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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-17

---Logopened Mon Dec 17 00:00:13 2012
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06:57<drac_boy>hi Bad_Brett :)
06:57<Bad_Brett>hi drac_boy! :D
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06:59<Bad_Brett>what are you up to?
07:00<drac_boy>thinking about locomotives a bit, you?
07:01<Bad_Brett>drawing bridges!
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07:06*drac_boy could like some bridges but sees thats on the bottom of the todo list tho :p
07:08<Bad_Brett>what project are you working on again?
07:11<drac_boy>more or less a 'generic country' grf set? :->
07:13<Bad_Brett>cool, do you have a developement thread at the forums?
07:15<drac_boy>no...may have a small website up when the table's ready for public tho
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07:22<Bad_Brett>i seldom stick to the toto list... it's so boring :)
07:22<Bad_Brett>toto list? that doesn't sound good...
07:23<@peter1138>could be worse, could be the tutu list
07:25<drac_boy>heh heh
07:33<InducTrackerOTTD>Hmm, I should see to making an improved world map heightmap, aswell as one for africa, and at least two polar projection square world height maps
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>don't use one of the projections that produce a rectangle standing on its edge. use one that fits better in a rectangle standing on the corner
07:35<InducTrackerOTTD>I don't follow
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07:37<Eddi|zuHause>most projections out there try to map the world onto a sheet of paper
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>that necessarily means that the northern and southern regions are stretched out
07:38<InducTrackerOTTD>yes, I know about map distortions
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>but if you have an OTTD world, the map stands on a corner, so you need to draw the northern and southern regions together
07:38<InducTrackerOTTD>"stands on a corner" I have no idea what yo mean
07:39<InducTrackerOTTD>I don't see how it matters, in which direciton the grid is rotated
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>the OTTD map is narrow at the top and bottom, the "sheet of paper" is not
07:39<Flygon>OpenTTD could really use a map system where you can go left and right
07:40<Flygon>Like in Civilization/SMACX
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>so you have completely different goals of a projection
07:40<InducTrackerOTTD>Eddi|zuHause: you can rotate a world map you know
07:40<InducTrackerOTTD>I do not have different goals, from projecting the sphere to a flat plane
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>InducTrackerOTTD: but then north is not north anymore
07:40<InducTrackerOTTD>Eddi|zuHause: so what?
07:40<InducTrackerOTTD>I can put north to bottom+right if I wish, you know =)
07:41<InducTrackerOTTD>also, north is north whichever way you rotate a map
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>InducTrackerOTTD: it's a problem a lot of "heightmaps" have, because they stupidly and senselessly rotate the map by 45° (to make it easier)
07:41<InducTrackerOTTD>Eddi|zuHause: I don't see any "stupidity" or "lack of sense" in such a practice
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>i do.
07:41<InducTrackerOTTD>Well, you apply that to your own heightmap designs, will ya? =)
07:41<Flygon>Depends on the hightmap
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i apply that to all my heightmaps :)
07:42<InducTrackerOTTD>PS: you might be into pseudocylindrical projections if you go experimenting with rhomboid maps
07:44<Flygon>I tried rotating my own heightmap by 45 degrees, but got unwanted distortions
07:45<InducTrackerOTTD>Eddi|zuHause: altho I will have to agree that with polar-centered azimuthal equidistant projection ... the orientation, in one sense becomes agnostic to our dispute =D
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: civ-y maps have their own problems
07:49<InducTrackerOTTD>I love me some hex based civ maps
07:49<Flygon>Such as that they can't go all directions...
07:50<Flygon>Only Up-Down or Left-Right
07:50<Flygon>Unless you have a literal flat earth :p
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: civ4 can go toroidal as well (at least in the space mod)
07:50<Flygon>I've only played CivII and SMACX
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>there's a SMAC mod for Civ4 :)
07:51<Flygon>Reverse engineering the SMACX heightmap method would be cool
07:51<Flygon>Use OpenTTD heightmaps in SMACX :D
07:52<Flygon>Civ4 lacks an altitude system
07:52<Flygon>But the issue is... SMACX heightmaps are more complex than OpenTTD
07:52<Flygon>Due to having oceanic depth
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: the SMAC mod uses a simplified height mechanism (basically only 2 height levels above sea)
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>well, 3
07:54<Flygon>SMACX had any altitude from -3500 to 3500 :p
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>low, medium and high
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>where you can't go from low to high with normal units
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>(only helicopters and formers)
07:59<drac_boy>theres no way to tell if vehiclepool is on or off from grf or is there?
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: checked the global patch flags?
08:02<Eddi|zuHause> | ((_settings_game.vehicle.dynamic_engines ? 1 : 0) << 0x18) // dynamic engines
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: PS: the "vehlicle pool" is always on
08:07<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause so you mean ottd doesn't care if two incompactibe classes clashes together or does it at least disable one of two grf when that happens?
08:07<drac_boy>just wondering re that
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: a) you have a complete misunderstanding what the "vehicle pool" is, and b) openttd separates the two engines if "dynamic engines" [aka "allow multiple vehicle sets"] is set, otherwise one just overwrites the other
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08:12<drac_boy>oh hm overwrite sounds a bit better...sorry for asking
08:12<drac_boy>thanks :P
08:21<drac_boy>going for a bit now..have too much to type on my own now anyway :p
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09:52<@planetmaker>salut Belugas
09:53<@Belugas>sir maker :) glad to salute you back!
09:53<@Belugas>heading for a party of Doom Day friday?
09:54<@planetmaker>:-) I haven't yet planned for that, admittedly :-)
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10:15<Eddi|zuHause>where does one get DOOM from nowadays?
