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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-24

---Logopened Mon Dec 24 00:00:03 2012
---Daychanged Mon Dec 24 2012
00:00<Flygon>Interesting feature for OpenTTD
00:00<Flygon>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Hawkesbury_River_rail_bridge.jpg Unused bridge bases (or bridges removed, but bases kept)
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00:40<@peter1138>along with crazy-long power cables?
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03:22<Eddi|zuHause>that can easily be done by objects
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03:32<Supercheese>Could even borrow the construction stage for Oil Rig, no extra sprites needed
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04:29<andythenorth>bonjour
04:29<Supercheese>howdy
04:36<andythenorth>FISH 2 needs some kind of passenger comfort factor
04:36<andythenorth>via cargo aging
04:37<frosch123>passengers aging on board?
04:37<frosch123>so, that's why people on cruise ships are always so old
04:38<Pikka>does it though?
04:40<andythenorth>Pikka: does it?
04:40<andythenorth>I am not sure either
04:40<andythenorth>in a game, do you ever notice amount paid for cargo?
04:41<Pikka>as long as it's not so unbalanced that a vehicle makes extraordinary amounts of money, or doesn't make any money, no
04:41<andythenorth>and if it's really unbalanced....?
04:41<Pikka>well since you already have capacity, speed, running cost, purchase cost, etc to balance, why introduce another?
04:42<Pikka>perhaps if you need it to keep things reasonable for small and slow vehicles
04:42<andythenorth>standard 'this vehicle costs more but earns more per mile' tradeoff?
04:42<andythenorth>hovercraft make people sick (for examples)
04:44<Pikka>seems like unnecessary complexity that won't change the way people play the game at all
04:45<Pikka>and I say that as a veteran creator of a lot of unnecessary complexity :)
04:46<Pikka>I can see how very slow or very small ships might need a boost in profitability, but I'd make it a quiet internal balance thing rather than a "feature"
04:49<Pikka>small planes and helicopters in av8 get a cargo aging bonus...
04:50<andythenorth>I was hoping someone would talk me out of it ;)
04:50<andythenorth>I'd have to provide buy menu info strings and all that crap
04:50<Supercheese>Hidden feature sounds good
04:50<andythenorth>Pikka: you played a FISH 2 game?
04:51<Pikka>I don't think so, still using the bananas version
04:51<Pikka>in my ancient test game :)
04:51<andythenorth>there is a v2 test release on babaaaabanas
04:51<Pikka>I'll update everything once I have some 19th c houses and industries to test
04:51<Pikka>cool :)
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04:53<andythenorth>could use some feedback, I can't be bothered to play a game :P
04:53<andythenorth>nor do I have time
04:53<andythenorth>due to baby holding
04:54<andythenorth>if there was a new TaI I might bother o_O
04:54<Pikka>for a given value of "new"
04:54<Pikka>we'll have to do it multiplayer :)
04:57<V453000>I always super enjoy playing with new features I make :D Kind of a reward to me
04:58*andythenorth needs a new CargoGoal script
04:58<V453000>:D
05:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: combine it with destinations? ;)
05:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: or like "produce 5000 goods in 4 different factories"
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05:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: or have successive goals "produce 1000 steel in the first 5 years, produce 3000 oil in the next 5 years, produce 10000 goods in the next 5 years" [potentially randomized after each 5 year period, so you need a generic enough network]
05:04<V453000>build 1000 trains. goal :p
05:04<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: build no more than 80 trains of (average) 3 tile length :)#
05:05<Eddi|zuHause>TTO limits forever!!
05:05<V453000>lol
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05:08<Wolf01>hello :)
05:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: write a GS :)
05:09<andythenorth>use the new story book API
05:12<andythenorth>maybe I should try NG French trains
05:12<andythenorth>for a game
05:14<andythenorth>but which truck set? o_O
05:14<Supercheese>BANDIT
05:15<Supercheese>unless not those kind of trucks :P
05:15<andythenorth>BANDIT isn't
05:15<andythenorth>BANDIT is a non-thing
05:15<Supercheese>:P
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>GermanRV has three trucks now, but not sure how useful that is. haven't got around to testing it yet
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>... and still a 1920 startdate only :/
05:20<frosch123>you can start with nuts then :p
05:21<frosch123>though i think i should my next game way later than usual, so i get some rainbow things
05:21<frosch123>unicorns and such
05:21<Supercheese>Nyan trains
05:21<Supercheese>and Nyan planes
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05:23<V453000>2000+ is particularly fun, but 0.4.0 will introduce wtf from 1960s :)
05:25<frosch123>i am still unsure whether unicorn trams should be available rather in 1200 or in 2200
05:26<andythenorth>lolwut
05:26<Supercheese>Make it a parameter
05:26<@planetmaker>moin :-)
05:26<andythenorth>bonsoir planetmaker
05:27<@planetmaker>and... merry christmas to everyone still here :-)
05:27<Supercheese>:D
05:27<andythenorth>V453000: how about a nuts truck set?
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but trucks are boring because they are inefficient...
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>[paraphrasing V453000] :p
05:31<andythenorth>you have pre-empted my next question :P
05:31<andythenorth>does a truck set need to be complete?
05:31<andythenorth>or should I just work with the 'trains are best' assumptions of the game
05:31<andythenorth>and only provide a limited range of trucks
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05:34<Eddi|zuHause>afair #openttdcoop did a truck-only game :)
05:35<@planetmaker>several, yes
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but you should define "completeness" first
05:36<V453000>it isnr about inefficiency but abou triviality. trais have tons more possibillities what to do. also, egrvts works similarly to nuts already
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>there should be small trucks and large trucks, and each of them should be refittable to every cargo
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>if that is "complete", then yes
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05:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: refittable to every cargo is proven not to work :(
05:38<andythenorth>assuming that auto-refit is also wanted
05:38<V453000>wut?
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: indeed, that's why i hate airports so much. there's nothing you can manage.
05:38<V453000>exactly
05:38<V453000>sae for ship
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>and they are hopelessly inefficient if unmanaged...
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>you'd have to timetable the planes, so they don't block each other so much
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>and there are no means to manage timetables either
05:40<V453000>hm we just dont use them mostly
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>i want to use them sometimes, but then get to the same conclusion again
05:41<andythenorth>planes are for firs supplies :P
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05:41<andythenorth>specifically using av8
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: helicopters :)
05:42<andythenorth>need more small airports though :P
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05:42<V453000>the helicopters with crates are awesome i will give you that :) but making supplying with various train system is more interesting :p
05:45<andythenorth>I hate trucks
05:46*andythenorth just concluded
05:47<Supercheese>night all
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05:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but i meant that every cargo should be transportable with both a small and a large type of truck, not that every truck needs to be refittable to every cargo
05:59<andythenorth>ok +1 to that
05:59<andythenorth>so one small truck, no trailer
05:59<andythenorth>one large articulated truck
06:00<andythenorth>to cover each group of cargos
06:13<V453000>frosch123: what was fixed about the regearing missing from -none- menu filter?
06:13<V453000>just including regearing to none?
06:16<frosch123>yes, "none" displayed stuff which was refittable to nothing; now it considers only real cargos
06:17<frosch123>i.e. those without the SPECIAL cargo class
06:19<V453000>:) nice
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: so that
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>'ll fail again when people use passengers as pseudo-cargo
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>to avoid a "special" cargo slot
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. by returning a 0 capacity by callback
06:20<V453000>passengers as special? :D sounds better than pay in cola trucks on mars
06:20<frosch123>yup, that's why i consider the special cargo as not that bad :)
06:21<frosch123>it's at least marked as special
06:21<frosch123>while pax will screw over everything
06:21<frosch123>including ais :p
06:21<frosch123>where is krinn when one needs him? :p
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>it's a nice idea in theory, but there are too many conflicts with industry sets
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>like you can't just add NARS to the USA scenario (ECS version)
06:22<frosch123>that's just because of weird cargo limitations
06:23<frosch123>it just needs more slots :)
06:23<frosch123>32 for real cargos
06:23<frosch123>32 for fake cargos
06:23<Zuu>As long as towns don't produce the special pax cargo, it should be handled by eg. SuperLib.Helper.GetPAXCargo()
06:23<frosch123>32 for pseudo town effects
06:23<frosch123>(separating them ensures that noone used them all)
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: no "special pax cargo"
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: just passengers (with cargo subtypes)
06:23<Zuu>It is even so that it use the PAX cargo with maximum town production as passengers.
