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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-12-28

---Logopened Fri Dec 28 00:00:30 2012
00:16<Supercheese>(more like afk an hour :P )
00:48<Supercheese>Wow, this is a weird looking airplane:
00:52<Flygon>It's the Hunchback of Moscow!
00:53<Flygon>Also, Supercheese
00:53<Flygon>They resemble the Seagulls from Age of Empires II
00:53<Supercheese>Close, but not from AoE2
00:53<Supercheese>Although hmm, I should look at those
00:53<Flygon>I wasn't implying you ripped them :p
00:54<Flygon>Also, they're larger, and have a lower frame rate. Not really worth ripping
00:54<Flygon>Unless you feel like accelerating them
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00:54<Flygon>Either way, ones you did look snazzy
00:55<Flygon>...and OpenTTD totally needs an Age of Empires II graphics set now :p
00:55<Supercheese>They're modified from a similar game, and yeah
00:55<Supercheese>AoE2 graphics would be snazzy
00:55<Flygon>Yep, build a road from Scotland to Britian, and transport Woaaaaaaaaaaaaaad Raiders!
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00:56<Flygon>Even cooler would be a I+II set going from 2000BC to 1700AD...
00:56<Flygon>But OpenTTD doesn't have the ability to go into negative years
00:56<Flygon>And we'd need new renderings to make post-1700 buildings @_@"
00:57<Flygon>...and modifying the engine to make time go much faster @ 2000BC and slower @ around the industrial revolution...
00:58<Flygon>Point is, Age of Empires shizz looks really pretty, and is coincidentally isometric
00:58<Flygon>And by coincidence has most of the resources needed for OpenTTD graphics and vehicles :p
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00:59<Flygon>But, I lack the resources and ambition to make this a thing
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00:59<Flygon>Good idea to keep in the backburner, though :)
00:59<Supercheese>Copyright issues aside :P
01:01<Flygon>I'll buy a Yate and fly to people's houses to verify they own AoEII :P
01:47<Pikka>mm bugs
01:50<Pikka>my class 0 city will not build any residential buildings after the year 2000 :D
01:51<Pikka>and... that'd be why
01:51<Pikka>population limit greater than 7FFF is a bad idea :}
01:53<Pikka>class 1 craps itself at 2050 too... oops :)
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03:10<Supercheese>Wait, there's a third, unused roadtype?
03:12<Rubidium>there isn't
03:12<Supercheese>Just space for it?
03:12<Supercheese>Then what is this old thread getting revived for...
03:13<Rubidium>something that was space for a long time ago
03:13<Supercheese>since been used?
03:14<Flygon>Speaking of third roadtypes
03:14<Rubidium>yep, the 'reserved' space is used by something else
03:14<Flygon>What'd be really cool is hovering mono or maglev rails that can go above roads
03:14<Flygon>Will never happen, of course :p
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03:15<Supercheese>Just code mono/maglev engines as road vehicles or trams
03:15<Supercheese>Bob's yer uncle, hovering above roads
03:15<Flygon>Supercheese: I mean, as an actual railtype
03:16<Flygon>eg. diagonal running and all
03:16<Supercheese>That would require diagonal roads first
03:16<Flygon>I mean a railtype, that can go over road related tiles
03:16<Flygon>And instead of level crossings
03:16<Flygon>It's physically seperate
03:16<Supercheese>I thought you were going for a roadtype
03:18<Supercheese>Elevated monorails, à la Disney?
03:22<Supercheese>You'd still have essentially a level crossing, where road traffic is forced to stop
03:22<Supercheese>unless you build a bridge
03:23<Flygon>Supercheese: I was thinking more Transrapid or Sydney Monorail. Or The Simpsons.
03:23<Flygon>But basically... the rails would be like they're ALWAYS a bridge
03:24<Flygon>But also dependant on the land's base height...
03:24<Flygon>Dunno if that is actually programmable
03:24<Supercheese>OTTD will still treat the "level crossing" the same way though, irrespective of graphics
03:24<Flygon>Especially due to having two railtypes in one tile going the same direction...
03:25<Supercheese>"The [Sydney] Metro Monorail will cease operation in June 2013 and subsequently be pulled down."
03:25<Supercheese>Thus saith wikipedia
03:25<Flygon>Sydney monorail is shiiiit
03:25<Flygon>Excuse my language
03:25<Supercheese>Apparently rather unprofitable
03:26<Flygon>It's fares were outragious
03:26<Flygon>Nobody rode it (except tourists)
03:26<Flygon>It was an eyesore
03:26<Flygon>And it was chosen over a much cheaper and cooler looking tram system
03:26<Flygon>Sydney REALLY wanted Trams back
03:27<Flygon>Partially because it would have allowed reuse of old rollingstock Sydney used to have, and also newer rollingstock Melbourne has, iirc
03:27<Supercheese>But monorails are kewl! :P
03:27<Flygon>Supercheese, remember the monorail episode of The Simpsons?
03:28<__ln__>yeah, and there's no disneyland on the whole continent, so...
03:28<Flygon>Sydney's version went a bit like that
03:28<Flygon>Complete with crashes due to computer failure, in fact
03:28<Supercheese>No Disney Down Under yet?
03:28<Supercheese>They should get on that.
03:28<Flygon>We already have all the Gold Coast theme parks
03:29<Flygon>Warner Brothers basically kicked out Disney :p
03:29<__ln__>(at least i assume there isn't, never been down under myself yet)
03:35<Flygon>ln: Indeed, there is no Disneyland
03:36<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:42<@Terkhen>hi Alberth :)
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03:51<Pikka>morning andy et al
03:53<__ln__>There isn't a Disneyland on Antarctica either, I guess.
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04:01<Supercheese>They should get on that
04:01<Flygon>__ln__: That's because Australia has mass claimed ownership of Antartica
04:01<Supercheese>very cheap real estate, I hear
04:02<Flygon>It's convenient
04:05<andythenorth>Pikka: export / import industries....good or bad?
04:05<Supercheese>Oh, I suppose I should make a land-based version of those seagulls
04:06<Supercheese>currently only water
04:06<Pikka>good, andy
04:06<Pikka>I meant to add ports to TaI but never got round to it yet
04:07<Pikka>I had a go with nocargoal btw... only one of each industry on a 128* map, didn't work. :P
04:07<Pikka>got to about 60% of 7500 for each cargo
04:07<Pikka>I guess it's more fun with bigger, more spread out maps
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04:13<andythenorth>Pikka: for cargo goals, funding primaries is pretty essential
04:15<andythenorth>hmm ports
04:15<andythenorth>dan has some graphics for them
04:15<andythenorth>question is, how / where to locate them?
04:15<Supercheese>Near map edges, presumably
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04:15<andythenorth>and do I need to provide a dry-land version (warehouse)
04:15<andythenorth>for maps with pathologically low amount of sea
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04:18<Pikka>probably not
04:18<Pikka>of course, there's only so much you can do to prevent your international port generating on a little lake :)
04:19<andythenorth>fishing harbour has same issue ;)
04:19<Supercheese>No good way to check if the water has a 'path' to the map edge, eh?
04:24<Supercheese>So, hmm, if I want this object to be buildable on slopes, do I have to have a ton of different spritelayouts and switch between them based on the value of tile_slope, or is there some way to automagically have the groundsprite be whatever slope it needs to?
04:25<andythenorth>Supercheese: sounds like a standard routing algorithm problem to me ;)
04:25<Supercheese>simply using GROUNDSPRITE_NORMAL results in flat sprites on slopes, which is Bad™
04:25<andythenorth>but I have never implemented one, it's possibly beyond my maths skills, and it's not a newgrf thing
04:26<Supercheese>perhaps I should try providing no ground sprite at all
04:26<andythenorth>that _might_ result in a black tile / garbled graphics
04:26<andythenorth>it does for industries
04:26<Supercheese>We'll see
04:28<andythenorth>you might need slope-aware ground
04:28<Supercheese>Yeah, garbled nonsense
04:28<andythenorth>possibly terrain aware too
04:28<andythenorth>this is always fun :P
04:28<Supercheese>No way to automatically have OTTD take care of that?
04:29<Supercheese>I just want to have the base ground unchanged and float sprites over it
04:29<andythenorth>industries and stations can't do that :P
04:30<Supercheese>but this is an object
04:30<andythenorth>yeah, I haven't coded objects
04:30<andythenorth>planetmaker ^ ?
04:30<Supercheese>I could just limit to water-only
04:30<Supercheese>solve all my problems
04:31<andythenorth>ho ho
04:31<Supercheese>of course people will come a-wanting them over ground nearly instantaneously
04:31<andythenorth>the pragmatic route ;)
04:32<Pikka>working out the slope and providing graphics isn't /that/ hard
04:32<Pikka>particularly if you limit yourself to the four straight slopes :]
04:32<andythenorth>other new objects have done it
04:32<andythenorth>i reckon
04:32<Pikka>I've done it with houses
04:33<Supercheese>Eh, I know what I'd have to do
04:33<andythenorth>handling snow / partial snow / desert etc is a bit of faff
04:33<Supercheese>I'd rather there be a lazy way of course :P
04:34<Supercheese>Think it's time to dive into the OGFX+ landscape code, they've done pretty much what I want
04:34<Supercheese>back into*
04:34<Supercheese>I've already borrowed their animation coding
04:35<Supercheese>sprite: LOAD_TEMP(var_groundsprite) + slope_to_sprite_offset(nearby_tile_slope(0, 0));
04:35<Supercheese>whoah thar
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04:36<Supercheese>and a very nasty-looking switch later on
04:37<Supercheese>although I probably won't need that
04:37<andythenorth>Supercheese: it's easier than doing it with nfo :)
04:37<andythenorth>or at least this way you avoid a crash course in masks and shifts ;)
04:38<Supercheese>no shit, raw hex makes my neurons die painful deaths
04:38<Supercheese>even commented hex is not much better
04:39<andythenorth>it's really fine, once you've learnt it
04:39<Supercheese>I'm exaggerating, yes
04:40<Supercheese>still, the learning curve for NML is far less steep
04:41<andythenorth>could the pathfinder check for a minimum number of connected water tiles?
04:41<andythenorth>for a newgrf placement check?
04:42<andythenorth>seems like basic A* or such?
04:43<andythenorth>could cap it for performance reasons, there is an upper limit beyond which checking is pointless (big enough is big enough)
04:50<Pikka>you could always build "sensor tiles" as part of the industry, eg channel markers... :P
04:51<andythenorth>I already use 'magic' water tile 0xFF to ensure clear space
04:51<andythenorth>maybe I can implement A* or similar in newgrf
04:51<andythenorth>using the tile checks :o
04:51<Pikka>good luck :P
04:52<Pikka>I suppose if it's only doing it during industry placement you don't need to worry too much about performance issues
04:55<andythenorth>can't decide if ports should be forced to be near map edge or not
04:56<@peter1138>why near map edge?
04:58<V453000>earth has edges?
04:59<Supercheese>Make it a parameter
04:59<@peter1138>what kind of port are you talking about here?
05:00*Supercheese puts on his best Italian New York accent
05:00<Supercheese>'Impoht / Expoht'
05:01<Supercheese>'Impoaht / Expoaht' perhaps is closer :P
05:01<andythenorth>yeah tha
05:02<andythenorth>export cargo 'foo', import cargo 'blah'
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05:04<V453000>coal->cow factory? awesome
05:04<Supercheese>Well, the OGFX+ code works splendidly for detecting slopes, but it seems to have broken my animation
05:06<andythenorth>export / import is basically a massive cheat for economies where the goal is a low number of industries / cargos
05:06<andythenorth>it lets me square the circle on some broken chains
05:06<andythenorth>without unpicking all of FIRS and getting yelled at (again)
05:08<V453000>ha :(
05:09<andythenorth>I can also please some rivet counters
05:09<andythenorth>e.g. UK has aluminium plants, but no bauxite mines
05:09<andythenorth>so ports work there too
05:09<andythenorth>in a UK economy
05:09<V453000>that looks really weirdly realistic
05:09<V453000>but lets see what you come up with :)
05:10*andythenorth ponders European economies
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05:10<Pinkbeast>weirdly: yes, in OTTD-land we are always on a curiously self-sufficient island
05:10<andythenorth>EU economies driving you away? :P
05:10<andythenorth>I could do Australia, and include a pikka-factory :P
05:11<andythenorth>produces: pixels
05:11<Supercheese>Augh, what broke the animations
05:11<andythenorth>requires: fuck knows :)
05:11<Supercheese>Mountain Dew? :P
05:11<andythenorth>what fuels a pikka?
