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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-19

---Logopened Wed Dec 19 00:00:16 2012
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01:58<Flygon> This NEEDS to be an OpenTTD function @_@
01:58<Flygon>Or... a graphics set :p
01:59<Supercheese>Well, I already did subways "under" roads
01:59<Supercheese>just code trains as road vehicles
01:59<Supercheese>trams, rather
02:00<Flygon>What I meant is, full sized trains in the middle of the street
02:00<Supercheese>Code full size trains as trams, then, eh
02:00<Flygon>But I realized that could be done via some sort of 3 tile wide road-rail-road tomfoolery...
02:00<Flygon>Making it pretty and seamless, though? @_@
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04:32<Pikka>is autorefit amazingly broken?
04:33<Pikka>saving and loading the game seems to fix it
04:33<Pikka>and now closing the depot window seems to fix it... but it didn't before, or something
04:34<Pikka>or just the train window
04:34<Pikka>who knows
04:38<V453000>that sounds very random :D
04:40<Pikka>well, it doesn't update whether a train can autorefit until you close the train window
04:41<V453000>try to resize the train window
04:41<Pikka>so by moving vehicles around you can easily end up with two identical trains, one of which will autorefit and the other won't
04:41<V453000>I havent coded autorefit so I dont know how exactly it works :)
04:43<Pikka>anyway, crisis averted. :)
04:44<V453000>so far most of the wtf I have caused was due to my own stupidity
04:44<V453000>like not copying the code in right places and forgetting things
04:45<@planetmaker>A Pikka! Hello :-)
04:45<Pikka>hello planetmaker
04:45<@planetmaker>Pikka, autorefit doesn't magically change mid-game ;-) Afaik it's only feasible via developer options
04:46<Pikka>what I mean, planetmaker, is
04:46<Pikka>if you build a single loco and give it an order to a station, the autorefit button is greyed out, because the single loco cannot autorefit
04:46<Pikka>if you then give it some wagons, the autorefit button does not become ungreyed out
04:47<Pikka>until you close and reopen the train window
04:47<@planetmaker>that sounds like a bug
04:47<@planetmaker>some re-draw command for that or those windows missing
04:48<@planetmaker>could you just post that as a bug please with that description? I'm still at work and likely would forget :-)
04:48<Pikka>I could, but I can't remember my openttd password
04:48<Pikka>or the password for the associated email address :)
04:49<Pikka>that's the main reason I'm in here. ;)
04:49<Pikka>I had another bug to post too :) and hopefully soon some grfs.
04:49<@planetmaker>I don't have the database passwords with me right now either
04:51<V453000>lol I just wanted to ask something and realized halfway through writing the long question
04:53<@planetmaker>, maybe I do...
04:56<@planetmaker>gah... as expected the user database freezes firefox :S
05:00<V453000>I want the last vehicle in consist to be reversed... I know how to do that through alternate spriteset, but is there any more sophisticated way? I guess there isnt right?
05:01<@planetmaker>the articulated callback has a special value to be added to add the vehicle reversed
05:01<@planetmaker>0x4000 or so
05:01<V453000>does that apply for not articulated vehicles too?
05:01<@planetmaker>and dual-headed does that with the trailing part, too
05:02<@planetmaker>V453000, I bet the articulated callback applies *only* to articulated vehicles ;-)
05:02<V453000>well yeah that is why I ask
05:02<@planetmaker>each part is a vehicle, mind
05:02<V453000>because I want to flip only not articulated vehicles like that
05:02<V453000>ah I said it wrongly, last vehicle in consist of whole train
05:03<V453000>-> every engine which is at the end of the train is reversed
05:03<V453000>but, that thing could be changed by player by flipping the train in depot
05:03<Pikka>V453000, you can set a flag to allow the user to flip the vehicle
05:03<V453000>I do that Pikka dont worry :) I just want an extra step by making it automatic
05:03<Pikka>but if you want to make sure every one is flipped, then a second spriteset would be the easiest way
05:03<V453000>yeah I think so, too
05:04<V453000>I can just make a custom reversed template from the same image I guess
05:04<V453000>alright thanks :)
05:04<Pikka>just swap sprites 0-3 and sprites 4-7 :)
05:05<V453000>the flipping is great but I am running into one issue there ... I have an articulated vehicle among my trains - so if you autoreplace to that vehicle and then back to normal vehicles, you lose your flip settings
05:05<V453000>because articulated trains cant flip
05:05<Pikka>I think user flipping is generally a bad idea
05:05<V453000>also 90% people use it that way so having it default doesnt hurt :)
05:06<V453000>why is it a bad idea? :d
05:06<V453000>it is just visual
05:06<Pikka>yes, but it's unnecessary
05:06<Pikka>if the vehicle looks "right" flipped, do it in the code
05:06<V453000>well you could also say only one train is necessary for whole train set, rest isnt :P
05:07<V453000>ah that you mean ... well that depends
05:07<V453000>you can also add vehicles inside of the train and want one of them to be reversed
05:07<@planetmaker>yes... user flipping is not exactly necessary
05:07<@planetmaker>legacy, oh nice legacy
05:07<V453000>it isnt, but it is nice
05:07<Pikka>but it isn't legacy, planetmaker
05:07<@planetmaker>and how big the outcry was when enabling it always unconditionally was removed
05:08<@planetmaker>it is :-) now you just need to enable it. kinda :D
05:08<Pikka>I already disabled it for everything
05:08<Pikka>by setting the articulated flag
05:08<Pikka>and now I'm removing that because AI authors complained
05:08<@planetmaker>hehe. That's evil, though
05:08<V453000>I dont support AIs at all
05:08<@planetmaker>what exactly was their issue? I read but forgot
05:09<Pikka>they wanted to avoid articulated wagons because they couldn't tell how long they'd be or something
05:09<@planetmaker>they don't know with non-articulated either
05:09<@planetmaker>thus the reasoning is not valid
05:09<Pikka>but it can't be longer than 8/8
05:10<Pikka>so they can assume that everything's 8/8, and the worst thing that can happen is their train is a bit short
05:10<V453000>the AI cannot do something like "buy wagons until length reaches over X" ?
