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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-01-03

---Logopened Thu Jan 03 00:00:42 2013
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01:01<__ln__>hello world
01:01<Supercheese>Think world is afk ;)
01:02<Supercheese>Idling as usual
01:02<__ln__>too bad
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01:41<Flygon>What year does 2CC get 320km/h TGV again?
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03:53<@peter1138>dunno if it works!
03:53<@peter1138>triggers happen but i've not seen any obvious things changing
03:54<@peter1138>not sure about the reseed of the station random bits either
03:54<@peter1138>spec is vague as usual :)
03:54<@peter1138>so anyone have a working test case?
03:54<Supercheese>Newstations was supposed to be, no?
03:57<@peter1138>newstats uses it, yes, but without knowing what's supposed to happen it's a bit hard to see
03:57<Supercheese>Conjecture: train arrives at station, passengers shift positions
03:57<Supercheese>Potential test: get a bunch of passengers at a station, then have a non-pax train arrive
03:58<Supercheese>see if the pax shift or not
03:58<@peter1138>they don't
03:58<Supercheese>(of course, this is just guesswork)
03:58<@peter1138>i don't know if they're meant to
03:58<@peter1138>hence... test-case
03:59<Supercheese>I can't read NFO, so I'm no help there
03:59<@peter1138>i can but newstats is MASSIVE
03:59<@peter1138>so i'm not going to
04:00<Supercheese>The comment says // re-randomise on train arrive
04:00<Supercheese>Hence why I conjectured earlier
04:00<@peter1138>which comment?
04:00<Supercheese>in the [code] there
04:00<Supercheese>2362 * 0 02 04 04 80 04 10 04 01 00 02 00 02 00 03 00
04:00<Supercheese>That is just a bunch of numbers to me, does it actually mean something :S
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04:18<Pokka>no, it doesn't mean anything, Supercheese
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04:57<@peter1138>Hmm, revert != refresh
04:57<@peter1138>I'm not feeling quite right :(
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05:18<NGC3982_2>Im trying to get my trains to autorenew
05:18<NGC3982_2>But they don't seem to want to.
05:19<V453000>dont autorenew, solved :D
05:19<@peter1138>is that engine type still available?
05:20<NGC3982_2>peter1138: Yes, all of them.
05:20<NGC3982_2>All two, that is.
05:20<Pinkbeast>What if you order one of the offending trains to a depot manually
05:21*NGC3982_2 tries.
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05:22<NGC3982_2>That worked.
05:22<Pinkbeast>Do you have any kind of servicing going on normally?
05:24<Pinkbeast>That article's clearly confused. "In 1830, train travel in the U.S. was almost twice as fast" (as in 1800) er no
05:26<NGC3982_2>Pinkbeast: i do think so, yes.
05:26<NGC3982_2>Does service override autorenewals? :)
05:26<Pinkbeast>I would try and observe a train going to a depot normally.
05:26<V453000>why would you, ever, service or autoreplace trains when you do not have breakdowns on?
05:27<Pinkbeast>V453: service - to deal with that part of the game without the annoyance of breakdowns (but train routing to depots is such a nightmare)
05:27<Pinkbeast>autoreplace: errr to avoid selling and buying sixty-eight engines?
05:28<V453000>he wants autorenew not autoreplace
05:28<V453000>and again, why would you service if you have breakdowns Off
05:28<Pinkbeast>NGC: No idea if it's true in OTTD now but I seem to recall an issue that with no servicing, trains never entered depots at all, even when there was something to do there.
05:29<Pinkbeast>autorenew: to deal with the costs of new engines?
05:29<Pinkbeast>To deal with the problems of routing trains to depots. Surely that is obvious?
05:30<V453000>how do you "deal with costs of new engines" by servicing or autorenewing? :D
05:30<NGC3982_2>Wait, yes
05:30<NGC3982_2>I turned breakdowns off
05:30<NGC3982_2>But not autorenew.
05:30<V453000>and you dont need to route trains to depots if you dont need to service them so I dont see how servicing "solves routing to depots"
05:30<NGC3982_2>Pinkbeast: Ok.
05:31<@peter1138>autorenew: so that you get new engines so that station ratings are higher
05:32<V453000>yes, but that applies for like 3 months
05:32<@peter1138>3 years
05:32<@peter1138>or somesuch
05:33<V453000>oh, 2
05:33<V453000>ok I thought that is less
05:33<V453000>still... :)
05:33<@peter1138>Pinkbeast, "That article's clearly confused." they talk about the time taken to travel a distance, not the actual speed of the trains.
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05:45<@Terkhen>good morning
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>someone remind me again why the strgen on the website is not up-to-date?
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05:49<NGC3982_2>Thanks for the help.
05:49<NGC3982_2>Seriosly, the mIRC default font is unreadable.
05:49<NGC3982_2>I had to scroll back like six times.
06:01<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, compile farm (issues) somehow
06:01<@planetmaker>good morning everyone
06:12<@peter1138>anyway, ISR also uses station triggers, maybe that's easier to testcase
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06:36<Pinkbeast>peter1138: Doesn't matter. There were no commercial railway services in 1800.
06:36<@Terkhen>good morning planetmaker and frosch123
06:36<@peter1138>Pinkbeast, that's not what it said
06:37<Pinkbeast>You think it says "in 1800, horses; in 1830, trains - twice as fast"?
06:37<@peter1138>i think it says that travel was twice as fast in 1830 than in 1800, thanks to trains
06:37<Pinkbeast>That is also wrong.
06:38<Pinkbeast>The Liverpool and Manchester only opens in 1830, let alone the USA.
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06:38<Pinkbeast>If (as the article says) in 1830 "rather than taking two weeks, going to Georgia or Ohio from New York City took one week" that has nothing to do with the steam locomotive.
06:39<@Terkhen>hi drac_boy
06:39<NGC3982_2>I can't seem to find the site with all the older versions of OpenTTD
06:39<@peter1138>Pinkbeast, ok
06:40*NGC3982_2 can't even google it for some reason
06:40<NGC3982_2>Oh wait, there it is.
06:41<Pinkbeast>The B&O starts pax service in the US in 1830 also.
