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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-11-24

---Logopened Sat Nov 24 00:00:40 2012
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03:08<@Terkhen>good morning
03:08<Sturmi>u2
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03:59<@planetmaker>moin
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06:00-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
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06:02<Wolf01>hello
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06:08<@Alberth>moin Wolf01
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06:27<@planetmaker>hello Alberth :-)
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06:45<MNIM>Bah.
06:45<MNIM>my depots are bottlenecking.
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06:55<Flygon>I recommend multiple depots and lines
06:55<Flygon>A bit like how stables/depots work irl
06:56<Flygon>Basically, long multiple tracks
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07:56<MNIM>I had two depots and waiting lines in and out for each in each direction, and a quad mainline passing by them
07:56<MNIM>now there's three depots with waiting lines.
07:56<MNIM>so now in both directions that piece of track is 10 wide.
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08:47<Flygon>MNIM, can you show me what you mean?
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09:17<Wolf01>bbl
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10:27<MNIM>Flygon: wait a sec, not sure if I still have a save from before
10:28<MNIM>nope, sorry
10:30<MNIM>(WARNING unresized screen) http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/1/2248324/OTTD/Sendtown%20Transport%2C%204th%20Mar%201992.png
10:30<MNIM>current situation.
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10:40<Sturmi>you could build one depot per waiting bay
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10:47-!-ChileStuff [42dc55bb@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
10:47<ChileStuff>Greetings
10:48<ChileStuff>Any functionally cognitive denizens available?
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10:49<frosch123>nope, only bots
10:50<ChileStuff>heh
10:50<ChileStuff>I have an odd video bug I could use help with
10:51<frosch123>win8?
10:51<ChileStuff>colors go all pastel and rainbow on me and looks somewhat pixelated ... no w7
10:51<frosch123>fullscreen?
10:51<ChileStuff>yup
10:52<frosch123>disable desktop slideshow (or whatever it is called)
10:52<ChileStuff>It also does it very briefly when loading, just a flash
10:52<frosch123>or go to openttd.cfg and set fullscreen_bpp to 32 or something like that
10:52<ChileStuff>Kewl
10:52<ChileStuff>Thanx
10:52<Rubidium>i.e. what is documented in known-bugs.txt
10:53<frosch123>told him we are only bots :p
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10:55<ChileStuff>lol
10:56*ChileStuff goes back to building empires
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11:07<supermop>hi
11:07<@Alberth>hi
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11:08<supermop>how's it going?
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12:11*peter1138 ponders ... playing ...
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24761 /trunk/src/lang (german.txt lithuanian.txt) (2012-11-24 18:45:16 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>german - 2 changes by planetmaker
13:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 48 changes by Stabilitronas
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14:17<andythenorth>lo
14:17<@peter1138>no
14:18<andythenorth>k
14:19<andythenorth>I'll try again later, maybe it will be then
14:21<@Alberth>andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1952/
14:22<andythenorth>Alberth: \o/
14:23<@Alberth>hmm, bad diff; basically s/ {}/{}/ and 't' of supplies -> crates
14:25<andythenorth>want to commit?
14:25<andythenorth>might as well ;)
14:30<@Alberth>done :)
14:35*andythenorth pulls
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14:55<andythenorth>any forum stuff?
14:56<@Alberth>nah, nothing there
14:56<andythenorth>lame :P
14:57<@Alberth>yeah, I am wondering what is happening; perhaps everybody is buying xmas stuff?
14:58<andythenorth>some kind of online sales or something this weekend
15:00<andythenorth>Alberth: seen the regions stuff from fr*sch123
15:00<andythenorth>?
15:00<@Alberth>I have, looks good
15:02<@Alberth>so the whole world is online shopping?
15:05<andythenorth>not me :P
15:05<andythenorth>I have everything I need and everything I want :P
15:05<andythenorth>or at least that I can buy easily :P
15:06<andythenorth>oh, perhaps they're buying for other people :o
15:06<andythenorth>how odd :P
15:07<@Alberth>the only thing I bought today was a bit of electricity, some heat, and some Internet bandwidth :)
15:08<@Alberth>I tried playing FIRS today, but I got annoyed at the problems of finding cargo connections
15:09<@Alberth>someone should extend the industry chain window with a cargo to select from
15:20<frosch123>yeah, you always have to find a industry first, which procudes stuff :p
15:23<@Alberth>would "FS#3799 - Would be nice to have a way to get cargo acceptance/production for a station" be useful to add to the TODO list?
15:24<frosch123>looks like half of it was done
15:25<frosch123>Yexo wanted to have a thought about the other one :p
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15:26<frosch123>ah, we do not have any flag currently at stations whether cargo is supplied
15:26<frosch123>oh, i guess what the issue is...
15:26<frosch123>what should it actually return?
15:27<frosch123>the cargo that is currently produced? or the cargo that could be produced if the industries would be serviced with input?
15:27<@Alberth>in my view, the set of cargoes also displayed by the station picker window
15:27<frosch123>does not sound useful at all to me
15:27<frosch123>you want to know whether a specific industry is in the catchment area
15:28<frosch123>so ais would rather have a function with industry id and then figure out a station location
15:28<@Alberth>you don't want to know whether you can get/deliver cargo X ?
15:28<frosch123>why would an ai want to know whether some random industry (which produces nothing) is in range?
15:29<frosch123>delivery is fine, but we already have such a function
15:29<frosch123>and it returns whether cargo _is_ currently accepted (i.e. considering stockpiles denying it)
15:29<andythenorth>Alberth: the industry chain window has that feature :P
15:29<frosch123>but for production this makes no sense
15:29<frosch123>also players it makes no sense
15:30<frosch123>players want to see which industries they cover, the "supplies" display is only a rough approximation of that
15:30-!-glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:c10f:2dcf:385d:7215] has joined #openttd
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15:30<frosch123>we should rather highlight the industry tiles when dragging the station area over them
15:30<frosch123>^^ we could put that on the todo list :p
15:32<@Alberth>#3799 is for getting that kind of information after the station has been built
15:32<frosch123>then again you want a list of industries, not a list of cargos
15:32<MNIM>M'fucker.
15:32<frosch123>@kick mnim
15:32-!-MNIM was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [frosch123]
15:32-!-MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd
15:33<frosch123>anyone want to rant about autojoin? :p
15:33<MNIM>Oops. language. sorry
15:33<@Alberth>yeah, MNIM please turn off auto-join :)
15:33<MNIM>I got an epic deadlock that reaches across half of of my 1024*1024 map.
15:33<frosch123>Alberth: i really see no use in a list of cargos which might be produces under unknown circumstances
15:33<@Alberth>ok
15:33<frosch123>even for humans there should be a better way
15:36<@Alberth>MNIM: nice! /me likes solving deadlocks
15:41<MNIM>Alberth: have fun! XD
15:41<MNIM>http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/1/2248324/OTTD/Alpine%202B.sav
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15:45<MNIM>D'oh. I see the cause.
15:45<frosch123>Alberth: i added a comment to the fs task, but yexo and zuu might have a better idea :)
15:45<@Alberth>just pull one train into the depot, and it moves again :)
15:45<frosch123>awh, i cannot even highlight zuu :(
15:46<MNIM>and it's some very, very retarded signal placement
15:47-!-sla_ro|vista [slaco@89.137.75.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:52<@Alberth>just remove the signal :)
15:54<MNIM>That's what I did, and I added some rail
15:56<@Alberth>we need multi-tile depots :p
15:57<andythenorth>'need' is a strong word :P
15:57<andythenorth>ctrl-click to join?