10:16<Bad_Brett>oh no
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>my steam doesn't work :/
10:17<Bad_Brett>steam is terrible
10:17<Bad_Brett>it makes me SO MAD
10:17<Bad_Brett>those bastards
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>it's not that bad when it works...
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>but it suddenly stopped logging in
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>some kind of networking problem
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>but i can't isolate it
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>and nobody else has that problem :/
10:21<Bad_Brett>i don't like the idea that they can shut down my account, with all my games, without a warning
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>that is indeed a problem of the "cloud" times
10:23<Bad_Brett>yep... you don't really buy games from steam, you rent them... i think it's a dirty business
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>you _can_ use steam in offline mode...
10:35<Pinkbeas1>Or, more to the point, shut it down because they assert the right to vary the T&Cs as they please and want to bring in a change to your disadvantage.
10:35-!-Pinkbeas1 is now known as Pinkbeast
10:35<Pinkbeast>... which is flagrantly unenforcable under EU law, but what are you going to do, sue them?
10:36<Pinkbeast>And which has happened already with the changes to class action law in the US.
10:36<Pinkbeast>I honestly trusted Valve to have got digital distribution right. Apparently, I'm a mug. I don't want to live in a world where RMS is always right in the end, but I do.
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10:55<Bad_Brett>hi drac_boy! :D
10:57<drac_boy>how're you?
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11:13<Bad_Brett>great, thanks for asking!
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11:14<Bad_Brett>let me have your opinion on something
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11:16<Bad_Brett>i made a bold move and decided to try to add shadows to my bridges, which is kind of impossible...
11:17<Bad_Brett>so the question is: do you think it looks weird?
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11:23<LordAro> a bitdark perhaps
11:23<LordAro>and probably completely impossible to do well for all situations
11:23<LordAro>but, like all other things you do, looks awesome :)
11:30<Bad_Brett>yeah i know... the problem is that this requires some overlapping
11:31<Bad_Brett>which means that the shadows will be darker on higher bridges
11:31<@peter1138>that does look fucking awesome
11:31<@peter1138>if only our bridge heights weren't so wacky :-(
11:33<Bad_Brett>thank you
11:34<Bad_Brett>but it's quite fun to try to get around the limitations
11:46<drac_boy>I always did wonder about "max bridge height limit" but it seem impossible to possibly code something like that in :/
11:47<drac_boy>at least max bridge length works for whats needed of it
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11:49<drac_boy>nothing like making a bridge be only buildable one single height level high I guess :->
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11:52<Bad_Brett>my feeling is that very few players build high bridges
11:52<LordAro>that would probably be true
11:52<drac_boy>Bad_Brett well there are certain bridge sprites that shouldn't be built so high up .. they look weird with skinny tall piers you know?
11:53<@peter1138>i was refering to bridges being 8 pixels higher than the ground, and vehicles being 12-14 pixels tall (at standard zoom)
11:53<Bad_Brett>ah alright i see
11:53<drac_boy>did anyone actually build a bricks viaduct that was more than 2km high up up there? I doubt the bricks themself were made for that were they?
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11:54<@peter1138>a 2km high viaduct? no, i don't think such a thing exists ;p
11:54<Bad_Brett>2km? hahhaha
11:54<Bad_Brett>that would be insane
11:55<drac_boy>well Bad_Brett thats what it looks like in arctic maps tbh
11:55<drac_boy>even if its scale isn't quite perfect
11:55<Bad_Brett>i see your point
11:56<@peter1138>that is a pretty impressive viaduct though
11:56<drac_boy>Bad_Brett and then theres a lot of bridges that would be perfect if they were limited to only 1 tiles height ... especially the ones used by real railroads to cross wet lands a few feet high up
11:57<@peter1138>(aka bridge)
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11:57<@peter1138>the road deck is 270 metres above the base of the valley
11:57<Bad_Brett>hopefully bridges will get implemented in nml in the future
11:58<drac_boy>this is only a model but same idea tho
11:58<Bad_Brett>heh, i just googled that one as well :)
11:58<drac_boy>its only one horizontal beam .. and some cheap vertical woods ... not very stable but for a low height it didn't matter
11:58<@peter1138>that's basically what the wood bridge is for, heh
11:58<drac_boy>peter1138 then where's one rated for 100kph yet? :)
11:59<@peter1138>crazy, that thing could snap any time ;p
11:59<drac_boy>well they were common across usa .. even with modern Dash-CW units running across them
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: unpassable bridges like this might be possible as "objects with statemachine"
11:59<Bad_Brett>that one kinda looks like my bridge
12:00<drac_boy>and believe it or not but a Dash-CW is kinda heavy n fast ;)
12:00<drac_boy>its only standard wood framed trestles that are often removed for metal version because they're too old and/or light
12:00<drac_boy>but the low-marsh bridges often stay for a very long time
12:02<drac_boy>its not exactly 'low' but this is a similar version out of concrete instead
12:02<drac_boy>could work for higher heights too tho..just make the piers thicker
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: i'm fairly sure the more-heightlevels-patch has a maximum bridge height
12:03<@peter1138>hmm, best to avoid the london tube on 13th jan
12:03<@peter1138>they're gonna run a steam train on it
12:03<drac_boy>mm sounds good. I was just throwing comments around tho. I don't really understand in-game bridges that much anyway
12:03<drac_boy>what do any of you think about concrete bridges btw?
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>concrete in opposition to abstract?
12:04<drac_boy>as in compared to steel I guess
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>or as in made of cement mixture
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>and what's there to think about?
