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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-27

---Logopened Thu Dec 27 00:00:29 2012
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01:15<Pikka>shhhhhh
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03:16<__ln__>02:32 < ccfreak2k> <__ln__> how totally wrong is it to express e.g. 18:00 in english as "at eighteen oh-oh"? 02:32 < ccfreak2k> From a grammatical standpoint, it's a mixed pronunciation. <--- it's being used in automatic announcements on finnish trains. but i bet it's not the only grammatical oddity there.
03:23<Pikka>in english that would be "eighteen hundred hours" or "six o'clock". :)
03:23<Supercheese>^ that
03:24<Ammler>English or military?
03:25<Pikka>yes
03:25<@planetmaker>s/or //
03:26<Ammler>well, thought, it is used in military exclusively
03:26<Pikka>please clarify "used in military exclusively"
03:26<Supercheese>Almost exclusively, but not quite
03:27<Pikka>if you mean "it is all they use in the military", then possibly, if you mean "it's used only in the military", then no :)
03:27<Ammler>where else?
03:28<__ln__>the navy?
03:28<@planetmaker>maybe travel services :-)
03:28<Pikka>maybe
03:28<@planetmaker>is the navy not part of the military, __ln__ ?
03:28<Pikka>definitely aviation
03:28<@planetmaker>ah
03:29<Ammler>he, I know "English" mainly from TV only :-)
03:29<Pikka>YBBN 270730Z 10009KT 9999 SCT023 26/20 Q1013
03:29<Ammler>and a bit from #openttd :-P
03:29<@planetmaker>sure :-P
03:29<__ln__>planetmaker: it is
03:29<Supercheese>"In Canada and the United States, the term "military time" is a synonym for the 24-hour clock. In these regions, the time of day is customarily given almost exclusively using the 12-hour clock notation, which counts the hours of the day as 12, 1, ..., 11 with suffixes "a.m." and "p.m." distinguishing the two diurnal repetitions of this sequence. The 24-hour clock is commonly used there only...
03:29<Supercheese>...in some specialist areas (military, aviation, navigation, tourism, meteorology, astronomy, computing, logistics, emergency services, hospitals), where the ambiguities of the 12-hour notation are deemed too inconvenient, cumbersome, or outright dangerous."
03:30<@planetmaker>:D
03:30<@planetmaker>"some specialist areas" (and a lengthy list follows)
03:30<Ammler>sounds like English uses it more than German ;-)
03:31<Supercheese>Trying to get the GIMP script to work, but no dice
03:31<Supercheese>this*
03:31<@planetmaker>nah. Sounds like they use it just normally ;-)
03:31<@planetmaker>Supercheese, gimp scripts don't help with time progression ;-)
03:31<@planetmaker>it's what clocks are built for :-P
03:32<Pikka>ah, german time.. the hilarity that ensues from "half" ;)
03:32<Supercheese>But I'm wasting my time trying to make it work
03:32<Supercheese>:<
03:32<__ln__>btw, finnish air force used metres rather than feet for altitude for a long time, till the end of 90s or something. how unusual is that.
03:33<@planetmaker>Pikka, it's logical really. We don't say "half past" but just "half". So half of the 8th hour is "halb acht"
03:33<Pikka>yes
03:33<Pikka>but it's not unusual for english speakers to drop the "past" ;)
03:33<@planetmaker>:-)
03:33<@planetmaker>that's unlogical :D
03:34<Pikka>mebbe
03:34<@planetmaker>language generally is ;-)
03:34<@planetmaker>but we can extend the scheme to viertel acht, halb acht, drei-viertel acht (7:15, 7:30, 7:45)
03:34<Ammler>oh, you say "half eight" and mean 8:30?
03:34<Pikka>yes
03:35<__ln__>please stop saying that, it confuses the rest of the world
03:35<@planetmaker>yes. And make a law that pi = 3.14
03:35<Supercheese>Nobody says "half eight", they say "half past eight"
03:35<Ammler>planetmaker: we (only swiss?) "viertel vor acht" not "dreiviertel acht"
03:35<Pikka>3 would be easier
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03:36<@planetmaker>Ammler, *I* do also say "viertel vor acht" and "viertel nach sieben". But it depends on where in Germany you are. Substantial areas use the time as I stated earlier
03:36<Pikka>Americans don't, maybe.
03:36<@planetmaker>confused the hell out of me when I learnt about that :-)
03:36<Pikka>@ Supercheese
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03:36<Supercheese>Yeah, I've never heard that here
03:37<Pikka>then again americans don't say "fortnight" or "wednesday week" either :P
03:37<Supercheese>Oh pffff, these Python scripts actually require you to have python installed. Who would have guessed...
03:37<__ln__>wtf is "wednesday week"?
03:38<Pikka>the wednesday after the next one. a week from wednesday.
03:38<Supercheese>@_@
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03:38<Pikka>you can have "wednesday fortnight" too :]
03:38<@planetmaker>Supercheese, gimp knows several script languages. It allows python py-gimp. But its native is the gimp-fu
03:38*Pikka goes shopping
03:38<@planetmaker>or something like that
03:39<@planetmaker>btw, Pikka: wrt town variable: iirc the concensus was rather to leave the global things to game scripts rather than to NewGRFs
03:40<@planetmaker>and that includes the map coordinates of towns
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03:41<@planetmaker>Pikka, it should be discussed when frosch is around - which supposedly won't happen anymore this year
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03:42<andythenorth>Pikka: wot no 150mph mail carriages?
03:42<andythenorth>how will I get the beer to the shop fast enough?
03:42<__ln__>so you expect frosch not to be around earlier than tuesday week
03:42<@planetmaker>super-sonic mail!
03:42<@planetmaker>__ln__, that's what you say :-P
03:43<Pikka>eh planetmaker
03:43<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: no, that would be the tuesday after the next one
03:44<__ln__>oh
03:44<Pikka>the point is that I wanted to make buildings have a particular appearance close to the centre of town, but I didn't want them to change as the town zones grew
03:44<Pikka>it's not a big deal though :)
03:44<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: read the town zone at construction time and store it in the animation state
03:45<andythenorth>hmm, close airports \o/
03:45<andythenorth>nice feature
03:45<Pikka>yeah, it's an option eddi :)
03:45<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: then only read the animation state for drawing
03:45<Eddi|zuHause>(you really should have done this for the road configuration too)
03:46<Pikka>that's a matter of opinion :)
03:46<@planetmaker>Pikka, but a building doesn't change, unless asked to change, no?
03:47<@planetmaker>if, of course, you depend on town zone, store it, as eddi suggests
03:47<Pikka>yep, I could do that :)
03:47<@planetmaker>but then, the idea of town zones is that different buildings use different town zones
03:47<@planetmaker>imho it's a wrong use of town zones, if you need to query them
03:48<@planetmaker>they should only be needed to decide the building type
03:48<Pikka>otoh I also wanted to use the town position for defining a "splodge" of buildings that aren't necessarily in the centre
03:48<Pikka>but again, I'll do things a different way, it's not important :P
03:49<Pikka>andythenorth: what locos do you have that are doing 150mph anyway?
03:49<andythenorth>well...none
03:49<andythenorth>if we're being specific :P
03:49<Pikka>:]
03:49<andythenorth>I just got class 91 available though :P
03:49<Pikka>does beer go in freightliners?
03:49<andythenorth>yes
03:49<andythenorth>but at 90mph
03:50<Supercheese>Beer goes in all the things
03:50<Pikka>better put it in a plane :D
03:50<andythenorth>considering it
03:50<andythenorth>hmm
03:50<andythenorth>also
03:50<Pikka>what's so urgent about this beer?
03:50<Pikka>I've got beer that's been sitting around for years and it's still fine :P
03:50<andythenorth>game script cargo delivery goal depends on it ;)
03:50<andythenorth>speed is of the essence
03:51<Pikka>you can't make up for speed with volume?
03:51<andythenorth>maybe, but it's harder :P
03:51<andythenorth>also....this is my fault not yours, but lots of wagons inappropriately refit to timber
03:51<andythenorth>timber / lumber / translated cargo name blah
03:51<andythenorth>e.g. hoppers etc
03:51<Pikka>hm
03:52<andythenorth>it's because lumber is defined as a bulk cargo, because MB wants it to represent wood chips
03:52<Pikka>oh
03:52<andythenorth>and there have been length discussions about it via pm, and we are where we are o_O
03:52<Pikka>well, there you go
03:52<Pikka>wood chips in a hopper :]
03:52<andythenorth>or a presflo
03:53<andythenorth>but not a polybulk hopper, oddly, where they might actually be appropriate
03:54<Pikka>eh
03:54<andythenorth>I think lumber should have been a different cargo, but that shepp has run away
03:54<andythenorth>shepp? sheep
03:54<Pikka>him too
03:54<andythenorth>the flock has bolted etc
03:54<Supercheese>the ship has set sail
03:54*andythenorth had better go and do things that avoid wifely arguments :P
03:54<Pikka>enjoy
03:55<andythenorth>and maintain children etc
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04:15<andythenorth>hmm
04:15<andythenorth>how fast is that mail emu thing?
04:15<andythenorth>maybe that's good for beer :P
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04:18<Eddi|zuHause>so sheep set sails now?
04:18<@Terkhen>good morning :)
04:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: TGV Postal :)
04:20<Supercheese>Blarg, bounding box issues
04:21<andythenorth>TGV postal not in the UK :P
04:21*andythenorth is playing by self-imposed rules as well as the GS rules ;)
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but it could go through the eurotunnel :)
04:21<Supercheese>Every time I see "emu" I think the ostrich-like bird, and not Electric Multiple Unit...
04:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: this is a good point. I can add newgrfs to a running game right? :P
04:22*andythenorth knows the answer to that
04:23<andythenorth>so anyone played / playing a FIRS 0.8.x game?
04:24<@peter1138>is it on bananas?
04:24<Supercheese>I'm bugfixing a GRF now
04:24<andythenorth>peter1138: yes
04:25<Supercheese>Is there any way to have a newobject's sprites be larger than one tile, yet still defined as only 1x1 so it doesn't take up too much space?
04:25<Supercheese>without the insane clipping issues I am currently experiencing that is
04:25<@peter1138>no, that would lead to clipping issues...
04:25<Supercheese>blerg
04:26<Supercheese>Ah well, guess it'll have to be a 2x2 with a lot of unused space
04:26<Supercheese>eh, could be worse
04:27<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: you might get away with overlapping the tile behind it
04:28<Supercheese>It's the x-extend that's killing things
04:28<Supercheese>extent*
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04:37<Supercheese>Aw crap
04:37<Supercheese>blarg, have to make it 2x2 but only use 1 sprite
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: cut it apart on compile time
04:38<Supercheese>It's animated...
