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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-01-01

---Logopened Tue Jan 01 00:00:36 2013
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03:10<V453000>hm, is there any way to return the feature where cloning a vehicle opens the window of that vehicle?
03:14<andythenorth>clone from the vehicle, not the depot?
03:14<andythenorth>I'm in 2 minds about this change :P
03:16<V453000>you cant clone so fast through depot
03:16<V453000>you need at least one vehicle open
03:17<V453000>and since you could just clone up to 20 trains or lock the depot/one train windows and clone endlessly .... the current solution isnt really helping anything, you just have to open that one train manually
03:19<andythenorth>because depot clone is more clicks / target acquisition?
03:20<andythenorth>so the really efficient, but totally hard to use behaviour: first clone opens a vehicle window, subsequent clones don't :P
03:20<V453000>mainly the target acquisition
03:21<V453000>yes that would be absolutely best :D
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03:50<@planetmaker>happy new year!
03:50<@planetmaker>and good morning :-)
03:50<Snail>or good night? :)
03:51<@planetmaker>nah :-) Was a rather short night... but gonna go to the bakery... or we'll have no fresh bread
03:51<Snail>I see :) but still dark here ;)
03:51<@planetmaker>open your eyes? ;-)
03:52<Snail>already opened :p
03:54<V453000>that could be a problem
03:54<V453000>hello :)
04:01<@Terkhen>happy new year and good morning :)
04:01<V453000>happy morning and good year :)
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05:22<@Terkhen>time for yet another "christmas" family meal, bbl
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05:52<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r24877 /trunk/src (4 files in 4 dirs) (2013-01-01 10:52:32 UTC)
05:52<@DorpsGek>-Fix: some whitespace "errors"
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06:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r24878 /trunk/src (57 files in 4 dirs) (2013-01-01 11:08:22 UTC)
06:08<@DorpsGek>-Update: the obligatory first of January commit
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07:55<drac_boy>happy new year already? :P heh
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08:00<Flygon>drac_boy, it's the 2nd of Janurary
08:00<Flygon>Get with the times, man
08:01*drac_boy whacks flygon
08:01<Flygon>Not in this roo
08:01<Flygon>You could get us kicked!
08:01<drac_boy>its the 1st .. and 08:01
08:01<@peter1138>Reliability: 0% Breakdowns since last service: 255
08:01<@peter1138>that's suboptimal
08:01<Flygon>peter1138: New Borg cube having troubles?
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08:17<andythenorth>got a release yet drac_boy? :)
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08:21<andythenorth>is Pikka
08:21<Flygon> New OpenTTD scenario: Smuggle Soaps into North Korea
08:22<Pikka>no it didnt
08:23<andythenorth>are you sure?
08:24<andythenorth>what does 2013 bring for pikkas?
08:24<Pikka>werk, or sommat like that
08:24<andythenorth>man has to eat
08:24<andythenorth>and buy catfood
08:25<andythenorth>and scuddles food
08:25<andythenorth>or is scuddles slef-supporint
08:26<Pikka>hard to tell
08:33*andythenorth has lego to make
08:33<andythenorth>but has been thinking about a GS for pikka industries
08:33<andythenorth>quite a simple one
08:33<andythenorth>dunno how to write it :P
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08:36<Pikka>let me write the industries first :)
08:36<andythenorth>TaI will have the same resource limit / closure stuff?
08:37<Pikka>similar concept, very different implementation
08:41<andythenorth>so TaI isn't good for some kind of mass-cargo goal
08:41<andythenorth>maybe something simple, like 'keep industries x y and z alive for 100 years'
08:41<Pikka>I don't know
08:41<andythenorth>and 'grow towns a b and c to some amount'
08:44<andythenorth>herp, or people like me should just use a bit more imagination when playing
08:44<andythenorth>ttd has always been a bit of a sandbox
08:45*drac_boy treats it like a real transport game at times ;)
08:47<V453000>"a bit"
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08:56<Pokka>I say I say I say
08:57<Pikka>what are you saying?
08:57<Pokka>what has two wheels and flies?
08:57<andythenorth>one of you is an imposter
08:58<Pokka>get out, madam!
08:58<Pikka>fine, I will
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08:59*andythenorth can't keep up with this social maelstrom
08:59<andythenorth>comings, goings
08:59<Pikka>isn't it
08:59<andythenorth>puts me all topsy turvy
08:59<drac_boy>heh heh
09:00<andythenorth>anybody want to talk about trains?
09:00<andythenorth>drac_boy probably does ;)
09:00*drac_boy points you to flygon too
09:00<Pikka>I wouldn't be surprised
09:00<drac_boy>flygon always has these crazy stories about austrlia and crappy train runnings
09:00<Flygon>I'm Victorian
09:00<Flygon>I think 1600mm is brilliant
09:00<Flygon>And find that two decks is the work of the devil
09:00<Flygon>Also, Trams are the best thing since sliced bread
09:01<Flygon>You might have seen our Trams exported to Edmonton, Seattle, San Francisco, as well as a few other American cities
09:01<Kjetil>I hate Trams :P
09:01<Flygon>And it makes me upset and angry there's no Aussie Tram GRF
09:02<Flygon>Kjetil, you're an evil New South Welshmen
09:02<Flygon>And I can say that legitemately
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09:02<Flygon>Because I'm half-New South Welsh
09:03<Kjetil>For I am the devil
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09:04<Pikka>anpanmantram \o/
09:05<Flygon>Japanese rail is weird...
09:05<Flygon>It looks so... industrial
09:05<Flygon>Even the drawings, going by Pixiv
09:06<Flygon>I upload a drawing of a Victorian Railways T-class... and, god
09:06<Flygon>It looks nothing like anything else on the site
09:06<Flygon>This is despite the T-class being a box on wheels
09:08<Pikka>yes indeedy, tosaden is the best den.
09:09<drac_boy>box on wheels = Toaster?
09:09<drac_boy>heh heh
09:09<Flygon>I've never seen such a flat-faced tram...
09:09<Flygon>drac_boy: It actually does resemble a toaster
09:09<Flygon> My cruddy drawing :P
09:10<drac_boy>flygon thats what they called similar things in europe and I think even uk as well
09:10<Flygon> Realistic toaster
09:11<Flygon>Pikka: I keep thinking you're Australia @_@"
09:12<drac_boy>flygon btw I don't know which one it is yet but there was a diesel locomotive in uk named Shredder
09:12<Flygon>Why so?
09:12<drac_boy>apparently that was what the silly exhaust sounded like
09:12<drac_boy>shredding all the times :)
09:12<Flygon>Was it a Turt-
09:12<Flygon>I see
09:13<Flygon>I search for 'Melbourne Tram' in YouTube... get instructions for how to drive around Trams
09:13<Flygon>Probably because peeps forget you can't U-turn around a Tram track without looking at the tracks
09:14<Flygon>To be fair, one thing I failed in my driving test was the tram bit
09:14<FLHerne>drac_boy: We also have Choppers, Tractors and Whistlers :-)
09:15<drac_boy>ah its class 33 apparently
09:15<FLHerne>Interesting, I haven't heard that one before :P
09:15<andythenorth>and gronks and sheds
09:15<FLHerne>Everyone I know calls them Cromptons
09:15<andythenorth>and tufs
09:15<andythenorth>tugs *
09:15<drac_boy>flherne the one I don't always get is 'skates' .. if they were so unreliable that they had to be used in pairs why did they even build them? :P
09:16<drac_boy>gronks? let me guess, thats class 09?
09:16<andythenorth>and 08
09:16<Pikka>09 is a supergronk
09:16<FLHerne>andythenorth: And Duffs and Bodysnatchers and Rats and McRats :P
09:16<drac_boy>silly name :p
09:16<Flygon>I feel terrible. I'm actually learning from this video. How DID I get my license?
09:16<drac_boy>FLHerne bodysnatchers? 0_o
09:17<FLHerne>drac_boy: 57s. They basically took the bodyshell and bogies from 47s, stripped out the innards, and put new engines in
09:17<Pikka>no they didn't
09:17<Pikka>they put old engines in :)
09:18<FLHerne>Pikka: New engines for the class, anyway
09:18<drac_boy>flherne that sounds like some of the usa diesel locomotives that had extra letterings .. like eg GP9M instead of GP9 ... new engine, sometimes altered body as well
09:18<drac_boy>andythenorth hoovers? as in "nothing sucks like it!" classic ads? :P
09:19<drac_boy>the keyword being 'suck' is the other definition .. not that its up-to-no-good
09:21<andythenorth>so wtf shall I do about FISH 2
09:21<andythenorth>which is a bit of a shambles
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09:21<Pikka>redesign it from the ground up, or the water up if you prefer
09:21<Pikka>you have the graphics, which is the tedious bit :)
09:22<andythenorth>I already did that once :P
09:22<andythenorth>then I started getting new graphics contributions :P
09:22<Pikka>why do you still have all these 1870 intros then? :P
09:22<Flygon>1870 is a tad confusing
09:22<andythenorth>yeah that :)
09:22<Pikka>I think fish2 is alright
09:23<andythenorth>ah I've figured out what's bugging me
09:23<Pikka>but needs more smallish passenger vessels, early on
09:23<Flygon>Also, we need a Meditteranian FISH... for 1000BC to 500AD
09:23<Flygon>Bronzepunk OpenTTD!
