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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-22

---Logopened Sat Dec 22 00:00:21 2012
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00:08<Pikka>XY of the town
00:08<Pikka>word sized :)
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02:24<andythenorth>Pikka: lo
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02:43<Pikka>wut wut
02:44<andythenorth>done an industry set yet?
02:44<andythenorth>I could use a good one
02:44<andythenorth>there aren't any :P
02:44<Pikka>working on it or something :)
02:45*andythenorth drums fingers
02:45<andythenorth>won't get done if I disturb you I guess :P
03:04<Supercheese>Huh, my FIRS Fishing ground sprites are freaking out when the game is paused
03:06<Supercheese>Hmm, best way to quickly host an image...
03:07<Supercheese>I'll just post it as an attachment in the FIRS thread
03:10<Supercheese>Forgot I was using a modded version, testing with trunk
03:10<Supercheese>same problem
03:14<Supercheese>From what I can tell, it also happens in FIRS r3275
03:15<Supercheese>Oh wow what, it's stopped happening somehow?
03:16<Supercheese>Oh no, there it is
03:18<Supercheese>Yep, still happening
03:22<Supercheese>FWIW, game year is 2013
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03:22<Ammler>that looks like the question mark
03:24<andythenorth>yeah, I think I know what that is
03:24<Supercheese>Seems to happen when a new sprite is drawn for zooming
03:24<andythenorth>you could probably find it in a few other places if you looked
03:24<andythenorth>I think forest and quarry will also do it
03:24<andythenorth>actually...perhaps not
03:25<Supercheese>not seeing it on forest
03:25<Supercheese>or quarry
03:25<andythenorth>yeah, I know why that is
03:25<andythenorth>fishing harbour?
03:26<Supercheese>no, but I don't think the colors are cycling properly
03:26<Supercheese>lemme switch palette
03:27<Supercheese>Yeah, not the same problem with harbor, but the color cycles are incorrectly colored
03:27<Supercheese>cycling-colors, w/e
03:28<andythenorth>looks ok to me
03:29<Supercheese>pretty sure there are some blues that should not be static there
03:30<Supercheese>oh maybe those are not being REcolored properly?
03:30<Supercheese>rather than not cycling?
03:31<Supercheese>It just looks very out of place
03:31<Supercheese>grabbing screens
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03:33<Supercheese>post edited
03:33<Supercheese>there are some strange-looking blues around the small fishing vessels
03:36<andythenorth>broken company colour, thanks
03:36<andythenorth>didn't show for me, my harbour had blue cc
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04:23<Supercheese>Huh, strange, someone else reported the same Fishing ground bug before I did, but I cannot recall reading that post...
04:23<Supercheese>and I always read every post in that forum
04:24<Supercheese>must have missed it somehow
04:24<andythenorth>Supercheese: harbour pixels fixed
04:24<andythenorth>I missed that other post too :P
04:25<Supercheese>Maybe it somehow didn't trigger the unread-posts deal
04:25*Supercheese shrugs.
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04:33<andythenorth>lo Alberth
04:33<andythenorth>is RCT done yet then?
04:36<@Alberth>you're anxious to play it? :)
04:36<@Alberth>moin btw :)
04:36<@Alberth>well, since yesterday, you can build a shop, and 'open' it so it will cost you money. Unfortunately, it cannot sell anything yet :p
04:36<@Alberth>mostly because the guests do not have a 'buy stuff' concept :)
04:36<andythenorth>todo: implement capitalism
04:37<@Alberth>hmm, guests may not even have money yet ;)
04:38<@Alberth>luckily, the economy of freerct is going to be very simplistic :)
04:40<@Alberth>I am also doing some experiments to get a web service + client running that perform basic authentication, as a starting point for the translator service
04:40<FLHerne>Alberth: Will it have NewGRFs? :D
04:41<@Alberth>FLHerne: depending on what you expect the freerct newgrfs to contain, the answer is either "never" or "already available"
04:41<FLHerne>Ah, right :P
04:43<@Alberth>FLHerne: for example
04:43<@Alberth>current syntax is xml, I am quite sure that will change one day :)
04:46<@Alberth>andythenorth: I also had another try to extend newgrf for total-number-of-industries, but I got stuck at writing a newgrf that has a generic callback for that
04:47<andythenorth>that puzzles me too
04:47<andythenorth>needs frosch :P
04:47<@Alberth>or an nml author to extend nml :p
04:48<andythenorth>you need to add a cb?
04:48<andythenorth>oh, it has to be generic :P
04:48<andythenorth>cb is easy :P
04:49<andythenorth>generic, I don't know
04:49<@Alberth>I think you'll want a generic cb for this :)
04:49<@Alberth>nml does not support generic cb at all
04:50<andythenorth>I have no idea what feature that would be o_O
04:50<andythenorth>feature type: 'grf'
04:54<@Alberth>nah, feature type 'universe' is much nicer ;)
04:58<andythenorth>cb: adjust space time
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05:02<Pikka>doo de doo
05:02<andythenorth>do day
05:03<andythenorth>how does this nml thingy work
05:03<andythenorth>oh yes
05:03<andythenorth>here we go
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05:06<andythenorth>fishing grounds have bouys. should they be hidden or shown in transparent mode?
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05:13<andythenorth>Supercheese: I've fixed what I think causes the sprite bug with Fishing Grounds, but I wasn't able to replicate it with my version of ottd / FIRS
05:13<andythenorth>see if this fixes it for you?
05:13<andythenorth>I believe it was there, just couldn't reproduce myself :P
05:14<Supercheese>loading game...
05:14<Supercheese>appears to be fixed, loading another game
05:15<Supercheese>Yes, indeed appears to be fixed :)
05:15<andythenorth>should be fixed
05:15<Supercheese>you're welcome, and thank YOU sir
05:16<Supercheese>Oh cute, flashing fire-cycle pixels on some forklifts
05:16<andythenorth>amber beacons?
