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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-09

---Logopened Sun Dec 09 00:00:00 2012
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03:46<@Terkhen>good morning
03:56<Flygon>menta
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04:18<NGC3982>peter1138: Re: Discussion about placing additional banks in the same town, with OpenGFX+.
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04:20<NGC3982>peter1138: For some reason, i still get the "Too close to another industry" when trying to fund a new bank in the same town. I wonder what purpose that "You need 150 houses or more for more banks" sign actually had.
04:21<@peter1138>what?
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04:26<@Terkhen>NGC3982: IIRC OpenGFX+ Industries does not change bank building restrictions, besides a setting allowing valuables banks to be built on map generation
04:26<@Terkhen>so they should behave as they do in vanilla OpenTTD
04:29<NGC3982>I see.
04:29<NGC3982>Since, i was presented with a sign basiclly saying "you need to make this town bigger to build more than one bank"
04:29<NGC3982>Wich was a bit confusing
04:30<@Alberth>Terkhen: but there are no "need 150 houses for another bank" strings in openttd lang/english.txt
04:30<@Terkhen>hmm... strange :)
04:30<@Terkhen>let me check OpenGFX+ Industries code
04:31<@Alberth>line 16 lang/english.lng? :)
04:31<@Alberth>STR_ERR_TOWN_TOO_SMALL :... this town is too small for having {COMMA} industries of this type (there can be only one of these industries for every {COMMA} houses)
04:32<@Alberth>NGC3982: ^^ that error?
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04:32<NGC3982>Yes, that sounds familiar.
04:32<@Alberth>hi andy
04:32<@Terkhen>ooh, I remember now
04:33<@Terkhen>in OpenGFX+ Industries, we changed the restriction "only one per town" to "only one per every X houses in the town", where X is a constant defined in OpenGFX+ Industries which happens to be 150
04:33<NGC3982>Oh, ok.
04:34<@Terkhen>this was made to allow, for example, delivering water to a big city if the existing water tower is too close to the center of the city
04:34<@Terkhen>but it does not lift the "too close" restriction
04:34<andythenorth>bonjour
04:34<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
04:34<andythenorth>are there any good truck grfs?
04:35<@Alberth>for my definition of 'good', yes
04:38<NGC3982>Terkhen: So, i should be able to place more banks in the same town?
04:39<@Terkhen>NGC3982: as long as they are far enough from each other, yes
04:39<@Terkhen>and the town has more than 150 houses :P
04:39<NGC3982>Yes, i see.
04:40<NGC3982>The distance seems to be the problem, then.
04:40<NGC3982>(For me, in this game, so to speak).
04:44<NGC3982>Terkhen: It's a nice feature. :)
04:44<@Terkhen>:)
04:47<andythenorth>which feature is more important for RVs? Auto-refit, xor variable number of trailers?
04:47<andythenorth>they're not orthogonal :P
04:47<@Terkhen>IMO autorefit
04:48<NGC3982>Terkhen: Is there a specific number of tiles between the industries, by the way?
04:48<NGC3982>Oh, i worked it out.
04:48<NGC3982>Never mind.
04:49<@Terkhen>ok, I was checking if it was in "our" code or in OpenTTD code :P
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05:00<NGC3982>Ah, yes.
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05:06<Eddi|zuHause>oh the lovely snow outside and the lovely warmth innside :)
05:12<andythenorth>hmm
05:12<andythenorth>snow
05:12*andythenorth adds more snow
05:15*Alberth adds warmth
05:15<@Alberth>perhaps also a sprinkle of christ-mas?
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05:50*andythenorth finishes converting FIRS to python
05:50<andythenorth>for now
05:50<Dr_Tan>finish bandit
05:50<Dr_Tan>and then make a buss set
05:50<InducTrackerOTTD>NGRFs can be coded in python?
05:51<andythenorth>BANDIT is spiked
05:51<andythenorth>InducTrackerOTTD: yes
05:51<Dr_Tan>spiked?
05:51<andythenorth>on hold, not abandoned, but very stuck
05:51<TrueBrain>in a jail?
05:52<Dr_Tan>you told me this before
05:52<Dr_Tan>but I forgot why
05:52<InducTrackerOTTD>Crap, I might get to have my grf flavours after all!
