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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-01-04

---Logopened Fri Jan 04 00:00:27 2013
---Daychanged Fri Jan 04 2013
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01:28<Supercheese>I need some sprites, I want to code a .grf with that
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01:58<@peter1138>yet another wacko company
01:58<@peter1138>every few years there's a new one with this great idea to make airships
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02:52<@Terkhen>good morning
02:57<Pikka>moin Terkhen
03:00<Pikka>why not?
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03:46<@peter1138>Pikka, code some stations so i can test RA2s
03:46<@peter1138>cos nobody else can do it right :
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03:54<@peter1138>Pikka, the Freightliner has a RA2 inside a callback!
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03:57<@peter1138>slight problem with the dummy RA2 idea :-(
03:58<Flygon> Only in Australia would fast commuter trains be limited to 80km/h
04:05<@peter1138>peak hour, 24 passengers
04:05<@peter1138>i wish
04:05<Flygon>peter1138: It was probably heading TOWARDS the city
04:05<Flygon>Outbound trains tend to be packed quite bad
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04:44<@peter1138>hmm, extend_vehicle_life isn't available in advanced settings
04:47<Flygon>peter1138: I'm just sad it'll probably end up scrapped, despite being barely damaged... it's almost 40 years old. Metro hates Hitachi trains. :(
04:48<Flygon>Also, Seasons
04:48<Flygon>A feature I wsh OpenTTD had :p
04:51<Pikka>does it
04:52<@planetmaker>it does
04:52<Pikka>it's just the recolour though
04:52<Pikka>doesn't do anything desyncy or anything
04:52<@planetmaker>seasons in openttd? it's more than that, if you look at variable snow line
04:57<@peter1138>Pikka, it means it never gets triggered
04:57<@peter1138>so it's never rerandomised
04:58<@peter1138>so setting 02 as the trigger bit is confusing :p
05:04-!-Netsplit <-> quits: |Jeroen|, SpComb^, dot_, @Belugas, Strid__, Markk, ToBeFree, Defaulttinen, blathijs, Flygon, (+75 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
05:06<dihedral>\o/ netsplits :-)
05:06<dihedral>netsplits everywhere
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05:10<Supercheese>Night all
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05:11<@peter1138>Pikka, ish
05:11<@peter1138>Pikka, btw i think you'd want trigger 01, not 02
05:12<Pikka>I generally do
05:12<@peter1138>i.e. it changes when new cargo is put on
05:12<@peter1138>otherwise it randomly changes when it goes in a depot
05:13<Pikka>oh, that's a thing
05:13<Pikka>colour mapping is cached
05:13<SpComb>"The peak-hour train, carrying 24 passengers, derailed after the tracks buckled due to the heat."
05:13<SpComb>here in Finland, we have to heat our tracks :p
05:13<Pikka>if it changed on loading, it wouldn't actually change until the train turned around
05:14<@peter1138>that's fine
05:14<Pikka>is it?
05:15<@peter1138>the cache is updated in the trigger
05:15<@peter1138>so it works
05:15<Pikka>well, perhaps I'll fix it
05:15<Pikka>some time :)
05:16<@peter1138> 4250 * 39,..... 02 00 11 80 01 00 10 11 00 11 00 11 00 11 00 11 00 11 00 11 00 11 00 11 00 11 00 11 00 11 00 11
05:16<@peter1138>,....... 00 11 00 11 00 11 00
05:16<@peter1138>i added that line
05:16<@peter1138>after the line with the existing randomaction2
05:17<@peter1138>so it's inserted into the chain you used and always continues that chain
05:17<@peter1138>also changed the trigger in both from 02 to 01
05:18<Pikka>looks suspiciously like one I already have in there but is commented out :)
05:18<@peter1138>just noticed
05:18<@peter1138>it's not working
05:18<Pikka>that particular part you're looking at
05:18<@peter1138>or is it
05:18<Pikka>is for "real coloured freightliners"
05:18<Pikka>not for the company coloured versions
05:19<Pikka>try setting the parameter and see if it works
05:19<@peter1138>so company coloured freightliners already randomise?
05:19<Pikka>they probably don't rerandomise
05:19<@peter1138>they do
05:20<@peter1138>at least, with the line i added, heh
05:20<@peter1138>hmm, bum
05:20<@peter1138>actually you're right
05:20<@peter1138>the colours don't change unless it's reversed
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05:21<Pikka>that would be why I commented out the similar line in the first place
05:21<@peter1138>yay, love nfo
05:22<Pikka>well, I'm pushing the spec a lot by using recolour sprites the way I do
05:22<@peter1138>The return value is cached to speed up sprite processing, and only updated via callback 32 bit 1 (or when loading/starting a game or rearranging the consist).
05:22<@peter1138>well i could extend that
05:22<Pikka>the way the grf is at the moment is fine
05:22<Pikka>no-one notices that their freightliners load the same coloured containers every time :)
05:23<Pikka>especially since they're not always exactly the same, because the container patterns (white/grey/cc/2cc) /are/ randomised
05:31<@peter1138>reversing a partially loading freightliner changes the container position :p
05:34<Pikka>does it?
05:36<Pikka>on the middle cars, because the middle cars are actually only 4-directional?
05:36<Pikka>laziness :)
05:37<Pikka>anyway, they work well enough. maybe I'll improve them one day when I have nothing better to do ;)
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05:37<Pikka>perhaps they don't rerandomise... eh
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05:42<@peter1138>nope, only with the line i added
05:42<@peter1138>so it affects both
05:42<Pikka>there you go, then
05:43<Pikka>if you want to make it so it refreshes the colour on trigger, I'll think about changing it for the next version
05:43<Pikka>but right now, it is a goodnighttimes
05:43<Pikka>toodle pip
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05:43<V453000>doom is coming onwards to the steakhouse!
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05:45*Flygon crushes drac_boy up, blends, and uses in an oil fired steam locomotive. He's lacking in coal fired locomotives :B, "Heya drac_boy"
05:45<Flygon>Also, menta Wolf01
05:47*drac_boy stuffs flygon into a dual stroker equipped locomotive's tender to be cut up by the two augers :P
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05:55<MINM>...why are there creepers on that train D:
05:55<MINM>why don't we make toyland into mineland.
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05:56<MINM>toyland disaster: creeper blows bus up
05:59<@peter1138>V453000, who made that?
05:59<@peter1138>or rather what is it? heh
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06:01<V453000>peter1138: guess who ... :) and it is livestock :)
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06:09<Flygon>If we get a Minecraft overhaul, we're getting a Pokemon overhaul @_@
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06:12<@peter1138>V453000, is each... box... one item?
06:12<V453000>I think it is 14 per box
06:13<@peter1138>any plans for other MC references? :p
06:20<V453000>the whole train class is a bit inspired by having everything "box-like"
06:20<V453000>other than that probably not :) I am not a mc player myself
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>so references so far: nyan, mincraft, ...?
06:31<V453000>nyan cat was removed
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>ooh :/
06:32<V453000>and one creeper among livestock isnt that much of a strong reference :)
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>a reference is a reference is a reference
06:33<@peter1138>is it a weak reference?
06:33<@peter1138>likely to be garbage collected...
06:35<V453000>well yeah but by being like 1:1000 probability that you get a creeper for livestock is a lot "weaker" than purchasing a whole network of cat trains ;)
06:38<frosch123>is there also a hydralisk cargo?
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06:53<V453000>that would be hard as hell to make it obvious it is a hydralisk frosch123 :D
06:54<V453000>lets say not YET
06:59<V453000>lol I just put my monitor the short side down, so many lines :D
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08:18<@peter1138>I thought I have listed all possibilities...
08:18<@peter1138>^ lol
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>indeed :p
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08:26<@peter1138>my roadtypes patch :S
08:27<@peter1138>can't find file to patch at input line 737
08:27<@peter1138>good stuff
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08:57<@peter1138>just as well really, this is crap
09:05<@peter1138>Belugas, hi :D
09:26<@Belugas>hello my sweet peter1138 :) love to see you having fun with coding ;)
09:44*Belugas is ordering some more cables for some cool routing. got a drum sequencer for tablet too, just need to learn how to use it
09:44<@peter1138>apparently converting a load of function signatures to use bool
09:44<@peter1138>does not cause a compile failure, nor warning
09:45<@peter1138>Belugas, yeah, that was a bit different with the drums the other day
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10:51<@peter1138>quiet here today
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10:55<Eddi|zuHause>/quit here today
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11:26<@Belugas>fact is, i really liked those drums sets
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11:39<@Belugas>it made a fresh feeling
11:39<@Belugas>no... i am not busy at all :S
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12:12<drac_boy>hi supermop
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13:03<@peter1138>andythenorth, yes
13:03<FLHerne>andythenorth: ol
13:04<andythenorth>what if I ROT 13 it?
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13:05<Pinkbeast>Ohg gung gevpx arire jbexf!