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: the assumption was that every possible set out there contains this cargo
06:24<frosch123>Zuu: the problem is that the ai will see vehicle as transporting passengers, while they in fact do not :p
06:24<Zuu>oh
06:24<Zuu>that's nasty
06:24<frosch123>as in pax, but capacity 0
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: so you don't have to include cargo definitions in your vehicle set
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: imho the solution would be to allow "subtype" refitting with no cargo
06:25<frosch123>Zuu: well, if the ai is lucky it will attach wagons to engines anyway
06:25<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: or just a separate thing to subtypes :p
06:25<frosch123>where is andy when you need him? :p
06:26<andythenorth>indeed
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: something like MB's "views" idea, but additionally with ability to change stats
06:27<andythenorth>just give every vehicle 2 cargo slots
06:27<andythenorth>that would be interesting
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: wouldn't solve the problem
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: although it would solve a different problem :)
06:28<__ln__>ho-ho-ho
06:29<andythenorth>it would make refitting more complicated :P
06:30<andythenorth>but the second slot could also be used as storage :P
06:30<V453000>how sdo you mean that? :D livestock/coal train andy?
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that excactly it should not :p
06:31<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: main difference would be that you can also change the "view" without changing the cargo, even if the vehicle carries a cargo
06:31<frosch123>would remove those silly 256 refit options of heqs :p
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>yes
06:32<V453000>:D
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06:32<andythenorth>is 'view' available as an action 2 var?
06:32<andythenorth>it would kind of have to be :P
06:32<V453000>subclassesssss
06:32<andythenorth>which would lead to....abuses
06:34<V453000>btw why cant extra power per wagon be defined by a switch?
06:34<frosch123>andythenorth: the problem is usually not who can read the var, but who and when it can be assigned :p
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>for any sane usage it shoulud
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>especially it needs to be available during purchase
06:34<frosch123>V453000: because it is not in that list http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Change_vehicle_properties_.2836.29
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>so i can use it with the articulated callbaack
06:35<frosch123>you can only dynamically decide whether a wagon is powered
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>to modify number of wagons
06:35<frosch123>so, you can give every wagon the same power, but only make every third wagon powered :p
06:35<andythenorth>if there is any possibility of seriously implementing views...please let me know o_O before I rework BANDIT set design (again)
06:35<V453000>interesting
06:36<frosch123>andythenorth: remains the question whether views can be changed after purchase :)
06:36<frosch123>or whether there should be two views
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: in my use case, you shouldn't be able to change the "view" after purchase
06:36<frosch123>one fixed on purchase, the other mory dynamic
06:36<andythenorth>view changes in depot only
06:36<andythenorth>can be done after purchase
06:36<frosch123>so you would have three things to mess up: purchase view, refit view, refit cargo subtype :p
06:37<andythenorth>apart from being clunky, subtypes worked fine for most cases until auto-refit arrived
06:37<V453000>like switch saying that based on position in consist?
06:37<frosch123>yes-ish
06:39<V453000>hm... currently i ended with static power bonus per wagon but I will see what I can do with this
06:40<V453000>logic was I want trains which increase efficiency with length
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: or we "deprecate" cargo subtype, and make only "cargo" and {one of "cargo suptype", "dynamic view" or "static view"} available at the same time
06:40<V453000>static bonus already does that sort of
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: you can also simply count the length in the power callback for the engine
06:42<V453000>I do that for single head trains, for dual head I need more than 32k power
06:42<V453000>so wagons
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>hm ok
06:43<V453000>static bonus is probably best solution in the end
06:44<V453000>least confusing, valid in my logic, but not breaking short trains
06:44<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yes, allowing either dynamic or static view would simplify stuff :p
06:45<andythenorth>newgrf sets a bit
06:45<andythenorth>authors might want some views to be private
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it would also need no change to the vehicle struct, since the same 8 bit are used in either case
06:45<andythenorth>others exposed to player
06:46<andythenorth>cargo subtype should really go
06:46<V453000>what are these views you talk about?
06:46<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that is no criterion
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=51763
06:47<frosch123>V453000: something which allows regearing, different number of tram wagons, liveries and such; but without the term "cargo"
06:48<V453000>hm :)
06:48<V453000>probably nothing for me
06:48<frosch123>V453000: it would allow to select the colour of the slime trace on purchase
06:49<V453000>!
06:49<andythenorth>so for example, set a ship to be a ferry (cabins) or utility vessel (open decks)
06:49<andythenorth>or set a truck to have 2 trailers or 3
06:49<andythenorth>or set trailers to use skis or wheels
06:49<V453000>need slime tracw first... though I guess itapplies to the local train recolouring
06:49<andythenorth>V453000: you should make some trains based on Doom
06:50<V453000>that isnt unlikely to happen in next version
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06:52<V453000>can you somehow refit between views by order like subclasses?
06:53<frosch123>i guess they key issue with views would be to disallow them to depend on cargo or consist
06:53<V453000>other than that looks awesome
06:53<frosch123>i.e. a purchase-list only thing (even if changeable after purchase)
06:54<frosch123>then you could allow autorefit to only refit certain views into specific other views
06:54<frosch123>V453000: i think the main idea from a vehicle set point of view is to allow more vehicles but with a short purchase list
06:54<frosch123>by making it a 2-step selection
06:55<V453000>same vehicles with same stats? :d
06:57<V453000>guess I best keep local subclass refit as is
06:57<andythenorth>frosch123: for me specifically it solves 2 cases: one graphical, one gameplay
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06:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: view decides which cargos are autorefit-able?
06:58<andythenorth>I assume so yes
06:58<andythenorth>hmm
06:58<andythenorth>actually does it change the value of the 4 cargo props?
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>it cannot change properties, only callbacks
06:59<andythenorth>but cb36 changes props...
06:59<andythenorth>which might read the view
07:00<andythenorth>and extend cb36 to change props 28/29/2C/2D (trains)
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but as long as the view cannot be changed by cb36, that is fine
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot return lists in a callback
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>but you can have a callback that takes the cargo as parameter and returns yes/no/maybe
07:01<andythenorth>set props 28 etc as lists of lists :P
07:02<andythenorth>return the index that you want
07:02<andythenorth>i.e. list of lists in the action 0
07:02<andythenorth>cb returns an index to required lsit
07:02<andythenorth>brb, presents to wrap
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>... only 5 hours to unwrwap presents :p
07:03<frosch123>hmm, maybe the dynamic view thingie could be allowed/disallowed via a cb
07:03<frosch123>so, only certain views are refittable to other views
07:03<frosch123>while not changing the name/meaning of a view
07:03<drac_boy>hi
07:04<drac_boy>eddi heh sounds like you can't wait to see what you got?
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: so i can change from "4 wagons, liquid" to "4 wagons, bulk", but not to "8 wagons, liquid"?
07:04<V453000>4 for me Edd :PPP
07:04<frosch123>yeah, or disallow any refitting after 20 years
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07:05<V453000>o god I hate typing on tablet
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: "S-Bahn livery is only available between 19xx and 19yy"
07:06<frosch123>well, it will remain available to those which already have it
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>unless the grf author overrides that by other means ;)
07:08<V453000>liveries should always be available in full range tbh... visual variety is always nice.. the more the better
07:09<@planetmaker>^^ +1
07:09<@planetmaker>for the realistic-minded people there could be a parameter to forbid it. Or vice versa
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, such a parameter was planned for CETS
07:11<drac_boy>V453000 I have always thought a bit about that. offering different colours of tank wagons at random
07:11<drac_boy>after all some could be yellow to represent Shell ... blue would had looked like Esso .. etc
07:12<drac_boy>better than one long string of tank wagons that all look the same
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>you can already do that
07:12<@planetmaker>no problem to do so.