05:52<andythenorth>TrueBrain: in jail
05:52<Dr_Tan>why?
05:52-!-Dr_Tan is now known as Nat_aS
05:52<andythenorth>Nat_aS: because I can't figure out the set design
05:52<andythenorth>I have plenty of code, but nothing that makes a good newgrf
05:53<Nat_aS>well HEQS is the only RV set that dosn't suck
05:53<Nat_aS>I just wish it had trucks and busses
05:53<Nat_aS>transporting goods and such via tractor seems strange
05:53<TrueBrain>if it doesnt have trucks and busses, what RVs does it have?
05:53<andythenorth>HEQS has a significant bug that I should fix
05:53<Nat_aS>tractors
05:53<andythenorth>I should pull the current HEQS from bananas
05:54<Nat_aS>Heavy EquiQupment Set
05:54<TrueBrain>ah, I see
05:54<Nat_aS>it's got tractors, and large trucks
05:54<Nat_aS>but not highway trucks
05:54<Nat_aS>or busses
05:54<andythenorth>it also fails to comply with the newgrf spec correctly
05:55<Nat_aS>I don't care, it's the perfect grf graphics and balance wise
05:55<Nat_aS>Every veichcle looks intresting and has it's own niche mechanicaly
05:55<Nat_aS>we need trainsets that are that nice
05:55<InducTrackerOTTD>Cause I'm dying to try playing with something like HEQS except without the huge variety of vehicles. More kinda like the Very Large Ships GRF
05:56<InducTrackerOTTD>Modyfying the specs range rather than spectrum density
05:56<andythenorth>InducTrackerOTTD: trivial with nml
05:56<InducTrackerOTTD>Cool
05:56<andythenorth>you don't really need python wrapper to do that
05:56<Nat_aS>hmmm?
05:56<@Alberth>also, the set is open source
05:57<InducTrackerOTTD>I just dunno anything about NML or any of the other openttd extension languages
05:57<andythenorth>...
05:57<andythenorth>do the nml tutorial?
05:58<InducTrackerOTTD>I'd have to track it down first, I'm currently discovering wiki.openttd has nothing on the topic
05:58<InducTrackerOTTD>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Main
05:58<InducTrackerOTTD>There it is
06:00<NGC3982>This bandit thing feels interesting. What is it, and where can I read more?
06:00<InducTrackerOTTD>I presume NGRF thingy is a system for both TTDP and OTTD
06:02<@Alberth>NGC3982: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/bandit
06:02<InducTrackerOTTD>Oh well, I forgot python is synonymous with python2
06:04<NGC3982>Ah. Trucks. ..It seems.
06:05<@peter1138>herp & derp
06:05<andythenorth>NGC3982: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=46297
06:06<NGC3982>I have been noticing the discussions about alcohol.
06:07<NGC3982>Neat.
06:09<andythenorth>one solution to BANDIT: no articulated trucks
06:13<@Alberth>yeah, discussions about alcohol do attract attention :p
06:14<MNIM>alcohol?
06:14<@peter1138>beer?
06:14<TrueBrain>BOOZEEEEE
06:14<andythenorth>pub
06:14<TrueBrain>you paying?
06:16<andythenorth>split it
06:16<TrueBrain>okay, I will be there in .. euh ...
06:16<TrueBrain>6 hours?
06:16<TrueBrain>4 possibly? :P
06:17<TrueBrain>greatly depends which pub, I guess
06:22<andythenorth>random google search: this one? http://www.dedrieringen.nl
06:22<TrueBrain>that is rater random yes :P
06:24<TrueBrain>but we have no pubs here
06:24<TrueBrain>England has pubs
06:24<TrueBrain>we have ....... bars
06:26<MNIM>I say we should go here: http://www.inyourpocket.com/Netherlands/Utrecht/By-Night-Utrecht-English/Bars-Utrecht-English/Kafe-Belgie_64743v
06:31-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f41e4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
06:33<@Alberth>hi
06:34<frosch123>moin albert :)
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06:38<andythenorth>so the thing is, I'm not sure rv-wagons solves all the problems
06:38<andythenorth>it allows variable length RVs
06:38<andythenorth>but there are new problems with compatibility of trailers to lead vehicles
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06:42<Rubidium>MNIM: going to the Netherlands to go to Belgium?