13:08<andythenorth>@seen pokka
13:08<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pokka was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 8 hours, 49 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <Pokka> no, it doesn't mean anything, Supercheese
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13:18<andythenorth>lo Alberth
13:18<@Alberth>lo andy
13:19<andythenorth>lego fans are such losers
13:22<@Alberth>you stopped building legos?
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13:24<andythenorth>just arguing with people on forums
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13:27<@Alberth>oh, it is safe to ignore that
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13:27<Pinkbeast>Is there any fandom such that there aren't annoying people to argue with on Web forums?
13:27<Pinkbeast>Other than the Amish, I guess.
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13:30<andythenorth>mostly TTD
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13:38<andythenorth>that's me
13:38<@peter1138>(or something)
13:38<@peter1138>hg import maybe
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13:40<andythenorth>not broken for maglev :)
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24886 /trunk/src/lang (6 files in 2 dirs) (2013-01-04 18:45:30 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>simplified_chinese - 20 changes by xiangyigao
13:45<@DorpsGek>greek - 49 changes by Evropi
13:45<@DorpsGek>icelandic - 131 changes by Stimrol
13:45<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 11 changes by H2
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 1 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>tamil - 4 changes by aswn
13:47<andythenorth>not broken for standard rails. Not broken for railtypes
13:47<andythenorth>not broken for canset narrow gauge :o
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14:04<andythenorth>peter1138 I thinks you fixed it
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14:13<andythenorth>maybe I commit
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14:25<burtybob>With autorenew enabled does that send vehicles to the depot to be renewed or does the renew happen when the vehicle goes for a service based on it's "service interval"?
14:25<@peter1138>when it goes for service i believe
14:26<@peter1138>i seem to recall that most cases of "autorenew doesn't work" are down to servicing being disabled
14:26<frosch123>it enables servicing
14:27<frosch123>but pbs makes finding a depot harder sometimes
14:27<@peter1138>god this is shit :p
14:27<@peter1138>so many special cases for trams, heh
14:27<burtybob>So it sends the vehicle to the depot regardless of service interval?
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14:30<frosch123>ah wait, i think it depends on how servicing is disabled
14:30<frosch123>if it is only disabled due to breakdowns disabled, it is enabled
14:30<frosch123>but if you set the service interval to zero or something like that, it cannot enable it
14:30<frosch123>autoreplace/renew triggers "service needed"
14:31<frosch123>when the servicing happens and such is the same as for any other service type
14:31<frosch123>so, autoreplace respects the service interval, it does not shorten it
14:34<burtybob>Cheers :D
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14:34<oRuin>Hey :) I was wondering if someone could help me with my problem, its concerning my dedicated server and newgrfs. I'ts the last post on this thread
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14:36<@Terkhen>oRuin: dedicated servers cannot host NewGRF downloads; the "download missing NewGRFs" option refers to downloading them from OpenTTD's online content
14:36<oRuin>ok, so how do I use newgrfs on my server?
14:36<@Terkhen>if they cannot download them, that means that you are using a NewGRF that is not available in OpenTTD's online content
14:36<@Terkhen>either limit your game to NewGRFs available there or tell your players how to adquire the missing NewGRFs manually
14:36<oRuin>hmm, all of them are available
14:37<oRuin>how do i limit my game, sorry im confused
14:38<@Terkhen>oRuin: make sure that all of the NewGRFs you are using are listed here:
14:38<oRuin>they are
14:38<oRuin>and where do i place them on my server?
14:39<oRuin>currently I have them in content_download/newgrfs
14:40<@Terkhen>content_downloads is for NewGRFs downloaded by the game itself, just place them in the newgrf subfolder
14:40<oRuin>yeh tried in there
14:41<oRuin>my brother still does not get 'missing content' when he joins the server
14:41<@Terkhen>but if your clients are the ones who cannot connect because of missing NewGRFs, that means that the server found them and that the game is already created
14:41<@peter1138>are the grfs still listed in the config?
14:41<@peter1138>it may wipe them out if it didn't find them the first time
14:41<oRuin>the cfg is from my client
14:42<oRuin>i set it up locally
14:42<oRuin>then copied to newgrfs and the config over
14:42<andythenorth>peter1138: trams have magic crap for corners, and getting stuck and all kinds of stuff iirc :P
14:42<oRuin>been trying to work this out for days, it's just not working
14:43<andythenorth>erp, maybe tram tiles should be a state machine, Eddi|zuHause would like that :)
14:43<andythenorth>or a specific 'guided' vehicle type :P
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>now you're just throwing up stuff :p
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>and technically, road curves already have a (simple) statemachine
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>and trams just reuse the road stuff, except for overtaking and reversing
14:46<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> so, autoreplace respects the service interval, it does not shorten it <-- last time i checked, it seemed to work for autoreplace, but not for autorenew
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>causing it to constantly bother you with "vehicle gets old" messages, which you can't disable individually afair, only "all vehicle messages"
14:47<@Terkhen>oRuin: the problem is that other clients get a "missing NewGRFs" message when they try to connect to your server, right?
14:48<oRuin>the problem is, my server is not using any newgrfs i want it to use
14:48<oRuin>i have the newgrf .tars in the newgrf subfolder
14:48<frosch123>how did you configure the grfs on the server?
14:48<oRuin>my config file (that i created locally) has them listed
14:49<frosch123>if you copied openttd.cfg from win to linux, it might be a / \ issue in the paths
14:49<frosch123>does the server complain about invalid filename in the config?
14:49<oRuin>thats what my brother just mentioned, 1 moment
14:53<@peter1138>andythenorth, more than that
14:53<@peter1138>special cases for towns, bridges, level crossings, etc, etc,
14:53<@Terkhen>oRuin: create a savegame in a client that uses those NewGRFs and load it in the dedicated server, that way you will be able to see if the server found the NewGRFs or not
14:53<andythenorth>urgh, I tried to fix crossings once, for about 4 days :P
14:53<andythenorth>tram crossings use that silly road sprite
14:54<oRuin>great stuff
14:54<oRuin>working :)
14:54<oRuin>was just the / \ issue!
14:54<oRuin>thanks very much for your time guys
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15:08<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> tram crossings use that silly road sprite <- this is easy to solve for three-layers or one-layers version of roadtypes, but with two layers it's difficult because the map-space for the second layer is occupied by the railtype
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>in the one-layer-version you just have enough space, and in the three-layer-version you just sacrifice one layer
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: you currently can't have a rail/tram crossing, it will always force the road to be present
15:12<andythenorth>it's solvable, it just looks terrible
15:12<andythenorth>due to monorail
15:12<andythenorth>where's my screenshots :P
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well if the graphics are the problem, then you just need to provide proper underlay/overlay sprites
15:14<andythenorth>iirc, that's not possible, due to the way railtypes are implemented
15:14<andythenorth>from half-memory only though
15:14<@peter1138>with newgrf railtypes it's easypeasy to have a tram-only level crossing
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>the drawing order could be something like: ground, rail underlay, tram underlay, [road], tram overlay, rail overlay, [...]
15:15<@peter1138>pre-railtypes it wasn't, and that's why you can't
15:15<andythenorth>the issue is literally that monorail + tram tracks makes no sense :P
15:15<@peter1138>andythenorth, that's not an issue at all
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>monorail crossings make no sense in general
15:15<andythenorth>I can haz some screen shots, I'm looking
15:15<@peter1138>monorail/maglev + road never made sense
15:16<andythenorth>you don't want all 10 though :P
15:17<andythenorth>I have the patch...somewhere :P
15:18<@peter1138>i don't really care about the detail of how it'll look at the moment
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15:20<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the currently floating around proposals were "one layer for everything, road/tram-combinations encoded in roadtype", "two layers, one tram-only and one road-only", and "two or three layers, free combination"
15:20<FLHerne>Query: Is there a reason that NewObjects can optionally have bridges built over them, but not stations?
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: yes.
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: station specs are older than object specs
15:21<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Correction: What is the reason that...
15:21<FLHerne>Aw. Can we have new station specs? :P
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>you can, but it won't work with existing station grfs
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>the coding effort wouldn't be that large
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15:22<FLHerne>Yet another reason for me to learn more C++, then :-/
15:22<andythenorth>do NewObjects reliably set a height for the sprites?
15:22<andythenorth>without lying?
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>you need a property for stations defining the minimum bridge height (or "no bridge"), similar to objects, and you need the bridge building code to allow station tiles underneath (make sure the bits are free in the map)
15:23<@peter1138>didn't we already discuss this?
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>something in the order of 20 loc, i'd expect, so 2 hours of coding :)
15:24<andythenorth>peter1138: endlessly I think :)
15:24<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, it's a bit more than that
15:24<andythenorth>I might go and count up how many black birds are in a pie or something
15:25<@peter1138>27 loc
15:25<andythenorth>maybe I add a dock industry to FIRS
15:25<@peter1138>it was written years ago, it's never been added because of sprite sorting issues
15:27<@peter1138>they don't use powered track any more?
15:28<andythenorth>some AHOLs whine about that
15:28<andythenorth>but meanwhile! No shorts due to connecting wrong!
15:28<andythenorth>no dead sections!