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>so if the train line opens in 1830, why can't it have an effect in 1830?
06:43<drac_boy>hi terkhen
06:45<NGC3982_2>That color palette.
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06:50<Pinkbeast>Eddi: because that first stretch is perhaps 15 miles long? It would be tricky for that to chop a week off a 2 week journey.
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07:03<Eddi|zuHause>but even 15 miles could reduce a 1 day travel to a 1 hour travel
07:04<Pinkbeast>But that is not the assertion in the linked article.
07:05<Pinkbeast>... also, you'd have to be going on quite a specific journey. It would hardly be meaningful to say that travel "in the US" was faster because of one 15-mile railway line.
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07:36<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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07:42<drac_boy>hi Wolf01
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07:54<drac_boy>hi snail the french artist? heh heh :)
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08:18<Snail>good morning :)
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08:22<drac_boy>how're you snail?
08:22<Snail>I'm ok thanks
08:22<Snail>and you?
08:23<drac_boy>doing ok
08:24<drac_boy>how's the progress on the french NG grf?
08:25<+michi_cc>peter1138: Are you sure about the second hunk in that diff?
08:26<@peter1138>michi_cc, no, typo from an earlier test ;P
08:26<@peter1138>removed in *2.diff (no other change)
08:27<@peter1138>i originally was going to merge them into one call, but then i realised the triggers are different, the tile can be different too
08:27<@peter1138>although not sure that it should be actually
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08:30<Snail>going forward, thanks :)
08:30<@peter1138>st->xy for SAT_TRAIN_LOADS feels wrong
08:30<@peter1138>as it's per platform
08:31<Snail>I just have to make decisions w.r.t. train sizes, i.e. there will probably be a few NG DMUs that are as tall as SG rolling stock
08:31<Snail>that's because some modern NG multiple units were pretty large for their gauge
08:31<@peter1138>(and will crash if st->xy doesn't point to a rail station tile)
08:35<@peter1138>michi_cc, also cargo translation table isn't taken into account
08:36<@peter1138>(nobody moves pax so it's good enough for testing)
08:36<@peter1138>i was thinking we could map statspec->cargo_triggers on load
08:39<+michi_cc>Who updated for GRFv8? The first sentence misses station properties :)
08:40<+michi_cc>Anyway, the old version of that page declared cargo IDs of type A as index into the cargo translation table, so not mapping station prop 12 would be against specs.
08:41<Snail>gtg bye
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08:53<@peter1138>gotta love reading assembly language
08:53<frosch123>michi_cc: it also misses houses :p
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08:55<frosch123>peter1138: mapping it on load should be fine, that is also done for the refit mask
08:59<@peter1138>okay, just modified the diff to make *3.diff
08:59<@peter1138>might work with newstats, dunno though
09:00<@peter1138>wrong trigger values
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09:09<drac_boy>if its ok for me to ask again...can an industry finish one cargo input first before starting using the other one? (assuming stockpiles are used)
09:10<frosch123>there is no need for any correlation between input and output
09:11<drac_boy>thanks, was just wondering about an industry that shouldn't be processing two cargos at same time realistically
09:11<drac_boy>but mm
09:12<@peter1138>don't use the r word
09:16<@Belugas>hello, by the way
09:16<__ln__>see, that's what happens when you use the r word
09:16<V453000>hi :)
09:17<@planetmaker>bonne ann´ee, Belugas
09:17<@Belugas>a toi aussi, planetmaker. Que tes voeux pour 2013 puissent tous se réaliser
09:17<drac_boy>frosch123 if theres one thing I like about newgrf industries for sure is that its that the output doesn't suddenly appear only one tick after the input :)
09:18<@Belugas>or something like that
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09:19<fonsinchen>sorry, wrong window
09:20<__ln__>but i don't want to quit
09:21<fonsinchen>gdb wanted to quit as it couldn't tell me what I've broken ...
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09:39*Flygon stuffs a cigarette into __ln__'s mouth
09:42<drac_boy>how're you flygon?
09:42<Flygon>Decent nuff
09:43<drac_boy>doing ok for now
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09:52*drac_boy pokes flygon to over there? >>>
09:53<@peter1138>Flygon, why are you still up?
09:53<Flygon>Summer Holidays
09:58<Flygon>Winter's gonna kill
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10:51<NGC3982_2>what am i doing here.
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10:53*drac_boy wonders what NGC3982 was thinking? :P
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12:01<Pinkbeast>Er, quite.
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12:05<Eddi|zuHause>your smilies are broken...
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12:15<@peter1138>oh, patch crashes now :p
12:15<@peter1138>on the intro game
12:15<@peter1138>which shouldn't have any cargo triggers... YEAH
12:16<@peter1138>oh, i missed a check :-)
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>"the Patch" or "your patch"?
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12:32<jonty-comp>peter1138 has defected to ttdpatch to restart development
12:32<jonty-comp>it's the logical thing to do
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12:35<@peter1138>yes of course
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>it's a neo/smith thing... without one, there can't be the other
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>so openttd is dying because ttdpatch is dying :)
12:37<jonty-comp>does that mean we should throw them at each other and make them merge
12:47<@peter1138>" trigger 02 will only be triggered if all of those cargo types have no more cargo waiting"
12:47<@peter1138>that's gonna be a pain to actually implement
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>but it's logical :)
12:55<@peter1138>yeah right
12:55<@peter1138>not when you can have stations made up of multile parts
12:56<@peter1138>some bits will be triggered and others won't
12:56<Rubidium>so, just not trigger it when transfering or force unloading (i.e. whenever you put stuff on the platform)
12:56<@peter1138>but the station itself will
12:56<Prof_Frink>Multiple pants!
12:56<Rubidium>in all other cases no more cargo is waiting on the platform
12:57<Rubidium>only less or an equal amount
12:57<@peter1138>Rubidium, eh?
