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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-18

---Logopened Tue Dec 18 00:00:15 2012
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06:18<xdccFrien>http://www.carolinaherrera.com/212/es/areyouonthelist?share=HyjA8uQ0DhXVArDkeEKzcr-ndZR6Hu9HUYpNrsGkBXbkz4rz3EUUdzs6j6FXsjB4447F-isvxjqkXd4Qey2GHw#episodio-6
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06:22<Eddi|zuHause>who dares click on that link? :p
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06:31<drac_boy>hi
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08:49<drac_boy>btw does anyone even know how to use the UIC classification to label something like the Africa Garratt which obviously has not one but two bogies basically?
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>you have a link?
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>the UIC (german) scheme is really simple
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>a single axle is 1, two axles is 2, a single driven axle is A, two driven axles is B
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>' means the bogie is movable towards the body, and () for more complex bogies
08:58<drac_boy>hmm .. think the garratt falls under both of these at the same time? ^
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>so (A1A)(A1A) is an engine with 3 axle bogeys, whereof 2 axles are driven
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>() implies ', but sometimes it's written anyway
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>so the above could also be written (A1A)'(A1A)'
08:59<drac_boy>so I'm going on a wild guessing here but something like (1'D2)(2D'1) for a 2-8-4+4-8-2 garratt?
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: PLEASE GIVE A LINK
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know which engine you are talking about
09:00<drac_boy>one sec
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>i guess you meant (1'D2')(2'D1')
09:03<drac_boy>ugh I almost could not find any 'clean' side photos but this is close tho http://www.culture24.org.uk/asset_arena/3/34/08/180433/v0_master.jpg slight different axle arrangement but its still a garratt nevertheless
09:03<drac_boy>too many frontal or dirty photos to sort through :|
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>then you have it turned around
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>that is (2'D1')(1'D2')
09:04<drac_boy>sorry about being slow with the link...thanks a lot nevertheless
09:04<@peter1138>at the late-night
09:05<@peter1138>double-feature
09:05<@peter1138>picture show
09:05<drac_boy>heh?
09:06<@peter1138>anyone got "trains vs zombies 2"?
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>are you drunk? :)
09:07<@peter1138>no :( http://store.steampowered.com/app/222540/
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>you should be! :p
09:09<drac_boy>eddi ignore that the best photo I could find was not a real one but would http://www.blocksetter.co.uk/beyer garratt locomotive 2-6-0+0-6-2.jpg had been (1'C)(C'1) or (1'C')(C'1') ? its a 2-6-0+0-6-2 yeah
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>no, (1'C)(C1')
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>as a rule of thumb, the driven axles are usually not movable :)
09:10<drac_boy>ah I see my error
09:10<drac_boy>:)
09:10<drac_boy>think I'm starting to understand the entire UIC classification by now
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>it gets non-trivial to distinguish (1'C)(C1') from 1'C+C1' though :)
09:12<drac_boy>:)
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>the first is one locomotive whereas the second could at least theoretically function as two individual units
09:14<drac_boy>the mallets are kinda a bit interesting sometimes
09:14<drac_boy>a 0-6-6-0 can be just C'C but when its 2-6-6-0 they put it as (1'C)C ... guess thats a good way to describe the nondriving axles on a bogie
09:15<drac_boy>then of course like you mentioned... electric tractions have the same thing with A1As and whats not
09:16*drac_boy goes back to working on the table now that I know how to classify the garratts anyway
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: well, it's logical, C'C is equivalent to (C)C, and then you add an axle, so you get (1'C)C
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>but take for example this engine: http://www.zackenbahn.de/e91_3.html it can be argued whether to call that B'B'B' or B+B+B
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>(this page has the former, wikipedia the latter)
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09:31<drac_boy>huh thats a very interesting locomotive I hadn't noticed before .. have been to a bit of that site before tho
09:31<drac_boy>I would call it B'B'B' indeed since its three seperate fixed B sections
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09:32*drac_boy must look up more about this locomotive later tho
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09:57<drac_boy>does give me an idea for my list finally tho
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10:01<drac_boy>does make me wonder if theres a name for that thing where the motor axle is inbetween the drive axles
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10:42*drac_boy thinks about how much hp a small early 0-4-0T could make ... saturated water and nothing else
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10:43<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: take the heat output, multiply it by an efficiency
10:44<drac_boy>yeah yeah I'm still thinking about that one :P
10:44<drac_boy>the efficiency thing is stumbling me a little bit
10:44<drac_boy>I do know it probably has to be low tho
10:45<drac_boy>it also reminds me for some reason of the nickname in uk .. Pugs
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>steam engines rarely exceeded 10% efficiency
10:58<+michi_cc>drac_boy: http://www.schsm.org/html/estimating_hp_of_a_steam_engin.html
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11:01<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: do they have that same page in metric units? :)
11:07<drac_boy>heh
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11:11<+michi_cc>Just put in base SI units and it just works™ :) Power in W if you ignore the final HP conversion.