05:10<V453000>"then remove one" ?
05:10<Pikka>I'd have thought so
05:10<Pikka>but who knows
05:10<V453000>pretty much :)
05:14<@planetmaker>well. yes. But... that's not a reason to not use articulated vehicles. Rather it might miss some AI callbacks, I guess
05:14<@planetmaker>So if an AI cannot do what you just said, it should get the possibility to do so
05:14<V453000>I think all of my vehicles appear as passenger for AIs since I just copied the vehicles and adjusted them
05:15<@planetmaker>V453000, there's one flag which says "use this engine for passengers only". Unless that is set, the AI will use what they see fit. And they can ignore that flag, too
05:15<V453000>yeah, I didnt really care about those things ... at least yet but I doubt I will
05:16<Pikka>I didn't think any AI used that flag any more, planetmaker
05:16<Pikka>it was a flag for the original TTD AI
05:16<@planetmaker>Pikka, not sure. It's there so that AIs can play according to what a train is supposed to be used for
05:17<@planetmaker>but I might be wrong :-)
05:17<Pikka>one would hope that someone writing an AI would get it to look at stats and stuff rather than just that one binary switch which may or may not be set correctly :)
05:18<Pikka>has anyone written a decent train AI yet, anyway?
05:18<Pikka>last time I looked most AIs just spammed the map with a million roadvehicles
05:18<V453000>yes that is pretty much what an AI is for I think
05:19<@planetmaker>ah, there's one, two or three which work somewhat. But... development there seems mostly dormant :-(
05:19<V453000>I mean, it cant talk anyway, playing with people is just so much more fun
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05:19<@planetmaker>and I'd not give them an "excellent" there
05:19<V453000>even if you have separate companies in separate areas, still the talking is nice
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05:27<@planetmaker>tsk. tsk. irc at work... ^ ;-)
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05:28<V453000>sure irc is just that much better :) but talking about the game in the game and exchanging experience there is kind of better than AIs in my mind :P
05:30<@Terkhen>good morning
05:32<V453000>hai Terkhen
05:34<@planetmaker>salut Terkhen
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07:59<drac_boy>just a bit of random photo posting again -
07:59<drac_boy>looks like a "cheap fast" locomotive .. nothing but just basic flat panels etc
08:00<drac_boy>not too surprisingly the english wiki mentioned wartime locomotives
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08:10<@peter1138>what's the easiest way of implementing ssl? :S
08:11<@peter1138>need to replace code that uses a custom socket handler and sends an http request, as it needs to be https now :S
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08:13<@peter1138>tempted to just sent the request off to an external program like curl
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08:15<Flygon>drac_boy: It looks like it's towing W-class trams in ugly livery
08:16<drac_boy>flygon heh :) btw how're you?
08:16<Flygon>In fact, those ARE trams
08:16<Flygon>I'm well
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08:18<Pikka>hello peter1138 and suchlike
08:18<drac_boy>flygon btw during the interurban "fall" post-WWII .. sometimes you would find an interurban coach body fixed up a little bit aside to getting new trucks and being used in local passenger trains instead. the different comestic effects including roofline sometimes made them stand out in the midst of standard heavyweight coaches tho
08:19<drac_boy>the railroad in question got cheap 'new' coaches tho so it works out for them :)
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08:19<Pikka>planetmaker: did you have that database access, or do I need to bug someone else? :)
08:20<Flygon>That would explain some W-class trams wagging around on 1500vDC 1600mm tracks in Melbourne, drac_boy :)
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08:26<@planetmaker>Pikka, your username is like your IRC name?
08:26<Flygon>I'd wager a guess they just whacked a spare Tait motor onto the tram and called it a day
08:26<Pikka>yes it is
08:26<Pikka>I think
08:27<@planetmaker>I can only search for what I know ;-)
08:28<Pikka>you can search for anything, I'd have thought
08:29<@planetmaker>well, yes. but if I search for the wrong name, I won't find your entry :-)
08:29<Pikka>well, it should be like my IRC name
08:30<@planetmaker>k, let's search... it's terribly slow somehow...
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08:30<@planetmaker>but maybe I'm just missing the way to efficiently find one user ;-)
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08:34<@planetmaker>... and the website still loads ... with all user date ;-)
08:37<V453000>how many users are there?
08:37<drac_boy>V453000 too many to count I'm sure
08:37<drac_boy>just look at the member list ;)
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08:39<@planetmaker>no clue really
08:44<V453000>one hell of a lot sounds like a precise enough number to me
08:48<Pikka>more than 7
08:50<@planetmaker>ha, see. It's pikka. Not Pikka
08:50<Pikka>that's a surprise
08:50<@planetmaker>hm... strange
08:51<@planetmaker>depends on where it's written. But in the list I could search easiest it's small. why ever
08:52<Pikka>I blame Rubidium
08:52<@planetmaker>interesting e-mail address ;-) So. What should I do with your entry?
08:53<Pikka> ?
08:53<@planetmaker>but did you try to login with all small letters?
08:54<@planetmaker>Login: pikka, Name: Pikka ;-)
08:54<Pikka>yes, but I have no idea what the password is :) I tried a few possibilities
08:54<@planetmaker>a lengthy one is all I see
08:54<Pikka>can you change the email address or something?
08:54<@planetmaker>I guess
08:54<Pikka>biggyfee at gmail dot etc
08:55<@planetmaker>hm, does that help you to reset your PW?
08:56<V453000>you have awesome addresses Pikka :D
08:56<Pikka>I have got the pw recovery email, thanks :)
08:56<@planetmaker>great :-)
08:57<Pikka>and we're in, time to post a million bugs :D
08:57<@planetmaker>:-) Looking forward
08:57<Pikka>two, anyway
08:57<V453000>that is close to a million
08:58<@planetmaker>and it's the only truely odd prime
08:59<@planetmaker>anyway, how's life in the post-bus-driving time? :-)
09:00<V453000>Pikka: that was just dumb filtering tbh
09:00<V453000>not trying "all cargoes" before writing a bug is ... )
09:01<Pikka>life is not bad in the post-bus-driving time
09:01<Pikka>not making as much money as I'd like, but then not doing as much work as I should :)
09:02<V453000>aaaaand my automatic train reversing feature is alive :>
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09:17<Pikka>first bug up
09:17<Pikka>I have to write a newgrf for the second one so it will take a minute ;)
09:18<@peter1138>there are no bugs, only... features...
