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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-20

---Logopened Thu Dec 20 00:00:18 2012
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03:12<Pikka>:D
03:12<Pikka>AIAI septuple-heads train
03:12<Pikka>but on the other hand, it does build its railways straight up mountains
03:16<Supercheese>The 7 steam engines of the apocalypse
03:18<Supercheese>(unless they weren't steam engines, of course)
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03:20<Flygon>Supercheese: I am laughing so hard, I'm coughing
03:21<Supercheese>TBH, I don't even know what the "7 horsemen" or whatnot are supposed to be, I just hear that phrase thrown around a lot
03:22<Supercheese>but I can imagine seven steamers trying to pull a heavy train up a steep grade being rather terrifying to a theoretical 1st-century observer ;)
03:22<Flygon>It's the four horsemen
03:22<Supercheese>ah, see
03:23<Supercheese>I don't even get the quote right :P
03:23<Flygon>Pikka: is it making profit?
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03:40<dihedral>hello :-)
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03:57<@planetmaker>moin :-)
03:57<@planetmaker>Pikka, at least AIAI does build trains :-)
03:57<@planetmaker>seems that building reasonable train networks by AI is not an easy challenge
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04:21<Pikka>no, Flygon
04:21<Pikka>moin planetmaker
04:22<Flygon>Pikka: Poor AI
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04:58<Flygon>As i
04:58<Flygon>in*
04:58<Flygon>I feel sorry for it
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05:08<V453000>https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/EngineTable.png :>
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05:32<dihedral>V453000, too much time?
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07:17<V453000>dihedral: never :D
07:26<Flygon>Huh
07:26<Flygon>Nice touch
07:26<Flygon>Steam trains slow down in tunnels
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08:09<@planetmaker>V453000, looks like a nice overview. But I think the engines are not shown in a good way, they're IMHO very hard to identify in that representation
08:09<@planetmaker>Rather take an equally-sized box for each or so. Would enhance the ability to distinguish them
08:10<@planetmaker>The white border dominates their image by far too much right now
08:11<@planetmaker>but conceptionally it's one of the best overviews I've seen so far :-)
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08:31<@Terkhen>hello
08:32<Flygon>Hell
08:32<Flygon>...
08:32<Flygon>Hello
08:32<Flygon>Though, it's the 21st in Australia
08:32*Flygon chainsaws a Gangnam Zombie Demon
08:32<Flygon>Surviving quite well
08:33<V453000>thanks for the feedback pm :) I will try something
08:37<V453000>removing the white stroke and keeping the black outer glow looks better already
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08:56<@planetmaker>np :-)
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09:18<@Belugas>hello
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09:25<@planetmaker>hello sir saguleB :-)
09:28<Ammler>V453000: that table is too realistic!
09:28<V453000>:D
09:29<V453000>I think I will just try to recolour the trains to some more contrasting company colours pm :)
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: now do an overview for CETS as well :)
09:30<V453000>oh fuck no :P
09:30<V453000>10237 engines? :D
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>no, probably around 200 for the basic sets
09:32<V453000>still, this is around 100
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>grep core src/table/CETS_Tracking_Table.tsv | wc -l
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>387
09:33<V453000>just wtf :)
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>it can be simplified if you consider each epoch and each company individually
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>so you'll have ca. 50 engines in each ~40 year epoch for each company
09:34<V453000>if I cover 150 game years and provide _many_ reasonable choices/stat changes, I cant imagine what are 400 trains for
09:34<V453000>lol
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>if you really boil it down, your set and my set are not that different :)
09:36<V453000>I just wonder if you will have a few trains in the gigantic group which will have exceptional stats
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>not in the core set, but in the extended set possibly
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09:36<Eddi|zuHause>depends on what you mean by "exceptional
09:37<V453000>I mean in general trains which are more effective in transporting/have more power/are faster
09:38<V453000>your set can have endless amount of trains but if one train is too strong, the rest is irrelevanyt
09:38<V453000>-y
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the engines are grouped into "heavy freight", "light freight", "express passengers", "main line passengers" and "branch line passengers"
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>some are "universal"
09:38<V453000>which differs how? :)
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>"heavy freight" is usually slow to medium speed but very strong, "light freight" is low cost, "express passengers" is very fast, the others are slower, but faster than the speed limit of the wagons. express wagons have low capacity, passenger wagons have higher capacity, and commuter wagons have highest capacity
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>to model the "standing" of people in commuter wagons, the cargo decay rate is increased
09:41<V453000>sounds conceptually nice but "low cost" is pretty pointless tbh .)
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: it's gameplay value is intended at small feeder lines
09:42<V453000>cost isnt really anyhow important, you just have to make a more profittable network if it is an issue but that isnt too relevant to trains themselves
09:42<V453000>something like faster but weaker freight would be nice for that
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but there are only few examples of that kind
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>BR41 would fall into that category
09:43-!-NGC3982_2 [~mirc-appe@h-235-187.a147.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>smaller but faster than BR44
09:43<NGC3982_2>Evening, gentelemen.
09:43<V453000>ah, realistic trains
09:43<NGC3982_2>Basic question:
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise you can usually use passenger engines for that job
09:44<NGC3982_2>http://i.imgur.com/3N4Pu.png
09:44<V453000>ah right
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. V160, which is "universal" anyway
09:44<NGC3982_2>If that train comes to any of the destinations a day early, will it wait until the travel time is 14 days?
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982_2: the timetable is not complete
09:45<NGC3982_2>What have i missed? :)
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>the waiting times at the station
09:45<V453000>that is nice. I prefer having passengers as strong, fast, awesome - but passenger only trains ... but having passenger engines able to go with cargo and be like a FAST class, well, not too bad I would say :)
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09:45<drac_boy>hi
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: well. for "fast. awesome" you have express, "passenger wagons" usually have fairly low speed limit
09:46<+michi_cc>V453000: Most of the time CETS isn't really offering many overlapping engines (unless you look at all companies at the same time, DB, ÖBB and SBB together have overlapp of course). Generally it is only one or two engines per group per axle weight class.
09:46<V453000>:)
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09:46<NGC3982_2>Eddi|zuHause: The idea is to make the train complete the orderlist at exactly 28 days. Since the actual completion time is 26 days, i want the train to wait (or travel) slowly up to 28 days.
09:47<V453000>well, now go draw the 400 engines :P how much is done?
09:47<@planetmaker>V453000, all are done. Just some are a bit "square" in design ;-)
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982_2: you should set travel time to 13 and waiting time to 1, to have 28 days cycle time
09:47<NGC3982_2>Ooh
09:47*NGC3982_2 tries.
09:47<V453000>planetmaker: :D
09:48<drac_boy>CETS?
09:48<+michi_cc>The axle weight classes allow you to choose to either use your old tracks with somewhat inferior engines or upgrade to a new track type. An appropriate (base)cost structure and infrastructure maintenance let's the decision to be different for each type of network.
09:49<drac_boy>sorry but just whats CETS? heh web isn't helping much even if I add 'openttd' to it
09:49<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets
09:49<NGC3982_2>Eddi|zuHause: I think i understand what i missed in the original process. Thank you.
09:50<NGC3982_2>Eddi|zuHause: And merry christmas.
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09:50<@planetmaker>and for what it's worth, drac_boy, it's #3 on google for me
09:50<@planetmaker>with "cets openttd"
09:50<@Belugas>funny, sir rekamtenalp, very funny :)
09:50<@planetmaker>:-)
09:51<drac_boy>oh that europe set
09:51<drac_boy>michi_cc am I reading right that CETS has several different track types for the same gauge?
