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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-10

---Logopened Mon Dec 10 00:00:02 2012
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03:16<dihedral>greetings
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03:24<DDR>GOOD DAY, MY FINE dihedral. HOW ARE YOU??
03:25<dihedral>i feel a little hammerd, by uppercase characters
03:25<DDR>My personality is intoxicating to you?
03:25<Supercheese>Ouch, the old Uppercase Uppercut
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03:36<dihedral>sorry for being strait out, but the only thing that has to do with personality is the lack thereof
03:40<@peter1138>http://i.imgur.com/2bYI7.jpg
03:42<CornishPasty>peter1138: Evil!
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03:47<dihedral>peter1138, done ;-)
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04:14<MNIM>peter, you basterd.
04:14<MNIM>my poor eyes!
04:15<MNIM>You're not supposed to torture my eyes with that evil image yet until my coffee/tea intake has reached lethal regions yet
04:15<Eddi|zuHause>it's actually fairly easy
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04:21<MNIM>it's easy. but not on the eyes
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04:22<MNIM>I already am tired enough to see everything wave and distort sometimes, no need to induce it. >.>
04:25<@peter1138>heh
04:25<SpComb>tried to follow a lecture today without my eyeglasses
04:25<SpComb>it was amusing, same kind of feeling
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06:27<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/44DNR.png
06:27<NGC3982>Haven't seen that before. "We made"? :D
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06:59<Alver>Huzzah. Hello there - I've built openttd on HP-UX (11.31, IA64) but it segfaults upon running. This is the (not very enlightening) gdb output: http://ziff.soleus.nu/openttd.gdb.txt
07:00<Alver>Does anyone have any pointers where to poke for debugging?
07:01<__ln___>fascinating.. how much do such machines cost?
07:01<Alver>Depending on specs and your luck, couple hundred euros.
07:01<Alver>Mine wasn't that expensive :)
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07:02<__ln___>alright.. do they still sell new ones?
07:02<Alver>IA64? Sure. Plenty.
07:02<Alver>Just not workstations (mine is the last of that short range)
07:03<+michi_cc>I once tried to build OpenTTD on an old PA-RISC machine. I gave up after encountering syntax errors in a system header :(
07:03<Alver>I added shared object libs to the gdb file mentioned above
07:04<Alver>michi_cc: I have PARISC around too... should build just fine :)
07:04<Alver>I'd really love to get it running on this machine, though. I was *very* happy it compiled with only two very minor tweaks, but now it just bails.
07:06<+michi_cc>Not sure which HP-UX version it had, but it was an older one. Maybe it would have worked with the commercial HP C/C++ compiler, but that wasn't available so I had to do with what the interwebz provided.
07:06<Alver>11.11, likely. No gfx support in 11.23 on PA.
07:06<Alver>I'm using gcc (4.7.0).
07:07<Alver>I'm not really used to debugging though (not to mention debugging C++)... any ideas? :/
07:15<__ln___>i guess you should rebuild openttd with debug symbols or something
07:15<Alver>__ln___: that *is* with debug symbols, for all I know...
07:16<Alver>CFLAGS+= -g, not stripped
07:16<__ln___>i see
07:18<Alver>I guess I'll rebuild with --enable-debug=3 to configure
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>Alver: not sure what you're trying to debug, but "make run_gdb" should start the debugger
07:23<Alver>Eddi|zuHause: I'm building with pkgsrc, so that's another layer inbetween
07:25<Alver>I'm just wondering what is causing this segfault
07:25<Alver>I don't mind looking for workarounds or fixes, but I haven't got the faintest clue what this backtrace means
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>segfaults are nasty, indeed
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08:50<Alver>a-HA!
08:51<Alver>Can anyone look at this: http://ziff.soleus.nu/openttd.debug.txt
08:52<Alver>"Pid 13480 was killed due to failure in writing the signal context - possible stack overflow."
08:56<blathijs>Alver: Perhaps you can fiddle with stack size using ulimit?
09:00<Alver>Hmmm, good point
09:01<Alver>blathijs: I already seem to have an 8MB stack
09:02<Alver>I'll check if upping to 16M is possible.
09:02<NGC3982>Modern world problem #1
09:03<NGC3982>On a train, craving Openttd on my laptop
09:03<NGC3982>No power, and no power outlets.
09:03<NGC3982>:-(
09:04<__ln___>No power outlets, what kind of barbaric trains do you have in Sweden?
09:04<NGC3982>The regional trains are a bit old.
09:05<NGC3982>A fair tad.