05:11<Pinkbeast>BEER? Cheese sandwiches?
05:11<Supercheese>Beer, yes
05:11<Pikka>I think a wrap would be good, I will go and make one
05:12<Supercheese>That's a wrap, folks
05:12<Supercheese>(couldn't resist)
05:13<andythenorth>there is plenty of LOL potential in a discussion about EU economies o_O
05:13<Supercheese>or most any economy, really
05:13<Supercheese>Please, not that again
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05:14<Supercheese>We've been over this ;)
05:14<@peter1138>and you still get it wrong :p
05:14<andythenorth>afaik, Europe's main industry is cheese
05:14<Supercheese>*sigh* How many dictionaries must I quote
05:15<andythenorth>cheese factory: requires milk, produces cheese
05:16<andythenorth>deliver EU subsidy for more production
05:16<andythenorth>does Europe make any beer of any kind?
05:16<Supercheese>Most all kinds of beer, I'd expect ;)
05:17*andythenorth wonders if FIRS needs a whaling station
05:17<Supercheese>I might have some whale sprites around somewhere
05:17<Supercheese>I know I have some shark sprites
05:18<@peter1138>Supercheese, and they all say either unacceptable or "us only"
05:18<@peter1138>so the word you wanted was almost
05:18<Supercheese>yeah, no
05:18<andythenorth>let's try examples
05:18<andythenorth>"FIRS is almost done"
05:19<andythenorth>"peter1138 has almost talked himself into doing roadtypes"
05:19<@peter1138>neither of those are true though :p
05:19<Supercheese>The shortening of almost to most is most frequent for "almost any" -> "most any"
05:19<andythenorth>"a spec for newgrf effect vehicles is almost sane"
05:19<andythenorth>see, the last one can use most
05:19<Supercheese>"modify the adjectives all, every, and any"
05:19<andythenorth>"a spec for newgrf effect vehicles is most sane"
05:19<@peter1138>the shortening of almost to most is most frequent for americans who don't know what it is wrong
05:20<Supercheese>"First Known Use: circa 1584"
05:20<Supercheese>I don't think our country was even around then
05:20<Supercheese>last book I read said it wasn't anyhow ;)
05:20<@peter1138>thy arst thou correcteth
05:21<@peter1138>and ye olde shoppe of course
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>"thy" sounds grammatically wrong in this place :)
05:23<Eddi|zuHause>and who ever got the idea to use "y" for "th"?
05:23<andythenorth>you should all have a baby to hold
05:23<andythenorth>like me
05:23<andythenorth>that would improve your morning
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>the typical morning at 11:30 AM? :)
05:24<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, þ
05:24<Pinkbeast>Assuming your morning has insufficient nappies in it
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: yes, i know that character :)
05:25<Supercheese>anyway, I should sleep
05:25<@peter1138>Medieval printing presses did not contain the letter thorn, so the letter y was substituted
05:25<Supercheese>I'll figure out why the animation broke later
05:25<andythenorth>poor unicode compatibility
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: so why does nobody then spell "thy" as "yy"? :p
05:25<Supercheese>I could do that... most any time
05:25-!-Supercheese was kicked from #openttd by peter1138 [almost]
05:27<@peter1138>wot no autojoin :p
05:27<andythenorth>most harsh
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>autojoin is most evil :p
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>i think you offended him, he even left the server :/
05:28<andythenorth>so...checking the number of connected water tiles from newgrf?
05:30<andythenorth>the purpose being to avoid building water-based industries in teeny-tiny lakes
05:31<@peter1138>is it possible?
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so which part of that was the question?
05:42<@peter1138>ok, do i build lots of independent rail lines or one big network?
05:42<@peter1138>and... do i build "realistic" rail junctions or just have lines connect up willynilly?
05:43<Pikka>yes, peter1138
05:44<Pinkbeast>Don't just build one line per connection because then it gets really dull
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>i concur, Pikka
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05:50<@peter1138>gah, this station-name-from-nearby-industry thing is kinda annoying
05:50<@peter1138>built a station in a town
05:50<@peter1138>and it's name "town grocer's shop"
05:52<Pinkbeast>On the other hand, don't build a complex network because you can't manage fast+slow on the mainline effectively
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05:53<@peter1138>silly biggui
05:53<ZxBiohazardZx>taking another look on that terkhen format for scns
05:54<@peter1138>uses railway bridge previews when building road bridges
05:54<ZxBiohazardZx>why is alpine/snow not a climate layer palet?
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05:54<andythenorth>peter1138: other people find the names annoying, it _might_ be a valid parameter option
05:54<ZxBiohazardZx>default, desert, rainforest
05:54<andythenorth>how much do you care?
05:54<ZxBiohazardZx>why is alpine/snow not part of it?
05:54<@Terkhen>ZxBiohazardZx: because you cannot modify snow except by changing the snow line height
05:54<@peter1138>andythenorth, is it firs doing that or openttd though?
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: snow isn't stored on the map, it's calculated based on height
05:55<ZxBiohazardZx>Terkhen then snow is available in ALL types?
05:55<@Terkhen>ZxBiohazardZx: no, only in the subartic climate
05:55<ZxBiohazardZx>would it be hard to change that into all climates based on height/setting
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it would.
05:55<ZxBiohazardZx>with default having infinite high level so it never shows?
05:56<andythenorth>peter1138: yes
05:56<ZxBiohazardZx>also i dont get how the format is lose from newgrf adding after creation
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>the morning of helpful answers :p
05:56<ZxBiohazardZx>if you define city/towns, the newgrfs will (majorly) affect them ?
05:57<@Terkhen>ZxBiohazardZx: the whole point of the format is being NewGRF independent
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: by exporting and reimporting as heightmap
05:57<@peter1138>andythenorth, i like the naming but i prefer it to just take the normal name if it's in the town radius
05:57<@Terkhen>in the scenario format, towns are only defined by their position and number of houses
05:57<ZxBiohazardZx>ah ok Terkhen, thats great
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: you will lose some details, but not all
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05:57<@peter1138>also, both the 1, 2, and 4 horse carriages have 10hp :S
05:57<ZxBiohazardZx>i keep running into stupid issues porting my scenarios over to multiple newgrfsets
05:57<@Terkhen>if you change your town NewGRF, you will get the same town in the same place with the same number of houses, but it will be different
05:57<ZxBiohazardZx>i usually just hack them and play with modified grfs
05:57<andythenorth>peter1138: sounds like an ottd option to ignore industry prop 24?
05:57<ZxBiohazardZx>works fine 99/100 times :P
05:58<@Terkhen>ZxBiohazardZx: yes, we want to solve this issue for scenario authors :)
05:58<Pinkbeast>peter: RV power has a too-large quantum for horse-drawn vehicles to have sensible power. :-/
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05:58<ZxBiohazardZx>stupid newGRFs and their insane linking in the core
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: it was worse when it called the station "... Mine" when it was near a recycling place
05:59<andythenorth>if I don't set prop 24, what happens?
05:59<andythenorth>it uses the industry type or something?
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it uses the default method, "mine" for extractive, "forest" for organic, nothing for the rest, or somesuch
06:00<@Terkhen>ZxBiohazardZx: I'm slowly progressing on it... I'm not sure if I will finish it in time for the 1.3.0 release, though
06:00<ZxBiohazardZx>so that brings me to the next question Terkhen did you even start on it?:P
06:00<ZxBiohazardZx>you answered the question before i even asked it :|
06:01<ZxBiohazardZx>Eddi is right, it is the morning of helpful answers :P
06:01<@Terkhen>in the worst case I could always release a patched 1.3.0 version that allows you to convert a scn to extended heightmap, and then back to scn with different NewGRFs
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06:01<ZxBiohazardZx>im cool with that
06:01<ZxBiohazardZx>i currently just exploit the "allow modified grfs" setting alot :)
06:02<ZxBiohazardZx>works personally just fine
06:02<@Terkhen>I'm still hoping to have it done for 1.3.0, though :P
06:02<ZxBiohazardZx>just starts to become a biatch when you want to share a "perfect combo"
06:02<ZxBiohazardZx>fair enough
06:02<ZxBiohazardZx>i also had another question
06:02<ZxBiohazardZx>but i forgot it :P
06:03<ZxBiohazardZx>is there a (crappy or not) patch for cbh on forums that you guys know of?
06:03<Pikka>can't be helped
06:04<ZxBiohazardZx>searching CBH or custom bridge heads results in 10.000 threads that are not helpfull in any way
06:04<@Terkhen>an ancient, not complete patch from 5 years ago IIRC
06:04<@Terkhen>that patch wouldn't be helpful either
06:04<@Terkhen>it needs... new map array :D
06:04<ZxBiohazardZx>ill take that as a no then
06:04<@peter1138>no it doesn't
06:04<ZxBiohazardZx>how did ttdp do it?
06:04<@Terkhen>or maybe not, I don't remember the specifics for that feature
06:04<@peter1138>just needs to be written in a way that works ;p
06:04<@Terkhen>oh, ok :)
06:04<Pikka>peter1138: HOVS2 will come with a special feature to solve that problem
06:04<Pikka>no horses :)
06:05<@peter1138>HOVS... good times
06:05<@peter1138>but then you never finished it :p
06:05<ZxBiohazardZx>so CBH/rail over tunnel entrance is far from there (both somehow are working in ttdp) XD
06:05<@peter1138>i finished CBH but it never got committed
06:05<Pikka>I restarted it, peter1138
06:05<andythenorth>I cba to do BANDIT either :P
06:05<@peter1138>yeah i know
06:05<ZxBiohazardZx>peter1138 ofc you did :P
06:05<andythenorth>RVs are too crappy
06:05<andythenorth>they're all wrong
06:05<Pikka>one vehicle drawn, 38 to go
06:06<ZxBiohazardZx>peter1138 why not share that work you did on CBH
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: if you want to update a patch based on r3000 ;)
06:07<andythenorth>Pikka: send me your sprites, I'll send you my codes
06:07<Pikka>eh, the codes is the easy bit :}
06:07<andythenorth>fricking set design is the hard bit :P
06:07<ZxBiohazardZx>peter1138 cause i think cbh is an awesome feature in ttdp specially for scenariobuilding
06:07<ZxBiohazardZx>it allows more dense city/roadlayouts
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>code writes itself, obviously
06:08<ZxBiohazardZx>ofc it does
06:08<ZxBiohazardZx>you hire gnomes that write it for you!
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>i mean that literally...
06:09<andythenorth>I am one ahead
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>a script of ~300 lines writing ~30000 lines of code
06:09<andythenorth>my graphics draw themselves too
06:10<ZxBiohazardZx>lol nice Eddi
06:10<andythenorth>what's annoying is that the set doesn't design itself
06:10<andythenorth>maybe we just make a 'set designing script'
06:10<andythenorth>and then let AIs play test versions
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06:10<andythenorth>something will emerge as winner
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: genetic newgrfs!!