12:05<@peter1138>it better be reinforced
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>the german word is "Spannbeton"
12:05<drac_boy>meh .. anyway for me I like them both small and large providing the top is insulated in some way (ballast or rubber layer on top etc) re vibratation reduction
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>no idea how to translate that
12:05<drac_boy>doesn't have rust issue unlike steel .. although cheap sand or water can be an issue
12:06<drac_boy>one of the major bridge built to replace a twisty steep rail route in usa ... is still there in original condition more than 50 years later
12:06<Bad_Brett>this would be a cool disaster in OpenTTD:
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>concrete has the problem of lower lifetime
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, gtg
12:07<drac_boy>Bad_Brett I doubt they really could do it anymore nowaday especially with regulations and unions red tapes all over the place but ....
12:08<drac_boy>used to be if a major link bridge fell either due to accident or really bad weather ... the military could help .. and pretty much put a "temporary" steel bridge in in only a few weeks or less. sometimes in some case it was sturdy enough to be left there for permament instead
12:09<drac_boy>1920-1950's is where I recall reading a lot of stories about these
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: bridge washouts was certainly one of the most annoying parts of railroad tycoon
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>(next to the station limit)
12:09<drac_boy>in one case the route was through a mountain that had lot of snowslide problems ... after rescuing the derailed train from the valley ... the military put a new bridge up in only 9 days against all the snow swalls
12:09<Bad_Brett>you just have to build stone bridges
12:09<Bad_Brett>problem solved :)
12:10<drac_boy>I mean .. think about it .. a remote location high up in mountain .. and NINE DAYS for a full bridge?!
12:10<drac_boy>they sure could work fast
12:10<Bad_Brett>nine days? sounds insane
12:10<drac_boy>aye...the old days sure were different eh?
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>well, during the last phase of WWII, the nazis destroyed pretty much every bridge on their retreat
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>so bridge building skills would surely come in handy for the allied army
12:12<drac_boy>theres that too yeah
12:13<drac_boy>also on both sides they sometimes had to do regauging too
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12:22<drac_boy>anyway need to figure out lunch as usual -_-
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12:38<LordAro>hey Terkhen
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12:57<Bad_Brett>hi Terkhen!
12:57<LordAro>bit late :P
12:58<Bad_Brett>dammit :)
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13:42<Wolf01>hello :D
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24824 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2012-12-17 18:45:40 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 83 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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14:00<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
14:00<@Terkhen>how are things going? :)
14:00<andythenorth>let's say good
14:01<andythenorth>I could use more time :P
14:01<andythenorth>who couldn't?
14:01<andythenorth>apart from students, who have an abundance of the stuff
14:01<@Terkhen>yes :(
14:01<andythenorth>even my kids want more time to play
14:01<@Terkhen>since I'm not a student anymore, my time is quite scarce
14:01<andythenorth>bath time comes far too early for them
14:02<@Terkhen>lately I only have time for a single task each evening before dinner :P
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14:03<andythenorth>dinner is the task :P
14:03<andythenorth>except when my wife kindly makes it (most days) :P
14:03<@Terkhen>if I cooked real food I would have even less time :P
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15:22<andythenorth>this is a 4,000hp locomotive
15:22<andythenorth>this appears to be common in former soviet union
15:22<andythenorth>or some guys really like taking pictures of single coach trains with 4,000hp locomotives
15:22<@Alberth>it doesn't look that way :)
15:25<@Alberth>not exciting at all :)
15:26<FLHerne>andythenorth: Are they a little short on electrification?
15:27<andythenorth>they apparently are short on 1,000hp railcars :P
15:27<FLHerne>No-one's built any diesels much more powerful than a Deltic here, because we have 5000hp electrics :-)
15:27<FLHerne>Although your second one is an electric :P
15:28*FLHerne appears to have entirely missed the point on the first attempt :P
15:28<FLHerne>Nice single-car loco-hauled trains :-)
15:29<andythenorth>the new UK ugly things are 3,690hp
15:32<FLHerne>Eurolight whatsits?
15:32<FLHerne>Or the 70s?
15:32<FLHerne>Both are hideous, just a choice between 'nasty smoothed boxy lumps' or 'weirdly blobby' :P
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16:05<drac_boy>how doing?
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16:11<InducTrackerOTTD>Them soviet stile locos sure look familiar there, andythenorth =)
16:11<InducTrackerOTTD>Not the single coach chaining, but the loco
16:12<InducTrackerOTTD>Also, shortage of electrification is present, FLHerne =(
16:15<FLHerne>InducTrackerOTTD: Thought so :P
16:15<InducTrackerOTTD>I'm pretty sure those carriages are trailing there for ferry run crew comfort/safety or whatever
16:15<FLHerne>Is that rumour that many Soviet diesels are quite direct descendants of 'Kestrel' true?
16:16<InducTrackerOTTD>or is that called transit
16:16<@Alberth>drac_boy: found a new bug in Mercurial :p
16:16<drac_boy>alberth whats that?
16:16<InducTrackerOTTD>I have no idea what a Kestrel is, also, I'm not educated in locomotive geneaolgy
16:16<InducTrackerOTTD>Mercurial still > than Git, right?
16:17<FLHerne>InducTrackerOTTD: It's this thing:
16:18<FLHerne>Built as a state-of-the-art demonstrator loco for BR, then sold to the USSR in 1971 for some reason :P
16:18<@Alberth>drac_boy: basically, it keeps track of the changes that you make in your files (at the moment you want). You can later look at them, search them, give them to others, etc
16:19<@Alberth>very useful for writing patches of a certain transport simulation game :p
16:19<FLHerne>Some people insist that some/many Soviet loco designs are derived from it in some way ;-)
16:21<InducTrackerOTTD>FLHerne: I do know a quite different tipe of propulsion engine by the name of Kestrel tho =D
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16:21*drac_boy rather go with git thank you
16:22<drac_boy>flherne mm btw when I was talking with someone (brett or flygon..I forgot) the mention of BR APT came up ... I thought I recall that almost all problems with it were solved but they sold the technology to another country instead?