09:23<andythenorth>I was thinking of redesigining it to accomodate all the contributions promised
09:23<andythenorth>but then I might not get the contributions...
09:23<andythenorth>a sprite in the hand is worth two in the...
09:23<andythenorth>you get the idea
09:24<Flygon>It's a shame a good artist is hard to find
09:24<andythenorth>has anyone got a grf to v3?
09:24<drac_boy>flygon depends which kind of sprites you want done? :)
09:25<Flygon>drac_boy: Personally. Awstrawian Trains
09:25<V453000>did I miss a train discussion?
09:25<andythenorth>what version is AV8?
09:25<drac_boy>flygon heh
09:25<Pikka>andythenorth, gabe newell syndrome
09:25<Pikka>an inability to count to 3 :)
09:26<Flygon>Problem is, all Australian trains look the same. We based designs off each other's designs... it's basically like breeding a single family of rabbits with each other for 40 years, and all you end up with is the same rabbits
09:27<V453000> Trains change their power based on their mood. Your argument is invalid :D
09:28<Pikka>otoh, we could take the firefox route and increment the major version number 8 times in 3 months, after not changing it for 3 years.
09:29<Flygon>Pikka, double that 17, and you have the best FISH :)
09:30<andythenorth>so long
09:30<andythenorth>and thanks for
09:30*drac_boy thinks I am at something like 0.alpha-1 version or something :P
09:31<Pikka>you mean there's a grf, drac_boy?
09:31<drac_boy>useless individual-locos ones? :>
09:31<andythenorth>what is it about anyway?
09:32<drac_boy>that reminds me....should it be 0.alpha-1 or 0.1-alpha? :P
09:32<andythenorth>doesn't matter
09:33<andythenorth>who's making sugarcane railways?
09:33<andythenorth>someone should
09:33<Pikka>no they shouldn't
09:34<drac_boy>it already exists now andythenorth
09:34<andythenorth>are we doing pantomine?
09:34<andythenorth>where does it exist?
09:34<Pikka>well, when pineappling I appraised cane trains
09:34<Pikka>and decided, nope
09:34<drac_boy>HEQS ... although if you were looking for the specific wagons that look like oversized boxes on 2 axles loaded high up with sugar canes I don't think that exists yt
09:34<V453000>slug slime trail rails are absolutely necessary andythenorth
09:36<andythenorth>Pikka: because boring?
09:36<Pikka>yes. also they operate "within" an industry, rather than between them
09:37<andythenorth>hrm, not if you have FIRS :P
09:37<andythenorth>not arguing though
09:37<Pikka>true, I could have made cane farms and mills as seperate industries
09:38<Pikka>but since cane is a very localised product - unlike wheat in the default industries - and mills are only located in the centre of cane-growing areas, it made more sense to just make a mill surrounded by fields
09:38<Pikka>from a pineapple point of view
09:38<andythenorth>also slow
09:38<drac_boy>pikka I ran into the same thing with certain industries I was looking up too
09:40<Pikka>new file, tai_industry2.nfo D:
09:40<Pikka>from the ground up, andythenorth ;)
09:41<drac_boy>that reminds me, is there any limit to number of industry types or its only more or less limited by map sizes?
09:42<@Alberth>drac_boy: yes
09:42<drac_boy>bye flygon
09:42<drac_boy>alberth map size then?
09:42<Flygon>See ya, dracy~
09:42<Pikka>64, drac_boy
09:43<Pikka>I remember it being 37, goes to show how long it's been since I've done industries :)
09:43<drac_boy>even 37 sounds a bit like a lot especially if theres several of each one
09:43<@Alberth>static const IndustryType NUM_INDUSTRYTYPES = 64; ///< total number of industries, new and old
09:43<Pikka>how many are in FIRS? :)
09:44<Pikka>I know whatever mb and george's industry set was called got to 37 very quickly
09:45<drac_boy>I'm at 28 but have three marked to be deleted soon tho. not sure if there'll even be more
09:45<@Alberth>Pikka: I have 58 in my head, but I don't know how accurate that is
09:46<@Alberth>andy added and removed many industries :)
09:46<Pikka>as a small map player, less is more :)
09:46<Pikka>if you have 64 industry types, you're not going to get more than one of each on the map...
09:47<drac_boy>pikka heh I need to fit 256x256 by default anyway :P nothing stopping from a decent larger map too tho
09:47<@Alberth>FIRS is not designed for small maps, although having one of each type is fun to play one time :)
09:47<Pikka>my usual game settings are 256*, low towns, normal industries, so...
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09:48<@Alberth>that should work, small is smaller than 256**2
09:48<@Alberth>I once tried a 64**2 map with FIRS, that was crowded :)
09:49<@Alberth>I did most transport with trucks
09:49<andythenorth>^ has counts of industry and cargos
09:50<@Alberth>hmm, off by 9 :)
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09:50<Pikka>time to make spreadsheets D;
09:51<andythenorth>FIRS never had a spreadsheet :)
09:51<andythenorth>I had concept art instead :P
09:51<Pikka>spreadsheets are fun!
09:51<Pikka>they mean when I make things like those production curves, I don't need to know what I'm doing! I just plug in random numbers til it looks right :)
09:51*drac_boy has two large .gnumeric files thank you -_-
09:52<drac_boy>random.. :p
09:53<andythenorth>I could make a spreadsheet from FIRS :P
09:53<FLHerne>drac_boy: Why Gnumeric? I never had much success with that :P
09:54<andythenorth>BANDIT has a spreadsheet, and look what happened to that ;)
09:54<@Alberth>a Python ate it? :)
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09:57<andythenorth>certainly it never shipped ;)
09:58<Pikka>andythenorth, fertiliser plant, y/n?
09:59<drac_boy>FLHerne well its the only thing thats dated 'recent' otherwise it would have to be clarisworks which I doubt the forum would understand anyway
10:00<FLHerne>drac_boy: Ludicrously outdated OS?
10:01<FLHerne>Clarisworks hasn't even existed since about 2000, has it...?
10:01*FLHerne used to use it
10:02<drac_boy>FLHerne my actual point was, its only gnumeric for shared sheets ;)
10:04<andythenorth>Pikka: either invent a new way to increase production, or include fertiliser
10:04<drac_boy>at least non-sheet things are too easy to share when plain text is just plain text :P
10:04<andythenorth>the default ttd production mechanic is *so* tedious
10:04<Pikka>andythenorth, both :)
10:04<andythenorth>and leads to queues of maglevs
10:05<Pikka>plastic -> chemicals
10:06<Pikka>by which I mean I replace plastic in the set with chemicals
10:06<drac_boy>yeah CHEM is generic so its not bad .. plastic is a bit too specific
10:06<drac_boy>not to mention you could use CHEM to treat fruits ... to produce feed .. etc etc
10:07<drac_boy>although I think one of the industry vector used 'refined oil' too
10:07<Pikka>maybe I won't, then :)
10:07<drac_boy>why not? :P
10:07<Pikka>I dunno, you just have a way of putting me off the idea
10:08<drac_boy>heh what do you even use plastics for tho?
10:08<drac_boy>to make goods? that doesn't sound useful of oilwells
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10:11<Wolf01>hhello :)
10:11<drac_boy>hi Wolf01
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10:23<andythenorth>Pikka: chemicals > plastic
10:23<andythenorth>two legs > four legs
10:23<andythenorth>also there is vehicle set support :P
10:23<andythenorth>but chemicals have a nasty habit
10:23<andythenorth>of getting accepted all over the place
10:24<Pikka>yes, that's the problem :)
10:24<andythenorth>erp +1
10:24<Pikka>do food processing plants accept chemicals? :)
10:24<drac_boy>well at least I can let my train drop it off more or less anywhere its running rather than having to make a transfer and hope that something else will forward it :)
10:24<andythenorth>I liked the idea of fertiliser from nothing
10:24<Pikka>is soylent purple chemicals?
10:24<andythenorth>that seemed more pikka-ish
10:28<V453000>some vehicle sets support even plastic as secondary :P
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10:30<Pikka>what do I call the industry that processes grain? :)
10:30<Pikka>it may variously be a flour mill, brewery, bakery etc.
10:30<drac_boy>depends on what output it is
10:31<Pikka>perhaps it can just be "food processing plant" ala TTD
10:31<drac_boy>mm perhaps
10:31<drac_boy>andythenorth only if it accepts glass and outputs food :P
10:31<Pikka>it can be both or either, that's my point :P
10:32<Pikka>one industry
10:32<Pikka>accepts grain
10:32<Pikka>produces food
10:32<Pikka>may be a mill, brewery or bakery depending on whatever.
