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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-01-06

---Logopened Sun Jan 06 00:00:48 2013
00:14-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!47ee2326@ircip1.mibbit.com] by DorpsGek
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01:34<andythenorth>hola
01:35<Supercheese>tidings
01:45<Flygon>menta
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02:05<andythenorth>lo Pikka
02:05<Pikka>hello andy
02:06<Pikka>did I ever mention how much I hate the broken perspective in TTD?
02:06<andythenorth>no do tell
02:06<Pikka>ie, how much smaller vehicles are drawn in the / views compared to the - views
02:06<andythenorth>oh that
02:06<andythenorth>herm
02:06<andythenorth>I have some errors in that department
02:07<andythenorth>I have to redraw HEQS for that sometime
02:09<andythenorth>hmm
02:09<andythenorth>industries that randomise accepted / produced cargo at build time....
02:09<andythenorth>...good idea or smells of wee?
02:09<andythenorth>[it's a port]
02:11<Pikka>good idea
02:11<Pikka>for a certain subset of possible combinations, of course
02:11<Pikka>and different graphics for different "types" of port ;)
02:16<andythenorth>Pikka: HOQSV http://www.walter-rieck.de/matchbox/y16_lok.jpg
02:17<Pikka>not even remotely
02:18<andythenorth>86hp!
02:18<andythenorth>imagine
02:18<andythenorth>100t
02:18<andythenorth>low gear, slowly
02:18<Pikka>hoqvs = mainstream to the point of boringness
02:18<andythenorth>as an rv set should be
02:18<Pikka>I am, rather reluctantly, going to include two horse-drawn vehicles
02:18<Pikka>but there is no steam
02:18<Pikka>no trolleybuses
02:19<Pikka>no roadtrains
02:19<Pikka>no cargo trams
02:19<andythenorth>ugh
02:19<andythenorth>horses
02:19<Flygon>Y'know what we need?
02:19<Flygon>Human hauled vehicles
02:19<Pikka>yes
02:19<@Terkhen>good morning
02:19<Pikka>good morning Terkhen
02:20<Supercheese>Rickshaws eh
02:20<Pikka>andy: shall I not include horses?
02:20<Pikka>I've got to give the AIs something to go broke building, surely
02:21<Pikka>okay, you've talked me into it, no horses :D
02:21<Pikka>so
02:21<Pikka>trams from 1900
02:21<Pikka>buses from 1910
02:21<Pikka>trucks from 1930 (!)
02:31<Pikka>although I may push that back a little, I dunno
02:38<andythenorth>Pikka: the problem with horses is that they don't look good :)
02:38*andythenorth ponders a steam punk version of ttd history
02:38<Pikka>if I did horses, they'd be about a fifth the size of the egrvts ones :)
02:38<andythenorth>kettle steamers in 1810 :P
02:38<Supercheese>airships, airships everywhere
02:39<Supercheese>Steam engines and hydrogen, why not
02:42<Pikka>hmm
02:42<Pikka>horses for towncars, though :)
02:43*andythenorth doesn't add Paper to FIRS
02:43<andythenorth>why bother eh?
02:43<Pikka>lots and lots of lovely slow horses for your crappybuses to get stuck behind
02:43<andythenorth>buggies
02:43<andythenorth>hansoms
02:43<Pikka>same to you
02:43<Pikka>but yes, that sort of thing
02:43<andythenorth>hackney carriages
02:44<andythenorth>milk floats
02:44<Pikka>does it?
02:44<andythenorth>not sure
02:44<andythenorth>floats in milk
02:44<andythenorth>you should come here more often
02:44<Pikka>there
02:44<Pikka>supercrappytruck from 1915
02:44<Pikka>no need for horses
02:44<andythenorth>1t, 1mph?
02:44<Pikka>5t, 15mph!
02:45<andythenorth>bout the same as BANDIT
02:45<andythenorth>are you making BANDIT for me?
02:45<andythenorth>I can't be bothered
02:45<Pikka>looks like it
02:45<andythenorth>do a sentinel
02:45<Pikka>you'll just need to add the roadtrains
02:45<Pikka>no
02:46<andythenorth>not even sure roadtrains are wise
02:46<andythenorth>just adding them for australians :P
02:46<Pikka>roadtrains are boring
02:47<Pikka>need roadtypes so we can keep them out of towns
02:50<andythenorth>dunno
02:50<andythenorth>what is roadtypes?
02:50<Pikka>who knows
02:51<andythenorth>I had better do this FIRS thing
02:51<andythenorth>'Basic' economy
02:51<andythenorth>:P
02:51<Pikka>yerp
02:51<andythenorth>like stabilisers
02:51<Pikka>do you?
02:52<andythenorth>only if there's an r in the month
02:53<Pikka>there isn't
02:54*andythenorth checks
02:55<andythenorth>oh a port
02:55<andythenorth>looks strangely like a food shop right now
02:55<Pikka>port and cheese
02:55<andythenorth>why isn't cheese a cargo?
02:56<Supercheese>"food"
02:56<Pikka>too smelly
02:56<andythenorth>cheese economy
02:56<Supercheese>:D
02:56<Pikka>should've been a cargo in lunar, obviously
02:56<Pikka>cheese mines
02:56<andythenorth>obv.
02:56<andythenorth>more cheese grommit?
02:58<Pikka>I do like a bit of gorgonzola
02:59<andythenorth>wensleydale
03:07<andythenorth>hmm
03:07<andythenorth>ports where tiles accept anything
03:07<andythenorth>just dump stuff in for money
03:07<andythenorth>praps not
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03:09<Pikka>praps
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03:10<andythenorth>hmm
03:11<andythenorth>silly build framework
03:11<andythenorth>thinks cargos are just strings
03:11<andythenorth>can't apply them to tiles like that :P
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03:32<@peter1138>hi
03:32<@Terkhen>hi peter1138
03:34<Pikka>ji
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03:54<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/stbr3.diff
03:54<@peter1138>^ couple of tweaks and added doxygenation
03:58<@peter1138>looks really nice with that old viaduct, heh
04:00<@peter1138>well, perpendicularlyyyyy
04:00<@peter1138>not so much parallel
04:01<Pikka>huzzah
04:01<Pikka>next stop, roadtypes! :D
04:02<Supercheese>:D
04:04<Supercheese>Or proper ship locks, as mb seems to rather much want...
04:04<Supercheese>I dunno, the OTTD way decreases overall transit times ;)
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04:17<andythenorth>ship locks are overrateds
04:18<andythenorth>if we're going to dick around with locks, we need newgrf versions
04:18<andythenorth>2 tile
04:18<Supercheese>I usually just dig out a canal and let it fill naturally anyway
04:18<andythenorth>boat lift
04:18<Supercheese>much less maintenance costs
04:18<andythenorth>inclined plane
04:18<andythenorth>staircase
04:19<Supercheese>Boat ladder
04:19<Supercheese>Like a fish ladder :D
04:19<andythenorth>yup
04:19<andythenorth>locks are just part of NewAirports right? :P
04:19<@Terkhen>just attach a helicopter to all ships
04:19<@Terkhen>sadly that would require vehicles inside vehicles
04:20<Supercheese>hovercraft, go anywhere
04:20<andythenorth>hovercraft = ground level aircraft
04:20<Supercheese>was a patch for that, IIRC ;)
04:20<andythenorth>altitude 0
04:23<@Terkhen>a few days ago I noticed that aircraft shadows are shown under stuff like trees or houses
04:23<@Terkhen>maybe aircraft shadows are hovercrafts?