05:16<andythenorth>or a bug?
05:16<Supercheese>I dunno, did you intend for fire-cycle pixels on Aluminium plant forklifts?
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05:17<Supercheese>They could indeed be beacons
05:17<andythenorth>yeah, they're beacons
05:17<Supercheese>Yep, cute
05:17<Supercheese>Ooh, other animations
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05:18<andythenorth>new FIRS has quite a few more animations, mostly smoke and stuff
05:18<Supercheese>Rolling cement plant tubes :D
05:18<andythenorth>yeah, they were a PITA to draw ;)
05:18<Supercheese>They're very snazzy
05:18<andythenorth>new FIRS has more date sensitive graphics too
05:20<Supercheese>Hehe, smoke puff
05:20<Supercheese>Do you have to manually specify each frame, or is there a "trigger smoke puff here" industry option?
05:21*Supercheese checks grfspecs
05:21<andythenorth>manually specify
05:21<andythenorth>but it's a template
05:21<andythenorth>write once, use it wherever
05:22<andythenorth>nml makes it easy
05:23<Supercheese> :D
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05:23<Supercheese>I still doesn't get preprocessor macros, though :S
05:23<Supercheese>don't *
05:23<Supercheese>(I started typing that as a /me , derp)
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05:25<andythenorth>I don't actually use that template, it's a different one ;)
05:25<andythenorth>but same result
05:25<Supercheese>Oh, hmm
05:26<Supercheese>Anyway, I've been (slowly) working on a newobjects set, primarily because I've some neat circling seagulls that will go very well with fishing grounds and harbors
05:26<andythenorth>easy to animate
05:26<Supercheese>I also pilliag- I mean, borrowed some code from the wind turbines to make the job even easier, and pseudorandom
05:27<Supercheese>Still not sure what "height" to make the birds fly at, though
05:27<Supercheese>OTTD scale being so insane :S
05:28<andythenorth>you need to probably keep them within tile boundary
05:28<andythenorth>to avoid strange effects
05:28<Supercheese>The "small" flock fits nicely within the tile
05:28<Supercheese>the "large" flock less so, but that's not coded yet
05:29<andythenorth>multiple tiles :P
05:29<Supercheese>I'd prefer to keep the blockage to a minimum, since ships can't traverse objects
05:30<Supercheese>Ugh, I'll never finish coding those, not with updates to NewStations, UKRS, and FIRS
05:30<Supercheese>and all the recent trunk commits too
05:31<andythenorth>playing is seriously over-rated
05:31<Supercheese>All code and no play makes Jack a dull developer
05:32<Pikka>andythenorth: are FISH getting auto-refitting or something?
05:32<Supercheese>Nightlies already have IIRC
05:33<andythenorth>Pikka: yeah
05:33<andythenorth>that was a pain in the arse :P
05:33<andythenorth>I hate auto-refit :)
05:33<Supercheese>but it's extremely appreciated :)
05:35<andythenorth>Pikka: also I've got buckets of steam ship sprites from DanMacK and Coxx
05:36<andythenorth>so many, I'm confused :P
05:37<@Terkhen>good morning
05:37<Supercheese>Too bad you can't give steam ships visual_effect steam puffs :(
05:38<andythenorth>orly :(
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05:39<Supercheese>whah, huge link
05:39<andythenorth>I'm *definitely* going to click that
05:39<andythenorth>can't possibly be spam
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05:50<Supercheese>All right, enough spamming
05:50<andythenorth>who's got op?
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06:07-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*maravilla@*] by peter1138
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06:10<andythenorth>so what shall I do about this truck newgrf?
06:11<andythenorth>rigid trucks: 1 model per body type
06:11<andythenorth>articulated trucks, one model, any trailer type, with autorefit allowed at stations?
06:12<andythenorth>+ no refitting to different number of trailers
06:12<Supercheese>a good question
06:15<Supercheese>I'll sleep on it :P
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06:35<@peter1138>urgh, how annoying, gimp refuses to save in anything other than xcf
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06:36<@peter1138>now you have to go to a separate "export" window... :S
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06:39<@peter1138>General Error
06:39<@peter1138>You are not allowed to access this file.
06:39<@peter1138>Please notify the board administrator or webmaster:
06:39<@peter1138>nice :S
06:39<@peter1138>well, it posted anyway
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07:14<Zuu>Is there a guide on how to re-build openttd.grf? I'm standing in trunk root and do: grfcodec -e openttd.grf media/extra_grf; cp openttd.grf bin/baseset
07:14<Zuu>The result is a broken openttd.grf with grfcodec 6.0.1.
07:14<Zuu>(using windows and a hg checkout of trunk)
07:15<Zuu>At the moment I've reverted all input files *.nfo and *.png to trunk state as to make sure I have't made any wrong changes myself.
07:16<Zuu>This is the output of grfcodec:
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07:18<@Alberth>maybe you need a trunk version of grfcodec for that?
07:18<@Alberth>/me tries
07:21*Zuu found the makefile for building openttd.grf. it looks a bit too complex to follow by hand.
07:25<@Alberth>yeah, you don't want to do that :)
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07:28<@Alberth>trunk grfcodec seems to rebuild the openttd.grf, but with modifications compared to the version stored in openttd trunk
07:28<Zuu>I'm currently fetching the needed stuff to build it in linux instead.
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07:46<Zuu>Is there a way to call the recepie to build openttd.grf without doing maike maintaine-clean; make?
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08:03<@Alberth>rm openttd.grf?
08:03<@Alberth>or 'touch' at least one of the source files (except I don't know which files that are)
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08:05<+michi_cc>'touch media/extra_grf/openttd.nfo' should do it I guess
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08:08<Zuu>ok, I now have to figure out why just adding a line in openttdgui.nfo is not enough to add a new sprite to openttdgui.png (apart from drawing it)
08:09<Zuu>At least it builds fine without my modifications now. :-)
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08:11<Zuu>Hmm, removing one line also make compilation fail, so one of the hex nums at the start is probably number of sprites. :-)
08:12*Zuu fonud the right hex num to increase one step. :-)
08:14<andythenorth>I need to make a new type of farm
08:14<andythenorth>grain and livestock
08:14<andythenorth>for basic economies
08:15<@Alberth>that's a normal type of farm in the UK ?