06:10<@peter1138>ZxBiohazardZx, i did it 6 years ago, it won't apply
06:11<andythenorth>+1 to genetic newgrfs
06:11<andythenorth>creativity is over-rated, just iterate
06:12<drac_boy>heh heh
06:12<ZxBiohazardZx>peter1138 meh ok so pretty much idea exists, just no code for it
06:13*andythenorth ponders an insurrection
06:13<andythenorth>against autorefit
06:13<drac_boy>why andythenorth?
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: there exists another patch, which is only like 5 years old
06:14<andythenorth>nah...I've whined about autorefit enough here
06:14<@peter1138>celestar's attempt
06:15<@peter1138>my version actually worked but got made obsolete
06:15<Rubidium>it's all Celestar's fault ;)
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>it should be in the SVN
06:15<andythenorth>so frosch has convinced me that newgrf effect vehicles would be a Good Thing
06:15<@peter1138>Rubidium, tron ;)
06:15<andythenorth>featuring spritegroups for using n realsprites
06:16<ZxBiohazardZx>Eddi 5 years, 6 years, both are ancient
06:16<ZxBiohazardZx>to much shit happened between and you know that just as much as i do
06:16<andythenorth>using spritegroups for effect vehicles would handle cases like ships with 4 funnels
06:17<Rubidium>@commit 9109
06:17<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Commit by celestar :: r9109 /branches/custombridgeheads/src (3 files) (2007-03-11 09:28:58 UTC)
06:17<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: [cbh] -Fix: Stabilize the reversing of trains on bridges/bridgeheads a little (it still crashes at times however). Also re-allow the construction of signals on bridgeheads
06:17<Rubidium>it seems closer to 6 years old ;)
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>still, about 1 year younger than peter1138's patch :)
06:18<@peter1138>yeah mine is nearly 7 years ago
06:18<@peter1138>although that was later versions, dunno when i started it
06:18<ZxBiohazardZx>you all know that thats ancient
06:19<andythenorth>for sanity, newgrf effect vehicles might not get VA 2, just an animation rate and a set of frames to step through (or VA 2 with just one var: animation frame)
06:19<@peter1138>they'd get VA2
06:20<ZxBiohazardZx>and you both prolly had valid reasons to stop updating the CBH patches you made
06:20<@peter1138>there are global variables that all features get access to
06:21<andythenorth>change smoke based on date :P
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: there is also this:
06:22<andythenorth>alllows newgrfs to reflect introduction of emissions control laws :P
06:23<andythenorth>puzzled about how to control generation of effect vehicles though
06:24<andythenorth>newgrf shouldn't be doing that on every tick, that's bonkers
06:25<ZxBiohazardZx>Hackalittlebit did get "signals on bridges and tunnels" implemented in a ugly hacky way :P
06:25<andythenorth>I'm -1 on signals for tunnels / bridges
06:26*Pinkbeast lifts an eyebrow
06:26<andythenorth>why bother?
06:26<Rubidium>with the current map array signals on bridges/tunnels are mutually exclusive with cbh/cte
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: that has pretty much nothing to do with this, though
06:27<Emmy-Eviltwin>what's in a name, eh
06:27<ZxBiohazardZx>true eddi, but afaik that link you posted is a similar implementation
06:27<ZxBiohazardZx>aka the highly disliked "hack"
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: it is not.
06:27<ZxBiohazardZx>and i personally have alot of likes on signals in bridge/tunnels
06:27<ZxBiohazardZx>or multiple trains on bridge/tunnel :P
06:28<Emmy-Eviltwin>wait, we once had signals on bridge heads?
06:28<ZxBiohazardZx>allows you to build longer bridges /tunnels without insane jams
06:28<andythenorth>or just build shorter ones
06:28<ZxBiohazardZx>sometimes that isnt an option
06:28<Pinkbeast>Awkward when some miscreant has put their huge town in the way
06:29<Emmy-Eviltwin>that works if you only want to cross sea or something like that
06:29<Emmy-Eviltwin>but not if you want to cross a huge valley or tunnel underneath a large town
06:29<ZxBiohazardZx>crossing the sea, crossing a valley, tunneling under a long mountainside or even underneath a town
06:29<@peter1138>i implemented signals on custom bridge heads i think, been a while
06:29<Pinkbeast>Couldn't the signals be a property of the wormhole keeping them out of the map array
06:29<ZxBiohazardZx>you cant always make a 3-long tunnel and then exclavate a hole just for signalling
06:30*andythenorth stops arguing against vapourware features that no-one is working on anyway ;)
06:30<ZxBiohazardZx>its the reason chrills patchpack is popular
06:30<@peter1138>is it?
06:30<@peter1138>never used it
06:30<ZxBiohazardZx>signals on bridge/tunnels, cargodist/paxdest and some other features
06:31<andythenorth>how do you know it's popular?
06:31*drac_boy always uses more than one tunnel if its high traffic anyway
06:31<ZxBiohazardZx># of downloads
06:31<drac_boy>thats what the advanced signals are for
06:31<ZxBiohazardZx>im not willing to place 8-10 tunnels if i can do with 1 that contains hacky signalling
06:33<ZxBiohazardZx>that aside
06:33<ZxBiohazardZx>mainly was wondering about that scenario /extended heightmap thingy of Terkhen
06:33<ZxBiohazardZx>and ofc dreaming about cbh, but yeah
06:34<@peter1138>learn to code ;)
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06:35<andythenorth>or learn to dream things other people are prepared to code
06:35<andythenorth>not easy ;)
06:35<ZxBiohazardZx>peter1138 yeah i know :)
06:36<ZxBiohazardZx>i can do some minor bullshit
06:36<ZxBiohazardZx>but im not doing computer/software engineering
06:36<ZxBiohazardZx>all i did was a minor
06:36<ZxBiohazardZx>that only involved java and some opengl
06:36<@peter1138>a minor?
06:36<ZxBiohazardZx>bachelor programme
06:36<@peter1138>i see
06:36<ZxBiohazardZx>30 ECTS worth of software engineering
06:37<ZxBiohazardZx>in my civil engineering degree
06:37<@peter1138>you know you don't need degrees to program, right?
06:37<Pinkbeast>Since we all know what an ECTS is we are now enlightened. :-)
06:37<ZxBiohazardZx>i know
06:37<ZxBiohazardZx>ECTS = European Credit Transfer System
06:37<ZxBiohazardZx>its the study-points-measurement in europe, 1 ECTS = 28hours roughly
06:37<ZxBiohazardZx>i know i dont need a degree for it
06:38<ZxBiohazardZx>i just never got around to learn C/c++ apart from reading some openttd and worldofwarcraft emulation codes
06:38<ZxBiohazardZx>and doing minor edits to them
06:38<Pinkbeast>Errr well I'm in Europe and it's news to me (also, aren't "minors" in "bachelor programmes" American terminology? It is a mystery.)
06:38<@peter1138>well guess were most of us learnt c/c++ from...
06:38<ZxBiohazardZx>i guess self taught
06:39<ZxBiohazardZx>as most hobbyprogrammers do
06:39<Pinkbeast>Hack 1.0.3 :-)
06:39<@peter1138>self learnt from... delving into openttd
06:39<ZxBiohazardZx>you did?
06:39<ZxBiohazardZx>you jumped into openttd with 0.0 skill/experience?
06:39<ZxBiohazardZx>then you learned ALOT of C/Cpp lolz
06:39<@peter1138>no, no 0.0
06:40<ZxBiohazardZx>you cant learn just by reading or altering existing code
06:40<ZxBiohazardZx>so you knew some shit before you started :P
06:40<@peter1138>you can
06:40<ZxBiohazardZx>copy paste only gets you so far
06:40<Pinkbeast>I knew no C at all before seeing the Hack source.
06:40<ZxBiohazardZx>i learned that on TC already
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06:40<Pinkbeast>... there's no rule against digging up a copy of K&R while you're doing it
06:41<@peter1138>take Belugas, he is a delphi programmer
06:41<@peter1138>knew nothing of c/c++
06:41<@peter1138>didn't stop him
06:41<ZxBiohazardZx>your a programmer, regardless of you language, some methodics are the same
06:41<@Terkhen>I started with copy paste too, knowing basic C++ only
06:41<ZxBiohazardZx>you all have variables, functions basic knowledge
06:41<@peter1138>yup, born a programmer
06:41<Flygon>I started with 68k ASM
06:41<Flygon>Then AviSynth
06:41<Flygon>Then I gave up programming :p
06:41<ZxBiohazardZx>the only reason i got through java was because i had a book and all the answers where copy/paste from some sheets
06:42<Pinkbeast>In particular a large program like OTTD (or Hack/ NetHack) often has a fairly clear internal structure where you don't need to know much of the language to change the game logic
06:42<ZxBiohazardZx>i gave the suggestion of putting screenshots in a screenshots dir a go
06:42<@peter1138>i wouldn't say clear, in ottd's case :)
06:42<ZxBiohazardZx>with only errors as result
06:42<ZxBiohazardZx>i only once got a patch in ottd
06:42<ZxBiohazardZx>but that was because the change was idiotly easy
06:42<ZxBiohazardZx>and only involved changing a calculation around, not writing a feature from scrap
06:43<Pinkbeast>peter: Compared to a pre-ANSI-C roguelike in '88? OK, there's some deep magic in places, but it's not too bad.
06:46<ZxBiohazardZx>i gave it a try by copy pasting similar code but ofc it didnt work :P
06:48<ZxBiohazardZx>r24866 is current head right?
06:49<ZxBiohazardZx>or is git not following svn anymore
06:49<Pinkbeast>I'm not sure that muddling through by examining the current code must imply a complete aversion to the use of Google
06:49<andythenorth>ZxBiohazardZx: so you can do partial differential equations, and eigenvectors, and finite element analysis, and static analysis of the moments of a truss bridge under load, and calculate the tensile strength of a piece of rebar, and the time it should take concrete to dry
06:49<andythenorth>but you can't program :o
06:49<andythenorth>programming is *easy*
06:50<andythenorth>civil engineering is hard
06:50*andythenorth quit civil engineering
06:50<Pinkbeast>And leads to much more comedy when done wrong
06:50<ZxBiohazardZx>yes i can andy
06:50<ZxBiohazardZx>well i hate partial DE's and finite element analysis is not my cup of tea either
06:51<ZxBiohazardZx>but i at least passed those subjects
06:51<andythenorth>I pretty much failed eng. maths
06:51<ZxBiohazardZx>as for concrete it takes 28 days to reach its final strenght unless you use some weird setup
06:51<ZxBiohazardZx>dont start about it, my eng maths are my only resit subjects :(
06:51<andythenorth>and yet I have patches in openttd :P
06:51<ZxBiohazardZx>still have to do 2 :(
06:51<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah yeah
06:52<ZxBiohazardZx>is 24866 head?
06:52<ZxBiohazardZx>or ?
06:52<ZxBiohazardZx>ill try the screenshot dir implementation again
06:52<ZxBiohazardZx>as that was another pain in my ass earlier
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: i thought that was already implemented...?
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06:56<ZxBiohazardZx>Eddi not that i know of :|
06:56<ZxBiohazardZx>it was suggested, not actually implemented afaik
06:56<andythenorth>so what production mechanic for port industries?
06:56<andythenorth>always produce?
06:56<@peter1138>it is implemented
06:56<ZxBiohazardZx>i gave it a very crappy try
06:56<andythenorth>only produce when something delivered?
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: as primary industry
06:56<ZxBiohazardZx>peter1138 what rev added it?
06:56<@peter1138>no idea
06:57<ZxBiohazardZx>for i dont see it
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: potentially using the export cargos as booster
06:57<Rubidium>ZxBiohazardZx: svn info svn://
06:57<@peter1138>9th dec 2012
06:57*andythenorth considers using gradual processing for once (aka stockpiling)
06:57<ZxBiohazardZx>peter1138 thats not in 1.2.3 stable?