06:45<frosch123>does belgium still exist? i thought it was annaxed by netherlands and france
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06:46<Rubidium>ugh... no...
06:46<Rubidium>I'd say: give Limburg to Belgium/Flanders ;)
06:47<MNIM>Rubidium: they have more than just belgian beers there.
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06:48<MNIM>specifically, they have Jever.
06:49<@Terkhen>andythenorth: keep it simple :P
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>"... da könnt ja Jever kommen"
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07:10<InducTrackerOTTD>Anyone recall the randomization span length for new vehicle model appearance?
07:12<@Terkhen>InducTrackerOTTD: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles#Date_of_introduction
07:14<InducTrackerOTTD>Terkhen: in the default set =\
07:14<InducTrackerOTTD>ahh, 511 days
07:14<@Terkhen>that's valid for the default set too
07:15<@Terkhen>it is describing the default OpenTTD behavior, regardless of how the introduction date was defined
07:16<InducTrackerOTTD>I should take some time to splice that data into the http://wiki.openttd.org/Vehicles article
07:16<@Terkhen>good :)
07:16<InducTrackerOTTD>Perhaps tomorrow =p
07:18<InducTrackerOTTD>Darn, another thing I wonder is if I can fetch the r##### number of version installed within the game somehow
07:18<InducTrackerOTTD>Doesn't seem to be a version command in the console
07:20<@Terkhen>such command would be tricky for stables, because they are branched at a given revision number but they still may get new commits when backports are made
07:20<@Terkhen>for nightlies, the revision number appears on the title of the main window when you start the game
07:20<frosch123>maybe you can try "gamelog"
07:21<InducTrackerOTTD>Hmm, changelog seems to suggest 1.2.0 was frozen around r24108
07:21<InducTrackerOTTD>Good to know, considering the third point in the section Terkhen linked
07:21<frosch123>1.2 was branched in early february
07:22<@Terkhen>with regard to that section, r16929 is... ancient :P
07:22<InducTrackerOTTD>branched?
07:22<@Alberth>copied :)
07:22<@Terkhen>InducTrackerOTTD: http://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_OpenTTD_versions#Branch_or_SVN_Branch
07:22<InducTrackerOTTD>Yeah, I don't have a frame of reference for r values well
07:22<frosch123>http://wiki.openttd.org/Branch#Branch_or_SVN_Branch
07:22<InducTrackerOTTD>I don't play svn
07:23<frosch123>he, tk was faster :)
07:23<@Terkhen>if you want to know what is a branch, and why a given revision number may correspond to nightlies or to stables, you need to know at least that small bit :P
07:24<@Alberth>InducTrackerOTTD: but version control is so very useful, even for your own data
07:24<InducTrackerOTTD>I don't have data
07:24<InducTrackerOTTD>And I've been too lasy to git-wrap my goodies
07:26<InducTrackerOTTD>Back to scenario editing, yay!
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08:54<andythenorth> what does bananas do when I increment min. compatible version for a newgrf?
08:55<andythenorth>wrt old games using older version
08:55<Ammler>the versions are just for the download filter
08:56<Ammler>saves load specific grfs
08:56<andythenorth>interesting
08:56<andythenorth>so openttd doesn't use the min. compatible version?
08:56<Ammler>well, afaik :-)
08:56<Ammler>why not?
08:57<Ammler>openttd uses the versions, but saves don't
08:57<andythenorth>hmm
08:57<andythenorth>confusing
08:57<andythenorth>nvm
08:57<andythenorth>I'll just bump the version anyway
08:57<Ammler>if you download a newgrf via ingame service, you get the filter
08:58<Ammler>if you download for a save, you download independent from filter
08:58<andythenorth>ok, that makes sense
08:59<andythenorth>should I put FIRS 0.8.0-test-2 on bananas or not?