09:24<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:24<@peter1138>hi sir
09:26<@Belugas>hi hi boys :)
09:27<Markk>Hi girls.
09:27*planetmaker decides to leave early today... still gotta get Christmas presents :D See you around later
09:27<@Belugas>i'm feeling a ittle blue :( I was sure we were thursday, not wednesday
09:27<@Belugas>bye planetmaker
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09:37<@Belugas>haa... my holidays are accepted! cool! Boosting my mood
09:38<@Belugas>Let the music be live!
09:39<@peter1138>let the music be... ninjamed?
09:39<Pikka>in attempting to create a demonstration grf for a very minor bug
09:39<Pikka>I have crashed openttd :)
09:40<@planetmaker>hm :-)
09:40<@Belugas>yes sir Nelson, yes indeed, big time!
09:41<@planetmaker>(and briefly back, grabbing some stuff from home ;-) )
09:41<@Belugas>Pikka, very bad boy
09:41<Pikka>Assertion failed at line 376 of ..\src\train_cmd.cpp: max_speed == this -> GetCurveSpeedLimit ()
09:42<Pikka>when I attempt to build my test train :)
09:42<V453000>hmmm, is there any way to have a string in purchase_speed: string(stuff); ?
09:42<@planetmaker>Pikka: it's a new game with that grf?
09:42<@planetmaker>then you're very very naughty
09:42<@planetmaker>As usual :-P
09:42<V453000>it compiled but it seems to say 53kmh regadless of the string
09:43<Pikka>I'd guess the answer is no then, V453000
09:43<V453000>hm :)
09:44<V453000>OK, poll: :D what value to give a train which changes max speed? :D
09:44<@peter1138>its max max at the time of purchase
09:45<V453000>well it changes based on amount of vehicles in consist
09:45<Pikka>so the real question is
09:45<Pikka>why does the test grf crash, and ukrs doesn't? :)
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09:46<Pikka>the speed of what you'll get when you buy it, V453000
09:46<Pikka>you can put an explanatory note in the additional buy menu text if you need to
09:46<V453000>hm I will think about it :) string would be nice though :(((
09:47<V453000>ofc there will be a note
09:47<V453000>I already have a shitload of additional text
09:47<V453000>more cant hurt
09:47<Pikka>a novel in every trainset
09:48<V453000>the more provided info the better I think
09:48<V453000>loading speeds, capacities, attachment options, tilt
09:48<V453000>+ train class in my case
09:48<V453000>oh and a few wannabe funny quotes
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09:53<@peter1138>when you've got a lot of trains available, that text helps a lot
09:56<@peter1138>hmm, waypoint previews show the wrong railtype
09:57<@peter1138>who's responsible for that...
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09:59<@peter1138>gah, need paxdest :S
10:04<@Belugas>ain't my fault, i'm (almost) pretty sure!
10:07<drac_boy>btw is there only one single road crossing sprite or is it perhaps plausible to have one for eg <1930 and another for 1930> constructions?
10:09<@peter1138>railtypes can do that i think
10:10<Pikka>you can have multiple crossing types, however the vars available to you are very limited
10:11<Pikka>and date of construction is not one of them
10:11<drac_boy>ah, had to ask
10:11<Pikka>current date, rail type, town zone, that's about it.
10:11<@peter1138>is it not? hmm
10:11<drac_boy>guess you have to pick something generic enough that looks good in 1900 and 2000 at same time. a bit complicated I guess :)
10:11<@peter1138>oh welll
10:11<drac_boy>current date? that probably still works
10:12<@peter1138>feature request :p
10:12<drac_boy>it only takes a few day to convert a real road crossing so having all your road crossing change graphics on a particular date in game sounds fair
10:12<Pikka>peter1138: /someone/ thought that saving things like construction date for every rail tile on the map would cause performance issues ;)
10:12<@peter1138>no, there's just no space
10:13<Pikka>there you go :)
10:13<@peter1138>probably isn't for level crossing tiles either
10:13<drac_boy>pikka I wasn't thinking of 'date of construction' .. just that the tool will build one sprite before a particular date and another one after a date
10:13<Pikka>drac_boy: I use a combination of town zone and current date
10:13<Pikka>so crossings in the centre of town will get upgraded before ones out in the sticks somewhere
10:14<Pikka>town zone, current date, and a bit of psuedo-randomness by tile coordinate
10:15<drac_boy>I'll have to look this up when I get to working out rail details, thanks
10:15<drac_boy>pikka so by town zone I'm going to guess that it'll show one particular road crossing if its within any five town zones but a different one if theres no town zone detected?
10:16<Pikka>you can check individual town zones
10:16<@planetmaker>iirc one of the main points was to not have an action2 sequence for every rail tile
10:16<Pikka>yes, planetmaker
10:16<@planetmaker>or at least no lengthy callbacks
10:17<Pikka>down with 2048* maps!
10:17<drac_boy>well I'll have to look this up when I get to rails then. would be nice to have different road crossing in different sections
10:20<drac_boy>about town zones...
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10:21<drac_boy>I'm a little confused I think...why does zone 2 not run all the way down to the bottom of the table?
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10:22<drac_boy>this talk about road crossing and town zones reminded me of that particular wikipage again :|
10:26<@planetmaker>drac_boy: think of it as the type of houses found typically in small towns. But not villages or metropolises
10:27<@planetmaker>opposite with TZ1 and 3: they're only found in big towns
10:28<drac_boy>oh hm so could build fair-sized houses that look ok in something bigger than villages but out of place next to the big buildings of a city. right?
10:28<@planetmaker>yeah, kinda
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10:30<Pikka>well there's some fun for someone :)
10:32<@planetmaker>Pikka: you have also a crash.dmp, right? could you add that please?
10:32<Pikka>I could
10:33<Pikka>and I did
10:34<@planetmaker>it contains the info of how the game got there
10:34<+glx>does that mean I must get the trace for you ?
