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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-15

---Logopened Sat Dec 15 00:00:10 2012
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04:08<@Alberth>woep woep
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04:18<@Alberth>moin Wolf01
04:26<Wolf01> soon we'll see flash-game-quality movies, a great improvement indeed
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05:10<andythenorth>'head of livestock' instead of 'items of livestock' ?
05:13<@Alberth>randomly pick 'head' or 'tail' :)
05:14<@Alberth>probably people say "X cows" instead of "X livestock"
05:15<Prof_Frink>Capacity: 3 cows, 2 sheep and a chicken.
05:15<@Alberth>btw, did you see that I reported two sugar issues?
05:16<andythenorth>oh :P
05:16<andythenorth>ha ha
05:17<andythenorth>Alberth: you're playing a temperate map?
05:17<andythenorth>I have some broken conditional code in that case
05:18<andythenorth>sugar beet in temperate / arctic; sugar cane in tropic
05:18<@Alberth>and the most sweet climate has no sugar ;)
05:19<andythenorth>untested :P
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05:31<andythenorth>no conditional code :P
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05:39<chester_>hi there, could anyone compile with 2 functions in misc_gui.cpp turned off?
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>anyone could do that...
05:41<chester_>could you? ShowCostOrIncomeAnimation and ShowFeederIncomeAnimation, i want to check how much do they load cpu
05:42<chester_>winXP 32
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>no, i can't do that
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>(which i could have told you immediately if you'd obeyed the topic)
05:43<chester_>ah dont ask to ask
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05:45<andythenorth>why not compile? :)
05:45<chester_>i want 1.2.3 stable compiled for winXP 32 with ShowCostOrIncomeAnimation and ShowFeederIncomeAnimation in misc_gui.cpp do nothing
05:45<andythenorth>it's easy
05:45<chester_>i have to dl vs, i dont have it
05:46<andythenorth>give a man a fish....feed him for a day
05:46<andythenorth>teach him to catch fish....feed him forever
05:46<andythenorth>etc :P
05:46<chester_>i only want to live for 1 day and die
05:48<chester_>ok im gonna download, if someone wish to compile answer
05:48<chester_>btw wich version of vs express should i use?
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>easiest would be one mentioned in the wiki
05:52<NGC3982>I fail to see why the train to the right doesn't go further
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05:52<chester_>i c, either 2k5 or 2k8 will be ok
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: what do you mean "further"?
05:53<chester_>NGC, this loading train keeps crossing occupied
05:54<chester_>btw how did it enter there
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: place a signal on the exit of the platform
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: or turn that train occupying the platform around
05:54<chester_>unnesesary, since platforms have 2way pbs embedded
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>chester_: no, they don't
05:55<NGC3982>Turning the train solved it
05:55<NGC3982>I was unaware that the trains direction on the platform was relevant.
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: only if you omit the signals
05:56<NGC3982>Right before the screenshot, i had one way PBS used on both entry and exit.
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05:57<chester_>NGC how did that train enter the platform?
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>chester_: the thing that you observe is that a train turning around at the end of line only starts up if it can reserve a path. there is no platform involved there
05:57<@Alberth>NGC3982: turn on the 'show reserved tracks' to see what happens
05:57<NGC3982>chester_: It drove it, like any other train. Though, i guess i fiddled around with it yesterday, making it turn.
05:57<NGC3982>Alberth: Ok.
05:58<NGC3982>Hm, i don't know why i turned that off. I like to use that feature 24/7.
05:58<@Alberth>you're not sleeping? :)
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>sleep is overrated :p
05:59<NGC3982>Nope, we Swedes are nocturnal.
05:59<chester_>Eddi: if i'll remove the platform completely, will the train stay and wait?
05:59<@Alberth>hmm, so I was born in the wrong country it seems :)
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>chester_: yes
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>chester_: except it would be more tricky to get the train there
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06:11<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: You have a fantastic word for Thursday.
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>what do you mean?
06:13<frosch123>same origin
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's even the same word. "Donnerstag" is (allegedly) named after the Germanic god "Donar", which is the equivalent of the nordic "Thor" (hence Thor's Day)
06:14<NGC3982>frosch123: Does Thor and Thunder originally mean the same?
06:14<frosch123>thor is the god responsible for thunder afaik
06:14<frosch123>other gods are only able to do lightning or something like that
06:16<NGC3982>Yes, of course. My first impression was that most languages used "thor", while germany used "thunder"
06:17<NGC3982>But, Eddi clarified it.
06:17<NGC3982>And with that, i guess Donar and the german word for thunder has a linked past.
06:20<Sturmi>dont need to guess there, it is linked
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06:22<rymate1234>I'm running openttd 1.2.3
06:22<rymate1234>I have a station that trains are completely avoiding
06:22<rymate1234>they head towards it and turn around
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: so what's thursday in swedish?
06:23<Psyk>maybe the station is not electrified?
06:23<Sturmi>rymate: sounds like there are the wrong rails
06:23<andythenorth>what's the opposite of orthogonal?
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06:23<Eddi|zuHause>rymate1234: missing catenary, usually
06:24*rymate1234 feels stupid now
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>that happend to pretty much all of us here once :)
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06:25<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Exactly as in English. Tors dag. Thors day.
06:27<rymate1234>why do electrified stations have to look exactly like normal ones
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06:27<Eddi|zuHause>rymate1234: some stations (especially those with a roof) tend to hide the catenary
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06:29<chester_>andythenorth: parralel
06:40<andythenorth>I think in this case, converging
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06:41<chester_>ok i have an iso of vs2010
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06:42<chester_>wiki should be updated, only options available to dl are vs 2010 and 2012
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06:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just say "not independent"
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>(which is a double negative, btw.)
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>depending on context, this may be not clear, though
06:49*NGC3982 googles the word Catenary.
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06:49<drac_boy>NGC3982 thats the overhead wires for the locomotives? :)
06:49<drac_boy>and pantograph is the little arm thinge used to touch the catenary wire for juice
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's the mathematical term for the curve described by a hanging chain/wire (German: "Kettenlinie")
06:50<NGC3982>drac_boy: Ah, neat.
06:50<NGC3982>Never heard the word before.
06:50<drac_boy>NGC3982 btw 'trolley arm' also means something that looks like a long pole with small slider or wheel on the wire-touching end
06:50<NGC3982>The use of the word pantograph is not related to trains at all, i guess?
06:51<drac_boy>might be theres other wording for that but 'trolley arm' is the one used in usa
06:51<NGC3982>Afaik, it's a pen-on-paper tool
06:51<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: just call it cosinus hyperbolicus
06:51<drac_boy>NGC3982 mind you trolley arms are not only for trolleys tho. some light industry railroads used them instead of pantographs
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i know that :)
06:52<NGC3982>Chug chug chug with the trolley
06:52<frosch123>never heard the term catenary in math, only in ottd :p
06:52<NGC3982>Dong dong dong with the bell
06:52<andythenorth>frosch123: it's approx same source no?
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i've never really done maths in english
06:52<drac_boy>thats why you sometimes may find a locomotive at times that has a pantograph sandwiched by two trolley poles ... they were meant to work between both trolley and rail networks to put it that way
06:52<NGC3982>Oh, ok
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: just a few words i picked up here and there
06:53<frosch123>andythenorth: what? ottd and math? :p
06:53<drac_boy>heres one quick example NGC3982
06:53<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
06:53<NGC3982>Cute engine.
06:54<NGC3982>Looks like a kid with an operated cheek bone.
06:54<drac_boy>well they were kinda built 'cheaply' so they always had that industrial look anyway :)
06:54<NGC3982>andythenorth: Oh, neither words are train related.
06:54<NGC3982>I have learned something new.
06:55<drac_boy>mind you some of these ones in SBB have the hood spliced between left and right rather than being offset to one side .. they looks a bit unusually unique
06:56<drac_boy>NGC3982 so what else do you want to learn about now? :P
06:56<NGC3982>As far as i know, i have yet to see modern trains use anything else then asymmetrical Z-shaped pantographs.
06:56<NGC3982>drac_boy: You could always explain how Hawking radiation will contribute to entropy.
06:57<frosch123> <- hmm, apparently it is supposed to have that shape
06:57<frosch123>i.e. it
06:57<frosch123>'s not broken
06:58<drac_boy>mm sorry nope NGC3982 :)
06:58<NGC3982>frosch123: Oh lord.
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: some skewed idea to save material on the bridge, i suppose
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07:05<NGC3982>frosch123: That's neat.