08:59<andythenorth>I never found a good answer to distributing test grfs :)
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09:00<FLHerne>andythenorth: What it needs is a devzone client too
09:00<FLHerne>That would be rather neat :-)
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09:00<andythenorth>there is more than one universally available for most operating systems
09:01<andythenorth>works over http
09:01<andythenorth>supports listing of grfs
09:01<andythenorth>and browsing old versions
09:01<andythenorth>some of them include a download manager too
09:01<FLHerne>My bash-scripted wget works ok, but integrated would be nice
09:03<andythenorth>ach, what can go wrong? I'll just stick it on bananas
09:04<Ammler>andythenorth: create a 2nd entry for firs-dev or something
09:05<andythenorth>same grfid
09:05<Ammler>afaik, the version tags do not work to keep 2 versions available
09:05<frosch123>yeah, firs-dev would suck
09:05<Ammler>same id does not work
09:05<frosch123>different grfids break any compatibility
09:06<frosch123>but sadly uploading a new version with higher min_version makes older versions of the grf unavailable
09:07<andythenorth>I am about to do that
09:07<frosch123>so, clients which do not meet the min_version cannot download anything :p
09:07<andythenorth>min_version grf or min_version ottd?
09:07<andythenorth>ach
09:07<andythenorth>I'll just distribute via forums
09:07<andythenorth>simple is better
09:07<Ammler>why not simply release 0.8.8 instead a beta version
09:07<frosch123>the ingame content list displays only the newest entry, and only if it is compatible
09:08<frosch123>if the newest one is not compatbile, it does not show any older
09:08<Ammler>then do bugfix releases
09:09<Ammler>do people behave different, if your beta is buggy or your stable is buggy?
09:09<Ammler>ah indeed, they payed for stable version ;-)
09:10<Ammler>also is 0.8 still compatible with 0.7?
09:12<andythenorth>nope
09:12<andythenorth>not at all
09:12<Ammler>so a new bananas entry would not hurt, would it?
09:12<andythenorth>and 0.8.0-test-2 probably won't be compatible with the 0.8.0 release
09:13<andythenorth>bananas won't allow same grfid
09:13<andythenorth>and changing grfid is verboten
09:13<Ammler>why do you need same id?
09:13<andythenorth>because I get yelled at if I don't
09:13<frosch123>different ids definitely hurt
09:13<Ammler>frosch123: if it is incompatilbe anyway?
09:13<andythenorth>it's all a morass of different compatibility-assurance mechanisms :P
09:13<frosch123>who said it is incompatible?
09:13<andythenorth>I would like a release manager
09:13<frosch123>also who said that the next version will be incompatbile to the beta?
09:14<Ammler>well, not firs-dev, but firs2 or firs-0.8 or whatever
09:14<frosch123>changing the grfid just to allow a beta on bananas is seriously the most stupid thing one could do
09:15<Ammler>I just agreed above :-)
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11:48<andythenorth>I need to play a FIRS game, to test the release
11:48<andythenorth>or maybe someone else could do that? o_O
11:52<@Terkhen>shouldn't you test releases before making them? :P
11:52<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24804 /trunk (8 files in 2 dirs) (2012-12-09 16:52:43 UTC)
11:52<@DorpsGek>-Add: Separate subdirectory for screenshots.
11:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24805 /trunk/src (screenshot.cpp screenshot.h) (2012-12-09 16:53:01 UTC)
11:53<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Refactor determination of screenshot viewport for world screenshots.
11:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24806 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt toolbar_gui.cpp) (2012-12-09 16:53:21 UTC)
11:53<@DorpsGek>-Feature [FS#3148]: Ask for confirmation before creating giant screenshots.
11:53<andythenorth>Terkhen: strange idea :P
11:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24807 trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp (2012-12-09 16:53:41 UTC)
11:53<@DorpsGek>-Add [FS#2820]: Enable usage of 'companies' console command also in singleplayer.
11:54<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24808 /trunk/src (depot_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp) (2012-12-09 16:54:02 UTC)
11:54<@DorpsGek>-Feature(ette) [FS#4458]: When share-cloning vehicles don't open the vehicle window of the new vehicle. The only reasonable thing to do with the new vehicle is to start it, which can also be done via the depot GUI.