07:12<@planetmaker>e.g. OpenGFX+Trains does so with the container wagons. Random colours for those
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>i think the DBSet has a parameter to randomize individual wagons or the whole train as one
07:12<@planetmaker>could of course become user-selectable, but meh. Too much choice ;-)
07:13<drac_boy>V453000 and if you want to go overboard, look at the upcoming French Narrow Gauge set .. he actually has each locomotives in several different railray liveries. some of the locos have 8+ different liveries to manually select from tho 0_o
07:13<V453000>I think colour randomization is an amazing tool to make stuff look good, you just need some part of the vehicle which keeps it unified so it doesnt distort too much
07:14<V453000>like random sprites for full goods etc
07:14<@planetmaker>^^
07:15<drac_boy>planetmaker I think a compromise between manual and automatic liveries is probably the best choice
07:16<@planetmaker>yeah. And where to draw that line... that's a personal preference :-)
07:16<drac_boy>for example in dbsetxl you can choose to have the rhinegold livery passenger trains (cream+red) but it randomize the domes/diner/etc on its own instead
07:16<@planetmaker>which could be set via NewGRF parameter, possibly
07:17<drac_boy>planetmarker agreed
07:19<V453000>I have randoms everywhere, strupes on wagond, slight differences in wagon colours, random cargoes like cows/pigs/sheep/pikn-elephants, or containers of x colours, crates barels, .. though for pax rrains where you want whole train to look the same a livery caro subclass refit is probably most suitable.. but hey you can add random to that too!
07:25<frosch123>he, keep on entertaining me!
07:25<frosch123>i have to run every 5 minutes to the oven, in between i have 2 minutes to read chat
07:26<drac_boy>heh :)
07:27<drac_boy>V453000 one of the thing that I had sometimes thought about (and haven't seen in any grfs yet but I haven't tried all of them tho) was to have liveries on passenger wagons made specific to different generations and the kind of locomotives
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07:28<drac_boy>like for example in north america an original heavyweight coach could only be taken by a steam locomotive or boiler heating fitted diesel locomotive while a modernized heavyweight or any lightweight coach would require a diesel locomotive with head end power (or the use of a electric genset wagon behind the locomotive)
07:28<drac_boy>don't know if any players might want that kind of "stictness" in locomotive mating but mm
07:30<V453000>just specific attach settings :)
07:31<frosch123>i think there are some sets which do such things
07:31<frosch123>like requiring break wagons and such
07:31<V453000>for example my maglev trains are fasrtest but can only haul small wagons... balance :)
07:31<frosch123>they are quite cumbersome to play
07:32<drac_boy>frosch123 well a break wagon wouldn't had been needed if air brakes had been introduced earlier? :)
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07:33<drac_boy>in usa they were only required more or less for train safety reason .. but the train still could had came to a stop on its own without any caboose nevertheless
07:33-!-alan45 [~a199901@pool-108-27-192-194.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd
07:33<drac_boy>(compared to uk)
07:33<drac_boy>I'm just generalized a bit too much tho maybe
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>btw i have here a picture of a per-wagon randomized train, matching the date :) http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2024.%20Dez%201963.png
07:33<V453000>brake wagons are just wtf to me :)
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07:35<frosch123>drac_boy: if you want such "realism" features, you should provide them only as eyecandy
07:36<frosch123>but not make it mandatory to know them to use the trains
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>CETS won't include "Güterzugbegleitwagen" in the core set
07:36<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: matching the date? it's not 1963 :p
07:36<V453000>eexactly Eddi :) though how does db set randomize that? Idont think it is just random
07:37<drac_boy>frosch123 well you should tell that to uk for having too many unbraked wagons? ;)
07:37<frosch123>V453000: rerandomize trigger when wagon is empty
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: that particular case was actually an openttd bug. when buying the train, the per-train-randomisation wasn't done correctly
07:37<andythenorth>hmm
07:37<frosch123>V453000: tankers can also use build date
07:38<frosch123>so stuff bought at the same time has the same colour
07:38<V453000>tghere is somethinhg more though
07:40<V453000>when there is cargo waiting in the station, it is random within wagon, if station hasno csrgo/good service, then it is random but the same within a train
07:40<drac_boy>I kinda want to ask this...
07:40<andythenorth>present wrapping concluded
07:41<drac_boy>is it only north america that had these centerbeam wagons? the one that look like flatcars except for walled ends .. and a large beam 'wall' running down the middle
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: you set the triggers correctly?
07:41<V453000>andythenorth: survived? :)
07:41<andythenorth>sorted
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07:42<andythenorth>so....what if a 'view' was composed of an action 0 and action 3?
07:42<andythenorth>nothing more
07:42<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: in db set, my triggers are just normal random
07:42<andythenorth>i.e. each ID has n action 0s / 3s
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so then how would i do curve images?
07:44<andythenorth>how are you planning to do them?
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>i do them by reading curve info of previous/next vehicle
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>so i need an action 2
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>varaction2
07:46<frosch123>andythenorth: don't make stuff more complicated than it needs to
07:47<andythenorth>hmm
07:47<andythenorth>switching action 0s seems quite conceptually simple as an interface for authors to me
07:48<andythenorth>compared to endless switches / varact 2s checking view var each time :)
07:50<V453000>endless switches ^^my pax wagon switch has 1300 lines
07:53<@planetmaker>:-) Sounds decent. But not enormous
07:53<V453000>^^
07:55<V453000>anyway,i will be going towards the christmas mayhem, have a nice time!
07:56<andythenorth>I liked the idea that 'view' is like 'view' on a model in mvc
07:56<drac_boy>anyone in here have any thought on some alternative term to 'boxcab' or thats pretty much the only one there is? I'm just trying to think of if theres another name that would be easier to recognize in other countries or not
07:56<andythenorth>otherwise we might as well just call it 'arbitrary storage on newgrf vehicles'
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: "arbitrary storage" would mean you can assign to it during callbacks and stuff
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>that's a whole different type of insanity :p
08:10<drac_boy>quick grf check - 'short tonnes' is used .. not 'long tonnes' right?
08:10<drac_boy>or was it the other one
08:10*drac_boy hates all these names-alike weights >_<
08:15<frosch123>all tons in ottd are metric tons
08:15<frosch123>independent of what the translator called them
08:15<drac_boy>thanks, now I know which tons to convert to
08:15<drac_boy>ton .. short ton .. long ton .. etc ... it can get a little confusing at first I guess
08:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so how do views help you do curves?
08:16<drac_boy>at least tractive effort isn't too hard .. so far I know of tf (tons-metric force), kn (kilonewton), and lbf (pounds force)
08:27<andythenorth>frosch123: how would a view be chosen? On purchase menu (as per MB mockup)? Or with a new menu after construction?
08:31<frosch123>both
08:32<frosch123>always in the purchase menu
08:32<frosch123>if the grf allows also after purchase similiar to refit
08:32<frosch123>likely not via order
08:32<frosch123>but via autoreplace
08:33<frosch123>i might try to write a spec when i am done with baking :)
08:34<andythenorth>\o/
08:34<andythenorth>it seems (mostly) straightforward
08:34<andythenorth>I forsee a future containing a lot of cb36 though :P
08:34<andythenorth>although, for RVs that's nothing new :)
08:34<frosch123>cookies are not like cake which you just shovel into the oven and then do something else :)
08:35<andythenorth>cookies are what you shovel into toddlers
08:35<frosch123>yup, but only after baking
08:35<frosch123>not necesasarily directly after though
08:45<drac_boy>heh heh
09:00<@Belugas>hello
09:01<andythenorth>Belugas: :)
09:01<andythenorth>still working? :P
09:02<andythenorth>Pikka: is it tasteful to use UKRS 2 in arctic?
