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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-14

---Logopened Fri Dec 14 00:00:07 2012
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05:55<NGC3982>Morning
05:55<@Alberth>moin
05:56<NGC3982>Another boring day to do nothing.
06:02<@Alberth>you can't invent something nice to do?
06:04<NGC3982>I did last night, actually
06:04<NGC3982>I made a couple of experiments with electromechanical elements
06:05<NGC3982>The experiment worked out nicely, but the results where horrible.
06:05<NGC3982>10 centiliters of water, cooled from 23.5 to 11.2 degrees centigrade, in 32 minutes.
06:05<NGC3982>With a 60W peltier.
06:06<NGC3982>Alberth: But yes, i'm determined to complete a 512^2 map with ECS.
06:06<__ln___>Isn't "centigrade" some sillly unitedstatesism?
06:09<NGC3982>Centigrade and celcius is the same thing.
06:09<@Alberth>Wikipedia: "Celsius, also known as centigrade..."
06:10<@Alberth>and I don't think the US knows about celsius at all :p
06:10<NGC3982>Don't know why i used it instead of celcius, though.
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06:44<drac_boy>hi
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06:51<NGC3982>Ah, there we are
06:51<NGC3982>I noticed, using ECS on a large scale looks impossible without drawn out timetabling
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07:04<drac_boy>NGC3982 mm?
07:04<V453000>that ecs is shit
07:04<V453000>in translation
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07:14<drac_boy>NGC3982 just wondering what you mean about that?
07:17<NGC3982>Well, i noticed that it is much more handy to use timetables and depots, then simply waiting for cargo overflow.
07:20<drac_boy>hm quick question for one of you either way - I know that eg 2'D2 would translate to a 4-8-4 but .. how do you do that for garratts with the plus in middle? eg 0-4-0+0-4-0
07:23<@peter1138>B+B
07:23<drac_boy>oh so just leave it the same...hm
07:23<drac_boy>thanks
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07:25<drac_boy>I don't quite understand the entire UIC system yet after all :->
07:27<drac_boy>at least I figured out that 'h' is superheated and 'n' isnt
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07:51<@peter1138>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UIC_classification
07:51<@peter1138>not really hard to find
07:52<@Alberth>V453000: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/attach_coal.png Trying to attach a coal wagon, it is not allowed, but I don't understand why
07:54<drac_boy>peter problem is garratts aren't same as mallets technically
07:54<@Alberth>hmm, perhaps the opengfx+ trains are messing up
07:55<drac_boy>Alberth thats NUTS isn't it?
07:55<@Alberth>yep
07:56<drac_boy>I still remember seeing the earlier locomotives list....that remind me I should check if thered any updated ones
07:56<@Alberth>the error is at least from it
07:56*drac_boy found some of the names silly
07:56<@Alberth>drac_boy: it beats "loco1", "loco2", ... :)
07:57<drac_boy>:P
08:04<drac_boy>that reminds me I still wonder if "road unit" is an american term or not
08:10<efess>As an american, I've never heard of "road unit"
08:10<drac_boy>efess well it was more or less from the early diesels
08:11<+michi_cc>Alberth: My guess: The coal wagon is from OGFX+ and V's philosophy is incomatible with mixing.
08:12<drac_boy>switcher was something like eg SW600 which usually dealt with short distance spottings ... but road switcher was more toward the baldwin units which could do both switching and mainline running altogether ... and road unit well yeah just the mainline
08:12<@Alberth>michi_cc: sounds plausible, so the only problem is the somewhat difficult to interpret error message :)
08:12<drac_boy>many of the early terms became a bit obsoleted with the General Purpose .. or as some people still like to call them - geeps
08:13<drac_boy>efess of course there was the other thing that as far as I know was only done by Lima ... 'transfer units' .. basically lot of horsepower through six axles with low gearings ... they were good at clearing out the yard only to dump it into another yard :)
08:14<drac_boy>or like they say "everything but the kitchen sink"
08:14<drac_boy>again MUed geeps obsoleted these particular specialized locomotives tho as usual
08:16<drac_boy>alberth could be it wasn't meant to be mixed with other grfs? I don't know :p
08:17<@Alberth>drac_boy: perhaps, but shouldn't it say that more explicitly then?
08:17<drac_boy>do it have to? you're not really supposed to mix full grfs together anyway are you?