04:23<Supercheese>under?
04:23<Supercheese>hm
04:24<@Terkhen>s/under/behind/
04:24<@Terkhen>:P
04:24<@Terkhen>or, not shown, they are hidden
04:24<@Terkhen>in the weekends, my english tends to be even worse because I don't drink coffee
04:25<@peter1138>under is right, behind would be normal
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04:27<Celestar>mowning
04:28<Supercheese>'night :P
04:29<@Terkhen>good night Supercheese
04:29<@Terkhen>hi Celestar
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04:29<andythenorth>hmm
04:30*andythenorth wonders how much ottd could be adapted to warcraft 1 style game
04:30<andythenorth>need NewDisasters
04:30<andythenorth>for war purposes
04:30<andythenorth>Pikka: ?
04:30<Pikka>where?
04:30<andythenorth>there
04:30<andythenorth>on the stair
04:30<andythenorth>what say you war?
04:31<andythenorth>hmm
04:31<andythenorth>NewDynamite
04:31<andythenorth>that would do it
04:31<Pikka>I say how rare
04:31<andythenorth>actually more like Worms maybe :P
04:32*andythenorth ponders a 'battlefield' industry
04:32<andythenorth>in MP each player just delivers as much troops + ammo
04:32<andythenorth>GS adjucates who's winning
04:33<andythenorth>patch dynamite
04:33<andythenorth>every month, GS lets you blow up n tiles belonging to enemy, n determined by how well you're doing
04:33<Pikka>what about the apaches and F4s?
04:33<andythenorth>herp
04:33<andythenorth>dunno
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04:33<andythenorth>I can't have all the good ideas :P
04:33<@Terkhen>just play an RTS instead :P
04:33<andythenorth>blow stuff up with them?
04:34<andythenorth>the only one I want to play is Warcraft 1
04:34<andythenorth>and I can't figure out how to do that :P
04:35<@Terkhen>dosbox may be your friend
04:35<Celestar>RRTD works nicely in dosbox :P
04:36<Pikka>RV offsets are horrible
04:36<andythenorth>yes
04:37<andythenorth>I have some somewhere based on your train templates
04:37<andythenorth>probly in HEQS
04:37<Pikka>yes, well
04:37<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/heqs/repository/show/standard_rv_templates
04:38<Pikka>it would be nice if the train numbers worked :)
04:38<andythenorth>probably no good to you :P
04:38<Pikka>eh
04:38<andythenorth>can't even remember how those work
04:38<andythenorth>some templating thing
04:38<Pikka>I'm just going with near enough is good enough :)
04:39<Pikka>rv offsets don't seem to be nice and mathematically sensible like rail ones
04:39<andythenorth>they're blearch
04:40<andythenorth>as long as the turning looks right, you're ok
04:40<andythenorth>I reckon they're a bit fucked wrt drive side
04:40<andythenorth>but I've been told I'm wrong :P
04:40<andythenorth>if you set them up to look correct for LH drive, then play a RH drive game, you'll want to change them all :P
04:40*andythenorth -> soft play
04:40<andythenorth>bbl
04:41<@peter1138>Pikka, hah!
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04:41<@peter1138>i was coding ameecher's trams
04:41<@peter1138>looked lovely in ottd
04:41<@peter1138>was a horrible mess in ttdp
04:41<Pikka>:)
04:41<@peter1138>pom te pom
04:42*Pikka makes them look half reasonable for driving on the left
04:42<Celestar>ameecher's trains?
04:42<@peter1138>trams
04:42<Pikka>driving on the right can go jump
04:42<@peter1138>a set he drew years ago
04:42<@peter1138>(i was coding them years ago too)
04:43<@peter1138>25 years til the 2038 bug
04:43<Flygon>OpenTTD needs a 2038 disaster
04:44<Flygon>All the computers in trains and airplanes built after 1970 explode
04:44<Flygon>So you end up having to use Steam Engines again
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04:48<@Alberth>goot mornink
04:48<Pikka>him too
04:49<@Terkhen>hi Alberth
04:51<@Alberth>Flygon: but the machines to build those steam engines are broken too!
04:52<Flygon>You can hand build steam locomotives
04:52<Flygon>It involves hammers, rivets, and technical knowledge
04:53<@Terkhen>who will make the steel? :)
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04:55<@Alberth>let's use the steel of the tracks :p
04:57<Flygon>Well
04:57<@Terkhen>but that would be recycling!
04:57<Flygon>You can mine ore
04:57<Flygon>Refine it
04:57<Flygon>Turn it into iron
04:57<Flygon>Then refine it into steel
04:57<Flygon>According to Ragnarok Online
04:58<Flygon>Though, Ragnarok doesn't let Blacksmiths make Flygon's 10+ Very Very Strong Fire Steam Locomotive's...
04:59<@Terkhen>there are games without trains? what a flawed concept
04:59<@Terkhen>all games should have trains
04:59<Celestar>RRTD biggest flaw: "Station Limit Exceeded"
05:00<@peter1138>RRTD?
05:00<Celestar>railraod tycoon deluxe
05:01<@peter1138>ah
05:01<Celestar>I found a disk image while cleaning up my HDD yesterday :P
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05:03<Flygon>Terkhen: Ragnarok has trains. You just can't build them.
05:04<@Terkhen>:O that's crazy
05:04<Flygon>Though
05:05<Flygon>Most images draw attention to the Blimps...
05:05<Flygon>http://xandersbrianvideogameblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/einbroch.jpg Apperantly Blimps work by having the fans inside the envelope
05:05<Flygon>Gravity may have derped there
05:06<Flygon>This's the same game that has railway tracks that have sleepers on top of the tracks
05:07<Flygon>http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lew8lhkKwQ1qbgvn6o1_500.png There's engine limitations. And there's lazy/rushed as hell modelers and map makers >_>
05:08<Celestar>the hell is that :P
05:08<Celestar>the fan blows the helium outta the blimp? :P
05:08<Flygon>Celestar, I honestly don't know
05:08<Flygon>I don't think the ingame model actually had that error
05:08<Celestar>although, there could be a pipe or a huge hose through the center sucking air in from the front.
05:09<Flygon>http://levelupgames.uol.com.br/ragnarok/_img/cida_cala_mapa_einbroch2.jpg I was wrong
05:09<Celestar>like a big hairdryer :(
05:09<Flygon>...and yet, only the ingame model takes the term 'Airship' literally. All other official art has it as a Blimp.
05:09<Flygon>Gah, Koreans
05:10<Celestar>lol
05:10<Celestar>pfft how can I have a merge conflict in cargodist ... I didn't do any local modifictaions :P
05:11<@peter1138>yacd!
05:12<Celestar>nice that openttd compiles rapidly meanwhile :P
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05:20<Celestar>jesus h. christ how many game settings are there meanwhile?
05:20<@Terkhen>too many :D
05:20<@Terkhen>luckily you can filter them now :P
05:21<Celestar>yah.
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05:24<Celestar>distribution mode 'manual' does what exactly?