11:54<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24809 trunk/src/engine_gui.cpp (2012-12-09 16:54:23 UTC)
11:54<@DorpsGek>-Feature(ette) [FS#2632]: Consider engine preview windows always sticky, so non-shift mass-closure does not affect them.
11:55<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24810 /trunk/src (6 files in 2 dirs) (2012-12-09 16:55:03 UTC)
11:55<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Make engine preview offers more robust wrt. changes in the company ranking.
11:55<FLHerne>andythenorth: Did you find what caused that annoying CHIPS bug ever?
11:55<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24811 /trunk/src (engine.cpp engine_gui.cpp) (2012-12-09 16:55:21 UTC)
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11:55<@DorpsGek>-Add: Close engine preview window when another client accepts it.
11:55<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24812 trunk/src/engine.cpp (2012-12-09 16:55:38 UTC)
11:55<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Close pending preview windows when the engine is introduced to everyone.
11:55<andythenorth>FLHerne: no, it's beyond me
11:55<andythenorth>needs Yexo ;)
11:56<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24813 trunk/src/engine.cpp (2012-12-09 16:55:57 UTC)
11:56<@DorpsGek>-Change: Offer engine previews only to companies which actually use the particular vehicle-type/cargo-type combination.
11:58<Superuser>holy shit frosch is on a roll
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12:08<@Alberth>your comment scared him into stopping :p
12:09<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24814 trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt (2012-12-09 17:09:24 UTC)
12:09<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r24810): Update AI regression.
12:11<frosch123>that one was the bonus :p
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>haven't had that in a while
12:19<frosch123>at least i was faster than the farm with noticing :p
12:26<andythenorth>hmm
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12:26<andythenorth>I need someone to take on FIRS economies as a project
12:26<andythenorth>all code is done
12:27<andythenorth>even if I had the interest, I don't have any time to devise + test combinations of industries + cargos
12:28<andythenorth>Dan suggested these http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3362/PossibleBasicSchemes.png
12:29<andythenorth>"I need..." has a low chance of getting the result though :)
12:29<frosch123>"i want" ?
12:30<andythenorth>"je voudrais"
12:31<andythenorth>three simple economies (one per climate) suited for playing MP NoCarGoal or SV
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12:43<andythenorth>hmm
12:43<andythenorth>oberhümer suggests that FIRS primary production boost should just be a linear function of delivered supplies
12:44<andythenorth>so they're not really primary any more
12:44<andythenorth>just a variant of secondary, with a base production amount
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24815 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2012-12-09 18:45:17 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 2 changes by Rubidium
13:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 2 changes by Terkhen
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14:10<NGC3982>Evening, gents.
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16:06<andythenorth>bye
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16:36<@Terkhen>good night
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16:45*Zuu celibrates sucessfully adding the Ship AI to Beginner Tutorial.
16:46<Zuu>It took more time than it might sonud :-)
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16:51<Rubidium>how hard can it be to add an AI to a scenario? ;)
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16:52<NGC3982>\o/
16:54<@planetmaker>ShipAI? That must be new
16:54<NGC3982>It sounds nice.
16:54<@planetmaker>indeed
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17:08<Zuu>Rubidium: That part is the easy one. The more time consuming part is that the AI appeared to not have been tested at all.
17:09<NGC3982>I'm rather befuddled on how to actually increase industry production in OpenGFX+.
17:09<NGC3982>:(
17:09<Zuu>Let see. Time to introduce a 3-pack bananas entry :-)
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17:28<frosch123>night
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17:41<Zuu>There we go. The ship chapter of Beginner Tutorial can now be completed by an AI (select lorry chapter without completing the ships chapter first)
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18:41<__ln___>"Fred Brooks subsequently wrote a witty and incisive book describing his experiences with OS/360. While it would be impossible to summarize the book here, suffice it to say that the cover shows a herd of prehistoric beasts stuck in a tar pit."
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19:00<Nat_aS>kik
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19:09<Superuser>http://translator.openttd.org/en/trunk/el_GR/STR_CHEATS_WARNING < -- needs a full stop at the end as it's a dialogue box.
19:09<Superuser>the original string I mean
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---Logclosed Mon Dec 10 00:00:02 2012