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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-01-05

---Logopened Sat Jan 05 00:00:46 2013
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02:25<andythenorth>@seen pokka
02:25<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pokka was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 22 hours, 7 minutes, and 1 second ago: <Pokka> no, it doesn't mean anything, Supercheese
02:25<andythenorth>@seen pikka
02:25<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 4 hours, 48 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <Pikka> is that a problem? :)
02:28<Rubidium>andythenorth: good morning... and you were a little over an hour too late ;)
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02:37<andythenorth>strikes me that the combinatorial hassle of drawing roadtypes could be handled at compile time
02:38<andythenorth>use a standard spritesheet
02:39<andythenorth>take each layer, knock out blue with PIL, composite, done
02:49<andythenorth>peter1138: ^
02:49<andythenorth>newgrf author can sort that out
02:50<andythenorth>probly worth making a standard spritesheet, but I'll wait for pokka to show up :P
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05:10<andythenorth>how do we feel about industry types specfying number of instances to be on the map, rather than probability?
05:12<andythenorth>scaled for map size
05:12<andythenorth>with some random factor
05:13<Zuu>How does that work with GSes?
05:13<Zuu>Can a GS build an industry even if the max limit is reached?
05:14<Zuu>Oh, and can a player fund an industry beyond the limit?
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05:14<andythenorth>Zuu: yes to all three afaict
05:15<andythenorth>this is only to be used by map gen / in-game industry generator
05:15<andythenorth>there are already cbs for handling the other cases properly
05:15<Zuu>And then as industries close it will fall down to the "max" level.
05:16<Zuu>A problem might be that in some economy there might an incresing demand for some type of industry. Though, that perhaps should be handeled at GS side?
05:18<andythenorth>certainly openttd can't handle that for a specific newgrf, or at least not blind
05:18<andythenorth>GS could handle, but then GS is blind too...
05:19<Zuu>I just got the idea of a GS. Ask the player to create a map with zero industries. THen the GS create one of each industry. when usage of an industry goes over some limit, a new industry of that type is built.
05:20<Zuu>If it want to be even more advanced it could try to analyze the cargo chains to see if there are parallell chains.
05:20<Zuu>Eg. don't build a new farm if there is a unused copper mine (in temperate, default industries)
05:21<Zuu>The idea is that one could see transported cargo in the game as the demand.
05:23<Zuu>But clearly, the GS will not be able to skip some industries in the early years and then later introduce them without doing that blindly.
05:24<Zuu>It have access to the cargo chain graph, so it could eg. skip industries of FIRS at higher level during some years for example. Although that means that you will not get any supplies.
05:24<andythenorth>it would if it knew the industry newgrf :P
05:24<@Terkhen>good morning
05:25<andythenorth>I am quite interested in providing a compatibility [something] between FIRS and GS
05:25<andythenorth>lo Terkhen
05:26<Zuu>andythenorth: You could introduce a NewGRF -> GS communication channel by creating an engine that never get buildable (if possible), and use some stats parameter to communicate eg. your identity to the GS.
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05:27<Zuu>It might also be possible to create some sort of signature based on stas from multiple engines/industries etc. that would probably work quite well. Although that would bypass the whole idea that GSes should be allowed to adopt via the API to any NewGRF etc. without specific code for each NewGRF.
05:28<andythenorth>I think that idea is limiting
05:29<andythenorth>otoh, binding too tightly to say one specific rev of FIRS - unmaintainable
05:29<@Terkhen>when is FIRS going to become "stable" WRT industries and cargos? :P
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05:31<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01 and Celestar :)
05:31<@Celestar>heya peops :)
05:31<Wolf01>sir Celestar, nice to meet you :)
05:31<@Celestar>yo wolf, how ya doing?
05:32<Wolf01>just sleeping and hunting as always
05:33<andythenorth>Terkhen: it will never become stable from a GS point of view
05:33<andythenorth>because of parameters and economies
05:33<andythenorth>can't rely on specific behaviour
05:33<@Terkhen>thought so, my question was about cargo support by other NewGRFs
05:34<andythenorth>it's about as stable now as it will ever be
05:34<andythenorth>draw your own conclusion :)
05:34<@Terkhen>but even with regard to GS, once that existing economies become "stable" the only additions in principle could just be new economies
05:35<andythenorth>but you don't know which one the player has active
05:35<@Terkhen>and now I also wonder if OpenGFX+ Industries is nasty for GS too, with its customizable chains :P
05:35<andythenorth>and chains might be quite different
05:35<@Terkhen>you don't?
05:35<@Terkhen>that complicates things
05:36<andythenorth>I do think it's correct to not allow tightly binding GS to newgrf
05:36<andythenorth>the issue is that we have no abstraction layer for this
05:36<andythenorth>industry <-> cargo <-> vehicles is handled by labels, classes and CTT
05:36<andythenorth>rather well now, despite occasional gripes
05:37<Zuu>Terkhen: They can be nasty to Neighbours are important. Because it still uses a hard coded set of town effects per climate. I haven't got around to even think about making it more dynamic untill FLHerne told me about an issue due to this.
05:37<Zuu>A more propper way would be to resolve which town effects that have at least one cargo (which can be produced)
05:38<@Terkhen>Zuu: I see... and you can't deduce the active industries by looking at the active cargos with OpenGFX+ Industries either; there are chain changes that do not alter the active cargos (such as the sawmill or forest as wood producing industry change)
05:38<@Terkhen>the scenario format is going to need an abstraction scheme for industries anyways
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05:39<@Terkhen>maybe it could be possible to introduce a single format that can be used by both GS and the new scenarios
05:39<andythenorth>we might already have it...
05:39<@Terkhen>but our usual discussions about that topic did not reach a clear conclusion IIRC
05:39<@Terkhen>which one? :O
05:39<andythenorth>industry type (primary, secondary etc)
05:39<andythenorth>extractive, organic
05:39<@Terkhen>well, that's better than nothing I guess :P
05:40<Zuu>I don't exactly follow what you want, but it might be useful.
05:40<@Terkhen>WRT the scenario format, I guess that you could define "primary organic industry at X, Y"
05:40<andythenorth>we could do the equivalent of a CTT
05:40<@Celestar>eh. good to see that fonso is still working on cd :D
05:40<@Terkhen>and OpenTTD would cycle through all the available industries that match and create one of them there if the NewGRF restrictions allow it
05:40<Zuu>Another thing that the scenario format might provide is a set of strings with some english text identifier that the GS can iterate over and use in GUIs.
05:41<@Terkhen>the scenario format is only used for map generation
05:41<Zuu>For example a scenario in the secnario format may provide a set of texts to use as an introduction text for players. A generic GS can then find this text and display it.
05:41<@Terkhen>hmm... that's interesting :P
05:42<Zuu>It could be done with signs though, but tedious for longer texts and no support for translations.
05:42<andythenorth>Terkhen: how much data can the scenario format encode for a specific tile?
05:42<@Terkhen>andythenorth: there are no limits
05:42<@Terkhen>each data is stored in a different layer
05:42<andythenorth>so you might, for example, specify a list of cargo labels for a tile
05:42<andythenorth>in order
05:42<@Terkhen>and industries are stored in a ini-like file
05:43<andythenorth>and openttd would try and build industries producing those cargos
05:43<andythenorth>or accepting
05:43<andythenorth>that's about as much control as is justified imho
05:43<Zuu>I still wonder when *someone* will create a generic Scenario Toolbox GS. Which have a set of triggers and a set of actions and uses signs + GS config to configure scenarios. That would enable people without knowledge about programming to create some more dynamic scenarios.
05:44<@Terkhen>andythenorth: <-- something on the lines of this
05:44<andythenorth>dunno if that's useful
05:44<andythenorth>seems kind of neat though
05:44<@Terkhen>Zuu: what would those triggers do?
05:45<Zuu>For shorter instructions, signs should work well. They can hold up to 32 chars and can easily be removed by the GS before the player sees it by just storing their position + content in memory and remove all signs during the 2500 ticks setup.
05:45<@Terkhen>andythenorth: IIRC our conclusion last time was to "define how the original industry worked and make a magical function in OpenTTD that finds the most similar industry"
05:46<@Terkhen>that would work perfectly fine if you use the same NewGRF that originated the scenario in the first time, and would give poor results (as expected) with other NewGRFs
05:46<Zuu>Terkhen: A trigger would be a condition. Eg Year=1987
05:46<andythenorth>Terkhen so find the best fit over action 0 properties or something?
05:46<@Terkhen>Zuu: so the scenario would define triggers by an specific ID, and the GS would be able to check that trigger to see when it should do a certain thing?
05:47<Zuu>I also think that it might be useful to allow placing label signs which can be used by other signs to refer to locations of the map.
05:47<@Terkhen>andythenorth: yes, that should be simpler
05:47<Zuu>So that you can refer to a town/industry without knowing their internal ID.
05:47<Zuu>(but limits to towns/industries that exist when the scenario is created)
05:47<Zuu>Terkhen: Yes
05:48<@Terkhen>with regard to the ini format used in the scenario format for stuff that is not defined in most tiles (those use image layers) defining a "trigger object file" would be trivial
05:48<@Terkhen>I have no idea about OpenTTD's implementation of those, though :P
05:48<Zuu>I also think that the scenario author should be able to choose from a set of actions to bind togeather with the triggers.
05:49<Zuu>From my understanding this (my scenario toolbox GS idea) is already possible to implement as a GS.
05:50<Zuu>Both Split and the Beginner Tutorial use a library called TileLabels which allow me to define named locations in the .scn by placing signs with $L=name, and then refer to "name" to query for that location.
05:51<Zuu>The library takes care of reading all these signs into memory so that the player never sees them. It also helps saving/loading the named locations into save games.
05:51<@Terkhen>I am a bit lost because I don't know much about AI/Script coding (OpenTTD or not), but if you can represent what you want in a human readable text file, it should not present many problems from a scenario format point of view
05:52<@Terkhen>you could have a GS layer that defines those
05:52<@Terkhen>labels for points, labels for towns, labels for industries and triggers
05:53<@Terkhen>the loading code is easy, but I don't know if OpenTTD should or could write those when you generate a scenario
05:53<@Alberth>just named positions would be enough like "name = (17, 31)" or "name = (45%, 78%)"
05:53<@Alberth>hmm, no idea what the format does with size of the map
05:56<Zuu>I don't know if we want additional location based signs to those we already have. What we might want to add (both in vanilia OpenTTD and the secenario format) is longer texts that are not location based. Eg. for the author of a scenario to include a mission description inside the scenario. (In some cases he/she will use a full-blown mission-specific GS and can then leave all that up to the GS. In other cases the GS will not work (well) with rando
05:56<Zuu>m games, but need the scenario athuor to set things up. In the later case the scenario author might want to customize the welcome message or some news message shown by some date etc.)
05:59<@Alberth>some meta-text may be useful, I agree :)
05:59<@Terkhen>it is planned (although not for the first implementation of the format) to add a langs folder with language files, for stuff such as the scenario name and description
06:00<Zuu>What will have use for some industry abstraction might be when you want to have a action to build industry X. How do you as the scenario author know (or specify) the internal ID of the industry that you want to build?