08:17<andythenorth>normal in default TTD
08:17<andythenorth>in temperate iirc
08:18<Flygon>We need an Australian industries set
08:18<@Alberth>I know, but for some reason I suddenly wondered that is the case :)
08:18<Flygon>So that you can farm Kangaroo
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08:19<Flygon>And then you ship beer to the same factory...
08:19<Flygon>And then you can ship out Beer Soaked 'roo Meat
08:20<KenjiE20>Alberth: I think we have a pretty even split between mixed and high intensity single farms
08:20<Flygon>A favorite amoung Russians AND Australians :D
08:20<@Alberth>Flygon: make an australian economy for firs
08:21<Flygon>God, it'd be like
08:21<Flygon>Full of rocks
08:21<Flygon>There's only two things currently in the Australian economy
08:21<Flygon>Coal and Ore, and Fiber Optic cabling
08:21<Flygon>Yes, that's two things
08:22<@Alberth>for the latter you definitely need 12 tile freight trains :p
08:22<@Alberth>such long cables :)
08:23<Flygon>You can store them in reels :P
08:23<Flygon>Though, a more advanced infrastructure style of OpenTTD would be interesting
08:23<Flygon>As an optional thing, mind you
08:24<Flygon>eg. lay out copper cabling for overhead and signalling... ect
08:24<@Alberth>sounds more something for a train simulator
08:24<Flygon>OpenTTD basically is one
08:24<Flygon>Almost everything that comes out is Train related
08:25<@Alberth>no, openttd is a transport company simulation
08:25<Flygon>I wasn't denying that, but the community seems to love the foam :p
08:25<@Alberth>perhaps a bit too much "train transport" though
08:26<Flygon>Though, what annoys me most, is the lack of Australian Tram GRF D:
08:26<Flygon>Melbourne IS the Southern Hemisphere's Tram capitol, afterall
08:28<Flygon>I also have my own laziness to blame
08:28<Flygon> grammar and spelling appears to be shooting itself in the hand today
08:31<andythenorth>Flygon: I am hoping that the australian economy also includes 'web apps' :P
08:31<andythenorth>for personal reasons
08:32<andythenorth>FIRS australian economy: sheep station, cattle station, meat packer, brewery, cane plantation, sugar mill, mines, import / export docks
08:32*Alberth has a vison of a wagon for bits
08:33<Zuu>Does grfcodec care about any other pixles than those defined by the sprite rectangle?
08:33<@Alberth>textile too (with all the sheep)
08:34<andythenorth>to China, India, Vietnam etc
08:34<andythenorth>I am going to start implementing these FIRS economies:
08:34<@Alberth>exported as raw wool thus :)
08:35<andythenorth>came from DanMacK not me
08:35<Flygon>andythenorth: Australia's economy stopped being interesting past 1985ish
08:35<Zuu>My new sprite doesn't show up in OpenTTD. However, if I use an existing sprite number instead of my new one in the ny entry in table/sprites.h, then it show up. I can also modify existing sprites in the .png and have them change appearance in-game. :-s
08:36<Flygon>When we stopped putting amazing tarrifs on any import
08:36<Flygon>Before then, Australia had a HUGE manufacturing industry
08:37<Flygon>Cars, Trains, Trucks, Agricultural Equipment, ...basically, we manufactured a lot
08:37<Flygon>Now all we make of note is trains
08:37<@Alberth>andythenorth: no eng supplies to the oil industry in tropic?
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08:39<Flygon>But, yeah, andythenorth, I wouldn't trust Australia with anything IT related
08:40<Flygon>And I say that as an Australian
08:40<Flygon>Everyone that makes an IT enterprise here, ends up moving it to California, or Pheonix, Arizona...
08:40<Zuu>My changes are here: (here I only add a new sprite to .png and .nfo and tries to alter the fast forward button to use it) The new sprite is at 350,440 in openttdgui.png and is 18x18 pixles
08:40<andythenorth>Flygon: I'm selling to AU from UK o_O
08:41<Flygon>Australians are buying web apps from the UK?
08:41<andythenorth>we'll see
08:41<Flygon>That's no surprise
08:41<Flygon>I said we're terrible at producing stuff (partially due to a tough local market)
08:41<Flygon>Not terrible at dragging stuff from overseas
08:42<@Alberth>static const uint16 OPENTTD_SPRITE_COUNT = 168; <-- perhaps also increment this number? :p
08:43<@Alberth>Zuu: ^^
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08:44<@Alberth>of course it is, you leave too fast Wolf :p
08:44<Zuu>Alberth: might be useful too. :-) I didn't find any guide on what steps to follow so it was all trial and error :-)
08:48<andythenorth>closing primary industries - anybody think of a valid mechanic?
08:48<andythenorth>production is static, so can't use falling production to do it
08:49<@Alberth>random seems fine to me
08:50<@Alberth>closing while the player provides transport services is perhaps another matter
08:51<andythenorth>secondaries close if no cargo is transported 'for a long time'
08:51<andythenorth>dunno how long :P
08:51<andythenorth>could use the same mechanic, maybe user configurable 5 | 10 | 25 | 50 | 100 years
08:52<@Alberth>with a bit of random to prevent them all closing at the same time, I hope :p
08:52<andythenorth>I'd use the random prod. change cb
08:52<andythenorth>relies on OTTD that way
08:53<andythenorth>although I don't really understand when it's called, nor how smooth / original economy setting affects it
08:53<andythenorth>where's all the frosch today? :)
08:53<@Alberth>newgrf doesn't do smooth afaik
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08:56<Zuu>Ah, nice - so now I got a story button in the main menu. Now I only need to implement the story window :-D
08:56<andythenorth>I so hate those economy settings :P
08:57<andythenorth>I never understand how they interact with newgrf, or if I need to test both of them
08:57<andythenorth>delegate it to economy plugins :P
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10:29<andythenorth>how do I open the new cargo chains display?