12:57<@peter1138>"no more cargo" == none
12:58<Rubidium>that's the usual definition ;)
13:02<@peter1138>mind you station random bits are utterly useless when it comes to multiple parts anyway
13:02<@peter1138>16 bits! but you've got no idea when something else might change them
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13:05<frosch123>yeah, the 16 shared bits are not to be rerandomised :)
13:05<@peter1138>something else the spec doesn't say :)
13:05<burtybob>Wondering if anyone had any links to a NML tutorial for the industry side. The main tutorial on covers trams, roadvehicles and trains but I'm interested in the industry side, adding text to industry window etc
13:06<frosch123>check ogfx+industries
13:06<frosch123>no tutorial, but source
13:06<burtybob>Will do, thanks :)
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13:07<frosch123>hehe, that guy was lucky this time :p
13:07<frosch123>(last night he left before someone could answer)
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13:18<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r24883 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2013-01-03 18:18:32 UTC)
13:18<@DorpsGek>-Fix: a completely emptied vehicle could trigger an assert
13:34<@peter1138>right, well there's no point testing with newstats
13:35<@peter1138>anyone know which ISR station uses triggers?
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13:42<@peter1138>how i pick old newgrf versions hidden from the list?
13:43<Zuu>In the bananas web UI?
13:43<@peter1138>no, in game
13:44<frosch123>you need the md5sum
13:44<Zuu>By having a savegame that refer to them with correct md5sum.
13:44<frosch123>bananas does not give you a list of stuff, you can only kindly ask it about a md5
13:45<@peter1138>i'm not talking about bananas
13:45<frosch123>gui.show_old_newgrf or something like that
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24884 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2013-01-03 18:45:33 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>greek - 35 changes by Evropi
13:45<@peter1138>cool, thanks
13:45<@DorpsGek>icelandic - 45 changes by Stimrol
13:45<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 8 changes by fanioz
13:45<@DorpsGek>latvian - 17 changes by Parastais
13:45<@DorpsGek>portuguese - 6 changes by fspinto, neuralshock
13:45<@DorpsGek>slovak - 7 changes by Romop5
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13:46<@peter1138>current newstats always tests for a CB before hitting a RA2
13:47<frosch123>you mean newstats never worked in ttdp as well?
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>that's the usual pattern...
13:47<burtybob>I think I just totally fail at this. I've got the src and lang from coop for ogfx but when trying to run it through nmlc it errors on things like "#define" and "#include". Did I miss something stupidly basic?
13:47<@peter1138>don't think so
13:47<frosch123>burtybob: it does not only use nml, but also Makefiles and the c preprocessor
13:48<frosch123>the files are "pnml", not "nml"
13:48<burtybob>I see that... How do I use makefiles on Windows?
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>burtybob: install mingw, and then type "make"
13:48<@peter1138>frosch123, if it works in ttdpatch, then... well...
13:48<@planetmaker>installl mingew... ^
13:49<frosch123>i think there is some explanation somewhere on the devzone wiki
13:49<frosch123> <- maybe that, not sure
13:49<frosch123>maybe it is the one with the virtual machine though :p
13:50<frosch123>oh yeah, it says so in the summary
13:50<Zuu>Or install VirtualBox + Linux :-)
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>just setup mingw to compile openttd, then you have everything you need :)
13:51<frosch123> <- or fetch the preprocessed output from the farm
13:51<frosch123>if you only want to read it
13:52<frosch123>though i doubt it is easy to read :p
13:52<burtybob>Actually that is quite easy to read lol
13:54-!-jo2k [~Jonny@2001:4dd0:ff00:8cef:8dec:9488:b607:d104] has joined #openttd
13:55<@peter1138>hey cool
13:55<@peter1138>done nothing with my mobile phone all day
13:55<@peter1138>so now it's covered in scratches
13:56<frosch123>done give phones to cats
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>it's depressed because nobody wants to play with it
13:56<@peter1138>no, i think this uses a form of glass known as cheese-glass
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>so it cuts itself to get atttention
13:56<@peter1138>slightly things will scratch or mark it
13:57<@peter1138>(it's a samsung galaxy nexus, supposed to be decent apart from the camera)
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14:14<@planetmaker>hi Alberth
14:15<@Alberth>hi, had good holidays?
14:15<@Alberth>(or still having it?)
14:17<@planetmaker>yup. and yup :-)
14:17<@planetmaker>and so I hope you had (and have?), too :-)
14:18<@Alberth>had only, unfortunately
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14:20<@Alberth>and with my collegue back from a month vacation, I now have a lot of stuff that he looked at, and needs some more work
14:20<wojteks86>hi all
14:21<wojteks86>hope everyone is ok
14:21<wojteks86>I just popped in to ask a question (again)
14:22<@Alberth>wojteks86: hi, and at IRC you can just burst in, no need to first announce you have a question :)
14:23<wojteks86>could you guys please point me to the right file where it is explicitly said that bridges can be built with a drag'n'drop?
14:23<wojteks86>ok :
14:23<@Alberth>it's probably several files
14:24<@planetmaker>or maybe wormhole*.*
14:24<wojteks86>yes, I looked in bridge.h and bridge cmd cpp
14:24<@planetmaker>or tunnel_bridge
14:24<@planetmaker>something like that :-)
14:24<@Alberth>bridge_gui.cpp is the starting point, as you switch mouse mode when you open the window
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14:25<wojteks86>hmm I will have to search more carefully
14:25<wojteks86>you guys on here 24/7? :D
14:25<@planetmaker>it might be easier to help you, if you state what you want to achieve ;-)
14:26<@Alberth>*_cmd files do the actual action, eg actual building of a bridge/road/etc
14:26<wojteks86>I see
14:26<@Alberth>wojteks86: some are
14:26<wojteks86>the point is to enable building a tunnel with drag n drop
14:26<wojteks86>I wanted to compare those two
14:27<@Alberth>but tunnels are not drag/drop
14:27<@planetmaker>with tunnels you cannot do that. They need to come out at the same height without valley in between
14:28<wojteks86>it may be a good challange for the beginning, or at least I might learn something
14:28<@planetmaker>you know our todo list?