06:00<@Terkhen>you could add more strings to those files that can be used by GS, but then the scenarios would not be "cleanly generated" anymore
06:00<andythenorth>using the scenario format to put GS controls on the map makes total sense to me
06:01<@Terkhen>what I mean is that you would need to either store those strings "somewhere" in the generated map (if I understand the current situation correctly, all those strings are extracted from NewGRFs, scripts and so on on load)
06:01<@Terkhen>or to keep the "new scenario" from which the map was generated around to get those strings on load
06:01<@Terkhen>but it would not be a "generate and forget" situation anymore
06:01<Zuu>The GS strings are to my undestanding stored in the savegame to allow network clients to show translated strings without having the GS locally.
06:01<@Alberth>andythenorth: probability is nearly equivalent to number of instances when you state the total number of industries
06:02<@Terkhen>sorry if I'm playing the devil's advocate here, I like the idea a lot too :)
06:02<@Terkhen>Zuu: then the scenario format strings could use the same mechanism, yes :)
06:02<Zuu>The String parameter evaluating code actually contain a parameter for if it tries to decode a game script string or not.
06:03<@Alberth>andythenorth: on my last attempt I tried to get the latter from a NewGRF with a generic cb, but failed :(
06:03<@Alberth>tbh, I like some variation in the precise number of instances of each type
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06:13<andythenorth>Alberth: random factor :P
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06:13<@Alberth>so you go back to probability of instances :p
06:14<andythenorth>+/-1 multiplied by map scaling factor
06:14<@Alberth>or do you want to move the random sampling into the NewGRF?
06:14<@peter1138>compile errors in clang are noisy
06:14<andythenorth>random sampling could be in openttd, or newgrf
06:14<andythenorth>don't mind
06:14<andythenorth>I'm trying to make my life easy as a coder
06:14<andythenorth>alternative suggestion, I do this at compile time with python
06:15<andythenorth>means walking all the industries every time for every economy
06:15<@Alberth>1/2 a second? :)
06:17<andythenorth>trying to work out the maths
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06:17<andythenorth>so I want 5 hotels, 4 coal mines, 6 petrol stations on the map
06:17<andythenorth>15 in total
06:17<andythenorth>can't control the total :P
06:18<@Celestar>yo peter1138 :D :D
06:18<andythenorth>two problems actually
06:18<andythenorth>1) can't control number of industries (do I care?)
06:18<SpComb>peter1138: make 2> /dev/dsp
06:18<andythenorth>2) every time an industry type is added / removed, probability has to be recalculated for all others
06:18<andythenorth>2 is a problem for authoring economies :P
06:19<@peter1138>Celestar! :D
06:19<@peter1138>SpComb, yeah but i need them else i won't know to fix
06:19<@Celestar>how dyou do?
06:20<@peter1138>badly, i'm coding using the method of "fix errors as they come" instead of "planning"
06:20<@peter1138>nah, pretty well, how's you?
06:20<@Celestar>good good :)
06:20<@Alberth>andythenorth: have some sort of graph that states desired number of industries of the types over time, and derive the probabilities from that (not sure how to do that exactly)
06:20<@Celestar>I just don't code outside of work anymore :P
06:21<@Celestar>Maybe because I have to do enterprise-java shit at the moment and it makes me wanna puke
06:22<@Celestar>otoh, that would be a reason to do some real coding again
06:22<@Alberth>and a bit of low-level bit-coding in C++ wouldn't make you happy again?
06:22<@Celestar>I think it might :)
06:22<andythenorth>Alberth: more fine control than I want; think industry over time is a GS thing?
06:22<@Alberth>it does for me, at least (doing Java too, but luckily no enterprise stuff)
06:23<andythenorth>also, probability cb would already allow time-based control ;)
06:23<@peter1138>Celestar, i know a small project you could do
06:23<@peter1138>custom bridge heads ;)
06:23<@Celestar>you got a point there
06:23<@peter1138>fcvo small
06:24<@peter1138>it was only small back in rprehistoric
06:24<@peter1138>for certain values of
06:24<@Alberth>andythenorth: you probably won't get that much control, I was seeing it as a better way to specify your economy
06:24<@Alberth>ie let Python do the complicated math stuff
06:24<@Celestar>I am not sure I still recognize the code :P
06:24<SpComb>I'm busy separating mechanism and policy myself
06:25<andythenorth>ah :) 'Economy' is more of an action 6/7/9 whatever it's called :P (turn industries on or off in game)
06:25<andythenorth>otherwise they appear in minimap etc
06:25<andythenorth>that was a bad idea I had
06:26<@Alberth>but you caught it in time :)
06:26<andythenorth>enable types to be disabled / enabled during gameplay
06:26<andythenorth>bad bad bad andythenorth
06:26<SpComb>although trouble is that once you start implementing the policy, you end up having to separate that into mechaism and policy as well
06:27<SpComb>and then you get all confused because your policy-policy that you have to implement in your policy-mechanism isn't defined well enough
06:27<andythenorth>the only question for policy
06:27<andythenorth>is how far you deviate from it :P
06:27<SpComb>and then once you've spent a week writing python, you realize that you could do the same thing in ten lines of shellscript
06:27<andythenorth>in practice
06:27*Rubidium waves to Celestar
06:27<andythenorth>SpComb you must be doing devops :O
06:28<SpComb>the concrete thing I'm doing is syslog -> irc
06:29<SpComb>I'm smart enough to separate it into syslog-ng, a python script, and irker (or similar)
06:29<@Celestar>hey Rubidium :D
06:29<SpComb>but now I need to figure out what kind of config file the python script should use to regexp the syslogs
06:31<@Alberth>INI format :)
06:32<SpComb>however, there are multiple syslog hosts, facilities and programs, and possibly multiple irker targets (irc channels)
06:32<@Alberth>oh, you're making your life complicated :p
06:32<SpComb>e.g. some hosts should show all ssh logins, others should ignore some sudo commands, etc
06:33<SpComb>Alberth: no, I'm separating mechanism and policy \o/
06:33<andythenorth>does FISH separate policy and mechanism?
06:33<andythenorth>also where is frosch?
06:33<andythenorth>he usually turns up when needed :P
06:33<@Alberth>one cfg file for each irc channel, with a [enable] and a [disable] section with named REs ?
06:33<@Alberth>you don't need him, apparently :p
06:34<andythenorth>well views need him ;)
06:34<andythenorth>and FISH needs views
06:34<SpComb>Alberth: and copy-paste everything across them? D:
06:35<@Celestar>Rubidium: how is life treating you
06:36<andythenorth>SpComb: explicit is better
06:37<andythenorth>here's a nice idea
06:37<andythenorth>template your ini files?
06:37<andythenorth>keep the definitions in classes?
06:37<andythenorth>and write them out?
06:38<SpComb>observe the nested sections that filter on matched fields in the parent rule \o/
06:38<andythenorth>so keep them in classes, use inheritance (multiply if needed)
06:38<andythenorth>you could also add interfaces :P
06:38<SpComb>inheritance is evil
06:38<andythenorth>write out the ini files at compile time
06:39<andythenorth>my idea is definitely *not* smoking crack :P
06:44<andythenorth>herp, the way I described is actually how FISH and BANDIT are constructed :P
06:44<andythenorth>classes in python web cms -> ini file -> python build framework
06:44<andythenorth>draw your own conclusion about my mental state :P
06:51<Rubidium>Celestar: life's good, but for some reason I haven't got a huge drive to do OpenTTD stuff in the last time :(
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06:51<Rubidium>oh... typical!
06:51<Rubidium>that's how it's supposed to be
06:52<Rubidium>brings back memories
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06:53<andythenorth>there he is
06:55<frosch123>moin :)
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06:58<andythenorth>herp views
06:59<andythenorth>frosch123: any more ideas ^
06:59*andythenorth is considering redesigning FISH
06:59<andythenorth>and BANDIT
06:59<frosch123>i wanted to write a spec two weeks ago :)
06:59<andythenorth>maybe HEQS too :P
06:59<andythenorth>frosch123: what blocked you? :)
07:03<frosch123>"I'm so excited I even looked up the bbcode for numbered list" :)
07:05<andythenorth>I woke up in a funny mood today :P
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07:05<andythenorth>that trolling post found some troll bait
07:05<andythenorth>I wish we had more TrueBrain
07:05<andythenorth>he writes funny posts :P
07:06<Flygon>I should post
07:06<Flygon>I'd be the Forum Cloun!
07:06<Flygon>Or the forum English fail
07:06<@Alberth>both are good for some laughs :p
07:06*andythenorth considers a petition
07:06<andythenorth>for the return of DaleStan
07:09<@peter1138>uh oh
07:09<@peter1138>what's he up to these days anyway?
07:10<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I am not sure if it is a compliment or not, but tnx :P
07:14<andythenorth>compliment ;)
07:15<andythenorth>bridge weight limits would enhance gameplay no?
07:15<andythenorth>and axle loadings :P
07:16<andythenorth>answer was 'no'
07:17<frosch123>how about bridge height and low bridges?
07:17<andythenorth>definitely more fine-grained realism :)
07:18<andythenorth>more of that
07:18<andythenorth>friction co-efficient of different road surface types?
07:18<frosch123>more realistic road accidents :)
07:18<frosch123>you do not have to send a train on a crossing
07:18<frosch123>you can just build a low bridge
07:18<frosch123>and every bus drives into it
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07:20<frosch123>isn't it 4 am at your side?
07:20<drac_boy>nope..past 7
07:20<frosch123>so, not .ca :)
07:21<@planetmaker>East coast?
07:21<@planetmaker>good morning everyone :-)
07:21<frosch123>morning pm :)
07:23<drac_boy>frosch yes it is .ca
07:23<Rubidium>frosch123: it's anywhere between 04:23 and 08:53 in Canada
07:23<drac_boy>canada goes all way from east to west sides of the north america land silly :)
07:24<frosch123>omg... why did i consider .ca as california?
07:24<andythenorth>me too
07:24<@Alberth>it's sunnier there? :)
07:26<andythenorth>if I know the number of industries in 'main' FIRS economy (I do), I can use that as a scaling factor for probability in other economies
07:26<andythenorth>now I just need to outsource the maths :P
07:28<Rubidium>so... you consider California as a country?
07:28<andythenorth>almost is
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07:31<drac_boy>its a state :p
07:31<frosch123>oh, there is a ".name" domain... never heard of that one
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07:31<andythenorth>someone on the interwebs is being wrong again
07:32<andythenorth>should I correct them?
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07:34<@Alberth>better disconnect all bad people from your internets
07:34<andythenorth>I'm trying to drive them away :P
07:34<andythenorth>not working
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07:36<@planetmaker>heia Celestar
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07:36<@Alberth>Celestar: you missed an answer from Rb:
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07:38<Celestar>Alberth: ta
07:38<Celestar>Rubidium: lol :)
07:39<Celestar>yo planetmaker
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07:46<andythenorth>roadtype: plank road!
07:51<frosch123>"I thought I have listed all possibilities..."