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06:58<ZxBiohazardZx>hmmz that might explain
06:59<ZxBiohazardZx>anyway great! :)
07:01<ZxBiohazardZx>blegh it needed mroe lines then i wrote :P
07:01<ZxBiohazardZx>has some similarities though:P
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>they always do :p
07:01<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah yeah
07:01<ZxBiohazardZx>mine gave errros thus i forgot something
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>"hey, daylength is a one-line patch"
07:02<ZxBiohazardZx>my fios.cpp is bad, his actually adds the search :P
07:04<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, tee hee
07:06<ZxBiohazardZx>does r24806 need dutch translation?
07:07<Rubidium>it should already have one
07:08<ZxBiohazardZx>ah didnt see it but fine
07:08<@Terkhen> <-- dutch seems to be at 100%
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07:10<ZxBiohazardZx>its kinda literal but it works
07:10<ZxBiohazardZx>STR_WARNING_SCREENSHOT_SIZE_MESSAGE :{YELLOW}De schermafdruk heeft een resolutie van {COMMA} x {COMMA} pixels. De schermafdruk maken kan even duren. Verder gaan?
07:11<ZxBiohazardZx>...pixels. Het maken van de schermafdruk kan even duren.... sounds more logical to myself
07:12<@Alberth>become a translator yourself, and improve :)
07:12<ZxBiohazardZx>not sure why, the one selected is fine XD
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07:18<Pikka>only for once, andythenorth?
07:19<andythenorth>think most of FIRS processes on arrival at industry
07:19<andythenorth>doing it literally once would be interesting
07:19<andythenorth>a single-use industry
07:22<andythenorth> fruit as an imported cargo for Arctic?
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07:22<andythenorth>or a bit wrong really?
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07:31<andythenorth>can clay be mined in Arctic o_O
07:31*andythenorth proposes no
07:33<drac_boy>clay? it has to come from under the ground .. which is frozen anyway? :)
07:33<drac_boy>heh heh
07:37<drac_boy>hmm what to call a grf that is more than just trains?
07:37<drac_boy>"gameset grf" or what?? :-s
07:42<andythenorth>bad Eddi|zuHause - villages as industries :)
07:42<drac_boy>that doesn't help andythenorth :P
07:42<@Terkhen>andythenorth: only in summer!
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07:46<andythenorth>maybe I put furniture factory back into Arctic Basic
07:46<andythenorth>IKEA has to make all that crap somewhere
07:46<@Terkhen>don't they make it in china like everyone else?
07:47<andythenorth>not sure :)
07:47<andythenorth>China has sub-arctic regions too though :)
07:48<andythenorth>I have timber (cut wood) as an export cargo, also considering alcohol, petrol, chemicals or goods
07:48<andythenorth>probably alcohol and petrol
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07:58<@peter1138>remember when people used cdrom drives to play audio cds?
07:59<oskari89>Yes, and there was separate cable between CD-rom drive and sound card :D
07:59<oskari89>For that purpose
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08:00<MNIM>stupid windows xchat
08:00*MNIM bashes.
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08:00<MNIM>why did I only notice that now?
08:02<@peter1138>don't think my soundcards have connectors for that :S
08:02<MNIM>I had an audiojack in my cd drive.
08:03<@peter1138>i suppose everyone just downloads from itunes or something these days
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08:03<Pinkbeast>It's a DVD drive, but I've still got such a setup
08:03<@peter1138>work on TaI? surely not!
08:04<drac_boy>oskari89 that was only because audio couldn't be routed through the non-dma ata cables at the time
08:04<drac_boy>but mm
08:04<@peter1138>it still isn't
08:04<oskari89>Pikka: That's a nice one :)
08:05<drac_boy>udma/33 kinda made it reducent but some drives still choosed to do it that way tho
08:06<oskari89>That's kind of hypnotic gif
08:06<@peter1138>originally reading CDDA was not well supported
08:06<@peter1138>nothing to do with UDMA
08:09<@peter1138>and it's still more efficient to get the drive to play back the audio
08:11<Pinkbeast>Urrr. I might rather take that processing out of the drive and have it in the CPU where I can use it for other things when I'm not playing a CD.
08:12<@peter1138>it's a tiny part of the already existing processing capabilities of the drive
08:12<@peter1138>which is not general purpose
08:13<Pinkbeast>In that case is it then a significant part of the CPU? # The usual cycle of reincarnation stuff suggests it can plausibly be done either way
08:14<@peter1138>significantly more
08:15<@peter1138>it involves cpu time, memory, memory bandwidth, pci(e) bus bandwidth, sending/receiving ATA commands/data, audio dma, etc etc
08:16<@peter1138>versus getting a cd player to do what a cd player was designed to do
08:16<Pinkbeast>... plus having the stuff in the CD player to do it
08:17*drac_boy thinks peter1138 is overstating it a lot
08:18<Pinkbeast>... in particular, I suspect the bandwidth in both cases is about diddly squat
08:19<drac_boy>pinkbeast yeah its only a few kb per sec which is nothing to pci (and even less to any form of pcie)
08:20<@peter1138>not much but still requires processing
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08:20<drac_boy>thats too high
08:20<@peter1138>too high?
08:20<@peter1138>that's just the raw data
08:20<drac_boy>then how do you compress 176 into 150 even less with overhead?
08:20<@peter1138>where do you get 150 from?
08:21<Pinkbeast>Errr well it wouldn't be compression if it didn't make things smaller
08:21<@peter1138>what compression? :S
08:21<Pinkbeast>I assume drac means "this compressed audio format can be done at 150KB/s", but I'm guessing
08:21<drac_boy>150 is the cd rate :p
08:21<drac_boy>and as far as I know non-computer audio drives have always been 1x still
08:21<@peter1138>150KB/s is single speed rate for DATA
08:22<@peter1138>data has additional overhead to ensure data integrity
08:22<@peter1138>audio uses a different scheme
08:22<Pinkbeast>176 seems a factor of 2 too high.
08:22<drac_boy>Pinkbeast yeah that makes two of us
08:22<Pinkbeast>Ah, but memory bandwidth, yes.
08:22<@peter1138>partly why early drives didn't support CDDA over the data interface, the on-disc format is different
08:22<@peter1138>44100 * 2 * 2 = 176400 bytes/second
08:23<@peter1138>unless you're listening to mono or 8 bit CDs (which didn't exist)
08:23<Pinkbeast>Do us a favour and say where the other *2 comes from
08:23<drac_boy>the funny thing is I could find circuits for a simple 8mhz cdrom players .. and they never have any external memory at all
08:23<@peter1138>*2 = stereo
08:23<@peter1138>*2 = 16bit audio
08:23<@peter1138>drac_boy, exactly, they don't need it
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08:23<drac_boy>peter1138 so why do you talk about memory bandwidth if it doesn't exist?
08:24<Pinkbeast>stereo: bingo, you're right.
08:24<Lappro>good afternoon
08:24<drac_boy>hi Lappro
08:24<@peter1138>drac_boy, memory IS used if you use your CPU to play back the audio
08:24<drac_boy>peter1138 the 8mhz cpu IS PLAYING IT, thats why
08:24<andythenorth>Pikka: wot, no country house :O
08:24<drac_boy>how're you Lappro? (and btw its morning here ;) )
08:24<@peter1138>drac_boy, go back to the start please
08:24<Pikka>I haven't drawn them yet
08:25<Pikka>and they won't be in cities anyway, only villages :P
08:25<Lappro>im good, when it´s holiday it is always better :P you?
08:25<andythenorth>hey look! A town in 1890 that isn't all theatres
08:25<drac_boy>pikka heh that would be a zone 0 only house right?
08:25<andythenorth>seriously, the answer to the theatre bug should not be 'fix it in newgrf'
08:25*drac_boy is slowly understanding the town zone thing I think
08:25<@peter1138>drac_boy, that was the whole argument, it's more efficient to have the cd drive play back the audio instead of getting the computer's cpu to handle it
08:25<Pinkbeast>But that is ~ 1/1000 of the capacity of a PCI bus. :-)
08:26<@peter1138>Pinkbeast, pci has latency, and it can't do multiple things concurrently
08:26<Pikka>why not, andy?
08:26<drac_boy>peter1138 point is you complain about memory use, etc when I'm pointing out that it only needs a 8mhz cpu with no memory to be able to play the audio....meaning pci/etc does not matter
08:26<Pikka>you don't have vehicles in 1890 without newgrfs, after all :)
08:26<andythenorth>ach fair point
08:26<Pinkbeast>drac: But I think peter's contention is that the overheads associated with sending it through the machine's CPU is high
08:26<drac_boy>andythenorth yeah you'll have to start at 1950+ to get any of the original vehicles I think
08:27<Pinkbeast>*are high, bother
08:27<Lappro>btw, does anyone have an estimate what a Raspberry Pi 2nd rev. (512MB ram) could run as a dedicated openttd server?
08:27<drac_boy>Lappro for a headless server I don't see why it wouldn't work ... providing you don't use super-big maps perhaps
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08:28<Lappro>but what is the max capacity? how many users will it accept simulateously?
08:28<drac_boy>Lappro theres too many factors but one of the few major ones is the size of the map to populate
08:28<andythenorth>herp, paper mill could produce paper instead of goods
08:28<drac_boy>number of players does not matter btw
08:29<Lappro>oh ok thx for the info
08:29<drac_boy>andythenorth it depends .. "simple" is forest>papermill>town .. "advanced" is forest>papermill>printer>town
08:29<Lappro>ill test it with different sizes then (when it is finished compiling)
08:29<drac_boy>for lack of words
08:29<drac_boy>the printer thing ironically exists in default arctic climate atm as far as I recall
08:29<Pikka>it's not that ironic
08:30<Pinkbeast>Printers in Simutrans which makes for a complicated chain with printer's ink and all
08:30<andythenorth>given that I'm making a FIRS Arctic Basic
08:30<drac_boy>Pinkbeast really? I never noticed that .. which pak did it come from?
08:30<@peter1138>andythenorth, you want more than 32 cargo types really, don't you?
08:30<andythenorth>which is supposed to reflect standard Arctic
08:30<andythenorth>peter1138: no actually :)
08:30<andythenorth>do you have some spare though?
08:30<drac_boy>32 cargos seem a bit heavy to me :P
08:31<drac_boy>but meh at least a player does not have to use all of them ;)
08:31<Pinkbeast>Normal pak64's got printers (along with a demented selection of locomotives)
08:31<drac_boy>Pinkbeast ah .. hm I've never used pak64....yet
08:31<andythenorth>the basic FIRS economies have <20 cargos inc. PAX and mail
08:31<andythenorth>by design
08:31<@peter1138>hmm, where to take clay
08:32<andythenorth>paper mill
08:32<plkiller>i have a problem with getting onto my friends server it says "network-game connection lost" almos at (1,7mb of 1.8mb) the end of downloading the map, if i try to connect to other other server with bigger map it loads faster and i connect without problem. i could connect when the map had 1.2mb in begining of the gameworld. do you guys have any solution?
08:32<andythenorth>brick works if you have it
08:32<drac_boy>andythenorth that reminds me...
08:32<@peter1138>ooh got a cement plant next to a station
08:32<drac_boy>why do we have "brick works" rather than eg "bricks work" or "bricks works" .. or is it just something to do with english semastics?
08:32<plkiller>so guys could you help me?
08:33<drac_boy>plkiller you'll have to ask your friend to change his server host settings..thats all
08:33<drac_boy>nothing that can be done on your side .. except for ping times
08:33<plkiller>how do you change those?
08:33<@peter1138>andythenorth, bah, ISR doesn't have FIRS specific stations ;(
08:34<plkiller>is it in openttd.cfg?
08:34<andythenorth>peter1138: CHIPS does, but it's a bit fucked, and I don't know how to fix it :)
08:34<@peter1138>i only plain tiles in CHIPS
08:34<andythenorth>they'll show cargo if it's present
08:35<andythenorth>whatever there's most of
08:35<@peter1138>fix it to not misuse temp variables
08:35<andythenorth>I should tell yexo :)
08:36<plkiller>hey can someone try to connect to my server?