15:57<supermop>i already did that
15:57<supermop>(fakely)
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>multi-tile depots and switchyards would make a lot of sense if you at the same time limit the number and length of trains that fit in
15:58<andythenorth>even without that
15:58-!-Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4d08665c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
15:58*MNIM agrees with Alberth
15:58<supermop>also if you let consists change
15:58<andythenorth>it makes routing easier
15:58<MNIM>multitile depots!
15:58<MNIM>do so much want.
15:59<andythenorth>fewer deadlocks when using 'service in depot orders'
15:59<andythenorth>and if breakdowns are on, 'service in depot' orders are essential
15:59<andythenorth>as PBS can't route vehicles to depots
15:59<andythenorth>[reliably]
15:59<supermop>just build a station and rail yard outside the depot
16:00<@Alberth>I don't use 'service in depot' orders, I let them find one at their own time instead
16:00<MNIM>It would be nice to retain the buffer function that depots currently have, though
16:00<andythenorth>Alberth: you don't notice that they frequently fail to find a depot?
16:00<andythenorth>especially RVs, which seem to be blind to depots
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>i don't usually play with servicin
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>g
16:01<andythenorth>I turn it off because it's broken
16:01<MNIM>Alberth: I find it brings problems when depots are off the main line, or when you want trains to only go to the depot when they're empty
16:01<andythenorth>hmm
16:01<@Alberth>MNIM: don't do that, or don't want that :p
16:01<andythenorth>who wrote all this complicated python stuff without also writing docs? :P
16:01<andythenorth>in FIRS
16:02<@Alberth>MNIM: Perhaps it has less impact with my netowrks, as I also play with breakdowns on, so my network has a lot of empty space
16:02<@Alberth>andythenorth: someone did, I think
16:02<andythenorth>can't be me
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16:03<andythenorth>I am not responsible for anything I did more than 7 days ago, I am not that person :P
16:03<MNIM>how so empty space with breakdowns on?
16:04<@Alberth>you need room for other trains to not block all the time
16:04<@Alberth>so you make extra tracks to split the traffic
16:04<frosch123>MNIM: you know there is a go to nearest depot order?
16:05<frosch123>you can give a train a option for multiple depots, by putting a waypoint somewhere, and the putting the depots behind it
16:05<frosch123>send the train to the waypoint, then to nearest depot
16:10<andythenorth>my FIRS class design is flawed. At least one of the classes behaves significantly differently depending on which parameters are passed
16:10<andythenorth>confusing
16:11<andythenorth>and the parameters are not orthogonal; passing two that conflict will just result in broken behaviour
16:11<MNIM>frosch123: I do know, but I haven't been able to find a good purpose for it so far
16:12<frosch123>i use it to service many vehicles (which a single depot cannot handle) at a defined point on the routr
16:12<frosch123>route
16:13<frosch123>but maybe i missed the topic :p
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: care to elaborate?
16:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: this will behave quite differently depending whether a value for 'type' is passed http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1955/
16:16<andythenorth>the templates tell the rest of the story, but you don't need to see all that :P
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>so "type" should be a subclass, you mean?
16:17<andythenorth>possibly
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>class GroundSpriteset(Spriteset)
16:18<andythenorth>more likely I should subclass for GroundSpriteset yes
16:18-!-MinchinWeb [~MinchinWe@S01066431505f320b.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd
16:18<andythenorth>then elsewhere check what class I have, instead of checking the value of type
16:19<andythenorth>I don't have any bugs from the current code, it's just weird
16:19<@Alberth>the code *knows* what class it is in :)
16:20<@Alberth>MNIM: don't you get crazy from all those new vehicle announcements?
16:20<andythenorth>as usual, I have code that works, but it will look funny to other people :P
16:28<@Alberth>that's normal :p
16:28<MNIM>new vehicle announcements?
16:28<@Alberth>the best indication is that you look at your code, and think "that can be done better"
16:28<MNIM>oh, you mean the new available vehicles
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>i get crazy from prototype offers for vehicle types that don't interest me
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>like a dozen trucks of cargos that i don't transport by truck
16:29<MNIM>they can be annoying, but it's not every day
16:29<@Alberth>you can't even quietly watch the trains :)
16:29*andythenorth -> bed
16:29<@Alberth>good night
16:29<andythenorth>converting these classes will have to wait :P
16:30<andythenorth>bye
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16:33<MNIM>D'oh.
16:34<MNIM>solved one deadlock, created another with all trains trying to go to an inaccessible depot
16:38<@Alberth>:)
16:39<@Alberth>I added some tracks so trains could get out faster
16:39<@Alberth>and then it sorted itself out
16:39<@Alberth>good night
16:40<frosch123>upload it as scenario to bananas: resolve the jam :)
16:40<@Alberth>this one is too easy :)
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16:41*MNIM prefers 'natural' solutions which don't require (too much) extra rails
16:42<frosch123>"natural solutions"? you mean crash all trains?
16:42<MNIM>but yeah, I'll double-up that depot, the other depot(s) on this line already are doubled
16:42<MNIM>frosch123: no, that's for when Im in a bad mood :P
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16:56<Kitty>26
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17:00<Wolf01>hello
17:08<@Terkhen>good night
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17:20<frosch123>night
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18:24<MNIM>Whoops.
18:24<MNIM>I just realized that one neglected line I'm still running steam engines... in 1998
18:25<MNIM>those are some truly hardy old grampas!
18:25<Pinkbeast>Welp, China's still running QJs...
18:26<MNIM>elswhere on the map Ive got trains regularly passing 300kmh and here I am running a good old little steam line, frequently single-track, too
18:26<MNIM>Pinkbeast: I know, but aren't those only for coal mine transports?
18:26<MNIM>the coal transports were actually the first line to be electrified in this game XD
18:27<Pinkbeast>Yes - the economics of steam are different if you have a lot of cheap labour and you're on top of an open-cast coalmine. :-)
18:29<supermop>MNIM: think of it as a preserved historic line
18:30<Pinkbeast>It's a great pity one can't actually do that
18:31<MNIM>heh. I might actually just electrify the tracks and add some electric trains, but keep the steamers, because I can
18:31<Pinkbeast>In UKRS1 I've certainly run one or two lines with 5ATs
18:31*MNIM looks
18:31<MNIM>nope. won't electrify that just yet
18:32<MNIM>I'll just dieselize it and add another type of train to my growing list.
18:33<Pinkbeast>Ick, diesels
18:34<MNIM>well, it's that or electrifying a pretty long track
18:35<Pinkbeast>Doesn't the track conversion tool still drag out into a square?
18:35<MNIM>yes
18:35<Pinkbeast>Electrify the world!
18:36<MNIM>I can't be bothered... also, electrifying that will likely empty my bank account.
18:36<MNIM>I'm playing with nutracks.
18:36<Pinkbeast>Goodness me, what sort of game are you playing where money's an issue in 1998? Oh, but with nutracks you can't just blindly electrify the world, indeed.
18:38<MNIM>I've got trains that earn me 6mil a year, but electrifying a meandering track of more than 400 squares as the bird flies still costs a bit. :P
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19:04<drac_boy>hi
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19:20<Eddi|zuHause>birds tend to not fly manhattan-distance :)
19:21<drac_boy>heh?