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16:22<FLHerne>drac_boy: Indeed :-/
16:22<drac_boy>FLHerne now now...don't ask about politicians and rails in north america....or you'll get badly torched ;)
16:23<FLHerne>Same happened to TSR-2, and the early peroxide rockets, and far too many other things :-(
16:24<drac_boy>VIA - turbotrain was a bit hard at first but slowly became very reliable ... but gov told them to look elsewhere and they got the troublesome LRC instead (its tilting was eventually removed) ...
16:24<drac_boy>and don't ask about amtrak's several "quits" on highspeed trains till they finally got these overpriced underused (at the time) Acela locomotives
16:25<drac_boy>I still wonder about the few days an ICE-1 train actually ran in northeast usa :p
16:26<FLHerne>We still don't have domestic HSR here :-(
16:27<FLHerne>We do have a lot more >100mph running than in the US, IIRC, but nothing >125mph except the Eurostars...
16:27<FLHerne>Annoyingly, there are three train fleets designed for 140mph but not permitted to run that fast
16:28<FLHerne>And of course APT was built for 155mph in the 80s :-(
16:29*Rubidium wonders why every country reinvents the high speed train with all its initial faults
16:30<Rubidium>e.g. the V250 which, after four years of testing, manages to arrive at the destination in a whopping 3 out of 4 times
16:35<andythenorth>Rubidium: these ones just kind of work
16:35<andythenorth>the brakes smell funny
16:35<InducTrackerOTTD>I wonder how long until turbine-electric hybrid locos replace diesle-electrics =D
16:35<andythenorth>and they arsed about with APT for years before HST
16:35<andythenorth>UK runs some of the fastest point-point passenger trains in the world
16:36<Rubidium>they should just have bought a few of <- those in 38000 series
16:37<andythenorth>we don't have the track for them :P
16:37<Rubidium>mostly because they are known to run on the track where the V250 runs
16:37<andythenorth>we run insanely fast on existing lines, mostly built around 1840-1850 :P
16:37<andythenorth>also this man is worth reading about:
16:37<Rubidium>(since those Thalyses are already running there)
16:38<Rubidium>andythenorth: I seem to remember, somewhere, that in the UK the fastest (timetabled) trains ran on steam
16:38<andythenorth>maybe once upon a time :P
16:39<Rubidium>maybe now the Eurostar beats them, but that might not be quite true
16:39<Rubidium>since they are *slow* in the tunnel
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17:15<drac_boy>that reminds me, are turbines only good for nonstop express trains or probably theres other uses too?
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>turbines are probably rather one of the total oddities
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17:20<Eddi|zuHause>you have an engine that produces 8000hp, and needs 6000hp of it to keep running, the other 2000hp are useful for traction etc.
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>only few of these entered service throughout europe
17:23<drac_boy>I know there were a few turbine trainsets too .. can't imagine how having a turbine located several inches underneath the seats must had been like tho?
17:23<drac_boy>french one for example as I recall ^
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>e.g some of the german TEE trains (Trans Europ Express) were refitted with turbines, to get more power
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>and some diesel engines as well, but those had technical troubles so they stopped using the turbine
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>and ran only with the remaining conventional engine
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>(i.e. with half power than originally)
17:24<Kjetil>I'm still waiting for the Umbrella corp. nuclear powered train
17:25<drac_boy>reminds me of one site about early uk locomotives for industrial lines...
17:25<drac_boy>apparently the petrol/diesel engines they used were sometimes weak on power that at least one company sold a boiler+diesel locomotive that used steam to get moving then diesel to keep it going .. but it did not quite work so well tho
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>this is a german TEE train:
17:26<drac_boy>at least a few more years later the engines were strong enogh that the varying 0-4-0T's finally looked like they would be 'old' for good
17:28<drac_boy>Kjetil that would have a lot of problem in real life .. but in-game .. why not? ;)
17:30<Kjetil> - heh :P
17:30<InducTrackerOTTD>Eddi|zuHause: hence why they are a perfect match for electric-hybrid, rather than e-direct drive
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>what the hä?
17:31<InducTrackerOTTD>only turning them over for max power, for however long charging the storage takes
17:31<drac_boy>electric should be straight electric silly
17:31<InducTrackerOTTD>drac_boy: I'm not talking about electric electric, but a transmission technology for IC locos
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>InducTrackerOTTD: german engines tend to be diesel-hydraulic
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>not diesel-electric
17:32<InducTrackerOTTD>yeah well, diesels are known for having a wider tolerable working speed range
17:32<InducTrackerOTTD>hybrid, my emphasis was on hybrid, obviously
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>... which is why the fastest trains were electric ones?
17:33<InducTrackerOTTD>I'm not even talking about speed here
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>InducTrackerOTTD: you are not making any sense
17:33<InducTrackerOTTD>freighters seem to be the most frequent applications for non-grid powered locos
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>please start your thought from the beginning
17:34<InducTrackerOTTD>There's no beginning to something endless =)
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17:36<InducTrackerOTTD>I'm saying, with the way tech is developing, I'm hoping it's soon that turbines start giving some competition to diesel locos again
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17:37<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's a dead technology
17:37<drac_boy>yeah .. turbines were only good for long non-stop trains .. which is exactly where HS electrficiation already leaves us at anyway
17:38<drac_boy>you have to admit UP for running a few different types for as long as they did till Bunker C finally wasn't a cheap "waste" from refineries
17:39<drac_boy>hm by HS I meant High Speed ... tgv, ice, take your name
17:40<+michi_cc>Indeed. All the modern advancements of turbine efficiency are mostly only usable for constant (high) power output. Trains don't need constant high power. They need a big peak to accelerate and then almost idle to hold speed.