07:06<drac_boy>hmm what do you call a locomotive that sometimes runs all on its own and it can carry a bit of cargo itself?
07:06<drac_boy>I know its usually called railmotor in some places
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>you can call this all sorts of things
07:09<frosch123> <- i know no german term for that
07:09<frosch123>mostly because such things only carry pax nowadays, while everything carrying cargo is bigger
07:09<frosch123>but wiki knows one :)
07:10<frosch123>"gepächtriebwagen" "gepäcklokomotive" :)
07:11<drac_boy>ah sounds about right
07:12<Zuu> <-- a model for toyland trains? :-)
07:12<drac_boy>I do know some of the older SBB locomotives had a baggage/goods section inside their body. even then you still found these locomotives working freights at times
07:16<drac_boy>frosch123 I've always found germany a bit interesting...they seem to have a better way of putting word meanings together
07:16<drac_boy>but maybe thats just my view :)
07:16<frosch123>not quite :p
07:16<NGC3982>I share that theory.
07:17<NGC3982>It feels like a machine
07:17<frosch123>germans just attach word to each other if they have _some_ correlation
07:17<NGC3982>Well oiled, but mechanical and heavy.
07:17<frosch123>which results in ambiguous terms since the concatenation does not state the direction of correclation
07:17<drac_boy>heh NGC3982
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07:18<drac_boy>heres another question on a completely different locomotive...
07:19<drac_boy>was it only usa because of their cheap logging rails or did any other countries even have geared steam locomotives? usa had all these Lima Shay in this case
07:19<frosch123>common examples are "babyoil" or "dogcookie" which can mean any of "oil for babies", "oil made by babies", "oil made out of babies"; resp. "cookie for dogs", "cookie baked by dogs", "cookie excreted by dog", "cookie made out of dogs"
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>what's a "DB Keks" then? ;)
07:21<NGC3982>frosch123: :D
07:21<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: a "gepäcklomotive" is certainly a bunch of bags, piled up into the shape of a locomotive
07:22<drac_boy>heh :)
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07:22<Sturmi>what about "Triebwagen"?
07:23<frosch123>it's a brothel inside a caer
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>it's certainly a wagon where you go about your primal instincts :p
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07:25<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, that is not a problem of the concatenation itself, it works the same way in english without leaving out the spaces between the words
07:25<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause like 'diesellok' becomes 'diesel loco'?
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>something like that
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07:29<drac_boy>whats a db keks?
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07:31*NGC3982 enjoys writing words together.
07:32<NGC3982>A good ol' Swedish Särskrivning.
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: some mildly derogatory term for the "DB" sticker they put on engines and wagons
07:32<NGC3982>For instance, the swedish word for "nurse" is "sjuksyster", made with the words "sjuk" (sick) and "syster" (sister).
07:32<NGC3982>We write it together, not to confuse people with instead describing a sick family member.
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: that's pretty much the same as in german
07:33<NGC3982>It makes for great humour when people don't write the words together properly.
07:33<chester_>========== Build: 5 succeeded, 1 failed, 0 up-to-date, 1 skipped ========== - is it normal? i'd skipped music, and whats the sedtination folder for bin?
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>chester_: you can run it by pressing the run button in VS
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>chester_: usually it is in objs/
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>unlike the linux makefile, the vs projects don't have code for copying the binary after linking
07:35<NGC3982>What more, "Gladpackad räkmacka" means "A shrimp sandwich wrapped in plastic". Separating the words to "Glad packad räkmacka" instead makes "Happy drunk shrimp sandwich".
07:36<drac_boy>eddi oh heh ok
07:36<chester_>doesnt work for me, F5 says 3 projects are outdatd
07:36<NGC3982>"Rökfritt" means "Non smoking". "Rök fritt" means "Please, smoke!"
07:37<NGC3982>I'm so bored.
07:37<chester_> version - Debug Win32
07:37<chester_> settings - Debug Win32
07:37<chester_> openttd - Debug Win32
07:37<chester_>are outdated
07:38<chester_>dmusic.cpp(25): fatal error C1083: Cannot open inclu
07:39<andythenorth>cargos should have an action 0 prop for climate availability :P
07:39<andythenorth>or vehicles shouldn't :P
07:40<chester_>ah wait i didnt rtfm
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07:47<chester_>i'v compiled it, but it consumes 100% of a core and is very slow
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07:53<rymate1234>this is one station I didn't plan well
07:54<rymate1234>it's..... a bit small
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07:54<chester_>its 2 times larger than precompiled, i think its a debug version
07:56<Pinkbeast>rymate: surely it could extend up the line a bit, allowing larger trains
07:59<rymate1234>I could try
08:00<Pinkbeast>... if the town will let you build station tiles at all.
08:00<rymate1234>they reeeeeallly like me
08:00<rymate1234>we have an outstanding relationship
08:00<Pinkbeast>In that case you could also just demolish a bunch of their buildings. :-)
08:00<rymate1234>I'm not that sort of person :P
08:01<frosch123>abusing relationships :p
08:03<rymate1234>destroyed two trains
08:04<rymate1234>how long does it take to clear the debris away? D:
08:04<frosch123>a month or so
08:06<drac_boy>couldn't bother stopping trains or watching your signals? :->
08:08<NGC3982>I'm playing with UKRS2+ and starting at 1832. I'm using the very, very small 2-2-0 Planet at 12kN.
08:08<NGC3982>Should i go for full load and unload, or load if available?
08:08<frosch123>@calc 4400 / 74
08:08<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 59.4594594595
08:08<frosch123>rymate1234: actually, two months :)
08:09<rymate1234>drac_boy, exactly!
08:09<drac_boy>rymate1234 then don't complain? heh :)
08:10<Pinkbeast>NGC: I did not find the Planet much use for cargoes other than pax and mail.
08:11<chester_>yeah i have it working and its 3k+ kB smaller
08:11<Pinkbeast>But if I was carrying cargo, I would full load and reduce the number of wagons appropriately - it is so underpowered it is clearly no use to be towing empty wagons
08:12<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: Oh, sorry. I was refering to driving pax.
08:13<Pinkbeast>I never full load with pax because how do you know which end of the connection produces more? I use timetable separation if available. So perhaps I'm not someone to ask because I don't have any special advice for the Planet.
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08:15<Pinkbeast> is the game I played from 1801 to 1855, if it is of any use.
08:16<rymate1234>ooo shit
08:16<rymate1234>one of my trains crashed into a competitors road vehicle
08:17<Pinkbeast>Doesn't matter a whit to you, trains can steamroller RVs all day without penalty.
08:17<rymate1234>I know lol
08:17<Pinkbeast>(Which is some compensation for the way RVs are otherwise perfectly safe rather than hideously dangerous as in reality)
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08:18<rymate1234>yay for complex rail tracks
08:18<rymate1234>4 trains on 2 tracks ftw
08:19<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: Oh, ok.
08:20<chester_>recompiling didnt help, game still lags
08:20<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: I just love when that happends. You build a big freight line nearby a town (where you have a few dozen busses) and then ignore it for a few years. When you return the town has expanded the roads, and the busses suddenly takes a nifty path over the rails
08:21<drac_boy>Pinkbeast problem is the train that crashes the rv.....loses its station rating a lot of the times :P
08:21<NGC3982>And you sit there, wondering what happend to all of your busses who suddenly seems have disappeared. :P
08:21<drac_boy>plus don't ask about the "train wrecked together with rv" option that some people actually enable
08:22<Pinkbeast>I only really build trams and tramlines don't extend themselves so I don't have that worry.
08:23<drac_boy>heh btw to be honest.. train+tram crashes sometimes still can happen
08:23<V453000>why dont you just prevent towns from building road crossings at least ... or disable towns to build roads entirely - they do it inefficiently and ugly anyway
08:23<drac_boy>especially if you're running the 'long' refitted trams from HEQS .. they always are slow to clear a tile :-s
08:24<Pinkbeast>Only if I build rail/tram crossings, which I don't.
08:24<drac_boy>if theres still one fault I find with trams.....
08:24<drac_boy>why is there no tram tracks without the overhead wires >_<
08:24<rymate1234>looks like one of my AI's is updating to monorail
08:25<Pinkbeast>You can turn visibility off on the catenary if you're using horse trams
08:25<rymate1234> trams?
08:25<Pinkbeast>Most of my later screenies in that thread have no catenary visible.
08:25<Pinkbeast>rymate: One of the EGRVTS has horse-drawn trams.
08:26<Pinkbeast>My main gripe with trams is as with RVs: approach a station with several platforms/bays, and they all love to queue up at the same one and get stuck.
