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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-16

---Logopened Sun Dec 16 00:00:11 2012
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03:49<@Alberth>and moin in general :)
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03:53<andythenorth>bonsoir
03:54<@planetmaker>good morning
03:54<Eddi|zuHause>*gähn
03:54<@planetmaker>well... the last two weeks I always was up at least three hours by now ;-)
03:55<@planetmaker>thus I woke up surprisingly early for Sunday :-P
03:57<rymate1234>gah
03:57<rymate1234>OpenTTD, I know those road vehicles aren't profiting
03:57<rymate1234>and I don't really care
03:57<rymate1234>especially when I have trains making £700,000 a year
03:58<@planetmaker>RV can be pretty profitable. Depends on usage, though :-)
03:59<rymate1234>well
03:59<rymate1234>these are short bus routes
03:59<rymate1234>I keep them around out of laziness
03:59<@planetmaker>short => unprofitable. as usual ;-)
04:00<@planetmaker>try short train routes
04:00<@planetmaker>same thing
04:01<rymate1234>i know
04:01<Flygon>Road vehicles are useless, except for ONE thing
04:02<Flygon>City ratings
04:02<rymate1234>is there a way to turn off the profit messages?
04:02<Flygon>Yes
04:02<rymate1234>k
04:03<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_221_-_230#gameid_229 RV are doing well :-)
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04:20<Wolf01>hello o/
04:20<@Alberth>moin Wolf01
04:21<@planetmaker>hi wolf
04:24<rymate1234>just wasted £50,000,000 by founding a new town
04:24<rymate1234>:>
04:24<@Alberth>you can disable founding new towns, you know ;)
04:25<@planetmaker>founding a town is a voluntary action anyway... it's not like it happens by accident really, I'd say
04:25<@planetmaker>or can one mis-click in a list?
04:25<@planetmaker>(not sure where it exactly is initiated right now)
04:27<@Alberth>right, NML does not do generic callbacks was the conclusion the previous time
04:28<rymate1234>I did it on purpose
04:28<rymate1234>but the damn thing ended up as a small village
04:28<rymate1234>¬_¬
04:28<@planetmaker>of course
04:28<@planetmaker>you can't build metropolis from scratch. Now nurture it to become a metropolis
04:29<rymate1234>I am
04:29<@planetmaker>if it goes too slowly, change town growth speed to max ;-)
04:30<@planetmaker>but mind, it'll affect all towns and villages
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04:30<rymate1234>Its already at fast
04:31<@planetmaker>there's also 'very fast' ;-)
04:32<Flygon>Build 'The Cloning Vats' secret project
04:32<Flygon>Pop boom every year
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05:44<chester_>men, who could compile for win64? another guy wants to play
05:45<Eddi|zuHause>you can run win32 binaries on win64
05:46<chester_>ok wait i'll tell him
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>(it might actually run faster as well, but test results are scarce and inconclusive)
05:52<rymate1234>Flygon, Cloning Vats?
05:52<Flygon>Alpha Centauri reference
05:52<chester_>yes, he's happy too now)
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06:20<rymate1234>ah
06:23<rymate1234>shitty, small bus bus service that runs often = town growth
06:23<Bad_Brett>anyone knows what numbers the bridge sprites have? or where i can find them? http://games.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/authors/script.php?feature=spritesbyfile&q=ogfx1_base
06:23<Bad_Brett>those are not working
06:29<rymate1234>why are RV's so suicidal
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06:32<Eddi|zuHause>rymate1234: try http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=46091 :)
06:39<rymate1234>Eddi|zuHause, I'm fine
06:39<rymate1234>its not my RV's which are suicidal thankfully
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>rymate1234: that's even worse...
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06:44<rymate1234>why?
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07:00<@Terkhen>hello
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07:11<frosch123>yay, problem solved! if ottd occassionally powers down your computer, just replace your graphics card :)
07:12<Sturmi>new ottd feature?
07:12<frosch123>yeah, i liked the suggestion
07:12<@Terkhen>frosch123: those things sound completely related to each other, yes
07:13<@Terkhen>maybe we unknowingly prepared OpenTTD to shut down computers to force people to replace their graphics cards
07:13<frosch123>Terkhen: a few weeks ago someone reported an issue on the german forums, that after a few hours of running ottd it would just power down his computer. it only happens with ottd, nothing else :)
07:14<frosch123>i really would enjoy coding something like that :p
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07:14<frosch123>playnig too long? -> poweroff :p
07:14<@Terkhen>"We have detected that you spend too much time procrastinating with OpenTTD, your savegame will be deleted and OpenTTD will close now"
07:14<frosch123>exactly :)
07:17<rymate1234>woot
07:17<rymate1234>two towns founded
07:17<rymate1234>"Ryville" and "Ryvilledon"
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07:18<@Terkhen>they sound like pokemons
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07:18<drac_boy>hi
07:19<rymate1234>hi
07:19<@Terkhen>hi drac_boy, how are you? :P
07:20<drac_boy>doing ok, you?
07:20<MNIM>Terkhen: would sure help me
07:20<MNIM>and not just for OTTD
07:20<@Terkhen>MNIM: :P
07:21<MNIM>I am a TERRIBLE procrastinator.
07:21<MNIM>in fact, Im procrastinating right now! weeee~
07:21<rymate1234>lol
07:23<@Terkhen>but today is sunday
07:23<Rubidium>sun? where?
07:24<@Terkhen>now that you mention it, nowhere
07:24<@Terkhen>it may be above all those clouds, but I cannot assure that
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07:24<drac_boy>any of you know if objects only can be picked manually or can they change sprite at placement time depending on neighbouring tiles?
07:24<NGC3982_2>Morning.
07:25<drac_boy>hi NGC3982_2
07:25<NGC3982_2>I'm having some difficulties with autorenew and old vehicles.
07:26<NGC3982_2>http://i.imgur.com/Pyg7I.png
07:26<NGC3982_2>The train is stationary (though started) in the depot. I guess it's the reliability of 0% that keeps it from running.
07:26<NGC3982_2>How do i get it to autorenew?
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07:26<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982_2: press the "replace" button?
07:27<NGC3982_2>Where is that button?
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>one of the buttons on the right of the depot window
07:27<NGC3982_2>Oh, that one with the arrow?
07:27<NGC3982_2>AH.
07:27<NGC3982_2>I see.
07:27<NGC3982_2>Well, that was easy. Thanks :).
07:28<rymate1234>hey guys
07:28<rymate1234>are these messages being sent?
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>no
07:28<rymate1234>crap
07:29<drac_boy>reason I had that question was because I was wondering if I only need one object for multiply connected directions or I have to do each one manually
07:29<drac_boy>heh Eddi|zuHause
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07:30<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: objects can check adjacent tiles
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: look at the "fenced area" in opengfx+
07:31<drac_boy>allright, just wanted to be sure. was thinking I had found the callback but wasn't sure if it was for that or not
07:31<rymate1234>opengfx+?
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>rymate1234: a set of generic newgrfs in opengfx-style
07:32<rymate1234>ah
07:32<drac_boy>hm looks like I'll have a rather long objects list ... basically repeating different compass directions
07:33<drac_boy>at least thankfully the scenario editor menu would not be as this long :->
07:33<hnk>can you play the game with 32bit gfx now?
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: you can do directions with "views"
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>hnk: yes
07:33<hnk>is it any good
07:33<hnk>=
07:33<hnk>?
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>hnk: try zbase
07:34<hnk>downloadable from inside the game?
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>not yet, i believe
07:34<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: why not?
07:34<hnk>interesting though
07:34<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause as it is now I'm listing eg: poles north, poles south, poles north/west, etc ... but as I am assuming it will only show up just as one 'poles' entry in the editor alone
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: no idea
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>haven't really followed it
07:35<Rubidium>maybe you should start believing something else ;)
07:35<drac_boy>heh
07:35<Rubidium>http://bananas.openttd.org/en/base/
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>WE WILL NEVER ABANDON OUR BELIEFS!!
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>go away you heretic!
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>/gtg
07:38<Rubidium>hnk: what I meant is: if you OpenTTD is new enough, you should be able to download it from within the game
07:38<hnk>well I think I have the newest 1.2.3 something
07:38<drac_boy>I assume that 'end of life' action 0F basically would let objects "close down" during the requested year just like how an industry can close down and disappear from the map for good?
07:40<Rubidium>hnk: then zbase can be downloaded from within the game
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07:45<drac_boy>and other thing was .. if I do set the object flags to have bit 2 value 4 (re that it can be removed) does that mean if the object was in the way of a town's growth the town can remove it as well - not just the player?
07:47<@planetmaker>yes
07:47<@planetmaker>at least iirc ;-)
07:48<drac_boy>mm thanks
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07:51<drac_boy>I'm not too sure if theres any plausible reasons for a single object to be 15x15 tiles large but I guess thats only simply the code size limit being stated :)
07:54<drac_boy>planetmaker I'm not sure if I'm remembering it right but whats the difference between hp and kN in-game again?
07:56<frosch123>power and force?
07:57<frosch123>max power is limiting at high speeds, max force is limiting at low speeds
07:57<drac_boy>right ok I wasn't off then
07:58<drac_boy>thanks
07:59<drac_boy>so going by that, adding more kN would had let it start a heavier train and/or climb uphill better in short?
08:03<frosch123>yes
08:03<frosch123>afaik force is only important for speeds < 5km/h or so usually :p
08:03<frosch123>so it basicalyl decides whether a train can start al all :p
08:04<frosch123>i..e it decides about max weight and max hill slope
08:04<Flygon>I wish OpenTTD had variable slopes
08:04<frosch123>the slope is variable, it is just homogeneous :p
08:05<Flygon>Non-homogeneous sloping
08:05<frosch123>anyway, for trains you basically have homogeneous slopes depending on the distance of slopes compared to trainlength
08:06<frosch123>but yeah, i know what you mean :p
08:06<Flygon>But it'd also need a 3D renderer for the heighmapping
08:06<Flygon>Unless you want lots of 2D tiles drawn...
08:06<Flygon>As sensible as a 3D heightmap is
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08:14<drac_boy>frosch123 mm yeah so low hp high kN would be a slow runner but could haul anything uphill ... high hp low kN would be more of a light fast train that may have bit issue with steep slopes .. etc etc
08:14<drac_boy>hi flygon-the-aussie-engineer? :P
08:15<Flygon>Here, the solution to the low kN problem is to add more locomotives :B
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08:17<frosch123>drac_boy: you can also consider power as a property of the engine (i.e. how much it can pull), and "force" as a property of the tires and weiget (i.e. when the tired just slip instead of pulling something)
08:17<frosch123>*weight
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08:17<drac_boy>yeah I do know about real locomotives..I was just wondering about the game physics :)
08:17<frosch123>game physics are just that :p
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08:18<frosch123>except that the grf actually does not specify a force, but a frictiion coefficient
08:18<frosch123>which ottd multiplies with the engine weight
08:18<drac_boy>flygon some of the early uk accidents were caused by intentionally underpowered trains, even Great Western was sued for this just as well
08:19<Flygon>Victorian Railways/V/Line phased out as many underpowered pass services as possible by 1985
08:19<Flygon>Usually by line closures
08:19<Flygon>The surplus was coupled and used as frieght loco :p
08:20<Flygon>But why would underpowered trains caused accidents?