09:52<@planetmaker>wrong
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>CETS has no track types
09:52<@planetmaker>cets has no tracks
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>but it is prepared for a matching trackset
09:53<@planetmaker>^
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>which has several track types for standard gauge
09:53<drac_boy>oh I see
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>and optionally a narrow gauge type
09:53<drac_boy>so its basically alike to the different track price+maintenance thats been present in simutrans?
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know simutrans that well
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>but the idea is to model real-life "track classes"
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>with different axle weight
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09:54<Eddi|zuHause>(higher axle weight implies higher cost/maintenance)
09:54<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause mm simutrans offers 4 or 5 (I forgot now) different tracks from the cheap 50kph one to the expensive 300kph ones ... and if you eg bought a Bullet but only laid the 50kph tracks .... track maintenance would be cheap but the poor train is stuck at a very slow speed
09:54<drac_boy>axle weight now thats a new one...would be interesting
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: if you care only about speed, you should check out NuTracks
09:55<drac_boy>no more running your modern usa locomotives over older uk tracks ... HEH
09:55<drac_boy>it would break the rails in only a few days if you tried
09:56<drac_boy>either way I'll be interested in hearing how this rail type thing works out
09:56<+michi_cc>Speed is mostly dependent on track alignment and geometry and not on the way the rails and the track bed are constructed, so using speed to differentiate track types in-game is rather unrealistic (if I dare to say that :)
09:58<drac_boy>michi_cc maybe but don't express train expect well ballasted true rails ... while an once-a-day lowdown freight wouldn't care for wobby weedy tracks ballast or not?
09:58<drac_boy>just saying thats why I thought about speed in general
09:59<+michi_cc>The proposed CETS track set would still set some speed limits as e.g. the ICE3 or TGV have a very low axle weight and we don't want them to run well on very cheap tracks.
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: yes, there are some limits like speed over switches and stuff that depend on the way the rails itself are constructed, but if you think 200km/h vs. 300km/h, the curviness of the track is rather of concern
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10:01<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause hm actually you do have a point there, I think UIC defined highspeed turnouts ... compared to usa which often had a 30-50kph speed restriction (even still applies to some of the amtrak acela routes too...) on the branching leg of a turnout even if th straight leg was good for over 100kph
10:01<+michi_cc>drac_boy: This is Europe, not the US. Even disused and abandoned rail lines often look better than what US freight companies consider acceptable track.
10:05<drac_boy>yeah I agree
10:06<Flygon>Come to Australia
10:06<drac_boy>heh hi flygon :P
10:06<Flygon>We have lines with 25-40km/h speed restrictions
10:06<Flygon>This's considered freight grade
10:06<Flygon>The track is corrospondingly terrible
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10:10<Flygon>Interestingly, it's not often track condition for passenger lines that creates speed restrictions
10:11<Flygon>But level crossings
10:11<Flygon>High Speed lines run into curve issues, though
10:11<Flygon>But I'd bet $50 that they'd be 200km/h+ worthy without level crossings
10:13<drac_boy>hmmmm
10:13<drac_boy>don't see any recentish threads with the name cets or europe .. wonder what kind of trains they have
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the fastest switches i know have 200km/h on the branching side, but those are really rare. mostly you have a "slow" version with 100km/h straight and 40km/h branching, ocassionally faster versions with 60km/h branching
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: there is no thread yet
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: there will be a thread when we have a semi-complete 0.1(-alpha) version
10:15<drac_boy>oh ok
10:21<@planetmaker>the CETS thread is on IRC and on the link I gave earlier :-)
10:21<@planetmaker>and the links found at the link I provided. E.g. the tracking table
10:24<Flygon>Eddi: Don't the specially designed HSR switches have a theoretically unlimited speed? Due to lack of gaps?
10:25<Flygon>Just that the curve of the lines matters?
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>there is no such thing as a "theoretically unlimited speed"
10:26<Flygon>Theoretically in the sense that
10:26<Flygon>Pretty much nothing goes over 320km/h in any possible environment where you could need a switch :p
10:27<drac_boy>either way I finally looked up that dutch furniture thing earlier this morning.....
10:27<drac_boy>will have to spend a while reading about it in the afternoon..sure is a lot there for Objects heh
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: there is no theoretical limit to switch speed, yes, it's just a matter how much you want to pay
10:28<Flygon>Eddi: Fryillion dollars
10:33<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: But there is a limit: Surface area of the earth :) No amount of money will prevent you (or your passengers) from getting mushed on the side wall if the turnout is too sharp.
10:33<drac_boy>HEH
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: who said you're limited to earth? :)
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: and the question was "is there a limit to switch speed beyond curve speed itself"
10:35<+michi_cc>Constructing a rail line between two objects in relative motion might get tricky :p
10:45<Flygon>Look
10:45<Flygon>If we want to solve the curve problem
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>there are movable rails, like at an open pit mine :)
10:45<Flygon>We just need to use intergalactic freight trains
10:45<Flygon>And use light prisims as switches
10:46<Flygon>Just be sure to roll after you jump out of one
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: incidentally, a prism works by changing the speed of light
10:46<Flygon>Forgive me, I'm very tired x3
10:47<Flygon>I watched Futurama, it's stuck in my head, it's the 21st, and it's 2:46AM
10:47<Flygon>I'm probably gonna sleep on tthe keyboard :D
10:47<Flygon>Night, peeps :))
10:47<@peter1138>changable constants
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: speed of light isn't a constant
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>speed of light in vacuum is a constant
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>but a prism doesn't consist of vacuum :)
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10:59<drac_boy>hm can the catenary mast be on both sides or only one side of the track? just wondering
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11:06<Eddi|zuHause>in OpenTTD the catenary poles can be on either side of the track, but not on both at the same time
11:08<drac_boy>ah, thought it was still only one side
11:08<drac_boy>thanks
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>in TTDPatch, the catenary poles switch from left to right and back, in OpenTTD they are on the same side but on two parallel tracks the side is switched
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>near crossings and switches, the poles may be moved to a place that does not have a track
11:13<drac_boy>and I had a quick look at a few posts on that nutracks dev thread ... if they can include two types of narrow gauge and maybe one broad too that would be a nice track grf for just about any players and countries :)
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>tell that to them, not us :)
11:19<drac_boy>heh yeah I know..when I have time I'll see what the latest progress is and see if anyone else noticed that or not
11:20<drac_boy>because broad gauge...well....would be russia and spain in a major way afaik :P
11:20<drac_boy>and narrow gauge? umm I think I'll rather not mention it..theres just way too many out there
11:21<drac_boy>nice that they did define 3rd rail tho
11:22<drac_boy>some french people may like that after all
11:26<V453000>lol that thing with water towers is funny Eddi, I didnt know that
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>what's particularly french about 3rd rail?
11:28<drac_boy>oh don't know, just that I noticed a lot of the early electrifications were 3rd rail instead of overhead wire ... beats me as to why but its there
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11:28<drac_boy>even the one steep route into switzerland still was laid on 3rd rail
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>england used extensive 3rd rail networks
11:29<drac_boy>SR wasn't it?