19:27<Flygon>MNIM: Sorry, fell asleep x:
19:27<Flygon>You and I play very diffrently x3
19:28*drac_boy pokes flygon with a shovel from the Red Devil
19:28<drac_boy>:p
19:29<Flygon>drac_boy: http://i43.tinypic.com/v8lyzr.jpg
19:29<Flygon>The wonders of Google Image Search
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-1988-0426-033,_Eisenbahnungl%C3%BCck_zwischen_Ferdinandshof_und_Borkenfriede.jpg&filetimestamp=20081209172715
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>the wonders of actually knowing where stuff is...
19:30<drac_boy>flygon....funny NOT! -_-
19:30<Wolf01>'night all
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19:30<Flygon>drac_boy: Considering nobody was actually (seriously) injured in the incident
19:30<Flygon>The whole backstory behind the incident is fascinating
19:30<drac_boy>ic...empty train move or it was just about to be loaded?
19:31<Flygon>Basically: The train forgot to put on its own handbrake
19:31<Flygon>The EMU, that is
19:31<Flygon>So it went downhill for around 50km, going up to 110km/h through curves and crossings designed for 55km/h, and Metrol actually had zero physical sightings of the train. They required third party wittnesses to figure out what is going on.
19:32<Flygon>About the only solution they could come up with on-time is to route it onto a country platform. They didn't know a V/Line locomotive was parked there.
19:32<drac_boy>flygon mind you there was one particular historic accident I did kinda find interesting..
19:32<Flygon>Basically, V/Line staff jumped out, EMU crashed, EMU car got scrapped and the locomotive... needed a new windscreen and tyres
19:33<Flygon>And that's about it @_@
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19:33<Flygon>Despite the entire set being pushed back 20 meters by the force
19:34<drac_boy>shunter moving freight wagons around with diffrent cuts sitting either on the main line or in the loop .. somehow one of the unbraked cut managed to flee and to make things worser outside the siding block was a bit of downgrade ...
19:34-!-KritiK [~Maxim@128-72-133-230.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:34<Flygon>(Metrol didn't actually know if there was people inside the EMU... luckily, nobody was really inside, since most disembarked at the terminus)
19:35<Flygon>Urg, brb
19:35<Flygon>Gotta shunt some cars
19:35<Flygon>Someone's mowing
19:35<drac_boy>several freight wagons found themself all splat up into pieces into an occupied loco-hauled (note THAT thankfully) passenger train ... and even before the court was able to start the switchman was quite ill with grief that he had to be execused from his job immedately .. post-court he was assigned to a different working
19:36<drac_boy>noone was really at fault..it was just too many years of minor violations and whats-not building up over time
19:36<Pinkbeast>"Signalman's Morning" tells of some nasty near-misses involving slip coaches
19:37<drac_boy>and that particular freight siding? signals were rebuilt and they put a new derail trap just by the top of the slope so if such an event was to happen again the wagons would had just simply crashed into grassy ground one second later instead of actually rolling away
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19:39<drac_boy>Pinkbeast slip coaches .. that these strange uk coaches that could be cut off on fly and were more or less selfbraked-able
19:39<drac_boy>or am i wrong?
19:39<Pinkbeast>Yes, except very definitely selfbraked-able
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19:40<drac_boy>I never really understood them but then I'm more interested in matching locomotives and trains for entire routes which is what that slipcoach thing contrasts with
19:41<Pinkbeast>There's a lot of good stuff in those books, like the tendency for express crews to lob notes wrapped around lumps of coal onto the platform so the signalman could phone ahead... in one case saying "lost coal shovel, firing by hand"
19:41<Pinkbeast>Well, the motivation's clear - steam's rotten acceleration. If you can drop off pax without stopping, glee!
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19:42<drac_boy>Pinkbeast actually some of the smaller usa locomotives had no problem with fast accerlation so its somewhat pretty much just uk
19:42<Flygon>Back
19:43<Pinkbeast>Hardly, no; there are quite fundamental reasons why steam has poor acceleration.
19:43<Pinkbeast>... and no locomotive-hauled train can possibly accelerate like a modern EMU
19:43<Flygon>drac_boy: Yeowch. Sounds quite painful. x:
19:43<drac_boy>interestingly enough for a few years on one commuter operation it was powered almost all by bumped-off-mainline powers and the several times they tried to fetch diesel replacements even from emd they all failed in accrlation and were either sold back or reassigned to non-rush timetables
19:44<Flygon>Pinkbeast: What about a steam car? :p
19:44<drac_boy>the stations were barely kilometers apart or less .. so that goes to show you what THEY thought about locomotive accerlations!
19:44<Flygon>Why not multi-head the locomotives?
19:44<Pinkbeast>I've only been on Elizabeth the steam bus in Whitby and she gets up to speed in a leisurely, lady-like fashion
19:45<drac_boy>Flygon that means one less coach to haul which on a commuter railroad is a bit of a backward idea ;)
19:45<Flygon>In Victoria, we have branchline locomotives working mainline passenger by push-pull, for example
19:45<Flygon>Then have the locomotives go over the platform
19:45<Pinkbeast>Tends to lead to issues with overlapping points
19:45<Flygon>A 6 car long platform? Use the 6 passenger cars :p
19:45<Flygon>Ah
19:45<Flygon>I see
19:46<Flygon>It's never been seen as a huuuuge issue here, provided you planned the trip well
19:46<Flygon>And I've been on several trains with more carriages than platform
19:46<Pinkbeast>Well, if the station's built with the overhang in mind - you're fine.
19:46<drac_boy>Flygon the point was .. it was eg a single 4-6-2 hauling 14 coaches .. and they could sure get up to speed quite fast still .. meanwhile the attempt with either emd GP9 or FM road etc all kept coming up too slow and short ... so steam had to stay for the reason of being better with accerlation
19:46<Flygon>Hmm
19:47<Flygon>Either way, it explains some of the exhaustively confusing point sets in some stations
19:47<drac_boy>and even then .. eventually they finally got budd to build them several bilevel coaches for non-rush trains
19:47<Pinkbeast>You get that here, but of course it's that the platform being shorter than the "normal" length, so the points are positioned appropriately
19:47<Flygon>drac_boy: I see
19:47<Flygon>When WCR used steam in the 90s and 2000s, they had an unusal problem
19:48<Flygon>The steam locomotives they used actually had pretty poor acceleration, but pretty fantastic top speed. So they ended up using the (what's suppose to be backup) MU controls to use an old T or P class Diesel to accelerate faster
19:48<Flygon>If both engine were put to full throttle, you'd probably help give some of the older EMU's some run for money :p
19:49<drac_boy>Flygon of course there was another slight funny thing that was to do with the Rock Island commuters .. sometimes they would be a bit short on power allocation so they'll just book some of the freight locomotives instead ... and of these the few particular alco ones had one slight silly thing..
19:49<Flygon>Heh...