08:18<@Alberth>how is it a full grf? it contains only trains
08:18<@Alberth>and it does not protest when adding the opengfx+ trains
08:19<@Alberth>At the time of trying I was not even aware I had a wagon of another newgrf
08:31<drac_boy>sorry was busy trying to figure out **** UIC as usual
08:31<drac_boy>you have a point there alberth
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08:54<NGC3982>Hm, let's see
08:54<NGC3982>In ECS: http://i.imgur.com/Uo97F.png
08:54<NGC3982>Shouldn't transported and produced amounts of coal increase?
08:55<drac_boy>what you mean? did you wait a few months already anyway?
09:02<@Terkhen>hello
09:03<drac_boy>hi Terkhen
09:03<drac_boy>had any good sleep? ;)
09:03<@Terkhen>not really, but that does not matter because it's already weekend for me
09:03<@Terkhen>I'll sleep as much as I want tomorrow :P
09:05<MNIM>NGC3982: I think you need higher % transported
09:06<MNIM>have you tried feeder systems?
09:07<NGC3982>No, not yet. Like busses?
09:07<MNIM>I use trams, but yeah
09:07<NGC3982>With full load?
09:07<MNIM>Nope
09:08<MNIM>that might actually be part of your problem.
09:08<MNIM>Full load is good for running a profit, not so good for increasing production
09:08<NGC3982>Oh
09:08<drac_boy>MNIM actually I've used full load all the times and still manage to get close to 80% at times
09:09<NGC3982>My impression was the opposite.
09:09<drac_boy>the problem is....do not use long trains :)
09:09<MNIM>drac_boy: depebds how you do it, eh
09:09<NGC3982>So, having the trains where they are, and a non-full load tram feeder?
09:11<NGC3982>Ill try it.
09:11<NGC3982>Oh wait.
09:11<NGC3982>Transported has a literal meaning?
09:12<NGC3982>Not on how much trains i have waiting, but how many trains leave?
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09:13<NGC3982>Well yeah, that seems to work.
09:13<NGC3982>Thanks.
09:13<MNIM>%transported refers to how much has left the station, is my understanding
09:17<MNIM>Here, let me show you my system on one of my most succesful stations: (WARNING unresized screenshot) http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/1/2248324/OTTD/Feeder%20system.png
09:18<MNIM>As you can see, I need to upgrade transport capacity. again.
09:21<NGC3982>nice tram :)
09:22<NGC3982>Nice*
09:23<NGC3982>MNIM: http://i.imgur.com/QvuXG.png
09:23<NGC3982>First try.
09:23<NGC3982>A bit sloppy, but it seems to work.
09:23<NGC3982>I don't have trams yet.
09:23<NGC3982>Feeder systems like that are so ugly :(.
09:23<NGC3982>At least your's look good.
09:28<drac_boy>correct me if I'm wrong but locomotive with multiply hp ranges is rather impossible to code yet?
09:32<NGC3982>"hp ranges"?
09:33<__ln___>what a failure this HBO Nordic is beginning to look like...
09:34<NGC3982>__ln___: How is that? It seems to work nicely around here, so far.
09:36<drac_boy>NGC3982 sorry heh .. not sure how to word it...
09:36<__ln___>NGC3982: mandatory 12-month contract. no HD content on PC or Mac. no client for any game console.
09:36<NGC3982>drac_boy: ;-)
09:36<NGC3982>__ln___: Sweet jesus.
09:36<NGC3982>12 month lockups are shit
09:37<NGC3982>Why does companies like these have such a hard time with monthly subscriptions
09:37<NGC3982>Like Spotify
09:37<NGC3982>Don't pay, don't use. Pay? Use.
09:37<drac_boy>one large example i can give you tho NGC3982 is multi-engine gensets ... eg three 600hp engines .. can run with single 600hp for light jobs but have 1800hp to deal with heavy cuts or simply for running at fast schedule on the open line
09:38<NGC3982>__ln___: What's the english word for Inkasso.
09:38<__ln___>Yet Netflix has a monthly subscription, HD content on PC and Mac, client for all three game consoles.
09:38<NGC3982>drac_boy: Ah, like half traction?
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09:39<NGC3982>__ln___: The thing is, locking people up in periods sucks ass even for companies. Collection fees (inkasso and similar) are -never- profitable.
09:39<drac_boy>well traction is still same, its just the hp that has changed? but mm yeah
09:39<NGC3982>And being locked up is very ..bad PR.