11:13<+michi_cc>Actually, http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=727420#p727420 is probably the better reference in this case.
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11:34<drac_boy>ok looks like steam and electric are almost done except for power specs
11:39<drac_boy>oh yeah and Eddi|zuHause thankfully it didn't take me too long to figure that out although I admit I probably should had known earlier ... if the electric/diesel is B' then its siderod driven but Bo' is individual traction motors instead as far as I've assumed
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>o means separately driven
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>there was a german 1'Do1' steam engine :)
11:40<drac_boy>four pistons?
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>no, 8
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>2 per axle
11:40<drac_boy>eight.....
11:40<drac_boy>why does that sound like the streamlined V2 locomotive to me ...
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>http://schneider-mayenfisch.com/drg_lokomotiven_19_1001.htm
11:40<drac_boy>two pistons in V arrangement over each axle
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:41<drac_boy>duh...yeah THAT
11:41<drac_boy>I actually noticed it on that "strange and wild" locomotives site
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise, 1'Do1' was the typical wheel arrangement of high speed electric engines of that time
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>basically these: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_E_16 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_E_17 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_E_18 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_E_19
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>there was also a smaller version of the E17 with 1'Co1' wheel arrangement: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_E_04
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11:52<drac_boy>took a while to figure out which category it was but here http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/steamotor/steamotor.htm near bottom
11:52<drac_boy>and apparently the french people thought about it too
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12:18*drac_boy is thinking by 1920 everything is superheated except for the few small low-cost locomotives
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12:58*drac_boy needs a break from this goddamn tracking table already!
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24825 /trunk/src/lang (dutch.txt malay.txt) (2012-12-18 18:45:15 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>dutch - 1 changes by habell
13:45<@DorpsGek>malay - 3 changes by richz
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15:01<@Terkhen>hello
15:02<Supercheese>Buenos dias
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15:08<__ln___>elvish only
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15:14<@Terkhen>buenas noches, Supercheese
15:15<Supercheese>Well, OTTD time is always daytime, unless you use that old nighttime grf :P
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15:28<Wolf01>hello :D
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15:32<drac_boy>hi
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15:34<@Terkhen>it's night here :P
15:34<frosch123>it always is
15:34<frosch123>day = work, night = ottd :p
15:34<V453000>http://gifs.gifbin.com/112012/1354558133_train_multitrack_drift_deal_with_it.gif
15:34<frosch123>esp. in winter
15:34<Supercheese>GMT -8, 12:37 PM
15:34<Supercheese>:d
15:34<Supercheese>:d*
15:35<Supercheese>oh frigging capslock
15:35<Supercheese>:D*
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>it's night when i sleep, not when it's dark outside :)
15:35<drac_boy>actually 'night' does refer to the time of the day :P
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15:35<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: good point; it's night in ottd when i sleep
15:36<frosch123>all trains sleep at night when noone plays
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: looks like stop-motion :)
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15:38<@Terkhen>that subtle difference between evening and night does not exist in spanish :P
15:40<@Terkhen>it's night when it's night, it does not matter if you are sleeping or not
15:41<drac_boy>agreed Terkhen
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16:31<oskari89>Who nobody has done a patch for drag&drop land purchasing?
