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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-13

---Logopened Thu Dec 13 00:00:06 2012
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04:42<SHADOW-XIII>I just found - anyone aware of that ?
04:43<SHADOW-XIII>couldn't find the link on the forums
04:43<Flygon>Anyone remember that thread about porting OpenTTD to being run in a browser?
04:43<SHADOW-XIII>this one seems to be working amazingly well, can even save, shame no multiplayer but looks amazing
04:44<Markk>I can't play it
04:44<Markk>Just a black screen.
04:44<Flygon>I'm using Chrome
04:44<SHADOW-XIII>works for me on chrome
04:45<SHADOW-XIII>Chromium 18.x
04:46<Flygon>Scrolling is laggy
04:46<SHADOW-XIII>works here, bit fast, but still, I am amazing how well it works
04:46<Flygon>Oh man
04:46<Flygon>Scrolling is buggy as hell
04:47<Flygon>23.x here
04:47<Markk>Firefox 18 here.
04:48<Ammler>does it run on the server or in the browser?
04:49<Flygon>I am not used to original TTD graphics
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04:51<SHADOW_XIII>back ...
04:51<SHADOW_XIII>did I miss anything last 5 min ?
04:52<Ammler>you could always check the irc logs :-)
04:52<Markk>The world collided.
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: a collision kinda always requires 2 objects... ;)
04:55<Markk>And everything tastes blue.
04:56<Markk>taste like blue*
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>"at night it's colder than outside"
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04:59<NGC3982>What a brown thursday.
05:01<Eddi|zuHause>(if you speak german this is "related" :))
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05:05<Flygon>Markk: Blue? Like Blues Clues?
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05:59<Markk>Flygon: Everything just taste like blue.
05:59<Markk>Flygon: Like the colour blue.
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06:32<SHADOW_XIII>lol, I don't have chat logs, using forum client :)
06:32<SHADOW_XIII>at work now :P
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06:38<NGC3982>We have a forum client?
06:55<NGC3982>Uhm. What function stops town rating from increasing whilst planting trees?
06:55<NGC3982>It seems to reach a limit.
06:57<Markk>Can't get better than "good", right?
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07:12<NGC3982>Markk: I don't know about that, i just noticed that the amount of trees planted resulted in higher rating is not linear.
07:12<NGC3982>Acceptable station layout?
07:13<V453000>short curves are short
07:13<NGC3982>Yes, i know. I keep ignoring the curves.
07:14*NGC3982 notices he have forgotten a signal
07:14<V453000>2way PBS signal at terminus stations dont do anything
07:15<drac_boy>hmm that sort of layout I would had probably taken almost all of it out except for the two through lines and redo it but thats me tho :)
07:16<NGC3982>V453000: Hm, i see.
07:17<@peter1138>they do something
07:17<V453000>only if the station is accessible from the other end, be it second entrance or a depot, it has a use
07:17<@peter1138>they're not necessary thouhg
07:17<V453000>I totally dont understand why majority of people builds the 2way PBS at every terminus
07:17<@peter1138>i put them in cos i might expand it at some point, and it looks better
07:18<V453000>how does that help expanding? :d like to the other end?
07:18<NGC3982>Function and looks goes hand in glove with PBS.
07:18<drac_boy>other thing is I only use single platform alone for deadend stations but if its more then it goes into a RORO unless crushed by limited space by town or mountain :)
07:19<NGC3982>So, the next one:
07:19<V453000>big PBS crosses never solve stuff "well"
07:19<NGC3982>And yes, curves are shorter than my gentleman's sausage.
07:19<drac_boy>ughh thats a big waste of tracks indeed V453000
07:19<V453000>probably acceptable for your level of traffic
07:19<NGC3982>That's a mess, but it works for the low amount of traffic.
07:19<drac_boy>'low' = one track
07:20<V453000>it isnt about wasting tracks, it is about trains crossing each other on every occasion, which is very slow
07:20<NGC3982>Although, i have to change it, since farm supplies are about to make production go Las Vegas.
07:20<V453000>low = less than one track
07:20<V453000>this wont work with 1 full traffic track ever
07:20<@peter1138>welcome to openttd, where people build how they like, even if it's not efficient or not pretty...
07:21<NGC3982>It's not like i'm not enjoying the critisism
07:21<drac_boy>V453000 I've managed to have one train each few days at a short platform and its only off one single track with no holding places in th RORO. but then mm :)
07:21<NGC3982>That was what i was looking for :).
07:21<V453000>in such cases they usually dont ask others what they think ;)
07:21<NGC3982>But yes, ill try and change this
07:21<NGC3982>First of, to get rid of the mainline crossing the PBS cross.
07:22<V453000>you dont need to get rid of it perhaps, how about just making multiple smaller crosses
07:23<V453000>like from
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07:25<Flygon>I cbf using bridges for station entrances
07:25<@peter1138>can't be fucked
07:26<Flygon>can't be frakked
07:26<Flygon>Thanks for the honesty, peter
07:26<V453000>why not? :D
07:26<drac_boy>heh heh
07:26<Flygon>Too much pain for a low amount of gain, given how I design my network
07:26<V453000>low amount of gain?
07:26<Flygon>I rarely get collisions, unless I do something unusual
07:26<V453000>what do you do when your station jams then
07:26<drac_boy>flygon I do sometimes use short bridges for passenger station junctions ... basically doing what in real life they would call "flyover track"
07:26<Flygon>I design around jams... until they do happen
07:27<drac_boy>not sure if theres more than one spelling of that word in different country but I hope you get the idea?
07:27<@peter1138>if it jams you've made a mistake
07:27<NGC3982>V453000: That's nice, but i don't like tunnels and bridges used as station entrances.
07:27<NGC3982>V453000: As an esthetical thing.
07:27<Flygon>In which case, I clearly need to redesign the station (and have a lower speed track surrounding)
07:27<NGC3982>Although, that seems to be a very good idea
07:27<V453000>I dont think I can help you in any way which makes sense then
07:27<NGC3982>Here is the mainline change
07:27<drac_boy>flygon or shall I find a photo instead?