08:36<andythenorth>Pikka: you should do a station set o_O
08:37<Pikka>oh no I shouldn't
08:37<andythenorth>oh yes you should
08:37<Pikka>I made one station for pineapple, and then decided not to make any more
08:37<@peter1138>andythenorth, is the source open?
08:37<plkiller>can someone try to connect to a server called "testing connection"?
08:37<andythenorth>peter1138: CHIPS?
08:38<Pikka>works for me plk
08:38<Pikka>and plkiller
08:39<plkiller>did it download fast?
08:39<plkiller>because if my friend try to join it loads 1mb/min
08:40<drac_boy>need to go for a while anyhow
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08:41<andythenorth>CHIPS is nearly 2
08:41<andythenorth>it's like the 3rd child I don't have :P
08:41<andythenorth>it arrived in between the two I do have :P
08:43<@peter1138>cement plant is animating :D
08:44<@peter1138>oh dear
08:44<@peter1138>300hp/510t train stuck going over a bridge :S
08:44<@peter1138>maybe i should've put a bit more on it
08:45<plkiller>i need to check something is there a command for money?
08:45<Pinkbeast>It's in the cheats menu
08:45<plkiller>how do i get there ;P
08:45<Pinkbeast>Ctrl-Alt-C IIRC
08:46<plkiller>it doesnt work
08:46<andythenorth>that kiln animation was painful to do :P
08:46<andythenorth>should have rendered it
08:46<andythenorth>I had to count tedious pixels
08:46<Pinkbeast>I daresay there is some sort of web searching facility that will tell you what the keybinding is
08:49<andythenorth>paper is an existing cargo so that's ok. But is it ok for industries to have different outputs in different FIRS economies?
08:49<Pinkbeast>peter: send up a banking engine to get it across. :-)
08:51<Pinkbeast>andy: I wouldn't complain, so sample size of one says, sure!
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08:58*andythenorth drops the sawmill
08:58<andythenorth>I should start a channel for my monologues
08:58<andythenorth>so should drac_boy
08:59<andythenorth>it's a form of teddy bear programming
09:01<@Alberth>I hope the mill missed your foot
09:01<andythenorth>yes, but it didn't survive the fall
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09:02<andythenorth>if I break FIRS savegames, that's a minor version bump?
09:02<andythenorth>I think semver says that's a major version, but meh
09:03<@Alberth>I don't see breaking of NewGRF as a problem; you're not supposed to change the NewGRFs anyway
09:04<andythenorth> just wondering when to go to 0.9.0 instead of 0.8.x
09:04<andythenorth>soon I think
09:05<@Alberth>you control the meaning of a 0.x.0 change :)
09:07*andythenorth wonders if Arctic should export fish
09:07<andythenorth>probly not
09:08<@Alberth>it can export "scientific results" :p
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09:13<andythenorth>revised FIRS Arctic Basic: 17 cargos, 18 industries (4 of them black holes in towns)
09:13<andythenorth>pretty good eh?
09:13<Flygon>Alberth: You're one step closer to banning OpenTTD from Australia :p
09:15<Flygon>The Govt tends to go crazy over things such as graffiti being created by the gamer in video games
09:15<Flygon>And other such things
09:15<Flygon>Encouraging whaling could lead to another kneejerk response :p
09:16<@Alberth>oh, I meant real scientific results, about the weather and the climate and such
09:16<@Alberth>in particular, I did NOT mean japanese science :)
09:16<Flygon>So, bad timing :p
09:17<@Alberth>bad making graffiti in the game sounds like a good addition :p
09:17<Kjetil>It can export documentaries about a loon sailing around in the artic disabling ships and other crimes
09:18<@Alberth>or expeditions to the real south pole :)
09:18<@Alberth>and if you wait a while, you can also have expeditions to the north pole :)
09:19<@Alberth>although quite likely, the world will have some other problems when that happens :)
09:19<andythenorth>'scientific supplies'
09:19<andythenorth>I had 'survey supplies' in the original FIRS plan o_O
09:19<andythenorth>would need a GS to make it interesting though
09:19<@Alberth>hire Zuu :)
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09:53<bolli>Hi all
09:53<bolli>I've just got a quick coding question....
09:54<bolli>Is it possible to choose which sprite based on what cargo a vehicle carries?
09:54<bolli>How? :p
09:54<andythenorth>nml or nfo?
09:55-!-oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
09:55<andythenorth>do you have any complicated cases you want to handle, or just simple cargo->sprites?
09:55<bolli>Just cargo-> sprites
09:55<andythenorth>complicated => things like sprites for different dates etc ;)
09:55<bolli>So vehicles show vehicles on the wagon, Steel shows steel etc
09:56<bolli>No, I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible :P
09:56<andythenorth>you'll need a cargo translation table. ot one?
09:56<andythenorth>got *
09:56<bolli>Is that the cargotable{ } ?
09:57<bolli>ok, yep, got one of those :)
09:57*andythenorth wonders what action 3 is in nml :P
09:57*andythenorth wikis
09:58<Stimrol>I am running a server with very hard setup, I am thinking of adding weight multiplayer for Pikka 's UKRS2 newgrf. What is recommended settings, I now have slope steepness set to 10% and no weight multiplier
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09:59<andythenorth>graphics {} block
09:59<andythenorth>cargo_identifier: spritegroup;
09:59<Pinkbeast>Stimrol: I find 3x is about right - certainly no more with the very early locomotives
09:59<bolli>Ah, thanks andy :)
10:00<bolli>I missed that reading through it... :)
10:00<Pinkbeast>And don't try and move cargo with the Planet or Crampton unless it's downhill :-/
10:00<Stimrol>pink and is that okay with 10% slope
10:00<@Alberth>Stimrol: there are no globally agreed recommended settings, it depends on what you like
10:01<Pikka>personally I play with 5x and 3%
10:01<Pinkbeast>10% is extremely high
10:02<Stimrol>Alberth, yes I know, it is just if I will overkill it with highest slope and then adding multiplier also
10:02<bolli>Next question...
10:02<@Alberth>Pinkbeast: I guess that's why it is called 'hard setup' :)
10:02<bolli>GPL or CC licences?
10:02<andythenorth>bolli: if you ever need anything more complicated, use a switch and check vars like cargo_type_in_veh, cargo_classes, or cargo_subtype
10:02<andythenorth>GPL, v2
10:02<bolli>Thanks andy :)
10:02<andythenorth>CC is messier
10:03<@Alberth>Stimrol: that depends also on the set of vehicles that you use, the best approach is to try it in a test game
10:03<Pinkbeast>I think weight multiplier is a better approach than an aggressive slope setting - slope setting makes no difference to accelerating trains on the flat, obviously.
10:04<@Alberth>Pinkbeast: they serve different needs; high slope setting makes you desperately avoid slopes
10:04<Pinkbeast>Alberth: obviously yes
10:04<Stimrol>using ukrs, and yes true it only slows them down and make players have to think about TE
10:04<andythenorth>weight multiplier will kill you with UKRS 2
10:04<andythenorth>it makes it not fun
10:04<Stimrol>maybe more thought for NARS :)
10:04<Pinkbeast>The Long Boiler and Coppernob are OK on freight with a weight multiplier
10:05<V453000>I think weight multipler is a poor decision for all train sets, perhaps except japan
10:06<V453000>but you usually dont play japan to have a cargo game
10:06<Stimrol>Could maybe be fun to try the authors setting 5x and 3%, but 3% is makeing the slopes much easier :)
10:07<Stimrol>I am trying a setup with fund only for industries V453000
10:07<Pikka>higher weight multiplier gives you more differentiation between locomotives on the flat, too
10:07<V453000>it does, but you can brutally abuse things on downhill
10:07<V453000>which is nice but imo should stay within some boundaries
10:07<andythenorth>I need all my trains at top speed for cargo coal :P
10:08<andythenorth>coal / goal /s
10:08<Pikka>just need more/longer trains, andy :P
10:08<Pinkbeast>V453: I disagree - for example in UKRS1 if you don't have a weight multiplier there's little incentive to use the 0-8-0 freight over the 0-6-0 because in practice even the 0-6-0 can whisk coal trains about
10:08<andythenorth>fewer shorter trains is a good strategy for cargo goal
10:09*Pinkbeast hops on a vehicle with an 1-1-0 wheel arrangement and zooms off, anyway, see you all later
10:09<Stimrol>V453000, what is it the weight multiplier going to change on downhill?
10:09<andythenorth>but more, shorter trains means you have to dick around with escape depots or queing tracks or n-tile stations
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10:09<V453000>for full trains? Trains will accelerate like instantly on downhill ofc
10:09<Pikka>do you, andy?
10:09<Pikka>where's the server at? :)
10:09<V453000>weight multiplier just creates a stupidly high differenece between full and empty trains imo
10:10<Stimrol>that is nice factor, that you could have little troube also on downhill
10:10<Stimrol>Pikka andy's or mine?
10:10<V453000>honestly UKRS1 with any multiplier is really poor as it makes engines like the modern steamrers or GEC91 basically useless, the AL10 becomes the only considerable option
10:10<Stimrol>thought so :)
10:12<andythenorth>maybe time for an MP cargo game?
10:12<andythenorth>I can only play in the evenings
10:12<andythenorth>and only then if my ADSL holds up :P
10:12<Stimrol>multiplier is HP and slope is TE
10:14<Stimrol>This is a nice pointers I got, and I will probably have to tweak it a little in the beginning
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10:16<Stimrol>thanks for the help, now I know a bit more about the weight multiplier, because I never tried it out, because there is a lot between 2-255 in the setup :)
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10:23<andythenorth>RVs are so fricking faceted
10:23<andythenorth>have to consider overtaking, station type, etc
10:24*andythenorth also wonders why zeph bothers with the articulated (fifth wheel) trucks
10:24<andythenorth>there are non-articulated ones which are faster + have same capacity, with none of the hassles
10:24<drac_boy>problem is the axle loading :p
10:25<drac_boy>thats why in real life a 18 wheel is lighter than 10 wheel in road surface sense :)
10:26<andythenorth>yeah...but ottd doesn't care about that
10:26<Pikka>I showed you my HOQVS plans, didn't I andy?
10:26<drac_boy>andythenorth players do? :P
10:28<drac_boy>anyway I had a quick question for someone...
10:29<@peter1138>did you lose it?
10:29<V453000>I think he is typing it
10:29<drac_boy>does the callback 14B anc 14C basically mean you can have one industry that more or less can randomize its input&output at build time? (like for example one farm may output crop1 but another farm output crop2 instead even although its the same industry id basically)
10:31<drac_boy>V453000 thank you for figuring that out :P
10:31<@peter1138>drac_boy, basically, yes
10:31<andythenorth>Pikka: they had no Q in previously? o_O
10:31<@peter1138>had implies you don't have it any more
10:32<drac_boy>V453000 are you a cow?
10:32<V453000>you didnt know?
10:32<Pikka>well it's hovs2
10:32<Pikka>thus hoqvs :)
10:33<Pinkbeast>V$53: Er since the AM10's a pax EMU I don't see how weight multiplier affects its viability at all
10:33<andythenorth>drac_boy: use those cbs with caution, they shaft unwary players
10:33<andythenorth>there's industry in FIRS that uses it, and it shafted me :P
10:35<andythenorth>IRL, all fertiliser is delivered by DC10 and 737 right?
10:35*andythenorth has an idea using industry airports
10:35<Pikka>sounds plausible andy
10:36<Pikka>new airports! \o/
10:36<drac_boy>V453000 are you a dairy or beef cow tho? ;) heh heh
10:36<andythenorth>Pikka: got anything that would pass for an air tractor?