10:35<andythenorth>not if produces beer
10:35<andythenorth>do you get beer at your bakery? o_O
10:36*andythenorth suspects that's possible down there
10:37<andythenorth>I bailed and called it grain mill
10:37<andythenorth>which is no good if it's maize :P
10:37<drac_boy>about chemicals...
10:37<drac_boy>I never could decide if sand>glass or sand+chemical>glass .. what you think?
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10:38<andythenorth>depends on the rest of your economy
10:39<andythenorth>for gameplay, considering industries in isolation doesn't work
10:42<drac_boy>mm well there's the sand open pit which is only good for glassworks atm. and the chemical plant ... not too sure about it since beside the glasswork theres only one other industry that maybe can use it
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10:46<Pikka>grain mill works
10:47<Pikka>grain mill, type: brewery :)
10:47<Pikka>probably better than calling it a Food Processing Plant, that will confuse people
10:47<drac_boy>isn't it already called that in tropical default anyway?
10:48<Pikka>that's why it will confuse people
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>can you vary the industry name based on layout?
10:48<Pikka>the meatworks looks more like (ie, exactly like) the tropical FPP ;)
10:49<drac_boy>try the meat plant from railroad tycoon 2 then? the animal chute gives it away too :)
10:54<Pikka>a callback
10:54<Pikka>for newobjects
10:54<Pikka>which places them on the map during map generation?
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10:55*drac_boy is going for a little
10:55-!-drac_boy [] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!]
10:55<Pikka>a little what? I shudder to think.
11:05<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: can't vary industry name in minimap
11:05<andythenorth>and it's an action 0 prop every afaict
11:05<andythenorth>so no :)
11:06<andythenorth>Pikka: not a cb, a probability prop, action 0
11:06<andythenorth>two in fact
11:06<Pikka>is it?
11:06<andythenorth>probability during map gen, probability in game
11:06<andythenorth>not done afaik
11:06*andythenorth has read zero percent of newobject spec, so is guessing
11:06<Pikka>meh, callbacks are better
11:06<Pikka>callbacks are always better
11:06<andythenorth>some agree, some disagree :P
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>hijack the code that places transmitters/lighthouses
11:06<Pikka>what does "probability" mean?
11:07<andythenorth>when I propose one, I get yelled at by people who like the other :P
11:07<andythenorth>urgh, probability
11:07<Pikka>with a callback, I can have one per town
11:07<Pikka>or one per map
11:07<Pikka>or needle nardle noo
11:07<andythenorth>yeah I'm convinced
11:07<andythenorth>how does openttd know to try and build this object?
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11:09<Pikka>perhaps newobjects have a special "cargo" in action 3 for the map generation callback?
11:10<Pikka>that's for whoever's actually programming it to work out
11:10<Pikka>and that ain't me :)
11:13<Pikka> how's that?
11:20<Pikka>one per town, one per map, only build on mountains, only build near coastlines, only build etc etc :]
11:20<Pikka>although I don't think we have all the necessary variables yet ;)
11:23<andythenorth>I want a version that runs during game
11:23<andythenorth>it would look for industries :P
11:23<andythenorth>and plant overbuildable fields
11:23<Pikka>maybe it could run at the beginning of the month, or year, or whatever :]
11:23<andythenorth>monthly is enough
11:23<andythenorth>anyway biab
11:24<Pikka>you need to invent overbuildable newobjects, though :)
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11:29<bolli>Is there a special thing to enable gamescripts?
11:29<bolli>I'm trying to get the silicon valley from yesterdays nightlies game working, and I'm struggling
11:34<Zuu>bolli: Did you select it in the AI/Game Script settings dialog?
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11:45<andythenorth>stand by the jams
11:47<Pikka>who's a jams
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>(the second audio track is english, if you're interested what he's talking about)
11:48<bolli>Thanks Zuu, I had worked it out though :)
11:48<Zuu>bolli: Great
11:48<bolli>But I now cannot load a save game with it...
11:49<bolli>*on a dedicated server
11:49<Zuu>Do you have the GS installed on your dedicated server?
11:49<bolli>It says not, however I think I do...
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>bolli: transfer the stuff in content_download onto the server
11:49<bolli>I have Eddi
11:49<bolli>Thats whats confusing me...
11:50<Zuu>did you put it in content_download on the server?
11:50<bolli>aha, thats better
11:50<bolli>I hadn't restarted the server after uploading it :)
11:50<bolli>Sorry, 'bout bothering you :)
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>bolli: there are rescan commands for that stuff, usually
11:57<andythenorth>mine's a 99
11:57<andythenorth>Pikka: KLF grf?
11:58<Pikka>oh, them
11:58<andythenorth>features: last train to transcentral, ice cream van, the car from the video
11:58<andythenorth>and a station with Tammy Wynette
11:58<andythenorth>and a white room
11:58<andythenorth>climate: Mu Mu Land
11:59<andythenorth>there are enough foamer grfs, should be more lol
11:59<andythenorth>V453000 is leading the way :)
11:59<V453000>duh :)
11:59<V453000>nuts isnt a lol newgrf :p
11:59<V453000>only includes it
12:00<V453000>a bit
12:00<V453000>tiny little bit
12:00<andythenorth> orly :)
12:02<V453000>not like I am currently drawing a whole class of trains based on wtf
12:02<V453000>im totally not
12:02<V453000>why would I do that right
12:04<andythenorth>you should add a 'wtf wagon'
12:04<andythenorth>cargo randomises on build
12:04<V453000>so far all the stuff is made to work andy
12:04<Pikka>capacity randomises on loading
12:04<andythenorth>everything randomises
12:04<andythenorth>randomise the randomising
12:05<Pikka>see, I can give all these industry sub-types clever names
12:05<andythenorth>oh god
12:05*andythenorth steals ideas from Pikka for FIRS
12:05<andythenorth>but not that one :P
12:05<andythenorth>whatever it is
12:05<Pikka>but I can see how it would make it more confusing for players :)
12:06<Pikka>oil well technology
12:06<Pikka>"Low", "Medium", "High"
12:06<Pikka>vs "Lucky Strike", "Divined Drilling" and "Fracked Up" :)
12:07<V453000>btw andythenorth: stating shat the station rating mechanism is grim and mean made me laugh .D
12:08<andythenorth>people like you are my target audience ;)\
12:09<V453000>im not sure if 99% others would get the joke though
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12:18<V453000>hm we got a decync error :d
12:18<V453000>just one r :)
12:20<Pikka>haven't seen one of those for a while :)
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12:21<@planetmaker>Pikka, you only see them when you play in multiplayer :-)
12:22<@planetmaker>and happy new year everyone here :-)
12:22<Pikka>happy new 2nd of january, planetmaker
12:26<@planetmaker>desync means that for the same savegame, that the server has a different idea of how the game should progress than the client
12:26<@planetmaker>while they should agree on everything in all cases
12:26<V453000>yes I know that
12:26<@planetmaker>I know that you know ;-)
12:26<V453000>was just wondering if we communicate through multiple channels or not :D
12:27<V453000>aka if it was to me
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12:42<Pikka>andythenorth: are scrap yards silly?
12:43<Pikka>or are they a good idea (tm)?
12:43<FLHerne>Pikka: I don't think they are
12:43<bolli>Does content update actually work?
12:43*FLHerne is a player, but not an industry dev
12:43<FLHerne>bolli: Should do
12:44<FLHerne>As long as the grf dev remembered to change the version number :P
12:44<bolli>I've run content select all then content update, and It does nowt...
12:45<andythenorth>Pikka: you've got to have a use for them :P
12:45<andythenorth>in FIRS they are overly-important for metal production chain
12:45<andythenorth>it's a bit unbalanced
12:46<andythenorth>but then if everything was balanced, it might be kind of flat :P
12:46<andythenorth>you have to have some facets and edges :P
12:46<Rubidium>bolli: have you read the documentation?
12:46<FLHerne>bolli: What are you attempting to do?
12:46<Pikka>I've just realised how to prevent confusion in my industry set
12:46<Pikka>include a novel-length explanation in every industry window :)
12:46<Rubidium>only one cargo: "stuff"
12:47<FLHerne>bolli: 'Select upgrades' should select only grfs previously downloaded that now have newer versions
12:47<bolli>Thats what I'm trying to do
12:48<andythenorth>Pikka: +1, definitely a great idea
12:48<andythenorth>I did wonder about 'extended industry window'
12:48*Rubidium assumes FLHerne thinks of the GUI and bolli of the console
12:48<FLHerne>Quite possible
12:48<andythenorth>ideally you would have text per industry *instance* not per type
12:48<andythenorth>"this steel mill was founded in 1873 by Pikka Bird and other investors"
12:49<bolli>Yup, via console
12:49<andythenorth>"it first produced in 1874" etc etc
12:49<Pikka>"this factory hates you, go away"
12:49<andythenorth>or maybe we can infer that :P
12:49<andythenorth>all of it
12:50<andythenorth>Pikka: I suspect that some FIRS industries only exist as an excuse to include certain vehicle types in sets
12:50<andythenorth>scrap yard might be one of them :P
12:50<andythenorth>where are those scrap wagons anyway?