15:28<andythenorth>no power drop!
15:29<andythenorth>station bridges :)
15:30<@peter1138>May 2007, btw
15:30<andythenorth>I haven't missed them much in those 6 years ;)
15:31<andythenorth>something road-y might be more interesting for gamplay
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15:32<@peter1138>bridges over roadstops?
15:32<FLHerne>peter1138: Nice picture. Can have? :P
15:32<FLHerne>If it glitches in some cases, we could just not build bridges in that case :P
15:32<andythenorth>you want the picture he posted to demonstrate the issues with the sprite sorter?
15:33<@peter1138>it glitches in all cases
15:33<andythenorth>download it :P
15:34*FLHerne needs to work on making contracted sentences comprehensible (or just not writing them)
15:34<andythenorth>I'm going to commit that CHIPS thing
15:34<andythenorth>as I have found no further breakage in the last hour
15:34<FLHerne>peter1138: Ah well. It isn't that obvious :P
15:34<andythenorth>mind, OpenTTD has not been running for the last hour :P
15:34<andythenorth>"high quality software ftw"
15:35<andythenorth>peter1138: yexo might be interested in what / how you fixed it
15:35<andythenorth>I am way too lazzy to read the diffs ;)
15:35<@peter1138>check the export :p
15:36<@peter1138>first part is reverting r223
15:36<@peter1138>second part is setting temp[0] to 0
15:36<@peter1138>for every single chain where it's needed
15:36<@peter1138>personally i consider it a slight flaw in the spec, but never mind
15:36<@peter1138>it was made to do something hard
15:37<@peter1138>and so something that could be simple is hard as well :p
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15:37<andythenorth>I applied that export just with patch, that expected to work? (wfm)
15:38<drac_boy>you making any progress on anything yet andythenorth? I just had to ask mind you
15:38<andythenorth>yes, I am fixing CHIPS
15:38<andythenorth>you should see the big patch I have
15:38<@peter1138>andythenorth, might, put hg import might do it better, i dunno
15:38<@peter1138>not really much of an hg user
15:38<andythenorth>me neither :P
15:39<drac_boy>heh ok I wouldn't ask about it then :)
15:39<@peter1138>you can do it all as one
15:39<@peter1138>but having the backout separate makes it tidier
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>hg import will (or should) automatically make 2 commits out of it, and possibly preserve the author of the commit
15:42-!-Chrill [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds evil :p
15:58<@Alberth>bananad might be better :)
15:58-!-Alberth [] has left #openttd []
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>what does the banana-daemon do?
15:59<andythenorth>it takes away alberths
16:09<drac_boy>heh :)
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16:19<Pikka>isn't it madam!
16:19<andythenorth>peterer fixed my station blahs
16:20<andythenorth>now you can station walk, even maglevs
16:20<andythenorth>to your heart's desire
16:20<andythenorth>so there is good in the world
16:20<Pikka>blah to people who want separate tram tracks!
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16:20<Pikka>trams are definitely in the "it seemed like a good idea at the time" category
16:21<Pikka>along with regearing cargos :D
16:21<@peter1138>i disliked trams from the start
16:21<@peter1138>they're just smallish trains :p
16:21<Pikka>some of them
16:21<andythenorth>no silly signals
16:22<andythenorth>trains driving through each other!
16:22<andythenorth>they're almost as good as ships :P
16:22<Pikka>anyway, down with trams, up with roadtypes
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16:22<Pikka>including roadtypes with tram tracks
16:23<Pikka>but not including trams as a separate layer!
16:23<andythenorth>is that even controversial?
16:23<Pikka>everyone wants to keep trams as a separate layer
16:23<andythenorth>they're halfwits?
16:23<Pikka>so tram tracks can have a different owner from the road
16:23<andythenorth>they're strange foamers?
16:23<Pikka>for whatever reason
16:23<andythenorth>oh that
16:24<andythenorth>gameplay and crap :P
16:24<andythenorth>so I don't have to build bridges over your road
16:24<Pikka>you don't have to build bridges over my road
16:24<Pikka>you just have to accept that one tile of your tram line will be owned by me
16:24<andythenorth>well then
16:24<andythenorth>where's the issue
16:24<andythenorth>silly pickles
16:24<@peter1138>not if you don't build it
16:25<Pikka>peter: my proposed spec allows "upgrading" other people's roads without taking ownership
16:26<Pikka>also people are getting hung up on crap like overhead monorails and fake subways
16:26<Pikka>stop it at once, silly people
16:26<andythenorth>overhead monorails are fucked anyway
16:26<andythenorth>they can't pass through bridges
16:26<andythenorth>fake subways blah
16:26<drac_boy>pikka heh .. I really like trams .. just wish for non-wired versions .. but I do agree.. monorail/etc don't make sense in the current "flat tiles" geometry
16:27<drac_boy>not to mention how do you even make a monorail road crossing? you don't!
16:27<andythenorth>not even sure what I'd do with roadtypes
16:27<andythenorth>why not!
16:28<@peter1138>dirt tracks for heqs
16:28<andythenorth>ban trucks in town
16:28<Pikka>oh, that's the other thing
16:28<andythenorth>trams without weasels
16:28<andythenorth>wires *
16:28<@peter1138>cobblestone roads in old towns
16:28<Pikka>"if tram and road aren't separate layers, I can't use different grfs for road and tram tracks"
16:28<andythenorth>who gives a crap
16:29<andythenorth>I can't even have smoke for ships
16:29<andythenorth>is FLHerne coding it?
16:29<Pikka>bitching about roadtypes, FLHerne
16:29<FLHerne>Ah, yes :P
16:30*FLHerne hadn't looked at the history yet
16:30*Pikka thinks maybe today is hoqvs day
16:30<FLHerne>Different grfs for the road and for non-road types would be nice.
16:30<andythenorth>is that some kind of giant dump-truck-bus thing?
16:30<andythenorth>a fricking pony would be nice too
16:31<andythenorth>and ice cream on it
16:31<FLHerne>Any sort of roadtypes would be nice, too :-)
16:31<@peter1138>you have 2
16:31<andythenorth>correct answer
16:31<Eddi|zuHause> <Pikka> you just have to accept that one tile of your tram line will be owned by me <-- you mean "you can't build tram tracks over my road, because there is no function that guarantees that all my vehicles can cross your new roadtype"?
16:31<FLHerne>andythenorth: Would the pony like the icecream on it?
16:32<FLHerne>My rat doesn't like having icecream on him at all, but that's entirely irrelevant to your point
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>like, i could have busses that don't fit under tram catenary or something
16:32<Pikka>yes there is, eddi.
16:32<@peter1138>and yet they fit under bridges? :p
16:32<Pikka>have you ever tried connecting, say, 3rd rail electrified track to overhead electrified track in current versions of openttd?
16:33<drac_boy>pikka...nutracks already does that?
16:33<FLHerne>peter1138: If the catenary fits under bridges, it must be (slightly) lower than them :P
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: have you ever tried to connect third rail to electric _of another player_?
16:33<FLHerne>And yes, I know it isn't actually drawn under bridges
16:33<FLHerne>(or is that just rails catenary?)
16:33<Pikka>"another player" is irrelevent
16:33<Pikka>if trains of the old railtype won't run on the new railtype, you can't build the tile
16:34<Pikka>if rvs of the old roadtype won't run on the new roadtype, you can't build the tile
16:34<Pikka>same thing
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: so now, you built this tram thing, but now you want to switch to trolleybus, but some tiles you can't remove the rails because they belong to another player, or you used up your town rating or somesuch
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>and potentially trolley bus and tram cannot cross
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>(because like the catenaries are incompatible or so)
16:35<andythenorth>complain to the newgrf author
16:35<Pikka>firstly, that sounds like a bad idea from a grf design point of view
16:36<Pikka>secondly, at the moment I can remove my roads or tramtracks that have your vehicles on them
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>it's "realistic" i'm sure ;)
16:36<Pikka>I can block your roads with level crossings, I can do all sorts of things that aren't conducive to cooperative gameplay
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: yes, because you built the road/tram track
16:37<Pikka>this doesn't make the situation significantly worse
16:37<Pikka>and also, your "solution" to this problem only solves the problem wrt trams vs road vehicles
16:37-!-ArkRoyal [] has joined #openttd
16:38<Pikka>do we need to make highways and dirt roads separate layers to prevent conflicts between highway and offroad vehicles?
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>no, that's just a matter of how to organize the compatibility half-order
16:39<Pikka>treating trams as a special case is bad. any special cases are bad if we're designing an open-ended spec for people to do with as they wish.
16:39<ArkRoyal>I don't know if I'm asking in the right place, but I was told to moot vague ideas in the IRC (which I think is here). Would there be any call for a bouys pack so that people could create realistic boyage in games?
