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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-05

---Logopened Wed Dec 05 00:00:56 2012
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04:34<@peter1138>yeah, steam is terrible
04:34<@peter1138>i hate not having to down town to purchase boxes which clutter my house
04:35<@peter1138>i hate not having to have the disk in the drive else the game won't run
04:38<DDR>peter1138: I hate how I can't just run the disk over with my chair when I'm done with it. It has a certain visceral feel to it...
04:46<@peter1138>i hate not opening the cd case to find the bits in the middle are broken and the disc falls out
05:14<NGC3982>Yes, that is the worst thing about jewel cases
05:14<NGC3982>Or, well. Jewel cases are the worst thing about jewel cases.
05:15<NGC3982>In my old CD collection (6-700 peices) barely has a jewel case that's not cracked in the front.
05:17<MNIM>tin cases rule
05:17<@peter1138>but then
05:17<@peter1138>why are dvd cases so large?
05:18<MNIM>because that way they can ask more money for it, duh
05:20<NGC3982>Well, They always hold up better, afaik.
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05:23<Bad_Brett>steam has some of the most intrusive DRM i've ever experienced. they have the power to shut down your account at any time, without warning... you can't play games without an internet connection... the collect data about your system and use it to shower you with ads
05:23<TinoDidriksen>Steam has an offline mode, and what ads?
05:23<Elukka>there's an ad (the
05:23<Elukka>*there's an ad (the update news) but you can turn it off
05:24<Elukka>and yes, offline mode
05:24<Elukka>plus steam games don't have to use steam as drm, though most do
05:24<Elukka>for many indie games it's just a delivery platform
05:24<Elukka>they'll run without steam too
05:26<SpComb>steam has many happy customers
05:26<TinoDidriksen>Steam is the best DRM - it adds loads of value without getting in my way. Synchronized save games, able to reinstall games any time...
05:26<SpComb>yeah, and it works
05:28<TinoDidriksen>And, unlike any other provider, Valve have a standing promise that if they ever go out of business, they'll release a de-Steamifier patch so people won't wind up unable to play the game just because their service is gone.
05:29<TinoDidriksen>Whereas e.g. EA decomissions servers for games a mere 1 year old...
05:29<Elukka>i'd rather that promise was binding
05:30<Elukka>but it's unlikely in the first place that they'd go down and if they did and still didn't do it i'm sure someone would crack it in a week
05:37<Bad_Brett>you may also remember this incident:
05:38<Bad_Brett>plus, i can no longer call myself owner of a game... it's more like a rental, because i'm not allowed to sell it or return it if i don't like it
05:38<TinoDidriksen>So you don't own any Sony products either, I assume...
05:39<TinoDidriksen>They were the target of the worst such intrusion and use rootkits and lots worse than Steam.
05:39<Bad_Brett>yes, but they had to remove that, didn't they?
05:40<TinoDidriksen>So, assuming your principles are strong, you naturally have zero Sony products.
05:40<Bad_Brett>because it was considered illegal
05:40<Bad_Brett>it's not a matter of principles
05:42<TinoDidriksen>What is it then? If you want to own a game, many modern console games are out of the question for you, since they're adding online-only and first-sale-only features.
05:42<Bad_Brett>games that used to be a work of art are now dumbed versions to attract the mass-audience... intrusive DRM, release day DLC, rushed releases because they can force people to install the most recent patch etc.
05:42<Elukka>you're generally not allowed to return opened games anyway
05:42<Elukka>selling is a point, doesn't matter to me though since i've never sold my old games
05:42<Elukka>and because they had competent encryption unlike sony, nothing came of that hack
05:43<Elukka>no passwords or credit card inforamation was accessed by anyone
05:45<Bad_Brett>i'll never buy a game that forces me to install third-party software on my computer, that collect data without my knowledge, so they can show me ads of other games "i might like" and make DLC's that they know will sell well
05:45<Elukka>what do you mean by collecting data to show you ads?
05:45<Elukka>steam doesn't even do targeted advertising
05:46<Elukka>ads are constrained to the store page which you might want to access but don't have to
05:46<Bad_Brett>steam collects tons of data
05:46<TinoDidriksen>So play in Offline can't even get achievements when in that.