12:50<Pikka>they should be there
12:50<Pikka>are they not there?
12:50<Rubidium>bolli: type content help, read carefully and then tell us what you think you have done wrong ;)
12:50<andythenorth>they're probably there
12:50<Pikka>they'll only appear if scrap is defined, and tbh I don't think I ever really tested them
12:50<Pikka>I just assumed I did it right :)
12:51<bolli>Content Upgrade All? :p
12:51<andythenorth>probably a victim of the great 'cargo label change war' of 2011
12:51<andythenorth>scrap changed, due to community-sized brainwobbles
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12:52<andythenorth>and we got some new action 0 props out of that silliness :)
12:52<@planetmaker>hm... I just notice, andythenorth, that in FIRS 0.8.3 the flash lights of the machines parked in the machine shop are all active
12:52<Pikka>SCMT, seems to be right
12:52<@planetmaker>is a bit odd :-)
12:53<Pikka>scrap wagon is in the addon set and should appear 1978
12:54<andythenorth>planetmaker: you don't like it? :P
12:54<andythenorth>fair point, they're parked
12:54<andythenorth>want to paint them out and commit? :)
12:54*andythenorth is baby minding
12:54<andythenorth>or file a ticket
12:54<@planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, it's good. But for all vehicles on a parking lot... :-)
12:55<andythenorth>Pikka: it's there
12:55<andythenorth>I tested a bad save
12:56<andythenorth>planetmaker: I'm +1 to changing it
12:56<bolli>So I run "Content Update", then "Content Download" and I still get "Downloading 0 Files"
12:56<@planetmaker>content select all
12:57<andythenorth>all those real world liveries for UKRS 2 :o
12:57<@planetmaker>I'll make a low-priority ticket, andythenorth
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12:58<bolli>So I've run content select all and I still have UKRS 1.01
12:58<bolli>*content select all then content download
12:59<@planetmaker>and... you got which openttd version?
12:59-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
12:59<bolli>The latest nightly
12:59<@planetmaker>and you don't expect the newgrf to become updated on an existing map, no?
12:59<bolli>Nope, I'm looking in ~/.openttd/content_download/newgrf
13:00<@planetmaker>and you don't download to ./content_download/newgrf ?
13:01<Rubidium>looks like reading is difficult
13:03<bolli>Hmm, Its now working
13:03<bolli>Never mind....
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13:32<Pikka><andythenorth> all those real world liveries for UKRS 2 :o <- where? :o
13:33-!-bolli [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:36<andythenorth>somewhere in the grf :)
13:36<andythenorth>more than I would have bothered to draw anyway
13:37<Pikka>draw/code :)
13:37<Pikka>the real world liveries aren't "drawn"
13:37<Pikka>they use the same sprites as the CC vehicles
13:39<andythenorth>you have variants by date though :)
13:39<andythenorth>attention to detail :P
13:39<andythenorth>actually HEQS does that for bulldozers
13:39<andythenorth>then I got bored
13:40<andythenorth>people who know about Cat might appreciate the details :P
13:40<andythenorth>not cats like Scuddles :P
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24879 /trunk/src/lang (11 files in 2 dirs) (2013-01-01 18:45:55 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>bulgarian - 14 changes by pdedinski
13:46<@DorpsGek>simplified_chinese - 2 changes by xiangyigao
13:46<@DorpsGek>finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:46<@DorpsGek>greek - 43 changes by Evropi
13:46<@DorpsGek>hungarian - 2 changes by Brumi
13:46<@DorpsGek>icelandic - 201 changes by Stimrol
13:46<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 65 changes by Yoursnotmine
13:46<@DorpsGek>portuguese - 29 changes by fspinto
13:46<@DorpsGek>romanian - 54 changes by mariush
13:46<@DorpsGek>spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
13:46<@DorpsGek>tamil - 25 changes by aswn
13:46<Superuser>43, go me
13:47<Superuser>Must have been some 100 yesterday
13:57<Ammler>luckily my native language isn't there :-)
13:57<Superuser>which is? And why luckily?
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14:01<Ammler>swiss german, well it would be more as you to :-Ptranslate
14:03<Ammler>it does (yet) not support dialects
14:03<__ln__>switzerland is a bit like new zealand; has mountains and is located next to a country with kangaroos
14:07<Ammler>and we have a very good sea sailing team
14:10<Rubidium>yeah, nobody beat them on any of the seas surrounding Switzerland
14:14<Ammler>afaik they still also lead the americas cup and similar
14:14<Ammler>or at least did for some time :-P
14:20<andythenorth>don't test colour cycles with full animation turned off
14:24<andythenorth>Pikka: you have a genuine foamer in your thread
14:24<andythenorth>maybe a few of them even :P
14:24<Pikka>do I?
14:24<andythenorth>I think so
14:24<andythenorth>I had some too :P
14:24<andythenorth>you get livery backchat, I got more detail about sugarcane than I can usefully enjoy :P
14:25<Pikka>you just have to assess what level of response will cause them to shut up
14:26<Pikka>for some it's none, for some you actually have to reply or they'll keep spouting
14:26<V453000>I rather quickly figured forum threads arent too useful for me :D
14:29<andythenorth>I appreciate the effort someone puts in
14:29<andythenorth>I don't always appreciate what they say :P
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14:29<V453000>well yeah I dont want people put effort into something which is probably going to be useless for me
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15:07*Pikka farm idea
15:08<Superuser> <-- the translation is, literally, 'creation of non-moveables'
15:08<Superuser>what does 'Object generation' actually do? I've never gotten into this generation business in this depth
15:09<@planetmaker>distribute objects on the map. Which are un-movable light houses and transmitters
15:09<@planetmaker>(and also undestructible)
15:09<Superuser>also you really need to improve lighthouse placement, lol
15:10<Superuser>anyway I left it as it is, seems appropriate
15:12<@planetmaker>you as in "could also be you"?
15:13<@planetmaker>then please, go ahead :-)
15:16<V453000>do or else
15:17<Pikka>planetmaker: :]
15:19<andythenorth>Pikka: wot farm? o_O
15:19<Pikka>farms which produce mainly livestock accept grain
15:20<andythenorth>I wanted to do that
15:20<andythenorth>for reasons I forget
15:20<andythenorth>you should
15:20<Pikka>I shall
15:20<andythenorth>you should do all the good ideas that don't fit in my set :P
15:20<Pikka>example industry texts coming up
15:20<andythenorth>because not all things fit in one box :P
15:20<Pikka>trying to decide if I can bother colour coding the text
15:20<andythenorth>I wouldn't :P
15:20<andythenorth>unless I did
15:20<Pikka>it will be easier to read in-game thanks to the colour coding
15:24<andythenorth>I should stop building lego
15:24<andythenorth>and work on FIRS
15:25<Pikka>hallo peter
15:27<andythenorth>is roadtypes done yet? o_0
15:27<Pikka>good question!
15:28<andythenorth>we are here slaving over hot newgrfs, and all you are doing is providing us free server space, lol, and maybe some multistop docks :P
15:28<andythenorth>where's the gratitude I say
15:29<V453000>I just caused a desync and nml error with just one awesome newgrf feature so I am silent :D
15:30<andythenorth>have a cookie
15:31<Pikka>novel length indeed
15:31<andythenorth>did you go to far? o_O
15:32<Pikka>is it?
15:33<andythenorth>let's see
15:33<andythenorth>I'd recommend it for small maps
15:33<andythenorth>with only a few of each industry
15:33<andythenorth>less so on bigger
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15:34<andythenorth>maybe you should force the issue, to prevent player whining
15:34<andythenorth>limit the number of types per game :P
15:34<Pikka>part of the point of this is that the industries are self-regulating as far as production goes
15:34<Pikka>so, in theory, it should actually be /better/ for large fire-and-forget type maps than "random" production changes
15:35<andythenorth>what about the 5 year plans?
15:35<andythenorth>do I need to engage with that and go buy more double headed A4s or whatever?
15:35<Pikka>the industries only make decisions (only change production targets, modes, do upgrades) every 5 years
15:35<Superuser> a new bug has been reported!
15:35<Superuser>by me
15:36<andythenorth>5 years passes quickly...
15:36<andythenorth>especially with news messages off :P
15:36<Pikka>but if you do buy more double headed a4s
15:36<Pikka>and you max out the stockpiles, etc
15:37<Pikka>the industry will react by changing their future plan to increase production, if possible
15:37<andythenorth>so you have something here like contracts - i.e. production limits?