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>which isn't a half-order anyway because it's not transitive
16:39<drac_boy>pikka I think the only reason trams had to be coded apart is because trams can't just simply "turn where they want to go down to"
16:39<drac_boy>they have to follow a fixed route
16:39<drac_boy>I could be wrong tho
16:40<Pikka>the same goes for any vehicle which can only use certain roadtypes, drac_boy
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: there's the other spec proposal where you don't differentiate between tram-like and road-like, you just can free-form combine two (or three) roadtypes on one tile
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>so you could have e.g. subway, road and elevated-monorail on the same tile
16:40<FLHerne>ArkRoyal: 'bouys', 'boyage' (!), and the spec for that might not actually exist yet
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>each with different owners and road layouts
16:40<Pikka>that's a whole other order of thing, though eddi
16:41<FLHerne>You could create NewObject buoys that overlapped the real ones, in the same way as Quast65's assorted stuff?
16:41<@peter1138>might as well delete all my roadtypes stuff
16:41<drac_boy>pikka what I had actually meant was a bus could decide to turn left instead of go straight .. but a tram can't just do that
16:41<Pikka>it can if there's tram tracks to the left, drac_boy
16:41<Pikka>don't do that peter1138
16:41<drac_boy>pikka and what if there isn't?
16:42<Pikka>then it can't
16:42<Pikka>and if there isn't road to the left, the bus can't turn left either
16:42<andythenorth>herp, any roadtypes > 0 roadtypes
16:42<drac_boy>well there is a road to left .. but no tram track there tho. but anyway .. I'll rather not drag into an arguement over needing trams to be seperated from road
16:42<Pikka>what if there's tram track but no road, drac_boy?
16:42<ArkRoyal>oh hello FLH - presume you can guess who I actually am? Could a NewGRF pack be made to make them look right, as opposed to behave right?
16:43<Pikka>and what about my B-triples which can only drive on highways and private roads?
16:43<@peter1138>on the next tile?
16:43<ArkRoyal>presumably behaving right is more difficult?
16:43*andythenorth figures that working code wins arguments
16:43<@peter1138>talking about putting road bits down dynamically based on what's next to the tile?
16:43<andythenorth>apache voting rules? :P
16:43<@peter1138>(cos that'd suck)
16:43<andythenorth>peter1138 deletes his roadtypes patch, +/-1 ?
16:44<drac_boy>heh andythenorth thats why I haven't talked much about some of my own things yet because I'll prefer to share a demostration grf first instead :)
16:44*andythenorth -1
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: that would totally break with two parallel roads
16:44<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, quite
16:44<Pikka>we're waiting eagerly for that day, drac_boy
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>simcity had such problems
16:44*andythenorth warn me when you'll talk more than you do, I'll get ear plugs :P
16:44<@peter1138>if you have only one type of road, and have 3 road types (road, tram, road + tram)
16:45<@peter1138>then if your road turns left, your tram will too
16:45<Pikka>make a basic spec, leave making it look pretty to the grf :P
16:45<@peter1138>i'm not talking about looks
16:46<drac_boy>eddi which simcity version?
16:46<drac_boy>the 4000 one with controlable vehicles?
16:46<Pikka>what are you talking about then? that trams will see little dead ends everywhere they can turn around in?
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: when i say simcity i mean of course simcity
16:46<@peter1138>Pikka, yes
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>not simcity 4
16:46<andythenorth>they won't just get stuck? Like they do now? o_O
16:46<FLHerne>ArkRoyal: PM
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>(there is no simcity 4000 anyway)
16:47<@peter1138>Pikka, natually if you only have one type of road on a tile, then you only have one set of road bits
16:47<Pikka>perhaps that's a vehicle property
16:47<drac_boy>eddi I don't recall classic simcity having different types
16:47<drac_boy>unless there were two different editions of it
16:47<Pikka>"can't turn around anywhere, ever"
16:47<@peter1138>and any vehicle that can go on that tile can use any of those bits
16:48<Pikka>yes... so perhaps it's a vehicle thing, it needs to be told not to go into dead ends because it can't turn around?
16:48<drac_boy>I only recall there being road and serves-any-tiles rail alone .. but simcity 2000 required stations for the rails .. at least it also added subways to that
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: no, but it had automatic crossing building, where you'd end up with crossings everywhere if you built two parallel roads
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>i think they tried to handle that case in simcity3000, but it was not usable on special cases
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>then simcity4 came along where you had more like "road bits", which you altered by dragging in some direction
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>but it still had cases where it broke
16:50<Pikka>it already works like that :D
16:50<Pikka>peter1138, trams already don't try to turn around in stubs
16:50<andythenorth>they just get stuck, like stupid dumbasses :P
16:51<andythenorth>but probably correctly
16:51<Pikka>they don't even try
16:51<andythenorth>I'm agreeing :P
16:51<Pikka>no, they don't get stuck, andythenorth
16:51<Pikka>they correctly continue past the stub and round the loop
16:51<andythenorth>case of no loop?
16:51<@peter1138>yet more special-case code for trams
16:51<andythenorth>I had that case in mind :P
16:51<Pikka>even though turning around in the stub and going back the other way would get them there faster
16:51<ArkRoyal>FLHerne: Had the same idea - just PM'd you
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: you can't build a loop on a road if the road continues
16:52<FLHerne>ArkRoyal: Can you see my query?
16:52<andythenorth>you have to demolish some building to build your loop
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>(if you remove the tram layer)
16:52<andythenorth>rm trams
16:52<Pikka>they go to the end of the track and get stuck
16:52<andythenorth>they're dumb anyway
16:53<andythenorth>no good newgrfs featuring them
16:53-!-valhalla1w [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:53<@peter1138>i'm in favour of 2 road types per tile
16:53<drac_boy>actually I use HEQS virtually on all of my games
16:53<drac_boy>especially railmotors
16:53<@peter1138>independent roadbits
16:53<Pikka>it's too messy, peter1138
16:54<@peter1138>trams are messy
16:54<andythenorth>someone's mum is too messy
16:54<andythenorth>dunno whose
16:54<@peter1138>roadtypes would be a damn sight easier if they'd never been hacked in
16:54<Pikka>I agree
16:54<@peter1138>(to ttdpatch, and copied to ottd)
16:54<andythenorth>rm them
16:54<andythenorth>I'll help :P
16:54<Pikka>it's all stevenh and some other guy's fault!
16:54<FLHerne>drac_boy: Do you mean those gmund-mog thingies?
16:54<andythenorth>removing must be easier, right?
16:54<@peter1138>i think i'd be shot for removing savegame compatibility
16:54<drac_boy>FLHerne no...the actual railmotor
16:55<drac_boy>they're the shorter 2-axle light capacity things
16:55<drac_boy>instead of the other one that hauls several small cars
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>that may all be true, but that doesn't mean it would be easier now to remove them
16:55<FLHerne>drac_boy: Oh, some kind of tram thing?
16:55<drac_boy>FLHerne duh .. I take it you never looked up HEQS? :)
16:55<drac_boy>just asking
16:55*FLHerne hasn't played with the more recent HEQS yet
16:55<andythenorth>oh you haven't lived
16:56<andythenorth>he who is tired of HEQS is tired of liff
16:56<FLHerne>drac_boy: I was thinking the rail version of 'Gmund-Mog' when you said 'railmotor' ;-)
16:56<Pikka>andythenorth, with no loop they go as far as they can before they get stuck
16:56<Pikka>seems like reasonable behaviour
16:56<FLHerne>I don't think the version I have has an actual thing called 'railmotor' :P
16:56<andythenorth>Pikka: definitely reasonable
16:56<Pikka>so you can keep that as part of the "tram-like" flag behaviour
16:56<drac_boy>FLHerne this is the older list but most of the trams are still there
16:57<Pikka>also, apply that flag to b-triples!
16:57<drac_boy>the railmotor I refer to are the must shortest one as you may notice
16:57<Pikka>so they're "tram like" but run on normal roads
16:57<FLHerne>drac_boy: Oh, I see. Small trams :D
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>how about freeform combination of road layers (by michi_cc's coolstuff thingie), and each roadtype gets a "layertype", like "road", "tram", "underground", "elevated", ... [like "cargoclass"], and no two roadbits of the same direction may have the same class?
16:57<Pikka>can't u-turn, get stuck if they hit a dead end :]
16:57<@peter1138>it would be possible to convert from independent road + tram to road/tram/roadtram types
16:57<drac_boy>flherne I always end up with a hundred of various trams in just about any games seriously
16:57<@peter1138>if it wasn't for that pesky 2nd owner
16:57*FLHerne could use them to deliver fruit into towns :D
16:58<andythenorth>who's the second owner on a road + tram + rail crossing?
16:58<andythenorth>out of interests
16:58<@peter1138>3 owners
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>so you could have a trail crossing a road, but they can't be along the same direction, because both would be in the "road" layer
16:58<drac_boy>flherne the funny thing is I've been thinking about asking about a small patch to HEQS for two particular cargos of mine but .. we'll see ... would be easier than trying to make new tram sprites all over again :)
16:58<FLHerne>andythenorth: And no, I haven't even got bored of the ancient HEQS version yet :P
16:59<@peter1138>there's space for 3 owners there cos you don't need roadbits
16:59<andythenorth>roads are common carrier?