19:49<Psyk>excuse me, but what is MU and EMU? :]
19:49<Flygon>I know exactly what you mean
19:49<Flygon>Psyk: Multiple-unit, and Electrical Multiple Unit
19:49<Flygon>The latter usually refers to cars that are self-propelled (no locomotive)
19:50<Psyk>thanks
19:50<Psyk>"language barrier" and "shortcut barrier" :)
19:50<Flygon>The former usually refers to multiple locomotives working together (regardless of the type of engine used)
19:50<Psyk>shortcut barrier is even worse
19:50<Flygon>Welcome to the world of foamer speak
19:50<drac_boy>they only could go up to 45mph no more .. but here's the catch .. they really could accerlate on a dime so for the short platform intervals they actually worked out ok .... load passenger ... start off .. before the train could even clear the platform its already hitting 45 like "GOOD GRIEF, HANG ONTO YOUR HATS!!" from anyone still on platform :p
19:51<Flygon>drac_boy: Hahaha, nice
19:51<drac_boy>so....crappy top speed but .. could clear stations too fast ;)
19:51<Pinkbeast>Here EMU and DMU implies not just self-propelled but, well, multiple; you can join them together.
19:51<drac_boy>Flygon thats what you get for lot of hp through low freight gearings .... :)
19:51-!-Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit []
19:51<Pinkbeast>And MU would mean "EMU or DMU", never multiple locomotives
19:52<Flygon>Here, most passenger and freight locomotives are interchangable. Probably because they all have similar horsepower and top speed ratings (1500 to 3500 range for hp, and 115 to 130km/h for top speed, 100km/h for T/P class)
19:52<Flygon>Pinkbeast: Regional variance?
19:52<drac_boy>flygon about passenger trains...
19:52<Pinkbeast>Flygon: that's pretty well been the case since the end of steam most places - it's only steam that tends to need a difference
19:53<Pinkbeast>drac: this is just a grossly overpowered locomotive for the job, though.
19:53<Pinkbeast>Frex the Class 91 here is used for express pax (designed for 140mph) but has a flat cab for freight workings at the other end.
19:53<Pinkbeast>Anyway, AFK for 10 minutes or so
19:53<Flygon>Pinkbeast: Whenever there's a letter added, I've always seen it as self-propelled. When it's just 'MU', I see it as locomotives
19:54<drac_boy>they were a bit rare (especially photos..you know how using a camera outside the tench during war was like I imagine) but during middle and late WWII when any request for new locomotives almost always were declined railroads had to shop for surplus/sidelined power from other roads even if they didn't like it .. after all tractive was tractive in a way ...
19:54<Flygon>We'd have dual-cabbed streamliners here... flatend is shunt only
19:54<drac_boy>in many cases it caused a lot of odd things you would never see non-war
19:54<drac_boy>like how about finding a 1911-dated heavy mountain coal drag mallet being pressed into powering a santa fe train through calfornia?
19:55<Flygon>Oh jeeze O_O
19:55<Pinkbeast>Ah, the Class 91 is in practice dual-cabbed streamliner because on pax workings there's always a DVT on the other end (an identically shaped object with a cab and no engine)
19:55<drac_boy>it may had been able to haul an endless strong of troop coaches on its own easily .. but it was rather slow for the flatland lines nevertheless ... by the late 1945 they were immedately scrapped like as if that was obvious!
19:56<drac_boy>late 1945 you could slowly start ordering locomotives again .. so made sense
19:56<Pinkbeast>Huh, WW2 saw a lot of new-build here, just mostly 2-8-0 Austerities and the like. (And the Merchant Navies, but Bulleid was a bit mad)
19:56<Flygon>Pinkbeast: You can't easily get away with engineless cab driving here. Unions would go nuts, the media would beat the crap out of it, and passengers would be terrified for their safety. Push-pull is very popular here (or just D/EMU operation).
19:56<drac_boy>flygon some railroads were really pinched to get any power to handle a overwheming amount of war trains anyway
19:57<Flygon>drac_boy: It's a shame the preservation movement didn't exist then
19:57<Pinkbeast>Flygon: I think you must misunderstand me somehow because there isn't really any safety implication
19:58<Flygon>Not surprised speed was awful on flats, though :p
19:58<drac_boy>flygon one crazy side about WWII tho was .. there were very little oil pipelines so a lot of oil had to go by trains .. and many (as stories told) of the tank cars were pulled out of the storage yard .. given just enough patchup to run ... a few trips they're back with problems .. patched up and sent out ... and repeat
19:58<Flygon>Pinkbeast: In case of an accident, driving cab-end will cause the weight of the locomotive from behind to crash into the carriages
19:58<Flygon>In push-pull, a locomotive, no matter which end driven, can absorb much of the force
19:58<drac_boy>no wonder that when the pipelines were improved and trucks got better .. tank cars were finally sidelined by the thousands which was just as well .. they were literally running off their axles
19:59<Flygon>drac_boy: MacGyver would have a great job then. Duct tape repairman
19:59<drac_boy>"patch patch and more patch!" as one person remarked
19:59<drac_boy>metal shortage was a chronical problem
20:00<Flygon>Not surprising
20:00<drac_boy>flygon of course you can't forget one thing that helped usa a lot probably.... the GG1's
20:00*Flygon glances at Wooden Fighter Jets
20:00<Flygon>Ah, yes, those
20:00<drac_boy>electrification during the 30's ... then suddenly crunched big-time by all the passengers during the 40's
20:00<Flygon>I'm not entirely surprised :)
20:02<drac_boy>flygon theres' one slight funny story tho... the PE system in calfornia? during war there was a lot of freights that they had to requelish a lot of small steamers (think 0-6-0 switcher etc, don't forget a lot of the tracks had sligth tight street curves in them) .. but because the signals were activated by overhead wire contact .. such trains had to be paired with at least one boxcab
20:03<drac_boy>so nothing like a photo of a 0-6-0 plodding by with a 'dead' electric boxcab in tow followed by at least 30 or more random freight wagons
20:03<drac_boy>they didn't have enough of their own electric locos to go around with with all the tonnages
20:03<Flygon>@_@ Wow
20:04<Flygon>I guess it was impractical to install pantographs onto the steam engines? (coal-less heating anyone?)
20:04<drac_boy>Flygon actually...the signal circuits started from the overhead line and went down to the rails .. so I don't think a dummy trolley arm would ever work anyway
20:04<Flygon>Ah, I see
20:04<Flygon>Fun
20:05<drac_boy>flygon either way there was one little interesting footnote...
20:06<drac_boy>N&W was pretty much a coal+freight railroad with almost no passenger trains to its name (a few 'locals' maybe basically) .. then uddenly during WWII they were pressed into having to deal with more than twentyfold passenger loading
20:06<Pinkbeast>Switzerland did, during the war, install pantographs on steam shunters to heat water
20:06<Flygon>Pinkbeast: That's where I got the idea
20:06<Flygon>drac_boy: I can't imagine how overjoyed they'd have been :p
20:07<Pinkbeast>And re the earlier thing, remember we already had the Class 43, with a locomotive on each end, so whichever way around the set is in a crash, there's a locomotive behind you.
20:07<drac_boy>flygon not so much tbh ... few stations on top of having to fetch a lot of new passenger crews (that includes conductors) from other railroads .... if there were any not drafted oversea
20:07<Pinkbeast>... of course we made heavy use of banking locomotives during steam, which conversely are nice because if the train separates the back half doesn't run away downhill
20:08<Flygon>I was being sarcastic, drac_boy :p
20:08<drac_boy>flygon :p
20:08<drac_boy>Pinkbeast interestingly enough a lot of the northeast usa trains choosed to have the helper as pilot locomotives ... not everyone used or wanted to use a banker
20:08<drac_boy>even NYC just as well
20:09<Flygon>Pinkbeast: Again, actually crashing with a locomotive and not a lightweight carriage will absorb a lot of the impact. The damage caused by the rear locomotive is reduced significantly.