15:37<Pikka>at the end of each 5 years, the "future plans" becomes the "5-year plan"
15:37<Superuser>this sounds awfully Stalinist
15:37<andythenorth>so it's relatively stable in your communist utopia?
15:37<Pikka>during the 5 years, the "future plans" change to reflect what's happening to the industry
15:38<Pikka>I may change the wording of "5-year plan", actually
15:38<Pikka>because it makes it sound like what's planned for the future, instead of what's happening now
15:38<Pikka>hence your confusion :)
15:39<andythenorth>'current plan'
15:39<andythenorth>'current operating model'
15:39<andythenorth>'current lolplan'
15:41<andythenorth>well it all sounds good
15:41<andythenorth>proof of pudding is in eating etc
15:41<andythenorth>a lesson that will not be lost on drac_boy sometime ;)
15:43<drac_boy>what you mean andythenorth?
15:44<andythenorth>simply an innocent aside drac_boy :)
15:45<andythenorth>let's talk about it again when you ship
15:45*andythenorth is speaking as someone who has rebuilt several grfs several times after play-testing
15:48<andythenorth>you have to walk a mile in your own shoes first :)
15:48*andythenorth should get a FB page for all these little sayings
15:48<andythenorth>maybe motivational posters
15:49*andythenorth should probably go back to work and do useful things :P
15:49<andythenorth>holiday time is over
15:51*drac_boy would had just ignored it anyway
15:54<andythenorth>drac_boy: got a repo yet? Or at least backups?
15:54<andythenorth>too many projects died due to loss of files :P
15:55*drac_boy points to my usual macally hd drive :P
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16:00<andythenorth>Pikka: will your industry text fit in say 800x600 screen?
16:01<andythenorth>also do you completely shaft AI? Or can it work out what cargos are needed?
16:09<Pikka>I should think it shafts AI less than most
16:09<Pikka>and I have no idea about 800x600
16:14<andythenorth>figured out docks?
16:14<Pikka>nope. I don't think I'm going to have them
16:15<Pikka>feel like they might be a bit... hard to make interesting?
16:17<andythenorth>they only work for me where I need to cheat
16:17<andythenorth>in economies with limited no. of industries
16:20<andythenorth>but...Dan mocked up this
16:21<drac_boy>heh thats really nice for an Object dock :)
16:22<drac_boy>could use choices other than boxed goods crates sitting there tho
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16:29*andythenorth digresses
16:34<Pikka>HOQVS assemble
16:35<drac_boy>heh that looks rather similar colours to the original lego mixer truck ... aside to having one more axle
16:36<drac_boy> here
16:38<andythenorth>drac_boy: that lets me guess your age :o
16:38<@peter1138>yeah well
16:39<andythenorth>here's the one my kids have
16:39<@peter1138>lego's all wrong these days
16:39<andythenorth>nah, it's gone all right again, just biggerer
16:39<drac_boy>one thing I like is having one of these few canada-specific lego sets they had back then
16:39<drac_boy>especially the canada post van
16:40<Pikka>peter's one of those people who don't think it's right unless it's yellow.
16:40<Pikka>and cuboid :)
16:40<drac_boy>andythenorth the one thing I don't like is that weird not-so-gray gray they use
16:40<@peter1138>see, the mixer shouldn't be just one piece like that
16:40<drac_boy>at least as long as original supplies are still easy to find on used market I'm ok for now
16:41<@peter1138>damn it
16:41<@peter1138>where's my lego
16:41<andythenorth>also, the mixer is 2 parts :P
16:41<drac_boy>yeah that andythenorth I keep forgetting what it was called
16:41<andythenorth>and it has an internal helix
16:41<andythenorth>so you can actually get 'cement' tiles to spiral out
16:41<andythenorth>play value eh?
16:42<@peter1138>the play value of lego is building stuff
16:42<drac_boy>andythenorth initially the canons used for the pirate ships were able to shoot these 1x1 black cylinder pieces ... but apparently safety overuled and it became one solid non-firing casing instead
16:43<drac_boy>at least I actually have one used canon that can fire .. its a simple metal spring inside
16:43<andythenorth>I have firing ones upstairs
16:43<andythenorth>for definite
16:43<andythenorth>also socker ball firing things
16:43<drac_boy>mm you must had gotten the early ones :)
16:44<drac_boy>interesting enough there were some recent technic set that used firing "punch rods" .. guess some things seem to change
16:44<andythenorth>mine are from 2007 or so
16:45<drac_boy>I just don't like where lego is heading with their trains already but....meh
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16:45<andythenorth>also peter1138 :)
16:45<drac_boy>at least that tgv-looklike train set they released a while ago looks nice, classic rail axles too
16:46<drac_boy>actually looks like an 'updated' version of the original set a long time ago
16:46<drac_boy>one moment...
16:47<drac_boy> verus anyone?
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16:48<drac_boy>only thing thats a bit annoying as it would seem is you have to buy two of the latter if you want to have a cab at both ends .. one box doesn't have double of the special cab pieces needed
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16:51<drac_boy>then again lego does seem to be making a lot of half-trains lately
16:51<drac_boy>like how come that streamlined steam locomotive came with ONE LOUSY COACH???
16:55<andythenorth>it's a terrible world drac_boy
17:00<drac_boy>apparently a lot of the 9V and RC trains just never shared much counterpart to any kind of real examples
17:00<drac_boy>I wonder if the steam+coach set was based after anything real or as usual not
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17:02<drac_boy>what kind of train is this silly thing at all??
17:02<andythenorth>an ugly train
17:02<drac_boy>only thing it was good for was the yellow train baseplates
17:03<drac_boy>mind you at least the whole Santa Fe sectional trains was pretty good actually
17:04<drac_boy>could buy the locomotives .. and any number of coaches you wanted
17:05*andythenorth -> sleep
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17:42<MINM>oh, the shuttle express train!
17:42<MINM>my childhood friend had one of those
17:43<Zuu>Should a GS need to come with an OFF button?
17:45<@Terkhen>good night
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: what for?
17:46<Zuu>to disable cargo goals in neighbours are important.
17:46<drac_boy>bye Terkhen
17:47<Zuu>A forum user wanted to disable the cargo goals it set.
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18:06<drac_boy>geeze they need quite good rails, running at 145kph on cape gauge!
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18:28<FLHerne>Zuu: I would like to be able to adjust the size of the goals ingame :-)
18:28<Zuu>That is already possible
18:28<Zuu>Just that zero is not an option.
18:28<FLHerne>It is?
18:29<Zuu>Help menu -> AI/Game script debug -> Settings
18:29<FLHerne>Ah. Settings are under 'Debug'? :-)
18:29<FLHerne>It seems not to like CargoDist/Daylength much :P
18:30<FLHerne>Might need turning down quite a bit
18:30<Zuu>I saw now that it is not possible to make changes in the AI/Game Script settings dialog in a running game. That is a bit silly as AIs/GSs can enable/disable in-game changing of individual settings.
18:31<Zuu>So if the AI/GS author have enabled in-game changing of a parameter it is up to the AI/GS to not bail out if a user change it. :-)
18:32<FLHerne>Zuu: Well, I just changed some in the debug thing. That should work?
18:32<FLHerne>Also, is there a minimum meaningful value for the difficulty multiplier thing
18:34<Zuu>Yes, changing settings via the debug window should work.
18:35<Zuu>The minimum value is set to 1. Below that you get 0 as cargo limit which isn't allowed by the script currently. (I don't remember why)
18:36<FLHerne>Yep, that made a big difference
18:36<FLHerne> it supposed to recognise FIRS food as a cargo?
18:37<Zuu>if FIRS Food have a town effect, then yes
18:37<FLHerne>It requests Petrol, but I presume Goods would also be valid?
18:37<Zuu>basically, it work with town effects and not cargos.
18:38<FLHerne>Odd thing is, it doesn't seem to. Food had a town-effect last time I tried it, but it doesn't seem to count for the cargo requirement :-/
18:38<Zuu>These town effects are know for GSs:
18:39<FLHerne>I would assume that FIRS Food has a food town-effect, then :P
18:39<Zuu>Well, it basically harcode the usage of town effects based on climate.
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18:39<FLHerne>andythenorth seems to have wandered off, which is inconvenient :P
18:39<Zuu>So if you provide food in temperate, it will still not use TE_FOOD.
18:40<FLHerne>Does that make sense?
18:40*FLHerne tests NaI + FIRS in a stable version
18:40<Zuu>However, an extension could loop over all cargo types to detect which town effects that are available and use that as additonal imput to the current climate.
18:41<Zuu>That just needs to be implemented :-p
18:42<Zuu>hmm, I wonder if the dessert/snow issue ever got solved.
18:42<FLHerne>Point is, NaI doesn't seem to recognise FIRS food as a valid thing to deliver. That seems a bit odd :-(
18:43<Zuu>Which climate?