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>diagonal crossings!
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>... i have a patch for that :p
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>(modulo drawing)
16:59<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Diagonal roads, too, while you're at it? :P
16:59<andythenorth>I tested it :P
16:59<andythenorth>I could have drawn stuff
16:59*FLHerne isn't serious
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: those are unpossible
17:00<andythenorth>all roads owned by deity?
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: like canals used to be?
17:00<drac_boy>flherne I think one of the big problem was the pathfinder being broken at trying to "see" the 2-tiles crossing
17:00<andythenorth>you want to modify a road, fill out a form, in triplicate
17:00<drac_boy>I could be wrong tho but I thought thats what I noticed on the forum
17:00<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Just rewrite the entire game to deunpossibleise it :P
17:00<andythenorth>deity will run consultation with other players
17:01*FLHerne *really* isn't serious
17:01<andythenorth>if players agree, road change is approved by deity planning committee :P
17:01<FLHerne>ArkRoyal: PM
17:02<Pikka>single owner, single layer roads ftw! :D
17:02<Pikka>it's simple for both devs and players!
17:02-!-chester_ [] has joined #openttd
17:03<Pikka>if some jerk is removing the tram tracks from the one tile of road he owns on your route, he sucks, stop playing with him!
17:03<andythenorth>you mean like those idiots who bulldoze rivers?
17:03<Pikka>(and it's not like people can't do similar things already, eg removing a piece of road and buying the tile)
17:03<andythenorth>and destory buses?
17:04<Pikka>they were silly buses anyway :)
17:04*andythenorth likes simple
17:04<frosch123>what about the guy who builds tram on all your roads to make you pay maintenance? :p
17:04<andythenorth>fits my brain
17:04<Pikka>stop playing with him too, frosch123
17:04<andythenorth>that guy is witty
17:04<andythenorth>he is amusingly trolling you
17:04<andythenorth>trolling is funny
17:04<andythenorth>there is an insufficiency of funny trolling in ttd
17:05<andythenorth>the depot AI train killing bug was one of the funnier things in TTD
17:05<Pikka>what about the guy who builds two truck stops near an industry you serve and just sends trucks back and forth between them, getting great station ratings and denying you any cargo? :)
17:05<andythenorth>or leaves a boat at SpComb's iron mine?
17:06<andythenorth>or takes over my company and builds 37 biplanes
17:07<andythenorth>what happened to my castle anyway?
17:07<Pikka>and what about the 99.9% of openttd players who either play only single player, or play with no grfs?
17:07<andythenorth>did I screenshot it?
17:07<Pikka>I have various savegames
17:07<Pikka>then we all updated our nightlies to play on the other server
17:07<andythenorth>I failed to screenshot :(
17:08<Pikka>the server was still up last night, 2011 or so
17:08<Pikka>but I couldn't be bothered downgrading to connect :)
17:08<@peter1138>oh yeah
17:08<@peter1138>i should probably upgrade it
17:08<andythenorth>huws winning?
17:08<andythenorth>and pikkarer
17:09<andythenorth>scuddles is winning at losing
17:09<andythenorth>my castle is gone :P
17:09<andythenorth>must be the passage of time
17:09<andythenorth>no castle lasts for ever
17:09<@peter1138>you removed it
17:09<andythenorth>who me?
17:09<andythenorth>shocking accusation
17:11<andythenorth>with roadtypes, I could have had better cannons
17:11<andythenorth>and barrage ballons on a tether
17:12<Pikka>pew pew
17:12<andythenorth>who will whine if trams go?
17:12<drac_boy>me because how do I move freights anymore?
17:12<@Terkhen>why do they need to go? :P
17:12<andythenorth>because cleaning away things is cathartic
17:12<andythenorth>and pleasing
17:13<Pikka>heqs and egrvts will be updated to the new spec within a week
17:13<andythenorth>the important people don't have tram sets, right?
17:13<Pikka>openttd will ship with a basic tram+road roadtype and all tram tracks in old games will be magically converted or something! :D
17:14<andythenorth>or exploded
17:14<Pikka>or perhaps just convert all tram tracks to roads
17:14<Pikka>since old trams won't have a roadtype, they'll run on normal roads just fine
17:14<andythenorth>opening message: trams are now banned, thank you for travelling with us
17:15<Pikka>afaia the requirement is that old savegames load, not that everything in old savegames still acts the same way? ;)
17:15<FLHerne>Pikka: What happens to these kinds of construction with one roadtype layer?
17:15<FLHerne>Especially the lower one is quite common in grid-like cities
17:15<Pikka>the bits which are road are road
17:16<andythenorth>503 happens
17:16<Pikka>the bits which are tramtrack + road are tramtrack&road
17:16<Pikka>the bits which are just tramtrack are just tramtrack
17:16<Pikka>I don't see the problem
17:16<FLHerne>Pikka: So it ends up with extraneous tramtrack graphics where a straight tramtrack crosses a road junction?
17:17<Pikka>no, it doesn't
17:17<andythenorth>and the bits which could tramtrack+trails+road+christmaslights+animateddogwalkingtrail+plinkyplonk are all fine
17:17<Pikka>but that's for the grf, not the spec
17:17<Pikka>the spec provides the necessary vars for the grf to make junctions look pretty
17:17<andythenorth>grf detects type on neighbouring tile, figures out what to do
17:17<andythenorth>if you mix too many types, that's idiocy
17:17<FLHerne>For example, if a straight tramtrack crosses a straight road at 90 degrees, it would display crossroad graphics for both road and rail?
17:17<Pikka>also, if you're worried about pretty looking junctions
17:17<FLHerne>Ah, ninjad :P
17:17<Pikka>why are you limiting your concern to tram tracks?
17:18<andythenorth>also, since when did anything fun ever get done in OpenTTD by listening to players?
17:18<Pikka>why not also be concerned about dirt tracks intersecting with highways? should there be a highway stub?
17:18<FLHerne>Pikka: Because I have a *lot* of them in my current game (and no overhead monorails because the two can't coexist yet) :P
17:18<andythenorth>it's not like there's a community approval process :P
17:18<andythenorth>if we want that, I'll pay for fucking getsatisfaction
17:18<andythenorth>or something
17:18<FLHerne>Pikka: I'd worry about the dirt roads if my games had any in ;-)
17:19<andythenorth>sweary, sorry
17:19<FLHerne>Although actually, a highway stub would probably look more sensible there :P
17:20<Pikka>FLHerne, and the reason your games don't have dirt roads is because some charlies are confusing the introduction of roadtypes by talking about crap like overhead monorails and subways
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17:20<FLHerne>Pikka: Even without the overhead monorails, I still care about trams. Trams are sensible :P
17:20<andythenorth>it's groundhog day
17:21<Pikka>and like I said, there's no issue with trams, so next.
17:21<andythenorth>which one of is doing the weather?
17:21<Pikka>prince charles, andythenorth
17:21<@Terkhen>trams are confusing sometimes :P
17:21<Pikka>single-owner single-layer roads will make them less confusing!
17:22<andythenorth>Pikka: can I connect to your road+tram tile?
17:22<Pikka>why not, andythenorth?
17:22<andythenorth>and run my trams on your tiles?
17:22<Pikka>of course you can
17:22<Pikka>as you can now
17:22<andythenorth>herp, I can do that now with tram track? :o
17:22<FLHerne> ?
17:23<andythenorth>does scuddles have trams :P
17:23<andythenorth>let's see
17:23<Pikka>what does this mean, FLHerne?
17:23<FLHerne>One roadtype-per-tile would turn the upper crossing into the lower?
17:24<andythenorth>ha ha
17:24<FLHerne>Unless you did checking for neighbours, in which case the parallel roads would break?
17:24<andythenorth>that's a great griefing opportunity
17:24<Pikka>logically it would turn the upper crossing into the lower
17:24<andythenorth>I can break scuddles tram routes trivially
17:24<Pikka>graphically, if you had a good grf, it would turn the lower crossing into the upper
17:24*andythenorth breaks scuddles tram routes
17:25<Pikka>the parallel roads would not break because the grf detection is not adding road bits
17:25<Pikka>it's simply deciding how to draw those road bits
17:25*FLHerne thinks about that for a moment
17:25<andythenorth>grief 1: simply extend the turn around loop to a non-turnaround loop; stuck trams
17:25<andythenorth>2: extend it miles out into the countryside
17:25<Pikka>it will not add connections that don't exist, FLHerne, it will simply decide how to draw those connections (as roads, tramtracks, both, needlenardlenoo)
17:25<Pikka>yes andy
17:26<andythenorth>3. build a tram, park it on other player's tracks
17:26<FLHerne>Ooh, clever :-)
17:26<FLHerne>That makes sense now :-)
17:26<Pikka>this is my point, we should not worry about the new spec being griefable because the current spec is no better
17:26<Pikka>and nor should it be
17:27<andythenorth>mostly only play with scuddles
17:27<andythenorth>solves griefing
17:28<@peter1138>what about a tram line cross two parallel roads!