20:09<Pinkbeast>Ah, but the DVT's designed as a giant crumple zone
20:09<drac_boy>nothing like watching a train doing 55mph uphill with the standard EA-EB-EA power being assisted by a 4-8-4 cut in just ahead of the baggage
20:10<Pinkbeast>It came out because at the time you weren't allowed to carry pax in the front vehicle above 100mph _at all_, no crash resistance standard for that.
20:10<Pinkbeast>Whereas modern *MUs do it.
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20:10<Pinkbeast>drac: Well, a banker's a nuisance if all you have to communicate with is whistle codes
20:10<Flygon>Pinkbeast: Considering the area I'm in lacks trains that can legally even break 110mph... :p
20:11<Flygon>(at least, for non-testing purposes. Whooo-ee, does 125-130mph rumble the ground @_@)
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20:11<Pinkbeast>It's a pity the 91s can only routinely run at 125 not the design 140, but where on earth are you? We're about as slow as anywhere outside the USA
20:12<drac_boy>Pinkbeast actually on some freight railroads that ran infrequent but quite heavy trains .. they almost always used bankers ... sometimes they do it so often that it just becomes "quietly normal" as in that everyone knows what to do without having to talk at all....let me show an example...
20:12<Flygon>Victoria, Australia
20:12<Flygon>Our tracks and signalling limit the speed of our trains
20:12<Pinkbeast>I suspect Big Bertha's operations were quite routine (the 0-10-0 the Midland built for one bank)
20:12<Flygon>Same applies for the rest of the country, honestly
20:13<Pinkbeast>Ah, yes, you've got a bad case of car culture and internal flights, haven't you?
20:13<Flygon>Ironically, this was less of an issue in the 30s and 40s, despite worse grade track and semaphore signalling
20:13<Pinkbeast>Well, the Yanks were as fast as anyone in the 30s, God knows what went wrong there
20:13<Flygon>eg. Steam locomotives going over 140km/h... when the paper recorder ran out of paper (the track was graded for 80km/h)
20:14<Flygon>Keep in mind, in Australia, 115km/h was considered blindingly fast. Our tech lacked much external intervention due to difficulty in communication and freight transport
20:14<drac_boy>B&O EM-1 (yes a big mallet) with long mixed freight train coast to a known (eg tree landmark or so) stop point ... second EM-1 that was sitting in a short empty spur backs out and couple onto rear ... whistles off for brake test then a few minute later ... get response to bunch in .. and pretty soon enough train's rolling
20:14<drac_boy>no dispatcher phone or any crew comminucations .. they've done it so many times they know whats going to happen anyway
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20:15<Flygon>Frankly, I think some of VR's later steam locomotives could have broken 180km/h if given a track that wasn't awful :p
20:15<Pinkbeast>Cough murmur Australia's not that far from Japan and they had to catch up in a hurry in the late 19th century
20:15<drac_boy>funny thing is some of these helper locomotive holding point had nothing but just a crude wooden seat and a weather-covered phone box ... thats all there was
20:15<Flygon>Pinkbeast, Japan INVADED Australia
20:16<Flygon>Though, we did sell excessive amounts of iron to them until WWII happened
20:16<Flygon>We have an interesting relationship
20:16<drac_boy>for coal or anything they just simply phoned the dispatcher for clearance to head to yard for a short time .. then to come back to this waiting place :)
20:16<Pinkbeast>Errr I'm not sure this is directly pertinent to their history of railway development
20:16<Pinkbeast>My point is they have the same difficulties in communication etc
20:17<Flygon>The difference with Japan is, is that they're good at innovation. All Australia does (and still does) is make stuff bigger :p
20:17<Flygon>Try to imagine British style locomotives that have been Americanized in a British fashion :B
20:18<Pinkbeast>What really impressed me was that Japan went from having their first steam railway to completing the first locomotive designed and built by Japanese people in... ten years
20:18<Flygon>Japan is very very good at rapidly developing stuff
20:18<Flygon>As is much of Asia (eg. China, Korea)
20:19<drac_boy>flygon mind you there were a few ex-accident locomotives that had scotch-like (forgot exact name if that wasn't it) designs after their rebuild ... a flat tube with only the sand dome and smokestack otherwise breaking it up :) (never knew where they mount the big air pumps on these tho...!)
20:19<drac_boy>in usa that is
20:19<Flygon>Frankly, it would have been interesting to import Japanese technology to Australia from the 20s to 30s (presuming they didn't mind working @ 1600mm, instead of 1067mm :p)
20:20<Flygon>But the only currency we were really allowed to trade in was the British pound. So we imported stuff from Britian instead.
20:20<Pinkbeast>Well, I'm led to believe that Mr Gresley's locomotives were not totally awful. :-)
20:21<drac_boy>oh hm that reminds me of something else...
20:21<Flygon>This made it very hard to get Diesels, even in the 50s (coupled with a conservative train company). So when Operation Pheonix/Dieselize Victoria happened... over half the order (from locally and abroad... Britian helped most with the Diesel, if I recall correctly, however) was actually superpowered Steam locomotives
20:21<Flygon>By superpowered... I mean, compared to other Australian locos :p
20:21<Flygon>Gresley was a genius
20:22<Flygon>http://www.noarail.com/members2/d/2373-2/H+220+Heavy+Harry.JPG But he wouldn't like an Australian built attempt at improving upon steam technology... too heavy, despite being the most powerful bugger on the continent until 1995 :p
20:22<drac_boy>btw flygon you know what a feedwater heater is?
20:23<Flygon>Feedwater heater...
20:23<Flygon>Trying to remember
20:23<Pinkbeast>Use waste heat so you don't squirt completely cold water into the boiler
20:23<Flygon>Ah, interesting
20:23<Flygon>That's genius
20:23<drac_boy>most locomotives had them as a cylinder mounted sideway just ahead of the smokestack .. or placed somewhere down either side of the boiler ... but there was one particular company that umm had an odd one ....
20:24<drac_boy>http://www.shorpy.com/files/images/BM4000.preview.jpg thats a Coffin feedwater ... makes the locomotive look a little bit like a hooded villian :->
20:24<drac_boy>U shaped ahead of the boiler :)
20:25<Pinkbeast>A lot of German locomotives have a cylindrical hump atop the boiler which I think is one. Could be wrong.
20:25<Flygon>I think the hood is the least of that locomotive's worries :D
20:25<drac_boy>Flygon you do agree that it looks odd tho like a hooded thing? :)
20:25<Flygon>That is one of the most unelegant locomotives I've ever seen :P
20:25<Flygon>It does, though, yes
20:26<drac_boy>flygon heh ... if you want another 'unelegant' ...
20:27<Pinkbeast>http://www.semgonline.com/steam/pics/rs_33006.jpg # unelegant, but a rare good design from Mr Bulleid
20:28<drac_boy>some of the late super power locomotives had many air compressors to deal with that with little space they just simply slap all four of them right on the front .. two to the left of the headlight .. other two to the right
20:28<drac_boy>you almost couldn't see the door that way ...!
