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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-26

---Logopened Wed Dec 26 00:00:27 2012
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01:18<Pikka>hooray
01:19<Pikka>thanks to the new buy menu sprite resizing, I have to add 256 var2 checks and 256 new sprite sets to ukrs2...
01:19<Pikka>and a dozen or so to the addon set
01:20-!-ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@haqua.4chan.fm] has joined #openttd
01:22<Pikka>or do I? that's odd...
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01:22<Supercheese> ?
01:23<Pikka>despite changing the sprite offsets for 1.3.0, they still look right in 1.2.3
01:24<Pikka>what sorcery is this
01:27<Pikka>well, I shan't complain
01:37<Flygon>http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7104/7199706990_826c7cc6e0_z.jpg I don't think this is how you're suppose to triple head... :p
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02:49<Flygon>http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/upfield-or-up-the-creek-its-all-the-same-time-travelling-20121225-2bv3b.html Good thing you don't need to manage announcements via OpenTTD @_@
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04:51<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: the sprite is always clamped to the left border of the window
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04:55<Amis>Hallo! Is it possible to move the C:\Users\...\Documents\OpenTTD folder somewhere else?
04:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
04:55<Amis>There's a setting for it somewhere?
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>move it to somewhere, and set the "working directory" to that place in the link
05:02<Amis>Ahh, yay, thanks
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05:37<@Terkhen>good morning
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06:10*Pikka returns, cool Eddi|zuHause, that's that problem avoided then
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06:13<andythenorth>Pikka: bonjour
06:13<Pikka>bongiorno
06:14<andythenorth>playing a UKRS 2 + blah game
06:14<andythenorth>I turned on all the blah
06:14<andythenorth>;)
06:14<andythenorth>that's a lot of engines to choose from :)
06:14<Pikka>it is
06:14<Pikka>I added an early retirement de-clutter parameter, it helps
06:15<andythenorth>is it intentionally evil that I have fast freight wagons, but they're restricted by need for brake van?
06:15<Pikka>do you?
06:15<Pikka>which ones?
06:17<Pikka>hmm
06:17<andythenorth>welded tank wagon
06:17<andythenorth>cartic
06:17<Pikka>welded tank wagon is only 10mph over
06:17<Pikka>cartic should probably be fixed, good point
06:17<andythenorth>speedlink vans
06:17<andythenorth>it's not a big deal, just wondered if it was intended
06:19<Pikka>in the case of the tank wagon, yes
06:19<Pikka>hmm
06:20<Pikka>did you try cartic without the brake van? ;)
06:20<andythenorth>nope, assumed there was no speed gain :P
06:20<andythenorth>is it special cased?
06:20<Pikka>there's no caboose check for the cartic that I can see, so it should run without a brakevan even before 75
06:21<Pikka>after 75, everything can run without a brakevan
06:21<andythenorth>next game I might play with fewer '+' stuff :)
06:21<andythenorth>it's pretty good though, is it done yet?
06:22<Pikka>the main set is done, for a given value of done... just bug fix releases now. The + set will keep being added to as long as people want to keep drawing it.
06:23<andythenorth>the only feedback I have is I could have used a type 4 earlier in this game
06:24<Pikka>can you suggest a type 4 earlier than the Peak and the 47?
06:25<andythenorth>probly not a real one :P
06:25<Pikka>9Fs 4 lyfe then :P
06:28<Pikka>perhaps the cartic and other wagons that don't require a brakevan should have some hint text pre-'75...
06:29<Pikka>or perhaps I'll let people work it out for themselves ;)
06:29<Pikka>your bigger buy menu sprites patch makes the buy menu so much longer btw andy
06:29<Pikka>seems to add about 2px padding above and below each vehicle
06:29-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable105.141-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
06:30<drac_boy>hi
06:30<Pikka>andy: what about the Leader, that's kinda like a Type 4? :P
06:31<+michi_cc>Pikka: It scales for oversize in both directions. Crop your extra blue :)
06:32<+michi_cc>(Or draw smaller.)
06:32<Pikka>the blue's cropped by grfcodec, natch
06:32<Pikka>the sprites are, for the most part, 1px shorter vertically than the default vehicles :)
06:33<Pikka>but no, I see that the default vehicles do not have the extra
06:33<Pikka>so I guess it's my fault ;)
06:34-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe5ba.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
06:35<drac_boy>you adding some new locomotives pikka?
06:36<Pikka>only if people are drawing them
06:36<drac_boy>ah
06:36<Pikka>should have another release in the next few days, but it's mainly bugfixes
06:36<drac_boy>is ireland included or thats a bit too different country?
06:37<Pikka>not only a different country but a different gauge
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06:42<drac_boy>hmm fair enough, w as just thinking of their one unusual locomotive experinment but oh well :)
06:43<Pikka>the addon set has the Leader, doesn't need the Turf Burner as well :)
06:44<andythenorth>I assumed the leader was rubbish :P
06:44<andythenorth>hmm
06:44<andythenorth>GT3
06:44<Pikka>GT3 is the best
06:44<Pikka>a little expensive :)
06:44<andythenorth>I've been ignoring all the weird addon prototypes :P
06:44<drac_boy>heh nice of you to know that one too and pikka the real reason I bought it up tho was that compared to the Leader the Turf at least was put into service for a while with no complaining from politics
06:45<Pikka>also this is embarrassing, looks like I wasn't cropping sprites after all. I hope there wasn't a reason for that...
06:47<Pikka>didn't seem to help much...
06:56<Pikka>Oh well, ain't bovvered. Ain't bovvered enough, anyway. Perhaps someone else will find the cause for me later. :)
06:56-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host115-94-dynamic.180-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
06:56<Wolf01>hello
06:57<drac_boy>hi Wolf01
06:57<drac_boy>had enough christmas drinking? :) heh
06:59<andythenorth>frosch123: SV with goal of 17 industries is...interesting
06:59<Wolf01>I can't drink :(
06:59<andythenorth>this town is all brewery o_O
06:59<drac_boy>oh heh ok
06:59<drac_boy>how're you still Wolf01?