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05:25<Wolf01>moin
05:26<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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05:41<@Alberth>moin
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05:54<Zuu>Celestar: The distribution mode thingy can be used to create areas of flat land and areas of hills.
05:55<Zuu>Its a powerful but interesting setting.
05:57<__ln__>*It's
05:57<__ln__>you're welcome.
05:58<Zuu>Oh, yes you're right :-)
05:58<Zuu>I was just not paying attention to those.
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06:20<@planetmaker>moin
06:20<Celestar>Zuu: so what do you normally use for pax and mail? symmetric?
06:20<@Alberth>moin planetmaker
06:21<Celestar>yo planetmaker
06:21<@planetmaker>hey Celestar :-)
06:21<Zuu>Celestar: Hmm, I think I mixed up with the "Variety distribution" setting in the map gen window.
06:22<Zuu>The distribution mode is related to cargodist which I think is supposed to be symetric for pax, mail and other town cargo.
06:23<Celestar>hm... trains tend to cluster :/
06:23<Zuu>Only if you play eg FIRS or some other NewGRF which use passengers in industry concepts, a asymetric distribution may be useful. (to my understanding, but it was 1-2 years since I played cargodist last)
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06:23<@Alberth>Zuu : symmetric goods?
06:23<Zuu>Celestar: That is the golden rule of public transport systems. :-)
06:24<Zuu>You need to insert buffer time in the timetable for them to not bunch.
06:24<@Alberth>nah, just buy enough trains to fill the entire line :p
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06:26<drac_boy>hi
06:26<@Alberth>hi
06:26<Celestar>Zuu: give me a quick explanation how to do that. I got one line A - B - C - D - E served by 5 trains ...
06:26<drac_boy>how doing alberth?
06:26<Celestar>trains got orders A-E-A
06:28<Zuu>I always play with explicit non-stop orders. But as long as you make sure the "non-stop" flag is not set, it should work I think.
06:28<Zuu>But the train probably have to run a round so that implicit orders are added to the order window.
06:28<Zuu>Otherwise, I don't expect cargodist to know how to route cargo.
06:28<Celestar>it has.
06:29<@Alberth>drac_boy: adding money to FreeRCT might have been a bad idea; I sell things, but not enough :p
06:30<drac_boy>heh freerct? hows that differ from rct
06:30<Zuu>Alberth: All you need is to invent the money cheat
06:30<@Alberth>also, CTH coding style is horrible
06:31<@Alberth>Zuu: I should probably increase the profits; 0.10 profit for cookies and 0.30 for pizza is too cheap :p
06:31<Zuu>Is that Euro?
06:31<@Alberth>Unfortunately, I cannot set the amount of profit manually yet :p
06:31<Zuu>Or do you have your own game currency? :-)
06:32<@Alberth>Zuu: don't know, whatever you like :)
06:32<Eddi|zuHause> <Pikka> andy: shall I not include horses? <-- there should be a "generic horse set" (eGRVTS spinoff)
06:32<Pikka>giant horse set
06:32<@Alberth>geehs
06:32<Zuu>I hope it is a currency with high value of the money. I wouln't like to sell pizza if that was in the Swedish Krona. :-p
06:33<@Alberth>Zuu: doesn't matter, all costs scale in the same way :p
06:33<Celestar>not getting MUCH better with the timetable
06:34<@Alberth>there is an explanation how to do time tables at the wiki, I think
06:34<Zuu>I usually don't bother with timetables in OpenTTD. Its a job just to create a time table.
06:34<@Alberth>but I didnot have much luck with them either
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06:35<Zuu>I only use them to set a time for vehicles to stay in stations when I don't want to use full load.
06:37<Zuu>But to add a buffer, you need to first fill the timetable so that you get real travel times for the legs. Then you increase the time at stations (or legs) so that the total length is longer that the usual travel time. Now if a vehicle get delayed, it will have the ability to catch up by staying shorter at stations.
06:38<Zuu>Another task is to spread out the vehicles equally. This is something you have to do manually in OpenTTD. (there are patches to automate this, but none of them have been included in trunk)
06:39<drac_boy>zuu I don't know if this applies for you too or not but a simple trick for train spacing is to have signals far apart and/or just one platform at the end of route
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: manually set the timetable start times to be X days apart after you set a timetable
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: make sure the timetable is complete
06:40<drac_boy>sometimes for a small route thats long enough to need two trains but not much more I'll have it single line almost all way except for a short passing loop somewhere around in the middle
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06:42<@peter1138>once upon a time
06:42<@peter1138>someone once said
06:42<@peter1138>there'll never be horses in ottd
06:43<SpComb>longhorsesw.grf
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: here's how i tried to do that with two transrapid lines so they interleave properly at a merge: http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2029.%20Aug%202019.png
06:45<Flygon>There's tramsets with 5 car trams?
06:45<Flygon>Even nicer would be 10 car...
06:45<drac_boy>hi flygon
06:45*Flygon feeds drac_boy a Watermelon for some reason
06:45<drac_boy>no thanks :p
06:46*Flygon feeds drac_boy a Mango for some reason
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: that's GermanRV, but the scales are messed up somewhat. you get 2-tile sets that have almost the same size as 1-tile-sets
06:46<Flygon>Eddi: Wait... what?
06:46<frosch123>s/size/capacity/ probably
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: i meant capacity
06:46<Flygon>Oh
06:47<Flygon>...wow, derp
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/attachment.php?aid=4501
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>(signs on the right say: "Capacity" - "Length (1 Tile = 16)" - "Ratio")
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>because someone thought making the capacity "realistic" but the length not was a good idea, or something...
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=5656&pid=78671#pid78671
06:56<@peter1138>sorry it's all in german
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, if it was the RussianRV set, it might have been all in russian :p
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07:36<Eddi|zuHause>http://img4.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/img267e1sz4mrvcb.jpg
07:36<@peter1138>erm
07:36<andythenorth>schnow
07:36<andythenorth>bloawer
07:37<andythenorth>looks like a nu nu
07:37<@peter1138>damn you
07:37<@peter1138>that's what i was thinking of
07:37<@peter1138>but couldn't remember the name
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>what's a nunu?
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07:38<@peter1138>http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DXClJ223vYc/UI2CudY4pVI/AAAAAAAAB2M/sw2oBq9YUNs/s1600/noonoo.jpg
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>looks like a kids' tv show
07:40<@Alberth>It is, tele-tubbies iirc
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07:45<frosch123>yup, definitely teletubbies
07:45<frosch123>it's present in the tt-memory game of my nice
07:46<frosch123>hmm.... open tele tubbies deluxe?
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>don't tell V4530001!!
07:48<andythenorth>hmm
07:48<andythenorth>someone want to convert a load of FIRS properties for me?
07:48<andythenorth>I guess not :P
07:49<@Alberth>you didn't script it?
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08:01<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r24889 /trunk (5 files in 2 dirs) (2013-01-06 13:01:46 UTC)
08:01<@DorpsGek>-Fix-ish: extra GRF was built with "broken" grfcodec
08:02<@peter1138>:-)
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08:28*Zuu found a new addiciton in playing Settlers of Catan online.
08:28<Zuu>Only issue is that the service that I use don't insert a bot when someone leaves as they do when you play Ticket to ride online.