05:46<Bad_Brett>about my system, which games i play, how often i play them... some guy even found a list of his Kazaa-files in the steam folder
05:47<Elukka>do you mean how it tracks hours played?
05:47<Bad_Brett>yes... and graphic cards, empty harddrive space etc.
05:47<TinoDidriksen>The hardware survey is opt-in.
05:47<Bad_Brett>and offline mode doesn't always work.
05:47<TinoDidriksen>They pop up a box asking if they can please do a hardware survey.
05:48<Bad_Brett>and the thing that you basically buy an empty disc in the game store
05:48<Bad_Brett>and still have to download the game
05:49<Bad_Brett>which will take forever when their servers are overloaded
05:49<Elukka>which game has done that?
05:49<Bad_Brett>remember when Ubisoft's servers went down during the holidays :)
05:49<Bad_Brett>though I agree that they're even worse
05:49<Elukka>the only reason i buy physical copies of games anymore is because steam has terrible prices for new products and i can get them cheaper elsewhere
05:50<Elukka>there are physical copies of games that require steam (which i think is silly) but the ones i have have always installed from the disc rather than downloading anything
05:51<Elukka>well, they'll download patches
05:51<Bad_Brett>i think it's really wrong to let the customers serve as beta-testers so they can rush the release
05:51<Bad_Brett>which is often the case nowadays
05:52<Bad_Brett>they release several patches the very first week
05:52<TinoDidriksen>Blame publishers for that.
05:52<Bad_Brett>yes of course
05:53<Bad_Brett>game developers are slaves
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05:53<Bad_Brett>time for a nap
05:53<Elukka>it's almost like you have an endless reservoir of half-informed opinions and when people correct you just move to the next one
05:54<Elukka>oh. not endless :P
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05:54<@peter1138>anyone play lfs?
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05:55<@peter1138>live for speed
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06:37<V453000>do I understand it correctly that if I set cargo_age_period to 1, then the value of the cargo will step down every game tick?
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06:56<@peter1138>i could tell you
06:56<@peter1138>i haven't a clue :p
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07:10<NGC3982>I guess most settings that defines an arbitrary time period, does so in ticks
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07:11<NGC3982>V453000: "This property specifies after how many ticks cargo is aged. Default value is 185. 74 ticks is equal to 1 day. "
07:11<V453000>where do you think I read it from
07:12<NGC3982>As far as i can see, that should answer the question.
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07:18<NGC3982>Since the Wiki does not state what happends during parameter under a day (74), one would assume it's simply the same thing.
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11:22<@Belugas>hey sir :)
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24784 /trunk/src/lang (3 files in 2 dirs) (2012-12-05 18:45:21 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>basque - 778 changes by lutxiketa
13:45<@DorpsGek>czech - 21 changes by Eskymak
13:45<@DorpsGek>german - 1 changes by planetmaker
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13:57<@Terkhen>wow :P
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14:06<hnk>is there any "best" set of trains and things like that?
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14:07<hnk>I think I tried the UKRS+ set but my coal/iron-ore transports were soo damn slow it killed my fun
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14:07<frosch123>the only one which is heading to be "objective" best is "nuts"
14:07<frosch123>all others only try to be "subjective" best :)
14:08<frosch123>if you want to experience gameplay, you might indeed want to check out nuts
14:08<@Terkhen>is "objective best" even possible WRT train sets? :P
14:09<hnk>I want real stuff in my game
14:09<hnk>kind of :D
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14:10<Wolf01>hello o/
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>hnk: you could start the game at a later date, when higher speeds are available
14:14<FLHerne>hnk: There seem to be a lot of people keen on the Dutch and DB sets
14:14*FLHerne is a UKRS2 lover
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14:22<NGC3982>UKRS2 and FIRS!
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14:34<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24785 /trunk/src (6 files in 3 dirs) (2012-12-05 19:34:25 UTC)
14:34<@DorpsGek>-Add: Various methods to open the OSK. (based on patch by Eagle_rainbow)
14:34<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24786 /trunk/src (10 files in 4 dirs) (2012-12-05 19:34:45 UTC)
14:34<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Add SettingsProfile enum for difficulty profiles and highscore tables.
14:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24787 /trunk/src (3 files) (2012-12-05 19:35:09 UTC)
14:35<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Unify checks for editability of settings.
14:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24788 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2012-12-05 19:35:38 UTC)
14:35<@DorpsGek>-Change: Detach script settings from difficulty settings. Always allow changing all script settings without setting difficulty to custom.
14:36<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24789 /trunk/src (9 files in 6 dirs) (2012-12-05 19:36:04 UTC)
14:36<@DorpsGek>-Add: Separate setting to control the default settings of newly added scripts and random AIs.
14:36<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24790 /trunk/src (78 files in 8 dirs) (2012-12-05 19:36:41 UTC)
14:36<@DorpsGek>-Remove: Classic difficulty profiles.
14:37<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24791 /trunk/src (71 files in 7 dirs) (2012-12-05 19:37:15 UTC)
14:37<@DorpsGek>-Remove: Difficulty settings window.
14:38<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24792 /trunk/src (58 files in 4 dirs) (2012-12-05 19:38:44 UTC)
14:38<@DorpsGek>-Add: Readd difficulty settings to advanced settings unless they are already present in other settings windows.
14:39<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24793 /trunk/src (49 files in 3 dirs) (2012-12-05 19:39:48 UTC)
14:39<@DorpsGek>-Change: Move script opcodes setting from Economy to AI settings.
14:40<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24794 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2012-12-05 19:40:07 UTC)
14:40<@DorpsGek>-Change: Unify capitalisation in advanced settings dropdowns.
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14:58<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24795 trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp (2012-12-05 19:58:38 UTC)
14:58<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r24789): Unfinished patch.
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16:02<Stimrol>I have a question about FIRS, maybe a bug, is this the right place to ask it?
16:02<@Terkhen>depends on andythenorth being around or not
16:03<Stimrol>nope he is not :)
16:03<@Terkhen>you can ask about your issue here, many people uses FIRS
16:04<@Terkhen>but if it is a bug, you should ask at the forum thread or at FIRS bug tracker to prevent it from getting forgotten :)
16:04<@Alberth> or look in the bug tracker of FIRS :)
16:04<Stimrol>either FIRS itself or FIRS combined with 1.2.3 has problem.... the freights seem to have a thing of only lasting a few years then crash or completely close up
16:04<@Alberth>'crash' ?
16:05<Stimrol>I was having this discussion with one about FIRS always closeing down
16:05<frosch123>i thought firs industries never close?
16:05<frosch123>what version of firs are you using?
16:05<frosch123>i hope nothing ancient :)
16:06<Stimrol>there is a setting in firs you can control if it can close or not
16:06<@Alberth>andy may have reverted that decision; he changed his mind about industry closing iirc
16:06<Stimrol>no up to date version
16:07<@Alberth>perhaps it is mentioned in an already closed ticket?
16:07<Stimrol>there are setting "allow primary (and secondary) industries to close"
16:08<Stimrol>probably just best to check the bug list and maybe post it
16:09<@Alberth>I still don't understand what the problem is tbh
16:09<@Alberth>you mean freights at station disappearing, or something else?
16:10<Stimrol>the problem is that the station closes down very frequently even if they are in full service
16:11<Stimrol>eg my oil trains was worth four 5-tiles trains with steam ... switching to diesel was more or less same ... but only 2-3 years later I had to scrap down to only two trains ... then soon it closed up for good ...
16:11<@Alberth>stations do not close down, you have to explicitly remove them
16:12<Stimrol>there are setting "allow primary (and secondary) industries to close"
16:12<Stimrol>in the firs parametters
16:12<@Alberth>industries and stations are two different things
16:13<@Alberth>ok, industries thus
16:13<@Alberth>is there a setting about station rating in your FIRS too?
16:13<@Alberth>did you make sure you provided good service (eg have always a train loading)?
16:14<@Alberth>wat rating was the station at?