07:52<frosch123>well, maybe road should be build in 3 parts
07:52<frosch123>road, tram, catenary
07:53<@planetmaker>hm :-) People will find cases where it doesn't suffice
07:53<@planetmaker>I couldn't care less ;-)
07:53<@planetmaker>(about those edge-cases)
07:53<frosch123>town owned road, company owned catenary
07:56<@planetmaker>and 2nd-company-owned tracks?
07:58<Celestar>why would you own a catenary if you don't have tracks? :P
07:58<frosch123>trolley bus
07:58<@planetmaker>trolley bus
07:59<frosch123>anyway, this issue already annoy me about railtypes. if there are 8 railtypes and 8 railtypes which are exactly the same as the first 8 but with catenary... there is something wrong
07:59<frosch123>again the same with road types: 8 road types, same 8 plus catenary
07:59<frosch123>that is just as stupid as cargo subtypes for number of wagons :)
07:59<Celestar>2 catenarties then!! :D
07:59<@planetmaker>agreed, frosch123 :-)
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>so back to 3 layers, but this time not "freeform" but "road", "(tram-)rail", "catenary"?
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>but you need to build the tram layer and the catenary layer at the same time...
08:01<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, why?
08:01<@planetmaker>and yes, could be done by a check-box type thing in the tram build menu
08:01<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: call the third one "power-supply" :)
08:01<frosch123>then it can be "none", "catenary", "3rd rail" "3rd rail + catenary" :p
08:01<@planetmaker>which, incidentially, could also be extended to rail :D
08:02<Celestar>3rd rail for trams?
08:02<@planetmaker>yes. e.g. in bordeaux
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>most metrorail systems are legally operated as trams
08:02<Celestar>innit that a little dangerous
08:02<Celestar>yeah, point
08:02<@planetmaker>nope. Only active when train over it. Outside downtown they use pantograph
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. Hamburg (Hochbahn) or Berlin (U-Bahn)
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08:04<andythenorth>frosch123: I think it's fine that route type + power are combined
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>some random thought i had: tram speed limit different if on-road and off-road
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>(or maybe if both road and tram have a speedlimit, take the lowest one)
08:04*andythenorth had a thought
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: newgrf roadstations [with animation]
08:10<andythenorth>sometimes I think newgrf roadstops might be nice
08:10<andythenorth>probably not the biggest deal though
08:11<@peter1138>sometimes i think starting from scratch might be nice
08:11<andythenorth>aren't roadtypes either 'powered' or 'not'
08:11<andythenorth>in fact, they're not even powered
08:11<andythenorth>either they're compatible, or not
08:11<andythenorth>it's that simple
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's not
08:12<@planetmaker>keeping a tram and a road "roadtype" might be nice. Unless we merge train an tram. But that's even more bear-trapped path, I fear
08:13<@peter1138>yeah well, trams have been coded as road vehicles :-(
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>one tile could be "road with catenary" plus "tram without catenary", and the other could be "road without catenary" plus "tram with catenary"
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>now figure out which vehicle can travel on it?
08:13<@peter1138>kinda right cos they're usually on roads
08:14<@peter1138>okay so
08:14<@peter1138>road + tram + a catenary-bit
08:14<@peter1138>same for rails
08:14<@peter1138>rail + a catenary-bit
08:14<andythenorth>erp, I like one type per tile :P
08:14<andythenorth>but eh
08:14<@peter1138>which goes all the way back to elrails
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: that fails once you consider multi-voltage [dutch set] or 3rd rail
08:15<@peter1138>not a problem with 3rd rail
08:15<@peter1138>3rd rail isn't in the sky
08:15<@peter1138>it's all horrible and i give up
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>plus there's currently no sane way to draw the 3rd rail
08:16<andythenorth>plus, it's teeny tiny
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>can't include it in the rail sprite, because it would overlap on switches
08:16<andythenorth>plus, does it matter?
08:16<@peter1138>pikka's managed pretty well
08:16<@planetmaker>drawing catenary separately is done anyway. Thus separating that is at least not a graphical issue
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08:16<andythenorth>plus, eh, what does it do for gameplay?
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>can't include it in the base sprite because that is drawn in places which have no rails
08:16<@planetmaker>3rd-rail... is integrated somehow in the tracks
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>can't make left/right variation [similar to catenary]
08:16<@peter1138>3rd rail is part of the track indeed
08:16<@peter1138>so i dunno what eddi is talking about
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: switches are combined by overlapping rail sprites. if the 3rd rail is hardcoded into the track sprite, the 3rd rail would cross a track
08:17<andythenorth>it probably does
08:17<@peter1138>it works for pikka's 3rd rail
08:18<andythenorth>hrm, yes, he's figured it out
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what pikka's rail does, but the one i've seen around was encoded into the trackbase, which occasionally places 3rd rail in places which have no trackbit
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08:19<@peter1138>if it's not pikka's i don't really care ;)
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>because on 2-way-switches, the 3rd trackbit is not placed, but has a trackbase underneath it
08:19<@peter1138>anyway i think pikka requested that he be allowed to draw points himself, and not have the game combine them
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the point is, it's not enough (tm)
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>that could possibly be a property of the railtype. the spriteset would have to be bigger (2^6 sprites for base and track)
08:21<@peter1138>not quite
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>either let the game combine crossings, or provide all crossing sprites manually
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>well yes ;)
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>and then add double tracks on one tile :p
08:22<@peter1138>shut up
08:28<andythenorth>spec paralysis
08:28<andythenorth>or as I was told once, you can own 100% of a £5m company, or 10% of a £100m company
08:29<andythenorth>[that is a variation on the usual version, which has 100% of £0]
08:29<andythenorth>one of those two options involves a lot more crap than the others
08:30<andythenorth>and really once, you've got £5m, do you care about getting £10m?
08:31<andythenorth>especially given all the crap involved
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>apparently there are people that do
08:31<andythenorth>for those that miss the point of this little homily
08:32<andythenorth>newgrf roadtypes > no newgrf roadtypes
08:33<andythenorth>if you don't like what your newgrf author does with it, fire them :P
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08:56<Flygon>Was Naples a Japanese city?
08:57<Rubidium>why would you think that?
08:58<@peter1138>you might if you didn't know it's in italy
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>maybe there's another naples in japan? do you really know all cities in japan? :p
08:59<Rubidium>isn't naples in Florida?
08:59<Rubidium>there's a Napoli in Italy
09:00<@peter1138>yeah, it's awkward that we "translate" names :S
09:02<Rubidium>anyhow... they don't really have a L
09:02<Rubidium>so it'd rather be napori
09:02<Flygon>Rubidium: I'm playing Civilization II
09:02<Flygon>I suspect I ran out of Japanese city names
09:03<Celestar>after the national cities run out, Civ2 starts with Roman cities (except Rome) :P
09:04<Flygon>That explains a lot
09:05<Flygon>Yeah, Naples is the second city, isn't it?
09:05<Flygon>Whites are Russians atm
09:05<Celestar>yah it is
09:05<Celestar>never liked II too much
09:05<Flygon>I love II
09:05<Flygon>SMAC/X is better, though
09:06<Celestar>IV was pretty good
09:07<Flygon>Shame Civ II can't be ported to SMACX
09:07<Flygon>Oh, SMAC
09:07<Flygon>Alpha Centauri
09:07<Flygon>The 'direct' sequel to Civ II
09:07<Celestar>haven't tried CIV 5 yet.
09:07<Flygon>I've not played IV and V yet
09:07<Flygon>Mainly from laziness
09:07<Flygon>Took me years to get addicted to OpenTTD
09:08<Flygon>Now I churn raging profit :P
09:08<Celestar>IV was the first one I found better than CIV. way better, especially with BTS expansion
09:08<Celestar>you got Steam?
09:08<Flygon>I do
09:09<Celestar>Civ IV is currently up for -75% including all Xpacs.
09:09<Flygon>I'm also broke :p
09:09<Celestar>7 EUR or so :P
09:09<Flygon>I can't afford the 7EUR x.x
09:09<Celestar>heh :D
09:09<Flygon>I recommend trying out SMACX :3
09:09<Flygon>Assuming you're familar enough with II
09:09<Flygon>It's basically a turbocharged version of that
09:09<Rubidium>Celestar: CIV, is the Civ (I) or Civ IV?
09:10<Flygon>Heck, it has a few features that future Civs tended to lack
09:10<Flygon>Such as 3D heightmaps (like OpenTTD)
09:10<Flygon>Except it's actually rendered in 3D :D
09:11<Celestar>CIV .. CIV is CIV I
09:11<Flygon>It's sorta hilarious SMACX was 100% 3D, but Civ III was not at all 3D :P
09:11<Celestar>I only played Alpha Centrauri
09:11<Celestar>minus the r
09:12<Flygon>Ah, not with the expansion pack?
09:12<Flygon>The pack adds a lot
09:12<Celestar>I just found a disk image of RRTD :D
09:12<Flygon>Though, the inclusion of a Borg inspired faction rose a few eyebrows :p
09:12<@Terkhen>I can recommend Civilization IV too, as long as it is the complete edition and you are not afraid of testing mods :P
09:12<Celestar>Terkhen: or write your own :D
09:13<Celestar>Terkhen: BTS was the last XPac I purchased
09:13<@Terkhen>there is even a SMAC mod for CIV
09:13<Celestar>there is a Space Mod for CIV IV :D
09:13<Celestar>which is quite fun, actually
09:13<@Terkhen>Celestar: I'm usually happy with downloading existing mods and fiddling with their code a bit :P
09:13<Celestar>Mylon Mod :D
09:13<Flygon>When peeps say 'space mod', I think of Mega-lo-Mania @_@
09:14<Flygon>...MLM was odd
09:14<Celestar>it was one friggen awesome game
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09:16<@Terkhen>I play either a mod that starts with a word that I don't want to mention here or Fall from Heaven 2
09:16<Flygon>Celestar has played Mega-lo-Mania?
09:16<Flygon>I love you
09:16<Celestar>about 20 years ago :P
09:16<Flygon>Amiga or Mega Drive?
09:17<Celestar>Amiga. and PC later on
09:17<Flygon>I got the Mega Drive cart lying around somewhere...
09:17<Flygon>Ah, I tried to use the DOS version...
09:17<Flygon>Went horribly
09:17<Flygon>Ended up just going back to the Mega Drive :p
09:17<Flygon>Nukes are annoying as *$(# when you lack a mouse, though
09:21<Flygon>As well as launching nukes on SDI's... makes you wish you had the ability to launch multiple nukes at once
09:21<Flygon>And that SDI were a passive rather than active defense... a remake of MLM could fix a lot of gameplay detriments @_@
09:22<Celestar>make one
09:23<Flygon>Ehh, it's been done
09:23<Flygon>Could use better art and a lot of improvement, but it's been done
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09:40<Celestar>are there trams in the default set meanwhile?
09:40<Flygon>We welcome the new Japanese city of Cunaxa :p
09:40<Flygon>Don't think so
09:41<@Alberth>nope, because they are not in the original base set
09:42<Flygon>It'll never be padded with trams?