08:20<frosch123>how can underpowered trains cause accidents?
08:20<frosch123>or do you mean they were not able to brake?
08:20<frosch123>due to too low force
08:21<frosch123>(assuming that the wagons cannot brake themself :s )
08:22<drac_boy>as I recall one of these particular accident....it was a single goods 0-6-0 used on a lengthy train .. stalled on a grade brakes were set at both ends as they cut the train in two .. but in restarted the locomotive went backward a bit (piston thrust wasn't achived yet) which was enough to knock the second cut into moving downhill on its own .... literally smashed into a moving express train. had some deaths there
08:22<drac_boy>the court accused GW of underpowering their trains more or less
08:22<drac_boy>I think this was even listed on the wiki list let me check
08:22<Flygon>Oh geeze ._.
08:22<Flygon>Wagons had no braking?
08:23<drac_boy>only the brakevan did and it apparently couldn't hold
08:23<drac_boy>one moment anyhow :)
08:23<Flygon>Urg
08:26<frosch123>Flygon: in the very old days you needed pressure for braking, so if the pneumatic broke there was no way to stop. later they were clever enough to reverse it, by requiring pressure to lift the brakes
08:26<Flygon>The diff between vaccum and air brakes?
08:27<frosch123>i believe braking is done using springs, and pressure compresses thoses springs and lifts the braking
08:28<frosch123>no idea about details :)
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08:35<drac_boy>hm I can't find it atm Flygon maybe it was on another uk site
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08:36<drac_boy>but yeah .. a 0-6-0 was not enough for the train used ... not surprisingly it stalled on a simple line
08:36<Flygon>It's a shame vaccum propulsion didn't take off
08:37<@planetmaker>vacuum propulsion?
08:37<Flygon>An early form of 3rd rail
08:37<Flygon>Brunel designed it
08:37<Flygon>It used a tube between the tracks, with leather seals
08:37<Flygon>And an external pump
08:37<Flygon>The train would be propelled by the vaccum
08:37<Flygon>Basically
08:37<Flygon>The opposite of a steam pressure engine
08:38<@planetmaker>got a link?
08:38<Flygon>It failed because the leather seals wore out quickly
08:38<drac_boy>flygon I suspect a major problem would be old brittle leather losing a lot of pressure
08:38<drac_boy>heh :P
08:38<Flygon>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_railway
08:39<Flygon>It got speeds of up to around 80 miles, iirc
08:39<drac_boy>another thing that seem good on paper but had problem in real life as far as I recall was a waterway tram .. basically it looked like a short observation deck mounted onto steel flanges .. and the rails were actually underwater
08:40<Flygon>...
08:40<Flygon>...what
08:40<drac_boy>eventually the water forces twisted the gauge out of alignment too often to finally write the project off
08:40<Flygon>Too hard to use steel sleepers?
08:40<frosch123>in school we built a vacuum cannon :)
08:41<frosch123>we could shoot table tennis balls over 20 m or so :p
08:41<Flygon>How does that work?
08:42<frosch123>destroying them if they hit a wall
08:42<Flygon>...now I wanna build a steam cannon
08:42<Flygon>Except it's prolly illegal
08:42<Flygon>Need boiler certification
08:42<frosch123>Flygon: you have a pipe and put a ball into it which fits closely into it
08:43<frosch123>then you put some plates on each end and remove the air from the pipe
08:43<frosch123>the vacuum hols the plates at the ends
08:43<frosch123>then you take a hammer and quickly remove the plate from the end where the ball is
08:43<drac_boy>think I found it but strangely it must be low tide or something http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f29/nickcrown/Daddylonglegs1_zps41e1139f.jpg
08:44<frosch123>the air floods the pipe, moving the ball in front of it
08:44<drac_boy>looks like they used trolley electrification to power it above the water level apparently
08:44<MNIM>heh
08:44<frosch123>it blasts the plate from the other side, and the ball continues flying
08:44<MNIM>basically a moving beach observation deck
08:45<Flygon>drac_boy: What a terrible location for it
08:45<Flygon>frosch123: That is... really smart o.o
08:46<Flygon>Needlessly complicated and not entirely practical (though, I can imagine some very important uses...)
08:46<Flygon>But really cool :)
08:46<frosch123>there are various videos on yt
08:46<frosch123>though i do not see a really nice one
08:47<MNIM>hmmmh
08:47<Flygon>All my simple mind wraps around is steam pressure cannons :p
08:47<MNIM>I could imagine it being used as a missile launching mechanism in submarines, though imagine the water hammer power on that!
08:47<drac_boy>btw I had a look at the callbacks and train actions but .. where can I state how slow/fast the cargo will be loaded/unloaded per ticks?
08:48<andythenorth>unloading speed prop
08:48<andythenorth>action 0
08:48<Flygon>Doesn't help that my friends and I tried to design steam cannons... for pre-1AD
08:48<andythenorth>if you're looking in nfo, it's on the page for 'vehicle props' rather than 'train props'
08:48<Flygon>It somehow extrapolated into us designing a greek/roman electricity grid powered by viaducts
08:49<Flygon>The main difficulty established was teaching them electromagnetism, and getting the materials :p
08:49<Flygon>And that materials readily available were terrible
08:50<drac_boy>oh right, not sure why I didn't think of that one. thanks andythenorth I found it at bottom of http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles
08:50<andythenorth>drac_boy: I've had the same problem :)
08:50<Flygon>If anything, we somehow concluded it'd be easier to build electric tramways in 50BC than steam traction...
08:50<andythenorth>drac_boy but really, why not just use nml?
08:50<Flygon>Though, I reckon Magic Potion traction'd win out :)
08:51<MNIM>Flygon: that's actually fairly logical...
08:51<Flygon>As in, that the electric tramways would be easier to create?
08:52<MNIM>for high-pressure steam boilers you need high-strength steel, which they didn't have (much) at the time
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08:53<MNIM>not to mention you'd need lubricants and fuel too
08:53<Flygon>I should note, we concluded they wouldn't be very powerful (the electric tramways). Voltage is very limited (due to other constraints, such as the amount of electricity generable, and the technology used for modifying voltage)
08:53<Flygon>Lubricants wouldn't be a problem
08:53<Flygon>This IS Greece and Rome we're talking about
08:53<Flygon>:B
08:53<MNIM>in the volumes required for steam traction?
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08:53<Flygon>Again
08:53<Flygon>This is Greece and Rome
08:54<Flygon>We did discuss Steam Tiremes, however. Using oil burning (would they have been able to get crude oil?)
08:54<Flygon>But determined the weight and sheer danger of it would have made men and oars a more practical option
08:55<Flygon>Steampunk just aint gonna win, this centery
08:55<MNIM>I'm not sure of oil, though there's records of it existing, I am unsure of volumes
08:55<Flygon>Indeed
08:55<Flygon>I know it exists myself
08:55<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile
08:55<MNIM>hmmmmh, how about steam turbines?
08:55<Flygon>But volumes mustn't have been high
08:55<Flygon>andythenorth: Yeah, I know of that engine
08:56<Flygon>MNIM: Only really useful for stationary setups
08:56<Flygon>And I imagine the amount of oil needed for a decent electricity generation plant for the era would be excessive...
08:56<Flygon>You'd be better off using coal
08:57<Flygon>Though, at least turbines are much less prone to mechanical failure than other types of steam engines...
08:57<Flygon>Which is an important factor, given our terrible materials
08:57*planetmaker returns from reading which started after Flygon's link :-) Got a bit distracted there, thanks for the link :-)
08:59<MNIM>exactly. Also, steam turbines do work perfectly for marine applications
08:59<Flygon>You're proposing Steam-Electric tiremes?
08:59<MNIM>no, just steam.
08:59<Flygon>Oh, alright
09:00<Flygon>Hmm
09:00<MNIM>biggest problems in these things would be the amount of steel needed and fuel storage
09:00<Flygon>Well, that's gonna need one bigass Tireme, then
09:00<MNIM>oh, I forgot variable pitch propellers.
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09:00<Flygon>And I get the feeling the powers-that-be would prefer a fleet of 50 Tiremes over a giant hulking slow metal monster :p
09:01<Flygon>Variable pitch?
09:01<Flygon>Forgive me, my maratime skills are... bad
09:01<MNIM>ehh. constant speed propellors. basically, your RPM stays the same, which is what you want with turbine engines
09:02<MNIM>instead, to increase/decrease thrust you change the pitch of the blades
09:02<Flygon>Ooooh
09:02<Flygon>Clever
09:02<Flygon>What has me concerned, though
09:02<Flygon>Is the materials durable enough
09:02<Flygon>They barely even had Steel then
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09:03<MNIM>yeah, that's where most issues would boil down to. can you get strong enough materials?
09:03<drac_boy>andythenorth when is grfcodec and ttdxp altogether going to have nml anyway?
09:03<drac_boy>thats the only way I can sum it up atm
09:04<andythenorth>what is ttdxp?
09:04<Flygon>Either way
09:04<Flygon>Roman steam engine certainly has good theory for on-land
09:04<drac_boy>flygon you remind me of something I had wondered about with steel tho
09:04<drac_boy>how much iron should be needed to make steel .. and what amount of coal to optionally mix with
09:05<Flygon>According to Ragnarok Online
09:05<Flygon>5 Iron, 1 Coal
09:05<Flygon>Chance depends on LUK, DEX, Skill level, and Job Level
09:05<MNIM>compared to everything else, understandings of physics in that time were comparable with the time just before the steam age, yet their materials
09:05<Flygon>I'd just stick with very thick bronze boilers
09:06<Flygon>Or otherwise avoid steam engine
09:06<Flygon>And just use viaducts to turn turbines
09:06<Flygon>Or even paddewheels
09:06<drac_boy>flygon heh hmm do you think that steel could be made of coal alone or only iron-or-ironandcoal works?
09:07<Flygon>I don't know
09:07<Flygon>But I don't imagine so
09:07<Flygon>Either way, Bronze is more accessable
09:08<Flygon>Reserve the use of Iron to critical componets
09:08<drac_boy>flygon mm I'm trying to figure out how to do the steel mill ratios yet .. I do know that it will require ore and that coal is an optional booster
09:08<Flygon>Importantly
09:08<drac_boy>:)
09:08<Flygon>Did the Romans/Greeks know of Copper?
09:09<MNIM>of course.
09:09<MNIM>copper is older than iron...
09:09<Flygon>That fixes a lot of problems
09:09<Flygon>Copper is, of course, necessary for all of this to happen
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09:10<drac_boy>funny thing is I wondered about aluminium chain but then realized it would just end up too alike to steel on the vector chart so I dropped that idea for now
09:11<drac_boy>but mm we'll just have to see
09:11<Flygon>...offf the wall question
09:11<Flygon>What is required to make Aluminium?
09:11<MNIM>personally one thing Ive always been thinking about is hydraulic heavy machinery
09:11<Flygon>irl
09:11<MNIM>like water-pressure operated city gates
09:11<drac_boy>flygon bauxite basically I think
09:11<Flygon>What is Bauxite?