06:59<frosch123>andythenorth: yay :)
07:00<Wolf01>I had enough of eating
07:01<drac_boy>what doing now then Wolf01?
07:01<Wolf01>digesting 4 sheeps and 2 hares
07:02<drac_boy>0-o
07:02<andythenorth>frosch123: just another 8 to build (some offscreen) http://imagebin.org/240644
07:02<andythenorth>:P
07:03<andythenorth>I only have 10% of the total transport goal though :(
07:05-!-nerelo [nerelo@188.85-85-19.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es] has joined #openttd
07:05<nerelo>http://www.carolinaherrera.com/212/es/areyouonthelist?share=MRJ0GjIAOsV_TzfOTiLllQLnBdnPDFj8gXcWWyMt16jkz4rz3EUUdzs6j6FXsjB4447F-isvxjqkXd4Qey2GHw#episodio-6
07:05<Pikka>michi_cc, just to clarify: if the grey cell, not including the lines, is 18px high, does that mean I have an 18px high sprite somewhere?
07:05<frosch123>@kban nerelo
07:05-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!nerelo@188.85-85-19.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es] by DorpsGek
07:05-!-nerelo was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [frosch123]
07:06<Pikka>andythenorth: I expect those are some very happy pigs.
07:06<Pikka>and/or cows
07:07<+michi_cc>Pikka: Height of the lines is "return max<uint>(FONT_HEIGHT_NORMAL + WD_MATRIX_TOP + WD_MATRIX_BOTTOM, GetVehicleImageCellSize(type, EIT_PURCHASE).height);", i.e. the bigger value of the text height or the max purchase sprite height of all rail vehicles (for all railtypes).
07:07<Pikka>hmm
07:07<Pikka>the text is just normal text, and I can't find an 18px high sprite anywhere
07:08<Pikka>I tried adjusting the offsets for my 1px dummy second head sprites, thinking that might be the problem, but it didn't make any difference.
07:08<andythenorth>does it fart about with any adjustments?
07:08*andythenorth looks in the spec for those weird train adjustments
07:08<Pikka>the text? no, andy.
07:10<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/GlobalVariables#Y-Offset_for_train_sprites_.280E_.2F_8E.29
07:10<andythenorth>?
07:10<andythenorth>probably a rabbit hole
07:11<murr4y>hi, how do i make my server autopause when 0 clients are connected?
07:12<Pikka>min_active_clients , murr4y
07:12<Pikka>http://wiki.openttd.org/Console#Server_variables
07:12<murr4y>aha, thank you
07:12<murr4y>i'll bookmark that page :)
07:13<Pikka>set to 02, andythenorth
07:13<Pikka>like every other trainset ever
07:13<frosch123>Pikka: the purchase list considers all vehicle sprites, also those which are not yet/anymore available for purchae
07:13<andythenorth>:P
07:13<frosch123>so, enable "vehicle never expire" and set year to 3000 :)
07:13<andythenorth>does it consider ships too?
07:14<Pikka>I did, frosch123
07:14<Pikka>and I searched the nfo for 18px high sprites for the purchase menu, and there aren't any
07:14<Pikka>the only 18px high sprites are the | views of certain short-length wagons.
07:16<frosch123>hmm, i guess ottd should only consider the engines available in the climate :p
07:17<Pikka>hm
07:19<Pikka>that could be it...
07:19<Pikka>let me try something
07:19<frosch123>it is that for sure :p
07:19<drac_boy>not to take this offtopic but any of you think a 1920s electric locomotive should be C or 1'C1' wheel arrangement? its more or less a mixed duty locomotive with a bit of speed
07:20<frosch123>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1997/ <- that should suffice
07:20<Pikka>let your imagination run wild, drac_boy
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the ones i know are 1'C2'
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>or (1'B)(B1')
07:21<Pikka>yep, there we go
07:21<Pikka>if I set my "housecleaning" to set climate of all IDs to 07 instead of 06, I get three question marks in the buylist
07:21<Pikka>three 18px tall question marks :)
07:22<Flygon>Ah, drac_boy, I was looking for you earlier, but I forgot what for now
07:22<Pikka>*instead of 00
07:22<drac_boy>mm so I should have nondrive axles too then
07:22<Pikka>20px, but whatever :]
07:23<Pikka>this may have something to do with me eating the sprites for those vehicles for my recolour maps, as I was told off for doing earlier today. :P
07:24<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24854 trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp (2012-12-26 12:24:03 UTC)
07:24<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r24839): Only consider vehicles available in the climate for purchase/depot cell size.
07:24<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause funny thing to mention that, when I was looking up the V140 I found one site with a few other locomotives and one was the E16 aka BR116 .. and it pretty much looks like a (1'B)(B1')
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: no, that's actually a 1'Do1'
07:24<drac_boy>or is it Bo and not B? the picture wasn't too clear to tell
07:24*Pikka gives frosch123 christmas candy
07:24<drac_boy>oh? the seperated set of drivers fooled me I guess :-s
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the (1'B)(B1') is the E77
07:25<drac_boy>hi flygon? :P
07:25<drac_boy>how're you?
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: which dates back to pre-WWI plans but was delayed due to the war, and thus was already outdated when it was built
07:26<Flygon>I'm okay
07:26<Flygon>You?
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07:28<andythenorth>Pikka: anyone offered to draw lowmac / well wagons?