10:30<andythenorth>need to check for any broken chains in my new economy
10:30<frosch123>from the menu
10:30<frosch123>industry menu
10:31<@Alberth>frosch was faster :)
10:31<andythenorth>maybe I have an old OTTD in use :P
10:31<andythenorth>my bad
10:32<@Alberth>yay, a bottle web server running with basic authentication, now I just need to add a translation service :p
10:33<andythenorth>got any browser views yet?
10:33<andythenorth>might not be called that in bottle
10:34<@Alberth>nope, just a web page containing the word "secret" :p
10:35<frosch123>ow, now you leaked it
10:35<@Alberth>nah, it was already published at the Internet :)
10:35<andythenorth>why don't FIRS hotels accept mail?
10:35<andythenorth>I guess hotel guests can use the phone :P
10:36<@Alberth>its guests try to find peace and quiet without mail
10:36<@Alberth>you bring phones to the hotel? ;p
10:37<andythenorth>no wires in OTTD
10:37<andythenorth>maybe the radio tower is a phone mast?
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10:40<frosch123>nah, it's just a heap of metal to annoy railroad companies
10:40<andythenorth>that industry chain view is mighty useful
10:40<frosch123>it has no other purpose
10:40<andythenorth>annoys airport tycoons
10:41<frosch123>the are some kind of eiffel tower
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10:43<drac_boy>how doing andythenorth?
10:43<drac_boy>still having more things to fix? :)
10:44<andythenorth>^ contains a new Temperate Basic economy
10:44<andythenorth>if anyone wants to check it for broken chains....
10:45<drac_boy>no new industry or anything..just basically the vectors choosed?
10:48<drac_boy>either way the 18+19 you picked...seem a little small compared to others but it looks nice still
10:50<andythenorth>small is the point
10:50<drac_boy>thats why I said it still looked nice
10:53<drac_boy>you still working on that thing with python? or what was it again I forgot
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11:00<drac_boy>hows that going anyway?
11:02<andythenorth>Dan's plan for FIRS Arctic Basic economy includes a power station
11:02<andythenorth>should I add one?
11:02<andythenorth>there's no other destination for coal
11:03<drac_boy>well ... of course? :)
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11:17<andythenorth>don't add cargos to the game via a running newgrf :P
11:17<drac_boy>heh heh
11:18<andythenorth>alcohol in Basic Arctic?
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11:21<@Terkhen>sounds basic to me :P
11:21<drac_boy>heh heh
11:22<drac_boy>funny enough I was planning on a wheat>food brewery industry idea :)
11:29<andythenorth>doom is too easy on ultra-violence
11:29<andythenorth>but way too hard on nightmare
11:42<andythenorth>done a Basic Arctic economy too
11:51<andythenorth>don't all applaud at once :P
11:55<@peter1138>yay \o/
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12:02<drac_boy>hmm interestijng
12:03<drac_boy>I wonder how far 50KVAC electrification can run for between substations
12:03<drac_boy>because I just noticed certain south africa railway locomotives are for 50KV
12:03<drac_boy>thats quite high voltage
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12:09<drac_boy>and apparently SAR just orders more or less the same units over and over but give them a new class each time :-s
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12:43<@peter1138>higher voltage allows for longer distance, wonder what difference it makes
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12:44<drac_boy>peter1138 actually I think I may have found out why from one particular class's details
12:45<drac_boy>super-long ore trains (think alike to the ones in australia) over long empty landscape ... and the locomotive are wired in a way that they can work between 20K to 55K voltage ... so I guess they have very few substations placed very far apart
12:47<@peter1138>built to accomodate a massive loss that would normally be unacceptable? nice
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13:17<@Alberth>peter1138: for non-alternating current (I don't know the answer for alternating current), the power delivered P = U * I (voltage times current). Higher U thus means lower I. The loss over the wire P = I * I * R (with I the current, and R the physical resistance). Doubling the voltage thus means 1/4 of the loss.
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24838 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2012-12-22 18:45:42 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>belarusian - 1 changes by KorneySan
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 1 changes by Bassals
13:45<@DorpsGek>croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 1 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>swedish - 5 changes by Joel_A
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13:57<andythenorth>Tropic Basic economy done
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14:05<andythenorth>Alberth: Terkhen FIRS lang updates - want to translate recent changes ?
14:05<@Terkhen>andythenorth: sure :O
14:05<andythenorth>I'm probably going to release 0.8.0 soon
14:05<@Terkhen>how much time do I have?
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14:05<andythenorth>at least until tomorrow
14:05<andythenorth>not many changes
14:05<@Terkhen>which translates to "an hour" :P
14:05<@Terkhen>okay :)
14:05<@Terkhen>I'm on to it
14:06*Terkhen won't be around tomorrow
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14:42<@Terkhen>andythenorth: check STR_PARAM_DESC_ECONOMIES
14:42<@Terkhen>it says that only one economy is available
14:43<andythenorth>oops :)
14:43<andythenorth>I'll fix that
14:45<@Terkhen>ok :)
14:51<@Terkhen>ok :)
14:54<Zuu>Oh, now I can browse pages in the story book. Both using prev/next and a drop down for jumping directly to a page. Now I can move on to actually drawing the page content. :-)
14:54*andythenorth -> food
14:56<Zuu>Currently only the title is visible :-)
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15:06*Alberth gives a " " to andythenorth for the STR_FUND_SUGARCANE_PLANTATION line
15:08<@Terkhen>andythenorth: isn't "3t per 8 crates manufacturing supplies delivered" missing an "a"?