09:12<@peter1138>aluminium ore
09:12<Flygon>I see
09:12<Flygon>Thanks
09:12<Flygon>TODO: Take Metaluragy classes
09:12<MNIM>basically aluminium salt with a bunch of other irons, from the top of my head?
09:12<MNIM>ehh, metals.
09:12<V453000>drac_boy: if you are doing an industry newGRF, I wrote down some notes and general logic how would I make an industry set ... might be useful if you want something to read http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2012/05/18/next-on-the-list-industries/
09:12<Flygon>Also, water-pressure operated city walls
09:13<V453000>due to the enormous amount of stuff by brain has farted out around NUTS lately I dont think I will be doing the industry set anytime soon anyway :D
09:13<Flygon>Ties in well with the viaducts of electricity generation :)
09:13<MNIM>Flygon: how would you 'operate' city walls?
09:13<@planetmaker>hehe. you start to suffer the usual phenomenon people generally start to suffer when they start to get involved: much more nice things to do than one can actually do, V453000 ;-)
09:13<drac_boy>V453000 heh I was focusing on vehicles+landscape but I had been thinking a bit about matching industries to the side too tho
09:14<MNIM>hmmmh
09:14<drac_boy>we'll see what happens after the trains are in a working beta grf :)
09:14<Flygon>Electric or steam operated propellors that push water hydralics about?
09:14<V453000>pm I have that ever since I released the first version :d
09:14<Flygon>Steam seems less fail-prone here
09:14<MNIM>I can imagine steam-powered catapults, though that could hang on metallurgy again.
09:14<Flygon>Steam-powered catapaults is silly
09:14<Flygon>Steam Cannons are mechanically simpler
09:14<Flygon>And can use crappier metals
09:15<Flygon>But the crappy metals would make it bulky and heavy
09:15<V453000>and I think you can imagine planetmaker when I make some feature specially for some of our game, then motivation goes through the roof :D
09:15<MNIM>I'm thinking about steam only to rewind the catapult
09:15<Flygon>Oooh
09:15<Flygon>Not a bad idea
09:15<MNIM>that way you don't need high pressure
09:15<V453000>also, word order in sentences ftw.
09:15<MNIM>well, less, at least
09:15<Flygon>I thought you meany a hydralic steam catapault
09:16<Flygon>The ones that shoot in a straight line, then suddenly end
09:16<Flygon>And the projectiles go flying
09:16<MNIM>that was my first thought to, but yea, complicated, and requires high pressure
09:16*Flygon nod
09:16<MNIM>not to mention hammering forces.
09:16<Flygon>The hammering forces were what worried me
09:16<drac_boy>V453000 the reason I started making notes on industries tho was because I just did not like the behaviour of this and that ... could not find the cargo kind i wanted from that one .. etc
09:16<Flygon>You'd break apart practically any metal available
09:17<drac_boy>basically it was seeming like that if my own trains were going to be fully useable .. they would need a bit of industry patching
09:17<drac_boy>but we'll see how that goes
09:17<MNIM>hmmmh.
09:17<MNIM>suddenly I wonder
09:17<MNIM>did the greeks/romans know about propellers?
09:18<Flygon>Not propellors persay
09:18<Flygon>But they DID know about corkscrews
09:18<Flygon>(I wonder why :p)
09:18<@planetmaker>hehe, V453000 :-)
09:18<MNIM>hmmmh well, it's not a far stretch from corkscrews to props.
09:18<Flygon>They used them to transfer water between planes
09:18<Flygon>And also make decent propellors...
09:19<MNIM>anyway, steam powered aquaduct pumping stations could've made water even more readily available
09:19<Flygon>And are easy to forge
09:19<MNIM>that would've helped civilization ahead for sure
09:19<drac_boy>V453000 what do you think of the four different steel mills present so far? (original, uki, ecs, firs)
09:20<Flygon>Interestingly, Electric-Steam powered corkscrews would have made getting water to the power statioon easier :p
09:20<Flygon>And need less human intervention
09:20<Flygon>Main thing that brought down civilization, though
09:21<Flygon>Wasn't really tech. It was just society collapsing.
09:21<V453000>I think something about each of them ... in total I still prefer the behavior of original industries, uki/PBI as I call it is too restrictive - coal:iore is always wrong to make a fixation to imo. ECS is just strange in general but without the stockpiling and stuff it at least works somewhat. FIRS does it very nicely
09:21<V453000>also, accepting passengers at steel mill is awesomely evil
09:21<MNIM>trouble with power grids in that age, Flygon: what application for it is there that does not require modern tech?
09:21<MNIM>lighting is out, as is small home appliances.
09:22<Flygon>Electric heating
09:22<drac_boy>V453000 heh .. to me the good steel mill would be one that can accept iron alone and yet give gradual (something any original industries lacks heh) steel output
09:22<MNIM>power would be limited to large estates, industries and possibly your electric tram
09:22<Flygon>Survives the winters, and allows for boiled water machines
09:22<Flygon>Let's think of it this way
09:23<Flygon>Electricity can be used as a tool to wow people
09:23<V453000>drac_boy: yeah sure why not, I dont think gradual output is anyhow bad
09:23<MNIM>heh
09:23<Flygon>And scare your enemys
09:23<drac_boy>and V453000 I think the refinery+steelmill accepting passengers was just a little compromise on passengers=workers
09:23<Flygon>It can be a weapon
09:23<V453000>I think something like "expert industries" or some similar newGRF did something like that
09:23<MNIM>vandergraaf generators to wow savages into submission. :P
09:23<Flygon>Imagine raiding a city
09:23<drac_boy>beside the oilrigs even in newgrf industries accepts passengers too so umm yeah
09:23<Flygon>And suddenly the raiding army gets electrified tesla style
09:24<V453000>well without the worker effect on production ratios it is rather evil as passengers obviously get processed :>
09:24<drac_boy>heh
09:24<Flygon>Kills the morale
09:24<Flygon>It can be self-defence mechanism, basically
09:24<Flygon>And, also, re: Heating
09:25<Flygon>Boiled water is clean water
09:25<Flygon>Easy access to boiled water (eg. kettles) is well... a lifesaver
09:25<Flygon>Literally
09:25<drac_boy>anyway V453000 mind if i ask you for comment on certain rail wagons?
09:25<V453000>you can ask me absolutely anything ... guess you figured that already
09:25<MNIM>Flygon: even now electric weaponry is impractical and imprecise, but it certainly could be used as psychological warfare
09:25<drac_boy>heh heh
09:25<V453000>so dont ask to ask :)
09:25<Flygon>MNIM: Exactly
09:26<Flygon>Also, wall mounted steam cannons :D
09:26<MNIM>hahaha
09:26<Flygon>Arbalists are more practicall... but, hey
09:26<drac_boy>well do you think 1920s dated 2-axle wagons on narrow gauge should probably be good for just 50kph .. maybe 60kph .. no faster because otherwise they may have issue derailing due to the rigid axles?
09:26<Flygon>Psycologically, you don't want silent balls of death flying at you
09:26*drac_boy thinks all of this talks coming out of flygon is somewhat over my head already
09:27<V453000>I dont have any opinion on that drac_boy :) sorry, I know nothing about real life trains. All stats I did were to adjust gameplay for optimum
09:27<Flygon>drac_boy: Steam cannons fire silently
09:27<MNIM>oh! oh! electric executions.
09:27<MNIM>stricken down by the gods!
09:27<Flygon>MNIM: I chuckled. Didn't think of that
09:27<MNIM>that'd sure duck up the enemy morale
09:27<Flygon>But you'd get people prefering it over death-via-horse
09:28<drac_boy>heh np V453000 np ... I've decided to mark the 2-axle wagons as 50, bogie one as 60-70 initially then 80+ later on ... still trying to decide about that balancing
09:28<Flygon>And by horse, I mean... *ahem*
09:28<MNIM>Flygon: electric executions can be just as slow and painful :P
09:28<V453000>wagon speed limits are generally a bit pointless tbh
09:28<Flygon>Last I checked, horses aren't slow
09:28<andythenorth>right.... FIRS Machine Shop available 1870. Needs date-sensitive machinery sprites. I have steam crap, then various generations of diesel crap available.
09:28<MNIM>what execution did you think of then?
09:28<andythenorth>Suggest dates please
09:29<drac_boy>V453000 well you don't want to fly cattle around a sharp curve at 100km/h without needing a rather wide gauge :P
09:29<drac_boy>heh heh
09:29<V453000>dont I?
09:29<V453000>news :)
09:29<MNIM>I was thinking of trampling or tearing by horses
09:29<Flygon>The Romans used animals to humiliate humans in various ways in the colloseums, as a form of punishment
09:29<V453000>my cattle goes up to 500kmh and they are particularly excited about it
09:29<drac_boy>andythenorth hard to say .. I mean big business may be able to upgrade early .. but small family owned shops may keep their old machine for a long time till it finally really breaks
09:29<MNIM>oh, like that
09:29<MNIM>well
09:30<Flygon>You'd get people prefering execution via chair :p
09:30<drac_boy>V453000 thats only because you have a *nutty* unrealistic trainset :P
09:30<drac_boy>heh heh
09:30<MNIM>it would of course be for the happy few.
09:30<Flygon>Happy few?
09:30<MNIM>should've added accents?
09:31*rymate_1234 is making a zoomable image of his OpenTTD world
09:31<Flygon>MNIM: They wouldn't survive the torture
09:31<Flygon>That was the point of it, really
09:31<V453000>drac_boy: of course :)
09:31<MNIM>also, methinks that in that age people would prefer heroic death in arena over lightning death by gods.
09:31<Flygon>For being an advanced society, the Romans were quite cruel
09:31<MNIM>...as if they even had a choice, that is.
09:32<V453000>I am even going to introduce solid liquid in the next version of NUTS :D
09:32<V453000>physics!
09:32<Flygon>Point is
09:32<Flygon>If electricity was to change the lives of the Greeks/Romans
09:32<drac_boy>anyone know of a term to use to describe these hmmm these passenger carrying wagons that have straight bench seats with open sides (basically only have the roof and maybe front/back walls but thats it)
09:32<MNIM>Flygon: cruel, but smart. high-profile enemies and criminals got high-profile deaths, no torturing to death
09:32<Flygon>A LOT of other things would need to change, too
09:32<drac_boy>early trolleys were like that but I still can't figure out a term to describe it
09:32<Flygon>Californian
09:33<V453000>drac_boy: rollercoaster?
09:33<MNIM>cabriolet
09:33<MNIM>Oh god. I'm not exactly a contributing factor today, am i.
09:34<MNIM>discussions about electrified/steamified classic societies and really unhelpful remarks.
09:34<drac_boy>this is what I mean http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bgDRKmnIMvo/Rf6w6YGT6iI/AAAAAAAAAno/YMNLMAayYr8/s400/98-0.jpg
09:34<drac_boy>somehow I can't think of how to describe that in just a few words
09:34<Flygon>Definitely Californian
09:35<Flygon>Californian trams didn't last long in Melbourne
09:35<Flygon>It rained too much
09:35<drac_boy>heh 'calfornian' has almost no results online :->
09:36<Flygon>Coliqual term, perhaps?