20:29<drac_boy>function over fashion after all I guess
20:29<Flygon>Pinkbeast: At least it doesn't look like a Frankenstine Monster :p
20:30<Pinkbeast>Also an exhaust injector heats water for free anyway, and a feedwater heater means you can't use injectors which are a simple design with a minimum of moving parts, even if they do work by magic
20:31<Flygon>http://www.victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/pics/r707.jpg http://www.vr-enthusiast.com/locos/s_steam/01.jpg Victoria had a tendancy to go for nice looks when practical... and yet, those two are probably the most powerful (successful) designs in Victoria :p
20:31<Pinkbeast>I do find the amount of crap hanging off the outside of German locomotives quite alarming
20:31<Flygon>(the H-class I showed earlier failed, due to heavy axle load, and WWII preventing line updeades to handle it)
20:31<drac_boy>Pinkbeast why? :P
20:32<Pinkbeast>British practice was not to do that where possible, partly because of our small loading gauge. Inside cylinders hung on for a long, long time here.
20:33<drac_boy>heh tbh Pinkbeast I kinda prefer locomotives that don't constrain themself just because of the gauge .. that including very short boiler-to-piston length while still keeping the valves accessible ... which means the pistons kinda sticks outward a bit
20:33<drac_boy>but to our own ways ;)
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20:34<drac_boy>mind you I think thats how the british Crab was so nicknamed .. it had a slight upward angle to its pistons
20:34<Pinkbeast>I'm not really saying anything from an engineering POV, just that they look very odd. Especially since many of them are also painted in fascist black-and-red
20:34<Flygon>Pinkbeast: Victoria had a larger loading gauge... and yet we adopted British practice of keeping things neat and tidy
20:35<Flygon>New South Wales, however... oh lordy me
20:35<Flygon>They had a much larger loading gauge
20:35<Flygon>So much so, they built the world's first DD EMU's
20:35<drac_boy>Pinkbeast heh .. well I prefer the non-black tires and everything but mm
20:35<Pinkbeast>drac: some think that, some because of the skittering sensation when moving at speed (also indirectly a product of the piston angle)
20:35<Flygon>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/3801_(NSW_steam_locomotive)_1.JPG This one looks really good, however
20:36<Pinkbeast>Well, aside from the rocket launcher mounted on the side of it. ;-)
20:36<Pinkbeast>... or whatever that object is :-)
20:37<drac_boy>Pinkbeast its no wonder why 0-4-0 of any sort were so few and usually restricted in their workings in usa ... with no guiding axles they were too much like ducks .. walloping side to side all over the place ... could and did cause silly derailments sometimes
20:37<Flygon>Pinkbeast, it's 90% bullet. May as well be a Steam-Shinkansen :P
20:37<drac_boy>2-4-0 or so were much more common and had bit better working till killed by the moguls/etc tho
20:37<Pinkbeast>0-6-0 freights were quite successful here
20:38<drac_boy>0-6-0 did exist in big numbers ... after all three axles made for very small walloping if any at all .. mind you they were "the" choice for yards and station shunting at times
20:38<Flygon>http://www.asterhobbyusa.com/images/AD60Garratt1.jpg This is what I meant, by New South Wales going for more unusual designs
20:38<Pinkbeast>One of the odd things about the Austerities is the wheels are weighted to minimise hammerblow at the cost of crew comfort. Not popular in preservation. :-/
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20:39<Pinkbeast>Oh, I like Garratts, it's just a pity the only standard-gauge Garratt class here was crap. (There are one-offs like Gresley's).
20:39<Flygon>http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7171/6450283435_4e2acfdb1f_z.jpg Bloody massive, too. The Victorian Railways Heavy Harry may be the most insanely powerful and gigantic non-articulated steam loco in Australia... but New South Wales knew how to articulate
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20:39<Flygon>And apperantly the AD60 class was absolutely brilliant
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20:40<Flygon>Shame they couldn't be exported to Victoria. Our loading gauge is too small.
20:41<Pinkbeast>The Ffestiniog has some preserved narrow-gauge Garratts, but they're not high-power monsters, just very bendy
20:41<Flygon>And I imagine their axle load would have worked wonders on the Albury and Adelaide lines (which were the two due to be upgraded for Heavy Harry... Albury got upgraded on time, due to already having the heavy Spirit of Progress trains)
20:42<Flygon>Anyway, I gotta brb
20:42<Flygon>Being forced to put shopping on the line
20:42<Flygon>Er
20:42<Flygon>clothes fff
20:42<drac_boy>flygon btw did I tell you about alco locomotives with loose trucks and baldwins that refused to die without blowing up something in the engine?
20:43<Flygon>Wait, nvm
20:43<Flygon>Gimmie 17 mins
20:43<drac_boy>heh ok
20:43<Flygon>Mum was confusing in her instructions
20:43<Pinkbeast>17: highly specific
20:43<Flygon>Machine has 17 mins to go
20:43<drac_boy>Pinkbeast in case you were not around before..what I had told flygon before was a bit silly....
20:43<Flygon>drac_boy: Alco must have been a great builder
20:44<drac_boy>apparently some of the early alco diesel road units had their trucks designed to be very flexible to deal with old rusty rails normal of old branchlines ... as story went the trucks were so loose that parts sometimes would fall off as one axle rode into a hard dip then rose back up just as the other axle dropped down just as well
20:44<Pinkbeast>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Duchess_of_Hamilton_-_Tivedshambo_2006-06-05.jpg # I don't know that Sir Nigel will forgive me, but personally I think the unstreamlined Duchesses look as good as anything ever
20:45<Flygon>o.o
20:45<Pinkbeast>The giant Chinese locomotive in the NRM has the suspension arrangement to deal with awful track
20:45<Flygon>Wow, that... heh
20:45<Flygon>@ drac_boy
20:46<Flygon>Pinkbeast: That is one smoothass looking locomotive
20:46<drac_boy>and then when it came to baldwins .. well ... of all the silly thing they could snap a crankshaft (this was a 12-inline block mind you) and still keep running like as if nothing happened in the first place ... plus an old engineer remarked "if they don't keep leaking oil then something's wrong with them" .. !!! as if it was supposed to always leak a bit all the times normally :)
20:46<drac_boy>some of these old locomotives sure could refuse to die unlike a lot of the modern plastic crap we have today :p
20:46<Flygon>drac_boy: You'll love Australia then
20:47<Pinkbeast>Huh. The Merchant Navies used to leak oil from the chain-driven valve gear. One thing I didn't appreciate until recently was that this caused the boiler cladding to get covered in oil, as well as the locomotive to skip.
20:47<Flygon>The only times I've seen old Diesels die is when their dynamic brakes catch on fire
20:47<Pinkbeast>Of course, coal dust likes to stick to oily boiler cladding.
20:47<Flygon>Luckily, a fair few of them still have asbestos that was designed to counter this :P
20:47<Flygon>(most fires happen in units that are part of a MU operation... luckily, the oes that don't have the driver inside)
20:47<drac_boy>and pinkbeast its not just usa .. I was reading about how one railroad in europe was finally retiring their 50 years old electric locomotives for new one .. and the weird thing is... the new ones had more problems during winter because the old one had been built with more stern metals in them! :)
20:47<Pinkbeast>And braking sparks love to stick to oil-and-coal-dust covered boiler cladding, and then the fire brigade has to be called.
20:48<Pinkbeast>Dear Mr Bulleid, the fire is meant to be on the inside!
20:48<drac_boy>Pinkbeast heh I probably would had not minded being in the crew on such locomotives :)
20:48<Pinkbeast>They were very popular with crews, actually.
20:48<Flygon>I wouldn't really trust anyone but Americans and Australians to build trains for Australia anyway...