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>and lots of commuter rail systems
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>almost all subways in the world
11:30<drac_boy>well...subways can't be done in openttd yet ... commuters - a bit different from a freights shared 3rd rail system but fair enough :)
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>(except trams which they placed underground)
11:32<drac_boy>...what is a benzolmotor now
11:33*drac_boy looks at unhelpful wikipedia
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11:42<drac_boy>anyway better find some lunch to eat etc
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12:43*lobster wonders into the channel
12:43<lobster>anyone 'round?
12:43<Prof_Frink>Nope.
12:48*bb10X drops lobster in boiling water
12:49<lobster>awwwwww
12:49<FLHerne>Yes
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13:00<lobster>okay, well I got a quick question
13:01<lobster>as Prof_Frink and FLHerne will probably know
13:01<lobster>but I updated NewStations to 0.5 and now it (OpenTTD 1.2.1) is being a bitch about missing the 0.44 grf
13:01-!-Mucht [~Martin@000128e2.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:01<lobster>is there an easy solution to this
13:01<lobster>?
13:01<lobster>and I mean, easier than editing the config files
13:02<FLHerne>lobster: I thought 0.5 was flagged as compatible with 0.4 anyway?
13:03<lobster>it is
13:03<lobster>but I guess it's OTTD itself that looks at it as different
13:03<FLHerne>For the purposes of loading savegames, it shouldn't mind as long as mblunck did it properly
13:04<FLHerne>Although he does have this thing for 'forgetting' OTTD compatibility :-/
13:06<Sacro>~.
13:06<Sacro>A~.
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13:12<lobster>FLHerne: well, I hadn't seen any other people where it didn't work
13:12<@planetmaker>if mb set compatibility info correctly, it won't matter on load. If not, it will and openttd will refuse to accept it as compatible
13:12<@peter1138>You'll need OpenTTD version r24715 (or higher) to run the NewStations set.
13:12<@planetmaker>it won't use 0.5 while 0.44 is there
13:13<lobster>I removed 0.44
13:13<@peter1138>1.2.1 is not 24715 or higher
13:13<lobster>filenames' the same
13:13<@peter1138>therefore it won't work
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13:13<lobster>peter1138: that might be it
13:13<@planetmaker>afaik there's nothing which stops it working below, though
13:13<lobster>I figured the 1.2.1 release was recenbt enough to be above that
13:13<@planetmaker>but... might be wrong
13:14<lobster>are there still OS X nightlies though?
13:14<lobster>the farm stopped at the time I played a lot
13:14<lobster>someone compiled it once a week
13:14*lobster checks
13:15<lobster>hey, wait a minute
13:15<lobster>why am I running 1.2.1
13:15<lobster>1.2.3 is the latest
13:16<lobster>what the fuck
13:16<@peter1138>also not new enough though
13:16<lobster>I should really clean up my OTTD folder
13:16<lobster>there's about 10 different installs in it
13:16<frosch123>planetmaker: he did not set the version info correctly
13:16<frosch123>it is marked as incompatible to older grfs
13:16<@planetmaker>:-)
13:16<lobster>0.6.0, 0.6.2, 1.0.3, 1.2.1
13:17<lobster>and a load of nightlies
13:17<@planetmaker>so, won't help to update your game, lobster
13:17<lobster>I was afraid of that, indeed
13:17<lobster>still, it's quite odd
13:17<frosch123>lobster: you are definitely lacking a ottd 0.3.5 for a bigger variety
13:17<lobster>no-one's commented on this before in the release thread
13:18<lobster>frosch123: I'm sure I have that somewhere too, though :p
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13:24<lobster>oh, hmmmm
13:24<lobster>return of the dreaded base grf error
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>my versions start only at 0.4.0 :/
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13:27<lobster>and downloading the latest base set nightly doesn't fix the problem
13:28<lobster>this is why I quit using nightlies :-/
13:30<@peter1138>no error here
13:30<@peter1138>oh i'm not using opengfx though
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>remind me again why opengfx can't use openttd.grf as fallback?
13:31<lobster>this is fixed when I use the original base graphics?
13:31<lobster>what the
13:31<lobster>that's quite odd
13:32<frosch123>lobster: if you use the ogfx nightly, it will have all sprites
13:33<frosch123>you probably used the latest stable
13:33<lobster>nope
13:33<lobster>nightly
13:33<lobster>made sure I didn't download the stable, indeed
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13:33<@Terkhen>which revision are you using?
13:33<Wolf01>hello :D
13:33<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01 :)
13:33<frosch123>the missing sprites were added to ogfx at least one month ago
13:33<lobster>this one: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/nightlies/LATEST/
13:33<frosch123>so, that would mean there would have been no nighlty for a month :p
13:34<Wolf01>but latest is not a valid version, maybe it's that
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>lobster: more likely that you didn't put it in the right place
13:34<@Terkhen>lobster: I'm using that same nightly with the most recent revision and I don't get any "sprites missing" error
13:34<lobster>although the various places OS X OpenTTD puts stuff I'm unsure if I've been able to delete all old files
13:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r24829 trunk/src/goal_gui.cpp (2012-12-20 18:35:13 UTC)
13:35<@Terkhen>lobster: open the options window and check the OpenGFX description displayed there, does it say r993?
13:35<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Reduce code duplication in the goal GUI
13:35<lobster>well, it's in the Users/Documents/OpenTTD/Baseset folder, like the readme said
13:36<lobster>actually it says 0.4.5
13:36<lobster>but I've deleted that version some time ago
13:37*lobster goes and checks where this thing's at
13:37<@Terkhen>lobster: it is grabbing it from another place then
13:37<lobster>the problem is that some changes as to where the game put it's files have been confusing me
13:37<lobster>I liked the everything-in-one-folder approach
13:38<@Terkhen>it may be placed in content_download/baseset folder too IIRC
13:38<@Terkhen>check the README to know the folder architecture
13:38<lobster>but I now have folders in root/Library/Apllication support/OpenTTD as well
13:38<lobster>dunno how they got there
13:38<lobster>that could be it, Terkhen
13:38<@Terkhen>root? because of the Users/Document path I assumed that you were using windows
13:39<@Terkhen>if you are using linux... package managers sometimes like to place stuff in other folders :P
13:39<+glx>OSX Terkhen :)
13:39<@Terkhen>ooh
13:39<@Terkhen>strange :P
13:39<lobster>OS X 10.6.8 to be exact
13:39<@Terkhen>I have no idea of the folders used by OSX
13:39<+glx>do we support 10.6 ?
13:40<@Alberth>Terkhen: think Linux strangeness**3 :)
13:40<@Terkhen>glx: we barely support OSX at all
13:40<@Terkhen>:P
13:40*Terkhen wonders if we support Windows 8
13:40<+glx>it should run in desktop mode
13:40<Wolf01>blocky trains, oh noes... wait, they are already so
13:41<lobster>holy shit what the fuck
13:41<lobster>it found ANOTHER OpenGFX somewhere
13:41<lobster>and this is version 0.2.4
13:41<lobster>:p
13:42<__ln___>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/20/cash_rich_wikipedia_chugging/
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24830 trunk/src/lang/turkish.txt (2012-12-20 18:45:06 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>turkish - 5 changes by niw3
13:47<lobster>ooooh
13:47<lobster>I also have the r8285 MiniIN
13:47<lobster>I'll keep that one
13:47<lobster>as it's pretty old
13:47<@Alberth>does it still run? :)
13:48<lobster>oh... nope
13:48<lobster>:P
13:48<lobster>I'll baleete it then
13:48<lobster>no use for stuff that don't even work
13:50<lobster>I actually have a neat and tidy OTTD folder now
13:50<lobster>how delicious
13:50<lobster>let's see if it works
13:50<lobster>nope
13:51<lobster>the 0.2.4 version's still somewhere out there
13:51<lobster>BUT WHERE
13:52<@Alberth>one option is to run openttd with -d 9 but that gives hell of a lot of output
13:53<@Alberth>you could first try -d grf=3 or so
13:53<@Alberth>higher numbers give more output
13:53<lobster>basically launch it from Terminal, right?