15:08<@Terkhen>the same happens with all of those strings
15:09<@Alberth>perhaps add "of" ?
15:10<@Terkhen>oh, true, of :P
15:15<@Alberth>andythenorth: pushed dutch updates
15:15<Zuu>andythenorth: <--- story book without content
15:15<Zuu>(I pushed down the toolbar button further down in the patch queue so it is not visible currently)
15:15*Alberth feels very welcome
15:16<Zuu>Obviously the resize button is a bit wrong, but I haven't really decided if I want to move the prev/next buttons to the top or not yet.
15:17<Zuu>Or draw the title in the panel in a large font and push down the page selector to the bottom.
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15:31<@Alberth>I like the prev/next buttons at the bottom, but yeah, not something to worry about now :)
15:36<V453000>wtf is OpenTTD going to have a story? :DDDDDDDDDD
15:37<frosch123>V453000: yes, your trains will be able to gain experience
15:37<frosch123>which makes them accerlate better
15:37<frosch123>you will also be able to purchase special booster items in our online store
15:39<andythenorth>can I have badges?
15:40<andythenorth>lang file unicode issues
15:40<andythenorth>never sure what to do about those
15:40<andythenorth> non-utf8 characters
15:41<Rubidium>seems you don't deserve your code page conversion patch yet
15:41<andythenorth>setting the encoding seems to fix it
15:41<andythenorth>stupid OS X
15:41<andythenorth>defaults to Mac Western Roman
15:42<frosch123>andythenorth: you can also purchase the special "unicorn" disaster
15:43<frosch123>train explodes with fireball in unicorn collission
15:45<V453000>I hope for the train-leaving-trail-on-the-tracks-behind-them DLC
15:45<V453000>so slugs could leave slime behind
15:46<V453000>requested feature 2010
15:47<@Alberth>build a very long train that also has slime graphics?
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15:49<V453000>he resigned
15:59<Zuu>Or require the slug engine to have X slime wagons at the end
16:00<Zuu><V453000> wtf is OpenTTD going to have a story? :DDDDDDDDDD <---- The beginner tutorial already got something like that, but it is somewhat fragile.
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16:02<drac_boy>been a while since I looked this up that I've forgotten. do you use the maximum or continous tractive figure for newgrfs?
16:04<V453000>longer vehicles are ass for the slime trail as they take up signal space :/
16:04<frosch123>non-slimy vehicles would fall of the track anyway
16:05<V453000>evolutionary natural selection
16:05<V453000>also, you usually dont mix trains with slugs :P
16:06<Zuu>It would be interesting if slugs could run close to each other but other tranis would need to keep a longer distance to the slug ahead.
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16:08<frosch123>hmm, egrvts should introduce horse trams with unicorns instead of horses: maybe date 2100, max speed 500?
16:08<Supercheese>Pegasi aircraft
16:08<Supercheese>or wait, is that 4th declension...
16:09<drac_boy>anyone? :->
16:09<frosch123>drac_boy: vehicles always accelerate the same
16:09<V453000>I am introducing Chameleon train class since NUTS 0.4.0 :P close
16:09<frosch123>there is no fuel, or heating
16:09<Supercheese>Aircraft can have a specified acceleration, no?
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16:13<drac_boy>frosch123 that still doesn't help, should I use eg 200kN starting or 120kN otherwise for a locomotive? :P
16:14<@Terkhen>andythenorth: is "3t per 8 crates manufacturing supplies delivered" missing an "of"?
16:15<@Terkhen>I don't want to commit my translation to get fake "this string got changed" messages later :P
16:15<frosch123>drac_boy: "should" :p
16:15<andythenorth>might read better with 'of'
16:15<andythenorth>makes sense without
16:15<andythenorth>I'm leaving it without
16:15<frosch123>drac_boy: no idea, try to use "starting" for the "max te" property and "continuous" for the "power" property?
16:15<andythenorth>for compactness
16:15<@Terkhen>ok :)
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>to me as a non-native speaker it feels wrong without
16:16<Supercheese>As a native speaker, it feels fine either way
16:16<Supercheese>but yeah, it is more proper to have an 'of', though not necessary
16:16<frosch123>drac_boy: maybe you should just try ingame :)
16:17<frosch123>drac_boy: realistic values are never good for gameplay :p
16:17<drac_boy>I would had gone with '8 crates from 3t of ____' andythenorth :p
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16:18<Supercheese>3t from 8 crates...?
16:18<Supercheese>wait, is the 3 from the 8, or the 8 from the 3 :S
16:18<@Terkhen>andythenorth: which was the URL for pushing?
16:19<drac_boy>frosch123 well this is supposed to be based after realistic trains .. so a 600hp @ 31t locomotive doing 500kN just is completely wrong :)
16:19<V453000>hm, is there any way to make an articulated train get 65k power?
16:19<V453000>instead of the 32k?
16:19<drac_boy>more like maybe 50-200kN at the best
16:20<drac_boy>V453000 powered wagon callback for the locomotive? I know I saw it somewhere on newgrf wiki - just forgot the exact name now
16:20<drac_boy>eg loco alone could be 600hp but each wagon (or less) added would add more hp
16:20<V453000>the engine alone without wagons
16:20<drac_boy>or thats what I recall reading
16:20<frosch123>V453000: no, 32k is max
16:21<V453000>alright thanks, powered wagons then indeed
16:21<V453000>mono intercity 4 has max stats >:(
16:21<frosch123>does 32k vs. 64k make a difference? :p
16:21<V453000>of course
16:21<@Terkhen>andythenorth: spanish translation pushed :)
16:21<@Terkhen>thanks :P
16:23<frosch123>V453000: ok, you are lucky, ottd uses uint32 internally
16:23<V453000>cant say I know what that means :D
16:24<frosch123>that the total power sum of a train is only limited at 4 billion
16:24*andythenorth -> bed bed bed
16:24<andythenorth>good night
16:24<V453000>:D well I know that the total power can be high :P
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16:26<drac_boy>bye andythenorth
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16:27<V453000>Only wagons with a livery override for this engine will add power <--- what :d
16:27<V453000>is that true?