04:38<Supercheese>hmmm
04:38<Supercheese>perhaps I'm going about this all wrontg
04:38<Supercheese>wrong*
04:38<andythenorth>what are you trying to do?
04:39<andythenorth>where's your spritesheet?
04:40<Supercheese>on my hard drive :P
04:40<andythenorth>well I can't see it there ;)
04:44<Eddi|zuHause><Ammler> planetmaker: we (only swiss?) "viertel vor acht" not "dreiviertel acht" <-- "dreiviertel acht" you commonly hear in eastern germany
04:44<Supercheese>Well, I've got some sprites of circling seagulls, their max extent is about 128x78 pixels
04:45<Supercheese>I've got the animation working fine, but trying to make them a 1x1 object leads to massive clipping issues
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: make all your sprites exactly the same size. makes things a hell easier
04:45<Supercheese>They are all 128x78, I mean
04:45<Supercheese>with transparency
04:46<Supercheese>some sprites clip and others don't, hence the "max extent"
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: then in the action1/realsprite, you clip the sprite into three for the left/center[lower]/right tile
04:46<Supercheese>no way to leave it all as one big sprite?
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>no
04:47<Supercheese>Well, hmm
04:47<Supercheese>how to go about this in NML, then...
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>but you put that into one teplate, and then forget about it
04:47<@peter1138>herpderp
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>*template
04:50<Supercheese>Seems even if I oversize the x/y/z extents it still clips
04:56<andythenorth>Supercheese: it's not the usual way we do it, but you could leave the sprites as one single image on the sprite sheet, no slicing, no gaps or borders
04:56<andythenorth>then slice out the realsprites from that
05:00<@peter1138>going over the tile edge will always clip
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05:01<Supercheese>Yes, looks like I'll have to do something like that
05:02<Supercheese>quadruple my spritesets
05:02<Supercheese>heh
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05:33<Pikka>tai towns are starting to look good in the 19th century
05:33<Pikka>except the roads :)
05:33<Supercheese>Sooo, how do I work Spritelayouts with multitile objects?
05:34<Supercheese>Does a 2x2 object need only 1 layout (per anim frame) or 4?
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: roadtypes!
05:34<Pikka>Eddi|zuHause: If you insist!
05:36<Supercheese>I don't think I'm fully understanding this "compose an object from multiple sprites" deal
05:36<Pikka>what sort of object is it, Supercheese?
05:36<Supercheese>Some circling seagulls
05:36<Pikka>in any case it's not really "compose an object from multiple sprites", it's "compose an object from multiple tiles"
05:37<Supercheese>I have 24 frames of 128x78 pixels
05:37<Pikka>object, industry, ?
05:37<Supercheese>object
05:37<Supercheese>Ironically, the animation control is the easiest part, I just borrowed some of OGFX+ wind turbine code
05:38<andythenorth>roadtypes schmoadtypes
05:38<andythenorth>one day peter1138 might deign to code it ;)
05:39<andythenorth>then I can make a wizard of oz game script
05:39<Supercheese>Road: Yellow Brick
05:41<Supercheese>Are there any Multi-tile animated Newobjects whose code I can inspect?
05:41<Supercheese>already existing, I mean
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: MB has a salt industry with an animated railway. but i think he had issues with multi-tile objects and synchronisation
05:43<Supercheese>Hmm, these need to be very much synchronized
05:44<Supercheese>This may be more trouble than it's worth
05:45<Supercheese>Also, it's 2:46 AM and I am getting sleepy
05:47<andythenorth>just do them one tile?
05:47<andythenorth>smaller?
05:47<Supercheese>I already have a small variant, I was hoping for a large one as well
05:48<Supercheese>perhaps it will have to be less large
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05:48<Supercheese>By this point, it's become a "I WILL make this work, dammit"-type endeavor ;)
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: was there anything helpful about my var80 reply?
05:50<andythenorth>hmm, if we had roadtypes...mad max GS
05:50<andythenorth>'the road warrior'
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05:51<Pikka>"OpenTTD will implicitly treat this as a DWORD sized variable", that's helpful :)
05:51<andythenorth>maybe Pikka is the road warrior?
05:52<Pikka>I used to be, but then I gave up bus driving :)
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05:54<andythenorth>that means you were priscilla, queen of the desert?
05:55<Pikka>only on tuesdays
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06:01<Flygon>Gah
06:01<Flygon>How do I undisable that thingo that shows how full trains are in %?
06:02<Supercheese>Loading indicators?
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06:05<Supercheese>Weird, sometimes the clipping stops entirely
06:09<Supercheese>Well, time for sleep
06:09<Supercheese>work on this more tomorrow
06:09<Supercheese>valete omnes
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06:10<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: Ctrl+X for the transparency settings
06:10<Flygon>Oh
06:10<Flygon>Wow
06:10<Flygon>I feel like a dumbass
06:10<Flygon>Thank you, Eddi
06:11<Pikka>hmm :)
06:11<Pikka>that's why semis in egrvts are so useless
06:12<Pikka>because they carry no cargo in the front vehicle, they get no TE boost when loaded
06:12<andythenorth>because...?
06:12<andythenorth>ah that
06:12<andythenorth>I do that in BANDIT :P
06:12<andythenorth>took a bit of faff
06:12<Pikka>the articulated trucks climb hills much better because they carry cargo in the front
06:12<Pikka>:] faff is good
06:12<andythenorth>egrvts 2 is pretty good though, it's making me even less inclined to do BANDIT :P
06:13<Pikka>:}
06:13<Pikka>TaI then HOVS, right?
06:13<Pikka>UKRS update is done, Av8 update can wait...
06:13<andythenorth>the irony is, I don't really have to do anything for BANDIT, just put the set config in and it will make trucks :P
06:13<andythenorth>meh
06:14<Flygon>Oh, also, Pikka, using UKRS for the first time
06:14<Flygon>Seems quite nice, thus far :)
06:16<andythenorth>AV8 is totally done imo
06:17<Flygon>Av8 is also really good :)
06:17<Pikka>I have half a dozen more futuristic planes to add... but no hurry for those
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: need CB36 to alter tractive effort or something
06:18<Pikka>eddi: or just load an appropriate amount of cargo in the tractor
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>or that
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>but that may cause weird side-effects if not fully loaded
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>like if only the "front" half is loaded, the truck will show as empty
06:19<Pikka>will it?
06:19<Pikka>oh, you mean graphically
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes
06:19<andythenorth>it just works (tm)
06:19<andythenorth>unless frosch figures out 'views'
06:19<andythenorth>then you can drop the subtype livery thing and clean up my buy menu ;)
06:19<andythenorth>buy / refit /s
06:20<Pikka>cb36 can do TE, can't it?
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it should
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>there's no reason why it couldn't, anyway :)
06:20<Pikka>there you go, no worries then :)
06:21<Pikka>I'm not fixing egrvts though ;)
06:21<Pikka>tractive effort for ships!
06:22<andythenorth>it's solved for BANDIT, can't remember how :P
06:23<Pikka>you put the power in the trailer?
06:23<andythenorth>not for RVs ;P
06:23<andythenorth>or maybe I didn't solve the graphical issue
06:23<andythenorth>but that's probably easy, just check consist cargo
06:24*andythenorth ponders
06:24<Pikka>need some modern flats and houses...
06:24<andythenorth>autorefit for trucks might be severely over-rated
06:24<andythenorth>or at least, I've not found any use for it
06:24<Pikka>better check the default houses for sprites I can cut up :)
06:25<Pikka>autorefit in general is rarely useful IMO
06:25<Pikka>occasionally I'll carry food to a town and mail back or something
06:25<andythenorth>with cargo distribution it would be
06:25<Pikka>true
06:25<andythenorth>but I'm playing a cargo challenge GS, I don't want random cargo crap happening on my routes
06:25<Pikka>:]
06:26<Pikka>I'll have to try one of those
06:26<andythenorth>NoCarGoal is the simpler one
06:26<andythenorth>Silicon Valley is a bit more sophisticated
06:26<andythenorth>both are fun
06:26<andythenorth>it's very different to playing sandbox
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>so... there's this guy in the german forum who tried to compile with mingw, and the linker bailed on the "-mno-cygrwin" parameter... is that a known problem?
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>it "worked" when removing that from config.lib
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=5993&pid=82175#pid82175
06:35<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: I never heard of that issue, let's see
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06:37<@Terkhen>I recommend are hackers and compile it yourself. <--- google translate at its finest
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
06:38<Ammler>how does openttd decide, which baseset version to use?
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>it should be "s/are/become/"
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: it picks an installed one at random, and then remembers that setting. you can change it in gamesettings dialog
06:39<Ammler>dbg: [grf] Adding OpenGFX (940) as base graphics set
06:39<Ammler>dbg: [grf] Not adding OpenGFX (1002) as base graphics set (duplicate)
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>that's either missing a line where it added 1002 before, or it's a bug with versioning
06:41<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: I have no idea of what steps he followed to install MinGW
06:41<@Terkhen>I have not been updating the tutorial since I moved to linux, but it seems that other people did, which I hope that means that it still works
06:41<Ammler>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2004/
06:42<Ammler>if I start a openttd nightly, I get the red box
06:42<@Terkhen>it's a strange error, MinGW should recognize that flag, as it has been used by default for a long time
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: well, he claims that he followed the wiki to the letter
06:42<@Terkhen>hmm... strange :/
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>which i presume means he used mingw-get-inst
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>then he says the compiling itself worked, but the last step (i.e. linking) threw the error
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>then removing that from LDFLAGS made it output an .exe
06:45<@Terkhen>I checked in MinGW's sourceforge site, the most recent version of the installer is the same one mentioned in the wiki tutorial
06:45<@Terkhen>sounds quite strange, I have no idea of what may be causing that :P
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the installer is probably irrelevant, something changed in gcc/linker
06:46<@Terkhen>it shouldn't
06:46<@Terkhen>the tutorial explicitly mentions that you should not install the "newer" version of them
06:46<@Terkhen>the installer has a "Use pre-packaged repository catalogues" option
06:47<@Terkhen>and the tutorial asks you to use that one
06:47<@Terkhen>if he selected "use most recent"
06:47<@Terkhen>or updated the compilers with mingw-get-inst, he did not follow the tutorial to the letter
06:47<@Terkhen>a few months ago, updating to MinGW's most recent version of gcc triggered a compilation error
06:48<@Terkhen>that may have changed now to different errors
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07:12<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause^
07:12<@Terkhen>bbl
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: he claims he chose that option about "use prepackaged"
07:14<@Terkhen>no idea then, sorry :(
07:16<+michi_cc>-mno-cygwin should not be necessary at all for nativ win32 mingw, and is not supported for cygwin-mingw's for quite some time now, as they package a real cross compiler now.