10:34<@planetmaker>:-) it could mean that ;-)
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10:43<+glx>indeed it's during var4C :)
10:46<+glx>cache mismatch it seems
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11:02<drac_boy>great got to go for lunch -_-
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11:03<Pikka>and I should probably get to bed
11:03<Pikka>gotta go and shift some garden beds or something for my mother in the morning
11:09<Pikka>goodnight gentlemen
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13:34<FLHerne>LordAro: Hoy
13:34<FLHerne>Drat, missed Pikka :P
13:34*FLHerne is good at missing people
13:35<FLHerne>Do people think keeping code and /tmp in a tmpfs would speed up compiling?
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13:37<LordAro>FLHerne: not siginificantly, i'd have thought
13:37<FLHerne>Well, my lump doesn't seem to be CPU- or RAM-limited at present
13:37<LordAro>probably hard drive
13:38<FLHerne>LordAro: Exactly. That's why loading everything into RAM beforehand might speed things up :D
13:38<LordAro>ah, in that case, maybe :)
13:38<LordAro>probably easier to upgrade to an ssd though
13:39*FLHerne is conducting patch-merging by trial-and-error as usual :-)
13:39<FLHerne>LordAro: spensiv :P
13:39*LordAro does it that way too :)
13:39<LordAro>wait for january sales :)
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24827 /trunk/src/lang (lithuanian.txt turkish.txt) (2012-12-19 18:45:14 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 25 changes by mtxd
13:45<@DorpsGek>turkish - 48 changes by niw3
13:49<LordAro>ooh, a lmde upgrade
13:51<frosch123>a what?
13:53<LordAro>an update pack
13:53<LordAro>for LMDE
13:54<@Alberth>I hope your distribution does not roll away :p
13:54<frosch123> <- hmm, did the original mapgen always generated maps like that? :s
13:55<@Alberth>so blocky? yes it did afaik
13:55<frosch123>i mean the map split in the middle :p
13:56<frosch123>both vertical and horzontal splits seem to be possible
13:56<@Alberth>oh, that I have never seen before
13:56<frosch123>also happens in 0.7 at least :p
13:59<@Alberth>it's unlikely I ever used the original map generator in OpenTTD :)
13:59<frosch123>seems to be a property of desert climate
13:59<frosch123>also happens in 0.6
14:00<frosch123>same in arctic
14:00<@Alberth>in the original mapsize?
14:01<frosch123>the screenshot is 1kx1k
14:01<frosch123>it is less noticeable on 256x256
14:01<frosch123>so, maybe it has always been like that
14:01<frosch123>and it is just the idea of the mapgen to make half mountains, half flats
14:02<FLHerne>Mmm. Does anyone know what would cause the Advanced Settings to crash, before I spend ages staring at the code? :P
14:03<@Alberth>or their initial block-size is very large (assuming they do rectangular up/down operations on the map)
14:03<frosch123>same in 0.3.5 :)
14:03<frosch123>and 0.3.5 does not seem to have bigger maps :p
14:03<frosch123>even the minimap is not zoomable
14:03<FLHerne>I seem to have managed it twice independently, so must be something easy to break :-)
14:03<@Alberth>FLHerne: look at the stack trace instead?
14:04<frosch123>yay, looking at the configure patches window of 0.3.5 is awesome :p
14:04<FLHerne>Alberth: I can see about where it breaks - it crashes while getting a setting description
14:04<FLHerne>Returns a null pointer and asserts, so presumably I messed it up :P
14:05<@Alberth>frosch123: we should organize a "play 0.3.5" tournament or so :p
14:05<frosch123>what's the goal?
14:05<frosch123>who manages to remote crash it first? :p
14:08<frosch123>ok, code shows that it is obviously intentional :)
14:08<frosch123>i probably never played a bigger map with orig mapgen in tropic or arctic :)
14:09<LordAro>"<Alberth> I hope your distribution does not roll away :p" <-- i intend to change it sometime over the holidays, so it shouldn't matter too much :L
14:11<LordAro>my new desktop background:
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14:15<frosch123> <- my desktop background for several years
14:17<LordAro>rather boring :P
14:18<frosch123>it has a nice gradient with external light sources
14:19<@Alberth>LordAro: open a few more windows :p
14:21<LordAro>it doesn't matter that i only see it when turning the computer on/off :P
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14:31<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24828 trunk/src/spritecache.cpp (2012-12-19 19:31:18 UTC)
14:31<@DorpsGek>-Change: For dedicated servers without blitter ignore the spritecache size setting and always use the minimum.
14:32<frosch123>hi Wolf01 :) caught some juicy sheeps?
14:32<Wolf01>no, only fog
14:34<Wolf01>I'm trying to get my coworkers to use a bugtracker to handle bugs and feature requests... "too much work" they said :(
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14:35<frosch123>if used incorrectly they indeed only cause more work :)
14:35<frosch123>but also if used correctly, they cause more work due to less stuff being forgotten :p
14:36<Wolf01>now they just use: email + google docs + paper to write down things, then they forget where they signed what has been done and what not, look for the original email, check the code, write down a new paper and then update the google document :)
14:38<Wolf01>I'm using flyspray since March and I have everything under control
14:40<Wolf01>maybe they want trac?
14:41<frosch123>isn't trac the thing which need killing every 12 hours to reclaim leaked memory?
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14:45<LordAro>the upgrade shut down my chrome window :(
14:46<frosch123>try copper?
14:47*LordAro is slow
14:47<@planetmaker>then use gold. It's a better conductor and thus faster ;-)
14:48<LordAro>or platinum
14:48<@planetmaker>or mercury ;-)
14:48<LordAro>mercury's a good conductor?