16:27<V453000>I thought livery override is no-no to be used
16:27<V453000>all of my express wagons use switches with vehicle_type_id check
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16:30<andythenorth>some kind of 'contraband' cargo?
16:30<andythenorth>coxx is planning to draw a fast warship
16:30<andythenorth>it needs a cargo :P
16:30<frosch123>V453000: livery-override is as deprecated as wagon power :p
16:30<Supercheese>Contraband sounds good
16:30<Supercheese>Code some coast guard cutters to chase after it
16:31<@Terkhen>good morning andythenorth
16:31<V453000>so if I want more power for my intercity train I ... have no way how to get it?
16:31<andythenorth> it was a short nap
16:33<andythenorth>wish the ship menu showed more of the ship :P
16:33<andythenorth>maybe I should just patch nml to support setx
16:33<Supercheese>Why can't it?
16:34<Supercheese>Is a large purchase sprite forcibly truncated?
16:34<andythenorth>yes and no
16:34<andythenorth>in that order
16:35<Supercheese>If text overlap is a problem, can't you just add whitespace to the front of the vehicle name?
16:35<Zuu>Is it forbidden to switch font-size in OpenTTD strings on other places than on first non-white character after a line break?
16:36<Rubidium>effectively I think it is
16:36<Zuu>If not, you could make interesting things by switching font size in the middle of a line that is dawn using mult-line draw :-)
16:36<frosch123>Zuu: first of all there is no string code to switch to normal size :p
16:36<Zuu>at line break it basically does: y += current_size
16:36<Zuu>frosch123: Oh :-)
16:37<frosch123>and yes, all strings have consistent font size
16:37<andythenorth>spaces are an unreliable method
16:37<andythenorth>tried that already :P
16:37<frosch123>andythenorth: use ideographic spaces :p
16:37<andythenorth>smells bad
16:37<andythenorth>I should just use setx
16:37<frosch123>just review eddi's patch maybe?
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16:38<andythenorth>I'm not competent :)
16:38<andythenorth>it works though
16:38<andythenorth>I tested it
16:38<andythenorth>didn't test with RTL or 'odd' character sets
16:39<Rubidium>don't think any actual checks are done though
16:39<bootmii>Somebody include a Bidi implementation!
16:40<Zuu>It appears that noone have yet implemented a parameter to let DrawStringMultiLine skip n lines. Eg. so that you can have a multi-line text with a width restriction (=> no horizontal scroll bar) and have a vertical scroll bar. However, it does seem quite trivial to add a such parameter as the method already can skip lines. I just doesn't expose it that way.
16:41<Zuu>The Readme viewer etc. that LordAro created split the raw strings into one string per line already in the viewer code.
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>"i tested it" - "but not with any interesting or corner cases" :p
16:43<Rubidium>bootmii: why?
16:44<bootmii>or some other way to display bidirectional text
16:44<Rubidium>is the current method not enough?
16:48<frosch123>Zuu: check the textfile view :)
16:49<Zuu>frosch123: It split the lines probably using \n and/or \r and just call DrawString.
16:49<frosch123>scrolling text is done by creating a clipping area and then drawing text starting at negative positions
16:50<frosch123>Zuu: i would think it splits the lines because of ottd 512 byte string limit
16:50<frosch123>but yeah, textedit was a wrong example for scrolling text
16:50<frosch123>newsticker is only horizontal
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>the news ticker needs to be non-blocking for real news
16:52<Zuu>So extending DrawStringMultiLine to allow specifying to skip n lines is the wrong way to go?
16:52<frosch123>imo yes, as you would also need a method to get the number of lines, which might change when resizing or whatever
16:53<Zuu>There is already a method to get the number of lines.
16:53<frosch123>so, imo pixel-based scrolling of the string bounding box might be nicer
16:53<frosch123>oh, what is it used for?
16:55<Zuu>It is mostly used as input for computing the pixel height of (multi-line) strings.
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16:57<Zuu>FormatStringLinebreaks is the method
16:57<frosch123>that is only used by the drawing code
16:57<bootmii>Then use it in some other code!
16:57<frosch123>oh, and the chat uses it for input validation
16:57<frosch123>how fancy :p
16:59<Rubidium>chat input or the stuff coming from the network?
16:59-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@] has quit [Quit: DANGER is OFFLINE DANGER]
17:00<frosch123>in inserts linebreaks into long messages
17:01<frosch123>hmm, actually, it does that on receiving
17:01<frosch123>well, would also not make a lot of sense to use the screen with of the sender :p
17:09<@Terkhen>good night
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18:05<+michi_cc>Isn't really perfect though, as it only works nice with old GRFs if the sprites are left-aligned instead of being centered as they are now.
18:06<frosch123>there is some random commented line in the middle
18:06<frosch123> // int sprite_x = (rtl ? r - sprite_width / 2 : l + sprite_width / 2) - 1;
18:07<+michi_cc>With centered sprites some GRFs (2ccSet especially) totally overlap with the text. Left aligned, almost everything works (except some odd GRFs like Sailing Ships 0.62 that uses both spaces and heaps of useless blue in the sprites).
18:07<+michi_cc>That's for centered/left aligned, depending on which you select.
18:08<+michi_cc>Should that be commited, it will only have on option of course.
18:09<frosch123>is there some way to make the left/right positioning the same for all sprites of at least one grf
18:09<+michi_cc>Anyway, Sailing Ships can be ignored, it's totally broken in RTL (in unmodified trunk) as well .
18:09<frosch123>it would be nice if it is ensured that those extra info columns of 2cc or nuts remain aligned
18:10<frosch123>maybe all reference point could be aligned
18:10<frosch123>so left/right offset is the max over all sprites
18:10<frosch123>instead of different positions per sprite
18:10<+michi_cc>Those columns are only aligned if the sprite is draw centered, and then it overlaps the text.