07:27<Flygon>drac_boy: We use flyover tracks irl
07:28<Flygon>In Australia
07:28<drac_boy>yeah ok just wanted check you knew the term :)
07:28<drac_boy>flygon one moment..let me make a quick mockup...
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07:28<NGC3982>I added a small step for trains suddenly going the wrong way.
07:28<Flygon>I'll need to show a screenshot of a typical design
07:29<Flygon>But basically... I do allow for easy 2-way 2-train movement
07:29<NGC3982>I noticed that small pieces like that make huge differences when auto-replacing trains and similar.
07:29<Flygon>And ANY jams are very brief
07:29<NGC3982>And that.
07:30<Flygon>Gah, load faster, OpenTTD
07:30<@peter1138>Downloading Time 4m left Bytes 443.54 MB remaining Speed 1.86 mB/s
07:30<V453000>:DD wtf is that?
07:30<@peter1138>That's annoying
07:30<@peter1138>mixing MB and mB in the same line ;(
07:30<NGC3982>It says byte in both places.
07:31<@peter1138>that too
07:31<@peter1138>i'm assuming it was once multiline with :s
07:32<@peter1138>NGC3982, of course, that signal leaving the station shouldn't be there
07:32<NGC3982>I know, but it feels ..better.
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07:32<NGC3982>For some reason.
07:32<@peter1138>it's wrong for pbs
07:33<V453000>I am afraid he doesnt use other signals than pbs
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07:33<@peter1138>pbs is all you need
07:34<@peter1138>the others were only left in for compatibility with old saves
07:34<V453000>yes if your iq is somewhere around 15
07:34<Flygon>Uploading my standard layouts to Dropbox...
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07:34<Flygon> How Flygon does it :p
07:34<V453000>thats not very creative either ... one cross
07:35<NGC3982><@peter1138> the others were only left in for compatibility with old saves
07:35<Flygon>V45: Save savings
07:35<NGC3982>I thought they were left in there for adversity
07:35<NGC3982>And plain fun.
07:35<Flygon>Considering the amount of pass I'll get, I can justify the potential (small) lockups
07:35<V453000>of course not, pre-signals have a lot more possibilities than PBS
07:36<@peter1138>the original patch with the current pbs form had only pbs signals
07:36<Flygon>And the 2nd one is acutally WIP
07:36<NGC3982>When i play 1800-ish UKRS2+ scenarios, i always use the older type of signals (and block signals) before the 1900's.
07:36<NGC3982>Just for the sake of it.
07:37<drac_boy>oh wait I had an old image I took from someone's moment to upload it...
07:37<@peter1138>NGC3982, i think you mean diversity, but i'll go with adversity too ;)
07:38<NGC3982>peter1138: Yes of course.
07:38<NGC3982>The said "adversity" on Top Gear.
07:38<NGC3982>Don't write something else.
07:38<NGC3982>Don't write while doing something else.
07:39<@peter1138>this newgrf scanning lark takes way too long
07:39<@peter1138>who the hell introduced that? :(
07:40<drac_boy>probably someone who couldn't manage his grf folder?
07:40*drac_boy only has a few major grfs anyhow
07:41<V453000>the worst comes when you have many versions of each newGRF
07:43*NGC3982 have never managed a NewGRF folder.
07:44<V453000>how do you do that anyway :d
07:44<NGC3982>Exactly. :D
07:45<NGC3982>Next project
07:45<NGC3982>For some reason, i have never really used the same station for dropoff as for pickup
07:46<V453000>this station works pretty well, but yes, sharing drop and pickup isnt a good choice
07:47<NGC3982>Not too much ability to expand, but milk/livestock doesn't really pay off expanding anyway.
07:51<drac_boy> theres a bit of other forms too including ones with no offseting .. and my favorite tho is using tunnels with diagonal tracks right on top (aka no S curve which openttd always needs....come on fix that!)
07:51<V453000>more trains = more fun, always pays off
07:51<drac_boy>I've never had any problem with one train alwasy coming through each 1-5 days but mm to our own
07:51<V453000>that is a cute solution drac_boy, but as long as the "X" is small enough to not limit platform throughput, it is a sufficient solution
07:51<NGC3982>drac_boy: that's nice :).
07:52<drac_boy>V453000 actually the 'x' does jam all the times
07:52<drac_boy>because of train A trying to get to line 2 while train B is waiting for good :)
07:53<V453000>not if it is small enough, for like 2 or 3 platforms
07:53<drac_boy>NGC3982 ty .. if it was for freights I rather use RORO instead...easier to manage signalling that way
07:53<drac_boy>with towns its only because one end of the station always butts into buildings so mm
07:53<drac_boy>V453000 yes it is
07:53<NGC3982>drac_boy: RORO?
07:54<V453000>this is a solution on the same basis but a bit cleaned up so it fits in larger scale :)
07:54<drac_boy>if i was to change that junction to a X I would have to pratically sell half of the trains off to avoid constant jams...and guess what? less loads coming out of the station.. no good :|
07:54<Pinkbeast>NGC: Trains enter at one end of the station and leave by the other.
07:54<NGC3982>peter1138: Ah.
07:54<drac_boy>NGC3982 I thought old players would already know :p Roll-In-Roll-Out .. hell even the old wiki still has it
07:55<NGC3982>I used that the first five years of OpenTTD
07:55<NGC3982>Until i got bored
07:55<NGC3982>Never heard the word, though.
07:55<Pinkbeast>Also it does look terribly artificial for stations in towns.
07:55<NGC3982>peter1138: Sorry, i'm hilighting you by mistake again.
07:55<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: *
07:55<@peter1138>drac_boy, roll-on, roll-off. comes from ferries
07:56<@peter1138>it's not a term used irl
07:56<NGC3982>RORO seams to be a good thing for freight, though a bit bulky for PAX in towns.