09:36<drac_boy>maybe
09:37<drac_boy>hm looks like 'open bench trolley' is good enough to work..guess I'm going with that one for now
09:37<Bad_Brett>Hey that may be something for Mod... what year?
09:41<drac_boy>I still think commuter coaches aren't a bad idea...lower top speed but higher capacity from using standing space instead of only seats alone :)
09:44<MNIM>drac_boy: higher loading speeds, too
09:46<drac_boy>yeah MNIM thats what the japan trainset made good uses of ... express trains are ok to load ... but the commuter emus can load a lot in a short time :)
09:46<Flygon>2CC, too
09:46<Flygon>Except, no non-third rail fast loaders D:
09:46<drac_boy>flygon thats why technically I didn't mention 2cc ^_^
09:46<MNIM>yeah, that's kinda annoying.
09:46<Flygon>We must implement Comengs :D
09:47<Flygon>And Red Rattlers :D
09:47<MNIM>There should be a newgrf that allows those 2cc metros to run on ordinary (nu)tracks
09:47<rymate_1234>My OpenTTD map :>
09:47<rymate_1234>http://zoom.it/cGLH
09:48<drac_boy>MNIM nothing like having one single busy city station with a mix of so many different services going in and out .. one moment it could be a short sleeper express train on platform 2 .. then a few days later its a long commuter trains on platform 5 .. then a local train coming shortly to use just-emptied platform 5 just as the express finally is almost done
09:48<drac_boy>thats pretty much exactly what the japan grf is nice for heh
09:48<drac_boy>freight side is still decent too ofc
09:49<drac_boy>flygon go find the specs first :P
09:49<Flygon>For the Victorian ones?
09:49<drac_boy>yeah
09:49<drac_boy>specs = maybe someone will think about coding it for you
09:49<drac_boy>thats the only thing I can say atm :)
09:50<Flygon>Easy enough to find
09:50<Flygon>If I can't find stuff myself
09:50<Flygon>vicsig is a greatplace :)
09:50<Flygon>But I'd rather make art, first
09:52<drac_boy>hm geeze how much does carbon weight
09:53<Flygon>Depends on the atom
09:53<drac_boy>oil carbon? :)
09:53*Flygon shrug, hasn't a clue
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09:56<drac_boy>at least I found a nice table for weight of various dry raw materials :)
09:57<drac_boy>like eg red clay fired bricks are about 2400kg each cubic meter
09:58<drac_boy>just have to finish factoring this into something more sensible to wagon tare limits eventually :p
10:00<drac_boy>oh right one more thing as always...
10:01<drac_boy>I know I've seen it in newgrfs but how many 'loading stages' can you have or its only limited by how much you want to bother drawing them? (like I mean the stages between an all-empty and all-full wagon)
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10:02<frosch123>drac_boy: one per cargo unit :)
10:05<andythenorth>bah
10:05<andythenorth>I broke nml :o
10:05<andythenorth>nmlc ERROR: There are not enough registers available to perform all required computations in switch blocks. Please reduce the complexity of your code.
10:05<@planetmaker>haha :-)
10:05*planetmaker hugs andythenorth
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10:05<andythenorth>never expected that :P
10:06<MNIM>andythenorth: Sounds like you are over the ballmer peak?
10:07<V453000>andythenorth: I reachd something similar some time ago :D
10:07<V453000>except with IDs or something
10:09<@planetmaker>V453000, andy is long past that error :-P
10:09<V453000>:DD
10:09<@planetmaker>"error" ;-)
10:09<V453000>yeah :)
10:10<frosch123>it's a feature: prevent newgrf authors from writing newgrfs which might cause players to complain about the speed of ottd
10:10<V453000>like some people did yesterday right frosch :p
10:11<frosch123>exactly :)
10:11<drac_boy>frosch123 so technically someone could had drawn 100 different stages from 0% to 100% loaded in each 1% increasement if they really had all the artist time to waste? :P
10:11<frosch123>drac_boy: most vehicles have only 30 units
10:11<andythenorth>meh
10:11<andythenorth>I could trivially generate that
10:11<frosch123>some ships have 500, so you can have 500 stages there
10:12<andythenorth>so
10:12<V453000>I thought you can only have 4 loading stages?
10:12<frosch123>but effectively most vehicles load multiple units at a time, so there is no much point in more stages
10:12<andythenorth>what do I do about this?
10:12<andythenorth>it's primarily caused by hide sprite calculations
10:12<frosch123>V453000: construction stages maybe :)
10:12<V453000>wat so trains can load in more than 4 stages?
10:13<V453000>not like I want to draw more than 4
10:13<andythenorth>ha
10:13<frosch123>i do not know of any limit
10:13<frosch123>except the pixels :p
10:13<andythenorth>so can the number of registers be increased here?
10:13<V453000>well I guess I will stick with 4 :)
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10:14<@planetmaker>4 loading stages should be enough for everyone :-P
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10:14<V453000>I think so :)
10:14<V453000>though many of my flatbeds have just 2 :)
10:15<Sturmi>reminds me of "64k memory should be enough for everything"
10:15<frosch123>Sturmi: 640k
10:15<V453000>:DD
10:15<Sturmi>i heard both :D
10:15<@planetmaker>similarities are... not by chance, sturmi ;-)
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10:16<andythenorth>ugg
10:16<andythenorth>flapping connection
10:17<andythenorth>so can we have more registers please?
10:17<frosch123>just make you code more sane
10:17<frosch123>or improve the nml compiler :p
10:18<drac_boy>frosch123 thanks, I was just curious about drawing open loads in a few stages .. eg a 2-axle flatcar with two crates of bricks would have half full one crate at 25% .. one full crate at 50% and two full crates at 100%
10:18<drac_boy>just so you understand why I asked about stages
10:19<andythenorth>ho ho, what makes you think my code is insane? :)
10:19<frosch123>andythenorth: it's a newgrf
10:20<andythenorth>so...
10:20<andythenorth>wtf shall I do? :P
10:20<frosch123>anyway, wasn't pm working on a patch to reduce the number of registers nml may use, in favour of more registers for the user? :p
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10:20<andythenorth>planetmaker: ^ o_O
10:21<frosch123>andythenorth: do you know which computation causes it?
10:21<frosch123>i.e. what did you change :p
10:21<V453000>less is more
10:21<@planetmaker>uhm... ah, that you mean, frosch123
10:22<@planetmaker>I thought it was done... but it might have been ... forgotten a bit
10:22<frosch123>well, it would make this case more severe, wouldn't it :p
10:24<frosch123>hmm, your patch was about a679d parameters, not about va2 registers, right?
10:24<drac_boy>how many cubic meters did one of these uk mineral car hold? :->
10:24<andythenorth>my assumption is that it's caused by hide sprite calcs
10:24<drac_boy>heh
10:25<frosch123>andythenorth: do you have duplicated formulas in your spritelayout?
10:25<frosch123>like multiple hide_sprite with c&p content
10:25<andythenorth>loads
10:25<andythenorth>hang on
10:25<frosch123>then you might store the value in some temporary register
10:25<frosch123>and only use LOAD_TMP in the spritelayout
10:26<frosch123>i.e. compute the same value only once per spritelayout, not for each sprite :p
10:27<andythenorth>frosch123: this is one spritelayout http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1981/
10:28<andythenorth>only 278 lines
10:28<andythenorth>doesn't even have smoke
10:28<andythenorth>the easy win would be to split snow / non snow to separate spritelayouts
10:28<andythenorth>but that seems to be not the modern way to do it
10:29<andythenorth>I am assuming that it's these layouts that trip up nml
10:30<andythenorth>there's no detail in the error, so it's only a guess
10:31<drac_boy>hmm 20 tons capacity .... and assuming 1ton=62.5kg ... at 1600kg/cu.m that would had been 1.28 cubic meters of dry loose sand
10:31*drac_boy wonders how to check if that would seem allright
10:32<drac_boy>heh sometimes I hate certain formulas :s
10:32<andythenorth>1 ton = 62.5kg?
10:32<andythenorth>according to which conversion?
10:33<drac_boy>thats what its listed in the newgrf wiki
10:33<drac_boy>(I realize some of the weights used ingame aren't exactly reflective of real life counterpart but still)
10:34<Rubidium>isn't that the base of the weight of one unit conversion?
10:35<Rubidium>it doesn't say a ton is 62.5 kg
10:35<Rubidium>it merely says the unit is in 1/16th tons and that any cargo with "ton" as unit should have 16
10:36<Rubidium>passengers have 1 (IIRC)
10:36<drac_boy>hm..not sure I recalled seeing factions....must be looking at something wrong...
10:36<drac_boy>sorry
10:36<@peter1138>62.5kg is far from 1 ton
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10:39<drac_boy>I'll have to check where I found that erronous non-fraction number but anyway ... recalculating at 1ton=1000kg I asume thats 12.5 cubic meter load then?
10:39<andythenorth>more plausible
10:40<andythenorth>imagine at minimum 1m wide, 1m high, 4m long
10:40<andythenorth>4m cubic
10:40<rymate_1234>how do I remove a town completely?
10:40<drac_boy>andythenorth mm so I guess sand is too light for a 20 ton mineral car :)
10:41<drac_boy>makes sense tho .. some sites list as mineral car being used to carry stones which must be quite heavy
10:41<InducTrackerOTTD>frosch123: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Sail_%28video_game%29
10:41<drac_boy>the variety of cars is another thing tho .. especially the late 24.5 ton one produced by BR
10:43<andythenorth>I am not convinced that sand is light
10:43<andythenorth>I've shovelled 1t of it
10:43<frosch123>2000 vehicles :p
10:43<andythenorth>I thought 1t was quite heavy
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10:45<drac_boy>mm well for now I'm just trying to figure out how much the cargos should weight per 'unit'
10:45<frosch123>drac_boy: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/CargoDefaultProps
10:45<frosch123>most weight 16, i.e. 1 ton per unit
10:47<frosch123>generally 16 is the value for stuff which is displayed as "x tons of y" in game :p
10:47<Rubidium>drac_boy: everything that has ton as unit is 16 1/16th ton
10:47<Rubidium>everything else, such as liters, boxes, etc could have a different mass per unit
10:48<drac_boy>yeah I just realized that now....corrected my 10-minutes-old note :)
10:48<drac_boy>good thing it didn't get too far from there heh
10:49<drac_boy>frosch123 I still have to figure out how much oil weight in litre term but thats for another day maybe :P
10:49<drac_boy>crude oil to be exact
10:49*drac_boy is working the dry cargos now
10:49<frosch123>default oil seems o have the same density as water :p
10:50<frosch123>drac_boy: anyway, there is also the "capacity multiplier" property which you should set for straw and such :p
10:51<drac_boy>why straw?