08:27<Pinkbeast>You have to turn off realistic acceleration for RVs because they have no power output
08:29<drac_boy>Pinkbeast actually I mean being able to run one route with industrial steam locomotive but another town route with trolleys
08:30<drac_boy>and Pinkbeast actually realistic accerlation used to work before...its just that recent versions of ottd seem to break the horse vehicles with 0hp for some weird reason
08:30<drac_boy>they still have some kN but its no use without 1+hp
08:30<Pinkbeast>As you would expect.
08:30<Pinkbeast>If they worked before with 0hp that was clearly buggy.
08:30<chester_>next question: is it possible to reduce fps/skip frames to save cpu for pathfinder/whatever else? in general, how to reduce cpu consumption by modifying source code?
08:30<drac_boy>actually it wasn't 0hp before :p
08:30<drac_boy>but anyway do you get what I said about tram wires tho?
08:31<Pinkbeast>So when you say "recent versions of ottd seem to break the horse vehicles with 0hp for some weird reason" perhaps you mean "horse vehicles with 0hp have never worked as you would expect"?
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08:32<rymate1234>sure horse carts should have 1hp
08:32<Pinkbeast>rymate: 2-6hp actually for the EG ones. But the trouble is the quantum of RV power is rather too large for that.
08:33<drac_boy>Pinkbeast nope...
08:33<drac_boy>before they did not have any hp shown at all .. and could work at full speed anyway .. its the recent versions of ottd that seem to break the horses..thats all I can say
08:33<Pinkbeast>drac: You're just totally confused.
08:33<drac_boy>nope...I know because I actually used to play with these horse vehicles before
08:33<Pinkbeast>You've just turned on realistic RV acceleration, which causes a power setting to be shown (and them not to work).
08:34<Pinkbeast>That's all.
08:34<drac_boy>Pinkbeast I *always* have realistic on all the times
08:34<drac_boy>and it worked before too
08:34<Pinkbeast>But in older versions realistic RV acceleration did not exist.
08:34<drac_boy>so what was the advanced setting option for if it didn't do anything then?
08:34<Pinkbeast>As I said, you're just confused.
08:36<rymate1234>I wanted to build an airport
08:36<rymate1234>but someone built them all before me
08:36<drac_boy>Pinkbeast nope I wasn't unless you want to actually tell the ottd coders they're the confused one :)
08:37<drac_boy>because the option has been in there
08:37<drac_boy>rymate1234 heh I take it town noise level is enabled?
08:37<Pinkbeast>Feel free to show me an old version where it's in there but the then EGRVTS vehicles work. You can't.
08:37<rymate1234>Not sure
08:38<rymate1234>lemme check
08:38<drac_boy>rymate1234 open a town dialog ... does it mention noise level?
08:38<Pinkbeast>... when did you start playing, drac?
08:40<rymate1234>It says "x local authority refuses to allow another airport to be built in this town
08:40<drac_boy>rymate1234 oh hmm I could be wrong but maybe thats from the 2-airports-per-town limit?
08:40<rymate1234>might be
08:40<rymate1234>lemme count 'em
08:40<drac_boy>it does not have to be inside town .. just close enough to be associated with that town (like the industry names are)
08:41<rymate1234>two airports
08:41<rymate1234>drac_boy, I want a passenger airport though :(
08:41<drac_boy>well...there we go. thats whats bollocking you from being able to build any :|
08:41<Pinkbeast>C'mon, what year?
08:41<drac_boy>I always play with no noise level and no airport limit myself tho ... then again I use planes for real purpose other than just to be cash cows
08:42<rymate1234>how to increase the limit?
08:45<drac_boy>rymate1234 if its your own game...disable the 2-airport limit ;)
08:45<rymate1234>how do I do that
08:45<rymate1234>is it in difficulty?
08:45<drac_boy>advanced settings
08:46<drac_boy>or was it only in the cfg file through text editor alone? I can't recall now
08:48<Pinkbeast>Anyway, vs. - there is _at least_ a 16-month window where if you were using EGRVTS you'd not have realistic RV acceleration because it didn't exist.
08:52<rymate1234>can't find the 2-airport limit
08:53<Pinkbeast>Crush the competitors so their airports vanish. :-)
08:53<V453000>honestly original acceleration seems a lot better for RVs
08:53<V453000>with realistic they dont slow down almost at all, and their acceleration is wtf long often
08:54<V453000>in total means that you get more jams and stuff with original
08:55<V453000>and while the acceleration behaves pretty similarly like original train acceleration, for RVs it is actually very viable, RVs have no short/long curves, they need to have some difficulties - so at least hills/curves ... while keeping nice acceleration
08:56<rymate1234>Pinkbeast, might be hard
08:56<rymate1234>Here's my main competitor
08:57<Pinkbeast>Not entirely serious - basically if the AI works (and NoCAB does) about all you can do is cheese like steamrollering all its RVs)
08:57<rymate1234>there's 500 road vehicles
08:57<Pinkbeast>And against that behemoth even that might not work.
08:57<rymate1234>that's quite a lot
08:58<rymate1234>might just have to hope that a recession happens
08:58<Pinkbeast>Well, in particular, it's exploiting the utility of aircraft shamelessly.
08:58<Pinkbeast>I think essentially you'd be straight to the cheat menu to get rid of that. :-(
08:59<rymate1234>I'll put up with it
08:59<rymate1234>I'm making a million a year
08:59<rymate1234>which isn't too bad
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09:01<drac_boy>sorry you're right rymate1234 not sure where the 2-airport-limit is...maybe I'm thinking of it being specific to ttdxp instead
09:02<drac_boy>rymate1234 do you ever play with the small airport always enabled or not? just curious
09:02<rymate1234>drac_boy, I hardly ever use airports tbh
09:02<drac_boy>heh ok
09:02<rymate1234>Just the only time I want to use them, someone got there before me
09:02<drac_boy>I always have it on .. because even in 1990 it could be I still want to build a little airport only for one or few single-prop planes to land at on
09:03<drac_boy>then again in ttdxp you only have small or city more or less ^_^
09:06<rymate1234>Here's my openttd world
09:10<drac_boy>sorry need to go for a while now, maybe later rymate1234 :)
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09:55<__ln___>did the germaneses dub all the elvish spoken in the hobbit?
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10:10<Kjetil>__ln___: yeah. they probably dubbed it to some austrian dialect
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10:15<drac_boy>hi....again? :)
10:16*drac_boy flies a Beaver onto rymate1234's airport
10:17<drac_boy>anyway just curious but do rail wagons only have one capacity for all cargos or can you eg have 40 tonnes coal but only 30 tonnes ore refit options from the same one wagon id?
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10:18<drac_boy>hi andythenorth anything else to keep complaining about or what? heh :p
10:18<frosch123>one vehicle has only one cargo type
10:18<drac_boy>frosch123 mm thats what I had presumed...thanks
10:18<frosch123>but one vehicle does not necessarily match the vsisible vehicles 1:!
10:19<andythenorth>drac_boy: I could complain about stupid questions
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10:19<frosch123>there are various trainsets with combined pax/mail wagons
10:19<frosch123>which look like 1 vehicle, but are technically 2
10:19<knight-work>Hi Guys
10:19<drac_boy>frosch123 oh .. guess I'll just use more wagon ids (theres lot free) then .. I just wanted to eg have a lower ore capacity because of its higher density etc
10:19<frosch123>drac_boy: oh, i completely misunderstood you then :o
10:19<drac_boy>thanks...just wanted to check if there was any alternative or not...seem like I was right
10:20<drac_boy>frosch123 ah heh np
10:20<frosch123>i thought you meant carrying coal and iore at the same time
10:20<drac_boy>frosch123 I'm actually going to have one early wagon that will be part mail and part passenger
10:20<frosch123>you can define completely different capacities for cargotypes
10:20<frosch123>but i do not exactly recommend that
10:20<drac_boy>that is if you have heard of the term Combine? (or whatever other terms there is for it)
10:21<frosch123>differences between cargos are something for industry sets
10:21<knight-work>Can some help: I'm trying to modify a GRF file so that I can make the train available on all railtypes. However, I can't match up what the wiki says with this NFO file
10:21<drac_boy>heres an example frosch123 just in case you were going to ask
10:22<frosch123>knight-work: compatiblity between railtypes is no property of the train, but of the railtype
10:22<drac_boy>that one is baggage/passenger but there were also mail/passenger ones too
10:22<drac_boy>I'll just do eg 24px for the visible wagon with passenger capacity.. then an invisible 1px "wagon" for the mail capacity
10:23<drac_boy>or something like that..haven't checked how to actually make the idea work yet
10:25<drac_boy>anyone want to correct me on an alternative way to do it or this 24+1px articulated wagon is the right way to go?