18:43<FLHerne>Temperate. I think I see your point now :P
18:44<Zuu>I can improve it with some work, but the current solution is hard coded to the climates.
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18:48<FLHerne>So I shouldn't expect it to work in Temperate, this is a known issue, and might be fixable in the future?
18:48*FLHerne doesn't know much about GS implementation :-/
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18:50<Zuu>If the FIRS Food have the TownEffect FOOD, then the GS could be re-structured to read the TownEffect of all available cargo types. Based on that it will get a list of the available town effects in the game. It could get into trouble if some town effects have no receiver in the game due to some NewGRF issue.
18:51<Zuu>Eg. what if there is a special cargo that provide a town effect that there is no industry set nor town set that provide a receiver for?
18:51<Zuu>Or what if there is a town effect that appears to be available for the GS but actually is not possible to produce.
18:52<FLHerne>I don't know, and I'm probably not the right person to ask :P
18:52<Zuu>Or what happens if the availability of cargos that provide some cargo effect is vastly different to the default cargos? (then the goals might need to change to account to availability of cargo .... which makes the whole thing more complex)
18:53<FLHerne>Zuu: Doesn't that happen with any NewGrf cargoes?
18:53<Zuu>That can happen also with the current NaI script
18:53<Zuu>Or with NoCarGoal.
18:54<Zuu>Last NoCarGoal however pick 1 primary, 1 secondary and 1 random cargo to provide some stability.
18:55<Zuu>But it doesn't attempt to detect engineering supplies or any other low quantity cargo.
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18:58<dot_>I have a game running and in any train depot, I can see cars but no engines. Why is this?
18:59<__ln__>the year is too early
18:59<FLHerne>dot_: Are any engines actually available for that railtype?
18:59<dot_>3000? is too early?
18:59<FLHerne>dot_: Or too late :P
18:59<dot_>no engines exist for that date?
18:59<FLHerne>Possibly no engines for that railtype are available after 2500 or whatever?
19:00<FLHerne>What railtype and trainset?
19:00<dot_>I wasn't aware you could switch railtypes
19:00<dot_>just using the normal black tracks
19:01<FLHerne>dot_: Are you using the default trains?
19:02<dot_>again, you can switch these things? Where?
19:02<FLHerne>dot_: NewGrf settings
19:02<FLHerne>You should really read the tutorial on the wiki ;-)
19:03<dot_>I just wanted to know why I can't have any engines, but I can have all the cars, planes and boats
19:03<FLHerne>Actually, that might not cover it ;-)
19:03<FLHerne>dot_: If you hold down the rail icon on the main toolbar
19:03<FLHerne>It should show a list of normal rail through to maglev
19:04<FLHerne>By 3000, you should have maglevs available, but I think normal rail vehicles expire before than
19:04<dot_>so...can I convert already lain track?
19:04<FLHerne>dot_: Yes, but you should send the trains to depot first
19:04<dot_>no trains exist lol
19:04<FLHerne>Alternatively, set engines not to expire date-wise
19:04<FLHerne>If no trains exist, just convert it :P
19:05<dot_>so I'm waiting for you to tell me how
19:05<FLHerne>Select maglev, then the thing with the semi-circular arrow on
19:05<FLHerne>dot_: :D
19:05<dot_>alrighty then
19:05<dot_>so, new tracks, old stuff doesn't work, got it
19:06<FLHerne>Then drag that across your existing network, and it'll charge you lots of money for the privilege :D
19:07<dot_>boats are much more profitable than trains, it seems. I got 2 mill pretty quick
19:08<FLHerne>dot_: Not always. Well set-up rail networks can be *very* profitable
19:08<FLHerne>Boats and planes can be more profitable for a given amount of effort, though
19:08<FLHerne>No signalling or network design makes them much easier to use :-)
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19:09<FLHerne>When you get bored of the default vehicles/cargos/hideous trees, try another game with some NewGRFs. The standard ones aren't great IMO :P
19:10<dot_>is it just me or do the supposed shift and ctrl functions not work in windows?
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19:10<FLHerne>dot_: I don't use Windows. Probably just you though, or people would be moaning on the forums
19:10<FLHerne>Unless it's Win8?
19:11<dot_>maybe it just doesn't like 64 bit? I know 64 bit windows messes up all kinds of crap that shouldn't even matter
19:11<FLHerne>dot_: Again, no-one else complains...
19:11<FLHerne>Does ctrl+X work?
19:12<FLHerne>That one's at least simple, should pop up a floating toolbar thing
19:12<dot_>yeah that works
19:12<dot_>but shift and ctrl for pricing and whatnot don't
19:12<FLHerne>What didn't?
19:13*dot_ shrugs
19:13<dot_>I just try to make enough money where I don't need to worry about whether I can afford it
19:13<FLHerne>So, drag track, release while holding shift doesn't give you a quote? :-/
19:14<FLHerne>Do you have some non-standard thing for creating keyboard shortcuts?
19:14<Zuu>Eg. do you run AutoHotKey?
19:15<FLHerne>dot_: Might sound insulting, but my guess is you're doing it wrong somehow :P
19:16<dot_>you're right about that, I didn't wipe vista when I got it, I started moving stuff over to the point I couldn't switch anymore :P
19:17<dot_>was supposed to come with a free 7 upgrade but it wouldn't let me. Turns out HP imaged copies aren't "legitimate"
19:18<FLHerne>dot_: Linux > Windows anyway :P
19:18<dot_>linux does not support my work software
19:18<dot_>the whole usb dongle thing on top of wine not supporting it kinda kills the deal
19:19<FLHerne>Ah well, that kind of thing can be a pain. What software?
19:20<dot_>I feel like the usb security is kinda pointless. If they can bypass the serial, they can bypass a dongle check
19:20<dot_>mastercam and solidworks
19:20<dot_>CAD software
19:21<FLHerne>Presumably LibreCAD is insufficiently featurised :-(
19:21*FLHerne is tired enough to be inventing words now
19:22<dot_>never heard of it. Can it generate models from pictures? Or come with a library of machine gcode settings and tools?
19:22<__ln__>dot_: ideally, the dongle would perform some actual data processing, so it couldn't be circumvented just by bypassing a 'dongle check'.
19:22<dot_>if so, would be nice to get off buggy mastercam
19:22<dot_>__ln__, you'd think so, but I've seen people with working pirated copies
19:23<dot_>somewhere in the program is still has to run checks to see what it's doing
19:23<FLHerne>dot_: No idea. I'm not a professional CAD-software user, so I don't even know exactly what the latter is :P
19:23<FLHerne>I only use it to design glorified tables to keep my model railway on...
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19:25<__ln__>obviously, everything can be bypassed with enough work.
19:25*drac_boy only has an old 2D CAD suite because of nothing else being either 1. less than a thousand dollars to buy or 2. works on linux
19:25<drac_boy>but mm I never use it too much so not too bothered by it for now
19:28<FLHerne>AAARGH! Who bought decaffeinated tea? WHAT POSSIBLE USE IS DECAFFEINATED TEA!?
19:28<drac_boy>at least theres always Dia for charts and flowcharts ... and works on both windows and linux
19:28<FLHerne>Ah well, better than nothing I suppose...
19:28<drac_boy>ms visio and any others can go to hell :)
19:28<FLHerne>And yes, Dia is great :-)
19:28<drac_boy>FLHerne I would had probably wanted that too.. I hate sugar or caffeinate :->
19:29<FLHerne>Calligra Flow is quite good for that, too
19:29<__ln__>Dia is nearly useless for anything bigger.
19:29<drac_boy>mind you flherne I doubt you'll want any of my drinks I have here :p
19:29<FLHerne>drac_boy: We must be opposites. Strong tea with three sugars, ideally :P
19:30<FLHerne>__ln__: Yeah, but it's good for little diagrams. Bigger stuff, LibreCAD if it's an object or Flow if it's a circuit
19:31<drac_boy>goat milk....ground water (a bit mild on the hardness scale last I recall) ... caffeinate-free wheat soft drink .... whole wheat beer with low sugar content .. and a few more in that list
19:31<FLHerne>As in, a diagram of a circuit rather than the physical manifestation of it :P
19:32<drac_boy>FLHerne the funny thing tho is I've been thinking about to later or tomorrow try draw the industry vectors into Dia just to see if the lines connecting things would be more helpful than a static spreadsheet listing
19:32<FLHerne>drac_boy: You must be crazy :P
19:32<drac_boy>crazy? nope..just healthy on a budget :)
19:33<drac_boy>the funny thing tho is the milk and beer are produced in south quebec yet sold in many major stores, quite 'local' food indeed :)
19:34<FLHerne>Water here is very hard - limestone under all the mud. Never got used to soft water :P
19:35<drac_boy>FLHerne not too sure if I would like that tho...