18:11<frosch123>why should that be the case?
18:12<frosch123>makes no sense to me
18:12<frosch123>the patch looks like it uses only the sprite width
18:12<frosch123>imo it should also use the reference point
18:13<frosch123>so, instead of a single width there would be extend_left and extent_right
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>is that based on my patch?
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>i think mine was slightly broken with 2ccSet
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>as it handled dualheaded engines very crudely
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18:31<drac_boy>any of you know of any good site listing historic rail classification systems? I already have the one used in german, swiss, and japan. just curious about looking at more examples tho
18:34<swissfan91>One for the UK shouldn't be too hard to find.
18:36<drac_boy>hmm uk....
18:36<swissfan91>There are a lot of people that know an awful lot about the UK rail network on the forums!
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>there's a french one as well
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18:39<Eddi|zuHause>also there are wikipedia pages about almost every major german railway how they classified their engines
18:40<drac_boy>yeah I got a lot from the germans indeed
18:40<drac_boy>some of these multiply class letters are interesting
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>what do you mean?
18:48<drac_boy>well how about eg OOmt which would had meant an open wagon with 30+ ton capacity and self-discharged (mind you I find picture searches for rail wagons rather weak so I don't know if this particular classification was for real too)
18:49<drac_boy>germans sure didn't leave anything missing..if you couldn't find some way to classify it .. you always could put it under the '..S' letter which is for a special wagon apparently
18:49<drac_boy>anyway I better not talk too much about this...I'll only say they interest me
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18:53<Eddi|zuHause>OO not only meant open wagon, but also 4 axles
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what you mean with "..S"
18:54<drac_boy>oh...sorry I had thought I read it as of being more than two axles ... oh well don't worry about it
18:55<drac_boy>well thats all it said last I checked the website '..S' is just "special wagon" ... no further descriptions given
18:55<drac_boy>on the other hand 'S..' is for special passenger wagon
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>the small letter "s" means "schnell" [fast[, and the capital letter "S" means "Salon" [luxorious wagon]
18:55<drac_boy> probably lost something in translation :|
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have the scheme fully memorized, might very well be that there was a "..S"
18:56<drac_boy>the V letter and the other letters after that was a nice way to know exactly what kind of animals could be given without having to recheck
18:59<drac_boy>VO single-deck for cattle or Vg (Veg earlier on) for small things like geese
19:00<drac_boy>last I checked the few old livestock wagons in usa .. they had no way to tell which was for cow or sheep except for spotting the mid-deck floor .. unless someone wrote down the wagon numbers
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>but these are post-unification systems, each of the "ancient" companies had their own classification schemes
19:01<drac_boy>yeah thats true... the pre-drg systems were a bit different
19:01<drac_boy>especially the one listed for prussia
19:01<drac_boy>thats why a lot of the 2nd (and further) letters seem to have changed during the 1920-1950 period on german railways
19:02<drac_boy>eg what would had been 'g' before 1943 is now 'k' afterward
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19:03<Eddi|zuHause>some things just became obsolete
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19:04<drac_boy>I still have to look up a translation but I'm not too sure why an cab car for electric train could be classified as either ES or EB
19:04<drac_boy>both seem to mean the same thing
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>ES is a wagon with a cab, EB is without cab
19:06<drac_boy>oh you mean like an emu without cab located at one end? or am I wrong
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. berlin S-Bahn sets came in ET+ES and ET+EB variations
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>which means the ET+ES one can go in both directions as a single unit, but the ET+EB one must be combined with another unit backwards to be fully operational both ways
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>so you must have (ET+EB)+(EB+ET) or (ET+EB)+(ET+ES) or somesuch
19:08<drac_boy>oh right so thats like as in |cab----||----cab| verus |cab-----||------| just to simplify this a bit?
19:08<+michi_cc>It's not aligning different NewGRFs to each other as they all have differently aligned centers, but each NewGRF is consistent in itself.
19:09<drac_boy>thanks...yeah I can see why they'll need two sets back to back for the latter .. or even just one of both in proper direction
19:09<+michi_cc>Oh, reload please, forgot a left -> right for RTL.
19:09<frosch123>hmm, multiheaded
19:09<frosch123>i would assume there is a fixed offset between the two heads
19:10<frosch123>so width += does not sound right
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the typical usage scenario is two to four sets anyway
19:10<Zuu>Story window with content: :-)
19:10<drac_boy>mm yeah I know japan had the same with some of their motors which were built to be used in sets pretty much
19:10<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause I'm sure I got this right but anyway one other thing...
19:11<drac_boy>ETA is as in ... E for electric .. T for that its a railcar (english term) .. A for that its battery powered
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>"Akkumulator" is the typical german name for a rechargable battery
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>(usually abbreviated to "Akku")
19:14<drac_boy>mm thanks for the help with that ES/EB classification tho
19:14*drac_boy needs to go for a while now tho :|
19:14<drac_boy>have fun anyway :)
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19:18<frosch123>michi_cc: you might also want to add SA_STRIP to the engine name drawing now :)
19:18<frosch123>hmm, you did, why does it not work in my compile
19:18<+michi_cc>There are a few NewGRF using spaces for alignment.
19:19<frosch123>V453000: that is really stupid!
19:19<V453000>im innocent!
19:19<frosch123>are you adding spaces in front of vehicle names to allow bigger purchase sprites?
19:20<frosch123>see, that is stupid
19:20<frosch123>it depends on the fontsize
19:20<frosch123>and ottd has no chance to fix it
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19:21<frosch123>ottd can do nothing but break nuts
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>you CRACK nuts, not break them :p
19:22<V453000>well I assume I can do nothing else than keep the spaces or remove larger sprites
19:22<V453000>so ye
19:22<+michi_cc>frosch123: Fixed multihead:
19:23<+michi_cc>V453000: The old way would have been to use SETX (which NML doesn't allow).