13:54<@Alberth>I am however not sure that baseset is dumped in the "grf" stream
13:54<@Alberth>yes, launch from the terminal, you could redirect output to a file
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13:56<@Alberth>and just waiting for the intro screen is sufficient :)
13:57<lobster>that worked like a charm, Alberth
13:57<lobster>although I always forget that the app file is a package
13:58<lobster>and it always takes me a minute to remember that
14:00<lobster>found it!
14:01<lobster>lil bugger was hiding in a data folder
14:02<@Alberth>remove everything!
14:02<@Alberth>files should be punished for hiding! :p
14:02<lobster>I have removed it, hah!
14:02<lobster>but now it doesn't find the OpenGFX nightly
14:02<lobster>guess the readme didn't get the folder for OS X right
14:03<lobster>there, now it works
14:03<lobster>but not the savegame
14:03<lobster>obv
14:03<@Alberth>please file a bug report for the readme
14:03<lobster>so I guess I'll turn on the scenario builder
14:04<lobster>actually I did put it in the right folder, but didn't unpack it
14:04<@Alberth>savegame dir is next to the openttd.cfg file I think
14:04<lobster>so it didn't recognize it somehow
14:04<@Alberth>.zip files are not recognized
14:04<lobster>yeah, I removed all excess OTTD folders now
14:04<lobster>indeed
14:04<@Alberth>.tar does work
14:05<@Alberth>as do plain files and directories :p
14:05<lobster>so there's just users/Documents/OpenTTD and the Application folder now
14:05<lobster>there's no shame in unzipping
14:05<lobster>errrr
14:05<lobster>wait
14:05<lobster>:p
14:17<lobster>thanks everyone anyway, for the help
14:17*lobster jumps back to the game
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14:24<lobster>actually I can't get the game loaded
14:24<lobster>"For scenario developers, a configuration option exists to enable scenario developer tools, which permit changing grfs in-game (for debugging and testing). This option (scenario_developer) is only available in openttd.cfg or the console."
14:24<lobster>oddly enough, I can't find that command at all
14:24<lobster>or setting/variable
14:25<@Alberth>that doesn't sound like the error message you'd get from a failure to load a game
14:25<lobster>doesn't show up when I do list_cmds s either
14:25<lobster>t'is indeed not Alberth
14:26<lobster>can't load it because it doesn't recognize the 0.5 NewStations as the new version of the 0.44 one
14:26<lobster>so I'm trying to set the debug mode so that I can edit grf files in-game
14:26<@Alberth>last time I did math class, 0.44 was not 0.5 :p
14:27<lobster>quite true, but MB claimed it's compatible
14:27<lobster>which it clearly isn't
14:27<lobster>now I'm only playing one game at a time, and I want those juicy new stations in this game
14:27<lobster>but that's proving to be a tough job
14:28<@Alberth>then MB made an error
14:28<lobster>he did
14:28<lobster>and oddly enough no-one mentioned it yet
14:28<@Alberth>in the sense that he wrongly stated 0.44 as not compatible
14:29<lobster>did everyone start a new game with the 0.5 version?
14:29<lobster>I can't imagine that
14:29<@Terkhen>the new version of NewStations is not on the online content either?
14:30<FLHerne>Terkhen: It's mblunck being a TTDP-supremacist again :-(
14:30<@Alberth>lobster: I always continue playing with the grfs I started with
14:31<@Terkhen>FLHerne: given the interest that MB NewGRFs raise, I was hoping for a practical solution for them
14:31<FLHerne>Terkhen: You persuade him, then :P
14:32<@Terkhen>I don't know his particular reasons for not using the online content, I never pay much attention to NewGRFs that I cannot use without having to do everything manually
14:32<FLHerne>At least three people inc. me have asked about it in the release thread :P
14:32<lobster>I don't think it's a good idea to ask MB for that though
14:32<lobster>he's really stubborn
14:33<lobster>for no reason at all, obv
14:33<lobster>I think he believes there's no control from his side on BaNaNa-content
14:33<lobster>or something like that
14:34<@Alberth>I would really like to understand it, but so far I failed :(
14:34<@Terkhen>I was just curious in case I was able to test the NewGRF... his reasons are his reasons, I'm not going to enter any debates :P
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14:36<@Alberth>lobster: I am really wondering what it is, which goes wrong.
14:37<lobster>Alberth: with the newgrf? probably different grf-id
14:37<lobster>or something trivial like that
14:38<@Alberth>lobster: with not having control on BaNaNas content. He also has no control about what players do with his grf
14:39<lobster>yeah, he's just anal about that I guess
14:39*lobster brb
14:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r24831 trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp (2012-12-20 19:43:54 UTC)
14:44<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5398]: [NewGRF] Incorrect values are better than a crash when a NewGRF queries vehicle variable 4C before vehicle initialisation is completed.
14:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r24832 /trunk/src (roadveh_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp) (2012-12-20 19:43:58 UTC)
14:44<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5397]: [NewGRF] Take bridge speed limits into account for vehicle variable 4C.
14:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r24833 /trunk/src (7 files) (2012-12-20 19:44:02 UTC)
14:44<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Replace magic numbers for invalidating vehicle-related windows with an enum.
14:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r24834 /trunk/src (order_gui.cpp train_cmd.cpp) (2012-12-20 19:44:06 UTC)
14:44<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5396]: The autorefit dropdown in the order GUI wasn't always updated when modifying vehicle consists.
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15:27<andythenorth>bonsoir
15:31<@Alberth>evenink
15:34<lobster>HUNGRY
15:35<lobster>also hallo
15:38*Alberth presses 'pause' at the openttd game toolbar for lobster
15:38<lobster>you pause for me!
15:38<lobster>it's so romantic!
15:38<lobster>\o/
15:38<@Alberth>we can't have players die-ing of hunger!
15:39<lobster>now that is quite true
15:39<lobster>although I am cooking, so I won't be dead for too long
15:39<lobster>delicious boerenkool :3
15:40<@Alberth>with aardappelen, I guess :)
15:41<Rubidium>Alberth: nah, with patat ;)
15:41<@Alberth>interesting combination :)
15:42<lobster>stamppot obv :D
15:42<lobster>with a truly delicious ambachtelijke rookworst, and spekjes
15:42<lobster>and jus
15:42<Rubidium>Alberth: I reckon you're not south enough yet ;)
15:42*lobster is already watering at the mouth with the promise of deliciousness
15:42<Rubidium>though I would've reckoned Eindhoven is southern enough
15:42<@Alberth>it must be my northern roots :p
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17:03<V453000>planetmaker: I think I have figured it out finally https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/EngineTable.png
17:04<Supercheese> Oooh, shiny
17:05<frosch123>are the columns inside the columns different railtypes?
17:05<welshdragon>Gentlemen, I wish to find infrastructure costs (how much it is to build x type of track), How is this defined in OpenTTD? I'm assuming in the NewGRF?