08:29<Zuu>Instead the game is stale and impossible to continue unless some kind user decide to join a half-played game.
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08:38<@Terkhen>bbl
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09:25<andythenorth>best / most compact way to check for list / tuple in python?
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09:26<SpComb>andythenorth: check what?
09:27<andythenorth>I have an attribute in scope, I want to see if I can safely call ','.join() on it
09:27<andythenorth>strings fail that for my case :P
09:28<SpComb>so you have a variable that's either a string or a list/tuple?
09:28<SpComb>or an iterator? generator? set? dict?
09:28<SpComb>distinguishing between strs and "lists" isn't strictly speaking possible, because all of them are iterable
09:30<andythenorth>I know
09:30<andythenorth>hence the issue
09:36<@Alberth>andythenorth: make a difference in some other way
09:37<@Alberth>ie in Python you should know what to expect
09:37<andythenorth>could work with known variable names
09:37<andythenorth>or call a different method
09:37<@Alberth>the latter is often used
09:38<@Alberth>or convert to a kwown structure
09:38<andythenorth>could assume everything is string :P
09:39<@Alberth>that's the TCL approach :p
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09:49<andythenorth>sorted
09:49<andythenorth>no magic :P
09:50<andythenorth>planetmaker: "nmlc warning: "lang/german.lng", line 62: Undefined command "SIGNED"' o_O
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: all the magic {} stuff should be the same as in english.lng
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's a simple typo, "{SIGNED WORD}" should be "{SIGNED_WORD}"
09:59<andythenorth>ta
10:00<andythenorth>will fix
10:00<andythenorth>being lazy, I hadn't even opened the file :P
10:00<andythenorth>outsourcing bug fixes :P
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, was about time i updated FIRS anyway :p
10:01<@peter1138>andythenorth, as if
10:01<Stimrol>I have a "stolen" idea for Game Script that I have not seen anyone make. But I don't have a clue how to make one.
10:01<andythenorth>I have loads of ideas
10:01<andythenorth>if you find a way to make them, let me know :)
10:01<Stimrol>:)
10:02<Stimrol>So I should just sit on my idea until I know how to make it :p
10:02<andythenorth>learn by doing?
10:03<andythenorth>hmm, need to template all my industry tiles.
10:03<andythenorth>dull task :P
10:03-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5153E72C.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
10:03<Stimrol>I dont have the slightes idea how it works and I don't even know what is the difference between NoGo and NoAi
10:04<Stimrol>+ I dont understand the documents :(
10:05<andythenorth>try making 'hello world' in squirrel first
10:05<andythenorth>or use Zuu's starter GS
10:06<Zuu>Stimrol: NoAI is for making AIs. NoGo is for making Game Scripts.
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the TutorialGS should be a tutorial for GS as well as a tutorial for the game :p
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10:06<Stimrol>andythenorth, the you have it Zuu starter, that is something that could help me, where is that available on the page?
10:07<Zuu>If you want to make a game script, its the NoGo API that you will use. However for historic reasons a lot of documentation on the wiki is written towards AI development.
10:07<andythenorth>Stimrol: in the AI / GS forum
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10:07<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=62163
10:07<Zuu>Stimrol: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=62163 <-- Minimal GS
10:07<Zuu>There you got it twice :-)
10:07<Stimrol>thanks, will look at it but only once :)
10:08<@Alberth>I doubt you understand it all at the first look :p
10:10<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: I don't know if the Tutorial GS is a good example on how to write a GS. It use a quite different way of laying out the logic than most other AIs and GSs that I've written. It defines "steps" which are class instances put in an array. Each step know how to perform that step.
10:10<Zuu>So the order of a tutorial is defined in a method that constructs a chapter array composed of all steps.
10:10<@Alberth>sounds very complicated as a first tutorial
10:11<Zuu>This is not very useful for most other GSs in my opition and indeed quite compilacted.
10:11<Zuu>If you don't know OOP, you'll be lost directly.
10:11<Stimrol>Alberth, that is so true, first I will extract to openttd/game/ along the library folder and that folder will then include /library and /Minimal GS
10:12<Zuu>right
10:12<Stimrol>first step in the right direction :)
10:13<@Alberth>Even if you do know OO, it is not the first thing you need for understanding a GS; it may be a good approach but then when you write something much larger
10:13<Zuu>You will need to get SuperLib also or change the minimal GS to not use SuperLib.
10:13<Zuu>SuperLib is basically a large collection of methods that I've collected over a few years. Most of it I've written myself, but there are also a few contributions from others.
10:14<Stimrol>ok, will get that
10:14<Zuu>If you don't want it. Remove line 22-30 and then replace the Log.Info calls to GSLog.Info and remove the last parameter.
10:15<andythenorth>hmm
10:15*andythenorth should learn GS
10:16<andythenorth>but....
10:16<andythenorth>yeah, not 27 hours in the day
10:16*andythenorth -> shops
10:16<Zuu>When you get SuperLib, check which version you download and update main.nut of your GS to use that version.
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10:16<Stimrol>is this sentence on the forum outdated --> SuperLib is not useful for players unless it is a dependency for an AI you want to use.
10:16<Zuu>In general I don't break backward compatibility, but if I do, it is mentioned in the forum thread.
10:17<Zuu>No, that is still accurate.
10:17<Zuu>Or well, it should mention GS to.
10:17<Zuu>I would go here to download gs libs btw: http://bananas.openttd.org/en/gslibrary/
10:17<Zuu>Click on the count to get the last version. Click on their name to go to their website/thread.
10:17<Stimrol>My first thought was, I am not going to think anything about AI only about goal, so should I skip SuperLib
10:18<Zuu>Ok, I'll update the first post of SuperLib thread to also mention GS
10:18<Stimrol>Yes I clicked the name and found this :)
10:18<@Alberth>you can, but it may mean you have to write some more code yourself
10:19<Stimrol>thanks, how know maybe I will succeed
10:23<Zuu>SuperLib is a middle layer above the API. If you want full control, leave it out and write all code yourself ontop of the API. My main motivation for creating SuperLib was that I at that time maintained 3 different scripts and didn't want to fix the same bug 3 times. As a bonus others can reuse that code too. :-)
10:24<Stimrol>Two questions: 1. do I extract superlib to the same location? 2. So I don't do something that is out there, but maybe not available. Is there a script to end game after some town is maybe 20.000 population?
10:24*drac_boy would be curious about that second question too :)
10:25<Zuu>SuperLib go to game/library
10:25<@Alberth>there is no overview of game scripts at the wiki yet
10:25<Zuu>You can fetch it via "online content" from OpenTTD if you want or download it manually.
10:25<@Alberth>(afaik)
10:25<Zuu>Alberth: Correct
10:26<Zuu>About a year ago I had the idea of doing something about the AI-focus on the wiki, but I've left that behind for now.
10:26<Stimrol>Zuu, probably best, then it will go to the right place
10:27<Stimrol>but I am guessing the answer is No to my second question, that means I will have to make it :D
10:27<Zuu>Correct
10:28<Zuu>Maybe the CityBuilder script have that.. Or CityDomination, but I still doubt it.
10:28<@Alberth>perhaps Stimrol or drac_boy can make an overview page?
10:28<Zuu>Both these two scripts have a lot more.
