit hard that airport isn't in the area of influence, lol cannot be closer to town house/road
17:02<frosch123>well, if the airport is bigger than the town :p
17:03<frosch123>maybe the airport influences the town, and not the other way around :p
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17:03<krinn>i get passenger, and airport is rate 80% for mail/pass
17:03<frosch123>anyway, the api functions are correct
17:03<frosch123>just the game mechanics are weird :p
17:04<krinn>so weird as the airport was built depending on town noise acceptance
17:05<krinn>anway i'm facing i could built the airport to do A->B but unable to do A->C as the airport then is report ouside A influence :(
17:06<frosch123>why do you bother so much about influence btw?
17:06<krinn>and of course, then it fail because building another airport in A is not possible with noise level
17:06<frosch123>isn't that completely unimportant?
17:06<krinn>it is if you want reuse it to build a A->C route
17:06<frosch123>what does influence have to do with routes?
17:06<bassals>planetmaker: actually there is just 1 person that I need to contact
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>so... why does dosbox screw up my screen resoltion?
17:06<bassals>there is just one translator
17:07<frosch123>it's just about whether the town likes you
17:07<krinn>for me route is just routing passenger from A to B
17:07<bassals>i won't create a thread just for that
17:07<krinn>you are an AI frosch123 for an AI you must know if a station near a town met your critera to use it, and having that station influencing the town is the critera
17:07<bassals>is there a way to contact to another user through his (unified?) translator account?
17:08<krinn>i could built another airport, if the town allow me, now the town rating for my AI is at exceptional, but still noise level disallow me to built another airport
17:09<frosch123>krinn: well, maybe if the town influence is so small it should not have an airport in the first place?
17:10<krinn>the bigest town have 2073 people, i won't say that town is a kick ass one, but at that year, 599 isn't that bad
17:12<krinn>so, there's no solve?
17:12<krinn>i could built one, but i won't then find it as a valid airport to reuse with current API functions ?
17:13<frosch123>you could try the influcence of all airport corners
17:13<krinn>i try all tiles of the airport
17:13<frosch123>technically you want to check the catchment area of the station
17:14<krinn>impossible, i may get answer my catchment got passengers from another town next to it, this won't answer THAT town then
17:15<@planetmaker>bassals, not all people who discussed in the German translation thread are registered translators
17:15<krinn>shouldn't influence area be at least = authority area ?
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: why?
17:16<krinn>just because it would be logic no ?
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>which part of the game is actually logical :)
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17:16<Eddi|zuHause>no, seriously, why?
17:17<krinn>it doesn't look logic to have a tile authority to a town (so building on it influence rating in town) that doesn't influence station rating over that same town
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>the what what?
17:17<bassals>it would not be good if some registered translators did not read the discussions...
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17:18<krinn>because if i destroy a tree in that tile the town will hate me, and building a station there, the town don't care about the station then
17:18<@planetmaker>yes... which language?
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: ah i see...
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: but why would an airport in the far outskirts of a small town increase the town rating?
17:19<krinn>i also not get that, that airport is influencing the town
17:20<krinn>how can my AI get exceptional rating with that town without this airport, no other station are there
17:20<@planetmaker>which is the language you translate to, bassals ?
17:20<bassals>I am Catalan ;-)
17:21<krinn>and Eddi|zuHause please, "in the far outskirts", seriously did you see where the airport is :)
17:22<@planetmaker>I see 5 registered translators there...
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: well, frosch123 already said the game mechanics are weird there...
17:22<bassals>only two contributed the past 4 weeks
17:23<@planetmaker>ok, you and whom?
17:23<bassals>you know like in
17:23<@planetmaker>I'll send him an e-mail to contact you. I think it'd not be appropriate to give out e-mail addresses due to privacy concerns
17:23<krinn>maybe, but that "glitch": influence of station area < town authority area don't hurt you ?
17:23<bassals>thank you
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: i do not see a problem with that
17:24<krinn>it's like having a guess in your house you don't see, only if he start to break your sofa
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>just that only the station sign is considered, not all edges of the station
17:25<krinn>so the town see you are destroying the tile to build the station, and hate you for that, but then don't see the station built
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: i still don't see a problem with that
17:25<krinn>well, i could provide the savegame, more than the area of the airport are own tiles
17:26<krinn>the title tile of airport also report to be own by town
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>so, you rent a room that you don't use to someone, of course you don't care what he does, as long as he does not break things
17:27<krinn>it's more you rent the room and he came and break things, you fucking shout at him and he stop and stop where he is, and you ignore him while he keep offering you money
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>if you see him on the street and he greets regularly, then you notice him and get to like him, but if he's so far outside that you don't see him, then you won't take notice of him
17:29<krinn>he isn't that far, as soon as he break something you notice him :)
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17:34<krinn>well, i made my point, if you don't see where there's a problem, must comes from me so
17:36<krinn>i will be able to check against this rare case adding a authority checks if influence fail, but that looks odd, but just for me it seems
17:36<frosch123>i still don't get why you are using those functions in the first place
17:37<frosch123>the concept of "airport belongs to town" is just weird to me
17:37<krinn>because you cannot built an airport like that
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17:38<krinn>an airport belongs to a town : because when trying it, you must get sure to whom it will belong as you must know per example town rating and town noise level
17:39<krinn>you are an AI, you cannot see others airports
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18:21<krinn>good night all
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20:41<ChileStuff>Anyone alive?
20:43<ChileStuff>oh well
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20:45<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: that guy has a graphics problem, was asking about it in the other channel
20:45<supermop>sounds like a problem with his card
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20:47<ChileStuff>Guess I left too soon eddi
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---Logclosed Sat Nov 24 00:00:40 2012