07:56<@peter1138>(for stations)
07:57<drac_boy>NGC3982 works for freight also because of their length too
07:57<V453000>what I meant to show you drac_boy was this though ... it works pretty much the same way as your "X-less terminus" but a lot faster and smaller
07:57<NGC3982>drac_boy: True.
07:57<V453000>NGC3982: you can always hide a roro exit in tunnels ;)
07:57<NGC3982>V453000: ;-)
07:57<drac_boy>eg a 26-cars train rolling back through the shared enter/exit junction would make some issues but .. if it went out the other end .. problem solved :)
07:58<drac_boy>it only work for pax because of these usually being of short lengths and/or fast to clear out
07:59*NGC3982 is starting to enjoy using <5-tile trains for pax
08:00<Flygon>drac_boy: I've perfected overkill
08:00<drac_boy>NGC3982 mind you once in a while theres no need for a bridge on a rail crossing because theres only 1 train using each line ... thats where I don't care for flat junctions then
08:00<Flygon>Two GG-1's (on opposite ends) for long distance rail passenger
08:00<NGC3982>drac_boy: I usually experiment with flat crossings.
08:00<Flygon>The only thing suitable is that it's doing a loop around the North American lakes :B
08:00<NGC3982>Though, it f*cks stuff up as soon as you increase the number of trains by N.
08:01<drac_boy>NGC3982 in usa it was kinda common to eg have a local light line cross a major mainline by having a swinging barrier gate that blocked the light line till train came to a stop and phoned dispatcher for clearance to unlock the gate and swing it into blocking the mainline for a few minutes as the train crossed by
08:01<NGC3982>oh, ok
08:01<drac_boy>NGC3982 it was not worth the cost and yearly cost of putting in light signals when theres so few trains on a weekly basis...much cheaper for the one lone train to just stop and clear through
08:02<NGC3982>Something like that
08:02<NGC3982>Useful as long as you use like ..two trains or something.
08:03<drac_boy>I didn't mean a connected junction .. I meant like in literally a '+' shape :)
08:03<drac_boy>just so you know if that wasn't the case
08:03<NGC3982>Oh, jeez.
08:06<drac_boy>NGC3982 in some places there was little traffic and the crossing was remote ... it was purely a "stop and proceed" ironically
08:06<drac_boy>almost exactly like any 4-way-yields road intersections
08:07<drac_boy>speeds were usually 30-60km/h so .. who cared ... you could see it for several seconds before your first axle finally touched it
08:07<V453000>what do you guys even do when you reach 2295 production/month industry
08:08<V453000>dont tell me you dont need throughput at that point
08:08<drac_boy>2295 what? tonnes?
08:09<NGC3982>drac_boy: I see.
08:09<NGC3982>V453000: You mean, when reaching max production?
08:09<V453000>units, tonnes, items, whatever
08:10<V453000>pretty much, or anywhere close to it
08:10<drac_boy>NGC3982 mind you there was one unusual junction in was to do with the limited lands what with kinda being in a valley shared with large river....
08:11<drac_boy>what happens is lets say the river runs west-east ... mainline is on the south bank parallel to it .. and you want to run another line heading northeast on other side ...
08:11<drac_boy>so what actually happened was a train coming from east ... it would actually hit a turnout that went left for a bit ... then start swing hard to the right in a tight curve .. and cross the mainline track itself before finally rambling onto the bridge
08:12<drac_boy>talk about having no space to just turn right immedately .. the bank was too close
08:14<drac_boy>signals on that one was a little more complicated than normal because the train's axles may have cleared the mainline but it was still technically fouling it with rolling through the crossover
08:14<drac_boy>NGC3982 do you get the idea tho? the track crossed itself basically
08:16<NGC3982>I guess
08:16<Flygon>Okay, I gotta sleep
08:16<Flygon>Night, peeps
08:16<drac_boy>oh and of course CSX actually has one "old" problem that started more than 80 years ago ... what happened was north-south line is at one elevation .. west-east is at another elevation low enough to have to use a tunnel (not a bridge!) instead ....
08:16<NGC3982>Flygon: Kisses.
08:16<Flygon>Kisses? Not enough, dear
08:17<drac_boy>and they wanted to connect the two for occassional train so what happened was they put in a single switchback to hold down the grade .... but this temporary solution actually became permament instead ... and even CSX is still leaving it as it is
08:18<drac_boy>makes for interesting operation with modern diesel ... basically pull into the switchback....then clear the other route with dispatcher ... back train up blind (theres no more cabooses eh?) to the other line .. then finally reset brakes to proceed on forward as usual
08:22<drac_boy>NGC3982 here the train is backing up into the switchback to then proceed downhill to the right to reach the other line
08:23<drac_boy>intrestingly enough the switchback is long enough for at least 110 cars now ... heh
08:24<drac_boy>NGC3982 I can't imagine what it would be like in europe if they were stuck with a switchback operation tho
08:24<drac_boy>different schedules and rules etc
08:29<NGC3982>Speaking of.
08:36<NGC3982>Using a depot as a real order is really nice if you want to "pre-build" trains for expansions
08:37<NGC3982>Since profit is not the main purpose of that station, i can build ten trains at once and just wait for the Farm Supplies to do the work.
08:38<drac_boy>not sure if I'm missing something just yet but do you have to stay with one wagon length or can you eg have it 20px long with one cargo class but 17px instead with another cargo class?
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>you can do overflow depots without explicit orders
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: yes, that is possible
08:40<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, but that's not ..right.
08:40<NGC3982>Doesn't feel proper.
08:40<NGC3982>Or something
08:40*NGC3982 wish he could use drive-trough depots
08:40<V453000>well drawn form and "coded" form the wagons differs too
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: you can charge extra for the rebuilding effort :)
08:41<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: ;)
08:41<V453000>for example I have all wagons equally long but the sprites differ in sizes
08:41<drac_boy>thanks eddi, was just wondering about the problem of ore being much heavier than coal
08:41<NGC3982>Afaik, drive-trough depots are not constructable with NewGRF?
08:41<V453000>is normal depot not enough?