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09:44<@Alberth>my crystal ball is quite unclear there :)
09:44<Celestar>buy a better one
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09:46<Celestar>do newgrfs support high-resolution 32bpp sprites meanwhile
09:47<@Alberth>zBase is a base set NewGRF :p
09:47<@Alberth>but regular NewGRF works too, even for high-resolution 8bpp
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: NewGRFs support high-res and 32bpp independent of each other
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09:58<andythenorth>FIRS time
09:59<andythenorth>what shall I call the dock industry?
09:59<andythenorth>port, harbour, dock, import / export terminal
09:59<andythenorth>shipping terminal
10:00<@Alberth>+1 !
10:00<andythenorth>to all?
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>one of those :)
10:00<@Alberth>just the last one, imho
10:00<andythenorth>some might be confusing with existing 'dock' ?
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>import/export terminal may work better in a landlocked map
10:01<@Alberth>wharf sounds good too :p
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>(and a placement rule "near large body of water, or near map edge")
10:01<@Alberth>it probably doesn't mean anything :)
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>wharf is rather where ships are built
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>that has nothing to do with import/export
10:01<@Alberth>oh, it does
10:01<andythenorth>not in UK english
10:01<andythenorth>wharf is a quay
10:01<andythenorth>which is where ships berth
10:02<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: can you find the newgrf var for 'large body of water'? o_O
10:02<andythenorth>I would like a new pony please :P
10:02<andythenorth>use the pathfinder to count num. tiles
10:02<andythenorth>or something
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: "at least 200 square-tiles"?
10:03<andythenorth>you want me to spiral out in a tile var checkw when building?
10:03<andythenorth>or use a lot of magic tile FF?
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>that's a possibility
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i guess then "wharf" and "Werft" are somewhat false friends
10:04<@peter1138>should be an internal function
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10:10<andythenorth>how to get distance to map edge?
10:10<@peter1138>who cares?
10:11<@peter1138>on a 2048x2048 map? :p
10:11<andythenorth>good point
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>coordinates and map_x/map_y global variables
10:11<andythenorth>fiddly is enemy of done
10:12<@peter1138>wah, why can i have gnome 2
10:13<@peter1138>gnome 3 is like ripping out all newgrf support in openttd
10:20<@peter1138>sounds like a user experience nightmare
10:20<@peter1138>i'm sure it's lovely if you're coming from it as a new user
10:20<@peter1138>but so much stuff has changed or simply gone
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10:33<andythenorth>planetmaker: I need to tell the makefile that firs.pnml location is moved, can't see where to do that :)
10:35<andythenorth>solved :)
10:37<andythenorth>herp, what do I call the file that sets up all the cpp #includes ?
10:37<andythenorth>what is it? Config? Manifest?
10:37<andythenorth>project definition?
10:39<andythenorth>magic :P
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>"master control program"
10:45<andythenorth>very doctor who
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>it's actually from tron, but whatever
10:46<Flygon>Y'know what'd be awesome
10:46<Flygon>A Doctor Who-Tron-Star Trek crossover
10:46<Flygon>Where the Ship's computer has gone nut
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>a Doctor Tron Trek?
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10:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ^ :P
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>... right
10:55<andythenorth>my python step is getting slow
10:56<@peter1138>hmm, is it supported for station layouts to use tile layouts >= 8
10:58<@peter1138>looks like it's not actually forbidden
10:59<@peter1138>only the newgrf spec says the tile must be 0, 2, 4 or 6
10:59<@peter1138>but as it's not enforced, you can actually use any value up to 255
10:59<@peter1138>which means that CB14 may not really be necessary in most cases
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>i've never really understood this part of the specs
11:03<@peter1138>which bit?
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>the station tile part
11:04<@peter1138>which bit of it? heh
11:05<Stimrol>translation question, what are those --> STR_GOAL_QUESTION_BUTTON go and start and so on?
11:06<Stimrol>and how can I get them to appear?
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: Gamescripts/Goalscripts may ask the player a question like "do you accept this task?"
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: possibly the tutorial script/scenario may use these, not sure
11:11<Stimrol>Okey thanks, had never seen this button in the goal scripts. apperantly it has not been in the ones I have used, thanks :)
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>hm, should BigGUI come with a bigger spritefont?
11:12<@peter1138>it's not supported
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>what's the problem?
11:13<@peter1138>the height is a fixed value, not determined by the height of the sprite font
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>but... why?
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11:16<@peter1138>nobody's done it?
11:16<@peter1138>interesting news though
11:17<@peter1138>remember stbr2.png?
11:18<Rubidium>is that the stone bridge over the part of the railway station without the building?
11:18<@peter1138>well it doesn't glitch anymore
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>spritesorting/boundingbox fix?
11:21<@peter1138>i built a bridge through one of mb's glass canopies
11:22<Rubidium>what? didn't he set the right object property right?
11:23<@peter1138>the one that doesn't exist? no
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: png or it didn't happen! :p
11:24<@peter1138>tell you what though
11:24<@peter1138>the gantry on that default waypoint is bloody high
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>i mostly need bridges over tram/bus stations
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11:30<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and stations on bridgeheads :p
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>station on bridgehead, signal on bridge, junction on other bridgehead: epicly compact city station!!
11:32<@peter1138>or should i say
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>only further improvement beyond that would be: station on bridge/bridgehead, signal inbetween tiles, junction on bridge/bridgehead
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>but signals inbetween tiles is a major savegame conversion headache
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>also waypoints need to be inbetween tiles
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11:35<@peter1138>waypoints are full on station tiles these days
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but they occupy a full tile and can't be on diagonals -> they are awkward to place in tight spaces
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11:37<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: stations of bridgeheads are 'easy'. Level road crossing on bridge head... that's going to get interesting
11:38<@peter1138>interestingly waypoints are stations in the code and spec
11:38<@peter1138>but they're built by different routines
11:39<@peter1138>notably CBID_STATION_TILE_LAYOUT is't called
11:39<@peter1138>and availability isn't tested
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>there was something totally awkward with track reservation if you tried to sort trains on platforms via waypoints. the pathfinder would not consider the platform occupancy, so the train was stuck waiting for free path, because it wouldn't consider the empty platform as "shortest" path
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11:44<@peter1138>NOT_REACHED() is a noop on release builds, right?
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>the problem was that the pathfinder quit after reaching the waypoint tile, but the track reservation continued until the next signal
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: yes, should be
11:44<@peter1138>how can the track reversation continue if the PF quit?
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>the reservation has a special mode where it just randomly continues until it finds a signal
11:45<Stimrol>Is it a error that one ship depot is counted as 4 tiles
11:45<Stimrol>in the infrastructure
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: no, that's intended
11:46<Stimrol>is it so it costs more then?
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: like a switch is counted as 4 tiles, and a 3-way switch is more like 9 tiles or so
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: yes, that's the intention
11:46<Stimrol>ok nice
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11:51<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: It's not random, it does search for the proper destination, but it will only do that for the best first section, not all possible first sections.
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: right, but the point was, it doesn't do that for the pathfinder, so the train got stuck waiting for free platform when another platform was available
11:54<@peter1138>the reservation randomly continues?
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: it tries to figure out what the next stop is
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>,%2027.%20Dez%201930.png <-- this was the situation
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>the train wants to go to the goods waypoint, but it won't choose the third platform, because the occupied-platform penalties are not counted
11:58<supermop>hey eddi
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>i think that was a CargoD_e_st savegame
11:59<supermop>reading you string of posts about double tracks in the dutch stations thread
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11:59<supermop>what would make more sense would be just drastically breaking the scales of everything
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>as if scales aren't already broken enough?
12:00<supermop>draw a track on a tile so that it takes up most of the full tile, etc, making everything bigger, things glitching
12:00<supermop>etc etc
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>and since one does "one post" constitute a "string"?
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>*since when
12:01<supermop>oh whoops
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12:02<@peter1138>there was some guy who advocated multiple tracks on a tile a while back
12:03<supermop>well you'd have to ignore any compatibility with other grfs, but if one dedicated soul chose to play with an entire ecosystem of consistently out of scale sprites it could work
12:03<supermop>and have the dedication to make all his bridges two levels off the ground instead of one
12:04<supermop>actually lets say three, be cause that guy probably wants his bridge decks to be 8 pixels thick anyway
12:04<Eddi|zuHause> <-- anyway, i counted 15 trackbits on that tile, plus 1 bit for the orientation, plus one bit for switching the current single-track-layout to this one
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>and then the reservation and movement pattern problems
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>and when you are allowed to place signals where
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12:10<Stimrol>{WHITE}{1:CURRENCY_LONG}/yr ({0:COMMA}) -- does /yr mean per year so I could translate it to per year?
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>but i think the official symbol should be "/a"
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>(a for "anno")
12:16<Stimrol>could be, but I am no english speaker so I could not be sure. I just thougt that it would fit better for my language to say "per year" instead of /yr or the same for my language
12:17<@peter1138>as "anno" isn't an english word, that wouldn't make sense
12:17<@peter1138>annum, perhaps
12:17<@peter1138>but "/a" is just asking for "wtf is /a?"
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>using "per anno" or "p.a." is rather common in german
12:18<@peter1138>it's "per annum" in english
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>maybe germans are just failing at latin, anyway :)
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12:21<Stimrol>found this for abbrevations -->
12:21<Stimrol>it is p.a. in english according to this
12:22<Stimrol>so I should maybe file a bug or just leave it be :)
12:22<Pinkbeast>I would not use p.a. other than in a formal context where the meaning could be inferred.
12:22<Pinkbeast> /yr would be a much more obvious expression to use.
12:23<@peter1138>yeah, let's use /yr
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12:25<Eddi|zuHause>gives "a, y or yr"
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>it's on wikipedia, it must be true
12:28<Rubidium>but *only* if someone that is not related to the subject has written that about it
12:31<Stimrol>I would love if my university would consider wikipedia a valid source :)
12:33<Rubidium>Stimrol: those wiki pages are littered with sources, so just use those in your papers instead
12:34<Rubidium>esp. useful if they are archaic books ;)
12:34<Stimrol>true, that is what I would do :)
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: make sure you rephrase things in your own words, because it's pretty obvios when reading that a paragraph is just copy-pasted from wikipedia
12:34<Stimrol>also true
12:37<Stimrol>ubs I chrashed citybuilder GS while using it along translation, don't know how
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12:51<NGC3982-2>What's up? :)
12:52<@Alberth>it's Saturday evening
12:53<NGC3982-2>I took quiet some time, but i think i have actually managed to administrate a >1024^2 ECS game.
12:56-!-dot_ [] has joined #openttd
12:57<NGC3982-2>And that's about what i can handle.
12:57<NGC3982-2>It works badly, but it seems to ..not go bancrupt.
12:57<NGC3982-2>For instance.
12:58<@Alberth>oh dear, bidirectional everywhere?
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13:00<NGC3982-2>I don't even have a clue what general direction the trains in that intersection uses
13:01<NGC3982-2>i just put it there whilst in panic.
13:01<@peter1138>i use bidi everywhere
13:02<@peter1138>not with layouts like that though
13:02<@Alberth>and your trains don't go in weird directions constantly? :o
13:02<NGC3982-2>Some trains needs to go both ways in that section
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13:02<NGC3982-2>so i used bidirectional. Though, i almost never use that otherwise.