09:03<frosch123>poor belugas, i with i could file him some of the fresh cookies
09:04*andythenorth ponders a cargo goal game, single player
09:04<andythenorth>what amount for goal though, assuming 1910-2010 play length?
09:05<andythenorth>100k?
09:05<SpComb>133.7k
09:05<andythenorth>because...?
09:05<SpComb>christmas is quite the season for playing openttd, I should have a game myself
09:06<SpComb>vanilla without any GRFs :P
09:07<drac_boy>heh :)
09:11<frosch123>andythenorth: i played sv singleplayer, 30 years, 10 industries, 300 ton per industry and quarter, 10k per quarter total
09:11<frosch123>100k is way too few for 100 years nocargoal
09:11<andythenorth>I'll play SV
09:12<frosch123>ok, then you need a big map :p
09:12<frosch123>else you will run out of space
09:12<andythenorth>it's going to be insane :P
09:12<andythenorth>30 industries in one town
09:13<andythenorth>0 suitable towns found :P
09:14<andythenorth>30 is too many I guess
09:17<andythenorth>works with 17 industries and low towns
09:18<frosch123>andythenorth: use less towns
09:18<andythenorth>hmm
09:18<andythenorth>with FIRS basic economies SV not so good
09:18<frosch123>it requires a certain area for the town per industry
09:19<andythenorth>most cargos in Basic have only one source
09:19<andythenorth>17 paper mills is boring :P
09:20<andythenorth>frosch123: does SV account for max possible production at a primary?
09:21<andythenorth>not sure I can get 200t out of these farms ;)
09:21<frosch123>funding primaries is part of the concept
09:22<andythenorth>I mean the max possible per instance
09:22<andythenorth>I guess it can't check that actually
09:22<andythenorth>due to production cb
09:23<frosch123>it is your job to produce enough stuff
09:23<frosch123>or are you playing with primary industry as goal industry?
09:23<frosch123>imo that does nor work properly and should be removed :)
09:24<frosch123>though it might work with firs supplies :p
09:25<andythenorth>primary as goal
09:25<andythenorth>hmm
09:25<andythenorth>HEQS is broken
09:25<andythenorth>that's new :(
09:29<drac_boy>why is HEQS broken?
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09:35<frosch123>the load was too heavy
09:37<drac_boy>frosch123 how can that be? unless you telling me that FIRS has higher weight class than ECS or original
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09:38*drac_boy is just trying to understand since I thought 1 ton of goods in original was same as 1 ton of goods in custom industry etc
09:39<andythenorth>some kind of multiplier is being applied to cargo refits
09:39<andythenorth>so refit #3 for these HEQS trams results in 45t capacity not 75t
09:39<drac_boy>oh thats making more sense now :/
09:40<andythenorth>it's a FIRS issue
09:40<andythenorth>bah
09:40<andythenorth>or at least the issue disappears if I remove FIRS
09:40<frosch123>drac_boy: it's just wearing out; andy played more often with heqs than anyone else
09:41<drac_boy>heh well I've used the HEQS trams a lot tho
09:41<drac_boy>being able to have a "heavy" short distance freight route with no need for signals/etc kinda is rather nice
09:42<drac_boy>never ever used the road vehicles so much tho (well..sometimes the logging trucks and other reasonable ones tho)
09:43<drac_boy>I know theres nothing that can be done about it for the time being apparently but I just hate having to see the tram overhead wire all the times tho :|
09:43<drac_boy>heh oh well
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09:46<andythenorth>drac_boy: transparent mode
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09:47<drac_boy>andythenorth maybe but then the wired trams would look silly with no wires
09:47<drac_boy>so yeah thats why I don't know if I should complain or not :P
09:49<andythenorth>so...what cargo action 0 prop causes the cargo amount to be multiplied by 0.6 in some newgrf vehicles (but not all)
09:49<andythenorth>??
09:49<drac_boy>andythenorth I forgot the url, remind me again if your tropical climate had copper ore just like the original one did?
09:49<andythenorth>no
09:49<drac_boy>np
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09:50<andythenorth>prop 1D?
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>this looks very HEQS-ish :) http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8364/8303263462_40105ef522_o.jpg
09:51<drac_boy>eddi CORRECT .. that kind of thing is why I wish there was two choices of tram tracks .. but thats too unlikely so I wouldn't press it ;)
09:51<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that is exactly HEQS-ish
09:51<@Terkhen>hello
09:51<andythenorth>lo Terkhen
09:51<drac_boy>hi terkhen
09:51<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so how do views help you do curves? <-- it doesn't. i do curves already, but i can't do several lengths (8, 10, 12 wagons...) at the same time
09:52-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:52*andythenorth wonders wtf the capacity multiplier is defaulting to 0.6 :P
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>the HEQS scheme of making wagons invisible collides with the curve-articulation
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>as i can't make wagons 0 length
09:53<andythenorth>that's the price of elegant hacks :)
09:53<andythenorth>fragility :P
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>each wagon can only be contracted to 3/8
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>and then i get insane checks for which vehicle now has to be taken as the reference for the curvature
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>if i had "purchase-time" views, i could just skip adding some wagons in the articulation callback and be done with it
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>nothing complicated about it
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>you just can't modify the number of wagons afterwards
09:55*drac_boy still has to see about using invisible articulated wagon pixel to get one single wagon to actually carry two different cargos yet
09:55<drac_boy>but thats for another time, still busy with locomotives alone yet
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: that's trivially easy
09:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: similarly, that would also be a perfectly acceptable way to set number of trailing vehicles for RVs
09:56<andythenorth>so I have to set capacity_multiplier per cargo
09:56<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause mm only thing I'm wondering about tho is can you set everything to zero as in 0 ton, 0 runcost, etc for the invisible part?
09:57<drac_boy>wish I had some idea but I don't think I'm any help with the multiplier thing sorry andythenorth :)
09:57<@Belugas>andythenorth: yes, but that's the last day before january, so it's fine by me
09:57<andythenorth>thanks, that was a really useful highlight drac_boy
09:57<@Belugas>plus, i've got plenty or rum to keep up ;)
09:57<drac_boy>belugas don't drink 20 rum bottles in one single sitting tho? :P
09:58<andythenorth>FIRS 0.7.5 didn't appear to set capacity_multiplier prop
09:58<andythenorth>(prop 1D)
09:58<@Belugas>naaaa... one per hour would be good enough
09:58<andythenorth>nvm, I'll just set the fucker :(
09:58<drac_boy>belugas ok thats fair
09:59<@Belugas>fair and safe ;) code wise...
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>happy tree-decorating time anyway people...
09:59<@Belugas>although i don't expect to deliver top notch uality
09:59<@Belugas>you too, sir Eddi|zuHause
10:03<andythenorth>hmm
10:03<andythenorth>so which cargos don't have capacity_multiplier 1?
10:04<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/CargoDefaultProps
10:04<frosch123>pax, mail, goods, candy
10:04<andythenorth>thanks :)
10:04<drac_boy>how do any of you feel about certain locomotives that have a small freight compartment inside their body? (I'm talking about something like http://www.x-rail.ch/MOB/Lokomotiven/Elektr.Lok/Bilder/GDe-4-4-6004_G008.jpg with the side cargo doors)
10:05<frosch123>drac_boy: can it also be used for beer?
10:05<frosch123>or too dangerous?
10:06<drac_boy>frosch123 if you mean beer as in bottles packed into a crate and labelled as FOOD .. I don't see why not?