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: i'd do separate wagons in that case anyway
08:42<NGC3982>V453000: That was not the question.
08:42<NGC3982>That should do it.
08:42<drac_boy>yeah I'm thinking about that option too ... hopper for most bulk loads except seperate shorty ones for ore alone
08:42<NGC3982>V453000: Does it look better then before? :)
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: those engines are horribly misaligned
08:43<drac_boy>I'm not surprised that usa had a lot of these short (not sure if theres another name for them) brown hopper cars specifically for ore alone
08:43<V453000>NGC3982: sorry ,it is equally horrible, overflow depot doesnt improve the throughput of the station
08:43<NGC3982>V453000: ;-(
08:43<V453000>but hey, no bridges ftw
08:44<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, OpenGFX+ grain/sugar beet wagons and engines from the Dutch Replacement Set.
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: how much "throughput" does a primary industry station need?
08:44<NGC3982>Unfortunately, the Dutch Replacement Set wagons have way to excessive speed limits.
08:45<V453000>not too much Eddi but if he asks what could be done better on a primary station ... ;)
08:45<NGC3982>V453000: The troughput is not the primary deer i hunt, when building a overflow depot. I wish to use it to prevent queues on my mainline, but still be able to expand the amount of trains visiting the station without having to deal with it while production increases.
08:46<NGC3982>Sure, a RORO station would be more effective
08:47<V453000>well then, if you hunt overflows,
08:48<NGC3982>Ill read trough it, thank you.
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09:11<SHADOW-XIII>so, noone knows who's responsible for ?
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>(really, you could simply use the search function in the forum or something)
09:13<__ln___>sir tim berners-lee is responsible for the http:// part.
09:13<SHADOW-XIII>are you serious? have you tried searching for it yourself ?
09:15<SHADOW-XIII>had to use google, found it at
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09:17<Eddi|zuHause>besides of the search being horribly slow, when i enter "" [including the ""] i get exactly one result...
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10:09<drac_boy>hm is a conflat just a flatcar with container latch frame built into the surface?
10:22<drac_boy>apparently so...only in uk for a short time too
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11:15*NGC3982 tries to figure out how to send a train between two stations with 30 days apart.
11:17<drac_boy>heh trying to get a specific payment rate? :)
11:17<NGC3982>No, i'm delivering supplies.
11:18<drac_boy>ohh that monthly thing
11:18<drac_boy>hm well which vehicle grfs are you using?
11:18<NGC3982>Dutch Replacement Set
11:18<NGC3982>Though, i just noticed that it took several months at max speed
11:18<NGC3982>So ill need to experiment with faster trains.
11:18<drac_boy>don't know whats in there so not sure I could help much sorry
11:19<NGC3982>Ah, there we are
11:19<NGC3982>17 days.
11:19<NGC3982>Engineering supplies every 34 days should be enough.
11:22<NGC3982>That should do it.
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11:27<NGC3982>When taking a look at this order table. The train does not leave when it has loaded more than 1%. It fills up completely and leaves full.
11:28<NGC3982>Can i set the train to only load 1% and then leave?
11:28<NGC3982>(Or closest to 1%)
11:32<drac_boy>NGC3982 as I recall the mini-in (or was that chrill? I forgot which had what anymore heh) let you set from 0% to 100% loading in tens ... it was a really nice idea :/
11:33<NGC3982>Oh, ok.
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12:01<drac_boy>btw I don't know if theres any other solutions to this but I was wondering about having a tiny grf that only basically has one 0ton wagon with no speed limit and no visible sprites for as a mean to be able to use autoreplace to strip now-useless brakevans and whats not out of a train?
12:01<drac_boy>right now it seem the only way is to manually stop trains in depot and take it off yourself
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12:05<Pinkbeast>It would be better to have a more general consist replacement tool.
12:06*NGC3982 builds more tracks.
12:06<drac_boy>Pinkbeast hmm like how would you describe that?
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12:09<NGC3982>This is actually quite hard
12:09<NGC3982>When adding a new line to a complete and well-runned circle system, it's almost impossible not to confuse one or two trains
12:10<NGC3982>In my case, it usually mean confusing one or two hundred trains.
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12:33<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: I am fixing cets push building already ;-)
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12:39<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: it certainly is oberhümer's fault :p
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>no... someone should "fix" nml so i can do partial compiles... :/
12:41<Ammler>it was an error caused because we do not cleanup build environement anymore, and I upgraded to opensuse 12.2 (Tumbleweed)
12:42<Ammler>maybe we should use Factory for the build env
12:43<Ammler>I hoped the distro upgrade hassle is gone with Tumbleweed, but sadly it is still based on current release
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12:45*drac_boy keeps wishing there weren't always overhead wires with the cursing trams -_-
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12:53<drac_boy>hm anyway had enough of poking around with things..going off for a while now -_-
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13:18*NGC3982 changes name from Henrik Johansson to Henrik Zugführer.
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13:21<Eddi|zuHause>"Zugführer" is (usually) the lead conductor (unless there is no conductor on the train)
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13:22<@peter1138>what if there's no orchestra?
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>what if there's no tree in the woods? :)
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13:33<NGC3982>Seriosly, that's a name in real terminology?
13:33<@peter1138>then it wouldn't be woods
13:34<NGC3982>"Führer" is a word well set in the Swedish language.
13:34<NGC3982>Really only known for one thing (except giggles).
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24819 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2012-12-13 18:45:23 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>basque - 3 changes by lutxiketa
13:45<@DorpsGek>malay - 51 changes by richz
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 3 changes by wojteks86
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
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14:54<@Alberth>why is it so quiet here nowadays?
14:55<@Terkhen>eight hellos isn't quiet :P
14:56<FLHerne>Because everyone ran out of things to say?
14:57<@Alberth>in the course of a few weeks?
14:57<FLHerne>We should just wait until andythenorth pops up and needs convincing not to drop some feature/plan/project again :P
14:58<@Terkhen>it was better when he wanted to do crazy stuff :P
14:58<FLHerne>Alberth: Did anything new happen that would inspire conversation in the last few weeks?