14:49<@planetmaker>no idea :-)
14:49<@planetmaker>but it's a metal
14:49<LordAro>that be true
14:49<@Alberth>evenink pm
14:49<frosch123>it's pretty bad :)
14:50<frosch123>silver > copper > gold > a
14:50<@planetmaker>only silver is better than copper
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14:50<@planetmaker>hi Alberth :-)
14:50<frosch123>... > iron > chrome > plum > mercury > silicon
14:51<LordAro>i'm fairly sure i was taught that platinum was the best
14:51<frosch123>(ok, silicon is unfair in that list :)
14:51<LordAro>good that it is, actually :)
14:51<frosch123>platinum is not in the list i am looking at
14:52<LordAro>or i would not (easily) be able to talk to you :)
14:52<LordAro>... if, of course, you consider that to be a good thing :L
14:53<frosch123>platinum is between iron and chrome
14:54<frosch123>so, not good at all
14:54<LordAro>how odd
14:54<LordAro>school lied to me! D:
14:54<Prof_Frink>Mercury should be faster than silver.
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14:54<@planetmaker>frosch123: sure?
14:55*LordAro would check himself, but can't because pgrades
14:55<frosch123>wiki says 9.43 * 10**6 S/m for platinum
14:55<frosch123>silver has 61, copper 58, iron 10, chrom 8.7
14:55<frosch123>gold 44
14:58<frosch123>ah, wiki explcitly says silver is the best metal
14:58<frosch123>though i am not sure whether it considers alloys
14:58<frosch123>or whether they are generally worse
14:59<Rubidium>then why would one get gold coated cables?
14:59<Rubidium>just use the much cheaper silver ones ;)
14:59<frosch123>that is about oxidation
14:59<frosch123>not about conductivity
15:00<LordAro>indeed - i thought copper is roughly as expensive as gold, and silver is cheaper than that
15:00<frosch123>put silver at air and it will quickly look less shiny :)
15:00<LordAro>that also be true
15:00<+glx>but once it's plugged oxydation shouldn't matter
15:00<@planetmaker>hm, yes. Wiki gives that order. silver has lowest specific resistivity
15:00<@planetmaker>glx: it does. On contacts it always does
15:00<@planetmaker>or the contact will corrode or degenerate
15:01<+glx>even on fix contact ?
15:01<@planetmaker>well. could. ever put a "bad" metal, say, into a metal sink by accident?
15:01<@planetmaker>and left it there for a bit
15:01<Rubidium>LordAro: it's only a factor ~50 (40k vs 755)
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15:01<Rubidium>in EUR per kg
15:02<LordAro>not much then ;)
15:02<Rubidium>but if you want to prevent oxidation and other stuff on your connectors, you should use teflon ;)
15:02<+glx>but using gold coated cable in non gold plug is useless
15:03<LordAro>buy Monster HDMI Cables!
15:04<+glx>better use cable with a proper shield
15:04<+glx>more efficient
15:05<LordAro>how can you tell if a cable as one?
15:05<Wolf01>cut it and see
15:06<LordAro>non-destructively ;P
15:06<+glx>weight, brand and price I'd say :)
15:07<Rubidium>wind some copper around the wire, add a current on that copper and see whether there's electricity flowing in the cable?
15:07<frosch123>Rubidium: yeah, teflon cables :) even if they break, you won't notice a difference :p
15:08<@planetmaker>nah. all boring
15:08<@planetmaker>wifi cables
15:08<@planetmaker>that's the future
15:09<LordAro>not bloody likely
15:09<LordAro>especially not in my house
15:09<+glx>yeah cordless cables :)
15:09<Rubidium>LordAro: you could ultrasound the cable
15:09<LordAro>its a struggle to get a wireless internet signal, let a lone powering the device as well
15:09<+glx>can be destructive
15:10<LordAro>and ultrasound would be easily interrupted, probably
15:10<frosch123>hmm... now that pm mentions it...
15:10<frosch123>buying wireless boxes did not cross my mind, but they might fit my room
15:11<Rubidium>LordAro: depending on where the signal returns (or not) you can determine whether there's a mantle/shielding or not
15:11<frosch123>planetmaker: any recommendations?
15:11<Rubidium>the problem with most wireless stuff is that they aren't really wireless... stupid power cables
15:11<LordAro>Rubidium: oh, wait, you were still talking about cable shielding :L
15:12<frosch123>Rubidium: i would definitely only buy stuff with powercables
15:12<frosch123>i hate batteries
15:12<frosch123>they are always empty when i need them
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15:12<Rubidium>so you could use IEEE 1901
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15:14<Rubidium>Prof_Frink: that'd be fun ;)
15:14<LordAro>bit slow
15:14<Rubidium>LordAro: 500 Mbps is fast enough for most purposes
15:14<LordAro>Megabirds per second?
15:16<LordAro>how odd
15:17<LordAro>op, update's done
15:17*LordAro restarts computer to check it all still works
15:17<LordAro>you'll be able to guess if it isn't :L
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15:20<LordAro>ah. excellent. still boots. :)
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15:23<frosch123>LordAro: have you checked that you did not accidentially boot into an alternativ universum?
15:23<LordAro>i suspect not :)
15:41<frosch123> <- hmm, dalek shaped speakers
15:43<@peter1138>not exactly
15:44<drac_boy>is it just I'm not looking at an average sample or are trolley trailers always a bit smaller than the trolley themself? (eg seats 56 on trolley but only 44 on the trailer)
15:44<+glx>clearly not a dalek
15:44<frosch123>ok, it has no knobs
15:45<+glx>and too many curves
15:45<frosch123>anyway, technical specs do not match the price
15:45<Rubidium>frosch123: seems to be Apple-price-ish
15:46<frosch123>though i believe they can be used in rain
15:55<LordAro>why would you want that?
15:56<frosch123>the rain god invocation?
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16:01<LordAro>oh, of course, sillly me :)
16:02<LordAro>decoding file formats is fun :)
16:03<frosch123>so, is the any hifi nerd in this channel?
16:03<LordAro>try #tycoon :P
16:04<frosch123>are speakers with a frequency range 30hz to 11k total crap? or is that normal?
16:04<frosch123>11k sounds really low
16:04<drac_boy>I wonder about this kind of colour job :-s
16:04<frosch123>others have 20hz to 20k
16:04<@Alberth>20k sounds about right
16:04<drac_boy>(if anyone's wondering about the chassis on the other hand, its a 1'B1' ...bit unusual but mm OBB had a number of these tho
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16:05<y2000rtc>hi all, have a nice evening
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16:06<frosch123>yeah, most speakers seem to go to 20khz
16:07<frosch123>though they only start around 80hz
16:07<frosch123>though they are all 2-way
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16:09<LordAro>i believe your ears hear from around 20Hz - 20kHz (well, used to :P )
16:10<LordAro>so the closer your speakers are to that, the better
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16:19<drac_boy>hmmm have any one heard of kgf before? I assume thats short for 'kilogram force'?