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09:39<Rouche>hi all
09:39<Rouche>Salut
09:39<NGC3982>drac_boy: I think i understand.
09:39<@Terkhen>hi Rouche
09:39<NGC3982>__ln___: Sorry, but that shit got me winded up.
09:40<__ln___>NGC3982: something like "debt collection"?
09:40<NGC3982>Yeah
09:40<Rouche>who want to play OpenTDD now ?
09:40<NGC3982>I fail to see how that is useful
09:40<drac_boy>mind you when they initially tested the uk Deltic locomotive they ran it twice on the same route, once with one engine only and again with both engines on. interestingly enough it didn't suffer too much with the single engine but then again it was fresh out of the shop with an empty test train tho
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09:41<NGC3982>The Spotify (and as it seems, Netflix) model is to simply let people use what they pay. They can save huge man hours on dept collection and -lot's- of bad PR due to angry customers.
09:43<__ln___>NGC3982: btw, it might be that "winded up" -> "wound up".
09:44<NGC3982>Yes
09:44<NGC3982>Old watchmaker habit.
09:44<drac_boy>for now I guess only a diesel-battery locomotive could work..just give it almost zero runcost when idle :)
09:44<NGC3982>Most of our companies in our outsourcer projects have changed to "Spotify-ish" models of payment, by the way.
09:45<NGC3982>Instead of monthly products being sent with invoice, a single invoice is sent a month before the actual product. No pay, no product.
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09:45<NGC3982>No dept collection, no bad PR, and no [curse word] fuzz.
09:46<drac_boy>heh
09:47<NGC3982>Back in the nineties and early 2000, dept collection could be partialy profitable in Scandinavia (and specially in Finland and Norway), but new (and sensible) law changes makes it more, and more expencive.
09:47<NGC3982>In fact, as far as i know, dept collection cannot be profitable by legal definition in Finland.
09:48<NGC3982>Expensive*
09:48<NGC3982>Partially*
09:49<NGC3982>MNIM: The transported % quite quickly decreased again. http://i.imgur.com/EJ2eh.png
09:50<NGC3982>MNIM: Even though, i can't see that the coal production has really increased.
09:50<MNIM>hmmmmh
09:50<NGC3982>And as you can see, i have buffed up the trains. :P
09:51<NGC3982>It might be that the small increase in production was enough to lower the production level.
09:51<MNIM>hmmmmmmh, shouldn't be
09:51<MNIM>how much is waiting at drunway south?
09:51<NGC3982>Nothing.
09:52<NGC3982>It might go up to 15-30 tonnes while there is a gap between the trucks.
09:52<NGC3982>Should i try adding more trucks, or even build a new feeder?
09:52<MNIM>Do you use 'load if available' -> 'transfer and leave empty' orders?
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09:52<NGC3982>I use transfer, but not load if available.
09:52<NGC3982>I don't use any load parameter.
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09:52<MNIM>eh, yeah, that's the default :P
09:53<NGC3982>Oh
09:53<NGC3982>That's the default
09:53<MNIM>hmmmmh. so the trucks are empty if they come back?
09:53<NGC3982>Come back?
09:53<NGC3982>Yes, when returning to Drunway South, they are empty.
09:54<NGC3982>Either by transfer, or by the fact that they didn't pic anything up.
09:54<MNIM>hmmmmh. then I can think of only one other possible explanation, do you use fluctuating economies?
09:55<MNIM>could be that the production naturally decreased again due to dropping economy. in that case, production should go up again soon.
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09:55<NGC3982>I have no idea.
09:55<NGC3982>I see.
09:56<NGC3982>I'm at 67% transported now.
09:56<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/MGD3E.png
09:57<MNIM>hmmmh, I see production dropped even further again. :/
09:57<MNIM>oddd.
09:59<NGC3982>Let's try this: Two feeder stations, one with full load and one without.
10:01<NGC3982>Yeah, that works.
10:02<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/BIeBf.png
10:03<NGC3982>It looks ugly, but it seems to work.
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10:33<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/Keinx.png
10:33<NGC3982>Acceptable? ;)
10:35<__ln___>looks 404 to me
10:35<__ln___>oh, not anymore
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10:58<andythenorth>doom is fricking awesome
10:58*andythenorth is on a nostalgia trip again
10:58<andythenorth>maybe I have to get a wad editor? o_O
10:59<NGC3982>Doom <3.