07:17<+michi_cc>I.e. you compile for i686-pc-mingw32-g++ and not g++ -mno-cygwin since Cygwin 1.7.x releases.
07:18<+michi_cc>Our config.lib should probably be fixed.
07:26<andythenorth>FIRS Arctic Basic has a lumber yard as source of engineering supplies. But main destination is oil rigs / wells.
07:27<andythenorth>not convinced a lot of timber is needed there
07:27<andythenorth>maybe I should do a new industry - rig supply yard
07:32<Pikka>golf ball factory
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>http://24.media.tumblr.com/5440941474941baeea1bf7ed17fc61e6/tumblr_mfnv63d3Ay1qdlh1io1_400.gif
07:34<@peter1138>oh dear
07:34<andythenorth>Pikka: what are the inputs?
07:35<Pikka>rubber and dimples
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>"snob economy" :p
07:41<__ln__>when did the englishmen mess up the meaning of the word 'actual'? in other languages the respective word means 'current', not 'real'.
07:46<Enemy>smart elephant
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07:47<andythenorth>__ln__: orly? :) interestink
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07:47<andythenorth>is that actually true?
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>Enemy: you are what you eat :)
07:47<andythenorth>lol
07:48<andythenorth>never let it be said that germans aren't funny :)
07:48<Pikka>poor AI... 5-tile long train hauled by a coppernob, railway built straight up a mountain :)
07:48<andythenorth>give it rack rails
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that sentence actually rhymes in german, so it must be true :p
07:49<andythenorth>most of the germans I know are funny, dunno why there is a misconception about it :P
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07:50<Vinnie_nl>Hello people
07:50<Vinnie_nl>if you didn't know yet
07:50<Vinnie_nl>the binaries site is probably down
07:50<Vinnie_nl>http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r24850/openttd-trunk-r24850-macosx-universal.zip
07:50<Vinnie_nl>404
07:50<__ln__>can't be down if it's 404
07:51<Pikka>oh, it didn't matter that the railway went straight up a mountain
07:51<Pikka>the company went bankrupt before the first train got to it :)
07:51<andythenorth>Vinnie_nl: r24865 works for me
07:51<__ln__>andythenorth: it is actually true.
07:52<andythenorth>r24850 404s
07:52<andythenorth>__ln__: that's actually interesting ;)
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>if i browse through dict.leo.org for translations for "aktuell" it says: EN: current, FR: actuel/actuelle, ES: actual, IT: attuale, RU: актуа́льный
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>(i left out chinese, because it's too far removed)
07:58<andythenorth>wonder if goods -> ensp is a valid chain
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>why not?
07:58<andythenorth>might be
07:58<Enemy>Eddi|zuHause: in that case, not so smart
07:58<andythenorth>I wanted to do clay -> (ensp) drilling mud
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>Enemy: well, it's a "smartphone" :)
07:59<andythenorth>but then I have clay pit -> ensp -> clay pit loop
07:59<andythenorth>those loops are verboten
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>why?
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>what's different than ore mine -> ensp -> ore mine?
08:00<andythenorth>that one's verboten too ;)
08:00<andythenorth>there iirc no single-step chains to make ensp or fmsp
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>can't have feedback loops without loops :p
08:01<andythenorth>must be two links in the graph :)
08:01<andythenorth>so...lots of petrol in this economy, but it doesn't get converted to ensp or fmsp. Maybe I'm missing the obvious...
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: for "ensp" being a generic cargo, you have too specific ideas about it :=)
08:02<Pinkbeast>There was a FIRS where forges in towns took the output of iron ore mines and made ENSP which the mines accepted, surely?
08:02<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yeah fair point. I'm less bothered about actual realism of timber - > oil industry
08:02<andythenorth>more bothered about having another source of ensp in my game :P
08:03<andythenorth>Pinkbeast: old version, deprecated chain ;)
08:03<andythenorth>this arctic basic economy is quite fun though. Much less brain-boggling than full firs
08:03<@peter1138>damn it, i need yacd
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: agreed :)
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: could try cargodist though, it's fairly up-to-date
08:04<Pikka>surprise inclusion in 1.3.0! \o/
08:04<Pinkbeast>andy: yeah, I had a bit of a hiccup when it changed (yes, I know, if I replace newgrfs midgame it is all my own fault)
08:04<@peter1138>never!
08:04<Pikka>sometimes
08:05<Pikka>oh dear
08:05<Pikka>aiai has looked at how slow horse wagons are, and decided it needs 116 of them to service this forest
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's a fairly logical conclusion :)
08:07<Pinkbeast>That's basically how EGRVTS horsies are - in particular sometimes you end up with horse trams just because they are a little shorter by virtue of having fewer horsies.
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>we need eGRVTS horses as separate GRF...
08:08<Pinkbeast>... RV routing does not nicely handle many vehicles arriving at a station with many bays, though. :-(
08:08<Pikka>oh, right
08:08<Pikka>realistic rv acceleration doesn't help :)
08:08<Pikka>0hp, 0te
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes, eGRVTS 2 supposedly fixes that
08:09<Pinkbeast>I just switch to realistic when the horse trams go away.
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>but i haven't followed the discussion
08:09<Pinkbeast>I think the detail of horse drays going from 0 to 8 mph slightly too quickly is one I can overlook
08:11<@peter1138>hmm, which island to start on
08:12<andythenorth>Pinkbeast: if you replace one version of FIRS with an incompatible newer version, all bets are off :P
08:12<Pinkbeast>It all worked out # although yes I would have had nothing to complain about if it did not etc etc
08:12<Rubidium>Vinnie_nl: there has never been a r24850 nightly and as such it does not exist
08:12<Vinnie_nl>Rubidium: Thank you
08:14<Rubidium>where did you get that URL from?
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08:15<Vinnie_nl>i play on openttdcoop and they are playing with that version atleast that is what there topic says
08:16<Rubidium>so openttdcoop is just providing invalid URLs
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08:17<andythenorth>Vinnie_nl: just compile it ;)
08:17<Vinnie_nl>i'm not familiar with what there scrips are behind their IRC channel
08:17<Vinnie_nl>If i only know how
08:17<andythenorth>got macports installed?
08:17<andythenorth>got the OS X developer tools?
08:18<Vinnie_nl>no but it doesn't matter anyway
08:18<Vinnie_nl>openttdcoop members also see that that version doesn't exist so they are upgrading to newer trunk
08:18<andythenorth>first time to compile is about 10 or 12 steps
08:18<andythenorth>after the first time, it's 1-2 steps
08:19<Vinnie_nl>i read something on the wiki that required you to download like 2 gb of tools to compile
08:20<andythenorth>something like that yes
08:22<Ammler>Rubidium: it was caused by failed update
08:23<Rubidium>it looks more like someone that expected that trunk at revision of 1.3.0-beta1 tag equals that tag tried to 'update' to 1.3.0-beta1
08:24<Ammler>just getlocation patch doesn't apply anymore
08:24<Ammler>which we use for the "webcam" :-)
08:25<Ammler>no clue, maybe someone tried to update manually...
08:26<Ammler>as the automatic update script just checks finger
08:26<Rubidium>it really smells like it
08:27<Ammler>after a revert patch of getlocation, automatic script works again
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08:30<@Alberth>hi hi
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08:49<andythenorth>hi Alberth
08:49<@Alberth>another survivor of the net-split :)
08:50<Enemy>never forget!
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08:53<Eddi|zuHause>apparently i didn't survive...
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08:54<Pikka>:}
08:54<Pikka>okay, quick straw poll;
08:54<Pikka>all OpenTTD "cities" become TaI "cities"
08:55<andythenorth>yes
08:55<@peter1138>do de do de dum, do de do de dum, do doo do do doo do de do de dum
08:55<andythenorth>oops
08:55<Pikka>but should /only/ OpenTTD "cities" become TaI "cities"?
08:55<andythenorth>hmm, this laggy irc is laggy
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: doesn't have to
08:55<@peter1138>that would probably be less confusing
08:56<Pikka>that's what I was thinking, peter1138
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: would create 3 different "town sizes"
08:56<@peter1138>oh map generator, why do you have to place the two biggest towns on two tiny islands
08:56<andythenorth>silly map generator is silly
08:56<andythenorth>the spec said 'random', right?
08:56<Flygon>Because it thinks that the Isle of Man has London on it and yeah
08:57<@peter1138>so what version of grfcodec do i need to compile ottd with?
08:57<@peter1138>[GRF] Assembling openttd.nfo
08:57<@peter1138>Error on sprite 3320.
08:58<@peter1138>using grfcodec r950
09:00<@peter1138>ah that's nforenum
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09:00<@peter1138>even so
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09:02<@peter1138>//!!Error (141): ID 08 out of valid range (00..07).
09:02<@peter1138>hm
09:03<@peter1138>do i need a magic version of nforenum?
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09:07<Pikka>openttd.grf isn't, strictly speaking, a newgrf, is it peter1138?
09:08<Pikka>so why renum it?
09:08<@peter1138>yes
09:08<@Alberth>for me r950 works
09:08<Pikka>alright then :)
09:08<@Alberth>(grfcodec)
09:08<Ammler>well, grfcodec does respect that,you see commits specially for Action5
09:09<@peter1138>Pikka, it just has a special id so that you can't add it as one
09:09<Pikka>k :)
09:09<@Alberth>except my openttd.grf is marked as 'modified' w.r.t. the one in the VCS
09:11<@peter1138>gah i hate dale's coding style :S
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09:16<Pikka>hmm
09:16<Pikka>town halls you reckon, andythenorth?
09:16<Pikka>and country houses...
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09:18<andythenorth>country houses :)
09:18<Pikka>and a 19th century road mockup for the screenshots...
09:20<Pikka><Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: would create 3 different "town sizes" <- I have 6 :)
09:21<Pikka>three of which are "cities"
09:22<@peter1138>ok...
09:22<@peter1138>apparently i had a ~/.nforenum directory. i wonder wtf that is all about
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i think i once had that problem as well :)
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>then it used totally outdated data files, and nothing worked
09:25<@peter1138>but you never created that yourself did you?
09:25<@peter1138>who comes up with this crap? :S
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: at least i don't remember doing it :)
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09:32<@peter1138>and yeah, now my ottd is modified when it's not :p
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09:45<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: openttd's "M" flag should not depend on that
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>it should only consider changes in src/
09:47<Rubidium>peter1138: the .nforenum directory was created by nforenum (old versions), now it isn't created anymore
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but it's still used when it's there
09:48<Rubidium>make sure nforenum is the same version as grfcodec; if that is not the case, you probably have a second install of nforenum since nforenum is packaged with grfcodec
09:48<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: ofcourse ;)
09:48<Pikka>teehee @ town names
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: which creates the problem of outdated datafiles being used
09:48<Pikka>"Accchurch" and "Accchester Falls"
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09:51<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: it should not only consider changes in src/; it would make storing tests in VCS quite useless :)
09:52<@Alberth>or rather expected test-results ;)
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: ?