19:36<drac_boy>and mind you I almost got a bit of sick stomach after one good lunch on a short vacation...turns out the area uses softener on their city water system ... UGH .... thnakfully I was able to find some good natural spring bottles for the rest of the short stay
19:36<drac_boy>so yeah .. soft water forget it ... hardy water I'm not too sure .. hard water softened forget it!
19:37<drac_boy>FLHerne what do you think of fluriode?
19:38<FLHerne>I don't even care enough to know if we have it here :P
19:38<drac_boy>heh...I don't like it period
19:40<drac_boy>FLHerne I know its never true but I always liked these silly jokes about strong cup of coffee/tea...
19:41<drac_boy>sometimes too strong enough that the spoon you left in it to stir literally stuck to the whole thing as if its ice instead of liquid
19:42<FLHerne>drac_boy: Well, my self-stirring mug often gets jammed with accidentally-precipitated sugar :P
19:42<drac_boy>or to a moreorless true thing..drinking too much caffeine makes some people way too jumpy
19:42<FLHerne>re. fluoride - just don't try and enact Dr. Stangelove in real life :P
19:43<drac_boy>reminds me of a ZIT comic strip....
19:43<drac_boy>he told his friend to wait a second...he went to tap one of his girlfriend who went to literally shoot up to the ceiling .. end up hanging off the light fixture yelling at him to never do that again...he was walking away with his friend remarking "they should had never opened that starbuck next door"
19:44<drac_boy>talk about her being too hypersensitive :)
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19:47<drac_boy>mmm dia charts reminds me that I still need to find one of my email address so I could sign up to forum
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19:52<dot_>why is it that the bridges always go up? Why can't we just have flat bridges?
19:52<FLHerne>dot_: You can...
19:53<dot_>there are like wooden ones but they claim to limit speed to snail pace
19:53<FLHerne>Build a bridge with the first tile on a slope :P
19:53<FLHerne>Or both ends on slopes facing towards each other
19:53<dot_>ok, but why not flat normally?
19:54<dot_>can't run a boat through a river
19:54<FLHerne>Because then they wouldn't be high enough to go over whatever they went over?
19:54<drac_boy>dot_ actually you can
19:54<dot_>really? Hm..
19:54<drac_boy>just use the canal locks when it comes to connecting with the actual level 0 water from edge of map
19:54<drac_boy>the only thing you can't do is sending boats up a rapid (its always sloped tile) obviously
19:55<FLHerne>dot_: As drac_boy said, you need to build locks next to or on top of the rapids. Depending on shape of river, you might need a bit of canal to make it all fit
19:56<drac_boy>its too bad that theres no actual locks due to various limitations :P
19:57<dot_>I need to work on my signaling
19:57<FLHerne>dot_: The wiki tutorial has a few good articles on that
19:57<dot_>not good enough
19:57<dot_>I've read them but they don't give examples
19:57<drac_boy>dot_ got a screenshot of what you're trying to do then?
19:57<drac_boy>dot_ umm they do
19:58<dot_>I don't get exactly what they do
19:58<drac_boy>theres lot of cropped screenshots
19:58<FLHerne>Simplest way to do it: One track in each direction, path signals every few tiles, be careful with junctions
19:58<FLHerne>And yes, there were lots of screenshots last time I looked
19:58<drac_boy>FLHerne can I ask why you need path when theres nothing but only one single path all the times :P
19:59<dot_>a few screenshots but I want better descriptions. Yes I understand that a signal needs a green up the track this and tree that blah blah, but that doesn't tell me when I use them
19:59<FLHerne>Really, only the two (four counting the types that work identically) on the right you need to worry about
19:59<drac_boy>you trying to drive the dispatcher crazy? heh
19:59<FLHerne>drac_boy: Saves trouble when adding junctions and stuff. Personally I use block ones because they look nicer, but that adds complexity with no proper advantage
20:00<drac_boy>FLHerne heh I actually use standard all the times and keep wondering why openttd refuses to compare to ttdxp when it comes to more than simple Y split junctions >_<
20:00<FLHerne>The entry/exit/combo ones are largely redundant except for specific and unusual cases
20:00<drac_boy>but apparently the coders seem to have no interest in doing it
20:00<drac_boy>ah well
20:01<FLHerne>drac_boy: OTTD-style path signals are very good for most junctions :P
20:01<FLHerne>dot_: Screenshot threads *might* be helpful
20:02<drac_boy>FLHerne try tell the stupid path signal that the short emus are supposed to have piority over the infrequent lengthy goods train
20:02<drac_boy>basically the pbs signals are no better than standard signals -_-
20:02<dot_>I've seen a lot of screenshots but only a couple actually point out which signals they were using
20:02<FLHerne>Although those tend to be more complicated than necessary for aethetic reasons, of course
20:02<drac_boy>dot_ do you not have a game running now or any reason why you can't post a screenshot of what you're trying to do btw?
20:03<FLHerne>dot_: I'd just use monodirectional path signals for everything unless you have a specific need to use something else
20:03<dot_>I could but it wouldn't matter. No case do I understand which signals to use for any kind of design
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20:03<dot_>FLHerne, I want to learn how to not lay 5 times as much track as I need lol
20:04<drac_boy>dot_ care to try dispatch my trains then? heh. lot of single-track workings :)
20:04<drac_boy>heh heh
20:04<FLHerne>dot_: The wiki does actually have examples for most things...
20:04*FLHerne quickly puts together some things
20:04<dot_>FLHerne, I've seen examples but they're not as well documented for someone who knows nothing about trains
20:05<dot_>I know most of the players are enthusiasts but I'm a casual player trying to learn
20:06<FLHerne>dot_: Turn on 'show reserved tracks' under display options in the advanced settings, try and make sure you have trains going in only one direction on each (long) bit of track, and use only path signals :P
20:06<FLHerne>When you get used to that, find cases where you can use more complicated types of signal or trackplan
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20:08<drac_boy>flherne I'm not blaming you but one of the most stupidest thing I sometimes actually run into with openttd is when all 3 platforms at factory are occupied by goods trains alone .. no platform for the dropoff trains to use .. even waypoints doesn't help because it "ignores" the platform signal occupation anyway
20:09<drac_boy>at least most other time it seem to just about work
20:09<FLHerne>drac_boy: Which is why any sane network builder uses separate stations for that :P
20:09<drac_boy>FLHerne or have real signals ;)
20:09<drac_boy>in ttdxp I have it signalled that if the one goods track isn't free the trains actually wait at the entry signal even if its showing green. but eh :->
20:09<dot_>reserved tracks are on. Is there a way to make it show further down the line what it's doing?
20:11<dot_>also, if a town is refusing to let you build a station there, how do you make them let you?
20:11<drac_boy>improve town mayor's rating...usually either 1. better services or 2. plant more trees
20:11<FLHerne>dot_: Bribe them, or build them some trees, or give them a good transport service for a while
20:12<FLHerne>Ideally, just don't annyo them (by removing trees or roads or buildings) in the first place :P
20:12<drac_boy>FLHerne and build stations first then rails second .. especially in heavy treed areas :P
20:13<FLHerne>Very simple network using only monodirectional path signals :P
20:14<FLHerne>Actually, there's one important error in that
20:14*drac_boy thinks its wrong for my trains ;)
20:14<drac_boy>but then whatever heh
20:14<FLHerne>The first signals after the junction when leaving the station are quite close, so a train longer than two tiles would block the junction when stopped at them
20:15<FLHerne>That could potentially cause a jam, so don't do that :P
20:15<@peter1138>dot_, there is nothing going on further down the line, if there was, it'd be reserved
20:16<dot_>down the line as in which path it would take given the signals I've set up
20:16<dot_>it would help me learn WTF I'm doing wrong
20:17<@peter1138>nope, because until it gets there no choice has been made
20:18<dot_>it can't calculate which signals are green at a given instant and highlight the path until something else gets in the way?
20:19<FLHerne>Vehicles constantly redecide their path based on various factors. The reserved bit is as far as it'll get before it thinks about it again ;-)
20:19<dot_>even in pause mode, a "where are they going now?" thing would be nice
20:19<FLHerne>If you're trying to debug your network, you could upload a savegame or screenshot so we can see what's wrong?
20:19<dot_>I'm trying to learn
20:19<dot_>current game doesn't matter
20:20<FLHerne>dot_: By pointing out errors in the way you set up this network, you can avoid making the same errors in others :-)
20:20<drac_boy>FLHerne I pretty much asked just ignore it
20:20<dot_>if you want to see a messy design I can show you
20:20<dot_>but I know it's hideous
20:21<dot_>that's the overall build as I went crap
20:21<drac_boy>umm that looks like nothing to me?
20:22<dot_>you mean the image is blank or what?
20:22<drac_boy>where's some actual view? :)
20:22<dot_>can you zoom out further outside the minimap?