10:36<drac_boy>andythenorth the farm thing was only an example. I wasn't going to use it for extreme industries :)
10:36<Pikka>the low-wing plane in genav8?
10:36<Pikka>it's not very airtractor though
10:38<V453000>Pinkbeast: AL10, not AM10
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10:38<drac_boy>Pinkbeast unless I've noted it wrong ... a passenger is still a weighted cargo ... so one passenger is 1/16t at a multiplier of x1, you can see how many passengers at a higher multiplier can start adding several tons to a train
10:39<Pikka>cargo multiplier isn't applied to passengers afaia
10:39<@peter1138>passengers aren't freight
10:39<Pikka>perhaps they should be
10:39<drac_boy>peter1138 if its not then why is it assigned in the cargo weights?
10:40<Pinkbeast>Even if it did at 35 tons of carriage to 2 1/2 tons of pax it would hardly make much difference at typical multiplier settings
10:40<drac_boy>Pinkbeast well I've noted otherwise with low-power carriages but might be just my experience tho
10:40<@peter1138>drac_boy, well how many people do you know weigh 0kg?
10:40<Pinkbeast>drac: I think it's your imagination - I don't think pax weight is multiplied up at all
10:41<drac_boy>pinkbeast or it means the weight multiplier is excluded from at least one cargo class
10:41<@peter1138>the multiplier is explicitly for freight
10:41<drac_boy>either way I've had enough problem with these smaller railcars that barely can climb on low settings alone
10:42<Pinkbeast>V453: the AL1? I think that's more to do with OTTD (absent NuTracks and friends) not representing the costs of electrification
10:42<@peter1138>if (!CargoSpec::Get(cargo)->is_freight) return 1;
10:42<andythenorth>has someone fucked up their cargo newgrf and set the weight multiplier on PAX? o_O
10:42<@peter1138>return _settings_game.vehicle.freight_trains;
10:43<drac_boy>pinkbeast I always did wonder why certain costs are a bit out of whack .. such as airports being way too cheap to build etc
10:43<andythenorth>that would break RV stops too wouldn't it? o_O
10:43<drac_boy>but meh :)
10:43<drac_boy>I always run my games with basecost parameters set high for a lot of things, can't remember one time I ever disabled basecost at all
10:43<Pinkbeast>Sure, if you can electrify everywhere, it doesn't make sense to build 9Fs when electric freight locomotives turn up.
10:43<andythenorth>so probably drac_boy is just wrong about pax :)
10:45<Pikka>he is, but I still think he's right that passengers /should/ be affected by the multiplier
10:45<Pikka>there's no logical reason for the exception
10:46<Pinkbeast>I disagree - the multiplier's there because freight trains are artifically short in OTTD, but passenger trains aren't
10:46<drac_boy>me wonder what else could be causing a fully loaded railcar to gain another few tons if its not the industry cargo >_<
10:46<andythenorth>Pinkbeast: I disagree :)
10:46<@peter1138>if your freight trains aren't artifically short then you shouldn't be using the multiplier
10:46<drac_boy>artifically short? you don't know of the mammoth train feature ever since the patch introduced it? :)
10:46<drac_boy>just saying heh
10:47<@peter1138>yeah but most people don't make 20-plus-tile long trains
10:47*andythenorth does
10:47<andythenorth>but only with NARS 2 or canset
10:47<Pinkbeast>The way time and distance scales make it difficult for trains to traverse junctions doesn't help there.
10:47<andythenorth>it's bad form to do it with UKRS 2
10:47<andythenorth>my NARS 2 trains never have 3 P42s on the front though :P
10:48<andythenorth>but the freight trains will have lots of SD 40s
10:48*andythenorth suspects Amtrak don't need 3 P42s on one train for power
10:48<andythenorth>but because they break
10:48<andythenorth>and crash into trucks a lot
10:48<andythenorth>the UKRS 2 thread attracts some interestingly passive aggressive posts :)
10:49<drac_boy>actually some of the long distance trains especially autotrain do have two locomotives often
10:49<andythenorth>or is it just aggressive?
10:49*andythenorth can never tell
10:49<drac_boy>but most other things are only one locomotive .. except for the push-pull trains (even then some of these are just one locomotive and one "engine-less baggage locomotive")
10:49<Pikka>I have invented another curved line \o/
10:50<drac_boy>andythenorth if you wanted a true freight train, go back several years ago to the CP railroad through the british columbia mountain
10:51<andythenorth>drac_boy: have you been there?
10:51*Pinkbeast stalks Tal's houses' thread
10:51<drac_boy>2-3 SD40 up front ... a set of 4 helper SD40 in middle ... and two helper-controlled remote SD40 on tail ...!
10:51<andythenorth>drac_boy: I was in the Rockies for 3 months in 1998
10:51<andythenorth>game set and match to me I think
10:51<andythenorth>on this point
10:51<bolli>No closing our pubs Pikka!
10:51<Pinkbeast>If I wanted a true freight train I'd go to Peterborough (ugh!) and watch the ECML, that doesn't need any time machines
10:52<andythenorth>I want a false freight train
10:52<bolli>They're already managing well enough on their own :(
10:52<drac_boy>andythenorth sadly I've only been to victoria twice .. and Squash (right name?) once ... everything else has been from articles written by now-retired engineers themself etc
10:52<andythenorth>or fright train
10:52<Pinkbeast>Wouldn't a lot of empty hoppers be a false freight train?
10:53<andythenorth>Pikka: the self-destroying building thing - burn out a car :P
10:53<andythenorth>leave it for 1 month
10:53<andythenorth>or have picniccers :P
10:53<andythenorth>depending on the social state of the town o_O
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10:55<andythenorth>also, do your pubs accept alcohol? o_O
10:55<Pikka>they could I suppose
10:56<Pikka> there you go drac_boy, some pineappletrains at work
10:56<andythenorth>do you have a bottle shop in TaI?
10:57<Pikka>there's two pubs, the country one and the town one, I could make them accept alcohol if it's defined...
10:59<@peter1138>that's calling for a hopper unloader
10:59<drac_boy>andythenorth and Pikka do you two think that food producing industries should still be placed inside a town rather than out in the country? brewery, bakery, whatever
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11:02<Kjetil>industrial size bakeries and breweries do not need to be placed inside a town. Allthough most industry is
11:02<Stimrol>Pikka this was the longest train I have seen in my life
11:02<drac_boy>Kjetil mm good suggestion
11:03<drac_boy>guess I could think about a 2x2 or bigger sized food factory of some sort
11:05<Pikka>andythenorth, are there any other cargos you'd like town buildings to accept while I'm at it?
11:06*andythenorth thinks
11:06<bolli>Livestock or Grain?
11:06<bolli>For commercial buildings...
11:07<andythenorth>Pikka: all up to you, FIRS has these covered with black hole industries...but:
11:07<andythenorth>goods, alcohol, food, petrol
11:07<andythenorth>and for bizarre, player-induced reasons, fruit :|
11:07<Pikka>well, they all accept goods and food already...
11:08<Kjetil>what about clothing ?
11:08<Pikka>petrol I'm not sure about since I have my own black hole for that
11:08<oskari892>Andythenorth: Do you have both Sawmill and Paper factory in Arctic FIRS?
11:08<oskari892>It would be nice, at least here in Finland there is both on IRL economy
11:08<andythenorth>there's also building materials, and probably will be cars
11:09<andythenorth>oskari892: I'm removing Sawmill from Arctic Basic
11:09<andythenorth>for game balance reasons
11:09<oskari892>Ok, is it in something other Arctic version?
11:10<andythenorth>it's in main 'FIRS' economy
11:10*peter1138 checks bananas for tai updates :p
11:10<oskari892>Andy: Okay
11:10<andythenorth>and DanMacK wants to do a Canadian economy, which probably doubles for most of sub-arctic
11:11<oskari892>Andythenorth: Have you seen DanMacK lately?
11:11<andythenorth>not for a few weeks
11:11<andythenorth>he's taking a break
11:11<oskari892>Okay :)
11:11<oskari892>He'll be back in a few weeks or so?
11:12<@peter1138>i thought oztrans had a monopoly on canadian things ;p
11:13<drac_boy>canadian industries .. that would so have to include grain BIG time :P
11:14<drac_boy>and a bit of potatos for the sake of the eastern proviences :)
11:14<oskari892>He planned Finnish economy too
11:14<andythenorth>potatos o_O
11:14<Pikka>not yet peter1138
11:14<drac_boy>or lumbers (although that already exists) for west canada
11:14<andythenorth>vegetables are a bit lacking in FIRS
11:14<Pikka>you can have one soon if you want to test it :)
11:14<Pikka>meh @ vegetables
11:14<Pikka>"grain" :}
11:14<chester_>men, is it possible to only recompile 1 header and keep every other header precompiled, then compile everything?
11:14<andythenorth>green stuff is bad
11:14<Kjetil>eat your vegetables!
11:14<andythenorth>is TaI savegame compatible?
11:15<andythenorth>let me rephrase
11:15<oskari892>Potatos here too, and peat :)
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11:15<andythenorth>is TaI beta 0.3 compatible?
11:15<@peter1138>i'd have to start a new game
11:15<@peter1138>but tai is worth it
11:15<bolli>Out of asking, What does 1.3 break?
11:15*andythenorth should fix this arctic economy before a new game
11:15<bolli>against 1.2...
11:15<Kjetil>how about garbage disposal ?
11:15<andythenorth>but first I have to beat frosch's Silicon Valley script
11:16<Pikka>it will probably work, but you won't get the full effect of the set if you're applying it to an already existing game
11:16<@peter1138>i'm only 6 years into this one, heh
11:16<andythenorth>garbage disposal is the most boring industry chain ever
11:16<@peter1138>(game years, doh)
11:16<@peter1138>bolli, nothing in theory
11:16<Kjetil>andythenorth: unless you are the mob in napoli ? :P
11:16<@peter1138>bolli, but that's why you get to test it
11:17<bolli>right... :p
11:17<bolli>What I actually meant, what from 1.2 will work with 1.3 and what wont- i.e. NewGRFs, scenarios
11:18<Pikka>everything will work
11:18<bolli>Without changes?
11:18<bolli>Ok, thanks :)
11:19<bolli>I was worried that I'd have to go through my set of multiplayer scenarios and change them...
11:19<Kjetil>andythenorth: is it still boring if you add recycling?
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11:20<Pikka>do you want the industries too, peter1138? I don't think they're broken at the moment.
11:21<Pikka>I haven't started breaking them yet :)
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11:23<Pikka>pub-be-gone seems to work, I guess I'll release a version or something. or should I quickly put the rookeries in first?
11:24<andythenorth>rabbit warrens too?
11:24<andythenorth>for food?
11:24<andythenorth>and a monastery
11:24<andythenorth>and a trout lake?
11:24<andythenorth>and a castle?
11:24<andythenorth>Kjetil: recycling exists in FIRS
11:24<andythenorth>Pikka: can I haz industries?
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11:25<Pikka>castles might be good, as newobjects or something :)
11:25<andythenorth>it would be nice to play an industry set, and report bugs to Other People
11:25<Kjetil>andythenorth: hippie! :P
11:25<Pikka>I'm actually not sure if much has changed in the industries since the last release, but sure
11:25<andythenorth>instead of having to fix my own
11:25<Pikka>I haven't done anything with the 19th c industries yet
11:25<drac_boy>andythenorth heh well feel free to check mine a month or two? ;)
11:25<andythenorth>wow, you have a 0.1 nearly ready to go?