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i mean attaching "M" to the version text
09:54<@Alberth>so if I mess up the grfcodec program, it will not show it as that you run a 'weird' version?
09:54<@Alberth>not sure how that's useful :)
09:54<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it's done for consistency's sake
09:55<@peter1138>have i messed up grfcodec then?
09:55<@peter1138>cos i'm running an M version apparently
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: different baseset should not affect network compatibility
09:57<Rubidium>peter1138: hmm, my just updated grfcodec has the same issue
10:01<Rubidium>seems to be r949
10:01<Rubidium>"Container v1 only allows verbatim data up to 127 bytes"
10:02<Rubidium>apparantly we hit the 128 byte limit somewhere in the GRF
10:04<Rubidium>yay for slightly incorrectly reversed engineered specifications ;)
10:04<Rubidium>for now just revert those four files I'd say (it shouldn't recompile them yet)
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10:14<Lakie>I have a bit of an odd question, how are final costs calculated (formulae wise)?
10:15<Rubidium>x*y>>z I'd reckon
10:15<Lakie>Ok, given x,y,z are?
10:16<Rubidium>y being the base price (inflation corrected each month)
10:16<Rubidium>z being some constant for fixed point math
10:16<Rubidium>x being the the 'input' price
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10:16<Lakie>Heh, the factor.
10:18<Lakie>So still uses occasional magic numbers (z), heh.
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10:20<Rubidium>though... that z is mostly in cargo payment, otherwise it seems to be generally 0
10:20<Rubidium>and what final costs did you think of?
10:20<Lakie>I'm pretty sure looking at other costs it must make a differene
10:20<Lakie>Purchase and running costs.
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10:25<Rubidium>purchase seems to be mostly x*y
10:26<Lakie>I'm assuming the base cost is divided earlier then, 400,000 doesn't seem to be 1.
10:26<Lakie>More along the lines of a factor of 128.
10:26<Rubidium>running cost seems to be x*y*(percentage of year running)
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10:27<drac_boy>hi
10:27<Lakie>Hey
10:28<Lakie>Okay that makes sense, loioking at both I suspect the base costs on the wiki are based around middle factor of 128. With y being basecost / 128?
10:31<Rubidium>hmm...
10:31<Rubidium>don't see the shift anywhere in the 'base' code
10:32<Lakie>Okay, maybe I'm getting the base cost wrong, wiki said ($) 400,000?
10:32<Lakie>I think it's stored in pounds in the base code but probably wrong
10:33<Rubidium>where on the wiki?
10:33<Rubidium>oh, I see a _cur.grffile->price_base_multipliers[price] = min<int>(factor - 8, MAX_PRICE_MODIFIER);
10:34<Rubidium>so it looks like a divide by 256
10:37<Rubidium>the wiki says NewBaseCost = OldBaseCost * 2^(n-8), where n is the value of property 08. for the cost base multiplier
10:38<Rubidium>ciao
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10:51<dihedral>hello
10:55<drac_boy>hi dihedral
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11:07<bluephase>Hi all, is there anyway I can turn off the wheel mouse zoom function?
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11:12<dihedral>destroy the wheel :-P
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11:13<dihedral>sorry - i was just kidding, there should be a setting somewhere with which you can control the wheel, i think - or was that only for OS X in order to switch between zooming and scrolling?
11:13<bluephase>well, its a apple mouse, so there is no wheel! its monitors the movement on the top and i keep zooming out
11:13<@Terkhen>IIRC there is an advanced setting that does that
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11:59<andythenorth>hmm
12:00<andythenorth>engineering supplies from a port?
12:00<andythenorth>export goods, alcohol
12:00<andythenorth>import engineering supplies?
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12:00<andythenorth>this is for a basic economy, with limited cargos / industries
12:00<drac_boy>I don't see why not?
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12:12<Pikka>town sets are so fun...
12:12<Pikka>to test each little tweak, you have to start a game, build a train, and let it run for 50 years...
12:14<@Terkhen>I remember that it was possible to run OpenTTD from the console with AIs without GUI, that should make the process a bit less painful :P
12:16<Pikka>I just turn off the pallete cycle and park the view in the corner of the map zoomed in
12:17<Pikka>runs at about 3 months / sec
12:18<@Terkhen>oh, ok :)
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12:35<Evropi>does OpenTTD ever plan to ship with an AI
12:36<Evropi>also I just logged in and I got a 404 error :(
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12:37<Evropi>should have gone to 'Central User Management'
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12:38<@Terkhen>Evropi: shipping with an AI would require choosing the "best" AI, which is something in which every player will have a different opinion :)
12:39<Pikka>also, the "best" ai is currently a bit like the "best" way to poke yourself in the eye
12:39<Evropi>well, right now there are two types of AIs: hideously difficult ones for a first-time player (or someone used to ye olde TTD) and and painfully incomplete ones
12:39<Pikka>yes
12:39<Pikka>which type would you like included?
12:39<Evropi>there is a third one that tried to emulate ye olde TTD's AI, but it is incomplete. Does the job well though
12:40<Evropi>you should create a complete, relative easy AI to play against. it is too confusing, a friend of mine tried openttd and gave up on it, I recommended it to him later and told him that you actually can play against the computer
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12:45<Evropi>aaaaand silence.
12:45<@Terkhen>Evropi: try simpleai
12:45<Evropi>I think that's the one I was referring to
12:45<Evropi>the point is, most people won't know there are other AIs and will just give up on the game
12:45<@Terkhen>besides, in this channel, 4 minutes is not silence
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12:46<@Terkhen>be more patient, conversations here go slowly :P
12:46<Evropi>it's like the game ships incomplete
12:46<@Terkhen>well, IIRC simpleAI is meant for people who have your same requests
12:46<Evropi>I'm a regular you know, just haven't been on in about a month :P
12:46<Evropi>the idea has everything wrong with it that's wrong with the concept of DLC
12:47<Evropi>the reasons for DLCs existence are time constraints in development or greed. Either way, shipping an incomplete game is a bad idea
12:47<@Terkhen>so... if we assume that the player is not able to find AIs in the online content, should we force him to play with a specific AI chosen by someone?
12:48<Evropi>no, as I illustrated with a real world use case, the user will just remove the game from the computer
12:48<Evropi>and yes, of course you should, like 0 A.D. is doing
12:49<@Terkhen>it's not the same case :P
12:49<@Terkhen>you can play OpenTTD with many different playstyles
12:49<Evropi>the 0 A.D. project created a forum thread in which people could weigh in about all the features and behaviours essential in a good AI. They uploaded the code for the AI to a repository that people could easily contribute to
12:49<@Alberth>Including without any AI
12:49<Evropi>true, but that's for advanced play... I'm pretty sure MOST people use trains, road vehicles and aeroplanes (maybe ships too if they have to!)
12:50<@Alberth>Evropi: :o you do know about the AI forum, right?
12:50<@Terkhen>that means that there are no "features and behaviours essential in a good AI" that are good for everyone
12:50<@Terkhen>for example, you get people that wants AIs that build aesthetically
12:50<@Terkhen>AIs that play to compete
12:50<Evropi>you really mean 'advanced players' when you say everyone
12:50<@Terkhen>or AIs that mock what the old AI did, mostly nothing
12:50<@Alberth>Terkhen: I prefer AIs that don't build at all :p
12:51<@Terkhen>yeah, I don't use AIs either
12:51<@Terkhen>Evropi: my point is that us (where us meant devs) do not want to make that decision for the player because every player wants a different thing
12:51<@Terkhen>if the problem is that players do not notice that they can download AIs
12:51<@Terkhen>a warning could be added to the AI window if you open it without any AIs loaded
12:51<Evropi>that's the players that actually stay though ;))) most people will never be able to experience single player
12:52<Evropi>I remember a thread on Krautchan on the matter
12:52<Evropi>they were playing it mp since forever, didn't even know you could play against the pc
12:52<Pikka>why do you think you can't play single player without AIs, Evropi?
12:52<Evropi>TTD veterans
12:52<Evropi>you can, but it feels more like a sandbox
12:52*Terkhen always plays alone without any AIs at all
12:52<@Terkhen>and I already did that when we had an AI
12:52<Evropi>so you can prep for Mp
12:52<@Terkhen>many people play OpenTTD as if it was a sandbox :P
12:52<Evropi>when you play against the pc it's much more exciting
12:53<@peter1138>s/exciting/frustrating/
12:53<@Terkhen>I agree, for some people :P
12:53<Evropi>for n00bs maybe :P
12:53<Pikka>I find watching AIs fill the map with spaghetti roads and then go bankrupt very exciting, peter1138 :)
12:53<@peter1138>exactly
12:54<@peter1138>they just don't play like humans do, heh
12:54<@peter1138>otoh, neither do openttdcoop
12:54<@Alberth>rofl
12:55<andythenorth>openttdcoop is a very advanced AI
12:55<andythenorth>probably the best imo
12:55<andythenorth>I've played against it in MP
12:55<andythenorth>it gets cross when you do things it doesn't like
12:55<andythenorth>the chat bot for it is very human-like
12:56<@Terkhen>my point is that the AI that you would choose would be hated by other players, and IMO players leave the game when a feature they do not like is forced upon them
12:56<@Terkhen>that means "an AI" for players that do not want them, or "an AI that do not suits my playstyle" for other players
12:56<Pikka>you never know, Terkhen
12:57<Pikka>Evropi might be able to write the perfect AI :)
12:57<@Alberth>I don't think you can make a choice, as it would be unfair to the other AI authors. In other words, the only alternatives are none or all
12:58<@Alberth>both options suck, imho
12:58<Evropi>fuck 'em, good game > sucking up to the people who access your API
12:58<@Terkhen>Evropi: what do you mean?
12:58<@Terkhen>Pikka: heh :P
12:58<Evropi>OpenTTD should be less of a 'generic platform' and more of a game
12:58<Evropi>Wesnoth is a good example
12:59<@Terkhen>but I like it as it is :P
12:59<Evropi>anyone here played Battle of Wesnoth? They are basically how you do such a highly developed OSS game RIGHT
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12:59<@Terkhen>why should we become more specific when we can cater to everyone?
12:59<@Terkhen>so... we are wrong? :)
13:00<Evropi>but you still will do pal! The online content menu will still be there
13:00<@Alberth>of course we are!
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13:00<Evropi>you betcha
13:00<Evropi>and if you're an elitist who wants to try experimental gameplay or something, you can always try an alternative AI. How about that?