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10:59*Rubidium is trying to do that as well... but with colobot
11:01<andythenorth>ho ho
11:01<andythenorth>something new :)
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11:06<V453000>Alberth: NUTS engines only work with NUTS wagons, no others
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11:11<andythenorth>neat
11:11<andythenorth>narrow gauge http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=417633&nseq=10
11:12<V453000>looks like random train with wood to me :P
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11:58<@Alberth>V453000: ok, perhaps you could improve the error message?
11:59<V453000>I guess that would be suitable
12:03<@Alberth>thank you :)
12:05<V453000>nothing to thank for :) thanks for your suggestion
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13:33<NGC3982>That looks nice.
13:33<NGC3982>A good old mult.
13:44<V453000>Alberth: Can only attach cargo engines or NUTS cargo wagons. I suppose it can be as simple as that?
13:45<V453000>hm well it applies to engines as well
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24820 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt polish.txt) (2012-12-14 18:45:14 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>czech - 7 changes by TheLamer
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 5 changes by wojteks86
13:46<@Alberth>I did not realize it was a wagon from another newgrf, so for me "cannot attach a wagon from another NewGRF" would have helped
13:46<@Alberth>but perhaps that's not good enough in general
13:47<V453000>right
13:47<V453000>hm
13:47<V453000>the issue is, there are many train class attach rules in NUTS itself
13:47<V453000>which are ofc more important for the error message
13:48<V453000>im just considering to add a "Can only attach NUTS vehicles" or something similar to another line
13:55<V453000>im pretty sure readme mentions it though :PP
13:55<V453000>... ehm the 10k characters readme
13:56<V453000>I should probably write a more descriptive guide on NUTS and then make an actually useful readme which would be actually readable
13:56<V453000>nobody reads this much shit, if they actually are nice enough to even open the readme
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14:03<andythenorth>is everyone bloody shopping? My internet is insanely slow again
14:04<@Alberth>hi andy
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14:09<@Terkhen>see you tomorrow
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14:10<@Alberth>moin
14:11<andythenorth>qu*k
14:11<V453000>moo
14:11<frosch123>hai :)
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14:22<andythenorth>ho ho
14:22<andythenorth>956k downloads of grfs I've made
14:22<andythenorth>better than 0 I guess :)
14:24<@Alberth>almost 1kk !
14:24<V453000>956k? :D wow
14:25<andythenorth>all versions
14:25<andythenorth>it's not 956k individual users ;)
14:27<V453000>still
14:28<V453000>lol what I have 42k
14:28<V453000>I understand how do you have 950k then :)
14:29<@Alberth>make more newgrfs :)
14:29<frosch123>when will andy surpass ottd? :p
14:29<andythenorth>hmm
14:30<andythenorth>I have 5.7k hg revs
14:30<andythenorth>ottd is 25k?
14:30<NGC3982>andythenorth: That's fantastic.
14:31<NGC3982>Time well spent, then?
14:31<frosch123>andythenorth: that's interesting, your ratio of downloads per revision matches the one of ottd :)
14:32<frosch123>@calc 950/5.7
14:32<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 166.666666667
14:32<andythenorth>players just tick all, right?
14:32<frosch123>@calc 4630/25
14:32<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 185.2
14:32<andythenorth>biab
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14:32<frosch123>@calc 4000/25
14:32<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 160
14:32<frosch123>i should not count ogfx and friends :)
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14:52<FLHerne>Alberth: I was looking at the other channel, do you mean that 'don't open windows for cloned vehicles' thing?
14:52<@Alberth>yes
14:54<FLHerne>That thing seems to be the most obvious one-line patch not to have been added yet :P
14:54<FLHerne>Would save me a lot of closing windows
14:55<FLHerne>Especially with RVs, which tend to require large quanties
14:55<@Alberth>but it was added
14:55<frosch123>FLHerne: it has been added
14:55<FLHerne>Yay!
14:55<frosch123>and the patch on flyspray was not multiplayer safe
14:55<@Alberth>just use backspace :p
14:55<frosch123>so, even if it was only one line, it was wrong
14:56<FLHerne>Well, now I'm fractionally more cheerful :-)
14:57<frosch123>sorry, was just annoyed about some whiner on fs :)
14:57<frosch123>http://who-t.blogspot.de/2011/03/how-to-dos-developer.html <- i always wonder whether posting that is offensive :p
15:01<SpComb>whatever was in debian stable three days ago
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15:02<frosch123>i wouldn't even know whether stable is squeeze of wheezy :p
15:02<frosch123>*or
15:03<SpComb>I gather wheezy is still in lets-break-everything-for-multiarch mode
15:04<Rubidium>Jessie!