13:03<@Alberth>sounds like no signal would be better than :p
13:03<NGC3982-2>There are very few instances where a few extra lines of rail and one-ways doesn't pay off.
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13:07<@Alberth>especially early in the game I often have a piece one bi-directional track when there is no room for a second track (I try to minimize terraforming and removing houses etc)
13:08<@Alberth>or when there are only a few trains running at the tracks
13:10<NGC3982-2>That's why i used it here
13:10<@peter1138>oh bah
13:10<@peter1138>so allowing to build bridges over stations is easy
13:10<NGC3982-2>Since early ECS and limited resources made terraforming and removing stuff expencive.
13:11<@peter1138>allowing to build stations under bridges, not so
13:12<+michi_cc>peter1138: Why's that? End result is the same isn't it?
13:15<@peter1138>code-wise it's way more complex
13:15<@peter1138>but not impossible
13:15<Stimrol>where can you change speed of ocean, there is translation for that?
13:17<@Alberth>speed of ocean?
13:18<@peter1138>what's the text?
13:19<Stimrol>{BLACK}Speed on ocean: {GOLD}{VELOCITY}
13:20<Stimrol>maybe this is a setting that can be made availible for newgrfs ships
13:20<@peter1138>that's the speed of a ship when it's on an ocean tile
13:20<@peter1138>yes, default ships don't differentiate iirc
13:20<Stimrol>FISH dont either it seems
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13:22<Eddi|zuHause>at least it was discussed once that FISH should make such distinctions
13:22<@peter1138>FISH 2 does
13:29<Stimrol>thanks peter, found it :)
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24887 /trunk/src/lang (13 files) (2013-01-05 18:46:13 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>simplified_chinese - 1 changes by chenwt0315
13:46<@DorpsGek>danish - 13 changes by Elias
13:46<@DorpsGek>esperanto - 25 changes by ernie13
13:46<@DorpsGek>greek - 1 changes by Rubidium
13:46<@DorpsGek>hebrew - 19 changes by naf869
13:46<@DorpsGek>icelandic - 109 changes by Stimrol
13:46<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 26 changes by H2
13:46<@DorpsGek>korean - 6 changes by telk5093
13:46<@DorpsGek>luxembourgish - 25 changes by Phreeze
13:46<@DorpsGek>polish - 2 changes by wojteks86
13:46<@DorpsGek>serbian - 5 changes by voodoo84
13:46<@DorpsGek>swedish - 16 changes by spacejens
13:46<@DorpsGek>turkish - 17 changes by kutzun
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13:52<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r24888 trunk/src/lang/icelandic.txt (2013-01-05 18:52:05 UTC)
13:52<@DorpsGek>-Fix: broken language file
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>new series of "failure to validate language file"?
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13:56<Stimrol>how can I fix that?
13:56<Stimrol>or find what is broken
13:57<frosch123>what string would the gender refer to?
13:57<Stimrol>Ahh this was a test with gender, let me fix it back
13:57<frosch123>maybe you would have needed {G 0 kominn komin komið}
13:57<frosch123>as the helptext says, {G} refers to the next string parameter
13:57<frosch123>but here it is at the end
13:59<Stimrol>does it auto change back?
13:59<Stimrol>so the error is gone?
13:59<frosch123>rb changed it
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14:00<Stimrol>is it okay if I try this again with your sugestion {G 0 ...
14:00<frosch123>no idea what you try to do :)
14:01<Stimrol>probably wont work, because I was trying testing if there was a gender on cargo that could be used
14:02<Stimrol>because water and food is not the same gender
14:02<Rubidium>oh... missed the {STRING} in there. Yesterday (or at least this week) there were a couple of :{COLOUR}{G x y z} strings in some language (where cases should've been used). Thought this was one as well
14:04<+michi_cc>Stimrol: It should work as long as you also set a gender for the cargo strings.
14:05<Stimrol>how do I set a gender for cargo instead of like change something because the gender is female?
14:06<frosch123>you select it in the dropdown left of the string
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14:07<Eddi|zuHause>you put "{G=f}cargo name", and then "{CARGO} {G bla-m bla-f}" into the other strings
14:07<frosch123>not in wt3 afaik :)
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>i never used wt3 :)
14:08<Stimrol>would be interesting to try this
14:09<Stimrol>so then the other one would be like this {G 0 kominn komin komið}
14:09<Stimrol>I was thinking of water and food in the desert when I did this
14:09<frosch123>yes, if the string with the gender is the first parameter in the string
14:11<@peter1138>er. whoops...
14:12<@peter1138>not quite right
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :p
14:13<frosch123>better than in the other direction
14:13<@peter1138>it's cos bridges go higher than the highest tile height. oh well
14:14<Stimrol>the final string is then "Vatn komið" because water in icelandic is non-gender and "Matur kominn" because food is male gender
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: just make 0 mean "no bridge allowed"?
14:15<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, then i need to add a load more tests for 0
14:15<frosch123>Stimrol: you need to set the gender in the "Vatn" and "Matur" strings then
14:15<frosch123>using the dropdown on the left of the translation
14:15<frosch123>"All" means no gender for some reason only tb knows
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: also consider more-heightlevels-patch (although i vaguely remember that it put a max bridge height in somewhere)
14:16<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, that's precisely why i'm using MAX_TILE_HEIGHT
14:16<@peter1138>but + 2 is needed, not + 1
14:16<Stimrol>frosch123, then that would be "{G=m}matur"
14:16<Stimrol>I tryed the dropdown and that always autochanged back for everything
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14:17<frosch123>also when you click on save?
14:17-!-Superuser [] has quit []
14:17<Stimrol>yes did that when I was trying this for delivered
14:21<frosch123>Stimrol: works for me, i changed STR_QUANTITY_FOOD to karlkyn
14:21<frosch123>selected in dropdown, pressed save
14:21<frosch123>ah, while it displays a dropdown for editing, the history at the bottom does indeed say "{G=karlkyn}"
14:22<Stimrol>ok now I understand, I used it like save for each, of course
14:22<Stimrol>but should be {G=m}
14:23<frosch123>no idea which of those is m :)
14:23<frosch123>"karlkyn" "kvenkyn" "hvorugkyn" are my chioces :)
14:23<Stimrol>that meand m, f, n
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>"##gender karlkyn kvenkyn hvorugkyn" <-- so no "m f n" available
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14:25<dadymax>Hello all. I just want to post link to tt-forums and ask what you (great all :) ) think about
14:25<Stimrol>but will it have an error in the file, because there is nothing the openttd only know what m,f,n means, not karlkyn,kvenkyn,hvorugkyn
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>openttd will know whatever is in the ##gender line, nothing else
14:26<frosch123> <- so Eddi knows what we talk about :)
14:26<Stimrol>because {G=karlkyn} makes no sense for openttd while {G=m} does
14:26<dadymax>and another question: what IRC client is good novadays? I use mirc 10 years ago but maybe something better created? )
14:27<frosch123>Stimrol: no, ottd does not know about "m", "f" or "n"
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: i think you have a misunderstanding of how it works internally
14:27<frosch123>ottd knows about 0, 1, 2, 3 and such :)
14:27<@peter1138>what about strgen?
14:27<Stimrol>then it wil know that both {g=m} and g=karlkyn both are 0
14:28<frosch123>there is no "m"
14:28<frosch123>every language has a number of genders
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: no it will not, because there's no "m" in "##genders" for icelandig
14:28<frosch123>it does not matter what they are called to ottd
14:29<@peter1138>has someone translated male/female/neuter?
14:30<frosch123>also various languages use gender for non-gendery stuff :)
14:30<frosch123>i believe german and french have a plural gender or so
14:30<Stimrol>I am talking about the way you write it, the history show {G=karlkyn} if I was writing english the history would show {G=m}, just was a little worried that it would make error
14:30<@peter1138>catalan.txt:##gender Masculin Femenin
14:30<@peter1138>croatian.txt:##gender male female middle
14:30<@peter1138>norwegian_bokmal.txt:##gender masculine feminine neuter
14:30<@peter1138>serbian.txt:##gender muški ženski srednji
14:30<@peter1138>dear oh dear!
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: no, that is correct
14:30<@peter1138>icelandic.txt:##gender karlkyn kvenkyn hvorugkyn
14:31<@peter1138>but yeah
14:31<@peter1138>because that line has those labels, you need to use them
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>src/lang/czech.txt:##gender m f n map mnp fp np <-- not sure how many genders you can have in total :p
14:31<Stimrol>I think some language have more than 3 :)
14:32-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
14:32<Stimrol>but thanks folks, I am going to try this
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, czech apparently has 7 :)
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>and afrikaans has only "male" gender? how does that work :)
14:33<@peter1138>most of the time i only see these genders set up in the header
14:33<@peter1138>never actually in any translation
14:34<Stimrol>one side track, I see that the translation is r24887, but download on openttd is r24886 why is that?
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14:34<@peter1138>czech only uses f, fp, m and n
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>well, i added the "plural" gender to german, and genders in general to the FIRS translation, because the malformed industry creation messages drove me crazy
14:35<@peter1138>Stimrol, try again, you'll get 24888
14:35-!-jcurran [] has quit []
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: it takes some time until the nightly compilation run finished
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: it doesn't compile for every version
14:37<Stimrol>thanks again, worked
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>anyone reviewed the german translation for TaI yet?
14:38<Stimrol>and while I am at it, I am still missing Ubuntu 12.10 for the stable one in the download menu :)
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>nobody uses that :p
14:39<frosch123>Stimrol: is it available for the beta?
14:39<frosch123>oh, i guess the 12.x will do
14:40<frosch123>you mean 12.10 is more like 13.x ? :p
14:40<Stimrol>I always get an error while installing the deb file for 12.4 so I have to use the .tar one
14:43<andythenorth>no pokka
14:43<Stimrol>call the ambulance andythenorth north is gone crazy
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14:46<frosch123>andythenorth: maybe a bit early :)
14:47<andythenorth>good point
14:48<andythenorth>frosch123: got any new specs to read?
14:48<frosch123>not yet
14:58*andythenorth works on a port in that case
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15:01<NGC3982-2>Jazz and ECS goes together like lesbians and beer.
15:05-!-valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:15-!-drac_boy [] has joined #openttd
15:20*andythenorth plays with peter1138's server
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15:23<drac_boy>is the lumber mill's tree removal behaviour fixed or can you vary its radius and clearcutting speed?
15:25-!-valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
15:25<frosch123>you can slow the cutting speed
15:25<frosch123>rest is fixed
15:26<frosch123>you can make it cut trees only in october and such :p
15:27<drac_boy>heh seasonal cutting? hmm interesting
15:28<frosch123>well, usually seasonal stuff is crappy for gameplay :p
15:30<drac_boy>depends how you make it I guess
15:30<andythenorth>rails have a clearance value, tram tracks don't :P
15:30<Stimrol>in translation, when is CARGO_SINGULAR used?
15:30<drac_boy>if its an indstry that still goes on a slow scale (eg logging still happens during wet spring but only very close by) thats still ok for gameplay...
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't think either of these do
15:31<drac_boy>but for something like wheat crops it indeed would not work because you only get a lot of it one or two months per year!