13:00<@Terkhen>now it is obvious
13:00<@Terkhen>I'm going to do other stuff :P
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13:01<Evropi>surely I'm not the first person to raise this point right?
13:02<@Alberth>what, that the game is not written specifically for you? no you are not
13:02<@Alberth>but having a few tens of thousands of programs is a tad unmanagable
13:03<@Alberth>we're having enough trouble with just one
13:03<Evropi>Sorry, I don't understand... what d you mean by tens of thousands of programs?
13:04<@Alberth>one for each user, of course
13:04<Evropi>x----DDDDDD
13:05<Evropi>seriosly though, I don't understand the downsides to my idea, you will still have the option to pick any ai, the game will just ship with one that might just be already available
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13:06<@Alberth>(07:09:23 PM) Alberth: I don't think you can make a choice, as it would be unfair to the other AI authors. In other words, the only alternatives are none or all
13:06<@Alberth>(07:09:46 PM) Alberth: both options suck, imho
13:08<Evropi>well, I reckon they'd understand they are making APIs for a niche audience - people who want to try rail-only games as a challenge and such things
13:08<@Alberth>there are also other problems in distributing an AI along the program
13:08<@Alberth>ie who is going to fix the bugs in it?
13:09<@Alberth>Evropi: the API does more than just rail-only
13:09<Evropi>you can take an already existing one and put a big ass banner that says 'help develop the ai that ships with the game'
13:09<Evropi>I know, it was an example
13:09<blathijs>I guess shipping two or three good AI's might be an option at some point, but I guess the AIs just aren't good enough for inclusiong at this point?
13:09<Evropi>or, to keep everyone happy, create a new one though it would feel like wasted effort
13:10<@Alberth>blathijs: then you could also start to distribute some NewGRFs
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13:10<blathijs>Alberth: The argument is slightly different, since the game already ships graphics, but not an AI. But I see your point :-)
13:10<@Alberth>hi Lord Aro
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13:11<Evropi>yep, exactly, you are already shipping 3 newgrfs on windows (well, they are checked by default anyway)
13:11<LordAro>\\o
13:11<Evropi>OpenGFX and OpenSFX are distributed are NewGRFs right?
13:11<Evropi>OpenMSX too I think
13:11<@Alberth>not as part of openttd :p
13:12<blathijs>They're not NewGRFs I think, they're base sets (which are treated by the game differently)
13:12<Evropi>effectively, yes.
13:13<Evropi>ohright, yeah
13:13<Evropi>you can get them through the online content menu though
13:13<@Alberth>as you can get AIs
13:13<Evropi>so that 'modularity' is still there for what is doubtlessly core game functionality
13:14<@Alberth>to you apparently
13:14<@Terkhen>hey are base sets :P
13:15<Evropi>um nope, I installed it on linux and got it through the same menu I get everything else
13:16<@Terkhen>try to select OpenGFX through the NewGRF configuration window
13:16<Evropi>what about it
13:16<Evropi>you can't i think
13:17<Evropi>you are comparing unrelated things anyway, see I was comparing it from a more philosophical point of view. You can theoretically replace opensfx with anything you download on-the-fly, though nothing is quite as comprehensive...
13:18<Evropi>likewise, you should have an AI to have a complete experience for single player. You will be able to change or even turn that AI off completely, as you can now
13:18<@Terkhen>what AI?
13:19<Evropi>so there would be two things to doL 1. pick an AI 2. rework the game configuration so it loads the AI by default.
13:20<Evropi>I think people [completely new to OpenTTD] are expecting competitors when they start an SP game, OpenTTD does not market itself as a multiplayer-only game (eg. most arena shooters can be played SP but it's seen as practice for MP, whereas openttd is geniunely fun in SP)
13:35<Evropi>http://translator.openttd.org/en/trunk/el_GR/STR_NETWORK_ERROR_CLIENT_COMPANY_MISMATCH <-- how on earth do I translate this? Reminds me of the error messages you see in Windows (the OS), lol
13:40<Evropi>oh yeah and no developer was around to hear it last time: http://translator.openttd.org/en/trunk/el_GR/STR_LIVERY_MAGLEV <-- in the original English strings, (won't pick one for you) is written as either 'Maglev' or 'MagLev'. Please standardise
13:41<andythenorth>Evropi: you know the rules right? He who turns up with working code is declared winner
13:41<andythenorth>he who turns up with demands gets kicked / kbanned
13:41<Evropi>this isn't really about code when I don't have commit access to change 2 strings...
13:42<andythenorth>which case is more commonly used?
13:42<andythenorth>MagLev is uglier
13:42<Evropi>no idea
13:43<andythenorth>me neither, and I can't be bothered to look either
13:43<Evropi>wikipaedia renders it as Maglev sans the capitalisation
13:43<andythenorth>I would vote Maglev
13:43<andythenorth>if votes meant anything here
13:43<Evropi>WP is my bible :) (I have over 1000 edits on the English WP for a reason!)
13:44<Evropi>Alberth has a good track record of looking at changing pedantic problems with strings ;)
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>HE'S GOT OVER 1000 WIKIPEDIA EDITS!!! HE'S FAMOUS!!
13:45<Evropi>lol, that's actually nothing, I mostly do NPP and CSD work
13:45<Evropi>so it's not that visible, but thanks for the compliment :3
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13:45*andythenorth might come back later
13:45<@Alberth>bye andy
13:45<andythenorth>k thx bai
13:45<andythenorth>erm...have fun
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13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24866 /trunk/src/lang (16 files) (2012-12-27 18:46:23 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>catalan - 39 changes by Bassals
13:46<@DorpsGek>simplified_chinese - 2 changes by chenwt0315
13:46<@DorpsGek>croatian - 8 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<@DorpsGek>danish - 6 changes by Hatsen
13:46<@DorpsGek>dutch - 40 changes by habell
13:46<@DorpsGek>english_US - 7 changes by Rubidium
13:46<@DorpsGek>french - 7 changes by glx
13:46<@DorpsGek>greek - 3 changes by Evropi
13:46<@DorpsGek>italian - 7 changes by lorenzodv
13:46<@DorpsGek>korean - 7 changes by telk5093
13:46<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 8 changes by Inspirion
13:46<@DorpsGek>polish - 10 changes by wojteks86
13:46<@DorpsGek>portuguese - 81 changes by SupSuper
13:46<@DorpsGek>romanian - 35 changes by kneekoo
13:46<Evropi>:)))) it's me :DD
13:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 7 changes by KorneySan
13:47<@DorpsGek>slovak - 1 changes by JamesSVK
13:47<Evropi>oh and uhh since I forgot to change my name
13:47-!-Evropi is now known as Superuser
13:47<Superuser>Superuser was taken on opentdd :L
13:48<@Terkhen>Evropi: please open a bug report with those strings so they don't get forgotten
13:48<Superuser>ok.jpg
13:49<Ammler>hehe, beta release and translator start to work :-P
13:49<Superuser>will do after I'm done with this translation, thanks
13:49<Superuser>Eh? it's always worked pretty great here, I've found it works much better in Firefox than [insert Webkit-based browser here] by the way
13:50<Superuser>I guess FF's JavaScript interpreter... is less prone to freezing and not making you reload the page all the bloody time
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>... i was being sarcastic...
13:51<Superuser>well, at least you were accurate, you are still a good Christian, doesn't lie
13:52<Superuser>but are lies due to ignorance considered lies? guess not
13:52<@peter1138>nah, he's an Eddi, not a Christian
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>my friend is Christian...
13:53<Superuser>egg-celent, neither am I
13:53<Superuser>btw http://translator.openttd.org/en/trunk/el_GR/STR_NETWORK_ERROR_CLIENT_GUI_LOST_CONNECTION <-- I need to use the plural function twice... 'the' has multiple cases in this language. Is this allowed or will it break the build or something horribly unpredictable like that?
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i'm not even baptised or member of a church...
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13:58<Eddi|zuHause>Superuser: you can use plural more than once
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13:59<+glx> <Ammler> hehe, beta release and translator start to work :-P <-- it's an effect of global email :)
14:03<Superuser>can someone give me the context of STR_NETWORK_SERVER_MESSAGE_GAME_REASON_MANUAL (well, the whole MESSAGE_GAME_REASON context really)?
14:03<V453000>just a reason :D
14:04<Superuser>reason for?
14:04<Superuser>that's what I'm confused about
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14:20<Ammler>glx: then spam worked ;-)
14:21<Sacro>d~.
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14:38<Wolf01>hello :D
14:44<@Alberth>hello
14:45<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
14:48<Superuser>Terkhen: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5411
14:48<Superuser>sorry if I embarassed you by mentioning your name xD
14:49<@Terkhen>thanks for making the report, that way it won't get forgotten :)
14:49<Superuser>okay... I can vote for my own task, lol. Nice one flyspray
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14:55<Superuser>wow lol,OpenTTD runs on Haiku? Lol'd
14:56<Superuser>funnily enough, a linux podcast I listen to (Linux Outlaws) has gotten several write-ins about how awesome Haiku is, even from guys coming from a strong UNIX background
14:56<Superuser>Anyone actually used BeOS/Haiku? What is it like?
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15:51<@peter1138>// Looks better centred, but not yet implemented for testing purposes for peter1138
15:51<@peter1138>HMM
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16:30<andythenorth>hmm
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16:48<@peter1138>hmm!
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>mmh...
17:02<LordAro>*!mmh
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17:12<swissfan91>Evenin' all. Quick question - am I correct in thinking that OTTD only allows two construction stages? and if so - can these stages have all 5 snow transition states?
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17:13<glx>IIRC there are more than 2 construction stages
17:15<swissfan91>I see..
17:16<swissfan91>any advances on two anyone?!
17:20<Wolf01>'night all
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17:26<@Terkhen>no idea, sorry :)
17:27<LordAro>in a hex file, i have "FB"
17:27<LordAro>how can i extract that (in cpp) to get 251?
17:27<LordAro>my usual methods have failed
17:28<@peter1138>i doubt you can
17:28<glx>swissfan91: there are 4 construction stage
17:28<LordAro>peter1138: can you elaborate?
17:30<@peter1138>c preprocessing is pretty limited
17:31<LordAro>preprocessing?
17:31<LordAro>this is at runtime...
17:31<@peter1138>you said cpp
17:31<@peter1138>did you mean c++?
17:31<LordAro>indeed
17:32<@peter1138>what's a "hex file" anyway?
17:32<glx>text file with hex data ?
17:32<glx>or binary file ?
17:32<LordAro>a binary file, viewed through a hex editor
17:32<LordAro>sorry, that was unclear
17:33<@peter1138>is your c++ viewing the output of the hex editor?