15:04<Rubidium>wheezy is almost oldstable ;)
15:05<frosch123>maybe they drop wheezy, and try to stabelize jessie instead then
15:05<frosch123>so, squeeze stays :p
15:06<Rubidium>Jessie is stable enough to be declared stable; it's so stable I haven't even seen bug reports for it ;)
15:06<frosch123>you mean the bug reporting tool is broken?
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15:36<Wolf01>o/
15:38<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24821 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt newgrf.cpp) (2012-12-14 20:38:02 UTC)
15:38<@DorpsGek>-Add: When using a non-release version of OpenTTD and the basegraphics are missing some sprites, also suggest to use a non-release version of the basegraphics.
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16:41<drac_boy>hi
16:43<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/filedate.png <- i guess displaying the full timestamp of the local timezone is not the right thing to do :p
16:48<Rubidium>maybe use the ls method
16:48<frosch123>time only when today?
16:48<Rubidium>yes, and day/month only when it's this year
16:48<Rubidium>then in the game details show the full date + time
16:49<Rubidium>*maybe* slightly more information/slightly different
16:50<frosch123>strftime only knows %c %x and %X
16:50<Rubidium>day-of-week + time if it was in the last 168 hours
16:50<frosch123>the rest is not locale-dependant
16:50<frosch123>alternatively we could only display the date, and use ottd ingame date format
16:51<Rubidium>day-of-week + day-of-month + month if it was in the last year
16:51<Rubidium>otherwise month + year
16:51<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/XwZIy.png
16:51<NGC3982>Is that alright?
16:51<frosch123>NGC3982: don't put path signals behind junctions
16:52<NGC3982>Like the two signals for the exit?
16:52<frosch123>the exit signals should be in front of the merge junction, not after the exit junction
16:52<__ln___>what do you mean only %c %x %X is locale-dependent?
16:52<+glx>path signal MUST be where it's safe to wait
16:52<frosch123>%c is date and time according to LC_TIME
16:52<frosch123>%x and %X are date or time only according to LC_TIME
16:52<NGC3982>I should really be able to remove them all together.
16:53<frosch123>i am not aware of any other way to figure out the various date formats
16:53<frosch123>except using the ottd ingame ones :p
16:53<Rubidium>frosch123: IMO it should use the ingame format
16:53<drac_boy>just wanted to check with someone outside north america but is "steeplecab locomotive" a generic or american term?
16:53<frosch123>Rubidium: that would mean only date, no time
16:54<Rubidium>*unless* we implement the same for times
16:54<Rubidium>which would be beneficial for those timetable/clock-in-game guys
16:54<frosch123>date is only reordering
16:54<frosch123>time has weird thing like 12/24
16:54<Rubidium>and I reckon they already added such things
16:55<frosch123>unless we define 12 as medieval and only use 24 :)
16:58<frosch123>btw. en_US translation of STR_FORMAT_DATE_TINY STR_FORMAT_DATE_LONG and STR_CONFIG_SETTING_DATE_FORMAT_IN_SAVE_NAMES_LONG STR_CONFIG_SETTING_DATE_FORMAT_IN_SAVE_NAMES_SHORT look wrong to me
16:58<frosch123>shouldn't they swap day and month?
16:58*NGC3982 removed the signals.
16:59<Rubidium>the departure board thing doesn't have a 12hr clock
16:59<Rubidium>so I guess it'll be easiest to go with a 24hr clock (with only hours and minutes)
17:00<__ln___>24-hour clock will confuse americans
17:01<frosch123>__ln___: they only play between 00:00 and 11:59 european time anyway
17:03<__ln___>fair enough
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17:32<NGC3982>@calc 30.5775 / 10
17:32<@DorpsGek>NGC3982: 3.05775
17:33<NGC3982>@calc 3.05775 * 3.78541
17:33<@DorpsGek>NGC3982: 11.5748374275
17:38<drac_boy>just wondring if anyone saw my short question above before?
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17:47<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i just was at the christmas party of the company, and when i left i said to the boss "until next christmas"... who thinks that was a stupid idea? :p
17:48<drac_boy>heh no idea :P
17:49<drac_boy>anyway beside steeplecabs .. I'm wondering if theres even anything that can be said about a 2-8-0 verus 4-8-0 from the similar chassis or its really just down to the company's personal preference at purchase time?