15:31<Stimrol>acceptes, and require both use CARGO_PLURAL
15:31<andythenorth>rals do
15:31<andythenorth>rails *
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: where?
15:31<andythenorth>whenever removing track
15:31<andythenorth>it's a source of income
15:31<drac_boy>I never liked some of the custom (even FIRS) vectors for this exact reason
15:31<andythenorth>useful when losing by some small amount
15:31<drac_boy>what you think of what I said frosch123?
15:31<andythenorth>drac_boy: wtf are you talking about?
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>ah, i misunderstood your word "clearance" then
15:32<andythenorth>clearance / removal /s
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, because trams are treated internally as roads, and nobody bothered to allow making the cost negative or so
15:32<andythenorth>funny that :)
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i understood "clearance" as "height restriction"
15:33<andythenorth>silly language I was born with
15:33<andythenorth>born into
15:33<andythenorth>drac_boy: are you reporting a FIRS bug?
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>maybe "clearing value" might have been a more correct word, but i don't think i understand your language better than you do :p
15:33<drac_boy>no..just talking to frosch :p
15:35<@Alberth>probably 1 diamond versus more diamonds
15:35<andythenorth>drac_boy: sounded like a bug to me
15:35<andythenorth>broken production
15:35<drac_boy>andythenorth actually its standard
15:35<andythenorth>can you reproduce it ?
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: "1 Passenger" vs "2 Passengers"
15:36<drac_boy>industry produces zero dring winter and spring .. produce some during summer then goes dead again... but that seem to be alike to the real industry counterpart after all
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: "1 crate of goods" vs "2 crates of goods"
15:36<Stimrol>Alberth, then they would just use {P "" s} not a whole string for it
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15:36<andythenorth>drac_boy: that is definitely a bug
15:36<@peter1138>Stimrol, there's no number
15:36<drac_boy>but anyway that was only part of the actual topic
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: no, because the order of evaluation is backwards
15:36<andythenorth>would you mind posting a savegame in the FIRS development thread?
15:36<andythenorth>that's a serious bug
15:37<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: that's not it I fear
15:37<drac_boy>andythenorth what did I said? I'm only talking to frosch
15:37<Rubidium>singular seems to be only used in the subsidy window
15:37<andythenorth>yes but it would be helpful to fix this
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15:37<drac_boy>you also fix ecs and pbi too? :P
15:38<andythenorth>but I can fix FIRS
15:38<@peter1138>Rubidium, got to love hysterical raisins
15:40<Rubidium>the singular form seems to be used in subsidy news only
15:40<Rubidium>(award and creation only)
15:41<drac_boy>btw stimrol how're you anyway?
15:41<Stimrol>I am fine of course
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i think i remember the wording of these things completely wrong then
15:41<@peter1138>First {passenger} service from ...
15:42<@peter1138>it's because it uses the word "service"
15:43<Stimrol>thanks Eddi|zuHause and Rubidium
15:44<andythenorth>peter1138: you're recently beating pikka and scuddles in this game you're not playing ;)
15:44<@peter1138>hmm, so
15:46<andythenorth>drac_boy: any joy reproducing that bug? :(
15:46<drac_boy>andythenorth no idea will have to check a random singleplayer game on other computer when I feel like it
15:46<andythenorth>ok thanks
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: trying to implement a 60+ variable for "number of water tiles in <radius>?
15:55<Rubidium>peter1138: I'd implement it in the T-Ford colour selection method ;)
15:56<Rubidium>it can be any radius, as long as the radius is 0!
15:56<@peter1138>would you?
15:56<@peter1138>go on then
15:56<@peter1138>cos i'm not doing anything liek that :)
15:57<@peter1138>might be easier to loop through the station layout separately :S
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15:59<andythenorth>pinky ponk!
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i wanted to ask you about TaI and german translation
16:01<Pikka>the industries, eddi?
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>yes, mostly those
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>because back in PBI times, the "industry opens" messages annoyed me really badly
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>because all the genders were wrong
16:02<Pikka>the whole grf is being redone from scratch, I'll send you the texts when I have some and you can translate them for me :)
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>and nowadays, NewGRF translations support genders
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>it needs some magical gender translation table and stuff
16:03-!-aaa [] has joined #openttd
16:04<aaa>I need flash version of this game
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: you're still on nfo?
16:04<drac_boy>why aaa?
16:04<__ln__>no you don't
16:05<Pikka>yes eddi
16:05<aaa>To run it on my web
16:05<drac_boy>aaa what makes you think a *desktop* game with libs can suddenly run online silly
16:06<Zuu>There is a javascript version, but it is quite slow.
16:06-!-aaa [] has quit []
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>i guess that settles that :p
16:08-!-Flygon [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:09<andythenorth>Pikka: TaI looks good on that server game we had with peterer
16:09<andythenorth>after 100 years or whatever
16:09<Pikka>the towns? yes, I think they're notbad
16:10<Pikka>pubbegone needs to be even more aggressive though :) and/or have more variants
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: here's some of the magic that later got into FIRS to support genders:
16:10<andythenorth>Pikka: a lot of the roadtype combinatorial graphics crap could be composited at compile time btw
16:11<andythenorth>a standardised spritesheet would be useful...
16:11<Pikka>sure, if you're into that sort of thing
16:11<Pikka>like I said, it's iterative... it sounds like a lot of sprites but it really isn't
16:11<andythenorth>I drew trails once, it's not a lot
16:12<andythenorth>if spritegroups could be used for the drawing, combinatorial crap could be done at run time
16:13<andythenorth>hrm trails is 18 sprites, including turny-roundy-loop nonsenses
16:13<St3f>i installed the debian squeeze openttd but i can't find the openttd.cfg, do i have to make it manually?
16:13*andythenorth needs to put the Paper cargo back into FIRS
16:13<andythenorth>what larks
16:13<drac_boy>st3f..they moved it out of the folder for some reason I don't afaik yes you do have to make one yourself
16:14<St3f>ok tnx :p
16:14<Rubidium>drac_boy: what makes you think that?
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>St3f: openttd.cfg will be created once you exit normally
16:14<Sacro>gpl violation?
16:14<drac_boy>Rubidium the fact that its not even anywhere to be found without having created it yourself
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: please, do go ahead and discuss copyright with a russian :)
16:15<@peter1138>drac_boy, that's not a fact
16:15<@peter1138>drac_boy, that's a "you didn't look in the right place"
16:15<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: yeeeeeeeeah
16:15<Sacro>good point
16:15<drac_boy>peter1138 no? so why did I install openttd through the package thing then?
16:15<Sacro>could be zodttd again
16:15<drac_boy>so..the folder is actually right there
16:15<andythenorth>can't tell how much of the game gets distributed to my hangs my web dev tools :P
16:16<andythenorth>I assume the entire JS runtime and the graphics are distributed, so...yeah GPL violation
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16:17<Sacro>though if it's js...
16:17<Sacro>then surely you do get the code
16:17<Sacro>or it doesn't violate as its not agpl
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16:17<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: that's not actually true, because the js-code is autogenerated, you need to distribute the code that it is autogenerated from
16:17<andythenorth>I think it violates GPL
16:18<andythenorth>code's on github though
16:18<andythenorth>he could do it right, if he was interested
16:18<@peter1138>on windows, if you used the installer, it'll be under C:\Users\<username>\Documents\OpenTTD\
16:18<@peter1138>(or whereever your user folder is)
16:19<drac_boy>why is a game installed to a document folder? 0_o
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: it is not.
16:20<@peter1138>drac_boy, that game isn't
16:20<drac_boy>then how come he pretty much mentioned it btw?
16:20<@peter1138>drac_boy, your USERDATA is
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: pretty much every game in the last 15 years puts its savegame and config files into Documents\blah
16:21<drac_boy>sounds like a field day for backup softwares when they can't find the full app from its own folder -_-
16:21<drac_boy>but whatever
16:22<@peter1138>user data should never with stored with the program itself
16:22<andythenorth>this is hardly controversial
16:22<@peter1138>that's what causes issues with permissions
16:22<andythenorth>sounds like bad backup software
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: a backup software that doesn't back up your documents folder you should throw into the garbage bin
16:23<andythenorth>mine handles it fine
16:23<drac_boy>andythenorth its a popular one actually...on both win+linux
16:23<andythenorth>proof that the world is not short of idiots?
16:23<@peter1138>what backup software is that?
16:24<drac_boy>firefox perhaps is idiots if that was the case then? heh. mind you I never liked it much mainly for its instable resource management
16:25<@peter1138>indeed, in other words, what?
16:25<andythenorth>or eh?
16:25<andythenorth>for brevity
16:26<@peter1138>of course, there is the split between Documents and Application\ Data
16:26<@peter1138>but they're still in the user dictory
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16:29<andythenorth>where paper is?
16:29*andythenorth -> newgrf wiki :P
16:29<@planetmaker>evening everyone
16:30<andythenorth>lo planetmaker
16:30<andythenorth>hmm, I haven't coded cargos since 2008 :P
16:30<andythenorth>I have forgotten a lot
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16:31-!-DDR_ is now known as DDR
16:32<Pikka>peter's not beating me, andy :)
16:33<andythenorth>few of his charts were overlapping yours when I checked :P
16:33*andythenorth needs a fright toob
16:33<andythenorth>for mail
16:34<@peter1138> yeah
16:34<Supercheese>whoah, neat
16:34<drac_boy> know how that is -_-
16:35<@peter1138> < well that was kind of a bug
16:35<drac_boy>heh peter1138 thats nice, crossing large stations in busy areas would be more interesting in multiplayer
16:35<__ln__>yes, you press the green button and talk to the phone
16:35<drac_boy>__ln__ button needed
16:37<drac_boy>hmm peter1138 I guess that indeed is a bug. many planes have wings larger than the runaway width. ramming into the piers could be interesting
16:38<Supercheese>Allow it anyway, maximum sandbox! :P
16:38<drac_boy>__ln__ do you have one? :)
16:39<Supercheese>How many bridge slots are there anyway? To the wiki...
16:39<drac_boy>supercheese as long as theres a parameter to disable it for the sake of players that don't want to see town bridges over their airport
16:39*Supercheese was only half-serious
16:40<Supercheese>oh pooh, can't do bridges in NML
16:40<Supercheese>nevermind then
16:41<andythenorth>peter1138: good pilots can handle bridges
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16:48<@planetmaker>hm, seems that ISR is going to be re-vived :)
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: 13 slots... obviously
16:51<@peter1138>with bridges over it ?
16:52<drac_boy>planetmaker really?
16:53<@planetmaker>rumors, rumors. Voices in the wind ;-)
16:55<drac_boy>well it could use some more specific industry tiles that has been missing for too long
16:56<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you solved your makefile issue?