17:40<InducTrackerOTTD>That's only ture because historical turbine locos were forced to power the loco on turbine power continuously, with electric hybrid transmission technology applied to locos that is no longer the case. turbine only runs at max efficiency to generate electricity when the charge is low enough, not directly propelling the train
17:41<drac_boy>michi_cc interestingly enough thats why GM has been pushing diesel/battery-drive buses to certain locations ... after all for example the 200hp engine is always on to provide cruising speed and climate loads while the battery more or less deals with accerlations
17:41<InducTrackerOTTD>energy storage technologies that would've enabled duty cycling a turbine like that didn't exist
17:41<drac_boy>better than a 420hp engine thats working full time at accerlation but then has little use when already moving basically
17:41<InducTrackerOTTD>which is where electric drive comes to help out
17:42<InducTrackerOTTD>turbine doesn't even need to deliver the peak power, the storage pack and drive motors do
17:43<+michi_cc>InducTrackerOTTD: Duty cycling a turbine is the easiest way to prematurely break it. High fuel efficiency means high burning temperature. Alternating between high temperatures and low temperatures for idle will break every material very fast.
17:44<InducTrackerOTTD>michi_cc: you forget that pre-heating technologies in automotive products are proving themselves right now
17:44<drac_boy>michi_cc indeed ... I can't imagine even modern steel being able to deal with going between 100C and 500C many times a day without getting brittle or something
17:44<InducTrackerOTTD>designing a turbine with external heating in mind should be a trivial matter, compared to designing a wide power range turbine
17:44<+michi_cc>And a turbine/battery hybrid doesn't make economic sense. For a few hp's diesel engines will simply be a lot cheaper.
17:45<InducTrackerOTTD>except that's not true, diesels are only cheaper due to scale of manufacturing
17:45<InducTrackerOTTD>inherently turbines are simpler mechanically, and should be cheaper and more reliable
17:46<InducTrackerOTTD>Certanly, as you mentioned, high temperatures bring their own problems to material's technology. Still, I'd place my bet on that, rather than the hundreds or thousand sof moving/reciprocating parts
17:48<+michi_cc>drac_boy: We're not talking about 500°C, modern engines have flame temperatures in excess of 2200°C at full load. Not exactly a good target for pre-heating.
17:49<InducTrackerOTTD>Yeah well, I'm sure the flame-heads will think of something, induction heating or what have you =)
17:49<drac_boy>michi_cc mm yeah I was just using a random number to remark about wide temperature changes
17:50<InducTrackerOTTD>I'm pretty hopeful about a few years of automotive experiments in marketing the same will re-ignite interest in locomotive research into that. I was recently reminded that the former is still only just an idea on paper =\
17:50<InducTrackerOTTD>So there goes my turbine exhaust pipe dream for now =D
17:50<+michi_cc>InducTrackerOTTD: Uselessly heating something to 2200°C is somewhat incompatible with energy efficient. Better skip the turbine and use the energy directly for propulsion.
17:51<InducTrackerOTTD>How do you figure really? AFAIK turbines would use recuperators, so within the best of our ability exhaust heat is recaptured into the inputs again
17:51<Sturmi>preheating to 2k °C quite incompatible to steel too ;)
17:52<InducTrackerOTTD>high temp turbines ain't your garden variety steel anyway
17:52<InducTrackerOTTD>hot zone stuff
17:52<InducTrackerOTTD>michi_cc: it's also not just heat for heat's sake, it's all for expanding gas =)
17:54<@DorpsGek>FLHerne: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>InducTrackerOTTD: i think you're missing the point. the problem was keeping the heat while the turbine is idle, to prevent excessive wear on the material
17:56<drac_boy>that does remind me michi_cc do you think diesel is the 'best' fuel for a small 1.4L 4-inline engine? something like say a light industrial railway locomotive or mm yeah
17:57<InducTrackerOTTD>Grah, linux headaches
17:58<FLHerne>InducTrackerOTTD: What sort?
17:58<InducTrackerOTTD>Eddi|zuHause, michi_cc: also, bearings are doubtfully at combustion chamber temperatures, and Eddi, as I was arguing with michi, in the case we're viewing, there's no need to maintain idling
17:58*FLHerne has been having them today too :-(
17:58<InducTrackerOTTD>dunno, over-extended firefox or flash(unlikely) fudged up my window manager, FLHerne
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>InducTrackerOTTD: kwin --replace
17:59<InducTrackerOTTD>terminating FF in tty did the trick
17:59<+michi_cc>Diesel has the most energy per volume among the easily usable fuels, so diesel engines will generally use less fuel. It's definitely not the best for pollution though.
17:59<InducTrackerOTTD>But now my handicapped WM is steering me to reboot
18:00<InducTrackerOTTD>burning diesel fuel in a turbine would improve on that =P
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>it would produce more pollution for sure ;)
18:00<FLHerne>InducTrackerOTTD: Use a less handicapped WM :P
18:00<drac_boy>michi_cc NOx or something else was it?
18:00<drac_boy>I think I was suppose to remember but I'm not sure
18:01<InducTrackerOTTD>FLHerne: it's only handicapped after it gets shelled D=
18:01<FLHerne>Restart the WM, then?