14:58<@Terkhen>that creates better discussions
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14:59<@Alberth>FLHerne: not in this channel :p
14:59<FLHerne>Terkhen: He does seem to be doing about as much as would be sane already :P
14:59<@Terkhen>two years ago it was quite more frequent, and with more random topics
14:59<FLHerne>BANDIT/CHIPS/HEQS/FIRS/Pixa/? :o
15:00*FLHerne wishes he was as productive :P
15:00<Rubidium>so, you want a conversation
15:00<@Alberth>so what are you doing now?
15:00<Rubidium>who's going to do the releases? I fear I don't have time for them :(
15:04<@Terkhen>not that I have much time lately either, but if there is some page explaining the process we (we=devs) could take turns on doing them or split the tasks somehow
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15:05*Terkhen is blissfully unaware of the whole release process
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15:06<Rubidium>Terkhen: (especially the prerelease stuff takes a lot of time)
15:06<@Terkhen>let's see
15:07<Rubidium>i.e. backporting (not needed for betas) and updating the changelog (hell for beta1)
15:08<frosch123>Terkhen: the big task is writing the changelog :)
15:08<Rubidium>as you need to go through all commits from branch of 1.2 and then see whether it's a new feature not backported, whether it's a bugfix for a bug existing before the branching (i.e. not fixing a trunk only bug, i.e. a bug that didn't make it to a released version)
15:09<frosch123>all features, changes, unbackported fixes since february :p
15:09<Rubidium>normally I did that when I had some free time and felt like doing it, but I haven't felt that way
15:10<@Terkhen>I would not mind updating the changelog this time, depending on how much time I have to do it :P
15:10<Rubidium>so it was an incremental process that didn't feel like that much work
15:10<@Terkhen>it should only take me... a week or something :D
15:11<frosch123>i guess one would start with a script, which reads the commitlog and filters all revisions which are mentioned in the 1.2. backports :p
15:11<@Terkhen>that's a good start, yes :)
15:12<Zuu>Rubidium: Is that To_do_for_release page supposed to exist? I get a page that allow me to create it.
15:12<Rubidium>add an s ;)
15:12<@Terkhen>I could adapt pm's script (meant for NewGRFs) to work with OpenTTD's changelog and to remove revisions mentioned as backported too, that should trim the work a bit
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15:15<@Terkhen>I'll start looking into it this sunday :)
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: there's also a "Triebfahrzeugführer" (informally "Lokführer"), which is the guy who is actually driving (he may also be the "Zugführer" in case he's alone on the train or it has automatic doors)
15:17<frosch123>isn't zugführer always the driver? while zugchef is the conductor?
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: no
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: anyway, "Führer" is too common of a word to get rid of just because one guy rode it to death :p
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: also, these terminologies are usually way older :)
15:23<+michi_cc>Where was the Führerbremsventil when you needed it? :p
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15:32<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: it would still have taken someone to actually use it...
15:43<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Hehe.
15:43<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Well, "führer" does not mean anything else but nazi stuff, for your average Swede.
15:45<NGC3982>It's stupid, yes.
15:45<NGC3982>But yeah.
15:45<NGC3982>I love the word, though.
15:45<NGC3982>So very, very german
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15:53<@Terkhen>hi drac_boy
15:55<drac_boy>how doing?
15:56<@Terkhen>it's been a tiring week, the only good thing is that it is almost ending :P
16:00<drac_boy>you much for talking about ingame vehicles or not really?
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16:01<@Terkhen>@get #openttd 3
16:01<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: Don't ask to ask, just ask
16:04<drac_boy>well terkhen what do you think about having triple level coaches in the game even although in real l ife they probably would be slow to load from ground level and be a bit tippy etc (both of which doesn't apply in a frictious game anyway)
16:05<frosch123>maybe you can solve the loading times by making them self-discharging
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16:06<@Terkhen>it may be because I'm tired, but I'm having trouble in making sense of your sentence... what's a triple level coach?
16:06<drac_boy>maybe...terkhen three floors ... as compared to doubledeck (or bilevel as usa sometimes calls it) cars
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16:06<drac_boy>frosch123 good one...I'm sure these 1px people wouldn't mind that :P
16:07<@Terkhen>I have never seen one of those
16:07<drac_boy>heh heh
16:07<drac_boy>Terkhen thats the point tbh...what do you think of having triple level coaches *in* the game? ;)
16:07<@Terkhen>with regard to road vehicle sets, I prefer simplicity over too many choices
16:07<frosch123>drac_boy: if you make the (n+1)-th floor have half the size of the n-th floor you can fit infinitely many into one wagon
16:07<drac_boy>frosch123 mm
16:07<@Terkhen>I would be happy with "faster, a bit more expensive and less capacity bus" and "slower, cheaper and high capacity bus", probably
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16:09<drac_boy>terkhen well I guess if you want to be extreme about it... single-floor bus with high speed since it can corner a bit hard ... double deck thats ok on speed but not good for long distance ... and triple deck thats slow but perfectly good for a loop circuit inside a dense city :)
16:09<frosch123>but maybe you just want to increase the capacity with the new meatgrinder+reassembling technology
16:09<drac_boy>or something like that
16:10<@Terkhen>inside cities, trams or metro trains would be better IMO
16:10<drac_boy>frosch123 you sure came up with a rather amusing idea. if you want to be futuristic about it you should borrow something from the Stargate:Atlantic tv show and basically have a computer box with external scanner/remateralizer that can fit 200 people into the space of a small crate?