11:26<andythenorth>where's your repo? o_O
11:26<drac_boy>its only sprites and some newgrf wiki notes now :p
11:28<drac_boy>might ask about a tt-forum website when I think I have enough to share pre-grf but we'll see about that tho
11:28<andythenorth>me and Foobar estimated 1 year to get FIRS to a playable state ;)
11:28<andythenorth>we were off by 100%
11:29<drac_boy>heh well thats mainly because of trying to put so many things into it? :)
11:29<andythenorth>with more than 2 people contributing, neither had kids or final year degree projects ;)
11:32<Pikka>I'm confused
11:32<Pikka>0..4 First cargo type
11:32<Pikka>5..9 Second cargo type
11:32<Pikka>10..14 Third cargo type
11:32<Pikka>surely those bit ranges are wrong :D
11:33<Pikka>for callback 2A
11:33<Pikka>surely it's just the first 3 bytes?
11:35*andythenorth puzzles
11:35<@peter1138>do we have 3-byte callback results?
11:35*drac_boy needs some non-usa tippler wagon photos -__
11:35<Pikka>it's a 4 byte and the highest byte is ignored
11:35<@peter1138>(good luck returning cargo types >= 32)
11:36<Pikka>if it's the same format as the property
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11:36<@peter1138>callback results are still limit to 15 bits iirc
11:36<Pikka>okay, I guess it makes sense then
11:37<Pikka>makes it a bit of an unreadable mess though :) I guess it's not unique among callbacks in that respect
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11:41<Pikka>of course callbacks are limited to 15 bits
11:41<Pikka>sorry, it's late :)
11:41<@peter1138>i think there was talking about making them 32 bit (or some such) as some point
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11:51<drac_boy>mmm 17 wagon ids used and I haven't even gotten to any open top or special covered top ones yet
11:52<drac_boy>fun..that is
11:52<@peter1138>that's okay, you've got 65535 in total
11:52<drac_boy>more like 0 to 115 actually :)
11:53<andythenorth>Pikka: did you lose interest in pineapple, or lack of time?
11:53<Pikka>bit of both
11:53<drac_boy>andythenorth ask him where the sea air ports are? :)
11:53<Pikka>if I remade it it wouldn't be all-in-one
11:54<@peter1138>drac_boy, nah, nobody uses ttdpatch
11:55<drac_boy>actually they do
11:55<Pikka>nobody we care about uses ttdpatch, he means :)
11:57<drac_boy>pikka then they're missing out on some nice networks ;)
11:58<drac_boy>I meant to ask you pikka...why are the seaplanes included in av8 even although they can't be used?
11:58<Pikka>they can be
12:04<drac_boy>I should go find something to eat so I'm going now heh
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12:11<Pikka>hmm andy, that will confuse people
12:12<Pikka>my petrol stations are chibi versions of your petrol stations, but don't accept petrol :) I suppose I should make it so they do... or so that they don't appear if FIRS is loaded.
12:18<andythenorth>one or the other :)
12:19<andythenorth>you've been watching waybalu?
12:21<Pikka>not lately
12:21<Pikka>and there...
12:21<Pikka>petrol stations now accept 4/8 petr if defined, pubs now accept 4/8 beer if defined
12:21<Pikka>no, not beer
12:22<Pikka>rookery can wait, I'll up the grf
12:22*MNIM leaves again
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12:23<Pikka>oh snap
12:23<Pikka>the industry grf is version 6
12:23<ZxBiohazardZx>out of curiosity: why is there the magic number 13 in bridge.h MAX_BRIDGES
12:23<Pikka>how much am I going to have to fix if I bump it to 7?
12:23<ZxBiohazardZx>static const uint MAX_BRIDGES = 13; ///< Maximal number of available bridge specs.
12:24<@planetmaker>not too much, Pikka. But... better got for v8 straight away
12:24<Pikka>yeah, that's what I meant :)
12:24<ZxBiohazardZx>why is it 13 and not anything else
12:24<Pikka>because that was the number of bridges in TTD
12:24<@planetmaker>TTD had 11 bridges
12:25<Pikka>did it though?
12:25<Pikka>yes, openttd added two new tubular one
12:25<@planetmaker>the two additional tube bridges are openttd
12:25<Pikka>because that was the number in openttd, then :)
12:26<Pikka>really? nothing broke?
12:26<Pikka>I remember bumping UKRS2 and the whole thing fell in a heap
12:27<Pikka>oh, undefined strings ahoy
12:27<Pikka>that's not too bad
12:27<@planetmaker>Pikka, of course you'll need to do some conversion... e.g. look at callbacks and their size
12:28<MNIM>So, let me get this straight.
12:28<@peter1138>hmm chips won't compile :p
12:28<@planetmaker>Pikka, not sure there exists such summary for NFO. But NML 0.2 is basically grf v7 while NML 0.3 is grf v8. Thus this applies approx. to NFO, too:
12:28<MNIM>this bridge limit has not been changed because...
12:28<andythenorth>-Whistling tunes we hid in the dunes by the seaside
12:28<Pikka>because you haven't changed it yet
12:28<andythenorth>Whistling tunes we're kissing baboons in the jungle
12:28<@planetmaker>MNIM, because noone implented proper NewGRF bridges
12:28<@peter1138>MNIM, it's never been made dynamic
12:29*MNIM can guess those reasons. :P
12:30<andythenorth>peter1138: any compile error?
12:30<ZxBiohazardZx>so there is no actual other reason then "we just dont have more"
12:30<andythenorth>it's only nfo + C pre-processor
12:30-!-TrueBrain [] has quit [Quit: reboot]
12:30<@peter1138>Processing file "chips.nfo".
12:30<@peter1138>Error on sprite 342.
12:31*bolli goes to complete the theory of "If you can't work it out yourself, find an open source project to use as an example"
12:31<@peter1138>. //!!Error (227): Offset 31: Unknown data does not allow processesing past this point.
12:31<@peter1138>. //!!Fatal Error (64): Expected more data for prop 1A. (1 bytes at 119.)
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12:32<andythenorth>peter1138: clean r222 compiles for me :|
12:32<@peter1138>i don't see anything wrong with it mind you
12:32<andythenorth>GRFCodec trunk r944
12:32<@peter1138>hmm, ok
12:33<@peter1138>clean works, so... my fault :p
12:33<@peter1138>weird though
12:35<@peter1138>oh i see
12:36<@peter1138>now it compiles but doesn't work :D
12:37<andythenorth>that sounds more like my usual experience ;)
12:38<ZxBiohazardZx>from a n00b point of view, would just changing it from static const to static not do the tric?
12:40<Pikka>new TaI houses and industries are on a banana, peter1138 and andythenorth
12:41<ZxBiohazardZx>ow great Pikka, that animated image looked great!
12:45*andythenorth likes a banana
12:46<andythenorth>why 'check online content'
12:46<andythenorth>instead of 'get online content' or something?
12:46<andythenorth>or just 'content download'
12:46-!-Sturmi [] has joined #openttd
12:47<andythenorth>get addons
12:47<andythenorth>'send me the codez'
12:47<andythenorth>'all the modz'
12:47<ZxBiohazardZx>gief me all your monejz
12:48<Pikka>whoops, petrol stations appear to accept plastic instead of mail. Oh well. :)
12:48<@planetmaker>it's the future. It's plastic. It's fantastic
12:48<ZxBiohazardZx>its fuel containers
12:48<ZxBiohazardZx>in the future your car will drive on plastics?
12:49<+michi_cc>Pikka: It's not an exhausting list, but the wiki does have a short summary on GRF changes:
12:50<+michi_cc>And did you see ?
12:52<Pikka>I did, thanks
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12:59<andythenorth>now /me can steal pikka's industry ideas :x
12:59<Pikka>not yet you can't
12:59<Pikka>there's nothing in there that wasn't in PBI :P
13:00-!-ZxBiohazardZx [] has quit [Quit: Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.]
13:00<andythenorth>so I see :)
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13:02<Pikka>when I do get around to updating it, I'm going to dump the entire TTD primary production system and code my own in the grf >_>
13:02<Pikka>cue cries of "that's what gamescripts are for"
13:02<andythenorth>eh no
13:02<andythenorth>that's what newgrf is for ;)
13:03<andythenorth>what will you do?
13:04<Pikka>reduce production for the 19th century
13:04<Pikka>have a more refined form of the "estimated resources"
13:04<Pikka>do something interesting with farms
13:06<andythenorth>seasonal production? :P
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13:06<Pikka>*maybe* give industries a crude internal "economy" for the purposes of production increase/decrease/shutdown
13:06<andythenorth>changing production according to epoch might be an idea worth stealing
13:06<Pikka>seasonal production would probably be annoying
13:07<andythenorth>+lots to annoying :)
13:07<Pikka>coal miner strikes?
13:08<andythenorth>1984 even
13:08<@Alberth>sounds more like a disaster :)
13:09<@peter1138>== no more broken sprites
13:10<@peter1138>might not be right but as there's nothing in there to set a register then it shouldn't be reading them either
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13:15<andythenorth>will test after bath time
13:20<Stimrol>Pikka, I would not find this tal buildings ingame by searching "tal" had to type "pikka" or "houses" just so you know
13:21<Pikka>that's because it's an I, not an l :)
13:21<Stimrol>ahh silly me :)
13:22<Pikka>filthy swine
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13:23<@peter1138>i'm guessing TaI industries isn't going to work well with FIRS?
13:25<Stimrol>and also me because I am sound blind, thought it was Tall :D
13:29<Pikka>do any industry sets work well together?
13:29<@peter1138>probably not
13:29<@peter1138>especially as firs has like 5678493 industries
13:31<Kjetil>more industrious than a hooker on crack ?
13:33<@Alberth>most hookers on crack don't own any industry :p
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13:35<Pikka>and he should know
13:35<Pikka>anyway, bedtime
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13:39<andythenorth>peter1138: you have a bigger FIRS than me :O
13:39<andythenorth>do you have a secret patch to increase number of industries o_O
13:40*SpComb has yet to play a FIRS game with more than one of each industry
13:40<SpComb>it would need a 512x512 map or so :)
13:41<@peter1138>i'm using 512x512, but with loads of water and very low towns
13:41<SpComb>256x256 would get crowded with more than one of each
13:41<andythenorth>iirc, 256x256 can't even build 1 of each
13:41<@peter1138>damn, chips stations don't draw passengers :p
13:42<andythenorth>I am misanthropic
13:42<andythenorth>I don't want to see more people than I have to, even in pixel form
13:42<andythenorth>on 256x256 with 'normal industry' map gen setting, you should get ~1 of each FIRS industry
13:43<andythenorth>55 is about right
13:43<andythenorth>on low or very low, broken chains everywhere
13:43<andythenorth>also applies to any smaller map
13:43<SpComb>hmm, I play with low industries, and no broken chains, I think
13:43<V453000>would be wise to always force at least 1 of each to spawn at start
13:43<SpComb>except sugar cane plantation thingie produces nothing
13:43<andythenorth>it might be doing the 'build at least one thing'
13:43<andythenorth>SpComb: sounds like a bug, which FIRS version?
13:44<@peter1138>same here
13:45<andythenorth>temperate and / or arctic climates, right?
13:45<andythenorth>that industry shouldn't even be available to you :)
13:45<andythenorth>that's one of the bugs
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24867 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2012-12-28 18:45:30 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>belarusian - 40 changes by KorneySan
13:45<@DorpsGek>greek - 9 changes by Evropi
13:45<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 51 changes by fanioz
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 29 changes by wojteks86
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian - 2 changes by KorneySan
13:46*andythenorth will fix that :P
13:46<andythenorth>lots of 0.8.x trivial versions :|
13:46<@peter1138>is it possible to convert implicit orders to real orders?
13:48<Rubidium>no(t yet)
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14:16<andythenorth>meh, I should make FIRS code explicitly enable industries instead of explicitly disable :P
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14:21<andythenorth>peter1138: CHIPS fix appears to work :)
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14:29<andythenorth>have some bananas and chips
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14:33<andythenorth>finally, I have a project with no open issues :o
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14:50*andythenorth breaks FIRS 0.8.2 savegames :P
14:51<andythenorth>Terkhen: a FIRS string changed, if you want to update translations?