09:06<NGC3982>Actually, I think these ones are the oldest ones still in use in the south.
09:06<NGC3982>Still used*
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09:08<NGC3982>It was. X12
09:15<Flygon>How can any European regional train lack 240v outlets? D:
09:15<Flygon>Even regional ones here have 240v outlets!... just bring a surge protector @_@
09:16<Alver>blathijs: can't up the stack size any further than 8M.
09:23<Flygon>G'niht
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>oh no... it's the "cant read the forum anymore" time...
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, both regional and long distance trains are very slowly refitted with power outlets
09:34*NGC3982 found an outlet.
09:34<NGC3982>ONE.
09:34<NGC3982>Well, these trains used to run short runs in Malmö
09:35<NGC3982>And was not designed for traveling long enough routes, making power outlets a resonable upgrade.
09:35<NGC3982>Although, i guess they will be refitted when they visit their first service.
09:36<NGC3982>Trying to play on my dedicated 2048^2 map via 3G was not a fruitful idea.
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09:38<V453000>hm, I guess there isnt any way to make a train travel slower through curves? Like maglev has +100% curve speed, would it be possible to make a maglev train travel curves in speed of rail - but on maglev rails?
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09:40<V453000>something like reversed tilt flag
09:40<V453000>which wouldnt increase, but decrease that
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>curve speed is a railtpye property
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>but the granularity is really bad...
09:46<V453000>hm
09:47<V453000>I see
09:48<V453000>thanks, I will see if that is a viable option :)
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11:01<dihedral>anybody who could potentially fix a broken lvm partition?
11:03<heffer>broken in what way?
11:07<dihedral>"sda2 too small for target" the lv is suspended
11:08<blathijs>dihedral: And what did you do to get here?
11:08<dihedral>my college tried to extend the partition
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11:08<dihedral>i have no idea what commands he issued as they are stored in the broken lvm partition
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11:09<Ammler>there are backups of the lvm config
11:09<dihedral>... i wish
11:09<dihedral>if there were backups i'd just load those
11:09<Ammler>you have nothing in /etc/lvm/archive ?
11:09<blathijs>This too small error, when do you get that?
11:10<dihedral>Ammler, the partition is /
11:10<dihedral>blathijs, when i tried to active lvm
11:13<blathijs>dihedral: You're running from a live CD or something now?
11:13<dihedral>yup
11:13<dihedral>arch
11:13<blathijs>dihedral: Any chance the kernel you're running now is too old?
11:13<blathijs>http://www.redhat.com/archives/dm-devel/2006-February/msg00068.html
11:14<heffer>and how about resizing the lv to something slightly smaller or exactly as large as the space on the partition?
11:14<blathijs>dihedral: Perhaps you could try breaking in the initrd. If it's a debian-based system, adding break=premount (or something like that) could dump you to a shell in initrd
11:14<Alver>Extending a partition... for LVM?
11:14<Alver>Madness.
11:14<dihedral>it's a redhat based system
11:14<dihedral>Alver, not really Madness at all
11:15<blathijs>heffer: I don't think this error says "The partition is too big", but this error is saying "The lvm userspace binaries are giving weird commands to the kernel"
11:15<Alver>Yes, very much madness. The very purpose of LVM is not having to deal with crap like partition resizing at all...
11:15<Alver>But anyway, yours is broken.
11:15<dihedral>lvdisplay gives information that the size is actually within bounds
11:15*Alver reads backlog
11:15<blathijs>dihedral: The break= trick might work for redhat as well, I think initramfs-tools used by Debian, isn't specific to Debian
11:16<blathijs>Alver: I suspect partition was intented to mean LV above
11:16<dihedral>sorry, yes
11:16<dihedral>exactly that
11:16<Alver>Oh. That does make a big difference. :)
11:17<dihedral>extra drive was added to the system
11:17<blathijs>dihedral: Are you in fact running an older kernel now?
11:17<dihedral>doubt it, redhat 6.3 has an older kernel than arch ;-)
11:18<Alver>Oh, wait.
11:18<Alver>dihedral: are you sure that the extra added device is present still?
11:18<dihedral>....
11:19<Alver>aka, no missing PVs?
11:19<dihedral>pvdisplay does list the correct data, yet sfdisk -l says it's a type 83 partition instead of 8e
11:20<Alver>You can change partition type if necessary
11:20<@peter1138>that's pretty common
11:20<Alver>But it shouldn't matter much, I would hope
11:20<@peter1138>magic autodetection, yeah
11:20<Alver>I would interpret your error as 'your VG says that LV is $x big, but I only see sda2, and that's too small to fit that LV'
11:21<dihedral>sadly that is not correct, the current size of the lv is still small enough to fit
11:21<dihedral>the kernel panict when the person tried the lvresize
11:21<Alver>... ouch.