18:01<InducTrackerOTTD>It would produce less pollution for certain ;)
18:01<InducTrackerOTTD>FLHerne: what's the point, my xorg dependent apps are hooked on it
18:01<+michi_cc>Big oil turbines need to employ things like water injection to manage somewhat sane pollution levels.
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>InducTrackerOTTD: since when do xorg apps "depend" on a window manager?
18:02<FLHerne>InducTrackerOTTD: Nope, restarting the WM shouldn't be a problem
18:02<InducTrackerOTTD>Hmm, got some educational reading on that topic, that you can recall, michi_cc?
18:02<FLHerne>If doing stuff to the WM affects an app, that app is being very unusual :-/
18:03<+michi_cc>drac_boy: Everything really. The longer the hydrocarbon molecules, the harder it is to get a clean reaction. It's all downhill starting from methane.
18:03<InducTrackerOTTD>FLHerne: I've argued that in my distro's troll cave enough already, it takes unmanageable hours of educating little me to figure out the relevant processes, I don't even screen my IRC or anything
18:03<drac_boy>michi_cc mm
18:03<FLHerne>openbox --replace is my usual response to WM failure :P
18:04<drac_boy>methane......can you say......farting? (seriously I have seem some weird tv shows about the danger of farting gas especially when lighting up a pipe in the bathroom)
18:04<FLHerne>Or just killall kwin;kwin
18:05<FLHerne>If I still want to keep the shinyness for some reason
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: how large are the chances he actually meant the desktop environment instead of the window manager?
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18:05<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: No idea. I don't know him or his competence level
18:05<InducTrackerOTTD>Doesn't seem like --replace is something my Awesome (not so much?) mentions
18:05<InducTrackerOTTD>or knows of
18:05*FLHerne assumes people are competent until proven otherwise :-)
18:06<InducTrackerOTTD>Save yourself some time and assume nothing? =p
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: dunno, some of the last sentences made me doubt :)
18:06<drac_boy>anyway one little thing I had been wondering about....
18:06<+michi_cc>InducTrackerOTTD: Section R of the Dubbel or the my old turbomachinery script. The prof used to develop turbines at Siemens. But unless you know German it won't really help you :)
18:07<FLHerne>InducTrackerOTTD: There's no point asking someone if they're competent :P
18:07<FLHerne>If they aren't, they don't know :P
18:07<drac_boy>I know that high speed trains slow down at curve unless they can compensate with tilting....but the question is...if it was a freight-only train (mails, crated goods, whatever) could the nontilting train still take curve faster because its only the cab crew that have to mind their likely-padded seat but noone else
18:07<InducTrackerOTTD>michi_cc: I think it would be a semi-nice motivation to refresh my german skills =D
18:07<FLHerne>So it's necessary to assume something
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>and if they are, they're too smart to admit it :)
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18:08<InducTrackerOTTD>No I'm not suggesting flat out asking first, that would be a waste of time, but I'm suggesting not assuming as a first step, and always deriving the answer to whether or not on the go
18:08<InducTrackerOTTD>This... sounds like me needing some sleep
18:09<KenjiE20>drac_boy: don't mail trains have sorting offices on them.. so they would probably have to abide the same way pax would
18:09<drac_boy>KenjiE20 mm I was assuming it was only stored bags ... already processed before it got to the station
18:09<drac_boy>but ^_^
18:10<KenjiE20>I know our overnight stuff have(had) sorting in transit
18:10<+michi_cc>Not my script obviously, but I except a lot of it ended up in that book.
18:11<drac_boy>heh well KenjiE20 I guess I should mention 'uncrewed freights' then perhaps?
18:11<KenjiE20>ah, nvm
18:11<KenjiE20>they ended that 04
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18:12<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: but then you'd have to define a timetable variable based on the cargo
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>which is a horrible nightmare
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>and freight trains aren't optimised for speed anyway
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>so it's a total waste of everybodys time
18:13<InducTrackerOTTD>michi_cc: thanks
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18:15<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause then why are a lot of things airfreighted even although theres no route that can't be paralleled by a high speed line? maybe I shouldn't bother trying understand that :)
18:15<@Terkhen>good night
18:15<drac_boy>sea airfreight I can understand since ships don't have any means to go really fast at reasonable cost
18:15<KenjiE20>drac_boy: rail networks are often far too full of pax to squeeze a cargo in
18:16<drac_boy>KenjiE20 tell that to the yellow tgv trainsets? and even although its not exactly normal freight .. what about the vehicles on eurostar especially loaded lorries
18:16<InducTrackerOTTD>You know, I was pondering ekranoplan ships for openttd the other day
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18:26<drac_boy>hm anyway for now I guess I'll go with slight higher speeds for non-pax
18:26<literal>has the option to anchor the landscaping tools to the railway tools been removed? I can't find it
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18:33<+glx>drac_boy: yellow tgv is postal service
18:35<drac_boy>glx my point...its freight technically
18:35<+glx>but only runs during night
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>it also runs on lines that don't really have speed-limiting curves
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18:48<drac_boy>slightly on another topic - sometimes I wonder if andy and/or george ever run into the problem of trying not to make too-long industry chains
18:49<drac_boy>one I could imagine would be oil > refined oil > chemicals (+wood) > paper > goods > [town] ... would be quite a network just to get that one cargo done with
18:49<drac_boy>at least theres a lot of simple ones like coal>powerplant or even oil>fuel>town
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18:51<Eddi|zuHause>long chains are not necessarily more difficult than heavily interconnected chains
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>if you find a sane design, you can run it past andy for an "economy"
18:52<drac_boy>true I guess it depends on what kind of network style you like
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>or make an own set
18:52<drac_boy>heh yeah that I keep thinking about ... trains and cargos first tho :)
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19:01<drac_boy>about industries I still have to see anything regarding this but can you specify custom build before/after dates or is it only 1950 and 1960 respectly?