10:51<drac_boy>:)
10:51<frosch123>you know the weight of 30 tons of straw? :p
10:52<drac_boy>I wonder if I should consider one 'unit' of bulk materials as 1m3 maybe
10:52<drac_boy>seem small enough to use in pixels
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10:54<InducTrackerOTTD>One unit of steel or sand would weigh very much, and straw very little then
10:56<drac_boy>InducTrackerOTTD well steel is technically a sheet or beam most of the times.. while a big heap of straws is coiled together in bales
10:56<drac_boy>but yeah ... it would take many bales of straw to weight as much as one small house frame steel beam
10:57<InducTrackerOTTD>Unless you want to measure everythin in m^3 aswell
10:57<drac_boy>InducTrackerOTTD mm .. I'm just going to bother with bulk cargos for now and try figure out how to weight other things at a later time ;)
10:57<Rubidium>drac_boy: between 790 and 973 kg/m3 according to http://www.thecalculatorsite.com/conversions/substances/oil.php
10:58<InducTrackerOTTD>drac_boy: well, lots of bulk cargoes would have higher densities than water
10:58<InducTrackerOTTD>coal, iron ore, anything taken from the earth that isn't water, oil or gas =)
10:59<drac_boy>ah nice one thanks Rubidium
10:59<drac_boy>InducTrackerOTTD well ore is much heavier than typical coal tho mind you :P
11:00<drac_boy>thats why I've had to think about how to seperate coal and ore for a while till this morning I finally realized I can still load both in the same wagon .. I just simply make the iron units much heavier than coal .. don't know why I wasn't thinking of that yesterday :)
11:00<frosch123>drac_boy: that's what "capacity mulitplier" is about
11:01<frosch123>it controls how much cargo fits into a wagon, if the wagon does not explicitly set a capacity for a particular cargo
11:01<drac_boy>only problem is... you're not supposed to load a 16 ton wagon with 30 ton of ore tho .. curse the limiting newgrfs :->
11:01<drac_boy>oh?
11:01<drac_boy>that I'll have to look up after I finish math
11:01<InducTrackerOTTD>A bulk hopper would need both capacity limiters anyway
11:01<InducTrackerOTTD>You could load a full load of plastic pellets to reach the volume cap
11:02<InducTrackerOTTD>or some dense rock or whatever to reach the mass cap of the hopper
11:02<InducTrackerOTTD>Yeah, what you jsut said
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the property defines the weight of "one cargo unit", e.g. by default, 1 crate of goods is 0.5t, so goods has a capacity multiplier of 2 (so 60 crates go into a 30t wagon)
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: but it's a property of the cargo, so by defining it, you're making your train set incompatible to any industry grfs
11:04<andythenorth>this sounds complicated?
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: what you rather want is the capacity callback for the wagon
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. simply check for "is cargo == ORE: return half capacity"
11:05<InducTrackerOTTD>Would be much simpler if the wagons and cargoes could be specified with volume/mass parameters
11:06<InducTrackerOTTD>Something to consider including in the game in the future
11:07<frosch123>grf version 9 :p
11:08<andythenorth>version n
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: adding properties doesn't require a grf version bump :)
11:11<frosch123>but removing support for all older ones does :p
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11:11<InducTrackerOTTD>Cargoes would need to always have 2 out of three properties in that scheme, density, volume, mass
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11:22<drac_boy>mmm Eddi|zuHause and InducTrackerOTTD good pointers ... I'll think about these just in case I can't be bothered making a custom industry vector to pair with the trains
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: with the capacity callback you can do all that already, it just is a little tedious, and you cannot predict unknown cargos
11:23<InducTrackerOTTD>Possibly 5 params then, density, volume, mass, area density (mass/area) and footprint area
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8363/8276933385_d9da1b37fc_b.jpg <-- we have a "smoke engine" ;)
11:28<InducTrackerOTTD>Engines running on smoke, great!
11:33<drac_boy>heh thats just old cold fuel in the pistons silly :P
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11:34<InducTrackerOTTD>No, I'm sure of it. It's an evolution of steam power
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11:34<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause mm theres probably no unknown cargos unless someone make a new industry grf thats not compactible with firs/ecs cargo classes? :)
11:34<drac_boy>but yeah I'll have to look up the capacity callback soon
11:34<InducTrackerOTTD>Someone lazy like myself would probably go that path
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: yes. that's exactly what i mean. how should you know what industry grf is invented 5 years from now?
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: or what andythenorth does 5 minutes from now :p
11:37<frosch123>the first one feels easier
11:37<drac_boy>heh heh
11:41<andythenorth>no cargos are known
11:45<drac_boy>andythenorth so you do not know what WOOL is supposed to be sheepwise? :P
11:45<drac_boy>heh
11:48<drac_boy>hmmm which tree type to use .... blah
11:49<frosch123>cotton candy tree?
11:49<InducTrackerOTTD>Mahagony and Balsa, drac_boy?
11:50<V453000>ctcd trees ftw
11:50<InducTrackerOTTD>Courage the Cowardly Dog?
11:51<InducTrackerOTTD>Wait, I meant ebony
11:53<V453000>ctcd = cotton candy
11:53<InducTrackerOTTD>Hmm, so balsa wood is lighter than cork
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11:58<drac_boy>meh I'll just average up a few random trees
11:58<drac_boy>looks like that will be about 800-900kg/cu.m average :)
11:59<drac_boy>going leave that one for later tho
11:59<andythenorth>are you rescaling everything?
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12:04<drac_boy>btw lightest listed is balsa at 170 . heaviest is lignum vitae at a bit under 1400
12:04<drac_boy>of course I've never heard of the latter tho
12:05<drac_boy>most others are in 400-1000 ranges
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12:08<andythenorth>bah
12:08<andythenorth>spritesorter issues
12:08<drac_boy>heh
12:09<andythenorth>cba to fix those right now :|
12:10<InducTrackerOTTD>Perhaps a trainload of more, better a is needed?
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12:12*andythenorth just removed the fricking sprite :P
12:13<drac_boy>heh heh
12:16<drac_boy>and apparently 6.289810728022 bbl barrels of oil is 1cu.m :)
12:16<drac_boy>bit crazy I know
12:22<InducTrackerOTTD>Crazy how?
12:22<drac_boy>had to find out that number myself by entering each digits till it finally came to 1 and not 0.999 or 1.0014
12:22<drac_boy>:)
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12:35<drac_boy>going for lunch now tho
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13:34<Wolf01>bye
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24823 trunk/src/lang/finnish.txt (2012-12-16 18:45:16 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
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14:20<Bad_Brett>replacing bridge graphics - where can i find the correct sprite numbers?
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14:21<frosch123>correct numbers?
14:21<frosch123>for what?
14:22<frosch123>in case you use nml, afaik nml does not support bridges
14:26<Bad_Brett>yeah i know, but i should be able to replace the base graphics, right?
14:27<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=715362#p715362 <- maybe check foobars source
14:28<Bad_Brett>thanks!
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14:31<Bad_Brett>though i'm a complete n00b when it comes to nfo
14:33<Bad_Brett>so it isn't (yet) possible to just replace the standard bridge sprites with a "replace" block in nml?
14:34<Bad_Brett>in that case, i might patiently wait until it gets implemented
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14:47<@planetmaker>yes, you can replace base graphics
14:47<@planetmaker>opengfx is your reference of choice for that. or openttd's source. But the latter is less verbose in that context of bridges
14:48<frosch123>the problem with replacing the default bridge sprites is that your bridge needs to have the exact same layout
14:49<frosch123>wrt. pillars and stuff on the bridge
14:54<Bad_Brett>Yeah I know, but I've designed my bridges to have the same layout
14:55<Bad_Brett>the only problem is that the sprite numbers don't seem to work
14:55<@planetmaker>you need to be climate-dependent
14:56<Bad_Brett>alright, that might very well be the issue then
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15:00<Bad_Brett>http://games.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/authors/script.php?feature=spritesbyfile&q=ogfx1_base
15:01<Bad_Brett>is that the correct one?
15:02<Bad_Brett>it seems that replacing sprites from 2437 should make a difference in-game, but so far no success
15:02<@planetmaker>that would do. Though I'd read through source code, I guess
15:02<@planetmaker>base only refers to temp climate
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15:03<@planetmaker>hm... though... if you replace it unconditionally... should work
15:03<Bad_Brett>the problem is that it doesn't work in the temp climate either
15:04<Bad_Brett>i'll try with some more sprites
15:04<Bad_Brett>see if it has any effect
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15:08<frosch123>well, make sure that no real bridge set is present
15:08<frosch123>they would likely disable usage of the default sprties
15:12<Bad_Brett>nope, i only have my own grf active... the thing that makes me confused is that i've replace hundreds of other sprites using this method without any problems
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15:13<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, you notice there's different sprites for the different roads (temp / desert / tropical / arctic / snow), yes?
15:13<@planetmaker>each has its own number
15:13<Bad_Brett>yes
15:14<@planetmaker>ok :-)
15:14<Bad_Brett>the terrain is almost completed now
15:16<frosch123>Bad_Brett: well, it would not surprise me if ogfx would add bridges
15:16<frosch123>not only replacing the original sprites
15:16<frosch123>ogfx is no pure baseset :)
15:16<Bad_Brett>yeah... like the rivers
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15:18<Bad_Brett>by the way, any idea when (and if) it will be possible to code stations in nml?
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15:19<frosch123>whenever one of the nml devs is non-busy and in the mood to do it
15:19<frosch123>can be this christmas, 2012, or 2020 :)
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15:20<Bad_Brett>haha, that's the usual answer :)
15:21<Supercheese>I'm wondering when the promised new version of mb's Newstations is coming out
15:22<frosch123>you are aware of the dbset 0.9 ?
15:22<Supercheese>I like the railtype support
15:22<frosch123>it was announced for 2011-11-11
15:22<Supercheese>advertised anyway
15:23<frosch123>just ignore any dates mb gives
15:23<frosch123>just be surprised if it is really released :)
15:24<Bad_Brett>:)
15:25<frosch123>i just wonder why he actually gives dates
15:26<frosch123>is he trolling people, or does he believe in them himself :)
15:26<Rubidium>to flame people who ask when it's going to be released for not reading that particular post
15:32<Bad_Brett>Gaah! stupid bridge... i'm checking the source code now, any idea on ...where to look? ;)
15:33<@planetmaker>search for "bridge" in it...
15:33<frosch123>hmm, why is hg so stupid to consider -m "-Remove: blabla" as "-R" option?
15:33<@planetmaker>grep -Ri "bridge" *.pnml :-)
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16:06<LordAro>you people are clever. what are your thoughts on the boost library?
16:06<+glx>too big :)
16:07<Rubidium>oh, that library that has a new version like every week
16:08<LordAro>even if you only include the needed parts?
16:08<LordAro>Rubidium: only, i suspect, if you use the dev builds ;)
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16:09<frosch123>usually the boost stuff is only almost what i need
16:09<frosch123>so it ends up it writing the template myself
16:09<Rubidium>well, it's more like major releases 4 a year, but that is still a lot for a library
16:10<frosch123>i do not know many using boost, but those which i know i have put into the douche category
16:10<Rubidium>as major releases imply vast API/ABI changes
16:10<frosch123>no implication, just correlation :)
16:10<+glx>seems like ICU :)
16:11<LordAro>i was just thinking, that the filesystem part of the lib could make certain parts of ottd a bit simpler
16:11<Rubidium>glx: only ICU is once a year
16:11<+glx>(with boost being easier to compile)
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16:12<drac_boy>hi
16:12<Rubidium>LordAro: good luck testing what the exact requirements of the version of boost are
16:12<LordAro>e.g.?