20:49<Pinkbeast>Absolute maintenance queens, but the thing Bulleid got right was that the boiler (and firebox, blastpipe etc) were spot on - it used to be said they'd steam on a candle
20:49<Flygon>The one time CityRail (Sydney's train operator) tried to order Chinese trains, they spent several years and lots of money repairing and upgrading the delivered trains, because they were that awful
20:49<Flygon>It would have been cheaper to put up with the high cost of Aussie construction :p
20:49<drac_boy>Pinkbeast you know why I always think about this kind of idocisms? because my old heavy wagon of a toyota is rather the same thing ... it always has non-critical issues all the times but it never wouldn't run so meh :P
20:50<Pinkbeast>Well, they wouldn't run when they were ON FIRE
20:50<Flygon>(and faster, despite out critically overworked and constantly delayed workshops)
20:50<Pinkbeast>... and they slipped like buggers because of the leaky oil baths, and the chains stretched so the valve events went wonky...
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20:51<Pinkbeast>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Union-of-South-Africa.jpg # also very good looking but I do secretly prefer the Princess Coronations
20:51<drac_boy>pinkbeast....you want to know what is one of the several weird "warning" I always get from parking my wagon somewhere for a long time?
20:51<Pinkbeast>In particular they shared Exeter with GWR 4-6-0s which hardly slip at all. "Clang, clang, clang, most un-Churchward".
20:51<Pinkbeast>I haven't been in a car for 5 years so it may be mysterious to me
20:52<drac_boy>excuse me sir, that pod on the roof is literally dumping fluid down your windshield???
20:52<drac_boy>some people just have no clue that a run-on ac unit always has to dump water somewhere ... duh
20:53<drac_boy>and thats only one of the many 'problems' I have with my wagon heh :)
20:55<drac_boy>btw pinkbeast about these Navies ... the Alco RS locomotives sometimes had problem with spurting so much black oil out of the exhaust stacks that you had a very smeared windhsield with the wiper not even being able to do anything to help at all but just make more streaks
20:55<drac_boy>no wonder a lot of these RS units were eventually set to run short hood forward so all the exhaust stacks was *behind* the cab!
20:57<drac_boy>pinkbeast about "most un-churchward" .. here is something you might like to know about...
20:58<drac_boy>the PRR GG1? most of its techology started from trolleycars so...its not too much of a surprise when an author (of the article in question) took a ride in one of these NJ owned GG1 and almost had too much laughter when he heard this locomotive starting out of the station platform .. it actually went clang!-clang!-clang! just like a real trolleycar
20:58<drac_boy>as soon as it got up to some speed the clanging went away ofc .. but still .. goes to show you
20:59<Pinkbeast>I was quite surprised the first time a German train said "Nachste haltestelle... links" to me, which in retrospect is an obvious thing to do
21:10<drac_boy>so now what? :p heh
21:14*drac_boy pokes flygon already
21:14*Flygon honks
21:15<drac_boy>heh .. your 17 minute's already gone by :P
21:15<Flygon>Sorry, been processing some stuff
21:15<Flygon>Oh, lemme check the washing machine
21:15<Flygon>Thanks, dracco!
21:15*drac_boy whacks flygon with a wet towle
21:15<drac_boy>:|
21:15<drac_boy>heh
21:22<Flygon>Back
21:33<drac_boy>flygon its a bit humorful but anyway....
21:34<drac_boy>there was a classic train special issue magazine .. and guess what was near the back page inside? it talked about how the last steam locomotive to be retired was actually the GG1 .... after all it was an "steam era" electric locomotive heh...
21:35<drac_boy>the editor made these pointers: brass bell, idler axles ("what diesels even had them?"), steam boiler heaters (before eventually being replaced with diesel era electric water heaters), visibility out of the cab just like a steam locomotive boiler, sanders worked with spigots, and lastly that the chassis was built at a steam locomotive tender shop
21:36<drac_boy>heh
21:36<Pinkbeast> I assume this is some rather local meaning of "last" since we don't even know what the last working steam locomotive will be
21:37<drac_boy>Pinkbeast the GG1 ran well into the 1980s btw :p
21:37<drac_boy>forgot the exact date for the last (a special run actually) run ... but it was probably late 80's or early 90's for sure tho
21:38<Pinkbeast>Yes, but it still sure as hell is not going to beat the QJs because there are QJs in steam on ordinary revenue service right now
21:38<drac_boy>heh actually i still remember reading the article ... last mainline steam run in china several years ago
21:38<drac_boy>even had a special front tailsign made up for the run too
21:39<Pinkbeast>Last of something, but they're still running them for all that.
21:39<drac_boy>but ofc the sugar cane field islands still have a lot of these ex-american little locomotives scuttering everywhere .. on several different narrow gauges
21:39<drac_boy>even at least one operateable lima shay last someone wrote about visiting there rails
21:40<Flygon>Sorry for the delays
21:40<Flygon>I've been working through some important stuff
21:40<Pinkbeast>And unless they've finally died, there's a couple of Garratts in Zimbabwe still running. We don't know what'll be last, even not counting preservation.
21:40<Flygon>Gonna have to work on the comic again :P
21:40<drac_boy>and pinkbeast its kinda funny watching a locomotive being fired on waste canes ... makes for interesting smoke :)
21:40<Supercheese>Hah, the Rock Candy Mountain Railway? :P
21:41<Supercheese>Big Rock Candy*
21:44<Pinkbeast>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Austerity_at_Bickershaw_Colliery_02.jpg - August 1983
21:44<Pinkbeast>Likely not the last non-preserved steam here, but close to it
21:47<drac_boy>Pinkbeast btw I don't even know the operating history for pretty much almost everything so I can't think of anything to compare to but....
21:48<Pinkbeast>It's a wartime industrial design, basically.
21:48<drac_boy>Union Pacific actually owns one steam locomotive that they built brand new and *never* had ever retired it at all ... its used for special excurions or the so once in a while these years now ....
21:48<drac_boy>its the #8444 .. ex-844 (diesel renumbering...don't ask why)
21:48<Pinkbeast>Mmm, but I think that counts as "in preservation" now - I'm trying to think of places steam is used not just because it is steam
21:49<Pinkbeast>_Evening Star_ was expected to be preserved from day 1, of course
21:49<drac_boy>Pinkbeast the point is... who could you think of that bought a brand new locomotive .. and then used it in preservation even although it has *never* ever been taken off the rooster list?
21:50<drac_boy>just about everything else were retired aka always went through at least one major ownership change
21:50<Pinkbeast>Well, _Flying Scotsman_ was allowed to run on the mainline during the BR steam ban.
21:51<drac_boy>the same one that ended up in canada and usa for a while? :)
21:51<drac_boy>looking weird with the american headlight added to its smokestack line and everything..heh!
21:51<Flygon>Pinkbeast
21:51<Flygon>The Flying Scotsman steams EVERYWHERE
21:51<Flygon>Why
21:51<Flygon>It steamed from Brisbane to Perth!
21:51<Pinkbeast>Ah, and some of the Deutsche Reichsban steam went directly from being working locomotives in the DDR to Plandampf after the reunification
21:51<Flygon>It's a shame I wasn't alive in 1988
21:51<Pinkbeast>Very famous. One of the... five or so locomotives that might have been first to 100mph.