11:22<dihedral>vg is 90G lv is 85G
11:23<Alver>Hrm, linux' lvdisplay is ass, or else they moved stuff in a place I can't find it
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11:23<@peter1138>i never bother with lvm
11:23<Alver>dihedral: if it panicked during extending and it won't come up now, the only sane approach is restore from backup.
11:24<Alver>You really cannot trust your data, imo
11:24<@peter1138>i don't ever anticipate adding drives and wanting to extend filesystems onto them
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11:24<Alver>peter1138: it has major advantages
11:24<dihedral>i prever living without lvm too
11:24<dihedral>and i do resize disks or partitions if it really has to be done
11:24<Alver>You can move filesystems from one storage box to another without the services even noticing
11:25<Rubidium>Alver: that stack overflow warning might 'just' be because of the signal handler abort()-ing
11:25<Rubidium>i.e. it's shown whenever a signal is sent from a signal handler
11:27<blathijs>dihedral: I wonder if you could somehow manually retrieve the block list for your PV and perhaps shorten it to only include the blocks from before the resize
11:27<dihedral>it does not look like the resize actually too place
11:28<blathijs>dihedral: The size is still listed at the old size, you mean?
11:28<blathijs>Perhaps the block list (or Physical Extents they are called, I think) is updated but the size isn't?
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11:33<dihedral>that could very well be the case
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11:51<dihedral>well, thank you anyway
11:51<dihedral>i'll just leave it at that
11:57<@peter1138>Data Allowance: Unlimited
11:57<@peter1138>Actual Usage: 121.21 GB
11:57<@peter1138>hmm
11:57<@peter1138>120GB downloaded a month o_O
11:58<@peter1138>probably all those THQ games on steam...
11:58<@peter1138>If during the month you go over your allocated amount and there isn't enough to cover it in the reserve tank we will add another 5Gig which you will be invoiced at £0.00 per Gig.
11:58<@peter1138>o_O
11:58<NGC3982>Out of wich contexts?
11:58<NGC3982>-s
11:58<NGC3982>"Reserve tank" :D
11:58<@peter1138>i guess i have grandfathered account? heh
11:59<NGC3982>Capped (static) broadband connections are evil.
11:59<NGC3982>Almost by definition.
12:01<Pinkbeast>Errr they're also almost ubiquitous, the only question is whether your ISP lies about it
12:01-!-Superuser [~Superuser@host81-156-239-16.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
12:02<Pinkbeast>... not helped here by the Advertising Standards Authority deciding that ISPs were allowed to lie about it, which is a sod if you want to sell an actually-uncapped connection for businesses
12:04<Superuser>guys, more corrections for the original English strings
12:04<Superuser>http://translator.openttd.org/en/trunk/el_GR/STR_CHEATS_WARNING < -- needs a full stop at the end as it's a dialogue box.
12:05<Superuser>no idea what NPF is http://translator.openttd.org/en/trunk/el_GR/STR_CONFIG_SETTING_PATHFINDER_NPF
12:05<Pinkbeast>"New Path Finder", I think, but please don't take my word for it.
12:05<blathijs>Superuser: New PathFinder
12:06<blathijs>Superuser: Take my word for it (I wrote it)
12:06<Superuser>also, there are some strings that write Maglev as MagLev and others that write it as Maglev
12:06<Superuser>pick one and stick with it
12:06<blathijs>It's not so new anymore, right now though
12:06<Superuser>you could perhaps disambiguate by expanding that acronym?
12:07<blathijs>Superuser: I'm afraid that explicitly writing "New" would only confuse people, given that YAPF is actually newer than NPF
12:07<Superuser>but YAPF is also abbreviated
12:07<Superuser>you should at least let people know what they mean
12:07<Pinkbeast>Suggest "NPF" => "NPF Pathfinder".
12:08<Pinkbeast>Now we know it's a pathfinder but it doesn't suggest it is new. :-)
12:08<Superuser>yeah, recursive acronym lol
12:08<Superuser>PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor
12:08<Superuser>GNU's Not Unix! (I still wonder what it actually is)
12:08<Pinkbeast>I'm entirely serious. What do people want to know? It's a pathfinder. What don't you want to tell them? It's new.