10:06<frosch123>true, one could lock the driver's cabin
10:07<drac_boy>so cargo carrying locomotives or not so interested in them? :)
10:07<andythenorth>apparently supplies are 1:1
10:08<andythenorth>wonder why we didn't make them 2:1 like goods
10:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: HEQS needs some diesel trams like the one you posted
10:09<andythenorth>'needs' is too strong a word :P
10:14<@peter1138>oh fucking gnome 3 and your fucking shitty fucking wanky crap
10:14<drac_boy>heh I think the whole gnome and unity things are really failing at it badly :/
10:15<@planetmaker>what's the german translation of "ambient" for sound effects context?
10:15<@planetmaker>best I can up with is "Landschaft". But it's rather a subset of the actual meaning
10:16<@peter1138>gnome-shell crashes when i unmaximize openttd
10:16<@peter1138>switched to terminal and killed it
10:17<frosch123>planetmaker: hintergrund oder umgebung
10:17<@peter1138>it comes back up thinking my dual monitors is one, so it's all stretched
10:17<@peter1138>so i kill it again, and it crashes and wipes out its config
10:17<frosch123>planetmaker: Umgebungsgeräusche likely
10:17<@peter1138>PROGRESS
10:17<andythenorth>peter1138: would santa approve of that language? :)
10:18<Pikka>goodnight all and merry christmas
10:18<@peter1138>as a 34 year old...
10:18-!-Pikka [~Octomom@d58-111-70-16.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:18<andythenorth>peter1138: 1978?
10:18<andythenorth>a fine year
10:18<@peter1138>well done
10:18<andythenorth>easy for me :P
10:19<andythenorth>frosch123 SV with multiple cargos?
10:19<andythenorth>I know that's not the point...but :)
10:19<andythenorth>give it mutliple challenge stages? Completing one unlocks the next?
10:25<@planetmaker>yeah, that's good, frosch123 :-) Umgebungsgeräusche
10:26<Amis>How can I check if BaNaNaS is online?
10:27<andythenorth>ah
10:28<andythenorth>I have a town called 'barningstone on sea'
10:28<andythenorth>in the middle of a land mass :P
10:28<frosch123>Amis: http://bananas.openttd.org
10:28<frosch123>Amis: http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/openttd.org
10:29<drac_boy>andythenorth heh town name randomizers don't know "where" they are on the map apparently
10:29<Amis>So it that site is offline but I still can't fetch content it means something is wrong at me I guess? Sometimes the list under any "Check online content" stays empty without any feedback on what's happening
10:29<drac_boy>I've seem these moments where theres just a very tiny piece of island sticking in middle of ocean .. and yet the scenario editor builds a town right on it ... never can grow bigger than 2 road tiles and 3-5 houses forever anyway :)
10:30<Amis>site is online*
10:30<andythenorth>hmm
10:30<andythenorth>pikka's finescale tracks is borked in the construction menu
10:31<frosch123>Amis: firefall or proxy (if you have one)
10:32<Amis>frosch123, I tested it with firewalls off but it DOES work sometimes. I just download about 100MB
10:32<Amis>But now it's empty again
10:32<Amis>Is there a limit of some kind?
10:33<frosch123>not that i know
10:33<andythenorth>hmm
10:33<andythenorth>not borked if CHIPS isn't present
10:33<andythenorth>CHIPS is *really* broken
10:33<andythenorth>how do I pull a grf from bananas?
10:34<@Terkhen>read the TOS :P
10:39<drac_boy>sorry about asking many things at times but I still have another short question...
10:39<andythenorth>file a DMCA takedown notice with the mirror hosts?
10:40<drac_boy>do you just call them 'brake platform' or what would you call these certain covered vans that have a door facing open (but still roofed at times) platform at one end .. containing the manual brake wheel?
10:40<andythenorth>setting up a game is a lot of hassle. Not sure I can be bothered to do it again :P
10:40<@planetmaker>yes. But do so without asking for removal first, andythenorth
10:40<drac_boy>swizterland had a lot of them for starters
10:40<andythenorth>is there anything I can call like 'reset_grm'
10:40<andythenorth>finding and configuring 10-15 grfs is way too much effort
10:41<@planetmaker>there's grf presets
10:41<@planetmaker>one of which is "none"
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10:41<andythenorth>meh, I'm going to read a book instead :)
10:42<andythenorth>stupid buggy grfs
10:42<andythenorth>I could update the description on Bananas for CHIPS? "Don't use this grf" ??
10:42<@planetmaker>defaults are borked?
10:42<andythenorth>CHIPS breaks other grfs
10:42<andythenorth>and removing CHIPS from my game doesn't fix that
10:42<@planetmaker>how so?
10:43<@planetmaker>and how do you know it's chips?
10:43<andythenorth>causes Pikka's finescale tracks grf to use the wrong construction menu sprites
10:43<andythenorth>I think it's CHIPS because the issue is reproducible with CHIPS present
10:43<andythenorth>and not without
10:43<@planetmaker>that's not your problem. It's pikka's
10:43<andythenorth>and CHIPS is already known-broken
10:44<@planetmaker>track newgrfs can provide their own sprites for the menu where no other grf can interfere really
10:44<andythenorth>I reported a similar issue with CanSet and got a dressing down from OzTrans
10:44<@planetmaker>that's not surprising really
10:44<@peter1138>lol
10:45<andythenorth>if I file a bug against Pikka, he's just going to be pissed off with me :P
10:45-!-Sturmi [~sturmi@pD9EB4F53.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
10:47<@planetmaker>btw... how is pikka's finescale tracks broken with chips? Looks like it should for me
10:48<andythenorth>1 min
10:48<@peter1138>yeah no problem here either
10:48<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/240534
10:51<@planetmaker>gah. Who changed Landschaftsbau into Landschaftsveränderungen?!
10:53<frosch123>planetmaker: "Erdarbeiten" :p
10:53<@planetmaker>well... that's less than "Landschaftsbau"
10:53<@planetmaker>as it includes planting trees
10:54<andythenorth>hmm
10:54<andythenorth>can't reproduce the issue now :(
10:54<@planetmaker>lol. Probably changed too many times the newgrf ;-)
10:54<@peter1138>andythenorth, do you mean the railway construction menu or the station construction menu?
10:54<andythenorth>rail construction
10:54<@peter1138>k
10:54<andythenorth>station construction is known broken for CHIPS
10:55<@peter1138>not since r24840
10:55<@peter1138>at least, railtype wise :p
10:55<@planetmaker>:-)
10:55<andythenorth>oh :O
10:55<andythenorth>the issue is AV8
10:55<@planetmaker>lol
10:56<@peter1138>av8 messes up finescale rails?
10:56<@peter1138>guess what
10:56<@peter1138>not here :p
10:57<@planetmaker>sounds highly improbable
10:57<@peter1138>indeed
10:57<@planetmaker>and yes. no issue with chips, finescale and av8 present
10:58<@planetmaker>andythenorth, and you always create a new map, right?
10:58<@planetmaker>for each test?
10:59<andythenorth>I did when I thought the issue was chips
10:59<andythenorth>let's try adding one grf at a time...
10:59<@planetmaker>you have other grfs?
11:00<@planetmaker>if so: which?
11:00<@planetmaker>can* is likely to interfere anywhere :D
11:02<drac_boy>correct me if I'm wrong but weights can be displayed in decimal places but not cargos? (as in a wagon can be 7.5t but cargo only can be either 7t or 8t not 7.5t)
11:03<frosch123>weight can be fractional, but pieces of cargo cannot
11:03<@planetmaker>capacity: 25.345 passengers
11:03<frosch123>but that's a thing of the cargo, not of the vehicle
11:04<drac_boy>thanks, just wanted to be sure
11:04<drac_boy>guess I'll have to round the wagon cargo capacity down a little bit :->
11:04<drac_boy>(except if its .8 or .9 I'll round it up then)
11:07<andythenorth>hmm
11:07<andythenorth>can't reproduce this issue now
11:09<andythenorth>hmm
11:09<andythenorth>got it, on a fresh new game
11:10<@planetmaker>savegame? pic?
11:10<__ln__>merry season!
11:10<@planetmaker>marry season?