14:29<frosch123>wojteks86: i guess you need to look at rail_gui.cpp and road_gui.cpp then
14:29<wojteks86>yes, I did have a look
14:29<frosch123>they have to construction toolbars
14:29<frosch123>with the stuff that happens when clicking the buttons
14:29<frosch123>bridge_gui is the selection dialog after dragging
14:29<@Alberth>good point
14:30<wojteks86>I will check those two as well, thanks
14:31<wojteks86>and also will bear in mind ottd to do list
14:32<wojteks86>could be that cmd in rail gui cpp: VpStartPlaceSizing
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14:40<@Alberth>sounds like a good place
14:40<@Alberth>(Viewport) start place or resizing
14:41<wojteks86>yes, it only applies to bridge, not tunnel building
14:41<@Alberth>where viewport is an area where the world is displayed :p
14:41<wojteks86>thanks, I already figured that out from the code :D
14:41<@Alberth>tunnels find the other end by themselves
14:42<@Alberth>basically because there is no choice with tunnels
14:42<wojteks86>do you think it would be useful to be able to build tunnels by drag and drop?
14:43<wojteks86>of course it would automatically lower the land at the release point
14:43<wojteks86>otherwise it wouldnt make sense :D
14:47<@Alberth>No idea tbh, I always build tunnels such that I don't need that feature :D
14:47<wojteks86>yes, you are used to it as is
14:47<@Alberth>it could be useful for short distances
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14:48<wojteks86>oh yes, only short tunnels make sense with drag drop functionality
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14:48<@Alberth>hi andy
14:49<@Alberth>I don't do many tunnels, and if I do them, they are usually through larger mountains
14:50<@Alberth>that is, I never build these complicated junctions you see at the wiki
14:50<dihedral>hello Alberth
14:50<frosch123>wojteks86: actually i thought you would add sloped entries
14:50<@Alberth>hello dihedral, happy new year
14:50<frosch123>not terrafoming :)
14:51<wojteks86>right, it looks like it depends on the playing style, but check this:
14:51<@Alberth>wojteks86: almost everything depends on playing style
14:52<andythenorth>the 'ship is lost' behaviour is just plain annoying :P
14:52<wojteks86>if you start placing a tunnel on a flat land - it terraforms, if you start placing it on a half tile slope - it will add the proper slope
14:52<andythenorth>I was going to report it as a bug, and I've been around long enough that I should be able to work it out :P
14:52<dihedral>happy new year to you too sir :-)
14:52<Supercheese>Yeah, 1-wide canals with ship reversing should not trigger the ship lost message
14:53<@Alberth>it should never enter that dead end :p
14:53<andythenorth>routing ships on canals is a crap shoot
14:53<andythenorth>it's pure guess work
14:54<andythenorth>you have to build, watch, build some more
14:54<andythenorth>it's not like building trains, where the mistake in route-building is obvious
14:54<Supercheese>Well, I stare at the ship, it goes to dock, (un)loads, and turns around just fine
14:55<Supercheese>why must it bother me with a 'lost' message? :S
14:55<andythenorth>they also fail to go to depot correctly
14:55<andythenorth>I wonder if the solution is to use NPF
14:55<frosch123>Supercheese: i told you: it is a punishment for bad gameplay
14:55<wojteks86>does it have enough free space before entering the locks?
14:55<andythenorth>frosch123: 'bad' :P
14:56<frosch123>andythenorth: 'bad' is what i call 'bad'. objections? :p
14:56<andythenorth>it's basically this
14:56<Supercheese>Objection: your bad ≠someone else's bad
14:56<Supercheese>...but I don't write the code :P
14:56<andythenorth>you could o_O
14:59<V453000>andythenorth: that stuff is ill
15:00<V453000>and people tell ME that I have weird ideas
15:00<andythenorth>it was fun
15:01<andythenorth>long time since we made that :P
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15:03<@peter1138>right why doesn't my coffeemaker work?
15:03<@peter1138>it sort of does
15:04<@peter1138>but ends up with only about 50% of the water in the jug
15:04<__ln__>it knows you're supposed to drink tea
15:04<@peter1138>and the rest... somewhere?
15:04<Supercheese>Disassociated into hydrogen and oxygen gas?
15:04<Pinkbeast>It's probably clogged up. Try running it with a 50/50 mix of white vinegar and water (and no coffee obviously) then flush it with water. If it's scaled up, that may improve matters.
15:05<Pinkbeast>It will also make your kitchen smell damned odd.
15:08-!-Superuser [] has joined #openttd
15:09<@Alberth>hello Greek god
15:10-!-burtybob [] has joined #openttd
15:11<burtybob>"accept_cargo_types: [cargotype("PASS")];" That should mean that stations that cover the industry should accept passengers or do I need to do it per industry tile?
15:11<@peter1138>how does nml handle randomaction2s ?
15:11<frosch123>burtybob: industries have per-tile acceptance, and per-industry acceptance
15:12<frosch123>the former must be a superset of a the latter
15:12<frosch123>i.e. at least one tile must accept the cargo, so the industry can receive it
15:12<frosch123>however, tiles may accept cargos even without the industry receiving them
15:12<frosch123>most noticable example for this is the oilrig
15:12<frosch123>it accept passengers
15:13<frosch123>but it does not process them into oil and passenges
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15:14<@planetmaker>peter1138, yes, there's random_switch in NML
15:14<frosch123>nml does not support stations though :)
15:15<andythenorth>peter1138: nespresso
15:15<andythenorth>expensive and all that
15:15<andythenorth>but meh
15:16<andythenorth>@seen pokka
15:16<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pokka was last seen in #openttd 10 hours, 57 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <Pokka> no, it doesn't mean anything, Supercheese
15:16<andythenorth>oh he was here :P
15:16*andythenorth was workink
15:18<andythenorth>980k downloads of my grfs
15:18<andythenorth>gets closer
15:18<andythenorth>I should do a minor bug fix :P
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15:19<Superuser>no way jose
15:20<drac_boy>is there a tiles size limit to industries? I know the wiki said 15x15 for Objects yeah
15:21<andythenorth>I haven't found one
15:21<andythenorth>there is a limit due to the size of offset from north tile
15:22<andythenorth>might be a byte
15:22<drac_boy>so I guess anything from 1x1 to maybe 7x7 would probably seem ok to start with?