12:09<Pinkbeast>I think it's more than GNU's not UNIX
12:10<Superuser>well, you might as well not people give the option to use that if it has been superseded by YAPF
12:10<Superuser>my bad, not the option, I meant take it out
12:10<Superuser>what am I writing today
12:13<Superuser>anyway, can someone look into my other pedantic corrections, possibly change them in the upstream? Where's Alberth when you need them. :(
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12:15<blathijs>Superuser: I think the NPF string is fine as it is, since it's displayed as one option of several in the UI. i.e. Pathfinder for trains: NPF / YAPF
12:15<Superuser>cool, I have no problem with that, but what about Maglev and MagLev
12:16<Superuser>it's rendered both ways in the upstream (US English) strings.
12:16<blathijs>I would say Maglev is nicer, but I'm not really authorative anymore :-)
12:17<Pinkbeast>Pick whatever looks nicer in the target language and be consistent?
12:17<Superuser>it's just called Maglev in my language, and I assume it's a similar situation for most languages
12:17<Superuser>but anyway, I'm highlighting this problem so that the most-played language version (US English) is ALSO consistent!
12:18<Superuser>My man Alberth would make a change in the code as soon as I pedantically pointed the stuff out, what a guy
12:18<Superuser>though he wouldn't commit straight away
12:18<Superuser>just push all that later with another commit
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13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24816 /trunk/src/lang (12 files in 2 dirs) (2012-12-10 18:46:25 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>basque - 50 changes by lutxiketa
13:46<@DorpsGek>belarusian - 2 changes by KorneySan
13:46<@DorpsGek>dutch - 22 changes by habell
13:46<@DorpsGek>greek - 118 changes by Evropi
13:46<@DorpsGek>italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
13:46<@DorpsGek>malay - 17 changes by richz
13:46<@DorpsGek>maltese - 24 changes by Drinu276
13:46<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 8 changes by lenhoy
13:46<@DorpsGek>polish - 36 changes by wojteks86
13:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 2 changes by KorneySan
13:46<@DorpsGek>swedish - 6 changes by Joel_A
13:46<@DorpsGek>vietnamese - 70 changes by myquartz
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13:55<@Alberth>o/
13:58<frosch123>hai albert :)
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14:11<NGC3982>Jesus christ.
14:11<NGC3982>Generating 2048^2 with "many" canals on a P4.
14:12<NGC3982>My computer will spontaniosly turn into a quantum Boltzman brain before this is complete.
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14:16<@Alberth>do you ever fill such an amount of space?
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14:18<NGC3982>It have occured once or twice that a 2048^2 map feels "complete".
14:18<NGC3982>As in the sence where "complete" means "I have no idea what's going on anymore."
14:26<@Alberth>:)
14:28<@Alberth>I am mostly still struggling in understanding why people play at such large maps
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14:36<@Terkhen>hello
14:36<@Alberth>hello Terkhen
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14:48<drac_boy>hi
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14:52<Wolf01>hello o/
14:53<@Alberth>\o
14:53<drac_boy>hi wolf
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15:01<andythenorth>lo
15:06<Wolf01>I developed an addiction to gnomoria :( :) :(
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15:09<andythenorth>I think there are tablets for it
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15:14<@Alberth>hi andy
15:15<@Alberth>tablets with tiles, if you use windows 8
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15:16<Wolf01>I already try to play it on my tablet, but it has some strange behavior with touch, seem like everything needs to be hovered before accepting the click event
15:16<Wolf01>OTTD instead is really well playable
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15:50<andythenorth>quiet
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15:57<@Alberth>wiebabiedoeda
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16:03<andythenorth>exactly
16:08<@Alberth>good night
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16:44<V453000>is my understanding correct that if I set curve_speed_multiplier in a railtype to 2, I get normal rail (88kmh for CL1), 3 = monorail (132kmh for CL1), 4 = maglev (177 for CL1) ... does that mean 1 should make half the speed of normal rail -> 44 km/h for 1 half-tile long curves?
16:51<V453000>I seem to be getting the same as monorail currently :s with 1
16:54<V453000>ah 0 does the rail :( so I guess I cant have the base speeds
16:55<V453000>being a multiplier I expected the 1 to multiply the base speeds ... guess not :(
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17:01<V453000>anyone knowledgeful like Eddi|zuHause2 ? :)
17:06<MNIM>I am knowledgeable.
17:06<MNIM>though probably not in the area you need to know.
17:07<V453000>I sort of smell that this wont be solvable anyway :(
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17:08<V453000>as 0 value gives a multiplier of 2, I dont think I can reach a multiplier of 1
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17:14*NGC3982 arcade machine is taking form.