10:25<knight-work>frosch123: ok, I have 1 * 57 08 06 "$?" 00 00 which I believe is for the type of rail, in this case Electric?
10:26<frosch123>that is the action 8 which gives the name of the grf
10:26<frosch123>that has nothing to do with railtypes :p
10:28<drac_boy>frosch123 btw in this case re cargo weight..I'll just have eg a 'hopper' for coal/wheat/etc and 'heavy hopper' for ore/sand/etc ... maybe not perfect but I guess it'll do just for now hm?
10:28<drac_boy>ofc I always could let the latter still carry coal .. just not as much capacity of it tho
10:30*drac_boy wonders why knight-work wants to make weird trains? :->
10:31<frosch123>knight-work: maybe just try the "universal rail type" grf from bananas
10:31<knight-work>drac_boy: I've found a custom GRF which gives Glasgow Underground trains... But presently only on electric rails, so I'd like a version which works on Maglev too
10:32<knight-work>...For no other reason that it seemed like a simple edit/intro modifying a GRF file
10:32<frosch123> <- or try that one
10:32<drac_boy> idea sorry *points you to the grf suggestion above
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10:34<knight-work>frosch123: Thanks. checking that one out now
10:37<drac_boy>btw I'm kinda trying to find it while looking for other things but is there any way the grf can add a power car each X cars or its always per-every-car? something like power-unpower-unpower-power..etca setup
10:38<frosch123>yes you can do such things
10:38<drac_boy>ok...guess I'll see if I can eventually find it :p
10:38<frosch123>you just check the position in the consist
10:39<frosch123>you can add speical wagons at the front, or at the back, or every second or whatever
10:39<frosch123>various sets use this to draw pantographs
10:39<frosch123>e.g. on the last wagon before the back engine
10:39<frosch123>or for supper wagon etc
10:40<drac_boy>mm makes sense yeah .. now that I think about that I've pretty much noticed that NARS and Canset always had some randomized dome cars in longer trains
10:43<drac_boy>frosch123 I was going to use this flag as to say have 600hp motor and another 600+hp per each third wagon. just as an example of why I'm trying to look this up now
10:44<frosch123>in the old days you could define wagons to have power; but this is considered deprecated now
10:44*drac_boy notes its sometimes easy to get lost in the wiki :P heh
10:44<frosch123>today you just set the power of the engine depending on the number of wagons attached
10:44<andythenorth>newgrf is around long enough to have 'old days'
10:44<drac_boy>frosch123 hmm counting wagons to determine the locomotive? which var is this?? :)
10:44<frosch123>andythenorth: maybe everything before i joined is old :p i am certainly not old :p
10:44<drac_boy>andythenorth heh
10:45*andythenorth is old
10:45<drac_boy>frosch123 I'm not old enough to have seen real steam locomotives in everyday service :-(
10:45<drac_boy>heh heh
10:46<frosch123> <- just check the first 6
10:46<andythenorth>farms: yellow tractors, or cc?
10:46<@peter1138>who owns farms?
10:47<frosch123>in hexadecimal i am still a teenager :)
10:47<andythenorth>peter1138: game owns farms
10:47<andythenorth>call it 'industry colour' if you want
10:47<@peter1138>can't be company colour then :p
10:47<andythenorth>avoids confusion
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10:48<drac_boy>andythenorth in north america it would had been red or green? :P
10:49<drac_boy>guess theres always a slight different 'common' colour in different countries
10:52<frosch123>also red and green here
10:52<frosch123>rarely blue
10:52<frosch123>but i cannot remember a yellow tractor
10:53<frosch123>the rims can be yellow
10:54<frosch123>most common seems to be green with red rims
10:55<frosch123>andythenorth: never saw a jcb one
10:56<frosch123>is it brittish?
10:56<frosch123> <- classic german tractors
10:57<frosch123>well, search for "lanz"
10:57<frosch123>might be easier than that weird link, which claims i use safari :p
10:57<drac_boy>oh yeah I guess the wagon counting thing could be used to add the observation or cab control car to the tail of a train too
10:58<andythenorth>silly old google image search
10:58<knight-work>frosch123, drac_boy: Thanks for the help. I've managed to get that train on Maglev by using linked tool. Will have a play around with it tonight
11:00<drac_boy>heh andythenorth nothing about google really 'just works' anyway ;)
11:00<drac_boy>I don't use it much in first place for that matter
11:01<knight-work>I'm off.. Thanks once again
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11:19<drac_boy>hi LordAro
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11:35<drac_boy>hi chester_1
11:36<drac_boy>rymate1234 so how did it go? :p
11:36<drac_boy>how doing chester_1?
11:36<chester_1>i was disconnected and reconnected, seems have sort of shizophrenia now
11:37<rymate1234>drac_boy, gave up on airports
11:37<drac_boy>heh ok
11:38<drac_boy>which grfs you using just out of curiousity rymate1234?
11:38<chester_1>any developer online?
11:38<rymate1234>drac_boy, none apart from AI's
11:39<rymate1234>haven't delved into grfs yet
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11:41<drac_boy>ah ok :)
11:47<chester_1>this channel is useless without developers online! saturday evening!
11:48<andythenorth>what are you on about?
11:48<@Alberth>that's a quick conclusion
11:49<andythenorth>Alberth: it's an elegant troll :) Now everyone comes running :
11:49<chester_1>i just read the topic
11:49<chester_1>it says thereis another channel
11:49<andythenorth>there is that
11:49<chester_1>take my words back
11:50<chester_1>going there
11:50<@Alberth>chester_1: FYI, oftc has several thousands of channels
11:50<andythenorth>you might not have voice in .dev
11:50<chester_1>i only need ottd developers to talk
11:51<andythenorth>can I subcontract making some FIRS decisions? :P
11:51<andythenorth>I'll do the work :P
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11:51<@Alberth>just running compilations :)
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11:51<@Alberth>what's your problem?
11:52<andythenorth>I need to make date-sensitive graphics for junk yard
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11:52<andythenorth>I have a steam crane, diesel crane, wheel loader and excavator avaialble
11:52<andythenorth>I need someone to tell me combinations of those, with date ranges
11:53<andythenorth>i.e. "2x steam crane until 1940" etc
11:53<andythenorth>I have decision-boredom :)
11:53<andythenorth>copying and pasting them around is easy though
11:54<Pinkbeast>Surely steam cranes until 1950 at least.
11:55*drac_boy is putting steam locomotives till 2040 in fact
11:55<@Alberth>2x steam crane until 1950, 1xsteam, 1x diesel 1950-1970, 2xdiesel crane 1970-2000 ?
11:56<rymate1234>I wish there was an easier way to upgrade from railways to maglev
11:56<Pinkbeast>I would think the 1xSteam 1xDiesel period should be short - '52 to '55 or so, say.
11:56<@Alberth>rymate1234: don't upgrade, but build new tracks next to the existing ones
11:57<@Alberth>Pinkbeast: good idea, I was pondering what to do with the other ones
11:57<drac_boy>maglev? whats maglev? ;)
11:58<rymate1234>Alberth, not an option in my situation
11:58<@Alberth>wheel loader and excavator at 2000+ ?
11:59<Sturmi>teleporter after 2100
11:59<Pinkbeast>Excavators are 80s, for sure. :-)
11:59<drac_boy>rymate1234 umm yeah you can actually
11:59<drac_boy>just sell some trains to use a mostly-one-line working ... other line next to that .. till its double new route
11:59<drac_boy>I do that often for the busy city stations anyway
12:00<rymate1234>might as well do it all at once
12:00<frosch123>chester_1: development is on hold for 4 months; we do not want a r25k party in winter
12:00<Pinkbeast>Have no shame about turning on "build while paused"...
12:01<rymate1234>Pinkbeast, lol
12:01<rymate1234>might do actually
12:01<chester_1>i dont need to add a feature
12:01<chester_1>i only want to know is it possible to tweak the game slightly
12:02<chester_1>turn a feature off
12:02<chester_1>it says cannot send to channel
12:02<Pinkbeast>chester, why don't you ask your question, rather than asking meta-questions about it?