15:22<andythenorth>FIRS has bigger
15:22<andythenorth>so yes
15:23<andythenorth>you should just branch FIRS ;)
15:24<andythenorth>branch / fork /s
15:24<drac_boy>no thanks :P
15:25<@Alberth>andy: just release the same software with a new version number :)
15:25<andythenorth>ho ho
15:26<drac_boy>andythenorth beside it would had needed a lot of rewrite and some new graphics that it would had seem easier to not port it tbh :)
15:26<andythenorth>writing industry set code from scratch
15:26<andythenorth>you may be here some time :)
15:27<frosch123>drac_boy: weren't you working on a train set?
15:27<andythenorth>first FIRS commit is March 2009, and we have had (mostly me), but at other times up to 4 devs working on it simultaneously
15:27<andythenorth>and it still isn't done :P
15:28<drac_boy>frosch123 the focus is the trains yeah but theres other extras to it
15:28<Supercheese>Augh, mouse ran past my chair. I need a cat...
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15:28<drac_boy>andythenorth not really...I actually had a bit fun coding a rather dumb simple 1x1 blacksmither building to add to default industries .. of course theres no extra features (no animation, no stockpile, etc) but naturally
15:29<drac_boy>don't have it anymore tho. had just wanted to see how far I could understand the basic industry nfo
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15:32<drac_boy>andythenorth exactly how many industries and cargos did you have again? and you using any extra industry features?
15:32<Superuser> <-- hey guys, I have an idea, what do you think?
15:34<drac_boy>Superuser hmm if they can get around different os having different ways to call up the default browser I don't see why that couldn't work
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15:35<Superuser>there are several applications I use that can do this in a cross-platform manner so it shouldn't be too hard
15:35<frosch123>Superuser: you know the button at the bottom of the window?
15:35<Superuser>in fact, I'm using one right now! (HexChat)
15:35<frosch123>"go to website"?
15:36<Superuser>never noticed it o_O
15:36<Superuser>well that received a fast closue
15:36<Superuser>or wait
15:36<Superuser>maybe, I won't close it
15:36<Superuser>There Are Always 2 Ways To Do Things
15:37<Superuser>sorry for seriously breaching IRC etiquette up there b y the way
15:37<andythenorth>drac_boy: 32 cargos, 50 industries in FIRS
15:38<drac_boy>I'm not too surprised..thats a bit heavy :)
15:38<@planetmaker>I guess I'll close the issue for you, Superuser
15:38<drac_boy>heh reminds me of marty saying "this is heavy doc!"
15:39<Superuser>NOOO WAIT
15:39<frosch123>Superuser: ottd's text engine does not support clicking into text
15:39<Superuser>that feel man
15:40<Superuser>that feel when no gf
15:40<frosch123>drawing bidirectioanl text is hard enough, interacting with it even more
15:41<Superuser>okay, please close the issue planetmaker (or 'project manager')
15:42<drac_boy>mm last I checked theres 22 cargos (one is PASS so meh to that heh) and 26 industries planned (+2 undecided)
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15:42<@peter1138>got a chart?
15:43<drac_boy>yeah I meant to put it into Dia after I cleaned it up
15:43<drac_boy>but thats not for a while now
15:49<drac_boy>of course I'll post the entire table+chart somewhere online (or ttforum website if I can get one too) when its not full of holes :)
15:57<wojteks86>bye for now!
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16:02<andythenorth>new CHIPS bug :P
16:02<andythenorth>stations are brain-boggling :P
16:02<@peter1138>surely not!
16:03<@peter1138>are you using random triggers?
16:03<andythenorth>the fix unfixed maglev
16:03<andythenorth>probably using random triggers
16:03<andythenorth>I could read the code
16:03<@peter1138>who uses maglev?
16:03<andythenorth>I didn't write the nfo on this one :P
16:04<andythenorth>and I don't use maglev :P
16:05*drac_boy prefers something that runs on rails or concrete beams :)
16:09<Rubidium>have fun with ruby
16:14<drac_boy>mm one more thing re industry tiles before I forget about it...
16:14<drac_boy>are canals and ocean tiles the same thing or can you check whether its specifically either?
16:16<@peter1138>andythenorth, i think this one is an ottd bug
16:16<andythenorth>is that allowed? :0
16:17<@peter1138>i'm probably wrong of course
16:20<Superuser>"{BLACK}Speed: {GOLD}{VELOCITY}{BLACK} Power: {GOLD}{POWER}" (STR_PURCHASE_INFO_SPEED_POWER) <-- by power do you mean horsepower (hp)?
16:21-!-Djohaal [~Djohaal@] has joined #openttd
16:21<Superuser>yeah, you do right? Pretty sure I've seen the hp rating somewhere?
16:21<@planetmaker>power as in power. It's a physical unit. Yes
16:22<+michi_cc>It can be hp, but also one of the other units OTTD supports (metric, SI, imperial).
16:23<@Alberth>good night
16:23<@planetmaker>night, Alberth
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16:23<Superuser>you make the translator's job so hard ;_;
16:23<Superuser>what is the metric unit for that? And the SI one?
16:24<@peter1138>how hard is to tranlate engine power? heh
16:25<Superuser>engine power! Thanks, translate directly
16:25<Superuser> translates*
16:27<frosch123>working on an engish-english translation? :)
16:28<frosch123>we have only 3 of them
16:28<@peter1138>is there no spec for station property 0x1A?