17:21<frosch123>night
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17:22<V453000>ah it just isnt written in NML documentation ... nfo says it
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17:53<Wolf01>'night
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19:51<InducTrackerOTTD>Anyone know what the age limit is for buying shares in the game?
19:54<V453000>InducTrackerOTTD: why dont you see wiki.openttd.org
19:55<V453000>it is great for anything game mechanics related
19:55<InducTrackerOTTD>Not great, but vaguely adequate
19:55<V453000>I always found everything there
19:56<InducTrackerOTTD>You must never search for everything but the obvious stuff then =)
19:56<V453000>no I just use the search box
19:56<V453000>typing company shares gave me quite a clear result
19:56<InducTrackerOTTD>The existence of search box does not make info magically appear
19:57<V453000>sort of does
19:57<InducTrackerOTTD>Exactly, you might hope that it does, but it doesn't
19:57<V453000>did you even try to search for company shares?
19:57<V453000>the very first link almost mentions it
19:58<V453000>and when you read the actual page of the link, it does say it precisely
19:58<InducTrackerOTTD>"almost mention" is not mentioning it. Altho I see what you mean now
19:58<InducTrackerOTTD>Grah, more stuff to put on my "fix the wiki" list
19:59<V453000>You also have to wait for the company to get old enough before buying 25% or a full take over. This age is about <- makes it kind of obvious
19:59<InducTrackerOTTD>info in the wrong articles is useless, normally
19:59<InducTrackerOTTD>The error message told me as much already
19:59<V453000>it is the info about the setting, looks correct to me
19:59<InducTrackerOTTD>the correct place for it is in the economy article, which is trying to cover share trading in detail
19:59<InducTrackerOTTD>in insufficient detail
20:00<V453000>there is no share trading detail, you buy 25% done
20:00<InducTrackerOTTD>no
20:00<InducTrackerOTTD>three is
20:00<V453000>idk what else there is to talk about
20:00<InducTrackerOTTD>"you buy increments of 25%, after you wait 7 years"
20:00<InducTrackerOTTD>Hmm, where to bookmark http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles#Date_of_introduction under
20:04<InducTrackerOTTD>Probably shouldn't be ottding, but sleeping
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20:26<drac_boy>just had to wonder about it but how much can you vary the train runcosts by?
20:26<drac_boy>(for your own newgrfs)
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20:27<InducTrackerOTTD>Infinity?
20:28<drac_boy>heh so hmm it wouldn't be hard to code something approaching a hybrid battery-diesel locomotive where its almost nil runcost if just completely stopped?
20:29<drac_boy>for example that is
20:30<InducTrackerOTTD>with battery electric hybrid your train would be better off with turbine-electric fuel combustion stage
20:30<InducTrackerOTTD>lighter, with potential for higher efficiency, and guaranteed higher fuel flexibility =)
20:30<drac_boy>heh well my real point was it would for example only cost a few dollars to run at stopped idle but then come up to a few thousands dollars when its moving in any manner?
20:31<InducTrackerOTTD>Holy level of detail batman
20:33<Flygon>Before we even get into that level of detail
20:33<Flygon>I have one suggestion
20:33<Flygon>Limited ranges for non-overhead wire locomotives
20:33<InducTrackerOTTD>drac_boy: some data you might care about in here perhaps? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains#Running_cost_base_.280E.29_and_factor_.280D.29
20:33<Flygon>Then you have distinctions between Steam, Condensed-steam, Diesel, and Electric locomotives :p
20:34<InducTrackerOTTD>So fueling stations for 'em non-hooked up types?
20:34<InducTrackerOTTD>watering/coaling/fueling
20:34<Flygon>Yes
20:34<drac_boy>flygon actually I can't remember any details but I recall one of the older green boxcab locomotive on SBB had a large flywheel setup in some manner so it pretty much could run under a few kilometers of lack of overhead power as like as if the wires were still there
20:34<Flygon>Could add some depth, and perhaps even encourage extra stations that players would otherwise not build
20:34<drac_boy>the limiting factor of course would be how long the flywheel inside could stay spun up for under the generator's backload
20:35<Flygon>drac_boy: That makes perfect sense. Protection from both power outages.
20:35<drac_boy>was a bit weird for me to see that photo at first .. it was running with pantographs down!!
20:35<drac_boy>InducTrackerOTTD mm thanks
20:35<InducTrackerOTTD>I think the extra stations for networks/lines will come naturally with cargo destination patch merging to trunk
20:36<Flygon>Though, all the limited range stuff would eventually end up doing is make people electrify everywhere...