16:20<frosch123>yes, it's called "pond" in german :)
16:20<frosch123>was used before 1978
16:21<drac_boy>thanks, wanted to be sure. trying convert this japanese table into kN/etc that the game would had understood :->
16:22<frosch123>1kp = 9.81 N
16:22<frosch123>(average earth)
16:22<drac_boy>for a moment I was going to ask you frosch123 because for some reason web thinks 5kgf is below 0.1kN
16:23<drac_boy>thanks :s
16:23<frosch123>well, 5kgf is way below 0.1 kN :)
16:23<frosch123>@calc 5*9.81
16:23<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 49.05
16:23<LordAro>drac_boy: what did you try? if wolfram alpha gets it wrong, i think it's a first :)
16:24<frosch123>49.05 < 100
16:24<drac_boy>oh hm wait frosch123 apparently the clipboard must had thought it was a dot not a comma
16:24*drac_boy sighs at stupid computers
16:24<valhallasw>frosch123: I don't think there's anyone who uses something else than g = 10 to go from kgf to N and vice versa ;-)
16:24<drac_boy>its 5,175kgf .... lets see... thats 50.7kN then
16:25<Zuu>The seamless mode of virtual box is quite cool. Having windows from Linux mix with windows from Windows.
16:25<frosch123>valhallasw: i always use 9.81 (not 9.80665)
16:26<frosch123>though argueably ottd uses 10 :)
16:26<drac_boy>I guess for 656kW under dc wires .. 50.7kN isn't too bad
16:26<valhallasw>frosch123: ;-)
16:26<Sturmi>speaking of virtual box, is there a way to load Machines from VMware Workstation into virtual box?
16:27<valhallasw>that's the type of thing where I see kgf's, and they always use a factor 10, because, well, it doesn't matter if it's 10% off :-)
16:27<Zuu>It has support for 3-4 different file types for disk files.
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>valhallasw: that's totally within the margin of error for these things
16:27<drac_boy>valhallasw heh
16:27<Zuu>If it support VMWare files I don't know.
16:28<frosch123>Sturmi: afaik virtualbox can read the disk images of vmware
16:28<drac_boy>@calc 5,175*9.81
16:28<@DorpsGek>drac_boy: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
16:28<Sturmi>thats good news
16:28<drac_boy>hm lets try without comma
16:28<Supercheese>Does it not like commas?
16:28<drac_boy>@calc 5175*9.81
16:28<@DorpsGek>drac_boy: 50766.75
16:28<Supercheese>apparently not
16:28<drac_boy>apparently not supercheese
16:28<Supercheese>jinx ?
16:29<__ln___>DorpsGek: commas are the standard decimal separator you silly.
16:29<frosch123>drac_boy: "," is totally stupid as thousand separator
16:29<drac_boy>anyway now I know how to convert these numbers myself, cheers either way
16:29<drac_boy>__ln___ yeah figures
16:29<frosch123>the only acceptable thousand separator is a space
16:29*Supercheese prefers commas
16:29<frosch123>but dorpsgek likely won't understand spaces either :p
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>__ln___, drac_boy: i don't think it helps if you mix both ;)
16:30<valhallasw>the only people who use thousand separators shouldn't care about four digits of precision in the first place
16:30<frosch123>Supercheese: are you from a coutnry which uses fahrenheit?
16:30<Supercheese>(don't say, "there's yer problem") :P
16:30<__ln___>i guess you use Rankine as well then.
16:31<frosch123>__ln___: don't confuse decimal and thousand separators
16:31<Supercheese>I hadn't used Rankine until I took thermodynamics at college
16:31<Supercheese>but yes, then I did
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>what's a rankine?
16:31<Supercheese>the absolute Fahrenheit
16:31<Supercheese>more or less
16:31<frosch123>Supercheese: i already told this channel at least once this week that fahrenheit is by far the most stupid unit
16:32<__ln___>Eddi|zuHause: like Kelvin, but the degrees are equal to fahrenheits.
16:32<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: rankine/fahrenheit is like celsius/kelvin
16:32<Supercheese>Stupid it may indeed be, but I still cannot work well in Celsius
16:32<valhallasw>frosch123: nononononono. try Shore hardness, or degrees Baumé
16:32<frosch123>valhallasw: i am sure they are better than fahrenheit
16:32<valhallasw>at least you can convert fahrenheits to something /sensible/
16:32<frosch123>fahrenheit is the idea to draw a line through a single point
16:33<frosch123>(hint: usually you need two)
16:33<Supercheese>I agree, but we're stuck with it here
16:33<Supercheese>I grew up with it and as such is easiest for me to work with
16:33<Supercheese>the rest of the country too
16:33<Supercheese>despite all protestations by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>it would only take one generation to adapt...
16:34<Supercheese>sometime in the 1970s they said "the US *will* adopt the Metric system"
16:34<Supercheese>and here we are
16:34<Supercheese>no closer
16:34<Supercheese>I blame our terrible government schools
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>germany switched in the 1850s
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>there wasn't even a germany at that point
16:35<Supercheese>(although industry probably isnt helping much either)
16:35<valhallasw>frosch123: Shore A is: 100 minus 'prod this material with a hardened steel rod 1.1 mm - 1.4 mm diameter, with a truncated 35° cone, 0.79 mm diameter, apply a mass of 822 grams for 15 seconds, measure the indentation and divide that by 2.54 mm, and multiply by 100'
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>just a bunch of individual states, no central government
16:36<Prof_Frink>At least your country is consistent.