16:12<+glx>oh latest ICU is a month old
16:13<Rubidium>LordAro: with 4 versions a year, you must be aware that you 'need' to support the last 10-20 boost releases, i.e. whatever you use must be in the boost release of 3-4 years ago
16:13<Rubidium>which will be a PITA to test
16:14<Rubidium>otherwise we cannot compile e.g. the Debian binaries anymore
16:14*LordAro googles PITA :L
16:14<drac_boy>can you mark different freight wagons to have different loading times for the same cargo class or not quite?
16:14<LordAro>Rubidium: that is true
16:15<Rubidium>and actually, the generic binaries could become harder as well; I wonder what APIs boost depends on that we then need to statically link into the generic binary
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16:17*LordAro quietly shelves plans to use it in any future projects
16:17<LordAro>i did suspect you would convince me to do that :L
16:18<frosch123>ottd doesn't even use stl properly :p
16:19<frosch123>there is a big difference in coding for ottd and the c++ i do at work
16:19<frosch123>no idea why actually :)
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16:20<Rubidium>dried grapes?
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16:23<Bad_Brett>Interesting... I replaced a bunch of sprites and at least some of the works... getting closer
16:23<LordAro>frosch123: indeed, in fact, i tried to use only c++ things (where possible) in my program - https://bitbucket.org/LordAro/extractdrs (shameless plug for code review)
16:24<drac_boy>Bad_Brett remind me what you're working on again?
16:25<Bad_Brett>Right now i'm adding bridges to my mod
16:25<drac_boy>mod?
16:26<Bad_Brett>http://goldrush.badbrett.se/#0.0
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>had to think of andy when i saw this picture: http://s7.directupload.net/images/user/121216/j8mkcitj.jpg
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16:35<drac_boy>heh
16:38<drac_boy>any of you know the name for these thing that look like short flatcars with turntables on top as to deal with extra-long loads? logs and steels usually if I recall right
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16:48*drac_boy wonders if flygon_ is here or still half-disconnected?
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16:53*drac_boy gives flygon some anti-commex measures :p
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: those are wood wagons
16:54<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause yeah but the ones with these two turning stalks on them?
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes
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16:56<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.voll-dampf.de/galerienwe/hsb_langholzwagen.jpg
16:57<drac_boy>oh thanks, apparently further search seem to translate it to bolster cars .. thats just what I was needing .. again thanks
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17:01<grzegorz>hello, i got 2 questions about depots and stations. my train is taking coal from mine. everything from station. but transported is about 50%... why?
17:02<drac_boy>hmm that could be interesting if I could draw an empty bolster train as being only 20px long but when loaded it'll be "longer" .. maybe too much trouble tho heh
17:02<grzegorz>?
17:04<FLHerne>grzegorz: transported % is based on station rating
17:04<FLHerne>Which is based on the stuff in http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Station_rating
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>grzegorz: see it as this: the transpoted % is how much they give you to transport, not how much you take away
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>(imagine they have other means of transport that is not modeled on the map)
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17:12*drac_boy wonders about heckling flygon's modem
17:12<drac_boy>-_-
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17:16<LordAro>he's always doing that
17:16<LordAro>should ban him :)
17:17<grzegorz>will read, thank you. couldnt find anything... brb
17:18<drac_boy>heh LordAro some days he do have a good chat with us :P
17:18<drac_boy>its just the few times like now where he seem to be unable to 'talk' at all :-s
17:18<LordAro>he does seem to be in australia, to be fair :L
17:19<@Terkhen>good night
17:19<drac_boy>bye Terkhen
17:19<LordAro>night Terkhen
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17:36<grzegorz>don't quite get it, but thank you :) will just test over time :)
17:37<grzegorz>also, when I place station there is a coverage option to enable. should coal mine be covered whole, or just 2 squares coverage is enough to connect mine 2 station?
17:38<drac_boy>grzegorz look at the station construction dialog
17:38<frosch123>make sure it says "supplied: coal" in the window
17:38<drac_boy>when it shows 'coal' instead of 'none' thats more than enough
17:39<grzegorz>ok, thank you!
17:40<grzegorz>now sleep time :)
17:40<grzegorz>gnite everyone
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17:56<frosch123>night
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17:57<Supercheese>Well
17:57<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=63651
17:57<Supercheese>Check it out
17:57<drac_boy>hm interesting..australia actually had some of the german cargosprinters....!
17:59<drac_boy>heh nice supercheese I'll have to have a look someday
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18:09<MNIM>Supercheese: now that's a nice christmas present!
18:09<drac_boy>heh heh
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18:10<drac_boy>flygon are you even actually online? :p either way how's this for a silly locomotive that seem too high for its gauge? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Y1109_Leighton,_1986.JPG
18:11<MNIM>Reminds me of this: http://half-life.wikia.com/wiki/Razor_Train
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18:53<drac_boy>hmm I think I really need some website for australia rolling stocks
18:53*drac_boy knows they have NG over there but not what they run
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19:22<Flygon>drac_boy: http://www.vicsig.net/ http://www.railpage.com.au/
19:26<drac_boy>for something so similar to an usa steeplecab locomotive this is interesting http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ja/5/52/Toyohashi_211.jpg
19:26<drac_boy>oh hi flygon finally :p
19:27<drac_boy>mm thanks haven't seen latter yet I think
19:29<drac_boy>how're you still flygon?
19:30<Flygon>Decent enough
19:30<Flygon>Still waking up
19:30<Flygon>Heh...
19:30<Flygon>We had a VERY similar steeplecab design
19:30<Flygon>One of the E-class locomotives used it
19:30<Flygon>E-class is probably one of the few without a fixed visual design
19:31<drac_boy>well steeplecabs were probably a reasonable decent low-cost design .. plus the sloped-down nose probably make it easier to always see the ground shunting crewmember or something too
19:32<drac_boy>did not have much to put under the hood in first place....sand...maybe a small folding toilet...some tools....the transformer if needed (small tho)..etc
19:34<drac_boy>already plan to have 2 or 3 choices in my list already :->
19:36<drac_boy>flygon btw did you know that the uk Deltic was supposed to have a more sculptured nose but there was some arguement and so the 'cleaned up' version was used instead even although it had a minor visual design fault with it?
19:36<drac_boy>still at least it looked nice :)
19:37<Flygon>Phone, sorry
19:38<Flygon>The UK Deltic?
19:39<Flygon>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/E1101steeplecab.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/VR_E_class_1102.JPG E-class, btw
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19:39<Flygon>Both were built to the same specs. Mostly used for interurban goods
19:39<Flygon>But lacked the horsepower for acceptable passenger use by the 1950s, so they got obsoleted by the L-class
19:41<Flygon>Victorian Railways wanted to electricy every single mainline by 1960. They ran out of money doing just one line. Probably because they did the toughest one first. >_>"
19:41<Flygon>Doesn't help they used 1500V DC...
19:41<drac_boy>heh :->
19:42<drac_boy>mm I see
19:42<drac_boy>well flygon interestingly enough I have some low-power locomotives for different years
19:43<drac_boy>mainly to be cheap ... nothing like having a single short rail link with a 700hp engine running slowly back n forth
19:43<drac_boy>:)
19:43<Flygon>Ah, hahaha, yes
19:43<Flygon>Victorian Railways were HUGE fans of that :p
19:43<drac_boy>(next to a 2500hp drag locomotive waiting at the other station)
19:43<drac_boy>in usa maps you kinda do the same thing by using the EMD SW locomotives
19:44<drac_boy>eg SW600 which meant it had 600hp
19:44<Flygon>Makes sense
19:44<drac_boy>yeah .. the emd names were interesting...
19:44<Flygon>(http://www.thecollectormm.com.au/gallery/photography/Trams/slides/VRtram2.jpg This probably had more horsepower than half of VR's other fleet :p)
19:44<drac_boy>SW is switcher ... sometimes could be found shunting coaches in stations tho...
19:44<drac_boy>GP is .. duh .. General Purpose .. freights or passengers whatever
19:45<drac_boy>and SD I never could figure out but basically 6 axles instead of 4 ... heavier freights
19:45<drac_boy>there were also early diesels labelled TR .. short to TRansfer .. basically moving freights back n forth .. sometimes being only a yard-to-yard locomotive even
19:45<drac_boy>thats all I know of anyhow ^^
19:45<Flygon>Special Delivery?
19:46<drac_boy>heh no
19:46<Flygon>Dang :p
19:46<Flygon>Here, you memorize letters and hope for the best
19:46<drac_boy>btw flygon...
19:46<drac_boy>japan had a bit more or less similar system although not always used...
19:47<drac_boy>EF would meant Electric Freight ... EP you can figure that out ... DE being Diesel-Electric I recall .. etc
19:47<Flygon>Not that it isn't unusual to have a Shunter Diesel and High Speed Steam Loco coupled together... and used for long distance rail
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19:48<drac_boy>uk may not have names but they have numbers .... single digit more than often is a shunter (that goes for the 09 Gronks too)
19:48*Flygon nod
19:48<drac_boy>and 20-40s are .. well .. earlier mainline diesels .... I don't know much about the higher numbers
19:48<Flygon>I never really liked the UK system
19:48<Flygon>Too confusing :p
19:48<drac_boy>of course anything thats 1xx is a one-car or 2-car mu set
19:48<Flygon>And also New South Wales adopted it. And NSW is mortal enemy. :B
19:48<drac_boy>including the original 10x bouncy ones
19:49<drac_boy>flygon heh heh
19:50<Flygon>NSWGR: Unintentionally making 3801 memetic since 193something @_@
19:51<Flygon>http://www.flickr.com/photos/25653307@N03/5147241866/in/photostream Holy Hell. It looks like something out of a James Bond film involving Italy. Not 1970s Melbourne @_@
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>these things went in lots of cities. they're called trams...
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>and it's driving on the left
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>so italy kinda drops out :)
19:54<Flygon>Eddi: I never notice driving on the left issues. I'm Australian. :p
19:54<Flygon>Point is, mirror the photograph, fix the text, boom, instant Italy
19:54<Flygon>And trams died out nearly everywhere by 1971 :p
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19:54<Eddi|zuHause>not around here :)
19:55<Flygon>I said nearly
19:55<Flygon>Where're you from?
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>east germany
19:55<Flygon>That explains a fair bit :)
19:55<+glx>trams are back here
19:56<Flygon>From around Melbourne, here. Trams never exactly so much died as they... lingered. The MMTB (?) head was a huge fan of trams, and probably the only reason the network didn't get disassembled (He successfully argued that the network is so large, it'd cheaper to keep running trams)
19:57<Flygon>glx: Where?
19:57<+glx>france
19:57<Flygon>Ahh
19:57<Flygon>I'm a tad surprised they died out at all, in France, given how much the country likes it's historical image...