16:10<drac_boy>if you know that tv series ... its the computer used aboard the Dart (as its called) ships
16:11<frosch123>well, i was more thinking of ijon tichy
16:11<frosch123>disassembling and assembling people into dust for transport
16:12<frosch123>and if something gets losts. no worries, there is always some replacement dust around
16:14<@Terkhen>heh, ijon tichy stories are awesome :P
16:14<@Terkhen>even if whenever I read them I feel like I'm losing a lot in the translation
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>i only know the TV version of that
16:15<frosch123>i have the book lying around, but did get around to actually read it
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>very sci-fi-trash TV :)
16:15<drac_boy>frosch123 you know...I only saw still pictures taken from the movie by users but theres actually a triple deck bus in one of the middle series harry potter movie
16:15<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: good trash is the best :)
16:16<drac_boy>we only see the first floor most of the times but we could see some minor details of the other two floors in it too tho
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>are they producing a 3rd season?
16:16<frosch123>only saw the first one was well :p
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen the 2nd season
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>was... strange...
16:17<drac_boy>the funny thing tho was how that bus could weave in and out of traffic lanes without leaning over too much but I'm sure that they shot it in slow motion then sped it up on the screen
16:17<drac_boy>that or doing it completely digitally
16:17<drac_boy>there is NO way a triple deck bus could do that without completely flopping over :)
16:17<frosch123>drac_boy: easy, just keep the bus in place, and move the road
16:18<drac_boy>frosch123 that would be tricky to do with the traffics I think, but I don't know how they shot these scenes so I wouldn't debate it tho
16:18<FLHerne>drac_boy: It didn't even fall over when it halved in width (including the passengers :P)
16:18<drac_boy>that part where the purple bus squashed to only 2-3ft width (magic maybe? heh) to squeeze between other two buses was a bit crazy tho
16:19<frosch123>pff, why make it big outside if you need the room inside
16:19<drac_boy>FLHerne I liked the part where as soon as it got back to normal width it suddenly sped up a lot with a loud backfire .. and we even saw the flame-barking exhaust port too :)
16:19<drac_boy>or how about coming to an abrupt halt in front of a parked car .. and still set off its alarm anyway
16:19<drac_boy>that one bus was quite silly
16:21<Zuu>Some days ago, I got a bright idea and wrote a draft for how to allow GSs to create custom GUIs. (mainly for the purpose of adding GUIs for their own logic - not to replace existing GUI)
16:21<drac_boy>frosch123 as I recall there were standard cot beds spread around on the first it may be the other two floors were more bedding space or for other purposes? again I don't really know tbh :)
16:22<Zuu>Though, there is still many things to figure out and then code. Allowing it to work also for multiplayer and network synchronization scares me a bit :-)
16:22<frosch123>Zuu: i read it :)
16:22<frosch123>but i think you make it work in multiplayer you have to make it more like the strings
16:22<frosch123>and put the windows into the savegame
16:22<frosch123>and only add some few dynamic contents via commands
16:24<frosch123>Zuu: but, i miss the usecase where to use those windows :)
16:24<frosch123>is it meant as a more advances gsquestion?
16:24<frosch123>or more like additonal info to the goal gui?
16:25<frosch123>i.e. who triggers opening of the window? the script or a client?
16:25<Zuu>You mean that the window types (eg. widget tree) go into savegame. There might also need to be a list of visible windows (eg. instances of window types) Then the live data for visible windows is the onyl thing to pass around using commands.
16:25<Zuu>I would like the tutorial to inject a button/window somewhere that allow users to recall the last tutorial message.
16:26<frosch123>tutorial is only singleplayer
16:26<Zuu>The only way I can do that now is to create a GSQuestion window that appears in the center of the screen and ask the user to move it to a better place.
16:26<frosch123>singleplayer always has only one human client
16:26<frosch123>multiplayer otoh is very different, it may have no human clients at all, or they might join somewhere in the middle
16:26<drac_boy>anyway any of you know the name for these certain wagons found on europe rails where the sides are not one solid wall but rather sliding metal doors and/or hardy-but-flexible tarp rollups?
16:27<drac_boy>makes it easier to load wide things in etc
16:27<Zuu>If GS gain the posibility to create windows also in MP, I would think that they will get used.
16:29<frosch123>well, gs would have to learn about clients then :p
16:30<Zuu>either that, or the window state versioning solution at the bottom need to be implemented
16:31<@Terkhen>good night
16:31<Zuu>basically, OpenTTD sync the state of the window among clients of a company and only actions by clients with the last state are accepted.
16:31<drac_boy>bye Terkhen :)
16:31<frosch123>Zuu: i think there are very different use cases for windows
16:31<frosch123>e.g. if one wants to add some more data to the goal gui, one client might want to press a button there to open another window
16:32<frosch123>but it makes absolutely no sense, if that window is then opened on all clients :p
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16:32<Zuu>Hmm... true
16:33<frosch123>so, i would rather expect some client<->gs connection for a single window
16:33<frosch123>and the gs knows when multiple clients open the same window
16:33<frosch123>so the gs does the syncing itself
16:33<frosch123>if there is something to sync
16:33<Zuu>yes I guess that is what it have too be like.
16:34<frosch123>and if gs know about single clients you are very near allowing all the current singleplayer stuff for multiplayer
16:34<frosch123>like scroling the screen for some client
16:34<frosch123>so, i wonder where to stop :p
16:34<Zuu>this is becomming a massive task :-)
16:34<frosch123>like disallowing construction for a single client :p
16:35<frosch123>or kicking a client who does too much terraforming :p
16:36<Zuu>Maybe I should just think of my current GUI need. Allowing a GS to define a few action triggers/buttons which appear in the interface which allow a user to send an event to the GS.
16:36<drac_boy>frosch123 that might be an interesting feature...kicking player who seem to stupidly flatten mountains just because they are too lazy to do anything except lay very flat and straight tracks
16:36<drac_boy>I really hate these people :|
16:37<frosch123>drac_boy: you know, you can already limit the terraforming amount?
16:37<drac_boy>btw I never knew how it worked but I recall a few specific servers that had some kind of yearly terraforming raise something 20 times and then you have to wait till next year
16:38<drac_boy>that was a lot more sane ^
16:38<frosch123>terraform_per_64k_frames = 4194304
16:38<frosch123>terraform_frame_burst = 4096
16:38<frosch123>^^ check those settings
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16:40<frosch123>same settings exist for planting trees and clearing land
16:40<Wolf01>is anybody playing gnomoria here?