20:36<drac_boy>InducTrackerOTTD problem with the 'extra station' idea is what if players do not want to have to deal with fuels considering its a tycoon game not simulator game?
20:36<Flygon>Electrification would need it's own limits...
20:36<InducTrackerOTTD>cause if passengers/cargo only travel to their desired destinations... servicing more destinations becomes a priority
20:36<Flygon>eg. Substations, power generation... and the fact that too many trains sucking power from overhead reduces power of all trains. ;)
20:37<InducTrackerOTTD>Well, the game doesn't even have a power transmission or fuel consumption paradigm
20:37<Flygon>Sort of
20:37<Flygon>Don't aircraft have limited range mechanics?
20:37<InducTrackerOTTD>Might be worth your time nagging about simutrans being an unplayable pile of non-user-interface, for variety passtime fun
20:37<drac_boy>flygon thats only because its too easy to calculate airplane routes
20:37<InducTrackerOTTD>complaining about it as a passtime that is
20:37<InducTrackerOTTD>=)
20:38*drac_boy smacks InducTrackerOTTD because I actually like simutrans -_-
20:38<Flygon>drac_boy: Then plan your routes carefully and use lots of waypoints
20:38<drac_boy>flygon and what if I just want a **** tycoon game which is aptly called "tycoon" in the first place?
20:38<drac_boy>:p
20:38<drac_boy>heh
20:38<Flygon>Simple
20:39<Flygon>Allow the user to choose if he wants the mechanic enabled or not
20:39<Flygon>Ruel 1 of user friendliness: Give the user freedom to choose
20:39<drac_boy>well that works I guess...providing the user still can override a grf's default choice ;)
20:39<Flygon>Of course
20:40<InducTrackerOTTD>drac_boy: I haven't tried it in a while, but I'm pretty sure no sane and consistent behaviour was present in the building tools in version 111.2
20:40<drac_boy>flygon but either way if you're serious about the fuel thing could you be mindful to add a few less known types just for the sake of the gameplay ... eg track pans for any likely-included steam locomotive tender scoops to be able to fill up water on the fly without stopping (waypoint-like behaviour there I guess)
20:40<InducTrackerOTTD>Rule one of software development: too many variables, and the whole universe won't be able to compute/maintain/develop it =p
20:41*InducTrackerOTTD wanders off to look up 'track pans'
20:42<drac_boy>and the water towers would also have to be useable by the diesels too .. after all a lot of the early road diesels in usa pretty much used steam water on and off for their radiators
20:43<Flygon>drac_boy: I'm serious
20:43<Flygon>I'm still surprised on-the-fly scooping is a thing
20:43<drac_boy>that was why many larger steam engine servicing tracks could easily dieselize just by adding a trackside fuel tank with pump .. since the water and sand were already present
20:43<Flygon>It NEVER happened in Victoria
20:43<Flygon>Neither was condensing
20:43<Flygon>So the solution was to just build GIANT tenders
20:44<drac_boy>flygon some of the NYC tenders were already big .. but they had a lot of coal and rather little water .. they depended on water scooping to make up the difference ;)
20:44<drac_boy>nothing like sitting on ten or even twelve axles :P (just the tender, yes)
20:45<Flygon>We had a lot of coal AND water :p
20:45<Flygon>Or a lot of stops
20:45<Flygon>It really depended on the line
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20:46<drac_boy>yeah ..NYC was trying to squeeze quite a number of nonstop express in the name of making ever faster schedules between major cities .. leaving all the all-stopping trains to smaller locomotives making much more frequent load+fuel halts
20:47*Flygon nod
20:47<Flygon>Here, things were more segregated...
20:47<Flygon>Well
20:47<Flygon>It's complex
20:47<drac_boy>so nothing like eg two trains scheduled to leave boston at same time but one arrives in next city 4-3/4 hours later while the other one only finally arrives 7-1/2 hours later ... and mm yeah guess what? the first one only made one single stop but otherwise it had to keep running 80+mph hard for a long time
20:47<Flygon>It really depended on the line @_@
20:47<drac_boy>the latter of course had to pick up a lot of coal and water manually ... but eh
20:47<Flygon>And trains here rarely broke 70mph anyway :p
20:48<drac_boy>flygon heh .. well the other thing in northeast usa was some locomotives intentionally had a small tender to lower the total train weight
20:48<drac_boy>Atlantics were sometimes well known for rather short tenders
20:49<drac_boy>not too surprising that PRR equipped some of theirs' with scoops
20:49<Flygon>I'm surprised the solution wasn't just "MORE POWER"
20:49<drac_boy>flygon..more power means more cost which was not economical for only 2-4 coaches :)
20:49<Flygon>Yes, but, AMERICA
20:50<drac_boy>thats why when a train needed more PRR just scheduled a K4 on the head instead .. it was basically "one step up" from the Atlantic
20:50<Flygon>Here... well, eh
20:50<Flygon>Less coaches just meant less powerful locomotive
20:50<drac_boy>interestingly enough it was the problem and cost of doubleheaded K4's that caused PRR to seriously try their T1 locomotives ... but of course we know how short-lived these were
20:51<InducTrackerOTTD>Don't you mean: yes, but Scotty!