16:56<andythenorth>yes thanks
16:56<andythenorth>search is my friend
16:56<@planetmaker>things work (again) as you need? And CF, too :-)
16:56<@planetmaker>good :D
16:56<drac_boy>not to mention the lack of a platform to match wood unloading
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>it could use showing cargo piles on average throughput, not current waiting
16:56<drac_boy>and the generic empty raised platform tile doesn't seem right
16:56<@planetmaker>I heard rumors that FIRS compatibility is one of the first goals ;-)
16:57<@peter1138>planetmaker's doing it himself
16:57<drac_boy>eddi I rather prefer the latter, if the platforms seem full and theres no trains nearby I know I'm under-trafficed (for lack of word)
16:57<@peter1138>cos he has nothing better to do than mess with stations for years
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>(my biggest feature request for ISR)
16:57<drac_boy>no need to have to keep opening many station windows all the times
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>(because there are all these neat cargo graphics, but they're never shown)
16:58<@peter1138>yeah you only see the stockpiled stuff
16:58<andythenorth>the animations run ;)
16:58<drac_boy>or...I guess it could be left to a parameter for either 0 (as default) original behaviour or 1 the other behaviour you wanted
16:58<drac_boy>I don't know tbh :)
16:58<andythenorth>some of those animations took a whole weekend to setup ;)
16:58<@planetmaker>eddi's right with the way to show cargo graphis :-)
16:59<@peter1138>that's easy to fix for every station
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16:59<@peter1138>the code is in ResolveStation()
17:00<andythenorth>I only want to see cargo graphics when there's a problem
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17:00<andythenorth>or at least, that's there gameplay purpose for me ;)
17:00<andythenorth>FISH 2 needs a big fast catamarran
17:00<@peter1138>although in fact it appears to only show the first waiting cargo
17:00<andythenorth>600 PAX or so
17:00<@peter1138>so i guess the grf could be overriding that
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the tiles need some randomisation to represent mixed cargo stations better
17:01<andythenorth>or build per cargo
17:01<drac_boy>isn't it already randomized anyway?
17:01<andythenorth>bit fiddly :P
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you can't have "per cargo" if you have flexible amouts of cargos
17:02<andythenorth>good point
17:02<andythenorth>and it's a PITA
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17:02<andythenorth>although there are cargo-specific tiles in ISR
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17:03<@peter1138>cargo specific tiles should be able to represent the cargo type, stockpile wise
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>but you can have a "bulk pile" tile that displays "black pile", "orange pile", "grey pile" and randomly decides which one it's prefering over all others
17:03<Pikka>the cargo specific tiles in ISR just go off the first cargo waiting
17:04<Pikka>so if 3 bags of mail turn up at your station with 500 crates of goods, all the goods disappear off the platforms
17:04<@peter1138>you can make it go by total cargo waiting if you're doing something generic
17:04<@peter1138>Pikka, in that case the function i pointed out can "fix" that to pick the most waiting
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure it's just that somebody didn't bother implementing a more sophisticated check
17:05<Pikka>I'm saying that's a problem with ISR, not stations in general :)
17:05<@peter1138>not really, it's not ISRs fault that that is how openttd picks it
17:06<@peter1138>Do not skip an Action2 using Action9 (unless it skips the whole file). Action2 must not be skipped by Action9 or TTDPatch will most likely crash. Skip or modify Action3 instead. Skipping an Action2 with an Action7 has no effect.
17:06<@peter1138>i'm pretty sure that's all lies in openttd btw
17:06<Pikka>still sounds like bad practice to me :P
17:07<Pikka>if you're mucking with action 2 chains, do it with a var2, don't start sticking action 9s in
17:08<@peter1138>For vehicles (features 00 .. 03) and stations (feature 04)
17:08<andythenorth>I found an exciting warning earlier that attempting to access 80+ vars from an industry tile will crash openttd
17:08<@peter1138>The cargo-type for which the set-ID applies. If the item is built to use this type of cargo, or if it is refitted for it, the given set-ID is used as its graphics.
17:08<@peter1138>cos i always refit my stations...
17:08<andythenorth>stations are in no way batshit crazy
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: NML makes sure you can't skip action2's anyway
17:08<@peter1138>according to whom?
17:09<andythenorth>crash *TTD* ....misread
17:09<@peter1138>oh, that's likely
17:09<@peter1138>you'll just get an "errrrrr that's not supported" result in ottd
17:09<andythenorth>one day the rest of the newgrf spec will be rewritten to be compliant with stations
17:10<andythenorth>so that it all makes sense
17:10<@peter1138>it does make sense
17:10<@peter1138>to me
17:10<@peter1138>after spending about 3 years working on it, if not more
17:11<@peter1138>the early pre-me implementation of newgrf stations
17:11<@peter1138>what a laugh
17:12<andythenorth>I want cargo little and cargo lots for my vehicles too
17:12<andythenorth>much more fun
17:13<frosch123>andythenorth: already present; it's called "road vehicle" and "ship"
17:13<andythenorth>big ships are really hard to use
17:14<andythenorth>try them with TaI, the industries all close before the ship has delivered :P
17:14<andythenorth>FIRS outputs are too low
17:14<@peter1138>andythenorth, pfft
17:14<andythenorth>and with cargo goal GS, they just take too long to deliver
17:15<@peter1138>andythenorth, consider station property 10 to be the thing that distinguishes between loading and loaded
17:15<@peter1138>they're exactly the same after that
17:15*andythenorth grumbles at peter1138 being all reasonable
17:15<@peter1138>loading and moving, sorry
17:15<@peter1138>stations don't move, heh
17:16<andythenorth>time for bed iggle piggle
17:16<andythenorth>forgot to finish FIRS
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17:22<@peter1138>ooh it crashed
17:30<__ln__>anyone been to paris airshow?
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17:35<frosch123>+ return GetBridgeHeight(GetNorthernBridgeEnd(tile)) - GetTileMaxZ(tile); <- that's the same as GetBridgeHeightAboveGround, innit?
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17:38<@peter1138>oh, yes
17:40<frosch123>hmm, don't you disallow construction of stations below bridges?
17:40<frosch123>CheckBuildableTile seems to reject all bridges now
17:41<@peter1138>i removed the check from there
17:41<@peter1138>the check's moved to CheckFlatLand()
17:41<frosch123>ah, the other hunk is already in another function
17:42<@peter1138>but as it's an svn diff you don't see the function in the hunk data
17:43<@peter1138>most of the changes are due to building station tiles under bridges :(
17:43<frosch123>+ statspec->heights = (uint8 *)malloc(tiles) <- i guess ottd uses MAllocT or something like that
17:43<@peter1138>building bridges over station tiles was easy peasy
17:43<@peter1138>oh yeah
17:43<@peter1138>old style coding :p
17:44<frosch123>hmm... why do we still disallow trees :p
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: trees don't usually grow under bridges :p
17:46<frosch123>trees even grow inside houses
17:46<frosch123>peter1138: looks nice, but lacks a lot of doxygen :)
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18:08<@Terkhen>good night
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18:17<drac_boy>hmm is one unit of wool supposed to weight the same as one passenger? I would had thought it would be lighter but apparently I guess you can't specify eg 0.4 or any decmical placement...or can you?
18:18<@peter1138>so how much wool is a unit of wool?
18:21<__ln__>how much wool would a woolchuck chuck?
18:21<drac_boy>good question, I haven't figured out yet how much amount of tightly packed wool would make up a hay bale package. I do know that its too easy to carry too much loose wool in your arms if you had wanted to heh heh
18:21<drac_boy>__ln__ I believe that was actually wood as in woodchuck :) heh
18:23<@peter1138>well if it's wool
18:23<@peter1138>isn't not gonna be a hay bale
18:24<Pikka>these are 330kg each, apparently
18:25<Pikka>but more traditional bales would only be about half as dense
18:25<drac_boy>mm thats quite some thicker wool
18:25<@peter1138>no, it's just compacted to save space
18:27<drac_boy>and apparently they don't always wrap it before pressing
18:29<@peter1138>quite a lot on there
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19:09<+michi_cc>drac_boy: I guess you want cargo prop 1D (and 0F, but that's not for capacity).
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19:47<drac_boy>thanks anyway michi_cc had a look at these
19:48<+michi_cc>Both props are fixed point values, so you can do fractions with them.
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19:56*drac_boy wonders if Supercheese is having connection mold problem? :)
19:56<drac_boy>heh heh
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20:04<userpics>anyone know how to change userpics? (accedently thought nickname was title)
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20:06<drac_boy>trainman one stupidly simple rule: if you want to ask a question, wait long enough for an answer to be typed out -_-
20:07-!-Devroush [] has quit []
20:07<drac_boy>trainman noone can really type 100 words in one second silly :)
20:07<trainman1432>also do you know how to change user picplus im only 8
20:07<drac_boy>anyway trainman for the next time just do '/nick newnamehere' without the quotation marks
20:08<trainman1432>whoops typo there
20:08<drac_boy>by user pic do you mean on forum or ?
20:08<trainman1432>yes, fourm user pic
20:08<drac_boy>no idea, don't have a forum account yet sorry
20:08<trainman1432>another typo
20:08<drac_boy>I'm sure someone should be able to tell a few minutes :p
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20:12<trainman1432> UMM.. drac my man, are you there
20:12-!-Arafangion [~Arafangio@] has left #openttd []
20:13<trainman1432>and drac BTW do you know it is the tt-forums
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20:17<trainman1432>ARE you F***ingledy thre
20:18<Sacro>trainman1432: quiet down
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and i thought everyone else was also afraid to say something when a hyperactive person is in the room :p
20:19<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: i'm not afraid
20:19<trainman1432>sacro do you know where drac boy is
20:19<Zuu>You can go to the user profile section of tt-forums
20:19<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: aside from of Germans
20:19<Sacro>trainman1432: canada
20:20<Zuu>Often you have to click 2-3 times to get to the right sub page of the profile page to get the right setting page.
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: as well you should be :p
20:21<Wolf01>'night all
20:21-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
20:21<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: yes :P
20:21*drac_boy was wondering whether 1. trainman was going to refuse to understand waiting a lousy few minutes or 2. someone told him something
20:21<Sacro>they have schnitzel
20:21<trainman1432>well i just found out he left or changed his nickname BTW he was called drac_boy
20:21<drac_boy>sacro I've always made veal schnitzels once in a while :)
20:21<Sacro>drac_boy: think he's en route to canada
20:21<Sacro>also are you the old dhb?
20:22<Sacro>some people change names
20:22<Sacro>like Eddi|zuHause
20:22<Sacro>and peter1138
20:22<drac_boy>enroute to canada? that would be fun because the airports here don't like young people with no parents
20:22<Sacro>oh send them here, the bbc will look after him
20:22<drac_boy>heh bbc... :)
20:22<trainman1432>You have no parents??????????????:O
20:23<drac_boy>not sure who that is sorry sacro?
20:23<Sacro>no, he was picked up out a depot
20:23<Sacro>drac_boy: heh, going with the 1 canadian === another canadian
20:23<Sacro>if you aren't him you must be Belugas
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>THEY ALL KNOW EACH OTHER!!!
20:23<drac_boy>sacro heh I think there was danmack, he's obviously canadian
20:24<drac_boy>mind you I've never talked to him, seen some of his forum posts tho
20:24<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: s'true
20:24*drac_boy has canset.grf as well ofc
20:24<Sacro>didn't you live with dalestan and ... patchman
20:24<Sacro>they're all germans
20:24<trainman1432>?what the fudge are you talking about? :?