19:25<frosch123>michi_cc: maybe TRAININFO_DEFAULT_VEHICLE_WIDTH instead of the 29?
19:26<+michi_cc>I can also assume you never switched your OpenTTD to arabic language either.
19:26<+michi_cc>frosch123: Yes, I just didn't know we had that constant :)
19:27<V453000>uhmmm so suggestions frosch? :D
19:27<frosch123>V453000: update nuts after michi committed, and never bother again
19:29<frosch123>michi_cc: diff looks nice :)
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19:31<+michi_cc>Hopefully final version:
19:32<V453000>update how? :D
19:32<frosch123>remove the spaces
19:32<V453000>like with some extra value somewhere?
19:32<V453000>only that?
19:32<V453000>uhm but that will still apply only for trunk wont it
19:32<frosch123>michi_cc: \o/
19:32<+michi_cc>The only really troublesome NewGRF I could find was Sailing Ships 0.62 as its sprites have heaps of unnecessary padding, which messes up the layout.
19:33<frosch123>the more noticeable it is, the more likely to be fixed :p
19:34<+michi_cc>V453000: Your GRF is already broken the moment someone uses a custom FreeType font or a RTL language (i.e. everything without latin letters).
19:34<V453000>does that apply even when nuts isnt translated in any language? :d
19:35<+michi_cc>Just make a new game, open the train purchase list and select Arabic as language in the game options.
19:36<V453000>LOL it even is from the right
19:36<V453000>well honestly, too bad; people can always play the game in english
19:37<V453000>I havent even gotten a report about that yet
19:37<+michi_cc>It's a bit hard if you're not speaking English...
19:37<V453000>:DDD this is funny thought
19:37<V453000>why is EVERYTHING reversed? :D
19:38<V453000>in arabic
19:38<V453000>I didnt talk english when I started playing openttd either
19:38<+michi_cc>Because the reading direction of arabic is right-to-left, and OpenTTD is properly internationalized and localized.
19:39<V453000>yeah but when all the icons of everything and yes/no and everything is reversed it just looks funny
19:39<V453000>I would have expected only text :)
19:39<frosch123>V453000: even the fast forward is mirrored
19:39<frosch123>and "play" in music gui (if you ever found that one)
19:40<V453000>but yeah .. honestly they just either wont play with NUTS for now, or they switch to english
19:40<V453000>I will update it when the feature goes to stable
19:40<+michi_cc>The new commit will in fact unbreak it for arabic but break it for english :)
19:40<V453000>I expect that
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19:41<V453000>stilll, on trunk I have easy means to tell the people what is going on, on stable I dont
19:41<+michi_cc>Well, somewhat break it, you'll just have unnecessary blank space.
19:41<V453000>since trunk is only our servers
19:42<frosch123>michi_cc: maybe the space between icon and text could be a bit bigger
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19:42<frosch123>FRAMERECT_LEFT/RIGHT is a bit few
19:42<frosch123>maybe better WD_FRAMETEXT_LEFT
19:45<V453000>isnt 1.3.x coming soon anyway? :)
19:46<frosch123>well, we hoped we wouldn't have to do it due to the world ending
19:46<frosch123>but now it looks like we have to
19:51<V453000>hmmm I wanted to make a feature where intercity trains grow on power with length
19:51<V453000>but like the engine gets more power
19:51<V453000>sooo, length of consist -> power
19:51<V453000>but at 32k :(
19:51<+michi_cc>frosch123: Like ?
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19:52<V453000>how dumb is it to re-use the deprecated thing -I just forgot the name- ?
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19:52<V453000>livery override
19:55<V453000>does NML even support that anymore?
19:55<frosch123>michi_cc: looks better
19:58<frosch123>V453000: it is mentioned in the specs, but no idea whether anyone ever tested it :)
19:58<V453000>I did
19:59<V453000>I think it actually worked for me but when I wanted something more complicated there was some issue I think
19:59<V453000>probably that I wanted to define all sprites by one switch or something else, idk
19:59<V453000>I will try it again I guess
19:59<V453000>I cant really reach what I want to do any other way I think
20:00<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r24839 /trunk/src (11 files) (2012-12-23 01:00:25 UTC)
20:00<@DorpsGek>-Feature [FS#5271]: [NewGRF] Support oversized purchase list sprites. (Based on patch by Eddi)
20:01<V453000>OVERSIZED! that is discrimination, they are Just the right size ;)
20:02<V453000>perhaps slightly obese but not oversized :(
20:02<V453000>same as people calling my new slugs fat :(
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20:05-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
20:06<Flygon>Y'know, if someone ever makes a Steampunk-Dieselpunk GRF
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20:06<Flygon>We gotta have 512*96 Zepplins
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20:51<V453000> extra_power_per_wagon: switch_monoice1_extra_power; <--- This expression cannot be assigned to a parameter.
20:51<V453000>sad panda :(
20:51-!-Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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20:54<Flygon>You're a Panda?
20:55<Flygon>Also, these Christmas themes are annoying as hell
20:56<Flygon> This is why
20:57<V453000>on the scale of sadness, I am quickly turning into a panda
20:58<V453000>when a train can dynamically change its power, why couldnt the wagons
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21:00*Flygon gives Panda some Watermelon
21:00<V453000>pandas eat features
21:01<V453000>not watermelons
21:01*V453000 :(
21:01<V453000>im picky I know :>
21:01<Flygon>You're the strangest Panda I've ever met
21:01<V453000>well that isnt too surprising I guess
21:02<V453000>sad panda which creates mazes for trains, eats features and draws weird shit
21:02<V453000>sounds okay
21:03<Flygon>Draws weird shit?
21:03<Flygon>You aint seen much of my shit :P
21:03<V453000> ?
21:04<V453000> :> melters
21:04<Flygon>Lemme rephrase that
21:05*Flygon queries
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 23 00:00:23 2012