11:11<__ln__>nono
11:12<andythenorth>planetmaker: http://imagebin.org/240536
11:12<andythenorth>removing HEQS eliminates the issue
11:12<andythenorth>I wonder if it's a sprite limit
11:12<@planetmaker>try w/o the bridge set
11:13<andythenorth>no change
11:13<@planetmaker>but does av8 in both forms make sense (independent of anything else)?
11:14<@planetmaker>and... why do you use chips 1.0.0 and not 1.0.1?
11:14<andythenorth>slightly reduced list http://imagebin.org/240537
11:14<andythenorth>1.0.0 is a mistake
11:15<andythenorth>issue occurs with 1.0.1
11:15<@planetmaker>well... tbh, that selection of newgrfs works for me :O
11:15<andythenorth>what ottd rev?
11:15<@planetmaker>head
11:16<@planetmaker>h6b1617b4
11:16<@planetmaker>is your firs different from 0.8.0?
11:17<andythenorth>moderately, just a minor bug fix though
11:17<andythenorth>I'm compiling current ottd head
11:17<@planetmaker>ah. Well. Order of grfs matters
11:17<@planetmaker>I now got weired stuff, too
11:17<andythenorth>yes
11:17<@planetmaker>putting finescale tracks last got me there
11:17<andythenorth>finescale tracks needs to be at end of list
11:17<@planetmaker>but seems not one of your faults
11:17<@planetmaker>why?
11:18<@planetmaker>for this bug. but generally?
11:18<andythenorth>[needs to be at end to trigger issue]
11:18<andythenorth>not generally
11:18<@planetmaker>might be FIRS
11:18<@planetmaker>or sprite limit
11:19<frosch123>are you using action a sprites?
11:19<frosch123>esp. the nfo authors fail to use grm for sprites
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11:20<frosch123>so the nfo grfs might mess up stuff for the rest if they are at the end
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11:20<andythenorth>I'll change order a bit
11:20<andythenorth>meanwhile FIRS 0.8.1 can be released :P
11:21<andythenorth>planetmaker: btw yesterday Bananas wouldn't accept FIRS upload from my local compile or bananas
11:21<andythenorth>I was using make bundle_zip
11:21<andythenorth>^^ /s bananas / bundles
11:22<@planetmaker>hm...
11:22<andythenorth>claimed empty pack, or duplicate grfs
11:22<andythenorth>I solved it by using make bundle, then manually tarring myself
11:22<@planetmaker>UKRS provides something wrongly... dbg: [sprite] Tried to load recolour sprite #2735 as a normal sprite. Probable cause: NewGRF interference
11:23<@planetmaker>strange. firs?
11:23<@planetmaker>so, for one thing, UKRS itself does something wrong. FIRS does something wrong in a similar manner with recolouring
11:24<@planetmaker>we should tell pikka to fix that ;-)
11:26<andythenorth>what is make bundle_zip for?
11:26<andythenorth>I always use it, but without knowing why
11:26<andythenorth>I wrote down the instructions a few years ago
11:26<@planetmaker>it creates a zip file
11:27<@planetmaker>with everything needed for distribution. or should do so
11:27<andythenorth>bananas doesn't like that zip :P
11:27<andythenorth>it's happy with the tar :)
11:27<@planetmaker>I might have changed that it contains the tar with everything inside. So if bundle_tar works. Just fine
11:27<@planetmaker>might be that bananas doesn't like like mygrf.tar.zip
11:28<andythenorth>seems not :)
11:30<@planetmaker>use bundle_tar instead then
11:30<@planetmaker>will give you the tar
11:30<andythenorth>works for me
11:31<@planetmaker>I got the feeling that it might be the sprite limit, andythenorth. Or some grf(s) not using proper grm
11:31<andythenorth>+1
11:31<frosch123>what "sprite limit"?
11:32<@planetmaker>hm... not sure :D
11:33<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/240538 works for me... and should be the same. just different order
11:33<andythenorth>I'm going to try that
11:33<andythenorth>although currently failing to get 0.8.1 from bananaasasas
11:33<@planetmaker>sorry for the tooltip in the screenshot :-)
11:34<andythenorth>ottd downloaded 116B then decided it was done :)
11:34<@planetmaker>I didn't get that. though I updated all newgrfs
11:34<@planetmaker>eh?
11:35<@planetmaker>tralllala... naming of the grf failed ;-)
11:35<@planetmaker>r3295M
11:36<frosch123>yeah, something about bananas is broken
11:36<@planetmaker>which is why I usually upload the zip from the devzone
11:36<@planetmaker>download worked for me well
11:37<frosch123>i am at 100% 15/15 but the progress window does not close .)
11:37<@planetmaker>oh
11:39<frosch123>why is firs lowercase now?
11:40<frosch123>it used to be all uppercase
11:40<andythenorth>probly a mistake
11:40<andythenorth>release early, release often, right? :P
11:43<andythenorth>something is screwy
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11:52<@planetmaker>let's try to screw bananas... new opengfx
11:53<@planetmaker>there we go
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12:00<drac_boy>hi Bad_Brett
12:06<andythenorth>I have 2.4MB of FIRS 0.8.1 in content_download/newgrfs
12:06<andythenorth>but ottd won't see it
12:07<@planetmaker>rescan newgrfs?
12:08<@planetmaker>and mind, andythenorth, it's called "FIRS industry replacement set r3295M" in the list
12:17<@planetmaker>wooo.... r1k for OpenGFX. Update of changelog :D
12:18<@peter1138>yeah, sprite limit is, er, 2^24
12:18<@planetmaker>:-)
12:18<@peter1138>you're not gonna hit that without other problems
12:19<andythenorth>Rubidium: any way to switch the file for a specific grf version on bananas?
12:19<@planetmaker>you mean replace? No(t) really
12:20<@planetmaker>Just call it 0.8.2
12:21<@planetmaker>andythenorth, what you can do, though: the displayed version name, that's just fancy stuff and a text string
12:21<@planetmaker>as long as the newgrf internal version is different or the md5sum not the same, an update should work
12:21<@planetmaker>thus you can simply update there from 0.8.1 to 0.8.1 when md5sum changes
12:22<@planetmaker>which it will be with a re-build with different strings
12:22<@planetmaker>but I'd not advise that :-)
12:22<@planetmaker>same version, different md5sum... is bad
12:22<andythenorth>I'll do 0.8.2
12:22<andythenorth>so usually I do make clean before making bundle
12:23<andythenorth>this time I didn't
12:23<@planetmaker>I know... it's a bug in my build system. It bugs me... but... without forcing always a complete re-build I failed to eliminate it
12:23<andythenorth>nvm
12:23<andythenorth>normally I have more than one bug fix in the release, so I usually do a full build and test of the tag
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12:43<@peter1138>hmm, my grfcodec doesn't work on trg1r...
12:46<@peter1138>...
12:46<@peter1138>infact it only works on trgtr
12:47<@peter1138>oops, i mean trgir
12:48<@planetmaker>peter1138, r951?
12:48<@peter1138>924
12:48<@peter1138>v 6.0.0
12:48<@peter1138>the one in debian
12:48<@planetmaker>old :-)
12:48<@peter1138>so?
12:49<@peter1138>grfcodec could always decode the base grfs
12:49<@planetmaker>bugs with container formats
12:49<@planetmaker>several fixes since
12:50<@peter1138>glad the authors tested it
12:50<@peter1138>is there unit testing now?
12:50<@planetmaker>did someone write them?
12:50<@peter1138>i have no idea
12:51<@peter1138>it was a yes/no question surely
12:51<@planetmaker>well. the answer is 'no'
12:51<@peter1138>r951...
12:51<@peter1138>but the repo appears to be hg
12:51<@planetmaker>yes, it is
12:52<SpComb>no FIRS and Alpine :(
12:52<frosch123>no alpine with anything
12:53<SpComb>DBSetXL!