10:28<Zuu>Is drac_boy making a GS?
10:29<Stimrol>no either of them, I have checked. I was thinking maybe CityBuilder, but see no settings in it do do this
10:29<@Alberth>Zuu: he is at least interested in GS functionality, it seems
10:29<drac_boy>alberth and zuu unless it has anything to do with patch I can't help with writing it sorry :P
10:30<@Alberth>hmm, are you sure you're in the right channel then? :D
10:30<Zuu>Stimrol: A second option is to make a patch for one of the three town related GSs available.
10:30<Zuu>Speaking of which, I should upload my almost release ready version 6 of Neighbours are important somewhere.
10:31<Zuu>That being said, a simple GS that do just that may have its role too and may be useful for you as a starting point.
10:32<Zuu>Hmm, actually there is also City Growth Limiter which makes it 4 town related GSes :-)
10:33<Stimrol>yes I might learn something from it. But I was always looking at CityBuilder to see if it would include it.
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10:33<drac_boy>alberth...action 0 nfo would be relative to openttd too isn't it? ;)
10:33<drac_boy>heh heh
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10:34<@Alberth>nfo has too many numbers for me :(
10:34<drac_boy>heh heh
10:35<@Alberth>I can do assembly language just fine, but pure numbers... I get constantly lost where a new primitive starts
10:36<Flygon>Can you do 68k?
10:36<Flygon>If so
10:36<Flygon>You could make a carrier out of the Mega Drive :D
10:38<@Alberth>68K was easy, loads of registers :)
10:39<@Alberth>nice 32 bit registers....
10:43<Flygon>I really do like 68k myself
10:43<Flygon>Very easy to work with
10:43<Flygon>Which didn't help my impression of Java when the Uni shoved me into a course involving it
10:47<@Alberth>Java is multi-platform, which is about the only thing it got right
10:48<@peter1138>hah
10:49<@Alberth>otherwise, it is mainly just very old and stuck in its way of doing things
10:49*drac_boy actually runs java alot tbh
10:49<@Alberth>running is fine, just don't write programs in it :p
10:50<drac_boy>:p
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10:55<Stimrol>Java made mister Notch filty rich
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10:56<Stimrol>zuu, can MinimalGS be loaded unchanged, and does it do anything at all?
10:57<Zuu>If you have SuperLib 24 for NoGo, it can be loaded unchanged
10:57<Stimrol>i got 27
10:57<Zuu>It should appear in the list of installed GSes even if you don't have SuperLib 24.
10:57<Zuu>You can just change main.nut to refer to version 27 instead of version 24.
10:57<Zuu>(main.nut of Minimal GS)
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11:04<Zuu>IIRC, Minimal GS will display a news message saying "Hello World" upon starting a new single player game.
11:05<Stimrol>ok then it seems to be working :)
11:05<Zuu>It will also print some lines to the log. (which you find under the help menu to the very right of the main toolbar)
11:05<Stimrol>now to start the changes and do my brakeing of it
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11:05<Zuu>To enhance the AI/GS debug window you may want to set gui.ai_developer_tools to 1.
11:06<Stimrol>API compatability script not found and game saved is in the log now
11:06<Zuu>This is done either by "set gui.ai_developer_tools 1" in the console but preferable by editing opentttd.cfg when OpenTTD is not running to make it persistant.
11:09<Stimrol>is it so I can pause it and more
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11:10<Zuu>Stimrol: How do you mean by pause it?
11:12<Stimrol>it added some "pause on" line then I can type something there
11:14<Zuu>Yep, type a search string there. Whenever a log message from the GS matches this search string, the script will be paused.
11:15<Zuu>Both the game + script get paused. But you can then unpause just the game but not the GS if you want.
11:15<Zuu>There is also the option to call GSController.Break("my message") to trigger the script+game to get paused.
11:16<Zuu>This also only work if the mentioned _tools setting is enabled.
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11:16<Stimrol>yes the ai_developer_tools
11:16<Zuu>It might be that GSController.Break need 1.3 beta or a nightly to work.
11:16<Stimrol>thanks
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11:17<Stimrol>I am useing that one, thanks to my translation work earlier
11:17<Stimrol>using*
11:17<Zuu>Regarding the missing compatibility layer, that is a bug in our scripts to build OpenTTD distributions. I currently look at fixing that. :-)
11:20<andythenorth>hmm
11:21<Zuu>andythenorth: Yes a NewGRF author that also makes GSes would be cool :-)
11:21<andythenorth>well there's frosch123 ;)
11:21<Stimrol>the program chrashed if I change the version to like 0.1
11:21<Zuu>Where did you set this version?
11:21<Stimrol>version.nut
11:21<Zuu>1. Only integer versions are allowed
11:22<Stimrol>SELF_VERSION <- 1;
11:22<Zuu>2. However, OpenTTD shouln't crash on a such error, which is a bug.
11:22<andythenorth>Zuu: if I get FIRS, FISH 2, and BANDIT done...maybe GS
11:22<Stimrol>no not chrash, sorry error
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>hm, ship vs. tunnel clipping: maybe the method i used in CETS could be used? i.e. just cut off some parts of the sprite when approaching a tunnel entrance?
11:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: proposing ship tunnels? o_O
11:23<andythenorth>max height for ships? :P
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>not me... just picking up on a discussion
11:23<Zuu>Stimrol: Just get over point releses and stick to integer version numbers. :-)
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'm not trying to solve "ship fits in the tunnel", just "ship doesn't stick out of the ground behind the tunnel entrance"
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11:24<Stimrol>ok explains the versioning of like CityBuilder 49
11:24<Zuu>Some just use the revision number from their version control as the scipt version.
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11:25<Zuu>I increase it by one at each release, but as said, some may jump several numbers from one release to another because they have made several commits to their version control system.
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: ship can [not] go through tunnels might become an action0 flag
11:27<andythenorth>gives something back to canal boats eh?
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>"Exercise 2.4: write LOOP-programs for the functions in exercise 1.1 and 2.2"... well this should be fun
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11:34<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: Are you taking a programming course?
11:35<andythenorth>bridge limits on ships?
11:35<andythenorth>griefing op :)
11:36<Zuu>"This ship weight to much to go over bridge"
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11:36<drac_boy>zuu even subtracting the water weight? ;)
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11:36<andythenorth>hmm, why am I dicking around templating action 0 props in for industry cargos
11:36<andythenorth>could use the cb
11:36<andythenorth>does the cb handle the tile as well? :o
11:36<andythenorth>that would be a faux pas :P
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: no, i'm preparing for exam in recusion theory
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>*recursion
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>the "loop language" is a very primitive language
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>designed to represent primitive recursive functions
11:38<Zuu>ok
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>you have the commands "INPUT X", "OUTPUT X", "X=0", "X=X+1", "X=Y" and "LOOP X"
11:39<Zuu>drac_boy: Oh right, didn't think about that part of physics. :-D
11:39<Stimrol>I am full of stupid questions, how do I look like into GSText and for example find STR_HELLO_WORLD just to see how this works
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>where INPUT must be the first command and OUTPUT the last
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>now write "f(x,y) = x-y" with that ;)
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11:42<Eddi|zuHause>("LOOP X: A; END" repeats A X times)
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11:44<Eddi|zuHause>so e.g. x+y would be: "INPUT X,Y; LOOP X: Y=Y+1; END; OUTPUT Y"
11:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r24890 /trunk (3 files in 3 dirs) (2013-01-06 16:44:15 UTC)
11:44<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Distribute GS compat_<version>.nut with OpenTTD
11:45<Zuu>Stimrol: See lang/english.txt
11:45<Zuu>The content of that file uses the same format as translations in OpenTTD which you should be familar with ;-)
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: the funny thing about ship weight is that a ship weighs exactly as much as the water it disperses, so the weight on a bridge (or a ship lift) doesn't change with the ship entering
11:46<Zuu>Just that there is no web frontend for doing translations for Game Scripts.