12:02<chester_1>hi, i'v made an investigation, the less trains on the screen the less cpu consumption, so is there any way to make the game refresh its screen, say every 2 or more tick to make playing available. now it tries to run smoothly but finally fails and disconnects with 'your cpu took too long..'. i'd tried recompiling with ShowCostOrIncomeAnimation and ShowFeederIncomeAnimation in misc_gui.cpp turned off, but it didnt help much (turns off
12:02<@Alberth>Pinkbeast: it's so secret, nobody is allowed to know :)
12:03<chester_1>i was asking today several times
12:03<Pinkbeast>Truncated at "(turns off" and... what have you done to the game to make it CPU-bound?
12:03<chester_1> (turns off these signs at arrival)
12:04<chester_1>i have amd brisbane a core @ 2100
12:04<@Alberth>chester_1: of course it has little impact, money animations happen almost never
12:05<chester_1>not very outdated, but after about 1200 trains in the game i cannot join
12:06<Pinkbeast>But I suspect (all else aside) almost all the CPU here is going on pathfinding etc, not on displaying sprite graphics at a few dozen frames a second!
12:06<@Alberth>yeah, many trains tend to make the game very slow
12:06<frosch123>chester_1: go to SpecializedVehicle::UpdateViewport
12:06<Pinkbeast>You haven't changed the train/rv pathfinder from YAPF have you?
12:06<frosch123>and add something like "if (tick_counter & 7) return;"
12:07<chester_1>i play @openntcoop, they have all things right
12:07<Pinkbeast>frosch: but is this going to solve his problem?
12:07<frosch123>Pinkbeast: apparently (s)he is playing on a server; so only client-side stuff can be changed
12:08<drac_boy>hmm I never bothered testing it but its funny how many trains+ships you can put on a little motorola cpu and still get smooth play :->
12:09<@Alberth>drac_boy: not having a large map also helps
12:09<Pinkbeast>I still don't believe dropping frames will have any useful effect.
12:09<drac_boy>alberth hmm you mean like 2048x2048 etc?
12:09<frosch123>chester_1: turning off "full animation" might also help
12:09<frosch123>or setting trees to transprent
12:09<chester_1>didnt find SpecializedVehicle::UpdateViewport, many UpdateViewports in several files however
12:10<drac_boy>frosch123 and making sure that variable snowline is not on if you got it .. that causes jerks during the winter>spring and fall>winter months some of the times
12:10<chester_1>all possible options in the game was turned off
12:10<chester_1>so i have started with sources
12:10<Pinkbeast>Tried the OTTD-coop IRC channel? Surely you cannot be the only one with this problem.
12:11<chester_1>there are many of us
12:11<chester_1>we simply cannot join and the n map restarts
12:13*drac_boy goes to make lunch
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12:17<chester_1>compiling with 'if (tick_counter & 2) return;' added
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12:27<chester_1>YEAH Pinkbeast cant you beleive it??? I CAN JOIN AND PLAY
12:28<Pinkbeast>I certainly am surprised.
12:28<chester_1>i'v tried single with autosave, cpu consumption dropped from 50% (100% core) to 30-40%
12:30<chester_1>very helpful option for laptops/netbooks/old computers
12:30<frosch123>how jerky do the vehicles move? :p
12:31<chester_1>not very
12:31<frosch123>do they glitch? do they leave remants when moving?
12:31<chester_1>no, almost as normal
12:32<chester_1>they drop every even frame, this doesnt affect much
12:33<frosch123>haha, title game with & 31 certainly looks funny
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13:01<chester_1> if someone wants to test
13:02<chester_1>winXP 32
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24822 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2012-12-15 18:45:32 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 1 changes by arnau
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
13:45<@DorpsGek>french - 1 changes by glx
13:45<@DorpsGek>greek - 4 changes by kyrm
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:46<@Alberth>was Dorpsgek always this slow?
13:46<LordAro>what 12 seconds?
13:47<@Alberth>no, one line of text a second
13:47<frosch123>i guess it fears being kicked :p
13:47<@Alberth>I just never noticed it before, for some reason
13:48<LordAro>it didn't used to, did it?
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13:51<Rubidium>oh, it did
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13:52<@Alberth>My log says otherwise unless I took a bad sample
13:53<frosch123>that's cia, not dorpsgek
13:54<@Alberth>ha, so that's the difference
13:54<SpComb>one line a second is fast, the general average is 2s/line
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>so i guess they didn't revive CIA?
14:00<frosch123>they will return "soon"
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14:56<LordAro>"they" ?
14:58<SpComb>CIA died a not very pretty death
14:59<LordAro>how so?
14:59<SpComb>their server got wiped, and the setup wasn't really backuped or even documented
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15:00<SpComb>sponsored server by some company that got bought etc
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15:36<andythenorth>ho ho, python implemented in js (far as I can tell)
15:36<@Alberth>crazy people :p
15:37<andythenorth>not crazier than spending your life coding js
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15:39<@Alberth>or building a computer in minecraft :p
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>building an interpreter isn't that hard... porting the libraries is the crazy task
15:44<@Alberth>pypy probably helps a lot :)
15:45<@Alberth>it needs a js somewhere :)
15:45<drac_boy>heh heh
15:49<drac_boy>any of you think making a diesel-battery locomotive makes any sense considering that the tractive+runcost thing is hard to modify on the fly?
15:50<andythenorth>what does it do for gameplay?
15:52<drac_boy>andythenorth offering lower costs especially with being almost nil $ when sitting at a station for long time
15:52<drac_boy>and the short term extra hp on grades from combo battery+diesel output too
15:52<@peter1138>how so?
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>what i wonder is why nobody builds an electric+battery hybrid engine
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: "short term power" is not modelled by the game
15:56<drac_boy>peter think how much fuel it costs to just sit there idling at the station for a month or two ... compared to if the engine was dead while the battery provided airbrake pressure, cab climate, etc. costs almost nothing :)
15:57<drac_boy>electric+battery? mm theres no emission with electric on the locomotive so I doubt anyone would had been too interested
15:57<chester_1>andythenorth: why is coding in js considered harmful?
15:57<frosch123>in what kind of medieval times do you need pressure for breaking?
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the point is travelling on unelectrified lines
15:57<frosch123>you need pressure for releasing the brakes
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>so you can use the battery to travel unelectrified lines, and recharge by the electric wire if you happen to have one
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>almost every train passes one of those occasionally
15:58<drac_boy>frosch123 you don't want to have 100% brakes all the times .. or as usa more aptly calls it emergency braking ... usually they only set 5-10psi to hold the trains
15:59<@peter1138>no harm in having 100% braking when you're... stopped
15:59<drac_boy>eddi oh well in that case runcost would had not been much different...paying for the overhead juice verus paying to maintain the batteries back at the depot
15:59<drac_boy>peter...except that it puts extra wear
15:59<drac_boy>and don't ask about cold pads being squeezed very hard onto the tires...harder to get them to release
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: there have been battery powered vehicles in germany for over 100 years
16:00<@peter1138>so what do they do over night?
16:00<@peter1138>leave the engines running?
16:01<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause if you mean these battery powered 2-car trainsets ... they had no other power sources at all .. I've always wondered if they actually had lower long term cost than eg a VT100 but mm both are historic now tho
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: there were several types
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>and yes, with those, the batteries were taken out at the depot to recharge
16:03<drac_boy>peter1138 actually they just set it to a small service amount ... and it may bleed another few psi overnight .... then the locomotive only have to pump off about 10-20psi rather than the full 'emergency' before making a quick brake test for deperaturing
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>i mean a different thing though, some "modern" engines are diesel+battery hybrids. but why the hell would that be "cheaper" than electric+battery hybrids
16:03<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause well its because of the diesel fuel having to be bought and stored onboard .. and the emission wasted
16:03<drac_boy>compared to electric being right there all the times aboard the locomotive in yard or shed
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>yes, so why not remove the diesel engine, and replace it with a pantograph?
16:04<drac_boy>thats assuming theres overheard wire in the first place ^^
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>take for example passenger MUs on unelectrified branch lines, they often end in an electrified main station. the train could recharge there, and go back on its way
16:06<drac_boy>funny thing tho is SBB even for being heavily electified actually still has ordered a diesel-battery locomotive from time to time. I think their most recent one was from Stadler too
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>or the other example is shunting engines, which is usually used on major hub stations, which also usually have (some) electrified tracks
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: that is my entire point: they don't do that. why?