16:29<frosch123> <- that's the spec
16:29<frosch123>but i failed to put in into the grf spec wiki, because that page is already such a mess
16:29<frosch123>i want to rewrite it, but never got to it :)
16:30<andythenorth>ouch, stations :P
16:31<andythenorth>definitely, everything else seems easier than station nfo :)
16:31<drac_boy>heh heh
16:32<@peter1138>yeah well
16:32<@peter1138>frankly, properties 09/0A and 1A should be ditched
16:33<@peter1138>and then an action2 similar to industry tiles or houses should be used
16:33<frosch123>iirc there was some issue with that
16:33<@peter1138>probably duplication
16:34<frosch123>something which stations do, which industries/houses do not
16:35<frosch123>maybe foundations / groundtile / overlay / station is the issue
16:36<frosch123>i.e. you cannot put foundations and buildings into the same spritelayout as for industries
16:36<@peter1138>also the fact that all existing station newgrfs would be broken
16:36<@peter1138>(but then, aren't they all already? :p)
16:36<andythenorth>also you may not change the spec
16:37<andythenorth>due to the most popular grf
16:37<frosch123>andythenorth: everyone is playing chill pp, so noone notices trunk changes anyway :p
16:37<andythenorth>I wonder if Michael might prefer a saner spec
16:37<andythenorth>could always ask him
16:38<andythenorth>start a thread :P
16:38<andythenorth>frosch123: chill pp is very popular
16:38<frosch123>anyway, i do not think the industry/house spritelayout is any better :p
16:38<andythenorth>or so I'm told :P
16:38<andythenorth>herm, the industry/house spritelayout makes sense to me at least
16:38<frosch123>it would totally suffice if there were 4 hard coded spritelayouts, which the grf could choose from
16:38<andythenorth>maybe that too
16:39<frosch123>the variety only results in a mess because newgrf authors do not understand sprite sorting
16:39<andythenorth>I dunno, maybe I find stations hard only because it's different to industries
16:39<andythenorth>lots of station sets get made
16:39<andythenorth>can't be that complicated
16:39<frosch123>lots? ns, isr, chips
16:40<frosch123>maybe jp
16:40<andythenorth>dutch stations
16:40<andythenorth>oh that's ns
16:40<frosch123>isn't everything integrated into isr?
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16:40<andythenorth>canadian stations, us stations, brick freight stations, UK stations etc
16:41<andythenorth>dwe station tiles
16:41<andythenorth>DB stations
16:41<andythenorth>no shortage :)
16:41<frosch123>andythenorth: half of them is integrated in isr, the other half sounds like non-track tiles which should be objects :p
16:41<andythenorth>no argument
16:41<andythenorth>from me
16:42<drac_boy>frosch123 I would HATE it if the jcindust station grf stopped working :p
16:42*drac_boy NEVER has ever touched the default station tile for as long as I can remember even for passenger trains
16:42<andythenorth>dear Safari: you are not FF
16:42<andythenorth>^ this is a problem
16:42<frosch123>drac_boy: i am not sure whether anyone was serious :p
16:44<drac_boy>frosch123 :P I just said that anyway ;)
16:45<@peter1138>i can't see how to draw a ground sprite, without railtype offset
16:48<@peter1138>you can tell it to add a custom offset via a register
16:49<frosch123>iirc the custom offset disables the default offset
16:49<frosch123>you can then set the custom offset to 0
16:49<@peter1138>yes but there's no way to set the custom offset to 0
16:50<frosch123>just assign 0?
16:50<frosch123>advanced varact 2?
16:50<frosch123>store temporary?
16:50<@peter1138>which varact2?
16:50<frosch123>whichever you like, somewhere in your graphics chain
16:51<frosch123>'"The register for "Add offset to recoloursprite" is defined by the Action 1/2/3 chain with Variable 10 as defined for the recolour sprite. :*The other registers are defined by the Action 1/2/3 chain with Variable 10 as defined for the sprite. '
16:54<@peter1138>right i think i see
16:59<@peter1138>hg backout to the rescue
16:59<andythenorth>hrm, some lang bugs in FIRS build
16:59<andythenorth>dunno what those are :P
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17:11<andythenorth>lo pokka
17:11<andythenorth>look out pikka, there's going to be a ponk!
17:11<Pikka>is it
17:11<andythenorth>what a naughty pinky-ponk!
17:13*andythenorth had better go to bed :P
17:13<@peter1138>andythenorth, no!
17:14<@peter1138>andythenorth, when should chips re... ... ... randomise?
17:14<andythenorth>when overbuilding tiles
17:14<andythenorth>dunno if it randomises for cargo
17:14<@peter1138>overbuilding tiles always rerandomises
17:15<andythenorth>yexo managed to code it so I don't have to ever read any real code, so not sure how it works :P
17:15<andythenorth>it doesn't have any date based graphics malarkey
17:15<andythenorth>or anything like that
17:15<@peter1138>i'm not asking how it works, i'm asking what you want :p
17:16<@peter1138>although thinking about it
17:16<@peter1138>its graphics for stockpiles
17:16<@peter1138>so you probably want it trigger on all the cargo being taken
17:16<andythenorth>there are 2 states for cargo for each direction (+ 1 empty state)
17:16<andythenorth>none / some / lots
17:17<andythenorth>and some tiles have random buildings / cranes / trucks when built
17:17<andythenorth>nothing more than that
17:17<Superuser>can I ask, what is the difference in string name canon between CAPTION and TOOLTIP?
17:17<frosch123>tooltip is that thing that shows up when you hover the mouse over it
17:18<frosch123>caption or title is always visible
17:18<Superuser>I know about tooltips thank you
17:18<Superuser>but where exactly is the caption
17:18<Rubidium>... and usually in the top bar of the windows
17:18<Superuser>have had a hard time finding them
17:19<Superuser>^ that's how Australian people pronounce 'nice'
17:19*Rubidium requests a second opinion on that pronounciation statement (preferably from Pikka)
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17:19<Superuser>oh dear
17:20<Superuser>oh dear
17:20<Superuser> <-- dat anglo centrism
17:20<Superuser>nuff said
17:20<Superuser>several strings need to be added me thinks
17:20<Pikka>Australians pronounce "nice" as "bonza", Rubidium
17:20<Superuser>you have strings for tooltips for different types of depots (e.g. ship depot), but not captions
17:21<Superuser>should I file a bug?
17:21<Pikka>also, ugh
17:22<Pikka>I loaded a savegame from our multiplayer the other day and noticed that one of scuddles' trains is showing yellow corridor doors between every carriage, instead of just at the end of the train
17:22<Superuser>ugh what?
17:22<Superuser>ah ok
17:22<Pikka>but not only can I not recreate the bug, he even has identical trains in the same game which don't have the problem
17:22<Rubidium>Superuser: what tooltips precisely?