17:05<frosch123>the railtype defines it
17:05<frosch123>and there is a base cost multiplier
17:06<frosch123>for general infrastructure cost
17:06<V453000>yes frosch
17:06<V453000>I originally intended to put some rails there to make that obvious
17:07<frosch123>what? why does the logic train have generations?
17:07<V453000>well technically, those three are rail/mono/mag
17:07<frosch123>ah
17:07<V453000>the bonus "class" has it mixed up a bit
17:08<frosch123>i never reached any of the rainbow class
17:08<V453000>the rest should be 1/2/3 rail/mono/maglev
17:08<V453000>lol :d
17:08<V453000>well you play 7 years games with andy ..
17:08<frosch123>also in singleplayer :p
17:09<V453000>:P
17:09<V453000>the rainbow class gets some friends on 0.4.0
17:09<frosch123>when i still had time i played 256x256
17:09<V453000>not shown here yet :)
17:09<frosch123>now i usually only play 128x256
17:09<V453000>256x256 is fun
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17:12<frosch123>V453000: i know that you don't like closed wagons, why is the pax wagon closed?
17:13<V453000>I actually really considered making them open :D
17:13<frosch123>cabriolet!
17:13<V453000>exactly :D
17:13<frosch123>ok, at least you considered it :)
17:13<V453000>I am drawing a new class of wagons so it isnt completely unlikely to happen very soon
17:13<V453000>hm those trains will actually probably not have passenger support
17:13<V453000>so ye
17:14<V453000>still, it is possible :)
17:14<frosch123>there seem to be quite a lot of wagons around 1990-2000
17:15<V453000>I mainly am going to add super complex feature of flexible train stats - train is longer -> engine has more/less power
17:15<frosch123>ah, railtypes again i guess
17:15<V453000>yeah the new ones are monorail
17:15<frosch123>why is there a monorail local engine, but no pax wagons?
17:15<frosch123>or am i misreading that?
17:16<V453000>the upper 1990 is monorail
17:16<V453000>wagon to the right is passenger
17:16<V453000>or express, to be exact
17:17<@Terkhen>good night
17:17<V453000>gn
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17:21<drac_boy>hi
17:21<frosch123>night
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17:32<drac_boy>so I'm just ask a slight dumb question, in the rail buy list .. everything betwen Cost: to Max Reliability: are pretty much fixed there but any extra lines below that can be optionally added as long as you don't go too crazy? (I can not imagine having 30+ lines of details in that one window heh)
17:33<V453000>you can add as many lines as you want I guess
17:33<__ln___>HAS THE WORLD ENDED YET?
17:33<V453000>additional_text: string(STR_NAME_LOGIC); in graphics{}
17:33<V453000>substitute STR_NAME_LOGIC With your string .. :)
17:34<drac_boy>V453000 well I mean theres 7 lines already now .. how would a user feel like if it changed to 30 lines all just for one single lousy locomotive? :P
17:34<V453000>would you really write there 30 lines?
17:35<drac_boy>I think the ones for HEQS seem to be a little long enough sometimes ... a few times I've had the buy list placed near bottom of openttd window .. then click on one of these tram .. and the two buttons proceed to shoot out of bound :->
17:35<drac_boy>V453000 of course not, that was just an example :P
17:36<V453000>hm :)
17:36<V453000>I think NUTS adds up to like 5-7 lines
17:36<V453000>not sure how many max
17:36<drac_boy>mm 14 lines sounds fine with me still .. thats not too much height space needed
17:37<drac_boy>what do you have these 5-7 lines for? just wondering
17:37<V453000>yeah up to 7
17:38<V453000>have a look yourself :) wagon capacities, train class, info about tilt
17:38<V453000>attachment info
17:38<V453000>wagon loading speeds
17:38<V453000>and other important info
17:39<V453000>and sometimes just some pseudo-funny quotes
17:40<drac_boy>heh .. sounds interesting
17:40<V453000>it is really good to know all the details
17:41<V453000>and I got a lot of positive feedback for that, too ... so it isnt just me probably :)
17:41<drac_boy>anyway about that...I don't know if you want to give me any "realistic" answers or not...but do you think that stating whether a wagon is braked or not braked should be known in the wagon's classification name and/or as an extra detail in the buy list?
17:41<V453000>depends what does that mean for the player
17:42<V453000>if it is as imortant info as "vehicle is red" then you probably know the answer, if it defines which trains can the wagon be attached to, it almost has to be there
17:42<V453000>my opinion at least
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>__ln___: http://hastheworldendedyet.co/
17:44<V453000>wait I thought it was at teh end of 21th?
17:44<V453000>IM NOT DRUNK YET
17:44<drac_boy>well I meant like eg a wagon named 'Kb goods van' as in K class and braked ... or the buy list has a 'Brakes:' field .... or even a combination of both
17:45<drac_boy>heh Eddi|zuHause
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17:45<V453000>what use for gameplay does that have?
17:45<drac_boy>this whole maya thing has been going around for a while I just don't understand any of it anymore
17:45<V453000>you cant for example attach engine X to braked wagon?
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17:46<drac_boy>V453000 because if its unbraked then it needs a brake van before it'll want to leave the depot
17:46<V453000>well then it is quite important info
17:46<V453000>brake vans are dumb btw
17:48<drac_boy>maybe but theres actually some instances of it not being a dedicated brake van but as a part of another wagon ... say a bogie covered wagon with 3/4 of space given over to goods as usual but then other 1/4 for the brake compartment
17:48<drac_boy>but yeah most of the times brake van are just empty cars in term of gameplay
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, some wagons had a brake cab (waaay less than 3/4 space)
17:49<drac_boy>come to think about it germany and switzerland had a lot of handbraked wagons
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17:49<V453000>empty cars with only the complication to attachment allowances
17:49<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause yeah these little wooden huts indeed
17:50<V453000>if you want to make wagons less effective, just reduce their capacity
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely saw a statistics that said about every 4th wagon was with brake
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>i won't model braked/unbraked wagons in CETS
17:50<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause you know, I always wondered how come the brake huts are always raised to just a bit above the roofline .. always requires a bit of a ladder-like stairway to get to it
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>except through random graphics variations maybe
17:50<drac_boy>or is it because they need to be able to view the train for some reason?
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the "communication" between people went over the roof of the train
17:51<drac_boy>ohhh flag/flashlight signals kind of things?
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>the "train leader" had to see the individual people operating the brakes
17:51<drac_boy>makes sense now
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>also the cabooses had a raised roof, where the "train leader" would sit
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>or in passenger trains the luggage wagon
17:53<drac_boy>pre-airbrakes in usa there were a lot of young people as Club men (not sure if that was the offical name) whose's only job were to walk down the roof plankways and tighten the brake wheels with clubs as soon as the engineer whistled for brakes. dangerous job indeed
17:53<drac_boy>don't know where they stayed at when not needed .. probably still sitting on the roof :-s
17:54<drac_boy>airbrakes removed that job .. and eventually even FRA more or less banned any roof walkways existance for good as well
17:55<drac_boy>I'm thinking I wouldn't model brakes too much (beside in 1920 how likely is it theres anything thats still unbraked?) but may still provide the graphics just for the user to use if they wanted some realism in train makeups
17:56<drac_boy>still have to look through some more datas to decide yet
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>a) i start ~1870, and b) 1920 was only the beginning of widespread air pressure braking
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17:57*drac_boy wouldn't complain about early starters :P
18:02<drac_boy>btw I don't know if it might have confused some player a bit too much but I do wonder about some railroads that ran a mix of seperate vaccum and air braked consists
18:02<drac_boy>can't mix them obviously
18:03<Wolf01>'nighty night
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18:03<V453000>there were multiple reasons why I didnt actually make earlier engines than 1920 ... first off, if you start too early, you would need ridiculously strong/capacitous trains later on, which is pretty bad - all that because industries would start growing earlier. Secondly because the early trains would have to be slower than current 1920 trains which could get to a point of boringly slow. And well, I thought 150 years of new trains coming is go
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: it's fine, you're going further into the future instead
18:05<V453000>I guess
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>1870-2013 is also around 150 years :)
18:05<V453000>yeah that is true
18:06<drac_boy>heh heh
18:10<V453000>well, more features tomorrow
18:10<V453000>gnight
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18:18<drac_boy>future ... 2015+ sets anyone? and it better have ground-hovering road vehicles with very high speed but poor cornering :P
18:18<drac_boy>heh heh
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>*cough*OTTD+500*cough*
18:19<drac_boy>500?