17:33<@peter1138>if your c++ has the binary file open, then once you've read that FB value, you can output it as decimal easily enouhg
17:34<LordAro>the latter
17:34<LordAro>and yes, that's what i thought
17:34<LordAro>but instead of getting 251, i'm getting -5
17:35<glx>same value :)
17:35<glx>signed vs unsigned
17:35<LordAro>interesting
17:36<@peter1138>in 8 bits anyway
17:36<glx>ofc in 8 bits :)
17:36<@peter1138>maybe you wanted to treat it as unsigned
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17:36<LordAro>indeed
17:37<LordAro>ok, given a string, how would i get an unsigned char (?) from that (offset 0) ?
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17:38<glx>*string
17:38<glx>with a (unsigned char) cast maybe
17:39<@peter1138>what string?
17:39<LordAro>a std::string
17:39<@peter1138>confused :S
17:39<LordAro>:P
17:39<@peter1138>you're reading a binary file into a std::string?
17:39<LordAro>yeah, it's probably not the best solution :L
17:39<LordAro>i'll fix it later
17:39<glx>beware of the \0
17:39<LordAro>indeed
17:40<LordAro>i have exact lengths, so they're not a major issue
17:40<glx>personally I just alloc memory for that
17:41<glx>like a unsigned byte array
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17:42<LordAro>that would be an option :L
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18:10<LordAro>peter1138, glx: if you're at all interested, or at least really bored, here's my code: https://bitbucket.org/LordAro/extractdrs
18:14<@Terkhen>good night
18:14<LordAro>g'night Terkhen
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18:26<drac_boy>hi
18:26<drac_boy>any of you have any thought on the usual number of coaches in an articulated set? (general ones..not the train-specific ones like eg for tgv etc)
18:27<drac_boy>railcoaches* meh me and my fingers...been cooking too many things -_-
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18:40<Eddi|zuHause>what how why? what's a not-train-specific articulated set?
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18:41<drac_boy>sorry....my brain is a bit stuck in food mode >_< I meant general articulated coaches that could had been used by any locomotives (providing it was an express type one)
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>what's an "articulated coach" then?
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>express trains in germany occasionally have up to 14 wagons
18:44<drac_boy>like this one being a 2-car set http://wvrails.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/SP-Articulated-Coach-July-1968-adjusted-and-cropped.jpg
18:44<drac_boy>maybe I shouldn't be asking so early after cooking .. but meh lets see
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18:45<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say that these things are highly unusual...
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18:46<Eddi|zuHause>german container wagons have this 2-part setup with a "jacobs bogie" in the middle
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>the "Umbauwagen" ["rebuilt wagons"] of the 1950s in west-germany were coupled in fixed 2-wagon-units, but technically they were two separate wagons
18:49<drac_boy>is that the one where it looks like two car carrier or covered goods van coupled in sets even although they're really still individual wagon chassis'?
18:50<drac_boy>I know I've seen a few of these mainly marklin's model of them
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>and in northern germany they use so-called "married-pair wagons", which are not fixed together, but each wagon only has half of the operational modules, so you need two different ones next to each other, so one wagon can use the modules of the adjacent wagon. (you can have odd number of wagons, but you must keep the order of A-B-A-B-A...)
18:53<drac_boy>btw thanks
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>there was also the "Henschel-Wegmann-Zug", which was basically a fixed 4-wagon-set (later expanded to a 5-wagon-set "Blauer Enzian")
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>it had wagons with a round panorama lounge at the end
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19:08<drac_boy>ahhh that particular steam locomotive again!
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19:09<Supercheese>Any GIMP scripts to batch-convert images to the TTD palette?
19:10<drac_boy>mm eddi I had known about the DRG 61 .. just didn't realized its train consist was also a bit unique too
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>yes, a high-speed engine with builtin tender, built in a series of two, but rudely stopped by wartime operational cutbacks in express service
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: it was basically the steam-engine's answer to the "flying trains" (high-speed diesel trainsets)
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>on many lines, speed records of this time are still not broken to this day (operating speed, not top speed)
19:12<drac_boy>mm
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>the times of the Henschel-Wegmann-Zug between Berlin and Dresden are one of them
19:13<Kjetil>one of the cross country railways are now slower than in the steam/early diesel days
19:14<drac_boy>kjetil heh usa history book has a lot of these .. especially the fast limited-stop train from calfornia to new york ... now the best amtrak can do is not even anywhere half close to it one bit at all
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>a lot of that is due to the special historic development of berlin, though
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19:15<Kjetil>drac_boy: lowely
19:15<Kjetil>lovely*
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>the historic route from dresden to "Berlin, Anhalter Bahnhof" was blocked by "the wall", and some parts of this track are not reactivated (yet) for long-distance usage (the S-Bahn section was reactivated)
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>which means the trains now take a larger detour
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>also, they have an additional stop now
19:17<drac_boy>kjetil yeah and even canada had a few things to note too such as 100+mph services along the corridor but now the F40PH and Genesis barely even get close to that (and the jettrain that was promised twice still doesn't exist except as stored blueprints at bombardier's offices last I heard)
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>and the "Anhalter Bahnhof" was closed, now they have a new central station ("Hauptbahnhof"), but the difference of that is probably marginal
19:19<Kjetil>drac_boy: heh. The ministry for transportation announced today that nationwide highspeed trains were postponed, and they will work on improving the service around the capital
19:19<Kjetil>(Norway)
19:19<drac_boy>mm
19:20<drac_boy>Kjetil is norway where they're also laying the all-new route further closer to the sea to improve service connections? something about it having been set further back inland due to war bombing concerns a long time ago
19:20<drac_boy>or am I thinking of another nearby country now
19:20<Kjetil>I miss the days when they would commit to building a railroad which cost several times the national budget
19:21<drac_boy>Kjetil you want to know what used to cost a lot back then that it went through at least 2 bankruptions in its life? :)
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: if you talk at scales like california-new york, it doesn't make sense to offer a "fast train service", because even the fastest they could do would be trumped by an order of magnitude with planes
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19:23<Kjetil>they haven't built railroad here since the ehm.. nazist left. (minor exaggeration, but now far from the truth :P)
19:23<drac_boy>well they had it carded for like somewhere within 35 hours or so. which was enough for to leave late night and wake up to watch the mid-usa mountain scenes then sleep again and wake up stopped at the final station
19:24<drac_boy>later trains were stretched out longer... 50+ hours in some cases .. not very good idea for business :-s
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: or you can fly in 5 hours
19:24<drac_boy>try find some real food or even any sleeping time tho :)
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>for 1/5th of the price
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: i mean it doesn't make sense to try to offer such a service again.
19:26<Kjetil>+free groping by the TSA
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>the investments would far outreach the possible gains
19:26<drac_boy>eddi thats like meaning noone wants to go crosscountry without having to take their car on the road?
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19:27<drac_boy>even the one amtrak autotrain does a lot of business that they often have to turn down people at times but the gov doesn't want to provide the fund to order another complete set (its made up partially of several full-length double deck auto carrier cars from ttx just as well)
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19:27<drac_boy>Kjetil heh I have heard of some issues with TSA and the railroads before
19:28<drac_boy>even amtrak sometimes have a bit of relationship problem with them too
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: "full train" still doesn't mean it's economically balanced
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>just google for "Breisgau S-Bahn" if you want to have a laugh :)
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>it's a short-distance line that was on the brink of closing, they ordered a few railcars (RS1) and within a few years the number of passengers quadrupled
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19:30<drac_boy>Kjetil I don't even want to talk about that silly thing about uk refusing to be part of the europe zone and you wonder why the choices of destinations on eurostar is crappy :)
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>now they're operating with 6 railcars coupled together, and can't turn a profit
19:30<Supercheese>Nvm about GIMP script, found it
19:31<drac_boy>supercheese trying to convert handmade sprites into grf-compactible ones?
19:31<Supercheese>Well, I had GIMP spit out a bunch of .pngs
19:31<Supercheese>but they weren't properly palletized
19:31<drac_boy>oh ok
19:32<Supercheese>so I wanted to batch convert them to the DOS palette, and I found a script to do so
19:32<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=47530&start=80#p934898
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: beware of magic flickering pixels
19:32<Supercheese>Yes, fortunately my sprites are nowhere near the action colors
19:32<Supercheese>also, I could simply have used a no-action-color palette to avoid that ;)
19:33<drac_boy>hmm ok thinking about it I'll not bother with articulated anything .. except for the one early express diesel railcar consist I've somewhat partially drawn yet
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: just saying...
19:33<Supercheese>Yes, sound advice :)
19:33<Supercheese>(or, well, graphics advice :P )
19:34<Flygon>Eddi: Sounds just like the VLocity train here
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: several people fell in this trap before :)
19:34<Supercheese>As have I...
19:34<Flygon>VR / V/Line's had been consistantly falling from 1950 to 2004 here
19:34<drac_boy>hi flygon-from-the-country-of-crappy-failing-trains
19:34<drac_boy>how're you anyway? heh
19:35<Supercheese>Upside-down as usual, I presume :P
19:35<Flygon>Then they introduced the VLocity train... and patronage EXPLODED because everyone thought they were bullet trains (and they did, indeed, bring improved timetables, and they also helped upgrade some lines)
19:35<Flygon>Because of this, they're now a huge budget liability because they weren't intended to be the primary train in Victoria (partially due to maintainence costs)
19:36<Flygon>drac_boy: Am well
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19:40<drac_boy>do you always have to use cargo class for rail wagons? just asking
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: the RS1 railcar doesn't quite match the description of a bullet train :)
19:40<Flygon>Eddi: Neither does the VLocity train. But the Govt hyped the inaccurate shit out of it.
19:41<Flygon>160km/h on Victorian tracks, theoretically could go 200km/h if given good conditions
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: you don't have to use cargo classes. you can make wagons for each cargo individually
19:41<drac_boy>yeah thats what I had thought, thanks
19:41<drac_boy>wanted some wagons to be specific regardingly of industries used
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: but that will make it difficult if an industry set introduces a new cargo
19:42<drac_boy>mm not too worried about that one for now...just getting it work first then figure out future bugs next :)
19:43<Flygon>I'd bet money the RS1 matches 160km/h :p
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: you should have a wagon for each cargo class (or more than one), then you can have special wagons for individual cargos
19:43<Flygon>Oh, 120km/h... geeze. This thing's beaten by a Sprinter @_@
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_Regio-Shuttle_RS1
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19:43<drac_boy>Sprinter < Super Sprinter
19:43<drac_boy>:p
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19:44<Flygon>drac_boy: V/Line probably ripped the name from Super Sprinter :p
19:45<Flygon>http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4006/4699035755_7be584dda1_z.jpg 130km/h (145km/h w/ospeed) :p
19:47<drac_boy>can I ask you something re grf industries flygon?
19:47<Flygon>Sure, but I'd probably be unhelpful x3
19:48<drac_boy>heh
19:48<drac_boy>what do you think of towns having a warehouse (ecs have something rather similar after all) that accepts things like steel etc?