12:53<SpComb>but it was broken on something there as well, food was broken or something
12:53<@planetmaker>public [951:0588d2cd10d0 default] 2012-12-08 16:20 +0100
12:53<@peter1138>GRFCodec trunk r950 - Copyright (C) 2000-2005 by Josef Drexler
12:53<@peter1138>o_O
12:54<SpComb>the real question is what GRFs Raichase plays with
12:54<SpComb>I noticed that he had alpine
12:55<SpComb>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=166565
12:56<@peter1138>so yeah, why does ukrs2 replace wagon sprites with remaps?
12:56<frosch123>SpComb: if you want the landscape, better use ogfx+landscape
12:57<SpComb>yet http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=164482
12:58<@peter1138>it doesn't even use GRM for that
12:58<@peter1138>o_O
12:58<frosch123>told you :)
12:58<@planetmaker>paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1993/ @ SpComb
12:58<frosch123>even newstations 0.5.1 does not use grm
12:58<SpComb>that's a different game, though
12:59<@peter1138>newstations shouldn't need to
12:59<frosch123>grm is apparently too complicated for nfo
12:59<@planetmaker>lol, really, frosch123 ?! I'm surprised now. Impressed actually. But... not positively really
12:59<frosch123>peter1138: the recolour sprites for the glass
12:59<SpComb>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=166208 <-- default industries
12:59<frosch123>planetmaker: it's compatible with 0.4 for a reason
13:00<frosch123>it's mostly the same
13:00<@peter1138>it's got custom foundations, that's about it isn't it? :p
13:01<@peter1138>replacing wagon sprites is odd though
13:01<frosch123>well, the code is mostly the same
13:01<frosch123>no idea about the graphics
13:01<@peter1138>anyway
13:01<@planetmaker>causes dbg messages here always
13:02<@peter1138>no finescale sprites are overwritten
13:02<@peter1138>so i dunno why its sprites are messed up
13:02<@peter1138>hm, unless...
13:02<@planetmaker>finescale needs to be after all that. But alone it doesn't quite suffice, iirc
13:03<@peter1138>?
13:03<@planetmaker>the list andy posted: if you mix the grfs differently, the bug might not be there
13:03<@peter1138>yes
13:03<@peter1138>i can see it, just trying to work out why
13:04<@planetmaker>thus, it's not there, if the 1st grf is the finescale one
13:05<Bad_Brett>merry christmas everyone
13:06<@planetmaker>same to you :-)
13:09<@peter1138>i guess something is 16bit that should be 32bit
13:09<@peter1138>dbg: [grf] [uk_railway_set_tracks-2.0/pb_trax.grf:11] New sprite set at 67689 of type 16, consisting of 2 sets with 16 views each (total 32)
13:09<@peter1138>etc etc
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13:11<SpComb>'cept DBsetXL doesn't understand OGFX+ Alpine :(
13:12<@peter1138>yeah
13:12<SpComb>always so difficult
13:14<@peter1138>widget_data is 16 bit
13:14<@peter1138>andythenorth, there you go, it's an openttd bug all along
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: that's why i use a hacked alpine that doesn't interfere with industry sets
13:17<andythenorth>la la la
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>specifically i skipped all the industry code, and i added food acceptance to houses
13:18<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/widgetdata.diff
13:18<@peter1138>fixes the issue but i don't know if it causes any other issues
13:18<@planetmaker>nice find :-) And now fix it before... the world ends :D
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: in 2038? :)
13:19<frosch123>what window is affected?
13:19<@peter1138>railway construction toolbar when railtype sprites are loaded > 65535
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>or what's the next world-ends-day?
13:19<@planetmaker>I don't see how that should fire back, peter1138
13:20<@peter1138>yeah but widget_data is only 16 bit for a reason
13:20<@peter1138>maybe just historical
13:20<frosch123>do the matrices still work?
13:20<frosch123>iirc they use widget_data to store number of rows and columns in a bitfield-fashion
13:21<@peter1138>yeah, they seems ok
13:23<@peter1138>also possible i missed out some uint16->32 changes but it seems ok
13:23<@peter1138>i guess that's one benefit of classes
13:24<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: I have an alpinew-noindust.grf here as well
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: it's a one-line change really :)
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>there's a jump at the beginning of the industry code, just change that to an unconditional jump
13:25<@planetmaker>Is StringID also 32bit?
13:25<@peter1138>don't think so
13:26<@planetmaker>as widget_data is sometimes converted to StringID. We might then introduce a similar oddity there, should we ever have too many strings
13:26<@planetmaker>DrawLabel and friends
13:28<@planetmaker>maybe an assert like (widget_data & 0xFFFF0000) == 0x00000000 could help there
13:28<@planetmaker>but where's "there" :D
13:31<andythenorth>frosch123: so...views? o_O
13:42<@peter1138>planetmaker, i think we'd end up adding masses of asserts if we did that everytime we truncate a type
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24849 /trunk/src/lang (10 files) (2012-12-24 18:45:59 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>catalan - 1 changes by Bassals
13:46<@DorpsGek>croatian - 33 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<@DorpsGek>english_US - 33 changes by Rubidium
13:46<@DorpsGek>finnish - 33 changes by jpx_
13:46<@DorpsGek>french - 33 changes by glx
13:46<@DorpsGek>german - 51 changes by planetmaker
13:46<@DorpsGek>italian - 33 changes by Snail_
13:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 33 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:46<@DorpsGek>spanish - 33 changes by Terkhen
13:46<@DorpsGek>vietnamese - 34 changes by myquartz
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14:04<andythenorth>I wish double-clicking a newgrf opened parameter window, not removed it from list :P
14:08<andythenorth>hmm
14:08<andythenorth>SV with Alcohol?
14:08<andythenorth>17 breweries?
14:08<@planetmaker>:D
14:09<@planetmaker>totally realistic
14:10*andythenorth plays it
14:14<Sacro>limitation disturbs me very sprites
14:19<@peter1138>Sacro disturbs me
14:20<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24850 /trunk (6 files in 5 dirs) (2012-12-24 19:20:20 UTC)
14:20<@DorpsGek>-Update: Status report to santa.
14:22*andythenorth plays the actual game
14:22<andythenorth>openttd
14:22<andythenorth>not the other games
14:23<andythenorth>not even in multiplayer
14:25<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24851 tags/1.3.0-beta1/ (2012-12-24 19:25:24 UTC)
14:25<@DorpsGek>-Release: 1.3.0-beta1
14:29<andythenorth>wooh
14:29<andythenorth>xmas :P
14:29<andythenorth>oops
14:29<andythenorth>if playing SV, make industries cheap to fund :P
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>"-Update: Status report to santa." is that code for "readme and changelog"?
14:43<frosch123>plus an attachment called "wishlist"
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15:06<andythenorth>be useful if the train window showed train length
15:06<andythenorth>(train list)
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>just send it to a depot :)
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15:31<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.2.3 1.3.0-beta1
15:31-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.3 1.3.0-beta1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | #openttd.dev for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
15:31<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.2.3, 1.3.0-beta1
15:31-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.3, 1.3.0-beta1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | #openttd.dev for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
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15:49<Eddi|zuHause>so i most recently got the latest version... :p
15:50<frosch123>ottd is dieing, three of the "latest" versions only differ in documentation
15:53<@planetmaker>three?
15:53<frosch123>nightly, head, testing
15:53<frosch123>more?
15:53<@planetmaker>:-) Ok
15:54<@planetmaker>counting to 3 is difficult
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16:14<andythenorth>hmm
16:14<andythenorth>FIRS production boost is a bit viscious
16:14<andythenorth>double, then quadruple
16:14<andythenorth>which means suddenly having to buy a lot more vehicles and infrastructure
16:14<andythenorth>and if supply delivery is interrupted....massive jam
16:16<@planetmaker>build overflow depots ;-)
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that is also what's wrong with ECS
16:21<@Belugas>happy holidays all, /me is going home
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>if you miss one delivery, your entire network breaks down
16:21<@Belugas>or will try to go ho,e...