17:22<Superuser>I linked to it Rubidium
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17:23<Superuser>if you go back a few strings you will see
17:23<Superuser>this is a disaster
17:24<Pikka>or maybe... I see it D:
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17:24<@peter1138>Pikka, it's an ottd bug, isn't it?
17:24<Rubidium>Superuser: I see only one tooltip for rename depot
17:24<Pikka>no, all mine, peter :)
17:25<Rubidium>since hangars are part of stations, you cannot rename them. The remaining things are depots, so no need for separate strings
17:25<Rubidium>before that it's about all kinds of vehicle types
17:27<__ln__>would it be possible to make those pages linked to by Superuser viewable without logging in?
17:27<__ln__>dunno if logging in is even enough.
17:28<frosch123>login is enough
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>it's not. you need to be a translator (for the language
17:28<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: everyone can view, can't you?
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>i've never logged in
17:28<frosch123>well, i would not notice, since i have edit rights
17:29<andythenorth>time for bed Iggle Piggle
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>"404 - Page Not Found
17:29<Eddi|zuHause> The page you requested could not be found."
17:30<Pikka>goodnight andy
17:30<andythenorth>bye toodle pips
17:30-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
17:36-!-fonsinchen [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:37<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: The redirect after login is broken, in case you haven't notice the 404 URL in the browser bar.
17:38<__ln__>so, i logged in, and.... "In order to view this section, you need to be a translator. Please sign up here to become one."
17:38-!-Superuser [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: i haven't really looked that closely
17:41<__ln__>"Q: Why do I need an account to view languages?
17:41<__ln__>A: Because the viewing will eventually support you giving comments on the current translation. The account is needed to ease communication with you if one of the translators has questions regarding your suggestion."
17:58<frosch123>explaining a missing feature with a missing feature :)
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18:14<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r24885 trunk/src/gfx.cpp (2013-01-03 23:14:38 UTC)
18:14<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Pass proper UTF-16 strings instead of UCS-2 to ICU in order to preserve characters outside the BMP.
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18:50<Pikka>rar Eddi|zuHause
18:54<@peter1138>02 04 00 81 1A 20 00 \2sto 1A 00 00 00 \wx00
18:54<@peter1138>what. is. wrong. with. that.
18:55<Pikka>I don't know, what is wrong with that?
18:56-!-KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:56<Pikka>what does renum say is wrong with that? :)
18:57<Pikka>then I guess nothing is wrong with it
18:57<Pikka>which is not to say that it does what you think it does
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18:59<Eddi|zuHause>you store var 1A (= constant -1) in the temporary register, and return variable 1A?
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>what's the point of storing something and then immediately returning?
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>or is this used as a procedure call?
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>then what's the point of a procedure returning a constant?
19:00<@peter1138>it's not a procedure
19:00<@peter1138>it ensures the temporary register is set to 0
19:00<@peter1138>(1A & 00) = 00
19:00<Pikka>but with nvar 0, it then returns the result as a callback result
19:01<Pikka>which seems a bit pointless, why save something in a temporary register if you're not going to do anything with it? :)
19:01<@peter1138>yes exactly
19:01<@peter1138>it's being... i don't know what i'm doing :D
19:02<@peter1138>where are the escape sequences document? heh
19:02<Wolf01>'night all
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>in the varaction2advanced page
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19:02<@peter1138>not those
19:02<@peter1138>the \wx etc etc
19:04<@peter1138>so \wx is 00 00
19:04<@peter1138>so it's not a callback result
19:04<Pikka>it is
19:04<Pikka>because you used nvar 0
19:04<@peter1138>oh what
19:04<@peter1138>fricking crap
19:05<Pikka>if you want it to go on to action 2 00 you need to use
19:05<Pikka>01 00 00 \w0 \w0 00 00
19:05<Pikka>rather than 00 \w0
19:05<@peter1138>sometimes i fucking hate you!
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is a trap even for some non-newbies ;)
19:06<Pikka>01 00 00 \b0 \b0 00 00 since it's an 81 :)
19:10<@peter1138>//!!Warning (170): Default result cannot be reached.
19:10<frosch123>yeah, that one is the best :)
19:10<frosch123>everyone disables 170 :)
19:11<@peter1138>what the shit
19:12<Pikka>I have about a dozen warnings disabled as standard, I don't even remember what they all are.
19:13<Pikka>172, 132, 100, 194, 170, 144, 86, 76, 209, 141 and 113 in UKRS2...
19:13<Pikka>peter1138: you put // @@WARNING DISABLE 170 somewhere up the top of your NFO.
19:13<@peter1138>well this is a bit irritating
19:14<@peter1138>now have to fix 17 instances of nvar 0 == callback result
19:14<@peter1138>who the fuck implemented this shit
19:14<Pikka>some cunt or other
19:14<@peter1138>i bet
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it was Kant :)
19:16<@peter1138>frosch123, see, if i'd used memset, i'd've been in bed HOURS ago
19:16<frosch123>but... would it have been fun? :p
19:18<@peter1138>there is so much repition
19:18<@peter1138>i'm glad none the stations i did had any varactions :p
19:18<@peter1138>or cargos
19:18<@peter1138>or anything
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>with your newfound knowledge, you can now implement station support in nml :)
19:20<@peter1138>yay it compiles
19:21<@peter1138>hg commit i reckon
19:22<@peter1138>or i rewrite it using an include...
19:25*Pikka bebl
19:26<@peter1138>look at that, it's still broken...
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19:31<@peter1138>ok that was already wrong, so i've not broken it, just not fixed it either
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19:32<drac_boy>supercheese were you the one trying to draw seagulls? or was that someone else? I think I may have messed up my S names
19:32<Supercheese>Yeah, I've got seagulls
19:32<drac_boy>how're they going? especially over the fishing ground? :)
19:33<Supercheese>I think my preprocessor hates me though, since when I moved everything into separate *.pnml files the .grf doesn't work any more -_-
19:33<Supercheese>All I did was separate and #include
19:33<Supercheese>So I've reverted into everything-all-in-one-giant-file
19:34<Supercheese>back to*
19:35<@peter1138>Pikka, stop it
19:36<drac_boy>where did the word 'flats building' come from anyway?