19:49<Flygon>That's actually a pretty sensical idea
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19:50<drac_boy>mm ok then
19:52<Flygon>Eddi: I find it intolerably unbelievable that Germany is capable of making slower DMU's than Australia @_@
19:52<Flygon>What the hell, Germany?
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: it's meant for small branch lines
19:53<Flygon>It wouldn't have been ever through routed on a mainline?
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: often these lines have speed limits of 80 or 60 km/h anyway, sometimes even lower
19:53<Flygon>Hmm...
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: even on a mainline it would be faster than most freight trains
19:54<Flygon>Here, you'll get trains through routed quite often, and most pass. lines are at least of 100km/h stanard (only reason it'd be lower is because of level crossings)
19:54<Flygon>Oh, wow...
19:54<Flygon>Germany and Australia are very very different countries
19:54<Flygon>Mainline freight would go over 100km/h here
19:54<Flygon>Most locomotives are designed for at least 115km/h here
19:55<Flygon>Perhaps the two country/state's rail systems just work differently?
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>freight trains are usually 100km/h nowadays, some aiming for 120km/h
19:55<drac_boy>flygon what about clay mine >> kilns >> sell to town as GOOD cargos?
19:56<drac_boy>I'm still doubting that idea...especially because its a low production industry in first place
19:56<Flygon>(non-passenger lines here do tend to be limited to 40 to 80 km/h here, though)
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>mainline passenger service is aiming towards 160km/h
19:56<Flygon>drac_boy: Change clay to very very wet mud coal and you have a Victoria scenarioo :p
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>express trains 249km/h, with a few exceptions at 300km/h
19:56<Flygon>srs though, not a bad idea
19:57<Flygon>Eddi: The ICE is the envy of the world, let me reassure you x3
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: over here everybody is complaining how the ICE is inferior to the TGV
19:57<Flygon>Pfft
19:57<Flygon>Is that just because it's always 5 minute late?
19:58<Flygon>Germans gonn hate V/Line's VLocity services then
19:58<Flygon>(V/Line tends to be held up by Metro's EMUs, they share tracks)
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>because it's always late, because it stops in every small province town, because the new trains don't get approved, because airconditioning breaks in summer, because ...
19:59<Flygon>That last one is unacceptable
19:59<Flygon>Your summers aren't very hot at all! :p
20:00<Flygon>Well, even more reason for them to hate V/Line
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: the airconditioning was aimed at temperatures of 40°C, the last two summers were 42°C
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>or something like that
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20:01<Flygon>VLocity trains have to stop at small towns often here, too. Mainly for political reasons. I could argue that trains get approved too often, though, instead of a 160-225km/h Diesel locomotive design being approved (ICE-D plzkthx :p)
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>after a few people collapsed for heat-exhaustion, they started to close down wagons with broken airconditioning
20:01<Flygon>(VLocity is a mantainence nightmare)
20:01<Flygon>Oh, geeze
20:01<Flygon>42c... is actually pretty rough
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>which means more upset people because their seat reservations fail
20:01<Flygon>You won't get heat exhaustion here so much as very very uncomfortable people, though
20:01<drac_boy>flygon the problem is that I'm already using clay for something else ... so I was just wondering :)
20:02<Flygon>I suspect that if you've lived through 40c+ days consistantly, you get used to it
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>and the rest of the train is overfull
20:02<Flygon>I've never seen a VLocity carriage's aircon actually fail, though... perhaps they have better aircons?
20:02<Flygon>drac_boy: Clay can have multiple uses
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: if it's 40°C on the outside, it'll be much warmer inside a train where you can't open a window
20:02<drac_boy>flygon .. I already have it suggested for bricks
20:03<drac_boy>so I'm just wondering about pottery-related goods too or not
20:03<Flygon>Eddi: Your windows aren't even strongly tinted?
20:03<Flygon>drac_boy: Can't primary industries have multiple secondary industries?
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: the trains are white, the windows are tinted. it's still getting warm in a wagon with 100 people inside and the sun shining on it
20:04<Flygon>Hmm...
20:04<Flygon>Perhaps the aircons in Germany are just weaker?
20:04<drac_boy>flygon I'll prefer to keep the cargo list small .. so if clay can get reused somewhere else too thats good :)
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>they promised the new airconditioning systems will tolerate 45°C :)
20:05<Flygon>drac_boy: Good point
20:05<Flygon>( http://www.ptua.org.au/files/2008/bike-ban-small.jpg As a side note, when Metro tried to ban bicycles from trains... passengers rebelled)
20:05<Flygon>Eddi: Only 45c? That's unacceptable
20:05<Flygon>Tolerate 55-60c and then you're getting somewhere
20:06<Flygon>I'm pretty sure that the VLine trains here are designed for that, due to the long distances they take... basically, it's a necessity
20:06<Flygon>Metro EMUs and Yarra Trams aren't so lucky... aircon failure is rampant
20:06<Flygon>Partially due to the age of the rollingstock, and in the case of the trams, it's very difficult to fit high power aircons onto them
20:07<Flygon>Trams didn't used to have aircons, but they used to have every single window openable (the airflow really helped cool things down before the 90s)... but OH&S bans that now :(
20:08<Flygon>One of the stupidest cases I've seen though, is Comeng carriages simultainiously having an aircon set to max on one end of the carriage, and heater set to max on the other
20:08<Flygon>If I didn't know any better, I'd say they're trying to make a cyclone
20:08<Eddi|zuHause>maybe they needed the air circulation inside :)
20:09<Flygon>Hahaha :p
20:09<Flygon>As a sidenote to before
20:09<Flygon>http://www.vgr.com.au/gallery/photo/headers/Dsc06908.jpg V/Line so tinted, it reflects everything :p
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>if you have space problems, you could exchange all heaters for airconditionings and back every half year :)
20:10<Flygon>That'd never happen
20:10<Flygon>The Victorian Government would never be willing to cough up the cost, and there's a lack of both depot capacity and workers
20:10<Flygon>Using tram stops as depots isn't unusual
20:12<Flygon>...oh geeze
20:12<Flygon>http://www.flickr.com/photos/lc501/8303523650/ V/Line attempted to get rid of semaphores across their entire network (for sighting reasons)... as soon as they dwadle off their network? @_@
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>"one of the next signals may be red" doesn't sound like good semantics ;)
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, there are "main signals" and "advance signals", where the "advance signal" indicates what the next main signal says, at stopping distance
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>between ~700 to ~1300m ahead, depending on speed limit
20:21<drac_boy>heh this reminds me of a particular special classic trains issue centered around fast trains that I didn't keep anymore....
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>max speed with signals is 160km/h
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20:22<Eddi|zuHause>above that you need in-cab-signalling
20:23<drac_boy>one of the thing was that IC's mainline had been rated for 100mph trains which happened often especially the bananas special ... but when the signals were replaced it was only good for 79mph max (per ICC) because the original signal aspects had also told what the next block's indicator was
20:23<drac_boy>and of course PRR had their very early in-cab signal repeaters which was obvious in the GG1's interiors
20:27<drac_boy>the funny thing is one of the few accidents that caused ICC to tell the roads to either reduce to 79mph or install ATC (or was that ATS? I forgot which lettering) was of a diesel streamline that missed an orange signal and reacted too late to red signal .. right into the rear of another passenger train
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20:28<drac_boy>when they tested another train at the same place later on the automatic brakes stopped the train well short of the red signal which only gave ICC more evidence for their new rulings
20:29<drac_boy>for anyone outside usa...it was Automatic Train Control and Automatic Train Stop
20:29<drac_boy>even steam locomotives had a limited version that could set the air brake on if not properly reduced at an orange signal
20:31*drac_boy hopes I didn't bore flygon
20:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, germany has PZB (point-based train influence) and LZB (line-based train influence)
20:33<Eddi|zuHause>PZB is a magnet before each signal that engages the brakes if passed at too high speed
20:33<drac_boy>mm magnets were tried for a while over here too
20:34<Eddi|zuHause>and LZB can communicate with the train and issue top speeds and multi-block signal states
20:34<drac_boy>whats interesting tho is that the classic berlin s-bahn brake cock "ramps" are almost same as to what several railroads actually tried for some time in usa
20:34*drac_boy forgots what german actually called these so sorry about that name ^
20:34<Flygon>Sorry, was handling some stuff
20:35<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the berlin S-Bahn will have to replace those in the near future
20:35<Flygon>Victoria lacked any real sort of Automatic Train Control until... at least the 1980s
20:36<Flygon>And I can only recall it becoming widespread around 2004, due to the RFR projec
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>because it doesn't fulfill all new regulations about train influencing
20:36<Flygon>This is probably where the US and Aussie safety standards actually differ. USA had ATC requirements. Australia didn't.
20:37<drac_boy>yeah eddi the 'ramps' in usa eventually got completely discarded because they only either let train by or fully stopped it .. a bit too primative
20:37<drac_boy>better systems could set service brakes as a warning for orange signals etc
20:37<Flygon>eg. V/Line actually tried to use 180km/h locomotives in the 1980s using bog standard signalling (back then, a mix of semaphore and LED)
20:38<Flygon>The experiment failed when they couldn't find any railway lines of acceptable standard :P
20:38<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: PZB also does that, but it has different modes for approaching a read signal, or standing infront of a red signal and starting up
20:38<Flygon>And 180km/h was the record they set... 130km/h was the nominal speed
20:38<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: there is no "warning shot"
20:38<Flygon>(they aimed for 160km/h, I presume to compete with the XPT)
20:38<drac_boy>flygon mind you you should maybe check the Bullet signalling .. its a mix of trackside visual (low speed in stations anyway) and in-cab electronic repeater
20:40<drac_boy>eddi mm I've found that certain systems allows overriding red signals at very restrictive speeds. probably helps when its due to signal problem and the next signal is green anyway
20:41<drac_boy>that does remind me of wondering why certain modern train signalling seem to fail at low speeds
20:41<drac_boy>like there was that one time a NS train sideswiped another train because it was at below 40kph when trying to rejoin the mainline which rendered the automatic controls inoperative
20:42<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: ETCS has "balises" every few meters, so if you have very low speed, you run into a timeout before you reach the next "balise"
20:43<Flygon>drac_boy: I'm quite familiar with it
20:43<Flygon>It's part of the reason the VLocity trains are limited to 177km/h, iirc
20:43<Flygon>Because V/Line is terrified sick of an accident happening due to poor LED sighting
20:44<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: a few years ago there was an accident in germany where sand isolated the wheels of a standing engine, so the track-occupation-circuit didn't trigger
20:44<Flygon>Eddi: You mean New South Wales, right?