16:07<drac_boy>mm well the only question would be .. how long is this 'branch lines' tho? might be a good reason why they are not considering battery traction
16:07<andythenorth>do a genset instead o_O
16:08<drac_boy>andythenorth gensets works best if its for varying train weights daily .. but if the locomotive is going to sit a lot .. its going to make little difference on the other hand
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16:10<drac_boy>UP actually was testing some shunters with 3x cummins engines in one of their calfornia yard .. and apparently it worked too well since it was a 24/7 operation with different weights from two boxcars to a long cut of multiply 5-spine containers
16:10<chester_1>andythenorth: why is coding in js bad? because i wanted to
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16:11<drac_boy>but on the other hand one of the RailGoat (as it was named) was returned back to the builder because there was little improvement over an old geep diesel
16:11<andythenorth>chester_1: it's not bad
16:11<chester_1>you told its not worth coding in it
16:12<andythenorth>drac_boy: there are crap loads of NRE genset switchers in use
16:14<drac_boy>I'm still a bit questionable about non-diesel fuels especially their efficency but seeing its still too early to get any longterm reports yet I'll probably just rather not vote on it yet
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16:14<drac_boy>CNG tractor, natural gas mainline unit, etc
16:14<andythenorth>chester_1: tbh you have no choice if you want to code for browsers
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16:15<chester_1>i think many of its features eventually will come to old languages, and they already do
16:15<drac_boy>I know that at least CSX and others do have some success with biodiesel blend to slight lower the diesel costs tho
16:17<andythenorth>I probably hate js primarily because of jquery
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16:18<drac_boy>heh I only work with raw js alone here further comment :P
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16:18<andythenorth>when I started coding js, jquery wasn't even thought of
16:18<andythenorth>I wish it had been
16:18<andythenorth>most people coding js for the web now aren't coding js, they're just writing jquery method calls and parameter dicts :P
16:19<drac_boy>well I don't see them most of the times tho. I usually disable any huge downloads that aren't of image/* content type
16:20<drac_boy>just saying
16:21<andythenorth>and you use the internet that way? :O
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16:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so how is using an overly complex generic whatever thingie like jquery different from boost or java or whatever...?
16:23<andythenorth>about the same
16:23<chester_1>jquery makes ppl think they are coders
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>they said that about any higher level language since the invention of compilers
16:24<andythenorth>not writing bytes :O
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16:25<chester_1>true, the lower your language, the cooler you are
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16:29<ToBeFree>so Python isn't cool at all? I don't think so :D
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16:30<drac_boy>andythenorth yeah ... I don't like having to wait for 300KB worth of downloads just to read only 7KB worth of texts
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16:31<drac_boy>chester_1 heh
16:31<andythenorth>I hate js because it's not python
16:31<andythenorth>and for me, python is best
16:31<chester_1>+1 for python
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16:35<andythenorth>no further debate? :P
16:35*andythenorth will go to bed
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16:35<chester_1>its possible to use python in the brower if u have it installed
16:36<chester_1>script/python will work
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16:38<Eddi|zuHause>chester_1: you can't rely on anything that is on <90% of all browsers
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16:38<Eddi|zuHause>(and think also of tablets and smartphones)
16:39<drac_boy>wish I could say that to other people too Eddi|zuHause ... me: I only can see a blank black page what are you trying to show? him/her: wtf? are you sure you're using a web browser me: yes
16:39<drac_boy>some webmasters have no sense of testing their website on a not-plugins-cluttered browser sometimes :->
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>i get really annoyed when a website doesn't work with javascript disabled
16:40*drac_boy doesn't really care for that tbh
16:41<drac_boy>hm anyway .. a more on-topic question ... industries only can have up to 3 inputs and 2 outputs ... no way around that at all right?
16:41<andythenorth>patch openttd
16:42<andythenorth>what do you think 'only can have' means? :P
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16:42<andythenorth>if it was 'only can have except with workarounds x, y and z'
16:42<andythenorth>then we'd say so :P
16:42<andythenorth>you know tile acceptance is different to industry acceptance though, right?
16:43<drac_boy>andythenorth yeah I do, I hate the stupid refinery for not acccepting oil all around but meh :p
16:43<drac_boy>I'm talking about the cargo processing tho .. not tile catchment atm
16:43<andythenorth>if you turn js off, and you expect me to provide server-side table sorting, you can think again :P
16:44<andythenorth>also, if you don't have js, and I'm relying on draggable(s), don't expect any cute little arrows or whatever to move stuff around
16:44<andythenorth>just turn on js
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, i expect dynamic webservers to manage creating dynamic webpages
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>it's what they do all day long
16:46<andythenorth>they can do it less
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16:46<drac_boy>andythenorth the only js thing I have disabled is that menus and scrollbars can't be removed .. I still don't know why that kind of behaviour is still "allowed" .. stupid browser coders :->
16:46<andythenorth>a trip to the server just to change the sort order is dumb
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16:49<chester_1>skulpt seems like bryton u mentioned above, i was talking about using CPython/Jython in the browser
16:50<chester_1>its bad idea if you writing for everyone, not that bad if you know your customer have them
16:51<andythenorth>fair point
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16:54<chester_1>Eddi did you see i finally patched the game and lowered cpu consumption?
16:57<drac_boy>hmmm to have spine wagons or not
16:57*drac_boy thinks
17:01<chester_1>im gonna bed, too late here
17:01*Alberth throws a dice
17:01<drac_boy>meh maybe not..already got the flatcar anyway
17:01*drac_boy deletes a row
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17:01<andythenorth>Alberth: 1/6 chance of a 6
17:01<andythenorth>what did you get?
17:02<andythenorth>try again?
17:02<@Alberth>nah, closed the python shell :)
17:03<@Alberth>hmm, perhaps there is a command line program for it?
17:03<frosch123>Alberth: your random number generator is buggy
17:03<frosch123>it should return 4
17:04<andythenorth>no dice
17:04<andythenorth>in macports
17:04<andythenorth>I should write one
17:04<@Alberth>not in Linux either, weird
17:04<andythenorth>in flash
17:04<@Alberth>Java :)
17:04<frosch123>andythenorth: how does rolling a die work with a touchscreen?
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17:04<@Alberth>frosch123: shake the tablet violently
17:05<andythenorth>frosch123: you just get your die and roll it
17:05<andythenorth>works fine on glass
17:05<andythenorth>might bounce a bit
17:05<frosch123>Alberth: ah, you mean like a dice cup? shake the table and throw it?
17:06<frosch123>though technically you keep the cup
17:06<@Alberth>might be a bit rough on the landing part of the tablet :p
17:06<drac_boy>andythenorth just curious, what was the website for FIRS again? it had the pictural list of coded and obsoleted industry sprites too
17:07<@Alberth>frosch123: I saw an advertisement of a game, where you could shoot a star into the game on your console by moving your hand in the direction of the screen on the tablet
17:08<@Alberth>(like you throw it)
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17:08<andythenorth>drac_boy: ^ requires js though
17:09<drac_boy>oh right had forgotten what the name was for some time .. tt-foundry
17:09<drac_boy>just wanted have a look at how you dealt with certain cargos too :p
17:10<andythenorth>I should generate the html docs from the actual code
17:11<andythenorth>drac_boy: do you have code, or just an epic design?
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17:14<drac_boy>andythenorth long tracking table, some sprites, a few more half-done sprites, and just some 'dummy' nfo files .. not much to really show yet basically :)
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17:18<andythenorth>good night
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17:27<drac_boy>heh apparently I'm not the only one to wonder about actually using rack tracks.... hrm
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17:40<drac_boy>probably really best on the arctic maps alone tho so guess thats the issue
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17:54*drac_boy still thinks there should be thin DC and thick AC electrification choices
17:54<drac_boy>maybe too confusing for new people tho :)
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>DC wires are usually much thicker than AC wires
17:56<drac_boy>mm well I was thinking of in-game .. DC would be a single line with simple L shaped masts to hold it .. while AC was of two lines (top one goes up and down at each mast) with more fancy masts
17:56<drac_boy>wouldn't be surprised if former was more geared toward poles rather than pantographs
17:56<drac_boy>but this is only a random thought that might not actually get anywhere tho ;)
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>single vs. double wire has more to do with distance between pylons than anything else
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>also, the speed would be lower, as it would cause higher oscillation in the wire
17:58<drac_boy>mm well I was just going by what I knew of usa .. I guess it varies elesewhere
17:59<drac_boy>the trolley lines even out in countryside were just single wire on basic masts while AC was more or less just the northeast heavy duty lines whcih had more elborate wires&masts
18:04<drac_boy>just for comparing sakes of what I had known .. this is the AC I know and ever-earlier (1910s or so)
18:05<drac_boy>and crude (some other had dedicated metal masts but mm) DC
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18:07*drac_boy makes more entries into tracking table
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18:09<drac_boy>ofc I have seen photos but sometimes I still have a hard time understanding some of these very early electrifications in europe
18:09<drac_boy>especially the ones with 3 pantographs each touching their own seperate wire
18:09<drac_boy>turnouts must had been a wiring nightmare with these 0_o
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18:15<frosch123>i think three-phase catenary never worked properly
18:16<drac_boy>yeah. at least I recall (its in one of these Contiential Modelling magazine somewhere here) theres a historic rack railroad still in operation .. they have one single wood-cladded locomotive that was actually 3-phase with the given "mess" on its roof .. pushing two matching wood coaches uphill and back
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18:17<drac_boy>but otherwise I've never seen anything else outside old B&W photos indeed
18:17<drac_boy>I guess a single pantograph always win :)
18:18<frosch123> <- he, there is even a list of all tracks :p
18:19<drac_boy>frosch123 I don't know if you could call it "dual voltage" (since its really not) but I have seen at least one instances of where you had 11KVAC wire centered above track supported from left side .. and offset trolley DC wire to the right supported from right side ... cheap way to let mainline train and local trolleys share the same one platform eh?