21:51<Flygon>It came to Australia to celebrate the bicentennnery
21:52<drac_boy>and btw did anyone know that the Mallard went to german for a special show .. to sit near its "enemy" the BR.05? :p
21:52*drac_boy still stands that the BR.05 was the one that held the actual speed record tho
21:52<Flygon>Then all the railways in Australia ran trains side-by-side the Scotsman... must have made some fun for the double-tracks that're technically one-way :p
21:52<Pinkbeast>But No. 4472 is, I guess, besides Thomas, the one locomotive everyone has heard of
21:53<Flygon>Pish posh, we all know the T1 could have made the steam record if anyone bothered to record official speed records :P
21:54<drac_boy>flygon..just read the timetable chart ... it'll tell you average top speed :p
21:54<Flygon>Shame none made it into preservation (and that they'd probably be too expensive to reproduce again)
21:54<Flygon>drac_boy, timetables don't cover when drivers completely ignore them :p
21:54<Pinkbeast>Urrr. The BR05s were faster, no doubt. And I daresay 05.002 could have beat 125mph. But they didn't.
21:54<drac_boy>that was how they figured out how fast the milwaukee hudsons could run in some places....
21:54<Flygon>eg. like how I said earlier, that the VR drivers would intentionally go around 140km/h when the speed recorder broke
21:54<DDR>Pinkbeast: Whut was in me again?
21:54<Flygon>On 80km/h line
21:55<Pinkbeast>DDR: err I find myself lacking context
21:55<drac_boy>"400 miles 400 minutes" was a famous timetable ... and there were several intermidate halts .. so the average speed was pretty much over 80mph easily :)
21:55<Pinkbeast>I'll be amused if that lot of Yanks who want to rebuild a 4-6-4 and beat 125mph do it. :-)
21:56<DDR>"[18:51] Pinkbeast Ah, and some of the Deutsche Reichsban steam went directly from being working locomotives in the DDR to Plandampf after the reunification"
21:56<Flygon>http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sVZCzjuZvbE/TWGeO-aY6eI/AAAAAAAAApk/P2exxtvRpRU/s1600/PRR+T1.jpg Rebuilt this, apperantly it went 140mph :p
21:56<Pinkbeast>DDR: steam locomotives?
21:57<Pinkbeast>Flygon: I think one has to be... cautious of these unsubstantiated figures
21:57<Flygon>I said apperantly
21:57<DDR>I have an impressive carrying capacity.
21:57<Flygon>I'm highly skeptical of figures over 130 myself
21:57<Pinkbeast>Yes, or perhaps I mean some other DDR? :-P
21:57<DDR>Possible... but I like to think not.
21:58<DDR>*ego* *ego* *ego*
21:58<Pinkbeast>Got any modular concrete apartment blocks in you?
21:58<Flygon>I still reckon it'd be fun to see an NSWGR AD60 or VR Heavy Harry try to break steam records, either way, now that Australia has some segments of near-HSR capable track :)
21:58<DDR>Uh, not unless my doctor isn't telling me something. I seem quite fleshy.
21:58<drac_boy>flygon here's another quiet speed record that only 3 people actually saw (basically the improper crew themself) ....
21:58<Flygon>Hm?
21:58<DDR>I'll concede you might have a point...
21:59<drac_boy>in the rockies of Colorado in the early days .. it turned out that of the family .. the wife was out for a stroll at night with friend .. got strucken by a car ... was bought home and doctor prescribed medicine but said the internal bleeding would be fatal in about 24 hours ...
22:00<Pinkbeast>Heavy Harry: huh, with someone else's conjugated valve gear
22:00<Flygon>Heavy Harry, meaning, the VR H-class
22:00<drac_boy>message was sent to the operating office where the husband was currently resting at ... he had to get back home some way .. but not the roads because that would had been too crazy in the dark ...
22:00<Flygon>But it's got a singular name because it's the one one of three that got built before WWII
22:01<Pinkbeast>Yeah, I've just been reading the wikipedia page :-)
22:01<Flygon>Ah, gotcha
22:01<drac_boy>so a lone locomotive was dispatched with him as its engineer and an order to supreceed this locomotive over all other trains ... the operator knew that as long as there was no accident the brass would not find out about this "personal transportation" ....
22:01<Pinkbeast>5' 7" drivers seem a bit optimistic for very high speed running
22:01<Flygon>Taxitrain?
22:02<DDR>Wow.
22:02<drac_boy>and sure enough the husband was able to have a few hours with his wife before she finally passed away .. and repeating the story many years later he said that he ran the locomotive so fast that on one curve the inside drivers actually lifted off the rails!!
22:02<Flygon>Pinkbeast: If the S-class managed 138km/h, I'd bet Harry could beat 160km/h
22:02<Pinkbeast>Even a Merchant Navy has 6' 2" drivers
22:02<drac_boy>this is a 3'6 gauge railroad with the locomotives having small tires and outside frame
22:02<Flygon>Even better if it broke 177km/h... that'd mean it officially 1-ups the VLocity OSpeed limits :B
22:02<drac_boy>so you can imagine how fast it must had been going into the curve!!!
22:03<Flygon>drac_boy: O_O
22:03<Flygon>Wow
22:04<Pinkbeast>Flygon: I think you may underestimate how hard it is to go faster - a Stirling Single could exceed 138 km/h in 1870
22:05<Flygon>I'm known for being an overt optimist
22:06<Flygon>And I doubt Harry would be ever taken out on speed runs anyway, given the immense repair costs (the R-class, by comparison, is comparitively cheap to repair... so, they weren't so worried about breaking 120km/h)
22:06<Pinkbeast>But I think more fundamentally what I'm saying is it doesn't matter how powerful a steam locomotive is if the driving wheels are too small, unless the valve gear is (as on the 5AT) of modern design
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22:10<Flygon>Hmm
22:10<Flygon>Good point
22:10<Pinkbeast>There's a reason the Singles look the way they do. :-)
22:10<Flygon>I'd be surprised if it went slower than the S-class, either way
22:10<Flygon>It's a direct evolution of the S-class
22:11<Flygon>Either way, New South Wales holds the record, with it's Sydney-Newcastle express... it went up to around 160km/h at points, if I remember correctly
22:11<Flygon>But my recollection is sketchy
22:11<Pinkbeast>I don't see why you wouldn't make 160km/h =~ 100mph - a 9F would do 90mph with 5' drivers
22:12<Flygon>(surprisingly, the record wasn't made with an AD60...)
22:12<Flygon>What exactly do you define as high speed running?
22:13<Flygon>I'm going by around 150-170km/h here
22:13<Pinkbeast>I was still in the mindset of having a crack at Mallard's 125mph.
22:13<Flygon>Oh
22:13<Flygon>Goodness no
22:13<Flygon>I doubt any VR locomotives could break that
22:13<Flygon>Diesel or Steam
22:14<Flygon>Barring a regeared A-class, but that would be hopelessly impractical
22:14<Pinkbeast>(Yes, 12_5_. :-P )
22:14<Flygon>(that, and all the A-class frames are now so worn out, it's considered dangerous to break 125km/h)
22:15<Flygon>But I have a lot of confidence for 160-170km/h
22:16<Flygon>Going by recollection, the only reason the S-class peaked @ 138km/h is because the driver didn't want to look suspiciously early to Albury (except for the fact that he was already 20 minutes early to Seymour...)
22:19*drac_boy whacks flygon with a pillow as I go to bed now
22:19<drac_boy>:P
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22:19<Flygon>Sleep w-
22:19<Flygon>.-.
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 25 00:00:41 2012