14:51<andythenorth>also planetmaker ^
14:51<andythenorth>I'm going to tag and release any time tonight, can wait if you want to commit lang updates ;)
14:52*Kjetil ponders how planetmaker's bowels works.. him being a planet maker and all
14:52*andythenorth never ponders that kind of thing
14:52<@peter1138>ask slartibartfast
14:53<@peter1138>he looks pretty normal though, if you ask me
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15:10<@Terkhen>andythenorth: can you point me to the specific string? I don't have much time to commit it myself today
15:12<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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15:19<andythenorth>Terkhen: pull and search SUGAR_PLANTATION in the lang file
15:19<andythenorth>change is 'Sugarcane Plantation' -> 'Sugar Plantation'
15:20<andythenorth>STR_FUND_SUGAR_PLANTATION probably needs no change, just the identifier changed
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15:20<@Terkhen>let me see
15:24<@peter1138>FS#5413 - Crash on Applying NewGRF Changes
15:24<@peter1138>no really?
15:24<@Terkhen>andythenorth: done
15:24<andythenorth>Terkhen: thanks :)
15:24<@peter1138>although i assumed mid-game, heh
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15:58<@planetmaker>hm, the FIRS german translation needs more than a quick update :-)
16:03<andythenorth>oh yes :)
16:03<andythenorth>you were away ;)
16:12<@peter1138>hmm, when was basque added
16:15<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r24868 /trunk/projects (4 files) (2012-12-28 21:15:19 UTC)
16:15<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r24797): Update VS projects to include Basque translation.
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16:36<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r24869 /trunk/src/lang (11 files in 2 dirs) (2012-12-28 21:36:24 UTC)
16:36<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5411]: Unify the way maglev is written
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16:45<murr4y>can you get messages when trains get lost but not when getting older?
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16:51<andythenorth>is flying grain around wrong?
16:51<andythenorth>even for a cargo goal GS?
16:55<@planetmaker>should it be wrong?
16:56<andythenorth>dunno :)
16:56<andythenorth>I might need to do it
16:56<andythenorth>to get silver even
16:57<@peter1138>are so slow
16:57<@peter1138>that you need either masses of them, or huge ones
16:58<@peter1138>i'm guessing lots of small ones is better to provide a steadier supply of cargo
17:01<@peter1138>so we need an inccentive
17:01<@peter1138>like not allowing more than 1 ship at a dock
17:01<andythenorth>that would ruin my game :)
17:01<andythenorth>but yeah
17:01<andythenorth>maybe 5 :P
17:01<@peter1138>and then multi-stop docks
17:01<andythenorth>or multi-docks
17:02<andythenorth>not xor :P
17:02<@peter1138>multi-stop docks!
17:02<@peter1138>gah, my single coal mine is providing too much coal
17:03<andythenorth>quadruple boost?
17:03<@peter1138>so the steel mill stops accepting it
17:03<andythenorth>oh PBI :)
17:03<@peter1138>well, TAI industries now ;p
17:03<SpComb>that was terrible
17:03<SpComb>when the secondary idustries stopped accepting
17:05<andythenorth>road vehicle limit :(
17:05<SpComb>but I don't really get the dbsetxl cargo trains around 1940-50
17:05<SpComb>I guess you're supposed to electrify everything by then
17:15<SpComb>last game I just stopped playing once the BR75 expired, never upgraded, pretty lame
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17:39<@peter1138>shame that roadstops are called roadstops :S
17:39<drac_boy>sounds like a bit odd name to me too :/
17:40<@Terkhen>good night
17:40<drac_boy>bye Terkhen
17:47<drac_boy>anyone here think that "carrying axles" in a locomotive classification would meant unpowered axles for certain?
17:49<+michi_cc>SpComb: It's called WWII.
18:02<drac_boy>oh geeze... 550psi boiler on a metre gauge locomotive
18:02*drac_boy must find more to read
18:05-!-orudge` is now known as orudge
18:11<andythenorth>the commuter airport is rather better than most of the other airports
18:11<andythenorth>as long as you only want small planes
18:11<andythenorth>and helicopters
18:12<@peter1138>SL_MAX_VERSION 255
18:12<@peter1138>that's... close :p
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: is there an actual reason for that limit?
18:27<@peter1138>not really, it's a 16 bit value
18:27<@peter1138>and who can forget the fun of minor versions
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause>no idea, when i came along that already said "do not use!"
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause>i once suggested to use those for patched builds, but nobody caught onto that idea
18:30<andythenorth>too many vehicles in game :P
18:35<oskari89>Is there currently a limit for ID's of rail vehicles?
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18:36<@peter1138>oskari89, yes
18:36<@peter1138>andythenorth,, hah
18:36<andythenorth>har har
18:37<@peter1138>(that's not multiple stations)
18:37<andythenorth>that would definitely screw my current game :)
18:37<@peter1138>it screws any game at the moment as there's no code to select a destination
18:37<@peter1138>to the ship tries to go to st->xy
18:37<@peter1138>which... aint gonna work
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>oskari89: if you use grf version 8, 64k vehicle-ids, and 16k in the articulation callback
18:40<@peter1138>andythenorth, and it doesn't necessarily mean that ships can't use the same dock concurrently
18:42<Eddi|zuHause># IHR SEID SO LEISE
18:54*andythenorth forgot to go to sleep
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20:17*drac_boy wishes flygon was around
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21:23<drac_boy>hi snail
21:23<Snail>hey there
21:24<drac_boy>how doing?
21:25<Snail>not too bad, thanks
21:27<drac_boy>doing ok
21:27<drac_boy>maybe going to bed soon tho :p
21:27<drac_boy>been typing in a lot of data cells for a while now :->
21:28<Snail>database work?
21:30<drac_boy>tracking table for grf :->
21:30<drac_boy>and btw nice "display" screenshot you posted in the french NG train thread :)
21:31<Snail>thanks :)
21:31<drac_boy>the 1975 thing in lower-right makes me thinking the little box is a single-axle railbus luggage trailer
21:31<Snail>hopefully the NG part will get done before next Xmas
21:32<Snail>close enough :p
21:32<Snail>the set also has them, but not with that railcar
21:32<drac_boy>you want know which railcar is my favorite however? :)
21:32<Snail>sure, what is it?
21:33<drac_boy>its not french sorry... VT133 or a Pig as its often called for its resemblence
21:33<Snail>oh, the one with the "nose" that stores the engine?
21:33<drac_boy>a few were sold originally for narrow gauge too
21:33<drac_boy>yeah .. double end noses indeed
21:33<Snail>yeah I know what you're referring to
21:34<drac_boy>some of them even sported "platforms" to both side of noses as to auger the insufficent rooftop baggage capacity
21:34<Snail>well, the french NG set has the De Dion JM that's even earlier than that :p but single-nosed
21:34<drac_boy>either way I just love them for some reason :)
21:34<drac_boy>driving them probably was not so much fun tho. mechanical transmission
21:34<Snail>those railcars were effectively buses on rails
21:34<drac_boy>snail here's something else to make you scratch your head ever more.....
21:34<Snail>railbuses :D
21:35<Snail>ok tell me
21:36<drac_boy> old bus .. drop onto new frame .. and a freight box to go on as well ... it was driven by the middle truck (3 trucks yeah) through chains...from the manual transmission
21:36<drac_boy>and don't ask about having to reverse one of these especially through a wye ... talk about neck crinks!
21:37<drac_boy>there was at least six different forms of these in size and seating capacity ... one thing in common tho was it was sooo much cheaper than a standard steam locomotive with only one baggage/coach car
21:37<drac_boy>no.4 would had meant it was the 4th model
21:39<Snail>3 trucks, but how was the articulation made?
21:39<drac_boy>snail well the "road" and rear sections were seperate
21:39<Snail>it looks like the front cab and the rear freight box are stuck together
21:39<drac_boy>ah...the gap inbetween is the articulation moment...
21:40<Snail>ah ok, although the gap seems quite small
21:40<drac_boy>well the "passenger" body is very narrow compared to the wide freight body
21:40<drac_boy>so I imagine it still had space to fit
21:40<drac_boy>btw snail in that second photo you can see where the rear road axle should had been ... the weld job is too visible :P
21:42<Snail>haha that's true
21:42<Snail>it's like the body of a small bus (or a large car) put on top of this thing
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21:42<drac_boy>snail and the cowcatcher always had its purpose. the line often shared land with cattle grounds .. aside to occassional rockslides
21:43<drac_boy>there were almost no fences at all back then
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21:43<drac_boy>such a different life..nowaday cowboys always keep their own cows fenced in
21:44<drac_boy>snail I know its technically a railcar and not railbus but can we complain about the Pacer in uk sharing a lot of road bus components including the turnouts-bouncy suspensions? :)
21:45<Snail>the Pacer? is it a kind of train?
21:45<Snail>all I know by that name is the AMC Pacer :D
21:47<drac_boy>its the name given to class 100 (or was it 101?) dmu
21:47<drac_boy>later ones were designed more as real railcars instead
21:51<drac_boy>snail anyway just how many different french things can you draw already? :P
21:52<Snail>12 more to go
21:52<Snail>actually doing one of them as we speak
21:52<Snail>(that's just for the NG set btw)
21:54<drac_boy>heh :)
21:54<drac_boy>I've been drawing some rough metre gauge sprites but not much to really share yet tho
21:56<Snail>nice! what kind of trains?
21:58<drac_boy>more or less generic although some of them do have a good resemble to real things such as a centercab locomotive with small hoods being alike to the OBB 1'Bo'1 diesel locomotive
21:58<drac_boy>or B'B' mallet that could had looked like any of the Saxon mallets
22:01<Snail>nice :) there were nice mallets in germany and austria
22:03<Snail>although some of the best were Swiss
22:04<drac_boy>snail this is pretty much the thing I modelled it after
22:04<drac_boy>mind the smoke .. I think its just coming to gripe with the heavy standard gauge wagons around the tight curve
22:04<drac_boy>(you can tell because of how the cab's roof is shadowed
22:06<Snail>looks like it's hauling SG wagons on top of NG tracks
22:06<drac_boy>snail I don't know if french had any name for them but these wagons are on whats called rollenbocks (sorry if I missed a letter or two)
22:07<drac_boy>basically special low open frame wagon that has standard gauge spacings on top
22:07<Snail>yeah :) in france they solved the problem differently... they built dual-gauge tracks :D
22:07<drac_boy>snail there is one unusual thing I did like in france-switzerland tho...
22:07<Snail>on some tracks there were two sets of rails with the same center, so the inner ones were metric (the engine would run on those) and the outer ones were standard
22:08<drac_boy>I keep forgetting the name but it was an all-adhersion railroad that had to go through some good mountains ... they didn't want to use racks .. one man finally solved that by making everything powered, even the freight vans
22:10<Snail>yes, the St-Gervais-Vallorcine railway
22:10<Snail>3rd-rail powered, all wagons were mounted on powered tracks to maximize TE
22:11<Snail>it's in my set recreating exactly the same concept :p
22:11<drac_boy>snail heh well as I recall reading they eventually found out not the whole train had to be powered all the times
22:11<drac_boy>some coaches did still have 3rd rail shoes just for the sake of electric lights
22:12<Snail>true, some wagons were unpowered
22:12<Snail>that's why, in the set, you can build a consist of all powered wagons, or just some powered and others not (which would be cheaper)
22:13<Snail>all that kind of rolling stock is retired now :(
22:13<drac_boy>heh :)
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22:16<Snail>there's some nice Swiss rolling stock too, running on the Swiss branch of that railroa
22:19<drac_boy>I'm going to bed anyway .. see you some next time then snail?
22:19<Snail>have a good night
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23:09<Stimrol>hello, is it possible to echoc in a private chat so the server can say something to the user in red color i.e.
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---Logclosed Sat Dec 29 00:00:33 2012