18:23<drac_boy>what you mean by 500 there anyway?
18:24<Supercheese>Bleh, road vehicles can't go diagonally so they're no good for diagonal long-distance routes
18:24<drac_boy>its not road vehicle .. its the map grid ;)
18:24<Supercheese>Anyway, future vehicles are all about VTOL craft
18:25<Supercheese>haul everything by "helicopters"
18:25<drac_boy>except how do you exempt the idiot drivers? theres some things better left on the ground :)
18:25<drac_boy>just had to say that heh heh
18:25<Supercheese>I've made some future cargo aircraft, but since I plagarized sprites I can't distribute them :(
18:25<drac_boy>mm
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18:30<drac_boy>anything you currently working on or not so much?
18:31<Supercheese>I'm wanting to release a newobjects set
18:31<Supercheese>gotta work on it over Christmas break
18:34<drac_boy>what sort of objects?
18:35<Supercheese>The main objects, and what I expect to be the most popular, are circling seagulls
18:35<Supercheese>great for harbors/fishing grounds
18:36<drac_boy>heh
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18:36<Supercheese>I also would like to do a shark, an aircraft carrier, and maybe some more
18:36<Supercheese>but as I said, I've a lot to work on
18:38<drac_boy>so that would have the flags set to a value of 1611 you think? :-p editor only, not removeable, on water, animated (looks better no?), not drawn on land, and water tile drawn underneath :)
18:38<drac_boy>or thats as far as I've recognized the flags thing for Objects yet :)
18:39<Supercheese>Flags? I use NML
18:39<Supercheese>bitmask(OBJ_FLAG_ON_WATER, OBJ_FLAG_NOT_ON_LAND, OBJ_FLAG_DRAW_WATER, OBJ_FLAG_ALLOW_BRIDGE);
18:39<drac_boy>well meh that goes to show how broken the wiki seem to be .. it lists newgrf but wouldn't list the non-nfo things sometimes
18:39<Supercheese>sorry
18:39<drac_boy>mm
18:39<Supercheese>wrong object
18:40<Supercheese>bitmask(OBJ_FLAG_ON_WATER, OBJ_FLAG_NOT_ON_LAND, OBJ_FLAG_DRAW_WATER, OBJ_FLAG_ANIMATED);
18:40<Supercheese>that's the right one
18:40<Supercheese>animation_info: [ANIMATION_LOOPING, 18];
18:40<drac_boy>and why is there two wikis when the latter one seem to redirect you to the former on a lot of links anyway :->
18:41*drac_boy will rather not get too far into this tho
18:41<drac_boy>either way supercheese sounds like an interesting object to release on december 31 maybe :)
18:42<Supercheese>No idea when I'll finish/release it :|
18:43<drac_boy>me neither heh
18:43<Supercheese>I have 1 working animated seagull (which looks real neat IMO), but that was the easiest
18:43<Supercheese>seagull flock* rather
18:45<drac_boy>that reminds me
18:45<drac_boy>I wonder how that thing work where ecs includes 'extra' buildings into a town .. and they don't have the usual acceptance/output as houses do
18:46<drac_boy>doubt its actually objects or .. is it
18:46<Supercheese>They're just custom houses
18:50<drac_boy>not sure if you might know anything about this quick question just to check: can you alter the yearly cost through livery-like refit?
18:50<drac_boy>for wagons and so
18:50<Supercheese>Do you use NML or NFO?
18:51<Supercheese>I know precisely nothing about NFO
18:51<drac_boy>atm nfo since I'll like to release it initially with patch support. and thanks anyway, I'll just find that out eventually later on anyway :)
18:51<Supercheese>Yeah sorry, raw hex makes my brain ache
18:52<drac_boy>heh np. I'm actually going to make a commented template (and check it with someone) then reuse it over and over for each wagons I wanted. I know it'll be a bit larger files but meh whats the harm :)
18:53<drac_boy>right now its just mainly tracking table and slowly drawing some sprites atm
18:54<drac_boy>supercheese you know..I did play a little bit with xml but just don't have any interest anymore now tho. especially when its difficult to even find anyone to help you with xslt to parse it ... oh well meh to that!
18:55<Supercheese>.xml? Not for OTTD, then, eh?
18:56<drac_boy>actually heh no .. for website
18:56<drac_boy>:)
18:59<drac_boy>supercheese I don't know how much you would be into actual trains but do you think doubledeck coaches were usually only for passengers. its unlikely any of these types ever had mail sections?
18:59<Supercheese>Hmm, most Amtraks I've seen I'm pretty sure have been passenger only
19:00<@peter1138>OH GOD IT'S ENDED
19:00<Supercheese>?
19:01<drac_boy>yeah and the old photos of steam hauled dopplestocks always shows at least one or two standard post vans placed either behidn the tender or on the tail .. except for commuter scheduled trains
19:01<drac_boy>so I guess no mail refit then
19:01<drac_boy>Supercheese I think peter1138 is refering to that "end of the world" crap? ;)
19:01<Supercheese>oh
19:05<drac_boy>Supercheese have you ever looked up the classification system used by the japan railways?
19:10<drac_boy>its crazy some of the things you theriocally could get away with (they don't exist for real ofc) under their system .. look at the first table on http://sunny-life.net/train_symbol/trainsymbol.htm and try figure out what a KUMOSINI+KURONEYA two car 'luxury' trainset would sound like if it had existed heh heh
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19:32<drac_boy>hi pikka
19:32<Pikka>hello
19:34<drac_boy>had something thats a bit of a question and a suggestion at same time...
19:35<drac_boy>why not take an idea out of the japan trainset grf and add a short single line re braking details to the buy list? as it is they say 'no continous brakes - brake van required' but you can use a shorter wording
19:35<drac_boy>for ukrs
19:36<drac_boy>as it is now (or last I remember trying it) there was nothing but the refuse-to-leave-depot error message so mm
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>"brake van required for long trains"
19:37<drac_boy>actually it says absolutely nothing in ukrs3 unless thats a buggy version I have
19:39<drac_boy>anyway it was only more of a suggestion, I've been playing 'japan' maps some too many times to count :->
19:44<drac_boy>anyhow I did have an actual question...
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19:45<drac_boy>could a uk locomotive have worked a few unbraked wagons (say 4 mineral cars loaded with milk churns or something) without requiring a brake van at all?