18:20<drac_boy>it worked only because the trolley's pole had some sideway flexibility to it after all
18:20<frosch123> <- apparently this one is still in use
18:20<drac_boy>ah I think I had heard of that one too frosch123, they had problem making the pantographs stay in contact with the wire at very high speeds?
18:20<frosch123>so, 3-phase usually means rack rail
18:21<frosch123>maybe it works better with low speeds
18:21<frosch123>and is also more useful in high-power cases
18:21<drac_boy>interesting .. modern 3-phase 0_o
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>three-phase catenary was used in northern italy
18:22<drac_boy>frosch123 I may not know much about japan railways but of the few things I did know .. I know that there was one short mountain section somewhere in japan that used 3rd rail rather than overhead electric for the several pusher locomotives "because of better electrical contact"
18:22<drac_boy>only lasted a few years tho because a newer route was built that had much relaxed grades so the heavy pushers weren't neeeded anymore
18:23<drac_boy>thats the only one time I have heard of 3rd rail being used over overhead instead even although it was a very heavy load
18:24<drac_boy>afk .. hot supper :)
18:29<Wolf01>'night all
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18:41<drac_boy>back now
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18:46<drac_boy>hmm may as well as assume rack rails then...seem more interesting
18:46*drac_boy mutters about so much todo notes at the same time
18:52<drac_boy>oh yes had meant to ask this a while ago...
18:52<drac_boy>I don't know whether to just call it 'forest' or not but what would you name an industry thats supposed to log trees for wood?
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19:03<Kitty>drac_boy: timber plantation
19:03<drac_boy>that sounds better, thanks for helping kitty :)
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19:06<Flygon_>drac_boy: I still find 3rd rail hard to understand
19:06-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
19:06<Flygon>Seems too dangerous :P
19:06<drac_boy>at least I guess 'food' and 'good' are generic enough to encompass a wide variety of things with the least cargo slots needed
19:07<drac_boy>eg wood becomes tables/houseframe/etc but its still only just 'GOOD' to the game ;)
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19:07<drac_boy>flygon heh well 3rd rail works best for low-medium speed high capacity pax alone obviously .. and 2cc has a good example of that afaik
19:07<drac_boy>but otherwise yeah its better to avoid it in favour of overhead which is so much more common out in the open
19:08<Flygon>2CC also lacks Comeng trains. Basically the same thing as 3rd rail subway trains, but overhead wire and better top-speed :p
19:09<drac_boy>heh flygon well I'm sure that if it was unique enough the 2cc people could look into adding it if you asked? :)
19:09<Flygon>Shame, if it got into 2CC, it probably wouldn't be given the 3rd rail-type passenger loading speeds
19:10<drac_boy>well yeah I don't know about that part :-s
19:10<Flygon>Even moreso with Red Rattlers
19:10<drac_boy>umm Red Rattlers? strange name
19:10<Flygon>Which had doors on practically EVERY SINGLE PART of the carriage
19:10<drac_boy>sounds like they are too "loose"
19:10<V453000>I think if you draw them, the "2cc people" will happily add them :)
19:10<drac_boy>oh...too many doors
19:10<drac_boy>flygon I know uk nicknamed certain early units as Thumper .. because of all the doors thumping shut
19:10<drac_boy>or thats what I recall
19:11<Flygon>They're called Red Rattlers, because the type lasted from 1880 to 1985 (with electrification @ 1925ish)
19:11<drac_boy>that was before they started using sliding doors
19:11<drac_boy>flygon oh heh ok
19:11<Flygon>Would Red Rattlers have the highest unloading/loading speed in the game? :p
19:11<drac_boy>hi V453000?
19:11<Flygon>Heya V453
19:11<Flygon>drac_boy: Rattlers had sliding doors
19:12<Flygon>There was a related type that had Swing Doors, though. They were creatively called Swing Door trains.
19:12<drac_boy>flygon heh
19:12<Flygon>But, yeah
19:13<Flygon>I can understand why 3rd rail may sometimes be used
19:13<Flygon>But the disadvantages just don't seem worth it
19:13<drac_boy>hm anyway finished looking at tt-foundry .. found two small ideas to think about it
19:13<drac_boy>flygon be thankful you do not have to deal with 3rd+4th rails :P
19:13*drac_boy points you to london if you're confused on that remark
19:13<Flygon>We have had tracks with 4 rails
19:14<Flygon>Because of the gauge problem... especially in South Australia
19:14<drac_boy>I don't recall but I think it was to do with two rails for normal (and probably as ground) .. third rail was positive voltage .. and fourth rail was negative voltage
19:14<Flygon>Victoria was luckier... our Narrow Gauge lines were independant from the rest of the system, and all the stock was designed to be run on BG for transfers anyway
19:14<drac_boy>someone from uk probably can explain it better
19:15<Flygon>Yeah, I've read up on the UK system, otherwise
19:15<Flygon>A surprisingly clever system
19:15<Flygon>Shame they didn't make it overhead+3rd rail
19:15<Flygon>I imagine that would've been less of a pain
19:17<Flygon>V453000: I'll save up money, and comission artists at some point. I am quite a big fan of Victorian trains, and the Victorian ones are the best documented in Australia. Most OpenTTDers from Australia appear to be New South Welsh, however. Victoria's mortal enemy.
19:17<Flygon>My pixel art skills aren't good :P
19:17<V453000>my drawing wasnt good at all either when I started :)
19:18<V453000>I dont say it is phenomenal in any way as of now, but ... satisfactory :)
19:18<Flygon>I know the feeling
19:18<drac_boy>flygon btw did australia ever have special "gauge wagons"? basically mounting the different buffer locations between two cuts of wagons from both gauges?
19:18<V453000>also 2cc set uses an extremely basic technique of drawing so it is really easy to contribute
19:19<Flygon>drac_boy: As in, you load a wagon onto a wagon that's the right gauge? Or different gauge wagons towing each other on their native gauges?
19:19<Flygon>V453: I'll need to look into it, then x3
19:19<Flygon>But for now
19:19<Flygon>I gotta do a different artwork for someone x3
19:20<drac_boy>Flygon I meant the latter
19:20*drac_boy is too busy with my own artworks as well :->
19:20<Flygon>drac_boy does artwork?
19:20<Flygon>I have no idea if that was practiced historially
19:21<Flygon>It probably WAS done, though
19:21<Flygon>With chain link couplers, anyway
19:21<Flygon>But we honestly prefer just switching bogies
19:22<Flygon>But I can't give a definitive answer
19:24<drac_boy>flygon what do you think of rack tracks as in having a low top speed but on the other hand can go straight up a long mountain without being stuck at 1-2kph which is what happens to normal trains otherwise?
19:24<Flygon>Doesn't seem too odd
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19:25<Flygon>We have a rack railroad here that goes 80km/h
19:25<Flygon>In New South Wales
19:25<Flygon>Some sorta ski resort
19:25<V453000>Flygon: small example :P
19:26<Flygon>Gotta brb a sec
19:26<drac_boy>flygon I was thinking about in-game ... could be interesting for arctic maps ... simple straight route up the long hill than trying to find a long low-grade route
19:26<drac_boy>but its only a thought yet .. other things need to be finished first
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19:33<Flygon>V453000: NUTS?