16:31<frosch123>isn't there about a dozen of them?
16:31<@Terkhen>I remember at least three
16:32<@Terkhen>neither of them is adapted to the new limiting mechanic for terraform stuff
16:32<frosch123>i wonder why noone has made a patch about removing buy-land though :p
16:32<@planetmaker>:-) I think I once did... via parameter to forbid it
16:32<@Belugas>they are waiting for the undo knob
16:33<@planetmaker>^^
16:33<frosch123>well, it has it's use cases for airport construction
16:33<frosch123>but that is about the only one
16:34<oskari89>Yes, and stations upgrading in cities...
16:34<@planetmaker>nah. There you don't need it
16:34<frosch123>who needs purchase land for thaT?
16:34<frosch123>just place rails
16:34<@planetmaker>^
16:35*drac_boy simply clears things then puts station right away .. not wait
16:35<drac_boy>and which of I sometimes wish I could shoot whoever invented different meanings of 'tons' and 'tonnes' :|
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: that ignores the cases where you cannot remove enough buildings at once (town rating) or when the airport is not available yet
16:36<@planetmaker>you should shoot the person which keeps continuing to use non-metric units ;-)
16:36<frosch123>or even worse, fahrenheit :p
16:36<@planetmaker>that's non-metric in my book :P
16:36<@Belugas>or mix both at the same time!
16:37<frosch123>the only affine linear scale with a single fixpoint
16:37<@planetmaker>oh, beloved, yes ;-)
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>we should all use Kelvin!!!
16:37<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause mm I never build airports in middle of city anyway? :P
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>and m/s!!
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>SI base units only
16:37<@planetmaker>though odd units come in handy, if you depserately want to tune your result to read 42 - irrespective of how strange your units will turn out ;-)
16:37<frosch123>planetmaker: most non-metric units have _some_ sense; but fahrenheit has none
16:37<frosch123>well, or half of what any other non-metric unit has
16:38<@planetmaker>I've to agree somewhat, indeed :-)
16:38<drac_boy>looks like I may have to figure out some weight conversions for the sake of the nfo fields
16:38<Supercheese>The disadvantage of using rails to reserve land rather than buying land is rails incur maintenance costs if playing with those enabled
16:38<drac_boy>at least kw<>hp is rather easy
16:39<Rubidium>but furlong per fortnight is a much better way to define speed ;)
16:39<Supercheese>Fathoms per watch
16:40<Supercheese>Leagues per half-hour
16:40<Rubidium>also, we should get rid of light years or astronimical units
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>mornings per day! :p
16:40<@planetmaker>I once handed in an assignment where I then finally used like brithish thermal units per fathom and fortnight or so
16:40<Rubidium>or parsecs ;)
16:40<@planetmaker>but the result was 42,... ;-)
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>actually, that doesn't make sense
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>morning is an area
16:41<Supercheese>Cubits per second (not to be confused with q-bits per second)
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>cubicles!
16:42<@planetmaker>I think we're back to undo knobs now ;-)
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>one of those in-jokes that pile up over time :)
16:43<@planetmaker>:-)
16:43<@Belugas>hehe
16:44<frosch123>yeah, those which make you worry if you understand them :p
16:44<@Belugas>feels like old fouls remembering THE DAYS by the fire...
16:50<@Belugas>11 more minutes...
16:50<@Belugas>or 9, depending where i look...
16:53<@peter1138>hi
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16:57<drac_boy>hmm interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OPE1-393.jpg thats apparently supposed to be 'one 2-unit locomotive but the thing is ... one body is purely overhead electric and other body is purely diesel-electric ... talk about an unusual electro-diesel setup
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17:12<Kjetil>I guess it wouldn't be unusual in a railway system that isn't totally electrified
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>so basically they built two engines but with only one cab each?