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19:17*drac_boy curses traction miscalculations
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19:25<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: yes, you can modify the appearance probabilites by callback based on year and you can prevent industry construction by callback also
19:26<hnk>why are all the captains drunk?
19:26<drac_boy>hmm building a new futuristic plant in 2030 could had been something .. maybe chemicals + steel = hovercrafts (instead of just plain road vehicles) :P
19:26<drac_boy>not my kind of things tho ;)
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: keep in mind that you'd be dragging a useless cargo through the centures then
19:29<drac_boy>yeah theres that
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>and 32 cargos are too many anyway
19:41<drac_boy>dumb answer: who said you had to use all 32?
20:03<drac_boy>is this wikipage even going anywhere anyway? last editted jan 2012 and only one author is even listed
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20:46<drac_boy>seem like it doesn't matter...anyone just using their own random ids anyway apparently
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21:02*Flygon shakes drac_boy
21:04*drac_boy dumps flygon into a cement mixer for a better shake
21:04<drac_boy>heh heh how're you?
21:05<Flygon>I'm well enough
21:05<Flygon>You mate?
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21:08<drac_boy>doing ok
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21:13<drac_boy>flygon you know how sometimes they build rather simple wood bridges over a track as to avoid having to make a crossing especially if its only for foot traffics? and far away from any apparent stations too
21:14<Flygon>We prefer concrete bridges here :P
21:14<Flygon>But, go on
21:15<drac_boy>well sometimes they have their own interesting story .. as one article quoted "...engine was working hard as we went underneath the footbridge. you could see the planks rising upward from all that force!"
21:15<drac_boy>either the nails were old .. or someone forgot to nail them down in the first place and gravity did a number heh :)
21:16<Flygon>Proooobably why we use Steel-Concrete bridges :p
21:16<drac_boy>the pressure from a smokestack even on small locomotive says something especially if theres little clearance
21:16<Flygon>Reminds me of the big hill tunnel story, where the R-class came out with bricks on the boiler :p
21:17<drac_boy>and flygon about smoke .. nothing like a heavy train stopped on a curve slight uphill at red signal .. and makes a 30+ft black plume into the sky as it restarts
21:17<drac_boy>that was how much pressure some of the most modern 4-coupled locomotives could create......!!
21:18<drac_boy>very few people actually took photos like these tho
21:18<Flygon>Hahaha... I know EXACTLY what you mean
21:18<Flygon>Oil fired R-class billow INSANE amounts of smoke when restating
21:18<Flygon>I guess they push the burner to full throttle
21:21<drac_boy>flygon oh and its not easy to find photos of them because they're not captioned with this at times but .. if you're on a good grade and see a train coming toward you with apparently three sources of upward steam plumes .. its not you losing your sight .... just wait for it to start passing you and more than likely the third plume was coming from the tender after all ;)
21:21<drac_boy>want take a guessing why or shall i tell you? :P
21:22<drac_boy>tender boosters. more than often found on locomotives serving lines that were more after just getting a lot of tonnage over rather than speed
21:23<Flygon>Oooh, I see
21:23<drac_boy>at 40km/h a good part of the steam pressure isn't able to do much so...divert it to tender boosters ... clever
21:24<drac_boy>I know I saw one photo somewhere before... two medium sized 2-6-2 heading uphill with six plumes in the works :P
21:25<drac_boy>I don't know why but some tenders had the booster on first truck .. other on second truck
21:25<drac_boy>might depend on the stroker space probably
21:27<drac_boy>heres one such locomotive flygon hope you can see the small siderods ;)
21:27<Flygon>It seems like a maintainence nightmare
21:28<drac_boy>not so much actually .. just disconnect the one steam line (piped from firebox) and remove it like a normal truck ... then there its pretty much rather too easy to work on from the top :)
21:29<drac_boy>and flygon they were so much easier than trailing axle boosters which were hard to get to underneath the firebox .. and as for removing it? forget it unless you want to find big cranes :->
21:30<drac_boy>still a bit curious as to why the big locomotives never had tender booster but only trailing axle ones ... meh
21:30<Flygon>Oh, geeze
21:30<Flygon>What fun
21:30<Flygon>See, this is why Steam-Electric should have taken off
21:30<Flygon>More powerful locomotives without the maintainence problems :p
21:30<Flygon>Or... with less problems :p
21:30<drac_boy>flygon btw a few roads had the weird misconcept that a booster was to be used all the times rather than to avoid stalling on grades .. aka they were out of service too often!
21:31<drac_boy>to be honest.. a booster equipped 2-8-0 (like that one) could equal to a much bigger and likely much more costly locomotive in term of tractive
21:31<Flygon>I don't think we ever really had boosters in Victoria
21:31<Flygon>We just made more powerful locomotives, or double headed
21:32<drac_boy>so thats why some railroads were contend with booster equipped tenders as a cost measure especially if it was only needed a few times
21:32<Flygon>(probably driven by competition with New South Wales... in trying to make overall faster trains :p)
21:33<Flygon>I think New South Wales may have used boosters
21:33<Flygon>But don't quote me on that
21:34<drac_boy>heh flygon if you really wanted competition .. for some time there were PRR, B&O, and Milwaukee running between Chicago and Twin Cities ... got hot with fast locomotives then lightweight coaches then streamlined diesels ... but post-WWII this started to slowly fail ....