17:28<andythenorth>scuddles griefs himself :
17:29<Pikka>then there will be a road connection, peter! oh noes!
17:29<andythenorth>write to your MP
17:30<Pikka>tai town halls D;
17:30<andythenorth>do politics
17:30<andythenorth>like simcity
17:30<andythenorth>best thing about simcity (on the SNES)
17:30<andythenorth>election time!
17:30<@peter1138>static inline RoadBits GetOtherRoadBits(TileIndex t, RoadType rt)
17:30<@peter1138>yeah that'll make sense
17:32<andythenorth>I'll start preparing these then ;)
17:34<FLHerne>Electric mining trucks? :o
17:34<@peter1138>ok, erm
17:34<@peter1138>it is actually possible to give road + trams second owners
17:35<Rubidium>but don't we need that space for CBH?
17:35<FLHerne>andythenorth: Your steam trams will look better, too :-)
17:35<Rubidium>like a level road crossing with road and tram on a bridge head: four owners per tile jackpot ;)
17:38<andythenorth>just give each player their own map array
17:38<andythenorth>one owner on every tile :P
17:43<Pikka>andythenorth: it would be good for RVs if the exhaust could come from somewhere other than the roof, too
17:43<Pikka>fine for big trucks, not so much for buses
17:43<andythenorth>gee, and do you want the moon on a stick too?
17:44<andythenorth>that's really a request too far
17:44<andythenorth>but where is moon? In TTD?
17:45<Pikka>up and to the right, innit
17:45<andythenorth>behind the sun?
17:45<andythenorth>bit weird
17:45<Pikka>unless you're MB
17:45<andythenorth>or TTRS
17:45<Pikka>or our george
17:45<Pikka>or anyone really
17:45<andythenorth>or opengfx
17:45<andythenorth>anyone who is wrong :P
17:46<andythenorth>some of FISH is still wrong
17:46<andythenorth>also frosch123 we had a sane discussion about newgrf effect vehicles recently o_O
17:47<frosch123>yeah, i even wrote a spec yesterday/today
17:47<frosch123>but it has some silly parts i don't like :p
17:48<andythenorth>delete them
17:48<frosch123>yeah, also my conclusion :p
17:48<frosch123>they are easy to implement whatever they may look like
17:48<andythenorth>rest of it is pretty good eh?
17:49<frosch123>so i can do the more interesting parts first
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17:49<andythenorth>roadtypes must be buildable on water!
17:49<andythenorth>how many tile bits is that?
17:49<frosch123>yeah, just extent railtypes to 256
17:50<frosch123>and make them cover road and water ways too :p
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17:52<@peter1138>256 railtypes? o_O
17:52<andythenorth>without that, how do we do wuppertal?
17:52<andythenorth>is wuppertal a tram? :P
17:53<FLHerne>andythenorth: Of course.:P I was going on about overhead monorails earlier, but that annoyed Pikka...
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17:54<frosch123>peter1138: ofc. i am sure someone wants a universal track type which can handle maglev, trolley busses and ships
17:54<frosch123>for easier transport type transitions in late game
17:54<frosch123>it's quite tedious to replace ship routes with maglev otherwise
17:55<@peter1138>trakc types now? heh
17:55<andythenorth>frosch123: you didn't even mention hovercraft :(
17:55<andythenorth>remember your hovercraft patch?
17:55<frosch123>sure :p
17:55<@peter1138>can they go up mountains
17:56<frosch123>hovercraft patch made all tiles traversable for ships
17:56<frosch123>but it crashed when ships entered house or industry tiles
17:56<andythenorth>valid IMO
17:56<frosch123>because gettileowner asserted or so
17:58<andythenorth>looked awesome :P
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18:02<andythenorth>hrm, sleepy times?
18:04<@peter1138>compiles up to r* so far :p
18:04<@Terkhen>good night
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18:39<@peter1138>Pikka, this can't be done
18:39<Pikka>why not?
18:40<@peter1138>because it basically rips out loads and loads of code
18:40<Pikka>which is bad?
18:40<@peter1138>someone had to write that
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18:40<Pikka>they'll get over it
18:41<@peter1138>/* Multiple owners */
18:42<@peter1138>/* One to rule them all */
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18:42<+glx>all your base are belong to us
18:43<Pikka>trams are mostly the fault of you, me and stevenh, aren't they peter?
18:45<@peter1138>not me
18:45<Pikka>who brought them in to openttd then?
18:49<@peter1138>i wish i knew
18:49<@peter1138>-Add: support for Action 0 Road vehicles, property 1C, bit 0.
18:53<@peter1138>putting too much work into something i don't believe in :p
18:53<+glx>oh you don't have a patch for that ? ;)
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19:11<Pikka>shamefur dispray
19:13<drac_boy>hi snail the french engineer :)
19:13<Snail>good evening :)
19:13<drac_boy>or do they call it 'driver'? I never remember :P
19:13<Snail>driver? I don't even own a car :p
19:16<drac_boy>no I mean in some places its called 'driver' instead of 'engineer'
19:16<drac_boy>I always forget which one is which place
19:16<Snail>never heard of that
19:18<drac_boy>how're you anyway?
19:18<Kitty>what things make a town grow ?
19:18<Snail>I'm fine
19:18<Kitty>and can I make a town grow faster by providing transport to it ?
19:18<Snail>finally it's the weekend :)
19:18<Snail> y
19:18<Snail>and you? (sorry, strange computer behavior)
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>Kitty: yes.
19:21<drac_boy>doing ok, had a bit big supper for myself tho :)
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>Kitty: any transport will do, doesn't have to be a particular cargo
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>Kitty: unless you're in desert or snow
19:22<FLHerne>Towns grow faster if they have more than 5 stations, don't they?
19:22*FLHerne finds that one quite annoying
19:22<+glx>a passenger network inside the town is good
19:22<Pikka>they grow faster for each station up to 5
19:23<FLHerne>Pikka: That sounds much saner :-)
19:25*FLHerne should probably shut up and sleep now
19:29<Kitty>I have 2 stations
19:29<Kitty>well, 5, but 4 of them are one station conceptually
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19:37<drac_boy>what doing now anyway snail?
19:39*peter1138 grumbles at special cases
19:41<Snail>another NG railcar... this one is a modern one
19:41<drac_boy>nice :p
19:46<Kitty>narrow gauge? Am guessing this isn't in openttd ?
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19:51<Snail>yes narrow gauge is in openttd :p
19:51<Snail>I'm actually building a set of all trains like that
19:51<drac_boy>snail funny is me
19:51<drac_boy>I don't call it narrow tho
19:52<Snail>guys, has any work done to make it possible to flip articulated trains?
19:52<Snail>some of my MUs are coded as articulated vehicles, so that they can carry both pax and mail
19:53<Snail>but they visually look like a one-piece unit (the 2nd part is coded as invisible)
19:53<Snail>so it would be nice if the graphics could still flip...
19:53<drac_boy>good question...I could use the same answer too
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19:54<drac_boy>espcially since I actually need to keep some part-cargo/part-passenger emus
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19:55<Snail>right, and some of my MUs are asymmetrical, can do push-pull (i.e. travel in reverse) but they can't flip in depots. So players might think this is weird
19:56<Pikka>snail: I have never encountered a situation where the player flipping vehicles manually is desirable :)
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19:56<Pikka>personally, I just make it so they can't flip anything
19:58<@planetmaker>+1 @ pikka
19:59<Snail>why? there are some asymmetrical MUs that could run on both directions, and players might want to flip them just to give them a different look
19:59<Snail>or tank steamers that could run cab-forward...
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19:59<Pikka>do it in the grf, then
20:00<V453000>or GEC91 from UKRS which is terribly broken by Shunting due to not being able to flip
20:00<drac_boy>heh snail....did I tell you that paris for some time had tank hauled commuter trains...and the engines always went in both directions equally a lot
20:00<drac_boy>anyway I'm going for a bit...have fun talking with others snail :p
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20:01<Pikka>the tank engines in UKRS2 run tender first, but I flip them in the grf rather than relying on the player knowing that flipping this loco might be fun
20:01<@planetmaker>he :D
20:01<@peter1138>i blame bjarni
20:01<Pikka>(I also decided in UKRS2 that fake-articulates to carry multiple cargos is a bad idea, but each to their own ;))
20:01<Snail>Pikka: yes I already do that in the grf (meaning that they just drive in reverse when they hit the end of the track)
20:02<Snail>but the players might still want to add more randomness themselves
20:02<Pikka>I blame peter1138
20:02<V453000>are you aware that GEC91 runs reversed if it doesnt have a) reversed counterpart on the train end, b) express wagons, or c) network without terminus stations ?
20:02<Snail>Pikka: why that? I thought there were some mixed pax/mail coaches in the UK
20:02<Pikka>are you talking about UKRS1, V453000?
20:02<V453000>of course
20:02<V453000>would have said 2 otherwise :>
20:03<Pikka>then I may or may not be aware of that, but I don't care.