20:44<Eddi|zuHause>now they issued a ruling that you may not use sand for braking if below 40km/h and less than 9 axles
20:44<Flygon>There was a steam tour going on, train stalled going up-hill, so they sanded the fuck out of it, and continued on up-hill
20:44<Flygon>Cue track circuits failing
20:45<Flygon>And a rail accident happening with... DD EMU's, iirc
20:45<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: last time i checked, new south wales wasn't in germany :p
20:45<Flygon>I'd have to check with Hendikins, he knows more about this than me
20:45<Flygon>Eddi: Exact same cause of accident
20:45<Flygon>Sand causing circuit failure
20:48<drac_boy>I can't even find the name of the accident but I did find one photo of it tho...
20:48<drac_boy>http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3232/2931611964_7fa09e6935_o.jpg THAT ... thalys had the usual right of way on the mainline .. the NS train was below 40kph and supposed to stop for red signal that joined it onto the mainline .. but .. nope!
20:49<drac_boy>0_o
20:50<drac_boy>and looking at it closely the NS train apparently still has its front axles on rails .. just badly tilted :->
20:50<drac_boy>can't say the same of the thalys .. its clearly off
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: sounds like the train-influence-system not prepared for starting up when facing red signal
20:50<Flygon>...
20:50<Flygon>Jeeze
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20:50<Flygon>You can tell how much lighter the Thalys is @_@
20:50<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause yeah .. like I said .. the system they use does not even work below 40kph by some reason
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20:51<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: several accidents like this happened in germany when a train stopped at a platform after it acknowledged the advance signal, but then started up forgetting about it
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>especially if the main signal is not visible from the platform
20:52<drac_boy>mmm I know this has nothing to do with automatics but theres a lot of stories from uk (probably easy to find only because of being in english) about trains or light locomotive moves being "forgotten" on the mainline ... and the tower operator sets the signal clear for another express to enter ..... not hard to figure out what then happens :-s
20:53<Flygon>Yeowch
20:53<Flygon>That's bizarre...
20:53<Flygon>Despite how shit Metrol is, I've never seen that happen here
20:54<Flygon>A thought
20:54<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: that's why track circuits or axle counters were introduced
20:54<Flygon>Wouldn't it make sense to fit every locomotive and MU with GPS's?
20:54<Flygon>So they can be tracked live?
20:54<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: they wouldn't be introduced if there was no accident happening before :p
20:54<drac_boy>flygon well the main problem was inexperience or just simply being too overwhelmed with so many schedules that they forget about something outside their window
20:54<Flygon>Oh, I see
20:55<Supercheese>GPS should be cheap enough these days
20:55<Flygon>Here, you're more likely to just get rail gridlock :p
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>GPS is not exact enough
20:55<Flygon>Supercheese: It is. It's partially used to track the VLocity, Siemens, and Xtrapolis trains
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>it has a variance of like 10m (for civil usage)
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>so you could be two tracks off
20:55<Supercheese>if you couple it with the ground-based relays it gets much more accurate
20:55<Supercheese>I forget the term
20:55<glx>I don't think GPS can tell on which track a train is
20:56<Flygon>But older systems are still the norm.
20:56<drac_boy>flygon yeah one of the accident was when a light locomotive was stopped and freman was just walking to the tower to state that he was standing there and do they have clearance ....but the busy operator forgot about that while setting the signals for an express on umm the same track :|
20:56<Supercheese>Differential GPS or some such
20:56<drac_boy>everyone was ok..even the light locomotive's engineer
20:56<Flygon>GPS tracking also uses 3G/4G data transfer iirc
20:56<Supercheese>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DGPS
20:56<glx>then that would no longer be cheap
20:56<Supercheese>" improved location accuracy, from the 15-meter nominal GPS accuracy to about 10 cm in case of the best implementations."
20:56<Supercheese>but yeah, then cost increases
20:57<Supercheese>:S
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: yes, they use this system in road construction and stuff
20:57<Flygon>It's gotta be worth the cost if V/Line and Metro use it
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>pick a triangulation node that you know the exact position of
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>and measure the position the GPS tells you
20:58<drac_boy>flygon mind you it didn't happen that often but one of the general problem with certain semaphores was when they iced up badly to the point that they weren't operational..sometimes even in the wrong signal aspect too
20:59<Flygon>drac_boy: That's probably part of the reason V/Line got rid of semaphores... yes, stuff can ice up here :p
20:59<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: but i don't see this being practical, except maybe for tracking shunting engines within a confined local area
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20:59<Flygon>Sure, you can have 100% remotely controlled semaphores. But you're screwed if it breaks
20:59<Flygon>At least if an LED breaks, it goes blank or red
21:00<drac_boy>funny enough the The Flying Kipper from Britt-produced thomas series showed a very similar problem ... sempahore was set to green but the turnout was frozen to the wrong route...sending poor Henry right into the tail of a parked freight train
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>as the inaccuracy increases with distance to the reference point, you'd have to re-synchronize with different reference points for "mobile" engines
21:01<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: how can the signal be set if the switch can't be locked into the right position?!?
21:01<drac_boy>I don't know..maybe even the semaphore was frozen too
21:01<drac_boy>someone would have to check that particular movie clip again to be sure
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21:03<Flygon>Okay, I gotta goo
21:03<drac_boy>bye flygon
21:03<Flygon>Horses need feeding
21:03<Flygon>And I'm the only one that can feed him
21:03<Flygon>Darn this accused horse
21:04<Flygon>Arl be back, in 30-60 mins
21:05*drac_boy goes back to this cargo list again
21:07*Eddi|zuHause goes to sleep
21:07<drac_boy>have a good sleep
21:07<Eddi|zuHause>oh, btw. of the fixed wagon sets
21:08<Eddi|zuHause>i totally forgot the double decker wagons of east germany
21:08<Eddi|zuHause>which came in 2 and 4 parts
21:09<Eddi|zuHause>and special sectioned sets of 5 wagons
21:09<Eddi|zuHause>with additional middle parts
21:09<Eddi|zuHause>so 9 parts in total
21:10<Supercheese>Finally fixed my circling seagulls :D
21:10<Eddi|zuHause>the wagons had no wheels at all
21:10<Supercheese>now I just hope no one criticizes my positioning of the shadows...
21:11<glx>Eddi|zuHause: like TGV segments ?
21:11<Eddi|zuHause>and were fixed to the middle parts which had a set of wheels underneath
21:11<Eddi|zuHause>glx: no, TGV has "jacobs bogies", these were different
21:12<drac_boy>eddi I think I had seen that one .. marklin or brawa sold a model of it too .. quite a long consist only suitable for larger layouts
21:13<Eddi|zuHause>http://picture.yatego.com/images/43281a67371588.5/big_pik53120_4-kqh/piko-53120-doppelstock-gliederzug.jpg
21:14<Eddi|zuHause>here is a model
21:14<glx>oh
21:14<drac_boy>yep thats the one eddi
21:15<drac_boy>it looks alike to certain modern trams .. "suspended" cars riding on very short axle mounted pieces
21:15<glx>not a bad solution to have more space inside the wagon
21:17<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: these were built in the 1950's (long-distance version) and 1970's (local version)
21:19<drac_boy>1950s sounds a bit similar to the one I recall reading about before .. WWII (or at least a bit before it) designed drg doppelstockwagens ... one of their initial problem was the sloped roof meant no openable windows upstairs or something to that effect
21:19<Eddi|zuHause>in the 1980's they moved to single-wagon units, which evolved into the modern wagons they build until today
21:20<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: pre-war doubledecker wagons existed only in a private railroad
21:20<Eddi|zuHause>which operated the trains from Hamburg to Lübeck
21:20*drac_boy sometimes thinks about these early french doubledeck coaches especially for commuter railroads around Paris at the time
21:20<Eddi|zuHause>but these are based on that design
21:20<drac_boy>who else really were doing 2-axle doubledeck cars with outside stairways anyway?!
21:21<drac_boy>crazy french people I tell you
21:21<Eddi|zuHause>those were also the first push-pull wagons
21:21<drac_boy>mm I noticed that eddi...the cab is too obvious :)
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21:22<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: well, if you assume that it's travelling on the right side... ;)
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21:24<drac_boy>I think it may be better if we just stop for now so you can get some sleep? :)
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21:48<Flygon>Back
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21:50<drac_boy>hi flygon :)
21:50<Flygon>drac_boy: Interestingly, we used those middle carriage thingos on P/DERM's
21:50<Flygon>It wasn't an innovation that was kept
21:50<Flygon>I guess VR didn't see them as useful
21:53<Flygon>Even articulated trams didn't use them (the Comeng built ones)
21:54<Flygon>It took 5 car trams for the perspective to change
22:06<drac_boy>I'm going to bed now so bye ok? :)
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22:42<Supercheese>NML has always given a warning for sprites that use "pure white", yet there seems to be nothing wrong with using it... what are the potential problems with using pure white pixels?
22:50<Snail>no problem in itself, but such a warning might mean a misalignment between the sprites and the code
22:51<Snail>if you never use pure white in your drawings, but only in the background of the file, then the sprites picked up by the code should never include pure white
22:51<Snail>and if pure white is included it means a misalignment
22:51<Snail>if OTOH you use pure white for your sprites, you lose this
22:51<Supercheese>Ah, no, the background is all blue
22:52<Supercheese>With white seagulls, very much intended ;)
22:52<Supercheese>as I said, grf works fine
22:52<Snail>if your background is all blue, then you can disregard this warning
22:52<Supercheese>:)
22:52<Snail>seagulls? are you drawing sprites for ships or something? :)
22:53<Supercheese>No, seagulls as newobjects :)
22:53<Supercheese>they look very nice, if I do say so myself
22:53<Snail>wow! and they're animated?
22:53<Supercheese>yep
22:53<Supercheese>18-frame and 24-frame varianets
22:53<Supercheese>variants*
22:53<Snail>wow!
22:53<Snail>so how do they do? they fly across different tiles?
22:54<Supercheese>they circle around
22:54<Supercheese>I can throw a .gif together
22:57<Snail>:)
22:57<Supercheese>Well, guess I have to write a "this is what I'm working on" post to go with the .gifs
23:03<Supercheese>Bah, as I'm making my .gifs I spot errors :S
23:06<Snail>:D
23:06<Snail>happens to me too
23:06<Supercheese>Must...get...sprites...perfect...
23:06<Snail>the other day I spotted a bug in a piece of code I wrote 6 months ago
23:08<Supercheese>Ok, think I fixed all the errors
23:09<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=56780&p=1058861#p1058861
23:11<Snail>nice!
23:11<Snail>this would look s great with MB's MariCo :)
23:11<Supercheese>yep, I edited my post to say just that :)
23:12<Supercheese>afk few minutes
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---Logclosed Fri Dec 28 00:00:30 2012