20:51<Flygon>A shame, too
20:51<Flygon>The T1 was brilliant
20:51<drac_boy>btw flygon..a lot of photos would show only two or three heavyweight coaches behind an Atlantic ... they never ever had more than three without needing assist or being replaced with a different locomotive
20:51<Flygon>VR should have imported one to replace the S-class for the Spirit of Progress... 138kmph to 200kmph upgrade much? :D
20:51<drac_boy>goes to show how two large axles had their pro and con ... depending on schedules and loading
20:52<Flygon>Except the line wasn't designed for post-115km/h :p
20:52<drac_boy>heh
20:53<Flygon>Cue trains having paper recorders with suspiciously little amounts of paper
20:53<drac_boy>flygon one of the many issues with the T1 was that sometimes it was rather slippery...and for being a mallet (in loose term) that was always a difficult thing to control if its only one set rather than both sets that are slipping when you only have one single throttle lever to regulate both :-s
20:54<Flygon>O.o
20:54<Flygon>How the heck do you avoid slips then?
20:54<drac_boy>flygon by cutting back throttle to *both* set of drivers .. which of course then make the non-slipping drivers lose their work :|
20:54<drac_boy>a reason they were not so popular even with shorter trains
20:55<Flygon>VR probably wouldn't have handled it well, then :p
20:55<Flygon>The only place I can think of, in Australia, that articulated locomotives even happened was New South Wales... and that's a stretch
20:56<drac_boy>the funny thing is that when diesels took over the highspeed expresses ... the T1's got knocked down to lowly heavy locals for a short time which meant less maintenance which only made them fail ever more
20:56<drac_boy>nothing like seeing a T1 slowly crawl up to a red signal with a mashed mix of different heavyweight coaches and ex-boxcar baggage wagons
20:56<Flygon>Ouch
20:56<Flygon>Same things happened here... Diesels came
20:57<drac_boy>the T1 were not so graceful with such trains unlike most other express locomotives which still could work certain locals just fine....
20:57<Flygon>And steam locos intended for high speed expresses got reduced to shunters
20:57<InducTrackerOTTD>Are you two ancient wizards? O.O
20:57<Flygon>We foam a lot
20:58<drac_boy>of course theres nothing like watching a high-wheeled 4-8-2 hauling an all-heavyweight train of one baggage/coach and three coaches at a speed too fast for the old branchline rails ... heh :)
20:58<Flygon>He knows about NW USA railways
20:58<Flygon>I know about Vic, Aus railways :p
20:58<drac_boy>and btw flygon here's something else...
20:58<drac_boy>you know of the wartime 2-10-0 german steam locomotives? (the big one built for fast heavy trains)
20:58<Flygon>Yes?
20:58<drac_boy>flygon well some of them had rather interesting duties that were not always photographed...
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21:00<drac_boy>like how about a fairly-well-kept 2-10-0 hauling just only two 3-axle coaches up the slight grade on a well kept double track branchline through the rural mountain?
21:00<drac_boy>kinda a lot of power for such a small train heh :)
21:00<InducTrackerOTTD>drac_boy: got a name for that class?
21:00<drac_boy>InducTrackerOTTD I think so..let me check my class id list for german again...
21:00<Flygon>Heh
21:00<Flygon>Perhaps it doubled as an engine movement?
21:01<InducTrackerOTTD>"go there, here: take this with you"
21:01<Flygon>I envy Europe/America and their 9001 engine sets :p
21:01<Flygon>Australia has 0.1 sets :B
21:02<Flygon>In OpenTTD
21:02<Flygon>And most Australian OpenTTDers are New South Welsh..