20:03<@peter1138>old & unsupported innit
20:03<V453000>well thats not too nice :(
20:03<Supercheese>No love for subways-as-roadtypes :(
20:03<@peter1138>none at all
20:03<@peter1138>don't even think about it
20:03<Supercheese>sad panda
20:03<V453000>either way, I solve it all the way that I have automatic reversing at end of consist, but the player is able to flip any train as he likes
20:04<Pikka>it's only a graphical thing anyway V453000, and not even an "error" as such
20:04<V453000>no but for GEC91 it is like majorly graphical thing
20:05<@peter1138>fix it yourself?
20:05<@planetmaker>Supercheese, they don't need special treatment as road or rail type. They only need a different map array
20:05<@planetmaker>and different gui to access that :D
20:05<@planetmaker>yes. "only" ;-)
20:06<V453000>since when is UKRS under open license peter1138 ?
20:06<Supercheese>Long-term certainly, I was thinking more of an improved interim implementation, but I definitely understand the disagreement
20:06<Supercheese>and I coded a hac- I mean, grf that works well enough for my playstyle :P
20:07<V453000>also, when I use UKRS, I flip one GEC91 in old revision - you can clone it afterwards ... so the issue doesnt exactly touch me
20:07<@peter1138>what is the problem anyway?
20:08<V453000>clearly directional train facing the wrong end?
20:08<@peter1138>for pax?
20:08<V453000>I guess slab means the rear of the train
20:08<Pikka>you do know it has a cab in both ends, right V453000?
20:08<@peter1138>or for freight?
20:08<V453000>for freight
20:08<@peter1138>you do know
20:08<@peter1138>that that is how they were designed to run
20:08<V453000>even if there is cab in the rear, it looks beyond ugly
20:09<V453000>sure, then they should honestly have attach restrictions to pax only
20:09<@peter1138>it's not pax only
20:09<V453000>but as ukrs has only 2 other 200+kmh freight trains, while the GEC91 is clearly best, it tends to be an issue
20:10<Pikka>maybe you should consider UKRS2? :)
20:10<V453000>that is nice but UKRS is still better in some aspects and has its magic still
20:11<@peter1138>UKRS has nice features
20:11<V453000>I use nuts 99% of my games so I dont care much, but if you want any suggestion, fixing GEC91 would be great ;)
20:11<@peter1138>like making the class 91 run slab-end first with freight
20:11<V453000>yes that is an amazing feature peter
20:12<@peter1138>seriously, it's mean to do that
20:12<V453000>totally not ugly
20:12<V453000>how is a real train related to the game? :d
20:12<@peter1138>well it's a class 91 for a start
20:12<@peter1138>that's pretty related
20:12<Pikka>btw, in UKRS2 the 91 is limited to passenger trains or freightliners only. flips with freightliners, not with passenger trains :)
20:12<V453000>no thats not
20:13<@peter1138>how is a in-game representation of a real engine related to a real engine? well now
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>how is a computer game related to a real world game?
20:13<V453000>well I think this is getting to a point of really strange realism :) but whatever
20:14<@peter1138>it's ukrs
20:14<@peter1138>maybe you want NUTS
20:14<Pikka>I knew you were going to say that
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>what's that?
20:15<@peter1138>Top speed Design: 140 mph (225 km/h)
20:15<@peter1138>Service: 125 mph (201 km/h)
20:15<@peter1138>Blunt-end first: 110 mph (177 km/h)
20:15<@peter1138>see, it's even in the real specs
20:15<@peter1138>blunt end, not slab
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20:16<@peter1138>so yeah, don't fix what isn't broken eh
20:16<V453000>yeah it should even reduce speed when reversed :D
20:16<V453000>realism ftw
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>is that because of the higher wind resistance?
20:16<V453000>good night, this leads nowhere
20:16<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, yes
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>still, what's a norks?
20:16<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, norks
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>oh, these
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>they somehow don't teach us this stuff in school...
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20:18<Pikka>V453000, in UKRS2 the 91 even defaults to pointy-end-first on freight, so if you have no terminuses you won't see it run backwards
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>those should be in NUTS :p
20:19<Supercheese>Hmm, where's the accent key...
20:19<@peter1138>Pikka, it doesn't matter, you can't argue with V453000
20:19<Pikka>yes I can!
20:19<Supercheese>Errr, macron rather
20:19<@peter1138>i mean, it's your set, and you deliberately made it do that, and everything
20:19<@peter1138>but no, it's obviously broken
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>(with "Nüsse" being the german term for "nuts" [as in the things that squirrels collect])
20:19<@peter1138>arguing with V453000 results in a "i'm right stfu" from him :p
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>he should have named his set after Belugas :p
20:20<@peter1138>anyone coded a roadtype yet?
20:20<Pikka>just the one?
20:21<@peter1138>roadtype set then
20:21<Pikka>no, because there's no spec
20:21<@peter1138>make it up
20:21<@peter1138>make up a spec
20:21<@peter1138>sneak it into the wiki
20:21<Pikka>I already did!
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>plenty of tram replacement sets out there, just add a roadlabel :)
20:21<@peter1138>then ask us why it's not implemented yet
20:21<Pikka>I already did!
20:22<@peter1138>(and if you're mb make sure it won't work anyway)
20:22<Pikka>I thought that's what we've been talking about for the last however many hours :)
20:22<@peter1138>what randomaction2s?
20:23<Pikka> why isn't this implemented yet?
20:23<@peter1138>it's not on the newgrf-specs wiki!
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>it really doesn't say anything in the specs about triggers being only triggered if in the default chain (or CB1, which allegedly doesn't even exist)
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: it's not on MB's private fork of the newgrf specs wiki?
20:24<@peter1138>the specs also don't say that CB14 (and every other possible callback) will be executed during a trigger
20:24<@peter1138>actually it doesn't mention that triggers are "executed" at all
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20:24<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: the specs don't say anything about anything needing to be executed for a trigger
20:25<@peter1138>stands to reason though
20:25<@peter1138>"new cargo waiting" is clearly an event
20:25<@peter1138>"train arrives"...
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: make a BFS or DFS on the chains, ignoring all the conditions?
20:26<@peter1138>so that you can't do conditional rerandomisation? sure
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>or is there something like computed varaction2 target? :)
20:27<@peter1138>there is actually
20:28<@peter1138>oh, varaction2 target, no, don't think so
20:28<@peter1138>that's procedures, but they're linked at load time
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>btw, the object randomisation synchronisation thing, could that be done by implementing randomaction2 type 84 for <whatever>tiles, taking a two-dimensional parameter?
20:29<@peter1138>it's called for each tile
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes. randomaction2 type 84 for vehicles accesses randombits of other vehicles in the chain
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>so randomaction2 type 84 for *tiles could possibly access randombits of other nearby tiles
20:32<@peter1138>sounds awkward
20:33<@peter1138>you'd need massive chains to do anything
20:33<Eddi|zuHause>you can pass the value in register 0x100 if you need to compute the coordinates
20:34<Pikka>massive chains are awesome, peter1138!
20:34<@peter1138>you're probably just better off accessing the station's random bits
20:35<@peter1138>of course, no guarantee they something else didn't randomise them
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entirely sure what the actual problem was
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>so forget i said anything
20:38<@peter1138>4 bits is a bit feeble
20:38<@peter1138>but... 16 random variations ought to be plenty...
20:40<Pikka>in my experience, the problem with a small number of random bits tends to be when you want to have independent random chains
20:40<Pikka>eg, if you want to have a randomised version of a house/vehicle/whatever, and then on top of that you want a random colour, etc
20:41<Pikka>one runs out of bits very quickly doing that :)
20:41<@peter1138>vehicles shuld be ok
20:42<@peter1138>or is it still only 8 random bis
20:42<Pikka>I'm not saying it's a problem
20:42<@peter1138>"in my experience, the problem"
20:42<@peter1138>you're not? :D
20:42<Pikka>well, "the situation in which you tend to use up a lot of random bits" then
20:43<@peter1138>yeah, vehicles are 8 bits
20:43<@peter1138>that's easy to change
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>random bits cause problems if you want to have like 3 variations of equal chance
20:43<@peter1138>guess nobody requested it
20:43<Pikka>8 bits is plenty
20:43<Pikka>even for UKRS2 :)
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20:44<Eddi|zuHause>if the sum is not a power of 2
20:44<Eddi|zuHause>then the chances can't be equal
20:44<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, well, patchman
20:44<Pikka>the solution in that case is "deal wit it" eddi :)
20:45<Pikka>or stop being lazy and draw another variation ;)
20:45<Eddi|zuHause>i think in CETS i used something like 2:3:3 for 1st/2nd/3rd class carriage appearance
20:45<Pikka>sounds perfectly reasonable
20:45<Eddi|zuHause>but that needs 3 random bits instead of 2
20:48<@peter1138>-uint32 mask = (this->num_groups - 1) << this->lowest_randbit;
20:48<@peter1138>-byte index = (scope->GetRandomBits() & mask) >> this->lowest_randbit;
20:48<@peter1138>+byte index = (scope->GetRandomBits() >> this->lowest_randbit) % this->num_groups;
20:48<@peter1138>but hey
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20:50<Pikka>how handy
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>need curvy rails ;)
20:52<Supercheese>Curvy rails are easy. Curvy rails that never glitch... less so
20:53<Supercheese>Raw sprites that is, with no code to handle funky combinations
20:53<Supercheese>ergo, glitchy
20:53<@peter1138>wouldn't be glitchy at all
20:53<@peter1138>without code they're won't be shown :p
20:54<Supercheese>of course
20:55<@peter1138>Pikka, so when does ukrs2 get long wagons? :D
20:55<Pikka>the broken perspective annoys me too much
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>the only thing it needs to show is a railtype variable to query the railbits of current adjacent tiles
20:55<Pikka>eddi: sounds a bit like my roadtypes spec :)
20:56<Pikka>well, yes-ish
20:56<Pikka>I only want to query the road type, not the bits
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>but you're trying to offload things that the game should do onto the GRF
20:58<@peter1138>the game can't possibly do it
20:58<@peter1138>it would be a horrible mess of conditions
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>the catenary code already does this
20:59<Eddi|zuHause>(check adjacent trackbits for whether catenary should be shown)
20:59<@peter1138>trust me, it's different
21:00<@peter1138>where would it get the sprites from?