07:28<Pikka>I had intended them for the original set but never got around to them, andy
07:28<andythenorth>probably a bit slow :P
07:28<Pikka>they don't have to be prototypical :P
07:29<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause outdated sounds like the Alco 'Black' carbody diesel they built to test after WWII .. it was outdated right off the starting line ... eventually got sidelined in a short time
07:29<drac_boy>at least the Alco PA that followed was a better seller
07:29<Pikka>Andy: I had 1920 intro year, 50mph, capacity 14
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: well mostly, it still was rod-driven at a time the E16 was already single-driven [based on a swiss engine]
07:30<drac_boy>doing ok flygon and I can't remember what I told you yesterday neither so .. oh well guess we'll have to find something new to talk about ;)
07:30<Flygon>Yay
07:30<Flygon>:p
07:30<Flygon>Oh
07:30<Flygon>I remembered now
07:30<Flygon>A Vicrail set would be reeeeaaaaaaaallly boring between 1910 to 2004
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: more easily seen if you compare the prussian E06 to the bavarian E16, which basically are for the same purpose [express trains]
07:30<drac_boy>heh heh
07:31<Flygon>Trains reached 115km/h by 1915
07:31<Flygon>And 140km/h by 1935
07:31<Flygon>...they broke 160km/h in 1987 >_>
07:31<drac_boy>flygon its a matter of which country and which technology
07:32<Flygon>Australia, Victoria :P
07:32<andythenorth>hmm
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>the E06 was an improvement over the pre-war E01, but it didn't really include many [potentially high-risk] technology improvements
07:32<andythenorth>Pikka: comtic?
07:33<drac_boy>I've found matters where cape gauge was already doing 100kph even for most freight wagons by the 1960's ... but go to a different country and their metre gauge only has 50-70kph freights and no more than 80kph on passengers even although they seem to be still using just as much foreign builder mix
07:33<andythenorth>http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/comtic
07:33<drac_boy>so yeah flygon sometimes comparing different railroads can be rather amusing
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>the bavarians didn't have a pre-war express engine, thus they copied a swiss design for their E16
07:33<Pikka>pain to do loads, andy
07:33<Pikka>but if you want to have a go, they'd be most welcome I'm sure :P
07:33<Flygon>Was it the conditions of the tracks? Or the laws in place?
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>which paved the way for the later very popular 1'Do1' wheel arrangement
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>while the E06 was basically a dead-end, technology and design-wise
07:34<drac_boy>flygon neither ... both were well kept tracks ... and both sometimes ironically used the exact same builders (SLM there and SLM over there)
07:34<drac_boy>so...mm
07:35<Flygon>eg. Australia did get overpowered enough locomotives by the 1970s to allow for 200km/h+ operation... but were regeared lower for maintaince and acceleration reasons, because they'd never break 130km/h anyway
07:35<Flygon>Ah
07:35<Pikka>I suppose I'd have to do my mini-scale trucks for the loads, eh?
07:35<Flygon>Perhaps the country's laws?
07:35<Flygon>eg. how the TGV can't legally go over 115km/h in Australia, barring special circumstances
07:36<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause it could be just me but sometimes I never understood why certain electric locomotives with long chassis seem to always want to put at least two or more traction motors under the extreme end of the open platforms where theres little weight to be had for tractive
07:36<drac_boy>let me find a photo of one just in case...
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>after the E16, the E17, E18 and E19 used the 1'Do1' design
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>post-WWII the Bo'Bo' design took over
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>which was first applied in the pre-WWII E44
07:38<andythenorth>Pikka: you would need mini scale yes :P
07:38<andythenorth>but you're doing a truck set, right?
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>(with the exception of a very early bavarian engine, which also happened to have Bo'Bo')
07:38<+michi_cc>frosch123: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1998/ for FS#5405?
07:38<Pikka>for a given value of "doing"
07:39<Pikka>I drew one bus about a year ago
07:39<Pikka>everyone's fixing my bugs tonight :)
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to HOVS, actually?
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>i've got a "secret" version from about 5 years ago
07:40<Pikka>that was as far as it got 5 years ago
07:40<Pikka>I would like to do a new version, smaller scaled
07:40<Pikka>I've done the planning and drawn one bus :)
07:41-!-ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd
07:44<drac_boy>sorry not sure where the picture I was thinking of is so I had to find something a bit close although not the one I had in mind...
07:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r24855 trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp (2012-12-26 12:45:19 UTC)
07:45<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5405]: Don't send aircraft to depots that are out of range of the next destination.
07:45<drac_boy>http://www.engrailhistory.info/imfile/r02140.jpg think of something like that but with a shorter box length .. and drive axles replacing the two nondrive guide axles. thats what I meant, can't be that good on traction in such position with little weight to bear onto them
07:46<@Terkhen>oooh, nice fixes
07:46<Pikka>I set 'em up, he knocks 'em down
07:47<andythenorth>setup a spec for newgrf smoke?
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: never seen such a design
07:47<Pikka>hehehe...
07:48<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause yeah there were only a few of them as far as I had noticed
07:48<Pikka>why not roadtypes while we're at it?
07:48<andythenorth>meh to roadtypes :P
07:48<andythenorth>I think smoke is easy
07:48<andythenorth>unless it turns into a full spec for arbitrary newgrf effect vehicles :(
07:48<andythenorth>which seems totally overkill to me
07:48<Pikka>contrails!
07:48<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause mind you one of the few main reasons usa had the 'famous' GG1 was because PRR needed some electric locomotives but did not like how the usual (such as ones like that photo there) electric boxes had very little cab protection in road crossing accidents
07:49<andythenorth>Pikka: keep cargo in them?
07:49<Pikka>yes
07:49<drac_boy>so a middle cab was needed .. and add some sculpturing to it .. there's your GG1
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: yes, i heard about that
07:49<drac_boy>considering that the GG1 eventually were scheduled to 100mph .. I wouldn't be too surprised with that cab position thing :)
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07:50<andythenorth>Pikka: do you have any real cases for specifying your own smoke / effect sprites?
07:50<drac_boy>andythenorth actually if you meant a smoke newgrf as in "what kind of smoke and how much of it" I could maybe like it
07:50<andythenorth>rather than using the ones provided?
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07:50<Pikka>not really.. truck exhaust?