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>i'd rather expect they have some power transmission so always all 4 bogeys are powered
17:13<frosch123>diesel / electric is completely normal
17:13<frosch123>you need the diesel to drive
17:14<frosch123>and the electricity for the time travel
17:14<Kjetil>but where would you fit the flux capactior ?
17:14<frosch123>next to the bath room
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: http://www.wuv.de/digital/jung_von_matt_und_sixt_verlosen_weltuntergangs_fluchtauto ;)
17:15<drac_boy>Kjetil well if I heard 'electro-diesel' I was expecting a single unit with part of its space for electric and other part for diesel with a limited fuel tank located below chassis?
17:16<drac_boy>:)
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>how does it matter where the tank is?
17:17<frosch123>put the ventilation of the tank next to the pantograph
17:20<drac_boy>no thanks frosch123 :p
17:20<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause just saying...the body is full with the engine + transformer sections .. so may as well as put fuel down underneath where theres probably space anyway
17:20<@peter1138>bah, i'm missing a nice set of stations that work with railtypes :S
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the engine is in the bogey...
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>that's the biggest advantage of electric engines, they're rather small...
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: newstations 0.5
17:23<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause a engine tiny enough to go inside the bogie would probably be only good for several hp .. not at least 600+hp? :)
17:23<@peter1138>and that's out?
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it actually is, as unbelievable as it sounds :)
17:23<drac_boy>peter1138 MB's download page is up ... but the main page is still "not ready"
17:23<drac_boy>so you can go see for yourself :p
17:23<@peter1138>holy shit
17:23<@peter1138>but of course, not on bananas
17:24<frosch123>at least not only on simuscape :p
17:24<frosch123>drac_boy: the interesting part on the download page is newships :)
17:27<drac_boy>yeah I wonder whats been updated there
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>the download page is somewhat "hidden"
17:28<frosch123>drac_boy: cargo support; but i meant actually that it is also one of those sets with a release date in the past
17:28<frosch123>but no actual release
17:29<drac_boy>oh I see frosch123
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17:29<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure i have seen a downlaod for that somewhere
17:29<frosch123>george leaked it
17:30<frosch123>everyone though george made an ecs update to it
17:30<drac_boy>someone remind me if Objects still can choose initial sprites depending on whats on the adjacent tiles?
17:30<frosch123>but it was actually mb who did it, gave it to george for testing, and george put it on his webspace for convienence
17:30<frosch123>and everyone else got it from there :p
17:30<frosch123>drac_boy: yes they can
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17:31<frosch123>just like houses and industries can as well
17:31<drac_boy>thanks
17:31<drac_boy>was wondering about a trackside-facing object ... with just one single entry in the construction menu
17:31<frosch123>check the dutch road funiture set
17:31<frosch123>it does such things
17:31<drac_boy>of course it'll be four different sprites in term of directions ^_^
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>also interesting that MB "backdated" his (delayed) newstations release to the date he actually intended
17:32<@planetmaker>drac_boy, you can check for road or track. But not how the road or track looks like
17:32<drac_boy>mmm I still have to look up that set, one day I'll get to that I guess
17:32<@planetmaker>and... look at that set for details ;-)
17:32<drac_boy>planetmaker thats ok...straight or diagonal tracks whatever .. as long as its still "trackside" technically
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: so what happens when it's inbetween tracks, or the tracks get removed/rebuilt?
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>it's one of the most annoying thing about the UK houses
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>they change appearance when building/removing road
17:37<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: That isn't that annoying :P
17:37<drac_boy>hmm inbetween tracks..it'll show two faces if it was meant to ... as for removed I'll have to think about that one
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: annoying enough that i immediately stopped using the set because of that
17:38<FLHerne>It's more annoying IMO when they don't, because they then face in a silly direction :P
17:38<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Overreaction much?