21:00<@peter1138>how would it know which to choose?
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21:05<@peter1138>hmm, 15 sprites needed just for all combinations of a flat road tile
21:06<@peter1138>+4 slopes
21:07<@peter1138>now to add adjacency checking...
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21:08<Pikka>good fun, eh peter? :)
21:08<Pikka>it's one of those things where you template and repeat, though. It looks more daunting than it is.
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21:09<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: the problem that is usually cited is that if you offload it onto the grf, you need excessive CPU power to resolve the sprites
21:10<@peter1138>could be up to 15 combinations of that
21:10<Eddi|zuHause>which means you need to cache something
21:10<Eddi|zuHause>which needs more map space
21:10<@peter1138>so you could need up to 285 sprites (some of which aren't used mind you)
21:10<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: why do you need these combinations?
21:11<Pikka>why does it need any more cpu time in grf than in ottd?
21:11<@peter1138>for checking adjacency
21:11<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: are you talking about the trams thing or the curvy rails?
21:11<Pikka>caching is good :)
21:11<Pikka>peter1138: I'll give it a go if you want it
21:12<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: if you keep the overlay and the underlay separate, you still need only 15 sprites times two
21:12<@peter1138>Pikka, over head of the sprite resolving state machine
21:12<@peter1138>what overlay?
21:12<@peter1138>base ground sprite + road overlay
21:13<Pikka>needs caching then, peter1138?
21:13<Eddi|zuHause>road = underlay, tram = overlay
21:13<@peter1138>but tram doesn't exist
21:13<Pikka>haven't we been here before? :D
21:14<Eddi|zuHause>or rather: "road": underlay = road surface, overlay = empty, "tram": unterlay = dirt/grass, overlay = rails, "road+tram" underlay = road surface, overlay = rails
21:14<Eddi|zuHause>for sprite drawing purposes
21:15<Eddi|zuHause>combining road and tram in one sprite is insane
21:15<drac_boy>seem so pikka
21:15<Pikka>oh hello
21:16<Pikka>no, it isn't eddi
21:16<Pikka>but we've already gone around this one 3 times today
21:17<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: we haven't talked about drawing yet
21:17<Eddi|zuHause>the whole discussion before was just about implementation and gameplay details
21:18<Eddi|zuHause>(at least from my side)
21:18<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, still wouldn't help anyway
21:18<Pikka>you draw the road sprite provided by the grf, done
21:18<@peter1138>1 ground sprite
21:18<@peter1138>19 road underlays
21:18<@peter1138>19 road overlays
21:18<@peter1138>that isn't going to work
21:19<@peter1138>well, probably not
21:19<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: well, i'm still against the one-layer-solution anyway :)
21:19<@peter1138>you'd need some way to have an index into the spriteset for the custom overlays
21:20<@peter1138>ah so you prefer two road types per tile
21:21<Eddi|zuHause>i'd actually prefer three, but... ;)
21:21<@peter1138>it's easy then cos you've got all the roadbits you need
21:21<@peter1138>why free?
21:21<@peter1138>why three?
21:21<@peter1138>also who's gonna pay for the storage space for that heh
21:22<Pikka>so, realistically, how much overhead are we talking?
21:22<Eddi|zuHause>imagine: road, tram, trolleybus. imagine trolleybus is "tram-like" and can run under tram catenary. if you want to connect a trolleybus to a tram line, you'd get excessive tram rails on that connection tile
21:22<@peter1138>Pikka, i really wouldn't like to be doing that for every road tile
21:22<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: nobody ever measured that, which is why the argument is disputed
21:24<@peter1138>it's like running a (simple) cpu on top of a cpu
21:24<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: or imagine a "elevated rail" or "subway" (hacky-)roadtype, then crossing one of these over a road+tram tile is difficult
21:24<@peter1138>elevated/subway can fuck off
21:24<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: also this makes road+tram over rail easier, just replace the third type with the rail, and you get a fully flexible tile
21:25<Pikka>fwiw, in my example, non-junction tiles go through 1 var2 (to determine they're not a junction), T junctions go through 4, and X junctions go through 5...
21:25<Pikka>here here peter1138
21:25<Pikka>also hear hear if you prefer
21:25<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: yes, that example is weak, but i think the other one is valid
21:25<@peter1138>just replace?
21:26<Pikka>you also won't need to do this for every roadtype, just ones which need fancy junctions (ie tramtracks)
21:26<Pikka>normal eg town roads will not need fancy junctions and so will not have any overhead
21:26<@peter1138>fully flexible tile
21:26<@peter1138>how fully flexible?
21:27<@peter1138>diagonal level crossings?
21:27<Eddi|zuHause>for example.
21:27<Eddi|zuHause>in theory you could also have rails-on-roads that way
21:27<@peter1138>okay so you now have a limit of 16 rail & road types together
21:27<Eddi|zuHause>with the roads having crossings
21:27<@peter1138>apparently 16 rail types wasn't enough, but now you get less
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21:28<Eddi|zuHause>what the how?
21:28<Eddi|zuHause>what are you talking about now?
21:28<Pikka>let's not do roadtypes until we can work out how to integrate road-on-rail, elevated monorails and real subways!
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21:28<@peter1138>hmm, so roads have 4 track bits, and rails have 6 track bits, so that's not going to fit
21:29<Eddi|zuHause>(you need another bit to say that this tile has rails on it)
21:30<@peter1138>or you extend level crossings and only permit 2 road types and 1 rail type
21:30<Eddi|zuHause>i think i squeezed the rails in 3 bits (disallowing switches) in my patch (which is mostly an updated version of some ancient patch i found somewhere)
21:30<@peter1138>because what you suggested is gonna need a hell of a lot of special casing for something funky
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21:30<Pikka>special casing needs to die
21:31<Eddi|zuHause>also rails need bits for the reservation
21:31<@peter1138>i think i'd rather leave all level crossings be perpendicular
21:32<Eddi|zuHause>it's certainly not that easy
21:32<Eddi|zuHause>i have the patch somewhere *dig*
21:33<@peter1138>btw, if you go with 1 road type, and use a combined road/tram type, you can get away with having more than 16 types
21:33<@peter1138>also you're right about overlays, that will be there
21:34<@peter1138>or not
21:34<@peter1138>thinkng about sprite sorting :S
21:34<@peter1138>1) groundsprite
21:34<@peter1138>2) road sprite
21:34<@peter1138>3) catenary... but... poles need to be sorted so that can't just be one sprite
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21:35<Pikka>catenary back, catenary front
21:35<Pikka>does it need splitting more than that?
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21:35<@peter1138>might be enough
21:35<@peter1138>in which case that's 4 sprites :S
21:36<Pikka>is that bad?
21:36<@peter1138>well it adds up, heh
21:36<Pikka>is that a problem? :)
21:37<Eddi|zuHause> <-- not entirely sure how complete that is
21:38<Eddi|zuHause> <- this should go to the media/extra_grf thingie
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21:39<Eddi|zuHause>but it's not actually used, because i couldn't figure out the drawing part of the old patch
21:39<Eddi|zuHause>(apparently that was by Maedhros)
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21:49<@peter1138>5911 :)
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21:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that was the revision i updated the patch from
21:53<Eddi|zuHause>and this part didn't fit anywhere, because of the railtypes and overlay stuff for level crossings
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21:58<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise i just ripped out the crossing-closing code and merged it with my adjacent crossings code, which is more flexible (and was the biggest problem with the old patch in MiniIN)
21:59<Eddi|zuHause>i think i reshuffled some code wrt the map bits
22:00<@peter1138>need that
22:02<Eddi|zuHause>i think i'll settle for sleep for now
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---Logclosed Sat Jan 05 00:00:46 2013