19:58<Flygon>In Australia, we lack historicalness. So we build historicalness and claim it's historical :B
19:58<+glx>they disapeared because cars usage was growing
19:58<Flygon>Well, European style historicalness
19:58<Flygon>Nobody ever remembers the aborigines :(
19:58<+glx>but now municipalities tend to try to reduce cars usage
19:58<Flygon>Yeah, same reason almost every other Australian city lost trams
19:59<+glx>and when you create a tram line you reduce space for cars
19:59<Flygon>The only real holdouts were Melbourne... with Bendigo, Adelaide being a distant second, and Ballarat being a faaar third
19:59<Flygon>Yeah, that's why the trams got removed from Sydney. Despite Sydney having the largest tram network EVER
19:59<Flygon>Their streets are narrow
20:00<Flygon>(similar reason they got removed from Brisbane. Along with Government corruption permitting 'accidental' fires of the rollingstock)
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20:00<Flygon>Melbourne's lucky, in that it has wide streets, and Adelaide's network, if you call it that, is mostly on it's own RoW
20:01<Flygon>But, yeah, here's hoping they can build the lines again. This time, with 5+ car lengths in mind...
20:02<Flygon>Melbourne's kinda screwed. We have a 19th centery archiatecture, with 20th centery running style, with 21st centery trams
20:02<Flygon>They're terrified of running the 3 and 5 car trams outside of certain lines, because the curve raidus may induce derailing
20:02<__ln___>century
20:03<Flygon>I knew I was spelling that wrong
20:03<Flygon>Thanks
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>maybe he meant center-y, as in inbetween left-y and right-y
20:04<Flygon>Nonono
20:04<drac_boy>heh
20:04<Flygon>__ln___ is corrrect
20:04<+glx>2 'r' are enough ;)
20:10<drac_boy>whats the most common ac electrification voltage? (excluding the recent highspeed-only lines which isn't what I quite had in mind)
20:11*__ln___ has used trams in 9 countries, on 2 continents
20:12<Flygon>I'd say... 1500V DC
20:12<drac_boy>for dc I think it was 1500V wasn't it?
20:12<drac_boy>Flygon ac not dc you silly aussie :P
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20:14<+glx>15kV 16 2/3 Hz and 25Kv 50Hz here
20:14<Flygon>Ah
20:14<Flygon>AC voltage in Australia?
20:14<Flygon>25kV 50Hz here
20:14<Flygon>But the only place AC is actually used is Queensland and South Australia
20:15<drac_boy>hmm had thought it may had been 25 ... thanks
20:15<drac_boy>so I guess thats it.. 1500vdc or 25000vac in tracking table then
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>15kV AC is used in germany, switzerland, austria and sweden
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>25kV AC in the rest of the world
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>(in the places that don't use DC)
20:17<+glx>many trains can run with more than 1 voltage
20:17<drac_boy>japan had 20kV for some reason too tho
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>the 15kV system is the older one
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>the difference is not so much the voltage, but rather the frequency
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>16 2/3 Hz vs. 50 Hz
20:19<+glx>http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/voltage_map_europe.php
20:20<Flygon>It's kind of hilarious how Australia has a more unified Voltage than it does Rail Gauge :p
20:21<+glx>oh I though we had 15kV too, but we have not
20:21<+glx>it's just some trains can use it like Thalys
20:22<drac_boy>:)
20:22<__ln___>so while sweden/norway and germany have 15kV, the smart danes in between have chosen 25kV...
20:23<Flygon>Sure sure, Thalys can do voltage change, but can it do a gauge change and solve Australia's problems? :D
20:23<Flygon>C'mooooon Talgo, strut your stuff here someday...
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>glx: interesting about the left/right track usage in france is that the switchover is (still) at the border of 1871
20:25<+glx>Flygon: why change gauge when almost all europe use standard gauge ?
20:25<Flygon>Because Spain uses a different gauge :p
20:25<+glx>well except the silly spanish ;)
20:26<Flygon>And Russia, if you consider then European :p
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: there are multi-gauge trains in europe
20:26<Flygon>...and if I really feel like extrapolating, Australia's sorta European... you guys certainly colonized the hell out of Australia :D
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>mostly to russia, but some also to spain (before they re-gauged their main lines)
20:27<+glx>was not a colony at the begining
20:27<Flygon>glx: A Prison Colony is still a Colony
20:27<Flygon>It just means that it's got more Irishmen than anything else
20:28<Flygon>But, yeah, Eddi, didn't the Spanish end up implementing an on-the-go gauge switch system?
20:29<drac_boy>glx interesting link and btw the 'DC advantage' page shows exactly why I actually liked it oddly
20:29<Flygon>What advantage of DC?
20:29<drac_boy>'simple technology' and 'suitable for lines with relatively short trains'
20:29<drac_boy>or in another word: cheap
20:29<drac_boy>:)
20:30<Flygon>Ahh
20:30<Flygon>It's not cheap when you start electrifying long lines :p
20:30<__ln___>what if Russia is using the (almost) standard gauge and the rest of Europe is non-standard?
20:30<drac_boy>flygon one another thing tho is...
20:31<drac_boy>with dc you can let substations join together anytime .. with ac you have to insulate each block or go into expensive sine-matching circuits
20:31<Flygon>Really?
20:31<Flygon>Huh
20:31<Flygon>I see
20:32<drac_boy>flygon...beside think about this...
20:32<Flygon>__ln___: Funny story about that. 1600mm was suppose to be standard gauge in Australia. But New South Wales went to 1435mm and told nobody else
20:32<+glx>1435 is standard :)
20:32<Flygon>Queensland's exempt from criticism because they used 1067mm gauge... which makes dual gauge rail trivial
20:32<Flygon>glx: This is back in the 1840s and 1850s
20:33<drac_boy>if the ac substation A was timed at 27ms after each minute ... and substation B was timed at 41ms after each minute ... that means the two waves would clash with each others..maybe shorten out
20:33<drac_boy>but with dc ... two lines touch each other .. nothing happens
20:33<drac_boy>sorry if that sound a bit dumbed down way to explain it
20:33<Flygon>And what about high voltage DC? How practical is that?
20:33<Eddi|zuHause>__ln___: 700.000 km vs. 200.000 km tells different :)
20:34<Flygon>Would 25kV DC get rid of some of the attenuation issues?
20:34<drac_boy>no idea sorry
20:34<Flygon>Damn
20:34<Flygon>That's the huge issue with DC here. Attenuation as hell.
20:34<Flygon>To the point where lines are actually having capacity issues from substation load, not signalling
20:35<Flygon>And to replace all the remaining 1500V DC trains with 25kV trains is... well
20:35<__ln___>We have 1524mm (5 ft). Not sure if it's used anywhere else anymore, as Soviet Union chose 1520mm.
20:35<Flygon>You'd be replacing more than 50% of the network
20:35<Flygon>Er, 50% of the rollingstoc
20:36<drac_boy>flygon don't know if I had told you before but anyway...
20:36<drac_boy>one of the interesting thing about city-only (or close) low-voltage dc electrification is....
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>__ln___: 4mm is usually within the allowed margins anyway
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>__ln___: typically, the faster you go, the wider the track should be
20:37<drac_boy>sometimes they simply take the third rail voltage .. feed it through a surge protection .. then directly to the controller n traction motor ... no need for any stepdown at all
20:37<+glx>soviet trains were fast ?
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. 1435mm could also be 1440mm on high speed lines
20:37<__ln___>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, the two gauges are fully compatible in practice.
20:38<Eddi|zuHause>glx: no, the other way around :)
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>__ln___: i have heard of some wagons which were sold from a 750mm line to a 760mm line, and ran there without modifications
20:40<drac_boy>Flygon btw any particular NG australia locomotive I should look at?
20:40<Flygon>Uuuh
20:40<Flygon>The entirety of Queensland
20:40<drac_boy>just had to ask :p
20:40<Flygon>Worlds LARGEST 1067mm network
20:41<Flygon>They've perfected parts of it to the point where they 1-up Japan easily
20:41<Flygon>And I imagine they have good relations with South Africa :p
20:43<drac_boy>well....no they didn't one-up japan sorry :P
20:43<Flygon>I've yet to see a Japanese NG train beat 210km/h
20:43<drac_boy>is it everyday service at that speed?
20:43<Flygon>...god dammit
20:43<Flygon>No, it caps between 160km/h to 177km/h @_@
20:44<Flygon>Same as the rest of Australia
20:44<Flygon>But, still, technically, fastest Australian train
20:44<Flygon>(can't wait til V/Line upgrade some BG track and break QLD's record :p)
20:44<drac_boy>heh well 160 .... japan got a little bit over 140 in the 1960s so I don't think I want to comment :P
20:45<Flygon>Hmm
20:45<Flygon>1960s...
20:45<Flygon>Dunno what QLD got then
20:45<Flygon>Their history isn't as well documented as the rest of the country
20:46<drac_boy>mm
20:46<Flygon>Can't imagine them getting 140 though
20:47<Flygon>Vic and NSW getting over 160km/h was considered a miracle back then...
20:47<Flygon>While QLD was still using rather old Steam Locos for actual services until the mid/late-70s
20:47<Flygon>Which really really didn't help the perception that QLD is backwards as hell
20:47<drac_boy>heh
20:48<Flygon>As much as the Steam Loco themselves were probably pretty good
20:48<Flygon>In fact, the first train to break 160km/h in Queensland wasn't a NG train
20:49<drac_boy>flygon don't forget that japan had extended steam life .. only because they did not go into diesels much so non-electric lines for obvious reason had nothing else to use till the eventual DD15 etc finally
20:49<Flygon>It was an SG branchline from New South Wales, using the XPT (a variant of the BR Intercity 125 train)
20:49<Flygon>Japan has much shorter lines, compared to USA and Australia. I imagine the costs of steam was less expensive to Japan.
20:49<drac_boy>even then passenger services at least had the KiHA which was a dmu
20:50<Flygon>Meanwhile, Queensland has some of Austalia's longest lines @_@
20:50<Flygon>Though, iirc, they did import some Diesels from Western Australia (who also use a large Narrow Gauge network, but mostly around Perth)
20:50<drac_boy>flygon well you could count the number of japan diesel locomotives on a single short piece of paper .. seriously
20:50<Flygon>Wow O_O
20:50<drac_boy>compared to a longer list for steam and several pages for electrics
20:50<drac_boy>no wonder japan had steam for as long as they did
20:51<Flygon>We won't show the Japanese lists of American, Australian, or Soviet Diesels, then :p
20:51<drac_boy>flygon actually here's the funny thing...
20:51<drac_boy>some of the early steam locomotives were direct american designs
20:52<drac_boy>even the cowcatcher is....a bit too familiar
20:52<Flygon>Isn't that because they got help from the Americans to build their early lines?
20:53<drac_boy>so why was it gauged to something not 4'8? ;)
20:53<Flygon>Because it was cheaper
20:53<drac_boy>actually it wasn't quite that
20:53<Flygon>Japan wanted to put a line through a mountainious region
20:53<drac_boy>it was british who shipped the initial rolling stocks
20:53<Flygon>Same reason Victoria used NG lines. Despite being historically BG crazy.