11:46<Stimrol>nice, thanks
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11:47<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: Yep, I realized that after drac_boy commented on my wrong logic.
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: you just have to make sure the water level doesn't change much
11:48<Zuu>The only added weight to the bridge is if you use a crane to drop a ship into it, then the water that is dispressed will mostly end up in the canal, but a slight bit of it could add to raising the water level of the bridge.
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>well, it could rain, or dry up, so you need some kind of balance mechanism for the whole channel
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>i think in a documentation about the ship lift in Niederfinow they said they can operate on a variation up to 4cm, beyond that they have to stop
11:50<drac_boy>logic reminds me of Spock
11:50<drac_boy>'illogical yet true...hm'
11:51<andythenorth>we should give GS capability to 'build' water
11:51<andythenorth>simulating occasional floods
11:51<andythenorth>also swamps :P
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>this is Niederfinow: http://www.stuellein.de/bilder/SHW-l-g.jpg
11:51<drac_boy>swamps would need a new kind of tile anyway
11:51<drac_boy>not buildable dry land but not sailable water neither
11:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yes we need that
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11:52<andythenorth>'need' :P
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well... statemachines... :)
11:52<Zuu>... and triggering a santa claus effect vehicle that fly over the game. :-p
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: disaster vehicle :)
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11:57<Zuu>When do we get NewEffectVehicles or NewDisasters?
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>after roadtypes and custombridgeheads ;)
11:58<Zuu>so before NewGRF airports :-)
11:58<andythenorth>and maybe before or after vehicle Views
11:58<frosch123>i would currently put NewEffectVehicles way before all of that :p
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: potentially disasters also need statemachines? :)
11:58<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i dropped the idea for statemachines for effect vehicles :p
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: so just put an animation state and let the grf figure out the rest?
12:00<andythenorth>'just' force one spritegroup per animation frame
12:00<andythenorth>simples :P
12:01<frosch123>"spritegroup" is of no use; for samegames you need something persistent
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12:02<lemming>hi
12:03<V453000>lemmings
12:03<lemming>in my towns status i read that the town doesn't grow
12:04<V453000>nuke it
12:04<lemming>do you have any hint?
12:04<andythenorth>use the cheat menu
12:04<V453000>issue is?
12:04<V453000>you want it to grow
12:05<lemming>yes, i want it to grow
12:05<Stimrol>Zuu, hehe who am I trying to fool
12:05<andythenorth>oops, misread the question sorry :P
12:06<frosch123>lemming: http://wiki.openttd.org/Towns#Town_Growth http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2037/ <-- someone want to doublecheck?
12:07<frosch123>what's that?
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>the primitive loop-language
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>calculating x-y
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>i hope
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12:10<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: It will output "X-1". Eg if you enter X:=5; Y := 7; it will then output X = 4
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12:10<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: you sure?
12:10<Zuu>Assuming "Loop X" means to iterate X times
12:11<Zuu>Y is never used from what I can see.
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and the LOOP Y will calculate X=X-1 Y times
12:11<Zuu>Oh, right
12:11<frosch123>yeah, but it only handles non-negative stuff
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is intended :)
12:12<frosch123>"intended"?
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>functions are |N^k->|N
12:12<frosch123>or "known"?
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>so 1-2=0
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12:15<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the lecture actually uses - with a dot above it, to explicitly differentiate it from the "normal" -
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12:17<Eddi|zuHause>now the interesting bits: quot(x,y) = x/y (rounded down) if y>0, 0 else; prim(x) = 1 if x is prime, 0 else and p(x) = (x+1)st prime number (p(0)=2, p(1)=3, etc.)
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12:18<Eddi|zuHause>written in this language :)
12:19<frosch123>luckily performance does not seem to matter
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12:19<Eddi|zuHause>no, but later in the lecture the number of nested loops does :)
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12:33<Eddi|zuHause>the funniest theorem in that lecture: "if you can calculate the runtime of the function, the rest of the program can be run with two nested loops"
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12:53<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i'm always not entirely sure... http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2038/
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>anyone have an interpreter for this language? :)
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12:55<frosch123>write a awk script to transform the stuff into a awk script
12:56<frosch123>hmm, don't you have procedure calls?
12:56<frosch123>and equal comparators?
12:56<frosch123>why are you not using your earlier sub in quot/rem?
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>it's not defined, but of course one could add it :)
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>it's the "lazy solution" :)
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13:04<Eddi|zuHause>"small_font = C:\WIN98SE\fonts\Tahoma.ttf" *shudder*
13:04<@Alberth>a few sed lines to transform to python? :)
13:07<@peter1138>C:\WIN98SE S
13:07<@peter1138>:S
13:11<frosch123>i used that windows version longer than any other
13:11<frosch123>hmm, though i am not sure how long i used 3.11
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13:14<frosch123>hmm, i guess win 3.11 does not count... there was almost nothing which needed it
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>solitaire!!
13:16<frosch123>reversi if at all
13:16<frosch123>though it was buggy
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>you needed win3.1 if you wanted to run north&south at sensible speed
13:17<frosch123>hmm, or was reversi only in 3.0? and was removed in 3.1 because of its buggyness?
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>i've never had a reversi game in win3.1
13:17<frosch123>yeah, then it was .30
13:17<frosch123>3.0
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>i had wzebra (or so) a lot later
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>and i had a "othello" dos game
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13:19<Eddi|zuHause>did civ2 run under win3.1, or was that win95 already?
13:19<frosch123>i only had civ1
13:20<frosch123>which was dos :)
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>i tried to run it in wine, but it had sound-scratches and crashed quickly
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>i broke my civ1 trying to patch it with an english-language patch
13:21<__ln__>i ran civ2 in Win-OS/2
13:21<frosch123>hmm, i wrote a unit editor for civ1
13:21<frosch123>i think i replaced the militia with a intercontinental with range 255
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>i modified the colonization data files a lot
13:22<frosch123>do kids still do such stuff with today's games?
13:22<frosch123>or do they only cheat in online games?