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19:49*drac_boy goes back to uncluttering the damn table
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19:55<Pikka>yes, it could drac_boy
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20:07<drac_boy>they never explained much about it but in the photos of the trains that appears to be with brake vans at both ends .. I presume such freight trains were for working in both directions with no need to doubleshunt to get a single brakevan moved to other end of train if that was going to be the case otherwise?
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20:09<drac_boy>it seem to be rather a uk-specific thing as far as I can even remember from varying photos
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20:17*drac_boy still thinks flygon need to get out of australia if he's going to keep complaining about gauge problems and weak locomotives! heh
20:17<Flygon>I just woke up
20:17<Flygon>Weak locomotives?
20:17<drac_boy>:P
20:17<drac_boy>well thats what you mentioned some of the times
20:17<Flygon>They were only reeaaally weak between 1950s to 1980s
20:18<Flygon>Nowadays, they're double headed more than a dude in an orgy
20:18<drac_boy>need some coffee btw flygon?
20:18<drac_boy>lol
20:21<Flygon>It's just odd
20:22<drac_boy>:)
20:22<Flygon>VR would use weak locomotives for passenger services... and everything else for freight
20:22<Flygon>Except for passenger services that actually needed acceleration
20:22<Flygon>And they wondered why everyone was going towards cars @_@
20:23<drac_boy>heh heh
20:24<drac_boy>flygon is that like a throwback to the 1890-1900s in usa where someone would board a train expectijng to read newspaper while holding a cup of coffee .. and take his time? :)
20:24<Flygon>Well, they do that nowadays
20:24<Flygon>Barring the coffee
20:24<Flygon>There's enough distance between stops :p
20:24<drac_boy>heh heh
20:24<drac_boy>flygon mind you...
20:25<Flygon>It's actually kinda funny
20:25<Flygon>Lots of people are pissed off, because we lack HSR between Sydney and Melbourne
20:25<Flygon>Thing is, to make it commerically viable against airlines, two things need to happen
20:26<Flygon>Airlines need to be shut down from using Melb-Syd as a route
20:26<Flygon>Or the trains need to go over 400km/h
20:26<Flygon>We actually don't realize how far distances are between things
20:26<Flygon>However, we find it hilarious when Brits complain thier trains are slow and take too long
20:27<Flygon>...I live in a state that's bigger than the British isles. One of the smallest states in Australia.
20:27<drac_boy>one time I booked the train straight from toronto to montreal ... specified a table seat (each coach has four of them, two toward each end. easy to secure these unless at one of the few stations that don't provide seat reservation ticketting and the train is full) .. and guess what it looked like more than two hours later? ...
20:27<Flygon>Hm?
20:28<drac_boy>laptop near the aisle end of table .. my bag on the spare window seat (noone was taking it just yet) ... lunch paperplate near the window .. newspaper sprawn across the bag ... a little bit of clutter on the floor .. and me reading a large magazine in my aisle seat :)
20:29<drac_boy>the person on other side of the table didn't even say anything about it except for "you sure are one train sleeper" near montreal where the train terminated ..... heh!
20:31<drac_boy>it was a 5+ hour trip so....ehhh I'll do whatever I want with the space given unless someone else asked for it :)
20:32<drac_boy>normally if you get a non-table seat and the next seat next to you isn't free you only have just about enough space for a bag under your legs and to read one papers ... but thats about it
20:32<drac_boy>^_^
20:33<drac_boy>about the brits complaining about slow trains ... they better not visit japan then .. everything's fast AND people complain about tiny delays! :P I think I have heard the same of NS train delays too
20:34<Flygon>Sorry for the delay
20:35<drac_boy>thats ok :)
20:35<drac_boy>I'll only be asking if you didn't say one thing for a hour .. you know how that goes ;)
20:39<Flygon>The Japanese would hate going to Australia
20:39<Flygon>Here, delays of up to 15 minutes isn't considered unusual
20:39<Flygon>Though, the max allowable delay (without penalties) for Metro is 6 minutes
20:40<Flygon>V/Line's given slack, because most delays happen in zones they can't control (eg. Metro zones)
20:40<drac_boy>well I think it doesn't help that japan have the thing with riding more than one train at once often so .. delays aren't something workable
20:40<Flygon>So as soon as a Diesel fast train hit's non-RFR V/Line tracks, it'll go from 160-200km/h to below 80km/h :P
20:41<drac_boy>eg leave point A at 9:37 .. arrive at B at 10:02 .. next train due on adjacent platform at 10:04 ... arrive at C at 10:36
20:41<Flygon>Doesn't Japan have enough frequency to make it less of a problem?
20:41<Flygon>eg. sub-10 minute frequency
20:41<drac_boy>flygon thats only for some of the heavy commuter routes
20:42<drac_boy>but otherwise for other routes...different trains come at different times so its sorta a "seasonal" thing
20:42<drac_boy>especially when its only one or two platforms shared by many different classes
20:44<drac_boy>for example.. limited express at 9:26 ... short commuter at 9:47 ... local at 9:53 ... etc
20:45<drac_boy>at least larger stations do sometimes seperate their service by platforms but nevertheless
20:45<drac_boy>so you can see why with different services, a delay in connection is not going to work
20:47<drac_boy>flygon I still can't really understand japan trains but :P
20:47<Flygon>Ah, I see...
20:47<Flygon>Here, things just sorta... well
20:47<Flygon>Go
20:47<drac_boy>and these dmu/emu trains dressed up to look like something from anime? I just can't understand them a LOT more!
20:48<drac_boy>especially the ones with "hello kitty!" livery on sides and an actual resemble to a kitten on the front (with the two cab windows being the "eyes" on the face
20:48<Flygon>eg. the timetables tend to be set to fixed frequencies, barring peak periods, where they just shove as many trains as there is slot
20:49<Flygon>So it's not unusual for a train to just come every 15-20 minutes, nearly on the dot (give or take a minute)
20:49<Flygon>V/Line trains have a bit more time variance, due to crossing loops
20:49<Flygon>Crossing loops: The Diesel Fast Trains's worst nightmare
20:50<drac_boy>heh
20:51<Flygon>And in recent times, a more unusual sort of delay is "Held up by Metro EMU"
20:52<Flygon>Since the Comengs struggle to get over 90km/h on the uphill RFR tracks they DO go on... due to both age and how heavy they are (stainless steel ect0
20:52<Flygon>While the Siemens trains could probably break 140km/h... if the braking curve permitted, and the substations wouldn't shut down @_@
20:53<drac_boy>actually that reminds me of something a bit humorful...one moment...
20:54<Flygon>Like, in the very first test run in a Comeng for the Sunbury electrification (first electric train, actually), they basically thrust the throttle to full, and sat for a few minutes
20:54<Flygon>They recorded this on video from the cab
20:54<Flygon>You could clearly see them discussing line speed limits... at least one seemed a tad surprised that it was faster than the EMU's ever top achieved sleep :p
20:55<Flygon>But you could hear their disappointment when they were about to reach Sunbury... and all they got, given the train had the throttle set to full blast, all they got is 90
20:56<Flygon>However, when going back from Sunbury, the trains go downhill... and they have some of the fastest Metro track on the network
20:56<Flygon>And I've seen them fly by when doing a train non-passenger transfer. I was actually shocked by how fast it was going... if the driver was abusing the Comeng's lack of speed restrictors, he was doing a good job of it. :p
20:57<drac_boy>some people have joked about this being darth vader's train ... I think the resemblence to his mask is maybe a bit too obvious :) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Nankai50000Series01.jpg/800px-Nankai50000Series01.jpg
20:57<Flygon>Hahaha wow what
20:57<Flygon>That's ridiculous looking
20:57<drac_boy>its a limited express train
20:58<drac_boy>36 of them built from 1994
20:58<Flygon>In Australia, it's a limited cab train @_@
20:58<Flygon>Only 36?