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i'Ve ever had one of the canadian grfs
20:24<trainman1432>i have
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: your royal family are all germans
20:25<Sacro>not all
20:25<Sacro>Philip the Greek for instance
20:25<drac_boy>eddi well if you have played with NARS or 2CC then you do have a bit of canada in it? :)
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: not really
20:25<Sacro>and Kate Mmmmmmmmiddleton
20:26<Sacro>we are all europeans here
20:26<Sacro>we play ukrs or dbset
20:26<trainman1432>also candian train set
20:26<drac_boy>I've never liked 2CC too much because of the confusing buy list but wouldn't complain tho
20:26<drac_boy>I do know the Royal Hudson is in the list for one :p
20:26<trainman1432>is canadian sorry for dble post
20:27<drac_boy>sacro I have dbsetxl too, been wondering about the upcoming next version of it too
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: for different values of "upcoming" :p
20:27<drac_boy>that is unless its openttd-only but we'll just have to see
20:28<trainman1432>what are you talking about?
20:28<trainman1432> i realy dont know Sorry for typo
20:28<Sacro>trainman1432: just put "eh" on the end
20:28<Sacro>that'll help us remember the canadian thing
20:28<drac_boy>sacro, as in 'eh whats up doc?' :P
20:29<drac_boy>heh heh
20:29<Sacro>they ... think ... i'm ... slow ... eh
20:29<trainman1432>what canidian thing
20:29<trainman1432>no too fast
20:29<Sacro>oh you're in the US
20:29<trainman1432> yep dor*
20:30<trainman1432>who left?
20:30<Sacro>i think trainman1432 did
20:31<trainman1432>no i didnt j*rk
20:31*drac_boy smacks trainman for cursing two times tonight :P
20:31<drac_boy>heh heh
20:32<trainman1432>how did you do that dracboy?
20:32<Zuu>trainman1432: While we don't have a rule to use nice language, please stick to a language that you would use with friendly people IRL.
20:32<drac_boy>trainman try this '/me mutters' or something
20:33<drac_boy>you'll see for yourself
20:33*trainman1432 mutters test
20:33*Zuu goes to bed
20:33<drac_boy>bye zuu
20:34-!-Zuu [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:34*trainman1432 hears zuu snoring zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..........
20:35<trainman1432>and ps drac boy you are not right next to me
20:36*drac_boy points trainman to the definition of 'spamming'
20:36<trainman1432>gag gag gag gag*
20:36<drac_boy>NGC3982-2 I don't know what to make of this weird person either -_-
20:36*trainman1432 Pukes
20:37<NGC3982-2>Managing ECS is hell.
20:37<trainman1432>o reely?
20:37<drac_boy>heh, I have to agree NGC3982-2 more than often I left the chemical and automobile vectors out
20:37<drac_boy>simplifies some of the other things
20:38<trainman1432>is '/ban' a cmd?
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20:40<trainman1432>hello? anyone?
20:41*trainman1432 gets impatiant
20:41<Sacro>i noticed
20:41<Eddi|zuHause>maybe we should give him an easy exercise, like this one: "Exercise 1.1. (4 Points): prove that the following functions are in the class E^0 of the Grzergorczyk-Hierarchy: f_1(x) = 1-x, f_2(x,y)=x-y, f_3(x,y)=(1-x)*y, f_4(x,y) = (1-x)+y"
20:42<trainman1432>What does all that "garbage" mean?
20:42<drac_boy>its math silly
20:42<Eddi|zuHause>see for details
20:42<Sacro>one moment
20:43<Sacro>eh, fuck that noise!
20:43<trainman1432>You swore sacro:O
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>he's an adult (i can't believe i just said that :p)
20:44<trainman1432>ps do you know him????
20:45<Eddi|zuHause>i have never met him in person.
20:45<NGC3982-2>Math on IRC are the most devilish of profanity.
20:45-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:45<trainman1432>gags then pukes
20:45<NGC3982-2>I think that's my que.
20:45-!-NGC3982-2 [] has quit []
20:46<Sacro>trainman1432: i'm an adult
20:46<Sacro>i've been here a decade
20:46<trainman1432>i heard that
20:46<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: that depresses me
20:46<Sacro>i think it was 2002 when i came on here first
20:47<trainman1432>LOLOLOLOLOLing for no reason
20:47<trainman1432>ive got to go
20:47-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
20:47-!-trainman1432 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Yes, /ban is a command]
20:47<Sacro>shame that
20:48<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
20:48<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 13 weeks, 1 day, 1 hour, 28 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
20:48<drac_boy>good, I was wondering when this would stop
20:48<drac_boy>sacro heh thats quite a long time :/
20:48-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!] by DorpsGek
20:49-!-trainman1432 [] has joined #openttd
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: i doubt he actually understood that
20:50<Sacro>drac_boy: yes
20:50<Sacro>some people are still here
20:51<trainman1432>ok i had to reload the page and found out that '/ban' is a cmd
20:51<Sacro>that's not
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: well he moved...
20:52<Sacro>also the logs only go back to 2006
20:52<Sacro>i remember there being logs before then
20:53<trainman1432>is drac boy still here
20:53<Sacro>i dunno
20:54<trainman1432>and what is a star next to a user mean?
20:54<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: have you met many from here?
20:54<Eddi|zuHause>i've met some people, yes
20:54<Sacro>trainman1432: how many points?
20:54<Sacro>5 means jewish
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: the david star has 6...
20:55<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: oh right
20:55<Sacro>trainman1432: jews have to identify themselves on irc
20:55<trainman1432>i wasnt talking about pts
20:57<trainman1432>also who is dorpsgek?
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>he's the village idiot
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>hence the name
20:57<trainman1432>an IDIOT?
20:59<trainman1432>are you out if your MIND\?
21:00*Sacro hugs Eddi|zuHause
21:00<Stimrol>peww, Icelandic translation is now 100% done, gratulation to me
21:00<trainman1432>ok dorpsgek is village idiot in ddutch
21:00<Sacro>Stimrol: awesome
21:01<Sacro>now both of you can play in icelandic
21:02*trainman1432 get a splitting headache
21:02<Stimrol>yes my and my other countryman, we have our own language
21:02<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: when we can have commits for "the MorphOS user", why can't we have a translation for "both icelandic speakers" :p
21:02-!-Wakou [] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
21:02<Stimrol>I have heard that there are more people that know klingon than icelandic, I find that funny
21:02<Eddi|zuHause>although the morphos port is broken for ages, i fear
21:03<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: well, the average european city has more inhabitants than whole of iceland :)
21:03*trainman1432 slaps Eddi|zuHause
21:04<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: haha
21:04<Stimrol>hehe I know, iceland is like lets say Bergen in Norway
21:04<Sacro>is the os/2 build still going?
21:04<Sacro>or did orudge give up fixing it for himself
21:04<Eddi|zuHause>no idea
21:05*trainman1432 blows up tnt next to eddi|zuhause
21:05<Eddi|zuHause>although anything that can run gcc4 should be able to run openttd nowadays
21:05*trainman1432 says f***
21:05<Stimrol>but here is why Iceland is officialy hip and 8 reason to visit it -->
21:05<trainman1432>f sguf ihff
21:06<Sacro>trainman1432: you have a private message, type "/server messages" to see it
21:07<Sacro>or does hat not work on the web client
21:07<trainman1432>all i want is you to get off this dumb iceland thing of yours
21:08<Sacro>then go
21:09<Sacro>press alt+f4 for quick exit
21:09<trainman1432>what exit?
21:09<Stimrol>I thought this iceland remarks where funny, and I am from there, one of two
21:09*trainman1432 slaps sacro
21:10<trainman1432>heh heh
21:10<trainman1432>bah! humbug
21:10<trainman1432>sound like mr. scroge
21:12*trainman1432 thinks everyone on is dead
21:12<trainman1432>exept me
21:12<Eddi|zuHause>trainman1432: you realize there are timezones and stuff?
21:13<Eddi|zuHause>trainman1432: and 90% of the people here are from europe?
21:13<TrueBrain>@kban trainman1432 60 it might be late, but I still think it is rude
21:13-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
21:13-!-trainman1432 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [it might be late, but I still think it is rude]
21:14-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!] by DorpsGek
21:14<TrueBrain>didn't read much, if he was saying anything useful; I just disliked the lines of fs :P
21:14-!-trainman1432 [] has joined #openttd
21:14<Eddi|zuHause>you did nothing wrong for sure :p
21:14<Sacro>TrueBrain: like flies
21:15<Sacro>Stimrol: hehe :)
21:15<trainman1432>i realy think dorpsgek has done enogh to me
21:15<Sacro>i'd love to visit iceland
21:15<Sacro>pick up some fish fingers and burgers and such
21:17*trainman1432 gets brody's ghost
21:17<Stimrol>always welcome, I am told it is good to come with foreign money to iceland now when the krona is so low, at least some norvegian friend love icelandic shoping. While I cant afford it :)
21:17<Sacro>damn, you didn't get the joke :(
21:17*trainman1432 thinks dorpsgek does not like me
21:18<Sacro> :(
21:18<Eddi|zuHause>well you called him an idiot
21:18<Stimrol>hehe, better late than never
21:18<trainman1432>its dutch silly
21:19<Stimrol>but I think I should sleep now, good night
21:19<Eddi|zuHause>well he's dutch. and you called him an idiot
21:19<Sacro>Stimrol: night night
21:19<trainman1432>nighty night
21:19<trainman1432>thats part of is name
21:19<trainman1432>(damn me :()
21:20<trainman1432>in english
21:20<trainman1432>for his name
21:21*trainman1432 waits
21:21<Sacro>i should go to bed also
21:23<trainman1432>why is stimotrol still on?
21:24<Sacro>i dunno
21:24<Eddi|zuHause>he doesn't know the time, because it's all dark there
21:24<trainman1432>its dark here too wimps
21:25<Eddi|zuHause>but not all day long
21:25<trainman1432>p.s. do you dunno is slang
21:25<TrueBrain>for once I truly dont know what to do about it ... is it real, or is it an act .. normally it is more clear :P
21:26<TrueBrain>normally I work on the rule: if it smells like a troll it is one
21:27<trainman1432>any one know how you know how to change tt forums user pic?
21:27<Eddi|zuHause>don't blame on trolling which you can blame on inexperience :p
21:27<TrueBrain>well, my dylema exactly :D
21:27<Sacro>night all
21:28<TrueBrain>@kban trainman1432 10000 finally a reason; thank you
21:28-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
21:28-!-trainman1432 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [finally a reason; thank you]
21:28-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
21:28-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!47ee2326@*] by TrueBrain
21:28-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
21:29<TrueBrain>I should learn DorpsGek about mibbit, so it can adjust his bans :D
21:29<TrueBrain>what a clown :)
21:29-!-DDR [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
21:29<TrueBrain>well, off to bed for me too .. sorry for taken your toy Eddi :)
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21:29-!-DDR_ is now known as DDR
21:29<Eddi|zuHause>i'm going to sleep as well :)
21:30<TrueBrain>one big sleepover! WHOHO!
21:30<TrueBrain>night all, night Sacro, night Eddi :)
21:30<Sacro>night TrueBrain
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---Logclosed Sun Jan 06 00:00:48 2013