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: we had 20.7°C here :)
16:22<Bad_Brett>it's a nightmare to code a production algorithm that works properly
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>(which is the warmest christmas eve since the beginning of weather mesurement, or so)
16:22<@Belugas>haa.. shut up
16:22<Bad_Brett>at least that's my opinion :)
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: we had snow just 3 days ago...
16:23<@Belugas>haaaaa SHUT UP!!!!!!
16:23<@Belugas>and i hug you a lot, Eddi|zuHause
16:23<@Belugas> :)
16:23<@Belugas>and i'm drunk and i go back home
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>bye
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>and happy gift-receiving :)
16:27<Bad_Brett>Christmas update for those who are interested: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=44188&p=1058371#p1058371
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16:31<SpComb>wow, FIRS certainly makes you use transfers a lot more
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16:32<drac_boy>hi
16:33<Bad_Brett>heloo drac_boy!!!
16:33<SpComb>smithy -> farm/engineering supplies truck -> farm/engineering supplies train -> farm supplies train -> farm (sugar|livestock)/supplies train -> (farm <-> sugar-refinery/stockyard)
16:33<SpComb>madness
16:33<drac_boy>how're you Bad_Brett?
16:34<drac_boy>SpComb that sounds a bit too "thick" to me :-s
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16:34<Bad_Brett>i'm super, thank's for asking!
16:34<Bad_Brett>how are you?
16:34<drac_boy>beside lack of info online sometimes I'm ok thanks
16:35<Bad_Brett>merry christmas! :D
16:36<drac_boy>heh thanks
16:37<drac_boy>short question again - would there had probably been a speed limit on long chassis 2-axle wagons especially when curvations aren't exactly broad?
16:37<drac_boy>I imagine the flange always scrapes a bit on the outside rails to varying degrees with these kind of wagons but hmm
16:39<Bad_Brett>what wagons are you thinking about?
16:40<Bad_Brett>with faster locomotives it doesn't sound like a good idea to pull them at max speed
16:41<@peter1138>hmm, some of chips' tiles flicker in the ui :S
16:41<Supercheese>Yeah, known issue
16:41<@peter1138>ottd or chips?
16:41<drac_boy>Bad_Brett I think I can find an example, give me a moment :)
16:41<Supercheese>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4616
16:42<Eddi|zuHause><SpComb> wow, FIRS certainly makes you use transfers a lot more <-- just use cargodist :)
16:42<@peter1138>cargodest!
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>or YACD :p
16:42<drac_boy>heh actually Bad_Brett it was a bit too easy, I tried 'speedlink van' first (as I suspected uk must had these) and heres the first one even if its a model photo http://www.modellers-mecca.co.uk/5441-5382-thickbox/373-601b-46t-vga-sliding-wall-van-railfreight-speedlink-weathe.jpg
16:42<@peter1138>that's what i said
16:42<Supercheese>Is the
16:43<Supercheese>derp, stupid apostrophe key
16:43<drac_boy>(and btw I can tell thats N scale .. the Arnold-invented couplers are obvious)
16:43<@peter1138>hmm, it's okay by itself
16:43<Supercheese>Is the 'most recent' YACD based on a recent revision, or hopelessly old
16:43<@planetmaker>old
16:44<Supercheese>Alas, I expected as much...
16:44<Bad_Brett>I think I'd set a speed limit on those... but i guess the gameplay is most important
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>ohoo... "TIP"
16:44<Supercheese>All these fancy new commits are delicious, though :<
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>i need to try that sometime
16:44<drac_boy>Bad_Brett well the thing is theres also bogie version (just slight different capacity) at same introduction time. so thats why I was wondering if the real thing had speed restrictions which I could probably use to differ them
16:45<drac_boy>but if not I'll just drop one or the other to save an id
16:45<Bad_Brett>perhaps you could add the speed restriction to that one and make it cheaper?
16:46<drac_boy>mm actually yeah it was a little bit less because its only two rigid axles to assemble rather than the bogie trucks together with flexibile brake pipings etc
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: allegedly there's no big effort in updating YACD, just the author thinks it's pointles if you don'T solve the issues at the same time
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>"issues" being performance mostly
16:47<Bad_Brett>yep
16:47<drac_boy>guess thats settled then
16:48<drac_boy>thanks
16:48<@peter1138>firs & chips causes it
16:48<Bad_Brett>splendid
16:48<@peter1138>hmm
16:48<drac_boy>Bad_Brett how much do you know about varying rail wagons? :->
16:48<Supercheese>Well, it's extremely likely that whenever CHIPS is used FIRS will be used as well...
16:49<@planetmaker>peter1138, FIRS has the flickering issue due to bad temp variable usage with displaying sprites conditionally
16:49<@planetmaker>which then leads to sometimes uninitialized sprite numbers being used, iirc
16:50<@peter1138>i see it in CHIPS
16:50<@peter1138>but what temp variables are available?
16:50<Bad_Brett>drac_boy: not much at all... i'm an engineer though
16:50<drac_boy>mm
16:50<drac_boy>Bad_Brett is that "measure things twice then get it cut?" ;)
16:51<drac_boy>heh
16:52<Bad_Brett>yeah
16:52<Bad_Brett>hehe
16:53<@peter1138>measure once cut twice
16:54<@planetmaker>peter1138, newgrf variables. Which the grf sets values to itself. Based on whatever decision process. Temp registers
16:54<drac_boy>thats a good way to mess up something peter1138
16:54<andythenorth>CHIPS is a bit fucked
16:55<andythenorth>I've been waiting for yexo to be free of real life
16:55<andythenorth>as I don't understand the grm stuff at all
16:55<Supercheese>Sounds like a nasty disease, that "real life" ;)
16:55<andythenorth>you evolve coping mechanisms by my age
16:55<andythenorth>FIRS maybe should boost production 50% and 100% not 200% and 400$
16:56<andythenorth>I want to have the option to use the ottd-controlled production change as well, but I can't be bothered to work out the code yet
16:56<Supercheese>Make a parameter
16:56<andythenorth>parameters suck
16:56<andythenorth>just design better :P
16:56<Supercheese>Parameters = more user control
16:57<Supercheese>Which may or may not be a good thing, depending
16:57<Supercheese>For production boost values, I would support a parameter. Without knowing the code, I'd presume something like ascending in mutliples of 2 starting from 50%/100% increases
16:58<Supercheese>Then 100/200, 200/400, or so
16:58<Supercheese>Although TBH there's only a few 'sane' values there
16:59<andythenorth>you enumerated them all ;)
17:00<Supercheese>Aye :P
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17:22<@peter1138>hmm, wonder if i really need to keep old opengfxs
17:22<@planetmaker>not really. Also 0.4.6 is compatible with OpenTTD 0.7.0
17:23<@peter1138>and who uses that?
17:23<@planetmaker>yetis or so
17:23<@peter1138>heh, 5 versions of av8
17:37<@peter1138>every single time i unmaximize openttd gnome-shell crashes... wtf?
17:37<@peter1138>or rather, hangs
17:38<@peter1138>hm, it's okay without maximus extension
17:39<@peter1138>and they're written in... javascript :S
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18:05<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
18:05<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 11 weeks, 2 days, 22 hours, 46 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
18:09<@peter1138>@seen darkvater
18:09<@DorpsGek>peter1138: darkvater was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 36 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 31 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <Darkvater> good ol' days :)
18:09<@peter1138>@seen tron
18:09<@DorpsGek>peter1138: I have not seen tron.
18:10<@peter1138>@seen hackykid
18:10<@DorpsGek>peter1138: hackykid was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 42 weeks, 3 days, 13 hours, 49 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <Hackykid> hi peter1138
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18:31<frosch123>night
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19:30<Wolf01>'nighty xmas
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19:34<drac_boy>had to ask but did they ever carry liquid-filled barrels on flatcars or that generally was only for either low-side open wagons or tank cars alone?
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 25 00:00:26 2012