16:14<Stimrol>yes serviced industries, so I was wondering that t
16:14<Stimrol>sorry delete last line
16:14<Stimrol>yes there is, this is version 0.7.5
16:14<@Alberth>sorry, your last line has already been broadcasted all over the Internet :)
16:16<Stimrol>it was like 70% all the time
16:16<frosch123>i doubt firs guarentees increase depending on service
16:17<@Alberth>I don't know the default value for the station rating setting in 0.7.5, but in my version, the default is to use the OpenTTD ratings
16:17<Stimrol>what I am talking about is this is frequent, not only once. Then I would not be talking about it. This is way more often that without FIRS.
16:20<Stimrol>At least I found this a little strange so I just wanted to ask about before makeing a bug report, and maybe also to find out a little more :)
16:23<@Alberth>bug reports for ancient versions are not of much use probably
16:23<Stimrol>ancient, but this is the one official in newgrf
16:24<@Alberth>well, don't let me stop you :)
16:25<@peter1138>FIRS 0.7.5
16:25<Stimrol>no I just thought this was the newest 0.7.5
16:25<@Alberth>but perhaps it is good to get some hard data
16:26<Stimrol>I am just thankful for you help and discussion about this Alberth, always good to get information :)
16:26<@Alberth>ie "frequent" is difficult to judge
16:27<@Alberth>you can make a save game, and use that for measuring
16:27<Stimrol>where is a newer version that 0.7.5 availible?
16:28<@Alberth>Stimrol: there are nightlies, but I don't know whether they will work in 1.2.3
16:28<Stimrol>I will see what I will do, but thanks
16:28<@Alberth>1.2.3 is already 8 months old
16:29<@peter1138>it is? o_O
16:29<frosch123>1.2 branch is 11 months old :)
16:29<@Alberth>wow, even older :)
16:29<@peter1138>Latest release in stable is 1.2.3, released on 2012-10-31 21:39 UTC.
16:29<@peter1138>seems not 8 months
16:29<@Alberth>and FIRS is always fast to use the latest features
16:30*Alberth slaps peter1138
16:30<@Alberth>you should know better :)
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16:30*Stimrol comforts peter1138
16:30<@peter1138>probably just missing some context
16:31<Stimrol>What do you mean by 8 months, you mean 1.2.3 is 8 month because is started nighties right after 1.2.2
16:31<@Alberth>Stimrol: FYI, 11 months ago was the last update from trunk
16:31<@Alberth>all new features since that time are not in the 1.2 series, and thus also not in 1.2.3
16:32<@Alberth>1.2.x are just bugfix releases
16:33<Stimrol>that is right from that viewpoint
16:33<@Alberth>(10:42:10 PM) Stimrol: What do you mean by 8 months, you mean 1.2.3 is 8 month because is started nighties right after 1.2.2 <-- no, the last nighly for all 1.2 release was somewhere in Spring
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16:35<Stimrol>Yes I understand, and you are probably then playing what shall be 1.3
16:36<@Alberth>yes :)
16:37<@Alberth>basically a very recent nightly, except I build the program myself
16:37<Stimrol>and is that mostly tested at openttdcoop?
16:39<@Alberth>I don't know whether there are still MP games with nightlies at openttdcoop
16:39<V453000>of course
16:39<frosch123>but usually not very up-to-date nightlies :p
16:39<Sturmi>never have been :D
16:39<@Alberth>oh, there are :)
16:39<Stimrol>look like they are playing this one --> r24783
16:39<V453000>frosch123: not every night updated, but rather up to date :)
16:40<V453000>r24673 currently
16:40<V453000>24783 is just the nightly server
16:40<@Alberth>@calc 24795-24673
16:40<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 122
16:40<frosch123>@calc 24795 - 24673
16:40<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 122
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16:40<@Alberth>haha :)
16:40<V453000>but both main servers run 24673 atm
16:40<V453000>could update that
16:41<frosch123>i am impressed how wolf01 could fit a night inbetween thee
16:41<Stimrol>this shaked up the conversation :D
16:41<@Alberth>tight timing, that Wolf :)
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17:17<__ln___>Happy fourth of July!
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18:16<@Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Thu Dec 06 00:00:58 2012