07:50<drac_boy>it would be a good way to finally differ eg a small white plume from a 400hp diesel shunter from the thick black smoke of a 3000hp heavy diesel locomotive :)
07:50<andythenorth>diesel smoke works ok for trucks
07:50<andythenorth>HEQS uses it
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07:51<Pikka>probably
07:51<Pikka>well, ships then, certainly
07:51<Pikka>multiple funnels?
07:51<Pikka>wakes? :P
07:51<andythenorth>wakes can be done with animated water cycle
07:51<drac_boy>pikka...multiple funnels would work nicely for steam liners .. they often had more than one funnel damn it :)
07:51<andythenorth>multiple funnels is the killer app :P
07:51<Pikka>aircraft could have exhaust from multiple engines...
07:52<Pikka>what about a bus at a bus stop shooting passenger "smoke" out the side, ehehe...
07:52<Pikka>but now we're getting into general particle effects, which you didn't want to ;)
07:53<andythenorth>ho ho
07:54<andythenorth>I've tried to spec it a few times :)
07:54<andythenorth>but every time it gets mired in "you don't know what other authors want in future" :)
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07:57<Pikka>let's get newgrf(air)ports working, yeah!
07:57<Pikka>new year's resolution :P
07:57<@Terkhen>:)
07:57<andythenorth>he :)
07:57<@Terkhen>I'm already failing my resolution of finishing the scenario format this year :P
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07:58<andythenorth>new airports \o/
07:58<Pikka>eh, you've got a couple of days
07:58<@Terkhen>I've done a few more patches already on these holidays though
07:58<andythenorth>do I have to build airports tile-by-tile?
07:58<@Terkhen>about 20 missing :P
07:58<Pikka>new sea ports, andy
07:58<Emmy>Something tells me a lot in OTTD's current development gets mired in status quo itching, compatibility angst and fear of future desires.
07:59<andythenorth>yeah
07:59<andythenorth>it's software
08:00<@Terkhen>the words you use in that sentence put those considerations in a bad light, but you cannot make good software without them
08:00<andythenorth>you can make PHP
08:01<@Terkhen>throwing those considerations behind and just moving forward without taking them into account may work in small teams (better in teams of one)
08:01<andythenorth>and then you can make most of the internet with PHP
08:01<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24856 trunk/src/disaster_cmd.cpp (2012-12-26 13:01:09 UTC)
08:01<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5406]: Don't let UFOs and coal mines destroy depots.
08:01<Emmy>Terkhen: yes, I am fully aware, but there's also such thing as overdoing it
08:01<andythenorth>you can make Dwarf Fortress
08:01<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24857 trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp (2012-12-26 13:01:28 UTC)
08:01<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Don't let UFOs and coal mines clear water.
08:01<@Terkhen>yep, we could make DF :P
08:01<@Terkhen>Emmy: what would you do instead?
08:04<Emmy>well, there's not much to do differently except dare to make choices.
08:05<@Terkhen>deciding to not include something until it is ready and up to trunk standards is a choice... can you give me a specific example?
08:06<andythenorth>afaik, there aren't many (any?) finished working patches that aren't included due to angst
08:06<drac_boy>where's bridges being able to cross bridges? :)
08:06<drac_boy>heh heh
08:06<andythenorth>don't confuse the noise from people who can't / don't / won't code
08:06<Emmy>cargodist?
08:07<andythenorth>there is a crapload of noisy rubbish around suggestions and wishes, but all from people who only make noise, not code
08:07<Emmy>new newgrf specs which Ive seen quite a bit of discussion about
08:07<Emmy>new airports!
08:07<andythenorth>airports is the only example I know of where there was a big hoo-ha and flouncy drama
08:07<@Terkhen>drac_boy: to my knowledge, not coded at all
08:07<andythenorth>new airports?
08:08<@Terkhen>no, that sentence talks about the bridge thing
08:08<andythenorth>oh the bridge thing is a load of crap anyway
08:08<andythenorth>bridges can cross bridges
08:08<andythenorth>want a screeny?
08:08<@Terkhen>http://hg.openttd.org/developers/yexo/airports.hg/ <--- current state of the most modern implementation of "new airports", not ready as decided by the author himself
08:09<@Terkhen>I don't know what the new newgrf specs are supposed to be, though
08:09<andythenorth>I've played a test game with new airports in
08:09<andythenorth>routing helicopters to wind turbines :P
08:09<@peter1138>i wrote newgrf bridges once
08:09<andythenorth>http://imagebin.org/240650
08:10<@peter1138>act 1/2/3 style
08:10<andythenorth>diagonals?
08:10<drac_boy>andythenorth damn where did you create that screenshot from? :P
08:11<andythenorth>in my game
08:11<andythenorth>using ottd
08:11<drac_boy>which version?
08:11<andythenorth>latest
08:11<andythenorth>o_O
08:11<andythenorth>bridges over stations you'll never get
08:12<@peter1138>i wrote that once too
08:13<andythenorth>did you make all station newgrf authors set a correct building height? :)
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>bridges over road stations would be really useful
08:13<Emmy>you can build bridges over bridge bases, but not bridges themselves.
08:13<@peter1138>no but it was a property
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>Emmy: the code actually supports that, but it was disabled because we don't have graphics for it
08:14<andythenorth>Emmy: ho ho, you're right
08:14<drac_boy>andythenorth hmm...that would be nice in multiplayer where you are crowded for land yet another company has a bridge in front of where you want to bridge badly
08:14<andythenorth>I never found that case
08:14<drac_boy>remind me to check next time
08:14<andythenorth>I got lucky with every bridge I've bridged :)
08:15<Emmy>Eddi|zuHause: how so no graphics?
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>tall bridges like the cantilever crossing each other
08:15<Emmy>oh, right.
08:15<andythenorth>would look a bit wrong
08:16<Emmy>as wrong as some bridges crossing diagonal track, I suppose.