20:54<drac_boy>and strangely enough these colony wagons were narrow gauge
20:54<Dr_Tan>probably for the same reason
20:54<Dr_Tan>cheaper
20:54<Dr_Tan>easier to deploy in the mounitans
20:54<Flygon>Exactly
20:54<drac_boy>dr_tan it may have been different had british shipped some of their own actual wagons over :)
20:54<drac_boy>but who would know anymore :P
20:55<Flygon>Perhaps they timetraveled to the future and saw Puffing Billy as the epitome of railways :p
20:57<drac_boy>flygon but anyway by the time the 1950s was rolling on ... traffic was getting a bit bottlenecked ... and eventually after arguements including some personal ones the bullet design was eventually started .. and before you know it it eventually mushroomed to run all way north-south .. leaving the original rails for shorter distance trains alone instead
20:57<Flygon>If they wanted a bullet train, they'd contact NSWGR and ask for the design specs of 3801 :p
20:59<Flygon>The HSR that the Government wants to build here, probably wouldn't be independant rails all the way through
20:59<Flygon>Apperantly it'll be cheaper to upgrade some existing rails along the route... good luck, they'll have to realign 90% of the route. :p
21:00<drac_boy>here's another thing flygon...
21:00*Flygon listens
21:00<drac_boy>japan may have been slow with diesels but these days they may have some of the most advanced diesel in certain categories
21:00<Flygon>Oh?
21:00<drac_boy>including tilting express dmu trains (for the hokoi island up north .. little electrification at all there)
21:01<Flygon>Tilting Express Diesels, eh?
21:01<Flygon>http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7129/7792940352_1a28dba2ff_z.jpg :D
21:02<drac_boy>yeah....since they couldn't upper the track speed for safety reason (sighting mainly) they simply made the curves "less curvy" hence higher average speed over the entire route nevertheless
21:02<drac_boy>thats one of the good thing about tilting ... but japan sometimes was a bit too good at it
21:02<Flygon>Oooh?
21:03<drac_boy>flygon don't forget about that time uk tried it and found one "error" they should had not put there in first place....
21:03<drac_boy>it tilted "a bit too well" that people got seasick :->
21:03<Flygon>(also, Queensland actually bodged the Diesel and Electric Tilt Trains design a bit. Sure, it can go 210km/h+... but they used air for the tilt mechanism, to save money. It's apperantly uncomfortable)
21:03<drac_boy>apparently you're not supposed to fully compensate (for lack of wording) the curvation ... only partially
21:03<Flygon>Britian was still experimenting with the tilt mechanisms, they didn't know it'd happen like that
21:03<Flygon>Shame
21:04<Flygon>APT was a great concept
21:04<Flygon>Would have worked great in Australia, especially New South Wales
21:04<drac_boy>heh
21:04<Flygon>The XPT in NSW is gimped by Victorian era curves... so it ends up @ 50-60km/h instead of 160km/h+
21:05<Flygon>It's topped 193km/h (it's got lower gearing than the BR125)
21:05<drac_boy>btw flygon canada had a bit of "spotty" history mainly from the government level (what else is new?) ...
21:06<Flygon>(at least when Victoria decided to go for 160km/h+... they actually upgraded the damn tracks, and realigned them. :p)
21:06<drac_boy>there was the TurboTrain that was quite reliable later on and quite fast but before it had been 100% ironed out the gov told VIA to look elsewhere .... at the taxpayer's cost ... and thats how the LRC came .. but soon it was found out that their mechanical cable-worked tilting was faulty a lot of the times so the train was rebuilt to never tilt ... and well meh ... don't ask what replaced the LRC after only a short time again
21:06<drac_boy>too
21:07<Flygon>The Turbotrain had the potential for brilliance...
21:07<Flygon>Shame it never happened
21:08<drac_boy>even then the current EMD F40PH powered (diesel-electric) locomotive trains don't exactly have any worthy records ... it takes about the same time as a nonstopping car to travel between any two cities ... meaning about 100-120km/h average speed :|
21:09<drac_boy>flygon the funny thing tho is that at least the canadian turbotrain fared better than the usa ones .. amtrak basically 'drove them into the ground' mainly over not understanding their higher maintenance needs
21:09<Flygon>Don't more Canadians use coaches anyway? Partially due to how bad the train system is?
21:09<drac_boy>when amtrak tried to sell the few trainsets they had left to canada ... all the 2 canada people found were basically "rusty scraps" with nothing that could be even salvaged at all
21:09<Flygon>Geeze ._.
21:09<Flygon>Wow
21:09<drac_boy>so they didn't get anything except some small spare parts (chains, etc)
21:10<Flygon>I can't believe it got THAT bad
21:10<drac_boy>yeah
21:11<drac_boy>flygon btw the french-designed (as I think it was) RoHR turbine trains on amtrak were ok but they got sidelined for various reasons .. and mostly scrapped eventually just as well
21:12<Flygon>Amtrak don't seem to handle high speed diesel/turbine trains well >_>"
21:12<+glx>I don't think it's better for low speed ;)
21:13<drac_boy>flygon a bit funny thing tho is... the Acela electric locomotives? originally they were going to be of the push-pull kind .. but no fra stepped in saying no way to the cab control cars ... and so thats how they had to order double the locomotives in an expensive top-and-tail short train
21:13<Flygon>Hum?
21:13<drac_boy>only in the last few years have they finally been deciding to spare money to add more coaches to these trains .. making it finally more or less worthy it
21:13<Flygon>Both locos don't work at once?
21:13<drac_boy>nothing like having two 8000HP engines with only like maybe five coaches etc
21:13<Flygon>Or do they both push and pull?
21:13<drac_boy>stupid fra!
21:13<drac_boy>should had been just one 8000HP either pushing or pulling the coaches
21:14<Flygon>I honestly thing you're better off with push-pulling anyway
21:14<Flygon>More wheels driving the traction :p
21:14<drac_boy>flygon tell that to the fra .... X_X
21:14<Flygon>As in, push-pull here means, a loco on each end
21:15<Flygon>http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r293/VIEWLINER/PTA/WT1.jpg
21:15<drac_boy>at least interestingly enough the GO commuter system in toronto (canada) fell past the fra radar or something me think
21:15<drac_boy>they have one single locomotive dealing with up to 12 bilevel cars in both directions :)
21:16<Flygon>Interestingly, the H-sets would have had just 1 loco, with the other end being cab controlled
21:16<drac_boy>a few trains on occassional do get two locomotives but thats only due to crunching HEP loads (eg 16 coaches to power&heat)
21:16<Flygon>But the unions found that disgraceful
21:16<Flygon>And threatened to shut down the entire network unless there was a loco on each end
21:16<Flygon>Or, at least, not drive that specific train :p
21:17<Flygon>Mind: We have a LOT of level crossings here
21:24<drac_boy>Flygon about that Class Y picture I found before...
21:24<drac_boy>there was something a little alike to that in canada for a few years
21:25<drac_boy>narrow gauge diesel locomotive .. even although it had been built specifically for that it still got the nickname "mutant geep" because it did resemble a standard GP with wide overhangs over its track :)
21:25<Flygon>Heh...
21:25<Flygon>That wouldn't surprise me
21:25<Flygon>The push-pull locomotives in the pic I just show, are native 1600mm ones...
21:26<Flygon>But have been built on 1067mm too
21:26<drac_boy>http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/cn931.jpg thats one version of it
21:26<Flygon>Luckily, loading gauge was the sam
21:26<drac_boy>and yes the axles do look like they are "tucked under"
21:26<Flygon>Can barely see the wheels O_O
21:27<drac_boy>yeah the running boards extended out wider :)
21:28<drac_boy>flygon and its not just that one ... you know of the PCC trams?
21:28<Flygon>Yes
21:28<Flygon>We tested a PCC design here
21:28<Flygon>It wasn't successful. Only one cab :(
21:29<drac_boy>in at least one usa city .. they were ordered to standard or wide body .... on 3'6 trucks .. giving it a strange "hovering" effect because unless you shine a low light directly at it you can not even see anything in the dark black wheel wells :)
21:29<drac_boy>let me see if I can find that one
21:29<Flygon>O_O
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21:31<drac_boy>this is another one that lost the "wheel well" effect and had straight flat skirts instead .. but still .. you bloody can not see anything indeed http://www.sudswineandspirits.com/images/CTAGreenHornet2.jpg
21:31<drac_boy>most other ppc trams had it visible as it was only 1-2 inches far from the skirt due to standard gauge tracks
21:32<drac_boy>but these green ones.... normal body + narrow gauge = eh
21:32<Flygon>It really does hover O_o
21:32<drac_boy>flygon also as you noticed..they were ordered with the extra-long body too...hence the middle doors
21:33<drac_boy>normally its only two doors on the standard length ones after all
21:33*Flygon nod
21:33<Flygon>I don't think Melbourne ever got unarticulated 3 door trams
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21:34<drac_boy>flygon btw aside to the "green hornet" for their unusual narrow gauge take ... there were also a few PCC that were actually ordered with MU controls .. even if not all of them actually got used in pairs
21:34<drac_boy>I assume they were 2-crew worked by then .. one driver and one ticket-only conductor
21:35<drac_boy>(after all someone had to still staff the second one)
21:35<Flygon>Melbourne never had MU trams
21:36<Flygon>Adelaide does, however
21:36<Flygon>Though, trams in Melbourne can tow... but it's not true MU, obviously
21:37<Flygon>http://www.lightrailnow.org/images02/ade-lrt-Grand-Opening-Flexity-Hclass-20071014x25_Pascal-Labhart.jpg Tram on right is in EMU
21:40<Flygon>The Gleneng MU trams can operate in MU in Melbourne, however
21:46<drac_boy>so flygon what are you doing now anyway? :)
21:47<Flygon>Games :p
21:51<drac_boy>heh which one?
21:52<Flygon>Ragnarok Online x.x
21:52<Flygon>A private server
21:52<drac_boy>oh :p
21:52<drac_boy>me I'm a bit busy trying to figure out some suggestive locomotive specs while talking on irc :)
21:53<Flygon>Suggestive?
21:53<drac_boy>especially trying to balance the few 40-50kph ones
21:53<drac_boy>well yeah :)
21:53<Flygon>Ah
21:53<drac_boy>I'm still wondering if 50kph should be the minimum or 40 is ok
21:53<drac_boy>hard to say
21:53<Flygon>Depends on the freight
21:53<Flygon>Le Belge is nearly useless, though
21:54<Flygon>Though, Australia's first locos are British imports...
21:54<drac_boy>this is 1920 and upward mind you :)
21:54<Flygon>Ah
21:55<Flygon>OpenTTD needs a more variatous Victorian era game
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22:04<drac_boy>btw I finally thought of what I wanted to do with the third track type..but its hmm a bit of surprise so I'll wait for the public version of tracking table first :P
22:05*Flygon nod
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22:05<drac_boy>not sure if theres anyone here for a newgrf question again but hmm anyway....
22:07<drac_boy>can you only have a fixed or variable train consist or is a mix of both somewhat plausible? say you buy what is a 4-car MU set but it still allows you to add more individual coaches to make it longer than 4 if needed ... you just can't remove it to <4
22:09<Flygon>On a related question
22:09<Flygon>Can you have two motor cars in an EMU
22:09<Flygon>But rest trailers?
22:09<Flygon>And specify if trailers are motored or not?
22:10<Flygon>Comeng/Hitachi trains are... interesting :p
22:11<drac_boy>actually someone mentioned it before..use the wagon callback I think?
22:11<drac_boy>or was it a loco callback for wagons? either way it should be under action0 or callbacks I think
22:13<drac_boy>hmmm whats another word to use for 'passengers' .. something shorter maybe :s
22:18<drac_boy>nevermind...might be better tomorrow..going to sleep now -_-
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