21:02<drac_boy>InducTrackerOTTD it was BR50 I believe
21:02<Flygon>Which is a bit like Wales being the entire represenstation of Britian
21:02<drac_boy>flygon nope it wasn't an engine move .. it ran this little train both directions :)
21:03<Flygon>How odd
21:03<InducTrackerOTTD>Thanks
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21:04<InducTrackerOTTD>I envy people that can be bothered making custom trainsets
21:04<drac_boy>flygon and which of I never knew it till I saw a photo a few weeks ago but german do indeed know what the term 'top and tail' is ... I actually found a photo of one train that was a 4-6-0 on the head .. a few coaches .. then another 4-6-0 running in reverse on the tail .. some more reading later it turned out that this particular route had no turnaround faculity so they just ran the longer trains like that to save troubles
21:04<InducTrackerOTTD>most of 'em out there have way too many vehicles in 'em =D
21:04<drac_boy>made sense tho...running tender-first would had imposed speed restrictions/etc ... so just put two locomotives back to back in the train :)
21:05<Flygon>Here, we call that "push-pull"... except that steam locos implied only one locomotive was actually running
21:05<Flygon>So it's technically not push-pull @_@
21:05<drac_boy>heh
21:06<InducTrackerOTTD>Looks like I found the one: DRB Class 50
21:06<drac_boy>InducTrackerOTTD it was started in 1939 by nazi .. hence why it was considered a wartime class (among a few other numbers that ended up in more or less same years too)
21:07<drac_boy>made sense tho...when you consider a single 2-10-0 having to haul several tanks flatcars .. lumbers ... ammo ... some coal ..etc all in one single long freight train unassisted
21:07<Flygon>Nothing got built here during wartime... which is a shame
21:07<InducTrackerOTTD>Hmm, this looks bizarrely familiar, perhaps that one toy loco I had lying around as a kid was based on those
21:07<Flygon>WWII killed the H-class
21:08<Flygon>Probably one of the most elegant unarticulated locomotives built in Australia
21:09<drac_boy>flygon heh I don't know about canada but in usa the war board immedately restricted any completly new designs but allowed a few to be built as-is or with small modifications .. and of course (wonder how things would had been different otherwise) only allowed emd to produce the road diesels basically
21:09<Flygon>I actually find it mildly surprising that the rest of the world kept designing new designs
21:09<drac_boy>alco had to wait till 1945 to be able to produce anything again ... even the PA's
21:10<drac_boy>and wagons were another matter... the last order for passenger cars was done in early 1941 then no more were allowed till post-war
21:10<drac_boy>so pullman had to depend on a lot of their existing pools and many rebuilds to keep things moving
21:10*Flygon smirk
21:11<Flygon>Makes it sound like Australia's in wartime
21:11<Flygon>We're CONSTANTLY short on passenger cars for locomotives
21:11<drac_boy>even then the war board limited any overnight trains ... before finally saying that any short-distance sleeper trains had to stop for good
21:11<Flygon>To the extent that sets build almost pre-1950 are being used still
21:12<drac_boy>so that basically eg removed a 320 miles timetabled train NYC would had been running ... for the sake of keeping the sleepers in pool for the more critical longer distance routes
21:12<Flygon>The solution according to the Vic Govt? Buy more (expensive) fast train railcars
21:12<drac_boy>heh
21:12<drac_boy>I don't want to ask :p
21:13<Flygon>They intend to displace all locomotive hauled service with DMU's
21:13<Flygon>All in a single class
21:13<Flygon>Completely ignorig that the DMU's lack food facilities...
21:14<Flygon>Wartime restrictions in the USA confuse me, either way
21:14<Flygon>And to an extent, in Australia
21:14<Flygon>Both countries are highly isolated, and lack good points to be invaded from
21:14<Flygon>And in the case of Australia, most population centres are in regions that are the polar opposite to the rest of the world
21:14*Flygon shrug
21:15<Flygon>War is confusing
21:18<Flygon>Buuut, yeah
21:18<Flygon>Point is
21:18<Flygon>I'm not sure
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21:22<drac_boy>flygon about dmu and food facilities...
21:22<drac_boy>do you mean a full diner-style kitchen?
21:23<Flygon>I mean, something that serves cooked chicken rolls
21:24<Flygon>...I can't find photo
21:24<Flygon>http://www.vline.com.au/journey/onboard/foodanddrinks.html
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21:35<drac_boy>mm
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21:37<drac_boy>well I'm going to bed soon, see you another time ok?
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22:25<Flygon>You know what I find strange?
22:26<Flygon>They serve alcohol on aircraft, but not trains
22:26<Flygon>In fact, you're not suppose to drink alcohol on trains here, fullstop...
22:26<Flygon>...luckily conductors turn blind eyes, unless the person is clearly disruptive p
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 11 00:00:03 2012