21:35<drac_boy>more stops were added ... speed dropped ... one by one pulled out finally leaving only scattered nameless local trains till amtrak creation
21:36<drac_boy>this was where B&O ran their Zephyr ... and Milwaukee had their Hudsons .. etc
21:36<Flygon>Here, Victorian Railways just sort of kept expanding, covered, quite literally, 95% of the population with railways by 1935
21:36<Flygon>And then slowly declined after WWII
21:36<Flygon>Barely used unprofitable brachlines were ripped up for steel
21:37<Flygon>And after WWII... some were just unprofitable :p
21:38<Flygon>The only place the same shit didn't really happen (to such a severe extent), to my recollection, is Europe (and possibly Britian... except for that shedevil Thatcher)
21:49<drac_boy>flygon the funny thing about either the Breech Axe closures or the recent (maybe not so recent anymore..I forgot how long its been now) SNCF move to shutter small trains is they both pretty much almost lost sight of another bigger issues...
21:49<Flygon>It was in the 60s, for Britian
21:49<drac_boy>4 money-questionable shunting moves = 1 big train on mainline .... guess what happens when you axe some or most of the former? you get less of the latter!
21:50<Flygon>So they ended up with one moderate sized train?
21:50<drac_boy>at least in usa it usually turned over to shortline railroads to manage the 'few wagons' while the bigger railroads sticked to long hauls many of the times
21:50<drac_boy>a better method than just shutting down lines
21:50<Flygon>Here, lines weren't so much shut down, as shut off to passeger traffic
21:50<Flygon>Then degraged slowly...
21:51<Flygon>Not helped that they're a different gauge to the rest of Australia
21:51<Flygon>Part of the calls to standardize the lines, is because doing so would result in SG Concrete sleepers... which would uplift 25-40km/h speed limits to 80km/h+
21:51<Flygon>Even if the rails are 80+ years old @______@
21:52<drac_boy>flygon when you think about it .. moving two boxcars 80km to a yard to be marshalled probably gained little profit and still costed labour+fuel .. but these same two boxcars leaving the yard in a 500km distanced train = several thousand dollars of cargo profit there
21:52<Flygon>It's not likely to happen
21:52<Flygon>Discussing rail in Australia (for closed lines) is almost like the uS
21:52<drac_boy>so its wise to never kill the short hauls unless they really don't make cargo senses ;)
21:52<Flygon>Except that the public supports rail
21:52<Flygon>The Govt is just too terrified :p
21:53<Flygon>Mmm, indeed
21:54<drac_boy>flygon mind you for the last 2+ years they have been starting to organize 'forwarding' (forgot if that was the actual word) yards especially between different railroads too in france, etc
21:55<Flygon>Define forwarding?
21:56<drac_boy>so what happens is eg a 5700 ton rated 4900 ton train comes into the yard ... drops off 400 ton of wagons heading in another direction and notes theres 700 ton that was on their route so after a quick check (especially that its <=5700 too) they marsh this onto their train then take off as soon as air test is done
21:57<Flygon>Ah, interesting
21:57<drac_boy>some of these yards have a shunter on standby, others rely on the road locomotive to do this job itself
21:57<drac_boy>probably a sensible way to get high tonnage with routing flexibility altogether at same time
21:58*Flygon nod
21:58<Flygon>Sounds it
21:59<drac_boy>flygon I guess another way to put it is .. you have a 'X' .. theres a yard right in middle ... A is northwest, B northeast, C southwest, D southeast ... a train leaves A and drops some wagons for B in yard then leaves to D ... train leaves C and notes the wagons in yard to take with it to B
21:59<drac_boy>only two trains needed even although it seem to be more than two routes :)
22:00<Flygon>Shame it's not possible in OpenTTD :P
22:00<drac_boy>thats a dumbed down way to explain it I guess ^^
22:00<drac_boy>flygon...technicially you can with that cargodist thing ... not sure if its "really" the same idea tho
22:05<drac_boy>flygon btw how compactible or incompactible are the various locomotives and emu/dmu in term of MU controls? :)
22:05<Flygon>In Victoria?
22:05<drac_boy>for australia that is
22:05<Flygon>Not sure about Australia-wide
22:05<drac_boy>well victoria works too :p
22:06<Flygon>But Victorian Railways built loco (and by extension, V/Line) are all intercompatible
22:06<Flygon>And other locos (inc steam) are retrofitted
22:06<Flygon>But EMU and DMU is tricky
22:06<Flygon>Generally, MU and loco lack full MU compatibilty (barring brakes, iirc)
22:07<Flygon>And EMU and DMU lack much compatibility, barring coupling (they need multiple crew)
22:07<drac_boy>europe has the problem (even then the Rail EU are slowly trying work on that) of local MU makers being incompactible with each others even sometimes between similar models from same company too
22:07<Flygon>And between EMU's... it's a mass again
22:07<drac_boy>funny thing is american-built units are all compactible .... doh!
22:07<drac_boy>(that including the EMD 66 too yeah)
22:07<Flygon>DMU's, Sprinters and VLocity, are designed to be 100% compatible
22:08<Flygon>Despite one being a short trip lower speed tin can, and the other reaching theoretical early Shinkansen speeds :p
22:08<drac_boy>tin can? heh
22:08<Flygon>DRC's (Diesel Railcar) only were compatible with certain other DRC's
22:08<Flygon>And PERM/DERM... not a clue
22:09<Flygon>x Electric Rail Motor
22:14<drac_boy>I'm going to bed, bye ok mr.fireman :P
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