19:36*drac_boy is wondering
19:37<@peter1138>what's a "flats building"?
19:37<drac_boy>uk term apparently ... we just call them towers like everything else here
19:38<@peter1138>oh you mean "flats"
19:38<drac_boy>hm yeah think so
19:39<drac_boy>at least 'terrace house' I can understand .. they're a bit alike to rowhouses over here
19:42<@peter1138>so y eah
19:42<@peter1138>they're called flats, cos they're flat
19:42<@peter1138>single-floor homes
19:43<Elysium>oth words are used in the UK: a "flat" would generally be a fairly 'ordinary' residence that doesn't constitute the entire space within a building, whereas an "apartment" tends to imply a similar concept, but more luxurious. As I understand, "flat" is rarely used in the US.
19:44<@peter1138>apartment is only used to make them _sound_ posher, however it usually means it'll be a new build and thus horrible
19:44<@peter1138>(not that flats are nice anyway)
19:45<Supercheese>"flat" is indeed basically never used in the US
19:45<Supercheese>Pretty much always "apartment"
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19:45<Elysium>Its more of a yuppie term for very urban dwelling, like Chicago 4-flat in Wrigleyville
19:49<drac_boy>elysium also some people use 'shack house' (or was it 'shackle house'?) to refer to something that seem so run down whether its got any working servics or not
19:50<@peter1138>heh, cool, chips uses random bits that ... don't exist :p
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19:52<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: don't try to fix other people's code after midnight :p
19:52<@peter1138>not touching that
19:52<@peter1138>just setting the triggers so i can test rerandomising
19:52<Elysium>Apartments = low property values, and later section 8 housing
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19:52<drac_boy>yeah that peter1138 I forgot exactly what it was called at first
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>Elysium: so what's that "condo" term i'Ve heard somewhere?
19:53<Elysium>basically its a house split in half
19:53<drac_boy>isn't a house based space usually called a duplex or triplex anyway?
19:53<Elysium>like take a small house, mirror it on the other side, and thats a condo
19:54<drac_boy>minding you that triplexs are a bit rare .. usually need a big house to work
19:54<Elysium>divided by a garage
19:54<Elysium>in most cases
19:54<@peter1138>a condo is a flat that is individually owned
19:54<@peter1138>at least, in the US
19:54<Elysium>correct, condo's are personally owned, and not rented
19:54<@peter1138>2 houses stuck together is call a semi-detached ;p
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>in german the term "Doppelhaushälfte" (double-huse-half) is frequently used
19:55<Elysium>i've seen places that look like apartments called or sold as condos
19:55<@peter1138>"A condominium, or condo, is the form of housing tenure and other real property where a specified part of a piece of real estate (usually of an apartment house) is individually owned"
19:56<drac_boy>sometimes some people may manage to have a triplex designed as a house with 2 floor and full height basement .. so its then one-floor home space for each person with outside stairway to get to the upper floor home
19:56<@peter1138>there's also "cluster homes"
19:56<Elysium>I'll throw you guys a term that I used when purchasing my house, In-law suite
19:56<@peter1138>which are 4 homes on each corner
19:56<@peter1138>horrible nasty things they are
19:56<Elysium>In-law suite is defined as a separate living area with a full kitchen and sleeping area
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: so a "condo" is what one would call "Eigentumswohnung" (owned-flat)
19:57<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, nah, i'm english, we don't use the word
19:57<Elysium>thus my mother in-law lives in my basement and I never see her, and make my old lady do my laundry
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: we gave you the opportunity to change that... :p
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19:57<@peter1138>equivalent term is "commonhold", in constrast with freehold/leasehold, etc
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19:58<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, well, now we're forced anyway with the eurozone ;p
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19:58<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: you're not even in the eurozone
19:58<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, i'm pretending i'm a daily mail or the sun reader
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20:31<drac_boy>pikka you by any chance there for a moment?
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20:42<pikka2>here I am, standing by a busy road at indooroopily
20:43<pikka2>wot larks
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20:45<Eddi|zuHause>"So steh ich hier und kann nicht anders"
20:45<Eddi|zuHause>(allegedly said by Martin Luther)
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20:46<pikka2>what a guy
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20:53<pikka2>I am now in a different place, I was in someone's way
20:53*drac_boy is trying to figure out what 'wot larks' means
20:53<pikka2>such details!
20:54<drac_boy>anyway pikka2 I'm just curious (don't mind me asking you since ukrs is the only one I know with this kind of thing) but how hard is it to code a single locomotive to run with different spec on different railtypes?
20:54<drac_boy>especially that electro-diesel one .. or any of the overhead/3rd rail emu
20:55<@peter1138>if railtype == blah then return foo else return bar
20:55<pikka2>not terribly difficult drac
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20:55<pikka2>indeed peter
20:55<@peter1138>nice and predictable
20:56<@peter1138>not like trying to make triggers work in callbacks eh
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20:57<drac_boy>thanks pikka2 I was just kinda thinking about some of these real locomotives I wanted to more or less loosely replicate
20:57<drac_boy>especially switzerland's few diesel/electric passenger locomotives
20:58<drac_boy>for now I'm just sticking to the simple one-railtype locomotives but maybe I'll figure that out hopefully
20:58<pikka2>drac, imo what you should do is code one to begin with, then you have a template
20:59<drac_boy>yeah thats quite true :)
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21:02<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: other examples include the dutch set's multi-voltage engiens and the french NG set's rack rail engines
21:02<drac_boy>oh didn't know dutch had that too
21:03<Eddi|zuHause>it gets tricky when you don't know which trackset is loaded
21:03<drac_boy>yeah nothing like electric locomotive running on standard tracks..just like the original locos did :)
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21:10<@peter1138>zbase signals are...
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21:13<pikka2>are they?
21:13<@peter1138>they're huge
21:14<@peter1138>zbase + ukrs + finescale
21:14<@peter1138>funny stuff
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21:19<pikka2>Finescale signals are tiny
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21:20<@peter1138>not when you've got extra zoom levels on
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22:33<Flygon>I remember when this room was active D:
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---Logclosed Fri Jan 04 00:00:27 2013