16:36<Sturmi>i see inches and ounces in this shore explanation
16:36<valhallasw>Sturmi: yeah, I copied most of it from wikipedia, which uses metric units
16:36<LordAro>Prof_Frink: don't complain, it's awesome :)
16:37<Supercheese>Lately though, it seems the 'football field' has become a standard unit of measure -_-
16:37<valhallasw>oh, and degrees Baumé: "Baumé degrees (heavy) originally represented the percent by mass of sodium chloride in water at 60 °F (16 °C). Baumé degrees (light) was calibrated with 0°Bé (light) being the density of 10% NaCl in water by mass and 10°Bé (light) set to the density of water."
16:38<__ln___>i'm disappointed that there is no imperial unit for e.g. volts or bytes.
16:38<Prof_Frink>Supercheese: Not the Linguine?
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>__ln___: a "long byte" and a "short byte"? :)
16:39<frosch123>__ln___: dc power supply is the imperial voltage :p
16:39<Sturmi>imo the difference between kB and kiB gives enough confusion
16:39<Supercheese>60Hz AC vs. whatever y'all use over there
16:39<frosch123>oh, and big endian might be the imperial byte order
16:40<__ln___>ah, 60Hz vs 50Hz is a difference.
16:40<frosch123>Sturmi: interestingly kiB does not consist of 10-bit bytes :)
16:41<Prof_Frink>__ln___: I'm disappointed there isn't a metric unit for time. I mean, why is a day 86.4ks long? That's just silly.
16:41<valhallasw>frosch123: at least the French call them octets
16:41<Sturmi>frosch: dont give the imperials new ideas :D
16:41<frosch123>Supercheese: __ln___: nah, the real imperial power supply is dc, but i guess even the americany got rid of that :p
16:41<__ln___>Prof_Frink: Swatch Internet Time, 1000 beats = 1 day
16:42<Supercheese>Old Roman system of Hours and Watches
16:42<Supercheese>Daytime subdivided different than nighttime
16:43<Prof_Frink>Of course, the real mess is the reason Europe uses "230"V for electrickery.
16:43<frosch123>Sturmi: there is a metric unit for time: second
16:43<frosch123>there are no units for days or years, because their length is not constant relative to seconds
16:43<Sturmi>i know
16:44<Supercheese>Daylength is technically a function of seconds-since-universe-began or some such, no?
16:44<Supercheese>Same with yearlength, etc
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: what is that reason? as a kid i learned it would be 220V, but it was changed somewhen inbetween
16:45<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: because the UK used 240
16:45<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: UK was 240V, mainland europe was 220V.
16:45<frosch123>the only reasonable subunit of a day or year would be some rotation angle
16:45<valhallasw>the UK slightly decreased the voltage, while mainland increased it
16:45<frosch123>so, maybe the duration of days and years should be some "pi" unit
16:45<Prof_Frink>Rather than change the actual value, they just made it 230V and widened the tolerance band.
16:46<frosch123>or just fractional days :)
16:46<Sturmi>an hour is 15degrees
16:46<frosch123>cd or md :)
16:46<Supercheese>Days measured in radians
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>a circle is 400 degrees :)
16:47<Prof_Frink>Hours measured in radians (earth-based), days measured in radians (sun-based).
16:47<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: UK was 240V and the rest 220V so 230V was a nice number to standardise on
16:47<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: grad, not degree
16:48<Supercheese>Or better yet, fuel economy measured in Meters squared:
16:48<frosch123>@calc 400 / sqrt(3)
16:48<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 230.940107676
16:48<Prof_Frink>frosch123: Unless it's in the oven, in which case it can be 400 degrees too.
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>a number that doesn't really make any more sense than 360
16:48<valhallasw>@calc 230*1.06
16:48<@DorpsGek>valhallasw: 243.8
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>so it'd be totally pointless to switch
16:48<frosch123>so, i would go for 230.94 V :)
16:48<Supercheese>I think we're stuck with 360 and other base-60 stuff from ancient Babylon or some such
16:49<valhallasw>so any transformers that were outside 240+1.5% have been replaced by now
16:49<Supercheese>however that happened
16:50<frosch123>Prof_Frink: you are again stuck with silly units
16:50<frosch123>don't bake stuff with more than 200°C
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: some french people picked up that system in early modern times
16:50<Prof_Frink>frosch123: Ovens are in Gas Mark anyway.
16:50<LordAro>does anyone want to help me with some binary file format decoding?
16:51<Rubidium>"Gas mileage is measured in square meters" ;)
16:51<Supercheese>aye :D
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: well, "liters per 100 km" is a silly unit really :)
16:52<frosch123>Prof_Frink: i like how the wiki table classifies gas marks from "slow" to "hot" :)
16:52<frosch123>so, it's also a speed unit :p
16:53<Prof_Frink>My dad used to work in pharmaceuticals. He would regularly calculate doses in mg/lb.
16:53<frosch123>what's lb?
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>a pound i suppose
16:53<valhallasw>pound of body weight, I guess
16:54<frosch123>oh, gram per pound ... yeah, that is indeed a nice unit :)
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16:55<Eddi|zuHause>one of the odd things in early physics lessons in school: expansion coefficients in 1/K
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>instead of mm/(m*K)
16:56<Prof_Frink>What I want to know is, when the Yanks landed on the moon, did they use pounds for calculating the required thrust?
16:56<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, earlier this day i had also some trouble with S/m for conductivity
16:56<Prof_Frink>Because a pound doesn't weigh a pound on the moon.
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16:56<frosch123>when it is Sm/m^2 :)
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16:58<valhallasw>frosch123: same for ohm-meters, of course
16:58<LordAro>Prof_Frink: they probably made up their own units, to confuse the ruskies :)
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: i only know that they lost a mars probe because one company used metric and the other imperial units, and they didn't properly handle conversion
17:00<valhallasw>Prof_Frink: pound forces are the standard unit of force in foot-pound-second
17:01<valhallasw>or poundals, apparently
17:01<Sturmi>they even lost a complete prototype of the ariane 5 rocket due to imperial vs. SI
17:01<valhallasw>which are just pound feet per square second
17:01<Prof_Frink>valhallasw: Yes, but 1lbm only equals 1lbf at standard earth gravity.
17:02<__ln___>a gallon is quite a nice unit
17:02<valhallasw>Prof_Frink: as long as you're consistent with the subscripts ;-)
17:02<valhallasw>__ln___: which of the two?