08:17<andythenorth>hmm
08:17*andythenorth tries to write a newgrf smoke / effects spec
08:18<andythenorth>don't really know what's required
08:19<Emmy>this is coming from someone who can't code, but you know what would be nice?
08:19<andythenorth>what do the rest of you need?
08:19<drac_boy>emmy why not? diagonal tracks exists for a reason
08:20<Emmy>tunnels that can start from flat ground like bridges (dig down like bridges ramp up)
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>did someone actually code this, or was this just a mockup?
08:20<Emmy>what, Eddi|zuHause?
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>the tunnels thing, i've seen it before
08:21<andythenorth>chunnel?
08:21<andythenorth>there was a patch of some kind
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>no, that was different
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>Emmy: thing is, you need to give up the auto-detecting of the other tunnel end, and switch to drag-building like bridges, otherwise it should be fairly simple to do code-wise
08:23<andythenorth>curved tunnels :P
08:23<Emmy>yeah, that's a thing I want anyway
08:23<Flygon>Curved tunnels would be sex
08:23<andythenorth>no
08:23<Flygon>Or darn close to it
08:23<andythenorth>it would just be a thing in a game
08:23<andythenorth>they're really quite different
08:24<Emmy>silly andy.
08:24<Flygon>...I just realized how my previous statement could be misinterpereted
08:24<Flygon>Someone whack me with an anvil please
08:24*Emmy offers an acme mail-order 100kg anvil.
08:25<andythenorth>so is the cb10 route rejected as a spec for newgrf effect control? http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4263
08:25<Flygon>Emmy: Emperium Anvil!
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08:26<murr4y>why can't i change currency to EUR in a network game?
08:26<murr4y>all other currencies are available
08:26<Kjetil>Because EU is not a network game. Everything is controlled by illuminati
08:26<@Terkhen>IIRC you cannot change to EUR if your current currency is programmed to switch to EUR at a given date
08:27<@Terkhen>I don't know the reason for not allowing it, though
08:27<murr4y>aha
08:28<Kjetil>Probably because EUR didn't exist before the end of the 1990s ?
08:30<murr4y>but the guy i'm playing with says he has EUR active
08:31<drac_boy>curved tunnels reminds me of simutrans, and how about underground stations right underneath the city .. instead of having to destroy buildings or use "catchment jumping" bus station tiles ;)
08:32<drac_boy>heh meh I know the game codes are so different but simutrans had a lot more things realistic about its constructions :-s
08:33<@Terkhen>you new NewMapArray :P
08:33<@Terkhen>need*
08:33<drac_boy>yeah thats the problem...too much work I imagine :)
08:34<@Terkhen>nah, it's just that most of the big features are coded by huge codechanges, and huge codechanges are complicated, long and tedious
08:34*Terkhen does not remember if there are any attempts to improve the map array going on
08:35<andythenorth>there was a mutliple map layers thing
08:35<Emmy>not to mention a compatibility challenge and potentially controversial due to people's personal preferences
08:36<@Terkhen>Emmy: neither of those things would be a problem with new map array
08:36<andythenorth>and just not being very necessary :P
08:36<andythenorth>but necessity is not necessary :)
08:37<@Terkhen>most of the codechanges I'm referring to would not be a problem with compatibility or possible forum drama because of eliminating options
08:37<@Terkhen>multicore support, new map array
08:37*Emmy wouldn't mind a new map array for purposes
08:37<andythenorth>the forum should just automatically eliminate posts that are voted as high drama
08:37<andythenorth>and any complaining about the deletion :P
08:37<Emmy>curved tunnels, advanced bridge graphics...
08:37<@Terkhen>both of them should be invisible to players, but would open up the possibility for new features
08:38<andythenorth>should newgrf do the calculation for when to show smoke?
08:38<andythenorth>i.e. check vehicle acceleration etc?
08:39<@Terkhen>no idea :P
08:39<andythenorth>Pikka: fancy writing your own smoke-generating algo? :P
08:39<andythenorth>or should ottd do it?
08:39<Emmy>give the option for it?
08:39<andythenorth>fuck options :P
08:39<Pikka>probably it can be done in grf
08:39<Emmy>eg. give ottd a default.
08:40<andythenorth>probably has to be in grf to get better control
08:40<Pikka>I'm for doing everything in grf, but I know I'm not in the majority :P
08:40<andythenorth>ships are the problem case :(
08:40<andythenorth>otherwise ottd could do it fine
08:40<andythenorth>I don't think much is gained by doing it in grf
08:40<Kjetil>Let's just port the entire ottd engine to grf
08:40<andythenorth>but ships should smoke constantly, not just when accelerating
08:40<andythenorth>can't see that getting changed in ottd code
08:40<@Terkhen>from my profiling of the realistic acceleration for road vehicles patch, I saw that checking a condition for every vehicle in every tick may reduce overall performance in 10% in busy games
08:40<@Terkhen>which is huge
08:40<@Terkhen>:P
08:41<andythenorth>currently all vehicle types use train smoke
08:41<Kjetil>some ships have blacker smoke during acceleration
08:41<andythenorth>details details
08:41<Pikka>Terkhen: let's reduce the maximum map size to 512* :)
08:41<andythenorth>Terkhen: smoke would have a similar performance cost I think :(
08:42<@Terkhen>Pikka: my only objection to that is "forum drama" :P
08:42<Kjetil>just need some of that opencl support for openttd ? :P
08:42<andythenorth>but could we fail the cb?
08:42<andythenorth>or draw smoke only for vehicles on screen?
08:42<andythenorth>hmm
08:42<andythenorth>no, because scrolling the map would result in missing smoke
08:42<@Terkhen>I started playing with big maps, even huge 8192x8192 maps allowed only by patching
08:42<@Terkhen>but now... meh
08:42<Emmy>why isn't ottd not drawing for things not on screen by default anyway?