17:51<Wolf01>nighty night
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17:52<Eddi|zuHause>2 axle bogies usually mean better stability at higher speeds
17:52-!-oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>but there are more complicated steering mechanisms with one leading axle that may compensate that as well
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>so the axle scheme doesn't tell the whole story
17:54<drac_boy>hmm I hadn't even thought about that kind of thing at all...thanks
17:55<drac_boy>at least I do know that trailing axles sometimes were for weight spread of the firebox and/or just simply to make it equally as stable in reverse speeds
17:56<drac_boy>nothing like seeing an used 2-6-0 being refitted into an odd looking 2-6-2 due to lighter rails on the new line
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>some of the very early electric engines had axle schemes like 2'C1', and they went much better with the 2 axles in front than the 1 axle
17:56<drac_boy>heh early...that reminds me of a particular article about why the last steam locomotive in north america was actually the GG1
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>(that would be 4-6-2)
17:57<drac_boy>it kinda does make sense in a way tho... it had pony and trailing axles ... cast iron bell ... chassis being built by a steam tender shop ... steam era boiler heater (before that eventually was replaced by diesel era ones) .. and the cab sightline was alike to a steam loco's as well
17:57<drac_boy>(thats what the article writer said)
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the german diesel engines in the 60s had extra steam boilers for heating the train (until electric heating was widespread enough to remove those)
17:58<drac_boy>yeah nothing like a diesel or electric locomotive sitting at the station platform and a quiet chugging coming from inside there :)
18:00<drac_boy>mind you I remember one rather silly photo someone was lucky to take .. it was of a historic DR diesel on head of a special passenger train .. it was throwing out so much white smoke that the photographer jokingly captioned "does it think its actually a steam locomotive?"
18:00<drac_boy>I suspect in reality it was probably just too much pressure buildup in the boiler that it was letting off a long escape
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>the first electric engines (1910-1920 era) first had coal-heated boilers, not sure why they didn't heat them electrically
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18:01<drac_boy>mm i don't know about that one but could it be because the coaches only had steam heat lines alone at the time? (the lights would had been recharged off a single small axle generator in that case)
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: i reecently saw one such photo with black smoke
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: allegedly, one of the power units in the diesel engine was broken, so the other one had to produce excessive power to get the train moving
18:02<drac_boy>mind you when the Amfleet (aka modern) coaches first arrived onto Amtrak line ... they had to be coupled with a special "headend power car" to be useable behind the GG1's... I suspect they never designed or wanted to reofit the GG1 with train electric power lines anyway
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: yes, electrically heated wagons were rare at that time (bavaria had some), but if you create steam for heating, it doesn't really matter if the heat comes from coal or from electricity
18:04<drac_boy>UP had some trains that were hauled by modern carbody diesels but the first car in the train was actually a steam boiler "van" built out of an old boxcar
18:04<drac_boy>I know I had seen some photos of french diesel trains with such steam heating car attachment too
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: i have never seen one, but germany had special heating cars as well
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes, the steam output of one engine wasn't enough, so they had to have extra heating
18:07<drac_boy>not sure if you want look but http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bnHC19.jpg thats a home conversion ... take an old F-B unit .. gut a bit of the engine .. shorten fuel tank to add water tank in space .. pull any MU cables out .. and there you go a cheap steam heating car
18:07<drac_boy>they were not that common but still numerous enough to be easy to find somewhere tho
18:10<drac_boy>about outputs....that was why certain trains sometimes seemingly ran with more units than they really needed during winter .. eg just A-A units during summer but soon enough its A-B-A .. then by the time its actually cold its four units even although the consist has not even changed at all
18:10<drac_boy>talk about having four units just to get two small and two large steam boilers for one single train
18:11<drac_boy>the A units did not always have a good boiler due to the cab taking up a lot of space hence why B units more than often were spliced in if a steam car was not used at all
18:11<drac_boy>(as far as I know north america history tidbits...sorry if it bores you!)