17:02<Supercheese>British gallon or American gallon?
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17:04<Prof_Frink>British and American Gallons are the same. Both eight pints.
17:04<Prof_Frink>It's just that you guys get short-changed on your beer.
17:04<__ln___>the american one is exactly 231 cubic inches according to wikipedia. what a nice round figure.
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17:05<Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: but do you really want a full pint of american beer? :p
17:05<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: Good point, well made.
17:06<Prof_Frink>But I've just looke up Pint on Wiki, and it's worse than that.
17:06<Supercheese>"The imperial (UK) gallon was originally defined as the space occupied by 10 pounds (4.5 kg) of distilled water of density 0.998859 g/mL weighed in air of density 0.001217 g/mL against weights of density 8.136 g/mL."
17:06<Prof_Frink>However, whereas the imperial pint is divided into 20 imperial fluid ounces, there are 16 US fluid ounces to the US liquid pint making the imperial fluid ounce slightly smaller than the US fluid ounce.
17:07<Supercheese>And yes, you do not want any pint of American beer
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17:08<Supercheese>every brewery here feels the need to completely ignore centuries of established brewing standards and think up some new variety of ale, 99% of which are terrible
17:08<Supercheese>sorry, "ale"
17:09<Supercheese>barely worthy of the title
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: a bad beer is called "plörre" over here :)
17:18<drac_boy>short question, do you just call it platform or whats the name for that wide standing space on the front and rear of some earlier electric locomotives?
17:20<Supercheese>Would I have to type "ploerre" since I don't have umlauted-vowel keys?
17:21<Prof_Frink>Nah, just copypaste Eddi's umlautage.
17:21<Supercheese>Older versions of MSWord had nice shortcuts for those kinds of things
17:21<Supercheese>copy/paste is obvious, I meant if I had no access to copiable text
17:22<Supercheese>Used to be able to press something like Shift+;+[vowel] for umlauts
17:22<Supercheese>or was there a ctrl thrown in there
17:22<Prof_Frink>I just use kcharselect. ☃
17:22<Supercheese>Ctrl+shift+;+[vowel] sounds more like it
17:23<Supercheese>which is more intuitive than some alt+code, IMO
17:23<Prof_Frink>Compose key works something like that, but I've never poked around with it much.
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: yes, writing "oe" is allowed if you don't have an "ö"
17:24*Supercheese wonders if there's an Autohotkey script out there to emulate that behavior
17:24<Supercheese>I rather liked MSWord's style
17:25<valhallasw>Supercheese: US international has dead keys, i.e. "o = ö
17:25<valhallasw>and 'o is ó, `o is ò ^o is ô
17:26<Prof_Frink>UK international has LOUD-ER AND SLOW-ER.
17:26<__ln___>indeed, there's supposed to be the US International keyboard layout available in all windowses.
17:26<valhallasw>it's called US International on windows, it's called US <something> with dead keys on ubuntu/debian
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>you can also use a compose key or something
17:30<Supercheese>"German Umlaute Convenience Script for Superior US English Keyboard Layouts"
17:30<Supercheese>"Superior"? :o
17:31<Supercheese>Wait, surely there are more vowels than that
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>some people prefer US layout for programming purposes (more easily accessible {[]} keys)
17:32<Supercheese>perhaps not
17:32<valhallasw>on that subject, I'd like to ban ctrl-Q, or to ban azerty keyboards
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17:32<valhallasw>the amount of tabs I've closed while trying to select all >_<
17:33<Supercheese>Oh, guess I was thinking of Swedish special vowels and stuff
17:33<Supercheese>although I don't have cause to type those nearly as often
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: there are 5 vowels, but only 3 have umlaut-modifications
17:34<Supercheese>German doesnt use that O with a slash through it, then, I suppose
17:34<Supercheese>that's more of a Danish-etc. thing
17:34<frosch123>ë and ï exist as well :)
17:34<valhallasw>Supercheese: there's all the ó, ò, ô, õ, as well as the ðøöþåæ and µ which are not accessible with dead keys, but via alt-gr
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: no, that's danish
17:34<Supercheese>yeah, those
17:35<Supercheese>umlauted e... how would that work
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>ø in danish is the same as ö in german
17:35<frosch123>ë and ï are not umlauts, but diphthong-breaking letters
17:36<Prof_Frink>What about everyone's favourite - the umlauted n̈?
17:37<frosch123>"ei" "au" "eu "ui" are diphthongs which can be split using ï or ë
17:37<frosch123>they are also used to split ae oe ue
17:37<frosch123>to avoid confusion with äöü
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>there was an old thing there you put a - over an vowel (especially u) to make it sound longer, but it got out of fashion
17:37<Supercheese>So theoretically, Neu "noy" vs. Nëu "Neh-ooh" ?
17:38<Supercheese>or some such?
17:38<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: isn't there some script which uses an overline to distinguish u and m?
17:38<frosch123>or something like that?
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>that too
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>Sütterlin script and stuff
17:40<frosch123>ah, but sütterlin uses ŭ, so ū is still available :p
17:49<+glx>in french yes
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17:49<+glx>oups was scrolled
17:53<Supercheese>Well, that autohotkey script seems to work quite well
18:04<FLHerne>Daylength and TT-separation patches don't seem to mix well :-/
18:04<FLHerne>Not that surprising, I quess
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18:23<@Terkhen>good night
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18:32<drac_boy>I've been thinking about making my prices 'work' with daylength but well meh I still need to look into it a bit more :)
18:39<drac_boy>btw not sure if this is maybe a bit too long question but whats the difference between dc and ac to a dual-voltage locomotive? (providing its not one of these kind that is built for heavy fast trains...which would be a lot of kWs' just on ac alone)
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18:58<Supercheese>Hmm, it seems that autohotkey script can simply be rewritten using hotstrings, making the code much, much simpler
19:07<Supercheese>Jeez, very very much simpler
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19:13<Supercheese>Salve, amice
19:13<Pikka>ave charlie
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20:08<drac_boy>is there a limit to what dorpsgek can do anyway?
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---Logclosed Thu Dec 20 00:00:18 2012