08:42<@Terkhen>my max is 512x256
08:43<@Terkhen>Emmy: it is
08:43<andythenorth>to some extent
08:43<andythenorth>it doesn't know what's on screen until the graphics chain is completed
08:43<andythenorth>unless I misunderstood
08:44<andythenorth>so the graphics chain has to be run for every newgrf item
08:44<drac_boy>I always use the same map size all the times .. and its the one ttdx uses anyway :)
08:45<andythenorth>the smoke issue has 2 cases, which may be orthogonal
08:45<@Terkhen>IIRC the graphics chain must be run for every newgrf item because, given how the NewGRF specs work, you can't know if the graphics chain is doing "stuff" or not
08:45<andythenorth>(1) ships barely show smoke, as due to the acceleration model used
08:45<andythenorth>(2) can't control z or y position for smoke effect
08:46<andythenorth>oh (3) can't have >1 smoke origin point per vehicle
08:46<andythenorth> all 3 may be orthogonal
08:47<andythenorth>a spec to solve all 3 might be too hard, patching for any 1 of them would be an improvement
08:48<@Terkhen>gah, I'm getting too used to coding on Java
08:53<Kjetil>CollectionFactoryFactoryDriver ?
08:54<@Terkhen>those are not a problem :P
08:54<@Terkhen>my problem is coming back to c++ and seeing a "->"
08:55<Kjetil>haha
08:55<Pikka>andythenorth: outside the box solutions to 3 are
08:55<Pikka>a) multi-part ships
08:55<Pikka>b) 8-direction smoke sprites
08:56<Emmy>andythenorth: How much of a performance increase would you get if you did a check if something was on-screen before the graphics chain?
08:57<Pikka>can I get a "desync"? :)
08:58<Pikka>what's on-screen for me isn't what's on-screen for you...
08:58<Emmy>how do you mean?
08:58<Kjetil>is that a real issue ?
08:59<Pikka>depends what you mean by "the graphics chain"
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08:59<andythenorth>Pikka: multipart ships o_O
08:59<andythenorth>imagine...
08:59<Pikka>if you mean a whole action 2 chain that calculates whether or not the ship wants to emit smoke, then absolutely it's a real issue
09:00<Pikka>yes andy
09:00<andythenorth>a 1,000t ship could be 1,000 vehicles
09:00<andythenorth>each of 1t
09:01<andythenorth>all with auto-refit support :P
09:01<Pikka>it probably wouldn't be, though :P
09:01<Pikka>maybe 3 seperate holds?
09:01<andythenorth>any reason why 3?
09:01<andythenorth>other than it's the magic number
09:03<Pikka>no, just an example
09:03<Pikka>a more sensible example than 1000 :)
09:04<andythenorth>ho ho
09:06<Kjetil>everything is cargo. You can even start delivering boats ? :P
09:07<andythenorth>we have a spec for that already
09:07<andythenorth>frosch123 wrote it
09:27<drac_boy>can you overlap articulated locomotive sprites especially if they're at different heights anyway? (like for the front bogie underneath a mallet that would swing out to the side on curves as an example)
09:27<andythenorth>don't bother
09:28<drac_boy>so it'll glitch?
09:28<andythenorth>there's just no point
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09:30<andythenorth>even zoomed in, it's not worth trying to replicate the effect
09:30<andythenorth>it's unnecessary detail
09:30<andythenorth>and you'll find a lot of edge cases where it actually looks worse than the alternative method
09:30<andythenorth>e.g. slopes
09:31<andythenorth>hmm
09:35<drac_boy>hm slopes...I forgot to account for it "flexing up the slope"
09:36<drac_boy>yeah I can see why one single rigid sprite is better even if it overhangs ... thanks
09:37<drac_boy>at least some things like garratts or two-body electric locomotives still can do with articulation to a degree
09:38<@peter1138>3d models on the map!
09:40<drac_boy>peter1138 I still kind of prefer the 8bit pixel look but as long as its up to the newgrf arthor rather the game to set the graphic level I don't mind
09:40<drac_boy>(what I mean is the game doesn't care whether you use 2D 8bbp or 3D 32bbp sprites)
10:01<@peter1138>or 3d 8bpp or 2d 32bpp
10:01<andythenorth>3d 2d
10:01<andythenorth>how about 4d?
10:02<@peter1138>but no, i meant 3d models on the map, not sprited
10:02<@peter1138>andy, yeah, thats called animation
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10:14<Flygon>Real men work with 4bpp
10:14<Flygon>Because then we can port to Mega Drive and SNES :B
10:14<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24858 trunk/src/spritecache.cpp (2012-12-26 15:14:37 UTC)
10:14<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5404]: Make invalid sprite references to mapgen sprites behave the same as invalid references between recolour and real sprites.
10:16<frosch123>Flygon: 2bpp
10:16<frosch123>though i wonder why 4 colour systems always include stuff like cyan and magenta
10:17<Flygon>I have no idea
10:17<Flygon>It is highly questionable, I agree
10:18<Flygon>What's really confusing, is how the Mega Drive renders colours
10:18<Flygon>It uses an RGB system that... is non-standard, and also can display colours outside of it's master palette
10:18<Flygon>Which sounds like it makes zero sense @_@
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11:20<murr4y>dbg: [net] 'murray' made an error and has been disconnected. Reason: 'processing map took too long'
11:21<murr4y>^ can you extend the allowed time limit, or something?
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11:22<@Terkhen>IIRC it is a setting configurable on the server
11:24<murr4y>aha, thank you
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11:49<andythenorth>I have a crash
11:49<andythenorth>but I changed newgrfs during game
11:49<andythenorth>ages ago
11:49<andythenorth>meh, bad wifi :(
11:49<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2002/
11:50<andythenorth>building a CHIPS station
11:50<@planetmaker>hm. That's the new assert as of today or yesterday. Wrong sprites accessed
11:51*planetmaker looks up to verify
11:51<andythenorth>it's happened twice, but I can't deterministically reproduce it
11:51<@planetmaker>you built head yourself?