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>there are millions of user mods for civ4 and civ5
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>like "remove the one-unit-per-tile restriction of civ5" and stuff
13:23<frosch123>hmm, true.. the games got interfaces for extensions
13:23<frosch123>starting from hl
13:24<Stimrol>I think this goal script would be so much easier if there was a example script putting as Goal to arrive at first station and make that goal show in "current goal"
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't tried modding civ5 yet, but in civ4 you had 3 levels of mods, xml-mods, python-mods and c++-mods
13:25<Stimrol>my hairs are starting to fall off by tearing it
13:37<Stimrol>If I ever manage to do this my first GS will be named "example goal script"
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>whatever your first GS is, you will want to throw it into the bin and rewrite it from scratch before showing anyone :p
13:44<Stimrol>no I will be so proud that I could do one, place HQ, vehicle arrives at first station
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24891 /trunk/src/lang (6 files in 2 dirs) (2013-01-06 18:45:33 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>simplified_chinese - 3 changes by chenwt0315
13:45<@DorpsGek>esperanto - 37 changes by ernie13
13:45<@DorpsGek>icelandic - 107 changes by Stimrol
13:45<@DorpsGek>luxembourgish - 41 changes by Phreeze
13:45<@DorpsGek>serbian - 59 changes by voodoo84
13:45<@DorpsGek>thai - 7 changes by kenny
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14:15<Supercheese>Mornin'
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14:19<Stimrol>are there still error is the language files, asking because there is no new trunk showing up on homepage?
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14:29<francesco_>!list
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14:30<@peter1138>yeah you do that
14:31<Supercheese>So for bridges-above-stations, if a grf "incorrectly" allows bridges over a station tile that is "too high", I wonder what kind of sprite errors would result...
14:31<Supercheese>i.e. bridge through a building
14:34<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24892 trunk/Makefile.bundle.in (2013-01-06 19:34:13 UTC)
14:34<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r24890): Missing mkdir
14:36<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/stbr4.png
14:36<@peter1138>erm
14:36<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/stbr5.png
14:36<@peter1138>nothing major really
14:36<@peter1138>the sprite sorter's done an amazing job
14:37<Supercheese>Yep, bridge-through-building
14:37*Supercheese realizes he's never used an aqueduct, ever
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14:40<frosch123>Stimrol: nightly will likely take another 23 mintues
14:42<Stimrol>frosch123, was just wondering because of some errors in icelandic last night, thinking if they where still there
14:43<frosch123>no, currently there are no translation errors
14:46<andythenorth>herp, just when CHIPS has no open issues, peter1138 goes and extends the station spec :P
14:47<Supercheese>:D
14:47<andythenorth>it's like a game
14:47<andythenorth>just when I get close to 'done' on a grf, something new comes along :P
14:47<Supercheese>Indeed
14:47<andythenorth>like autorefit
14:47<andythenorth>and smoke
14:48<Supercheese>Stuff just keeps getting better and better
14:49<andythenorth>hmm
14:49<andythenorth>isn't this sticky in Suggestions forum totally pointless? "Use OpenTTD Wiki for commonly asked for suggestions"
14:49<andythenorth>it's a dead thread linking to a dead page
14:49<frosch123>every year someone updated the wiki
14:50<andythenorth>now they updated it to empty :)
14:50<andythenorth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Index.php/Suggestions
14:50<andythenorth>also http://wiki.openttd.org/Index.php/Requested_features
14:51<andythenorth>is linked and dead
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>that must be some really ancient link if it still contains index.php
14:51<frosch123>andythenorth: that's just the link
14:51<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Suggestions
14:51<frosch123>remove the "index.php/" part
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>just delete that part and try again
14:52<andythenorth>hmm, I can't edit that post - not a mod :P
14:52<frosch123>but yeah, pm should fix the links :)
14:52<frosch123>but otoh, noone complained :p
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14:52<andythenorth>how funny, having a meaningless 'progress' page :)
14:53<andythenorth>it's a bit like a long table of public lies :)
14:53<frosch123>planetmaker: do you see the "new title screen" suggestion in that list? :p
14:53<Supercheese>You've accurately described 'progressivism', andy
14:54<andythenorth>hmm
14:54<andythenorth>new to me :P
14:55<Supercheese>;)
14:55<frosch123>andythenorth: still the best page is http://wiki.openttd.org/Roadmap
14:56<Supercheese>" 1.1.0: There is no idea what is going to be in 1.1.0. "
14:56<@Alberth>I like how things in trunk are not removed from the suggested features :p
14:56<andythenorth>yay
14:56<andythenorth>erp, I hate wiki format
14:56<andythenorth>otherwise I'd go on a deletion spree
14:56<andythenorth>but that would probably get reverted
14:57<andythenorth>for damaging valuable information
14:57<@Alberth>I don't see the value of keeping that old stuff either
14:57<andythenorth>people like kibble
14:57<andythenorth>someone probably finds it comforting
14:57<andythenorth>"omfg you deleted the roadmap, the sky is falling"
14:58<andythenorth>hmm, is there some kind of correct way to delete a whole page?
14:58<Zuu>You could start by atting a note about it being outdated.
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>aren't you like 2 weeks late for that? :p
14:58<Zuu>IIRC {Note|My note text|}
14:58<@Alberth>Zuu: what good does that do? There are pages out of date for 2 years or more now
15:00<andythenorth>rm them
15:00<andythenorth>nothing as good as deleting
15:00<Zuu>If you want to keep it for some historic reason. Otherwise, remove them.
15:00<frosch123>there is a difference between historic content and useless content :)
15:00<frosch123>useless content was already useless when it was still up to date
15:01<@planetmaker>hm.... I did never notice it in there :-)
15:01<frosch123>i think i even looked up some information on some old settings pages wrt. setting which were removed somewhen ago
15:02<frosch123>so, some old wiki pages are like a svn repository
15:02<@Alberth>pages about a gui rewrite? the 32bpp ez pages?
15:02<frosch123>useless pages otoh are useless independent of their age
15:03<@Alberth>that cannot be true, its author thought it was important at least
15:04<frosch123>anyway, personally i think removing stuff is never worth the effort
15:04<@Alberth>just re-install from scratch :p
15:05<frosch123>[21:03] <Alberth> that cannot be true, its author thought it was important at least <- maybe the author was misinfomred? :)
15:05<frosch123>to give an example: two days ago someone translated the page descibing the difficutly settigns :)
15:06<@Alberth>that's making historic content available for a bigger audience :p
15:07<frosch123>Stimrol: nightly is available now btw
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: well that page is still useful for people using 1.2.3 (current stable)
15:10<V453000>people using 1.2.3 shouldnt exist in the first place
15:10<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1060492#p1060492 <- awesome
15:10<@peter1138>http://wiki.openttd.org/SpriteLoader
15:11<frosch123>ottd is too complicated, installing newgrf in ttdp is easier, i want to pay someone to update ttdp
15:12<frosch123>peter1138: who did you write that page for?
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15:15<@peter1138>obsolete stuff :p
15:15<@peter1138>png loader
15:15<@peter1138>yeah
15:15<frosch123>i just wonder about the audience
15:15<@peter1138>dunno
15:15<@peter1138>nobody really
15:15<__ln__>does ottd already implement even most of the stuff that ttdpatch does?
15:16<@peter1138>most, i think yes
15:17<@Alberth>frosch123: haha, reminds me of a window manager that you could configure by changing a source file and re-compiling/restarting :p
15:17<@peter1138>there's no low memory version of openttd!
15:17<@peter1138>abandoned roads? never knew that existed
15:17<@peter1138>restrictive signals
15:17<@peter1138>programmable signals (are they don't the same?)
15:17<frosch123>we have a spritecache size setting though
15:18<@peter1138>oh yes
15:18<Rubidium>so... when are they going to upgrade Berlin Tegel airport?