18:13<drac_boy>anyway back to axles for a moment...I'm sure I could be wrong but I doubt if there were any locomotives outside north america that actually had three pony and/or trailing axles? like eg 2'D3
18:13<drac_boy>some of these few late usa locomotives just were so big and heavy its not a surprise they had these extra axles
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: there are no such things as "B-units" in germany
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>dual-heading of trains was only done sporadically on short sections of sloped rails
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>only few electric engines were initially refitted with multi-traction controls
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>but then they still had cabs, so they could be used individually as well
18:17<drac_boy>cheating a bit with the turbine but still..here http://www.billspennsyphotos.com/photos/Request-Gallery/PRR S2 6200 6-8-6 Turbine E14916 b 800x.jpg thats one of the few last locomotives that....came with 3 axles
18:19<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause yeah I think the whole F A+B units thing was a north america specific thing .. although I do know that russa have some locomotives that are configured as double and triple units
18:19<drac_boy>russa=russia*
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i think sweden had such things as well
18:21<drac_boy>heres the middle unit on a 3-unit setup obviously :) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/RJD_3TE10MK.jpg
18:22<drac_boy>apparently still has a small cab for to still be useable when spliced out
18:22<drac_boy>yeah sweden...I forgot...I think they did have 2-unit locomotives for their iron ore trains
18:22<drac_boy>can't remember..I'm sure I had seen some magazine photos before tho either way
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>the closest to a "B unit" thing is probably this one: http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:E_95_02.jpg&filetimestamp=20101228134218
18:25<drac_boy>mm about axles...what I find impressive was that Bombardier actually had to send their electric/diesel locomotive to the Inno train show a few months ago even although it would had killed most european rails with its heavy per-axle weight (it only had Bo'Bo' config)
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>it could theoretically be separated into two individual engines with one cab each, but that was rarely done
18:26<drac_boy>at least I think they thankfully shipped it back 'home' to north america .. and the locomotive was sold to the New Jersey railroad instead
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: what's the axle wheight?
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: most main lines are nowadays allowed for 22.5t
18:27<drac_boy>http://karow900.startbilder.de/1024/neue-zweikraftlokomotive-bombardier-typ-mitrac-96006.jpg thats it
18:28<drac_boy>let me see if I can find the weight number online .. I know I saw it in one of my magazine before either way...
18:28<drac_boy>ah found it online ... 32.65t axle loading
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>usually engines have permission for 5% overweight
18:29<drac_boy>35.99t maximum tho
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>ok, that's a bit more :)
18:29<drac_boy>if it had came with Co'Co' trucks instead or something else....maybe it would had been a little less ;)
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>quite :)
18:30<drac_boy>heh
18:34<drac_boy>anyway may as well as ask in case you knew anything... were there steeplecabs in europe too? :)
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18:42<frosch123>drac_boy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocodile_%28locomotive%29 <- the most popular one
18:43<drac_boy>oh doh how could I had *** forgotten about these now 0_o
18:43*drac_boy scribles another locomotive class into the tracking table
18:43<drac_boy>heh thanks..that'll add one interesting variety :)
18:47<drac_boy>frosch123 I don't recall where the url is right now but now looking at that SBB photo I recall there was another crocodile of a different nature .. it was diesel in the long middle body with two short nose ends sitting over extra-spaced two drive axles
18:48<drac_boy>extra-spaced? that sounds odd...maybe I meant long-spaced
18:49<frosch123>no idea; i am no train expert :)
18:49<frosch123>but i believe that i would call any steeplecar-shaped engine a crocodile :p
18:49<drac_boy>np...I'll probably find url later or some another day :P
18:50<drac_boy>frosch123 here is a dumb question: why no alligators? ha
18:50<drac_boy>heh heh
18:50<frosch123>anyway, at the bottom of that wiki page is a list of other engiens
18:51<frosch123>hmm, though they look quite unrelated
18:53<frosch123>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krokodil_%28Lokomotive%29 <- some more pictures
18:54<frosch123>and yeah, that wiki page confirms that crocodile is basically the german name for steeplcar
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19:08<drac_boy>mm
19:10<drac_boy>frosch123 do you think the term 'boxcab' still applies even if its slanted nose ends or not quite so much anymore?