11:51<@planetmaker>r24858?
11:51<andythenorth>yup
11:52<andythenorth>just had it a third time
11:52<andythenorth>seems related to station building, but that might be coincidence
11:52<andythenorth>r24848
11:52<andythenorth>I'm 10 revs behind
11:52<andythenorth>could just be because CHIPS is broken?
11:53<@planetmaker>ah... hm. try r24858
11:53<andythenorth>k
11:54<@planetmaker>http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/rev/2c390e8e0c97 @ andythenorth
11:54<@planetmaker>thus there's a newgrf bug lurking somewhere
11:55<andythenorth>having CHIPS known-broken might be masking other errors :P
11:55<andythenorth>I'm tempted to blame it for all problems right now
11:55<Pikka>andythenorth: just had a quick look at FISH2, not bad. :) Lack of reliability decay is an interesting choice. ;)
11:56<andythenorth>hmm
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no amount of brokenness CHIPS may cause asserts in openttd
11:56<andythenorth>probably just did that to try and clear the buy menu of old ship models quickly
11:57<andythenorth>it's not reliable, sometimes there's a gap where a ship size is missing for a few years :P
11:57<Pikka>lack of reliability decay = ships do not lose reliability between services
11:57<Pikka>:P
11:57<Pikka>yes
11:57<Pikka>you've still got a fair few with the 1870 start date...
11:58<andythenorth>maybe I could set reliability decay speed
11:58<andythenorth>maybe I don't currently
11:58<Pikka>you don't currently
11:58<Pikka>maybe
11:59<andythenorth>apparently not
11:59<Pikka>and that default hovercraft is looking more and more out of place :)
11:59<andythenorth>it will be whatever nml defaults to I guess
11:59<andythenorth>dan was redrawing that hovercraft ;)
12:00<andythenorth>there are a lot of ships in 1870
12:00<andythenorth>:P
12:00<Pikka>and I'm missing early passenger ships that aren't paddle steamers, and 19th century ships with sailing rigs, but I guess if I'm asking for them you'll tell me to draw them. :)
12:00<andythenorth>no other vehicle type has to cover sizes from 4t-1000t :)
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12:00<andythenorth>Pikka: I refer you to our canadian friend ;)
12:00<andythenorth>or coxx
12:00<Pikka>goodo :)
12:01<andythenorth>they have sent numerous, beautifully drawn, half-finished passenger steamers, packet ships, cruise liners, paddle tugs, stern wheelers
12:01<andythenorth>all of them either just 1 angle, or 8 unfinished angles :)
12:01<andythenorth>Dan is planning "SailFISH"
12:01<Pikka>code them as-is :D we can have the amazing sideways-travelling ships.
12:02<MinchinWeb>I'm trying to get my AI to work, but I keep getting the error "Your script made an error: bitwise op between 'bool' and 'bool'"
12:02<MinchinWeb>The line in question reads: "LastTile = AllTiles.top();" LastTile is an integer, AllTiles is an array
12:02<MinchinWeb>suggestions?
12:03<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> Dan is planning "SailFISH" <-- please make them seriously smaller scale than the existing sailship grf
12:03<andythenorth>they'd be FISH scale
12:03<andythenorth>it's about 1px / 1m roughly
12:04<andythenorth>not because scale matters, it just happens to be that way
12:04<Pikka>1px/1m
12:04<Pikka>isn't that long vehicles scale? ;)
12:04<andythenorth>dunno
12:04<andythenorth>have a cookie http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/fish/push/r953/
12:04<andythenorth>sets reliability to decay to 20, default value
12:04<andythenorth>I assume nml defaults it to 0, didn't check :P
12:06<@planetmaker>default for new vehicles and un-initialized properties is always 0. Both nfo and nml.
12:06<@planetmaker>defaults are only different for the existing default vehicles
12:06<@planetmaker>but that's not a property of the programming language. But of the game
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12:07<andythenorth>that's the answer there then :)
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12:13<frosch123>MinchinWeb: do you have some longer snipped of code?
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12:14<bolli>Aloha
12:18<@planetmaker>ahola
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12:42<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24859 trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp (2012-12-26 17:42:29 UTC)
12:42<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Make the dropdown handling of the adv. settings GUI more generic.
12:43<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24860 /trunk/src (3 files) (2012-12-26 17:43:35 UTC)
12:43<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Add SettingDesc::GetType().
12:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24861 trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp (2012-12-26 17:44:42 UTC)
12:44<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Put all filters for settings into a single struct.
12:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24862 /trunk/src (6 files in 5 dirs) (2012-12-26 17:47:02 UTC)
12:47<@DorpsGek>-Add: Settings type filter to adv. settings GUI.
12:48<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24863 /trunk/src (31 files in 2 dirs) (2012-12-26 17:48:25 UTC)
12:48<@DorpsGek>-Remove: Now redundant method to filter for non-local settings differing from default settings.
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12:59<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24864 trunk/src/lang/simplified_chinese.txt (2012-12-26 17:59:44 UTC)
12:59<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r24863): Update before running sed.
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24865 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2012-12-26 18:45:24 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>czech - 67 changes by Eskymak
13:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 7 changes by jpx_
13:45<@DorpsGek>german - 7 changes by planetmaker
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 7 changes by Terkhen
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14:09<andythenorth>is it bad that I just bulldoze rivers?
14:09<andythenorth>they tend to get in the way
14:11<@planetmaker>everytime you do that a kitten dies. But they die anyway...
14:12<frosch123>maybe bulldozing rivers should be forbidden, if there is no water connetion between the adjacent tiles anymore
14:12<frosch123>same would hold for canals then
14:12<frosch123>cannot remove canals if they connect rivers
14:12<frosch123>problem is with lakes though :p
14:13<@planetmaker>that would make a problem... you couldn't remove canals really ;-)
14:13<@planetmaker>what's the lake problem with connectivity?