16:45<frosch123>looks like minecraft without the fps part
16:45<@Alberth>perhaps add GUI stuff to newgrfs?
16:46<@Alberth>eg custom industry windows?
16:46<frosch123>what should they do?
16:46<drac_boy>hm guess I'll have to figure out my rail wagon issue tomorrow instead heh
16:46<@Alberth>frosch123: what we do in the engine now
16:47<@Alberth>display name of the industry, how much it produces
16:47<frosch123>we already have lots of such callbacks
16:48<frosch123>i don't know what kind of buttons industries might want to add to the gui
16:48<@Alberth>none I think
16:48<frosch123>like "increase production" makes no sense without making it cost at elast
16:49<frosch123>which does not sound like good gameplay either
16:49<@Alberth>perhaps an "kill industry" button in the manual industries :p
16:49<@Alberth>I agree it would be mostly displaying data much like what we do now
16:50<frosch123>i think newgrf can already display a lot of data, much better than gs actually
16:50<frosch123>interactive parts are more useful for gs
16:50<frosch123>as some kind of interface to select certani goals
16:51<frosch123>gs could add buttons to an industry or town to make the gs do magic around there
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16:53<frosch123>but at some point that would need client side scripts
16:53<frosch123>the server could send a client-side script via the savegame, which does gui tasks at the client
16:54<frosch123>the client-side script would not be able to execute commands like the server side gs, but it could send messages to the server gs
16:54<@Alberth>sounds bloody complicated
16:54<frosch123>Zuu: ^^ how about that for gui stuff in mulitplayer?
16:54<frosch123>Alberth: more complicated than remote controlling client guis from the server? :p
16:55<@Alberth>I am not sure you need a gui
16:55<frosch123>and the client always wating for a server response before something happens :p
16:55<@Alberth>Instead I can do something to show my intentions, eg build a station
16:55<Zuu>sounds like what javascript is for server-side solutions on the web :-)
16:56<frosch123>Alberth: he, wasn't the topic about guis? :p
16:56<frosch123>but yeah, for now we always use the hq :)
16:56<@Alberth>Zuu: let's add xml too :)
16:57<Zuu>Alberth: Play the tutorial and come back again and say that GS don't need GUI :-)
16:57<frosch123>Zuu: the tutorial only needs something like a mission book as seen in many games
16:58<frosch123>like the goal gui, but with actual pages and a lot of text
16:58<@Alberth>we could add gui for the tutorial
16:58<@Alberth>ie code some otherwise unused windows
16:58<Zuu>Maybe that is what we should do. Make a tutorial tailored GUI that GSs can create.
16:59<frosch123>don't make it "tutorial" like, but more like "mission" like :)
16:59<frosch123>so it can be used in all scripted-scenario contexts
16:59<@Alberth>"your mission is to learn OpenTTD."
16:59<Zuu>A wizard window with next/previus buttons?
16:59<frosch123>technically nocargoal and silliconvalley are scripted scenarios
17:00<@Alberth>"this GUI will automatically close in 10 seconds..."
17:00<frosch123>Zuu: the goal window, with items than can be added, and checked, and a number of stories next to it
17:00<frosch123>the goals stay in place, the story has prev/next buttons
17:01<@Alberth>add "like" buttons to the goals :p
17:01<frosch123> <- something like that
17:01<Zuu>So something like the online content window. A list on the left side with all goals. On the right side we show the story related to the selected goal?
17:01<frosch123>it is somewhat tied to the goal system
17:02<frosch123>when you complete some goals (not necessarily all) a new page is added
17:02<frosch123>and some goals are added or removed
17:02<frosch123>(removal may be independent of completion)
17:02<@Alberth>have a tab 'completed goals'
17:02<frosch123>Zuu: somewhat, but the link between goals and logbook should only be optional
17:03<frosch123>i.e. you should be able to prev/next without clicking on a goal, and not every goal needs an associated page
17:03<Zuu>So the logbook is a separate window.
17:03<frosch123>also goals should be possible to have checkmarks for completion, or it should be possible to strike them out if they no longer apply
17:04<Zuu>So what we have is a separate window: StoryWindow which GSs can add pages. A goal can then refer to a story page.
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17:04<frosch123>it could be two windows, they could be linked like smallmap/industrychain window, or they could be some expand/collapse thingie in one window
17:05<Zuu>frosch123: I made a patch to allow goals to be marked as completed as well as showing their completeness in a separate column. The reaction I got was "why did you make this useless patch" :-p
17:05<frosch123>like the income: small window only shows goals, big window shows goals and story
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17:05<frosch123>Zuu: was it useless? i don't remember :p
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17:09<@Alberth>good night
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17:10<frosch123>Zuu: i hope the luukland guy did not put you off :p
17:10<Zuu>Actually he did make me focus on other patches for some time. But mabye I shouldn't have let him.
17:10<frosch123>they only think about their own stuff (which is fine), and complain about everything else (which is not)
17:12<InducTrackerOTTD>I'm not finding an about page in the wiki, what's unknown horizons game like, I womder
17:13<frosch123>i believe it's an anno clone
17:13<frosch123>though i never played anno :p
17:13<frosch123>basically you have an island
17:13<frosch123>build stuff to get inhabitants
17:13<frosch123>and make money
17:14<frosch123>i played it a few, but i don't think it fits a ottd player :)
17:14<frosch123>for me space was very restrictive
17:14<InducTrackerOTTD>I'm also an occasional civ player
17:14<frosch123>you could fill islands within very few years, move to the next island and fill that one
17:15<frosch123>but you could not build really big stuff
17:15*InducTrackerOTTD reads the premise for Anno 2070
17:15<frosch123>also it is unfinished, so it gets quite repetitive quickly since there is not yet any advanced stuff
17:16<Zuu>Is the game war-free?
17:17<frosch123>there are pirates
17:17<frosch123>but in the dev stage i played, there were no battles
17:19<Zuu>In the current version, the logbook have bookmarks that stick out for a few pages.