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: i haven't heard anything like "boxcab" in german rail terminology
19:15<frosch123>the very early electric engines (1900) look like that
19:16<drac_boy>hmm might be an american term as I was wondering
19:16<drac_boy>boxcar + electric = boxcab
19:16<frosch123>drac_boy: neither me nor eddi are native english
19:16<frosch123>so i do not know any of those terms :p
19:16<drac_boy>and in europe they call it covered wagon instead of boxcar so...guess that answers it
19:16<frosch123>i type them into the search machine and look at the pictures :p
19:17<drac_boy>still hmm I do have to wonder.. 'switcher' vs 'shunter'
19:17<drac_boy>:P
19:19<frosch123>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayerische_EP_2 <- like this one
19:19<drac_boy>btw frosch123 if you didn't know... "caboose" was not as an universal term in usa as you may have thought it to be .. some railroads actually called them "brake car" or "conductor van" for as long as the company existed
19:19<drac_boy>sounds a bit more england-ish than american-ish names if you ask me
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>in germany a shunter may be called a "Kleinlok" while in switzerland it may be called "Traktor"
19:20<drac_boy>of course I still have to wonder whoever came up with the strange name "crummy"
19:21<drac_boy>eddi....tractor would make sense....they are classed as TM a lot of the times which I guess translates loosely into Tractor Motor or close ... they're just for localized works most of the times
19:22<drac_boy>I know I've heard of certain ones being kept at a station all the times to shunt coaches between arriving and new-deperaturing trains
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>in the swiss engine class scheme, "Tm" would mean "tractor with (diesel) motor" while "Te" would be "tractor with electric motor"
19:22<drac_boy>ah....never heard of Te much .. didn't know that tidbit :)
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19:23<Eddi|zuHause>larger engines are classified by speed limit (A/B/C/D) and traction type (e/m)
19:23<drac_boy>also I know there was one particular tractor unit that was built as diesel-rack (forgot which line) type...it had absolutely no axle traction motor at all
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>so you have "Ae" or "Be" or "Bm" etc.
19:24<drac_boy>kinda interesting but I guess that for an all-rack line the cost saving in not needing axle powers probably made sense in swizterland
19:24<drac_boy>it was 2-axle (aside to the rack axle in middle) as usual
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>pure-rackrail lines are fairly rare, i suppose
19:25<drac_boy>yeah .. there was only one single example of this locomotive built
19:25<drac_boy>I think it was that famous tourist line with the historic rack steam locomotives .. but since I can't recall the names now its only wild guesses at this point
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>usually you have normal lines with rackrail sections on the steeper slopes
19:27<frosch123>night
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19:27<drac_boy>true Eddi|zuHause
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>steam engines are really rare in switzerland
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>by WWII practically all lines were electrified
19:28<drac_boy>heh well one line had quite a number of HG steam locomotives .. several still in full service today :)
19:28<drac_boy>but mm yeah mainline steam weren't that much in first place
19:31<Superuser>THE GAME STARTS AT 1950 FFS
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what game you played, but the transport tycoon i played started in 1930
19:32<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause mind you there was also that line crossing the france/swizterland mountains ... they didn't want to use racks but it was steep .. one man had the idea to make everything powered, even the flatcars too ... was rather interesting solution
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>and since i found openttd i usually started in 1920
19:32<drac_boy>eventually they found out there was still enough tractive to insert nonpowered wagons into the trains (eg 3 powered coaches with 1 unpowered one)
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: never heard of that before
19:33<drac_boy>over the time the freight business declined .. by the time they ordered newer bogie rack emu units almost all of the old freight wagons had been scrapped except for the ones saved for track maintenance duty
19:34<drac_boy>now the line still exists but its worked by ever newer 2-car articulated EMU units that also had one interesting feature...extra-deep vestibules ... probably had to do with avoiding pinching the sides on the sharp curves
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what that means
19:35<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause well if they had used normal vestibules the side would had crushed together .. so they had to space it farther apart
19:36<drac_boy>let me see if I can't find the name of this unusual railroad
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>still never heard the word "vestibule" before
19:37<drac_boy>oh sorry that one...
19:37<drac_boy>hmm well...that rubbery thing between each coach car? :)
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, good night
19:40<drac_boy>mm anyway heres a photo of the early train from that railroad http://train-mont-blanc.fr/photos/089/089l.jpg
19:41<drac_boy>believe it or not but that freight wagon actually has two traction motors under there :)
19:41<drac_boy>goodnight Eddi|zuHause
19:42<drac_boy>mm anyway if anyone else's around for a moment...just thinking of a quick grf coding question...can you have different steepness for different rail types or not so much yet?
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20:48<drac_boy>hm...guess I can't figure out what to call these boxy locomotives -_-
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21:06<drac_boy>ah well just going call it "boxy diesel locomotive" ... meh :p
21:06<drac_boy>heh
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---Logclosed Sat Dec 15 00:00:10 2012