20:24<drac_boy>forget the minimap..take a screenshot somewhere in the actual screen view
20:24<dot_>well, this is the messiest part so far:
20:24<FLHerne>dot_: The shape of the network isn't bad, tbh
20:24<drac_boy>looks like you trying to send one train all over the place? 0_o I think I'll leave you to FLHerne
20:24<dot_>you saw the minimap, my goal now is to get the train running to all towns and resources
20:25<dot_>but I want to add more trains
20:25<FLHerne>The complete lack of signals in the second picture is quite worrying
20:25<drac_boy>FLHerne so is the lack of real forced service too? ;)
20:25<dot_>I want one train to do all the passengers and mail and one to get all the iron, etc.
20:25<dot_>that's why I need signals
20:27<@peter1138>basically, stick with path signals
20:28<@peter1138>then, only put a path signal where you feel it is safe for a train to stop. safe here means it won't block the path of other trains coming in a different direction.
20:28<dot_>I tried that but when I add one, they lock up waiting for a clear path when nothing is even there
20:28<@peter1138>you need more than 1
20:28<dot_>so I'm guessing I put too many, or in the wrong places
20:29<drac_boy>maybe because you didn't add a full path :P
20:29<drac_boy>nothing like eg having a red signal that is in front of track that connects back to itself anyway
20:29<drac_boy>other signals would had ignored that but what am I to say
20:32<FLHerne>I quickly drew up a pair of three-way junctions. They both do the same thing, but the big one won't have trains crossing in front of each other :P
20:32<FLHerne>Note that I'm British, so my trains drive on the left ;-)
20:33<+michi_cc>peter1138: Re re-randomization, I think you do sometimes need CB 1, see my post.
20:33<FLHerne>I'd just avoid having trains going in both directions on the same track until you've got used to how trains behave
20:34<@peter1138>michi_cc, it's not necessary but probably is simpler as otherwise you'd have to duplicate the RA2s
20:34<FLHerne>Where by 'track' I mean 'track', not 'pair of parallel tracks' ;-)
20:35<+michi_cc>peter1138: Hmm, yeah, duplicating all RA2 as a dummy into the default chain could work as well.
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20:36<@peter1138>michi_cc, for the usual use (with vehicles at least) just putting the RA2s in the normal sprite chain makes sense
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20:36<@peter1138>but yeah, kinda different with how stations work
20:36<@peter1138>i think my first point is more important there :)
20:37<dot_>so say I have a Y junction, where do I put the signals, at the 3 points?
20:38<dot_>or should there be one in the middle of the split?
20:38<FLHerne>dot_: Quite simply, I would avoid the kind of Y-junctions you have in your screenshot
20:38<+michi_cc>RandomActions where probably though up before widespread CB usage, and obviously such a usage is highly uncommon, otherwise somebody would have triggered that desync ages ago.
20:39<FLHerne>It would be very difficult or impossible to signal them in such a way that you could get a reasonable throughput of trains and yet not jam them
20:39<+michi_cc>dot_: Nowhere. Single-track Y junctions have no safe point. Just imagine two trains that each want to go to the track the other comes from, there simply isn't any place to wait on each other.
20:39<@peter1138>michi_cc, why would it desync?
20:40<@peter1138>the random data is only ever changed during a trigger, regardless of whether an RA2 is reached
20:40<dot_>what if I turned the Y design into a diamond shape? Would that be safe?
20:41<FLHerne>dot_: See the kind of things I posted :P
20:42<FLHerne>Predominantly single-track networks are a nightmare
20:42<+michi_cc>dot_: No, because it doesn't change the problem. What you need are either stations with more than one platform at each end or passing loops in each branch. There you have a safe place for trains to pass each other and can place signals.
20:42<drac_boy>FLHerne how come I have lots of them? :P
20:42<dot_>FLHerne, I saw it but it's too much
20:42<FLHerne>They can be done ( I have quite a few), but not like that :P
20:43<FLHerne>drac_boy: Single-track lines with passing loops is fine. Just building a network by drawing single tracks between everything doesn't work :P
20:43<dot_>I think I'll just screw around and crash some trains. I've accumulated 70 mill so meh
20:44<@peter1138>oh god, people are using random triggers to set vehicle properties, not just graphic variations... o_O
20:44<Pikka>I know I'm sure not, peter
20:45<@peter1138>and i know dbsetxl doesn't, but only cos that predates those other cbs ;)
20:45<drac_boy>what they need is a 'rebuilt specifications' cb ;)
20:45<Pikka>no it isn't
20:47<@peter1138>drac_boy, not really, iirc the spec doesn't really define when you can change specs
20:47<@peter1138>it wouldn't be a problem if we didn't cache the result. but then it would be horribly slow.
20:48<drac_boy>mm it could had been nice tho. still seem silly to introduce a locomotive only to use another id to reintroduce it again 20 years later in a repowered form
20:48<+michi_cc>dot_: A very basic network, with two trains that each want to go to the other stations:
20:49<drac_boy>good one michi_cc
20:49<drac_boy>looks like the early german highspeed trainset to me? :)
20:49<+michi_cc>dot_: There simply isn't any point on the network where one train can safely pass the other, which means you also don't have any safe point to put a signal at.
20:50<@peter1138>drac_boy, i never said you can't change the vehicle spec, that is, after all, precisely what CB 36, and the earlier separate ones, are designed for
20:50<Pikka>although, from a design and gameplay point of view, changing a vehicle's stats in any major way is a terrible idea
20:50<Pikka>I do it in av8 but that's because who cares about planes
20:51<@peter1138>and in ukrs2!
20:51<Pikka>no I don't
20:51<@peter1138>speed limit of wagons based on purchase date
20:51<Pikka>one wagon
20:51<@peter1138>or maybe that was in ukrs1
20:51<Pikka>and it was a bad idea
20:51<drac_boy>pikka actually it does make sense.. a 27 years old locomotive thats becoming <40% reliability verus a 0 year old locomotive with 89% reliability?
20:51<Pikka>in the recent updates I split it into two separate vehicles
20:52<@peter1138>reliability is not set like that anyway
20:52<@peter1138>Pikka, what about your dual-powered engines? )
20:52<drac_boy>peter1138 well it apparently is, especially when you can't buy the original one anymore for that matter
20:53<Pikka>I don't know what he's talking about either
20:53<dot_>lol I've got 2 trains running with minimal waiting on my crazy track
20:53<drac_boy>dot_ heh?
20:53<@peter1138>drac_boy, one day you'll have to read that newgrf spec, sorry.
20:53<FLHerne>dot_: At some point, you might well find they get stuck :P
20:53<drac_boy>peter1138 I don't need to reread it btw
20:54<drac_boy>FLHerne maybe :)
20:54<dot_>I think I just placed enough semaphores to make it happen
20:54<@peter1138>it's like you've seen bits but don't actually grasp what goes on
20:54<@peter1138>which, to be fair, is pretty normal :p
20:54<dot_>nope, stuck
20:54<drac_boy>peter1138 its not complicated to figure out that a locomotive thats past its age and yet can't be bought anymore really is lousy at breaking down a lot period ;)
20:54<@peter1138>tip, there's no newgrf property to set reliability as a figure
20:55<FLHerne>dot_: As everyone's told you, that network is all but unsignallable :P
20:55<drac_boy>FLHerne maybe he should invest in super-fast helicopters or even hoverboats..they don't need signals :)
20:55<+michi_cc>dot_: There are several ways to create some safe points, for example by giving one station two platforms, or by inserting a passing loop:
20:55<FLHerne>It's all single tracks, so there are no safe waiting points and hence no places to put signals
20:56<dot_>the idea is that usually they're sitting in the station at some point while the other passes
20:56<dot_>but I'm working on it
20:56<FLHerne>dot_: That isn't a reliable way to do it :P
20:57<dot_>I just wanted to see what semaphores would do with my current track
20:57<+michi_cc>dot_: The station has to use the two-way path signal, as trains must be able to pass it from the side without the lights as well. I could've used those also for the passing loop, but the one-way path signals is better here as it prevents unintentional "queue-jumping", where a train behind overtakes a train in front.
20:59<@peter1138>btw, michi_cc created our path signals, so he'll know ;D
21:00<+michi_cc>dot_: If you are absolutely sure a branch is only ever visited by a single train, putting a two-way path signal directly before the junction (with the lights away from the function) will work, but you must remember to upgrade that area if you ever want to send a second train down the same branch.
21:02<+michi_cc>Like Train 3 which I added in
21:03<+michi_cc>BTW, who's going creates/updates a wiki article with this stuff (nope, not me)?
21:03<FLHerne>michi_cc: There already is, right? :P
21:03<+michi_cc>I don't think it has such nice pictures ;)
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22:55<dot_>so let's say I have a giant loop of everything. All one direction. Which signal is best to make sure the trains don't hit eachother and where do I place them, behind the stations?
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23:34<dot_>I went with 1 way path signals. Now I'm getting so much loaded that they're backing up and want to use an inner track I built to speed the process along. How would you suggest I make them cross over at need? X shape with signals before crossings or what?
---Logclosed Wed Jan 02 00:00:38 2013