19:33<V453000>of course what else
19:33<Flygon>drac_boy: Ah, gotcha
19:33<Flygon>V453000: Touche
19:36<V453000>the maglev is probably the nicest :)
19:38<drac_boy>I'm probably not knowing where to look but where do you define how sensitive a cargo is?
19:38<Flygon>I could never understand some of those junctions :p
19:39<V453000>eventally :)
19:39<V453000>what do you mean sensitive?
19:39<V453000>well the junctions are just ... connections from everywhere to everywhere :p
19:39<Flygon>Seems crowded
19:39<Flygon>I've never handled crowded networks well x3
19:40<drac_boy>well something like lumber wouldn't care for slow train over long distance and still pay some $ for it ... but passengers are another matter ... 300 tiles at 10kph and I'm sure they wouldn't pay you a dollar worth :)
19:40<drac_boy>thats what I'm wondering about
19:40<V453000>well that is what the cargo payment rate graph is for
19:41<V453000>though there are some extra notes like which cargoes can decay completely, like food or fruit(I think)
19:41<V453000>see the openttd wiki for those things
19:44<drac_boy>hm it just points back to the newgrf wiki .. only thing I could find was 'penalty times and price factor' under action0/cargo which did not seem to say much
19:50<drac_boy>I'll just find out some another day :p for now I'm just classing things from A to F piority even if thats not quite correct
19:55<drac_boy>interesting enough I only give passengers a B :-)
20:01<drac_boy>V453000 what else are you going to come up with for your nutty grf? heh
20:14<drac_boy>btw a completely decayed food train would be interesting....does it even earn a dollar or two for all that "free" manure?
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20:15<Flygon>Make a manure cargo
20:17<drac_boy>tell him that ... not me :P
20:18<drac_boy>flygon btw it would had been interesting to try present a generic australia trainset grf to players ... and watch them complain about breakage of gauges .... can you say "ummm ops?" ;)
20:19<Flygon>it stops being a problem by 1930, really
20:20<Flygon>Except for Narrow Gauge trains, all trains were designed with Standard Gauge in mind
20:20<Flygon>Problem is, converting a pre-existing network :)
20:20<Flygon>(all standard gauge stock could easily be 1600mm too... the gauge is close enough. :))
20:20<Flygon>(problem is... the broad guage network had a SMALLER loading gauge)
20:22<drac_boy>"broad" and "smaller" at same time? thats rather weird
20:22<Flygon>It's... hard to explain
20:23<Flygon>The first railways in Australia were the Victorian/Irish broad gauge ones
20:23<Flygon>And were probably built with the expectation of a British style railway system
20:24<Flygon>New South Wales built theirs later... and I can only assume went with a larger loading gauge for the sake of... *shrug*
20:24<Flygon>Point is, NSW has Double Decker trains (the first DD EMU's in the world, in fact), Victoria doesn't
20:25<drac_boy>mm I see
20:26<Flygon>Though, people keep discussing locomotive hauled DD carriages for here... which would actually work perfectly for our loading gauge (it's actually not all that small, but just small enough to create problems)
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20:26<drac_boy>I've always wondered if doubledeck could work on something like metre gauge providing the ballast was kept in good conditions?
20:27<drac_boy>what you think anyway
20:27<Flygon>We did actually import a DD EMU here, built to the loading gauge. A modified Tangara set.
20:27<Flygon>drac_boy: It better balance itself well :p
20:27<Flygon> Small loading gauge DD EMU
20:29<drac_boy>well I'm just wondering if I should provide doubledeck or just simply high-capacity bogie coaches instead
20:29<drac_boy>so...... :)
20:29<Flygon>High-capacity bogie coaches?
20:32<drac_boy>narrow seats in 2+2 or even 2+3 fashion ... bags have to go in overhead rack (no space to put anywhere else heh) .. one single set of doors per car ... basically put in as many passengers as we can :p
20:33<Flygon>Seems uncomfortable
20:33<Flygon>To increase capacity, remove seats
20:36<Flygon>drac_boy: What'd be a real marvel is triple decker coaches
20:36<Flygon>Or: We get an excuse to use Brunel Gauge
20:37<drac_boy>flygon heh well you better not go to japan then :P
20:37<Flygon>Japan has TD coaches?
20:38<drac_boy>they can fit a lot of people into each single car in their commuter emus ... sometimes in the past this went far enough that station hands had to help "push" people in to make the doors willingly close :)
20:38<drac_boy>how's that for a true human sardine? ;)
20:39<Flygon>We have a similar game here
20:40<Flygon>Except without the pushers
20:40<Flygon>Except, it's a problem here, because we have too many seats :p
20:40<Flygon>But, yeah... they have station pushers in China, tooo
20:42<Flygon> When Melbourne trains get full
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20:42<drac_boy>who the hell is that on front? :-s
20:43<Flygon>drac_boy: Why we abandoned Connex
20:43<Flygon>Also, it's at the back of a train
20:43<Flygon>Some teenager illegally train surfing
20:43<Flygon>It's probably safer than him surfing at the top of a Comeng... too easy to get 1500 volt'd to death
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20:45<drac_boy>flygon mm go to africa .. theres people sitting on top of the emu services just as badly as with the diesel trains
20:46<drac_boy>at least noone even sits by the pantograph frames which .... is a good thing perhaps
20:46<Flygon>I've got a friend from South Africa
20:47<Flygon>At least the South African trains are probably somewhat idiotproofed... the Comeng and Hitachi sets aren't so idiotproof
20:47<Flygon>Too much naked electronics
20:47<Flygon>At least nobody's tried surfing on top of a VLocity... yet
20:48<Flygon>They'd probably choke to death from the fumes before they hit a bridge @ 160km/h
20:51<Flygon>Either way, when surfing does happen here, it's frontpage news
20:54<drac_boy>btw flygon one unusual steam tram :)
20:54<drac_boy>high floor .. probably from hiding the pistons underneath
20:54<drac_boy>and look at that cap smokestack too
20:55<drac_boy>too bad I'm not inclined on one of these because of the ugly wires getting in the way on the tram track tiles :|
20:57<Flygon>You can set the wires to invisible
20:57<drac_boy>maybe but then what about being able to run electric on other routes tho?
20:58<Flygon>We need more roadtypes, then
20:58<Flygon>And diagonal roadtypes @_@"
20:58<drac_boy>heh flygon actually diagonal wouldn't work so well unless you do a totally new rv pathing code which I doubt is on anyone's list now
20:59<drac_boy>because right now rvs only can count in straight tiles
21:04<Flygon>Let's get the funding to pay for this stuff then :B
21:04<Flygon>If I win the lottery, $5,000 is allocated towards new pathfinding >_>"
21:05<drac_boy>heh have fun with that? :)
21:05<Flygon>And $10,000 is allocated to a NewGRF that contains every single Australian train and tram
21:05<drac_boy>heh heh
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21:05<Flygon>Including the Swedish X2000 tilt train that was run on Diesel testing in New South Wales
21:06<drac_boy>I could use posting $100 or something to have most of the needed nfo codes here made for me by someone else? :)
21:06<drac_boy>so flygon what are you even doing now anyway?
21:10<Flygon>Making lunch
21:10<Flygon>I hope I finished the commish
21:12<drac_boy>ok :)
21:14<drac_boy>me I'm just trying to balance out the locomotive list a bit here...
21:14<drac_boy>kinda a bit hard to do I guess
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21:20<drac_boy>flygon about triple deck, if you want to do that you really need broad gauge (or even hilter's gauge if it had became real) to get the extra width space inside to have the seperate spiral stairway for the upper deck :)
21:20<Flygon>A spiral stairway?
21:20<Flygon>Seems excessive
21:20<Flygon>I'd have used the diagonal method
21:21<drac_boy>so basically outside end door heads straight to upper ... inside end door heads by L stairway to middle deck .. then the middle door is for the lower deck
21:21<drac_boy>flygon... diagonal would take up more space to get up two floors .. so spiral seem better there
21:21<drac_boy>but thats just my thought on it
21:22<Flygon>Wouldn't diagonal save width space?
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21:22<drac_boy>diagonal wastes space on the corners tho .. where spiral does away with that?
21:22<Flygon>Eh, I guess
21:22<Flygon>Either way, I gotta go soon x:
21:22<Flygon>Gotta feed the horse ect
21:22<drac_boy>mind you some of the earlier usa dome cars did use spiral stairs to squeeze out another seat row
21:23<drac_boy>heh ok np
21:23<drac_boy>see you another time :)
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21:26<Flygon>Okay, must go
21:26<Flygon>Have fun, peeps
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 16 00:00:11 2012