20:58<Flygon>Seems low
21:00<drac_boy>well its not low....they have so many different classes ... sometimes pratically not even at least a year apart in build dates
21:00<Flygon>Wouldn't it be most efficient for a company to stick with a single design for 15 years, and then work on a new one?
21:01<Flygon>I used to think the Japanese were like borg
21:01<Flygon>Now I think they're like...
21:01<Flygon>...not borg :U
21:01<drac_boy>and btw if you want "classic" that seem alike to 50's usa cars .. try this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/JNR_489_Express_Noto.jpg/640px-JNR_489_Express_Noto.jpg
21:01<drac_boy>especially the raised (in forward manner) light housings
21:01<Flygon>Difference is, drac_boy, that last one doesn't look too bad
21:02<drac_boy>and btw flygon believe it or not but if you want ask about the 80-110kph emus with simple flat front ends ... theres at least 60+ different classes of them .. only varying by small comestic details
21:03<Flygon>Oh
21:03<Flygon>That's not weird to me :)
21:03<drac_boy>electrical and seating wise sometimes they do have a big differences tho
21:04<Flygon>http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1049/1345925739_2280abfa80.jpg This'll break 120km/h on good track :)
21:05<drac_boy>ugly robotic face .. and why tampered inward rather than outward? where do all the splattered water go to? :P
21:06<Flygon>(funnily enough, that train was designed after the Hitachi trains... which had a streamlined triangular face. They have nearly the exact same specifications... the only actually meaningful difference is that Comengs have aircons :p)
21:06*Flygon shrug
21:06<Flygon>It's Japan
21:07<Flygon>They did something for a reason
21:07<drac_boy>well the emus I've seen always had a outward curved front of some means
21:07<drac_boy>flygon one more thing before I forget to tell you...
21:07<Flygon>http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1369/1371804691_0645331d32_z.jpg?zz=1 Oh jeeze. This is ugly.
21:08<Flygon>http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7120/7587867490_4ce4f2247c_z.jpg It used to look cool and snazzy @_@
21:08<drac_boy>one of the particular bullet train (dated 1990s or 2000s somewhere) looked normal till you watched it go by trackside and tried to not confuse yourself...
21:09<Flygon>Got a photo?
21:09<Flygon>Also... heh
21:09<Flygon>That flat faced Comeng I showed earlier
21:09<drac_boy>one end of that train had a particular nose shape .. other end was completely different .. more slanted ...as I recall they operated on a tunnels-filled line so the particular rear sculpture was to lessen the wind shockwaves
21:09<Flygon>http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i168/C6H12O6_2006/OriginalModel_1970.jpg It's prototype had a CURVED face O_o
21:09<Flygon>Ah, yes, tunnelboom?
21:10<drac_boy>yeah I think the trains were built to operate mainly in one particular direction so the more slanted nose got the exit end ... less "sucking" of the wind right out of tunnel exit for lack of wording from my head now
21:10<drac_boy>let me see if I can find it
21:17<drac_boy>hm I can't find it but flygon here's a "ugly duckling" for you http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/JRE-TEC-E5_omiya.JPG/640px-JRE-TEC-E5_omiya.JPG
21:17<drac_boy>QUACK!
21:18<Supercheese>hahahahahaha
21:18<Flygon>I've always been puzzled by how that train looks
21:18<Supercheese>I sincerely hope that design was chosen for aerodynamics and not aesthetics
21:18<drac_boy>Supercheese both japan and spain have highspeed emu that look like a duck ... enough said!
21:18<Supercheese>I thought emus looked more like ostriches ;)
21:18<drac_boy>supercheese..of course it was...the relationship to animals was NOT intentional
21:18<drac_boy>:p
21:18<Flygon>Then again, MU trains here never have big noses
21:19<drac_boy>flygon thats only because they're not running *very fast* :P
21:19<Flygon>The Comeng I showed broke 120 :p
21:19<Flygon>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/CityRail-Tangara-T33-ext.jpg And this's broke 130 :D
21:19<drac_boy>try 280-300kph :P
21:20<drac_boy>actually that E5 was designed for 320 but only ran 300 apparently
21:20<drac_boy>still very fast
21:20<Flygon>Apperantly the ducknose train in Japan doesn't go over 300km/h due to wear on the overhead wires
21:20<drac_boy>supercheese....I think they refer it to as a duck .. because they like to joke about quacking .. I dunno if ostriches really make any sounds anyway :)
21:21<Flygon>Here, the wires get worn out before the poles do. They need to be that thick :p
21:21<Flygon>(not that this stops the occasional pantograph-getting-stuck-in-wire in the middle of the busiest junctions in the system...)
21:22<drac_boy>heres the earlier 280kph one http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/JR_Central_Shinkansen_700.jpg/640px-JR_Central_Shinkansen_700.jpg
21:22<drac_boy>still a duck no less
21:22<drac_boy>you can't see it because of the shiny white paintjob but the nose is wider than the cab's front
21:23<drac_boy>the E5 makes it a lot more obvious tho :)
21:24<Flygon>Heh
21:25<drac_boy>I have actually thought about drawing an emu locomotive in the style of a 'ugly duckling' but then thought again ... I'll probably never be able to use it anyway
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21:27<Flygon>Isn't the 280km/h one in the 2CC set?
21:28<drac_boy>supercheese btw its more of an unoffical naming but you want to know what a "hammerhead" diesel locomotive is? :P
21:30<drac_boy>how about you flygon? :)
21:30<Flygon>Well
21:30<Flygon>We lack hammerheads
21:30<Flygon>But we do have dogbones :p
21:31<drac_boy>side view http://www.highlandsstationllc.com/images/Calloway/SOU3134SPENCER1972.JPG and from front http://www.cincyrails.com/NSvintage/RML-SOU-3135-01.jpg .. they almost always ran long hood first .. plus the flared top was from the extra wide radiators
21:32<drac_boy>so they were nicknamed after the hammerhead shark which did have some resemble :)
21:32*drac_boy wonders if supercheese would have any remark to that
21:33<Supercheese>Hammerheads are more horizontal...
21:33<drac_boy>well.. don't ask me .. I didn't make up the names :P
21:35<drac_boy>and why did they call this a Big Boy anyway? http://www.trainweb.org/jlsrr/bigboy/historical-pictures/full-pictures/up4015.jpg
21:35<drac_boy>like I mean .. why a Boy??? :P
21:35<drac_boy>weirdly enough the slight smaller version of it (3+3 coupled rather than 4+4) was sometimes called Big Sister ... eh
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21:37<drac_boy>at least interestingly the 4-4-2 being called Atlantic apparently had to do with Atlantic City. so that one isn't hard to understand
21:40<drac_boy>flygon about dogbones....I know its not same thing but I still don't understand the term 'to dogbag it'
21:40<drac_boy>the food is not for dog at all .. and paper bags (or styrofoam containers) have nothing to do with dogs neither ... confuses me a bit
21:40<Flygon>Sorry for any delays
21:41<Flygon>Currently sorting out some important irl stuff
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22:01<drac_boy>I'm going to bed, see you another time flygon :)
22:01<Flygon>Sleep well, mate
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