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17:38<Eddi|zuHause>not at all...
17:39<@planetmaker>FLHerne, I consider that highly annoying :-)
17:39<FLHerne>Why?
17:39<@planetmaker>A house doesn't just change when you re-build roads or tracks
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17:39<@planetmaker>It's like a train changing colour while driving or so
17:39<FLHerne>Just argue that the road moving required them to rebuild the house :P
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: the worst thing: a house suddenly faces a depot when it faced the street before
17:40<@planetmaker> FLHerne it's more so annoying as there are means to make it work properly
17:40<@planetmaker>might be a bit of a hack, but ... works ;-)
17:41<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause one reason I could see houses changing sprite would be to have the driveway (or whatever other terms its called as) disappear when its front is not facing a road anymore?
17:41<drac_boy>otherwise yeah I can't think of any good uses
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: but these houses turn around 90°
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17:45<drac_boy>only mobile trailer homes should be doing that? :)
17:45<drac_boy>heh
17:56<@Terkhen>good night
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>exactly...
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17:57<drac_boy>I know its only a rough guessing but think that two first class seats could roughly translate into three or four second class seat? (for the sake of deciding number of seats in a grf coach wagon)
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18:05<FLHerne>I bumped several patches 500 revisions and then combined them, and my game hasn't crashed yet! :D
18:05*FLHerne suspects it will shortly...
18:05<drac_boy>heh
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18:07<Wolf01>'night all
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18:28<FLHerne>Ah, now it crashed :-)
18:28<FLHerne>'night
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19:37<drac_boy>hmm any of you know of any 1000/1500VDC electrification aside to the few in switzerland?
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>netherlands
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>various commuter systems throughout the world
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19:58<drac_boy>thanks, hadn't quite realized about netherlands
19:59<drac_boy>then again I liked some of their earlier emu sets tho
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20:14<JamesGo>drac_boy: I think the Woodhead Line in the UK used 1500VDC with overhead cables
20:41<drac_boy>thanks, found some specs to look at which was one of the thing I was curious about
20:52<drac_boy>on a non-project note..I'm curious about that French Narrow Gauge grf project on the forum .. cute little locomotives and wagons there :)
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20:59<drac_boy>what does anyone else think of the little list given in first post? :p http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=58283
20:59<drac_boy>funny thing tho is #20 it wasn't too hard to see that theres a boxy locomotive but #21 I almost went "where's the locomotive?" because all 3 cars looked same :->
21:42<@DorpsGek>Commit by glx :: r24826 trunk/projects/determineversion.vbs (2012-12-19 02:42:25 UTC)
21:42<@DorpsGek>-Fix: determineversion.vbs could hang in a git checkout
22:02<drac_boy>when they say Ladegewicht .. do they mean weight of cargo alone .. not cargo+wagon .. right?
22:20<drac_boy>meh I'm stopping for now, too much typings as usual ;|
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23:31<Supercheese> Sweetness, new versions of UKRS and the addon set are forthcoming shortly
23:31<Pikka>are they?
23:31<Supercheese>sorry, eliminate shortly
23:31<Supercheese>simply forthcoming
23:33<Pikka>good news, it won't work in the stable :)
23:34<Pikka>who is in charge of the openttd website these days, Rubidium? I managed to lose my password.
23:35<Supercheese>TrueBrain methinks
23:36<Supercheese>Min version ~r24246, for current_max_speed?
23:36<Pikka>yes
23:37<Pikka>which doesn't in fact completely work anyway, doesn't work for bridge speeds :)
23:37<Supercheese>Hmm, interesting
23:38<Supercheese>Most of the time I just build bridges with speed limits far higher than the engines' anyway
23:38<Pikka>I suppose I really ought to make it work with the stable
23:39<Pikka>it would be easy to just make it use the old var for old versions, I shouldn't be so lazy :)
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---Logclosed Wed Dec 19 00:00:16 2012