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14:14<frosch123>well, lakes are an endpoint
14:14<frosch123>if you connect two lakes via canals, what's the end?
14:14<andythenorth>I'm not sure it's much a thing to solve tbh
14:14<frosch123>andythenorth: well, what imo needs changing is, that plain terraforming should not auto-kill rivers
14:14<frosch123>like it does sea
14:15<frosch123>you should explicitly have to bulldoze them
14:15<andythenorth>so the tile re-floods?
14:15*andythenorth tests
14:15<andythenorth>oh I see
14:15<frosch123>no, terraforming jsut fails
14:15<andythenorth>build a culvet tile :P
14:15<andythenorth>or a special class of bridge :P
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14:19<andythenorth>hmm
14:19<andythenorth>local authority is forbidding me building airports even on tiles not part of the town
14:35<frosch123>sue them!
14:35<frosch123>why did noone ever suggest that on the forums?
14:35<frosch123>there are tons of suggestions about share trading and economy
14:36<frosch123>but no suggestions about sueing towns, industries, competitors, vehicle manufacturers, customers, ...
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14:45<Rubidium>frosch123: because there are no Americans on the forum?
14:48<@planetmaker>there actually are
14:51<Rubidium>so far I never met one
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14:58<ccfreak2k>The openttd forum?
14:58<frosch123>ah, i guess it does not offer a long gamepley
14:58<frosch123>you just use your start money to patent the idea to transport cargo
15:07<frosch123>oh, wait... you can then spend the rest of the game in court to figure out whether pax are cargo
15:12<@planetmaker>:D
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15:59<andythenorth>NewCourts
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16:01<ccfreak2k>NuCourts
16:01<ccfreak2k>there's two cases wrt. pax
16:02<ccfreak2k>one is for tax reasons, the other case is to determine railroad right-of-way.
16:02<ccfreak2k>I'm not even really sure what we're talking about.
16:02<Pinkbeast>Pax clearly are cargo in vanilla OTTD given that they just get on the first train and go wherever you like. :-)
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16:20<drac_boy>hi
16:24<@peter1138>hi
16:25<__ln__>how totally wrong is it to express e.g. 18:00 in english as "at eighteen oh-oh"?
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16:44<drac_boy>just wondering about it, how do people get these users.tt-forums.net/*/index.html websites/
16:44<drac_boy>websites?*
16:45<frosch123>they ask orudge about one
16:45<drac_boy>oh ok
16:45<drac_boy>is the username manually assigned or it goes by forum username?
16:46<frosch123>quite sure there is only one authentication system, so it would be the same user
16:46<drac_boy>mm
16:46<drac_boy>thanks
16:47<drac_boy>might be a good place to host my project online later when I finally want to share the progress
16:47<frosch123>if you are going for a foss license, you can also use the openttdcoop devzone
16:47<frosch123>you also get a compilefarm and stuff there
16:48<frosch123>issue trackers etc
16:48<drac_boy>don't need that but thanks :->
16:48<frosch123>you won't accept bug reports? :p
16:50<drac_boy>frosch is it also for non-openttd bugs too?
16:50<drac_boy>;)
16:51<frosch123>what?
16:51<drac_boy>heh sorry I think the humor got lost there
16:51<drac_boy>I meant patch bugs
16:51<frosch123>oh, if you need some, i can file you a dozen
16:52<@planetmaker>drac_boy: the devzone offers each project its own issue tracker. So it's an issue tracker only for your bugs.
16:52<Supercheese>Devzone would be nice if you are planning on making a largish GRF
16:52<@planetmaker>or the one of your particular project
16:52<Rubidium>isn't there already a patch tracker?
16:53<@planetmaker>"tracker" as in unmaintained wiki page?
16:53<frosch123>planetmaker: it was, o* ported it to a real tracker, and got flamed :p
16:54<drac_boy>Rubidium I could like to know that answer too
16:54<@planetmaker>he :D
16:54<frosch123>the rest was non-dev forum guys discussing whether all bugs should just be closed as not fixable (since there were no devs), or something like that
16:54<@planetmaker>I think I recall
16:54<frosch123>something along the line of "we want a stable", so now just declare it bug-free :p
16:55<frosch123>drac_boy: http://projects.tt-forums.net/projects/ttdpatch/issues
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17:02<drac_boy>heh, if there was a tab for grfs too that may had been nice
17:04<drac_boy>but anyway mmm I'll see when and if I want to ask about that user website account thing
17:18<@peter1138>*may have
17:19<Wolf01>'night
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18:06<frosch123>night
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18:13<Supercheese>"So that means you volunteer, you grabbed the code and started find your way around there and to make improvements and bug fixes already? Great!" "no. i didnt even work on this set. im just a spectator"
18:13<Supercheese>I think sarcasm is lost on some people
18:13<drac_boy>heh
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19:32<ccfreak2k><__ln__> how totally wrong is it to express e.g. 18:00 in english as "at eighteen oh-oh"?
19:32<ccfreak2k>Well
19:32<ccfreak2k>no one I have ever met would say that.
19:32<ccfreak2k>From a grammatical standpoint, it's a mixed pronunciation.
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19:38<Eddi|zuHause>i've had a "talking clock" once, which annunced :00 as "hundred"
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>which i presume is commonly used in military context
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19:41<Eddi|zuHause>whether an english person would use 24h clock is a different topic which i as a foreign person can't judge ;)
19:42<drac_boy>heh I often use 24hr too .. its too easy to confuse am vs pm anyway :)
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the time as written there would be spoken as "one-eight-hundred" then
19:43<Supercheese>thought it would be "eighteen hundred"...
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19:46<Eddi|zuHause>could be as well
19:46<Supercheese>"one eight hundred" sounds like a television commercial/advert :P
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19:49<Eddi|zuHause>oh-one-one-eight nine-nine-nine eight-eight-one-nine-nine nine-one-one-nine seven-two-five... three
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---Logclosed Thu Dec 27 00:00:29 2012