17:20<Zuu>Basically tabs, but with a nice visual touch :-)
17:21<frosch123>apparently it is heading for a combat system
17:22<frosch123>but there were none at the stage i played
17:22<frosch123>so, likely that is why it was so pointless :p
17:22<InducTrackerOTTD>You know, I used to play a couple sailing oriented games a long while ago and forgot what they were called. One was about running a ship or perhaps a small fleet of 'em on the carribean in a kind of tune your pirate ship exp grind adventure
17:22<InducTrackerOTTD>and another one, pretty darn cool, conquering ports and building warships from on land resources, I think
17:23<InducTrackerOTTD>It was a pretty neat simplified sailing ship naval combat sim, turn based IIRC
17:23<frosch123>never heard of those; when i think about ship games i think about stuff like "ports of calls"
17:24<frosch123>or the remakes of that
17:25<InducTrackerOTTD>both were 2d, very simple kinda graphics games IIRC
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17:26<InducTrackerOTTD>I don't think the latter game I vaguely recall had a trading aspect to it
17:26<frosch123>i always preferred the making-money games :)
17:27<frosch123>i liked colonization with cheats
17:27<frosch123>you could lock down the competitors to stop annoying you
17:27<NGC3982>Pro-tip: Zeus - Master of olympus
17:27<frosch123>spawn a town of units at the beginning (so you can do big stuff before time runs out)
17:27<frosch123>but sadly you could not get around the 256 units on map limit :/
17:28<InducTrackerOTTD>The only economy/profit oriented game I got into ever was tt really
17:28<frosch123>and trading routes and pathfinding failed, so you had to move every single wagon yourself
17:29<frosch123>i also liked settlers I, but not to demolish the competitors, but to fill the entire map with farms and mines :p
17:29<frosch123>but sadly there was also a limit of workers
17:29<NGC3982>Settlers 3 (i think), that Heritage of Kings one - is really nice.
17:30<frosch123>and warehoused could not display more than 1000 units
17:30<frosch123>so, you did not exactly know how much you had
17:30<frosch123>the newer settlers are boring in comparison to settlers I
17:30<frosch123>they make it more like rts, and less like a sandbox game
17:30<frosch123>mines run out of resources all the time
17:31<frosch123>and farms produce way too few stuff
17:31<frosch123>settlers I was somewhat like ottd, you had to build complicated road networks to move all cargo around
17:31<frosch123>(esp. because the cargo movement was very restrictive)
17:31<NGC3982>This is odd.
17:32<NGC3982>I'm using the Dutch Replacement set.
17:32<frosch123>in settlers II you never had much cargo for very long to be able to really block your network
17:32<frosch123>that was kind of sad :p
17:32<NGC3982>I'm trying to autoreplace a freight train with a pax train, and it does not work with a specific engine.
17:32*Zuu liked settlers too for its rich set of buildings and relativly long construction stage.
17:32<Zuu>At least when I played it, I took time to get to the point of taking down the enemies.
17:32<NGC3982>I can build the train with the new engine manually, so i guess autoreplacing should work.
17:32<frosch123>Zuu: you should play widelands then
17:33<NGC3982>And i can autoreplace other engines.
17:33<frosch123>it has even longer cargo chains
17:33<drac_boy>NGC3982 could it be because of the incompactible cargo?
17:33<frosch123>esp. the barbarians are really weird :p
17:33<NGC3982>drac_boy: It shouldn't be, since i can build and run the train manually.
17:33<NGC3982>As you see in the picture, train 87 is the new one.
17:33<NGC3982>Sure, it's a pax engine, but i fail to see how that affects autoreplacing.
17:34<frosch123>NGC3982: you see the message at the bottom of the screeen?
17:34<drac_boy>NGC3982 no I mean autoreplace will not work if eg wagon 1 only refits to passenger and wagon 2 only refits to freight ..... or the grf has a limit on which locomotives can be used with certain wagons (reminds me of ukrs and why I stopped using it)
17:34<drac_boy>otherwise thats all I can think to tell you
17:34<frosch123>"vehicle is not available" means the engine is no longer buildable
17:34<frosch123>it retired
17:34<NGC3982>frosch123: Yes, not related. That is older vehicles.
17:34<NGC3982>As i said, i can build both engines and wagons manually.
17:35<NGC3982>drac_boy: Oh, that sounds resonable.
17:35<frosch123>well, then check the newer news :p
17:35<frosch123>autoreplace should always spawn a message when it fails
17:35<NGC3982>Can it be that the autoreplace refuses, since the engine itself is not refitable to oil
17:35<NGC3982>Let's see.
17:36<frosch123>ah, yes
17:36<NGC3982>frosch123: The thing is, they are not even trying.
17:36<Zuu>frosch123: Thanks for the tip.
17:36<NGC3982>Even when forced in depot.
17:36<frosch123>if both engines are refittable and the new one cannot carry the old cargo, it won'T replace
17:36<NGC3982>Ah, that explains it.
17:36*NGC3982 sells a lot of trains.
17:37<frosch123>replace it with an engine without capacity first :p
17:37<NGC3982>Oh, ok
17:37<frosch123>two-step autoreplace :)
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19:00<drac_boy>any of you think 40km/h probably is a reasonable minimum speed cutoff for anything to do with 1920+ vehicles that runs on flanges or tires anyway? :)
19:00*drac_boy just had to ask
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20:47<drac_boy>hi Bad_Brett :)
20:47<Bad_Brett>hey drac_boy!
20:48<drac_boy>how're you?
21:04<Bad_Brett>i'm fine... a bit drunk though. how are you?
21:09<drac_boy>heh...too drunk to read or not? ;)
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21:16<drac_boy>so just going to sit there till you're finally all sober or what? :P
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21:19<V453000>when you are enhanced you can get various ideas :P
21:21<drac_boy>I doubt that :)
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21:41<drac_boy>so what you doing V453000? :P
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---Logclosed Fri Dec 14 00:00:07 2012