15:18<frosch123>restrictive signals is the useful thing, while programmable signal is the useless thing
15:18<@peter1138>mmm
15:19<@peter1138>i always thought that restrictions would be better placed in waypoints, but that was just me
15:19<@peter1138>especially as they already have off-map stuff
15:19<frosch123>the ttdp guys always argue about diagonal tracks :)
15:19<@peter1138>Automatic creation of presignal setups
15:19<@peter1138>well that's useless
15:19<Zuu>also they would argue about not having enough space for waypoints.
15:20<frosch123>Zuu: ttdp has waypoints; 1xn stations automatically act like waypoints
15:20<frosch123>you cannot have stations with platformlength 1 in ttdp though
15:20<@peter1138>really?
15:20<frosch123>otoh, you can have stations up to size 255x255 in ttdp (the whole map), while ottd only allows 64x64
15:21<frosch123>peter1138: afaik 1xn implies non-stop waypoint
15:21<Zuu>I meant that users tend to complain that their junctions infront of their stations are so cramped that they can't fit in a 1 tile waypoint into their layout. At least as soon as someone propose a waypoint solution to any thing ranging from restrictions to counting trains etc.
15:22<frosch123>ah yeah, well maybe the restrictions should jsut apply to station platforms :)
15:22<frosch123>and waypoints
15:22<frosch123>due to pbs there are no signals in front of the platform anyway
15:22<frosch123>so it makes a lot more sense to assign stuff to the platform than to some weird signal
15:23<Zuu>right
15:24<@peter1138>~25 different town growth controls
15:24<@peter1138>yeah we need that
15:24<frosch123>we have gs
15:24<@peter1138>and tai
15:24<Zuu>We have 4 town related GSes already on bananas.
15:25<andythenorth>I always build PBS signals in front of platforms
15:25<andythenorth>am I doing it wrong? :P
15:25<frosch123>but yes, the town growth settings already annoyed me in 2004 when i was playing ttdp :)
15:25<@peter1138>andythenorth, i do too
15:25<@peter1138>also
15:25<andythenorth>there is some voodoo reason I do it
15:25<@peter1138>we have one major thing over ttdp
15:25<@peter1138>developers
15:25<frosch123>do we? :p
15:25<andythenorth>all they do is bitch no?
15:25<@peter1138>yes andy
15:25<andythenorth>hrm
15:25<andythenorth>we have people with commit rights
15:25<@peter1138>or reminisce
15:25<andythenorth>and some of them are on irc
15:26<andythenorth>is that developers?
15:26<@peter1138>anyway i always place signals by stations, cos that's how it always was :p
15:26*andythenorth wonders how non-native-english speakers know when andythenorth is serious and when not :P
15:26<andythenorth>english people have trouble with it
15:27<@peter1138>andythenorth, we just always assume you're joking
15:27<andythenorth>that's goo
15:27<andythenorth>d
15:27<@peter1138>"i've given up firs"
15:27<andythenorth>our wikipedia entry says NewObjects are not NewGRFs
15:27<andythenorth>I have given up FIRS a few times.
15:27<andythenorth>it's like giving up smoking :P
15:27<andythenorth>only I don't smoke
15:28<Eddi|zuHause> <__ln__> does ottd already implement even most of the stuff that ttdpatch does? <-- that depends on your metric i suppose
15:28<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenTTD
15:28<Zuu>andythenorth: Ah you mean our wikipedia article. I read it some days ago and noticed the things it got wrong, but didn't feel like correcting it.
15:28<@peter1138>andythenorth, fix it
15:29<Superuser>OpenTTD supports extensive modification for both single player and multiplayer games. Modifications come in the form of a "NewGRF" (New Graphics Resource File) and "NewObjects". NewGRFs package both new graphics (2D sprites) and the computer code which describes how the new graphics should be used. Many aspects of the game can be altered by NewGRFs; a NewGRF can introduce a complete new set of vehicles, new industries
15:29<Superuser>and the cargoes they produce, new town buildings, new rail graphics and behaviour, etc. NewObjects are eye-candy that contribute new graphics, but do not include any code that alters any game play. NewGRFs and NewObjects, along with heightmaps, scenarios and custom AIs, can be downloaded and installed using the "BaNaNaS" in-game online content system.[20]
15:29<andythenorth>nah, complaining is easier
15:29<Superuser>the quote itself
15:29<Supercheese>'tis a wiki
15:29<Supercheese>anyone can fix it, no? :P
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15:30<drac_boy>hi
15:31<frosch123>why does it have two screenshots?
15:31<Zuu>One for 1.1 and one for 1.2
15:32<Zuu>The someone who added the 1.2 screenshot perhaps didn't felt like removing the old one.
15:32<frosch123>anyway, most fun in that article have always been the cited scientific papers
15:32<frosch123>which are obviously wrong
15:34<Supercheese>Query: the preferred method to "disable" vehicles by parameter is to check if (param_disable == 1) and set "climates_available: NO_CLIMATE;" , yes?
15:35<frosch123>yes
15:35<@peter1138>just skip the whole definition :p
15:35<frosch123>no, that causes trouble if there are still built vehicles in the game
15:35<Supercheese>If a user for some dumb reason decides to change the param... yeah that
15:36<Supercheese>ninja'd
15:37<Eddi|zuHause><Rubidium> so... when are they going to upgrade Berlin Tegel airport? <-- lmao :p
15:37<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: why?
15:38<Zuu>Perhaps NewGRFs should have the same capability as AIs and GSes to define per setting if changing it in-game is allowed or not?
15:38<@peter1138>tell you what
15:38<@peter1138>it's a good job that i never write newgrf
15:38<Rubidium>the airport is pretty much over capacity, and there aren't any reasons to believe anything else will solve that congestion issue any time soon
15:39<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, i don't get it :(
15:39<@peter1138>oh
15:40<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> i always thought that restrictions would be better placed in waypoints, but that was just me <-- i agree, especially with pathsignals often not being in places where you need restrictions, but that brings us back to the proplem that waypoints sometimes don't fit into the layout
15:40<andythenorth>peter1138: lies, you just wrote a lot of CHIPS :P
15:41<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, i could reinstate my diagonal stations patch
15:41<@peter1138>(as waypoints are stations now)
15:41<@peter1138>andythenorth, yeah but i got it wrong first :p
15:42<@peter1138>in my defense, the spec for advanced layouts is missing from the wiki
15:42<drac_boy>can you use property 21 to call up action2 for something like 'if coal=>0 then use coal else if ore=>0 then use ore else skip' in simple term?
15:42<andythenorth>diagonal stationals ? o_O
15:42<drac_boy>regarding industries
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: well, the short story, Tegel was supposed to be closed last summer (or the summer before that), but the new airport (near schönefeld) was not ready
15:42<@peter1138>andythenorth, "i've got a patch for that"
15:43<andythenorth>who had stations on slopes? Wolf01 ?
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15:43<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: so now everybody laughs about berlin not managing to build an airport
15:43<@peter1138>heh
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>like Hamburg doesn't manage to build a philarmony
15:43<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/diagstations.png
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>or Stuttgart doesn't manage to build a train station
15:44<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I know, but statistically that airport will never open. Each time they push the "open date" by more than the time that has passed since the previous push
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>and the next one will be München trying to build an S-Bahn tunnel :)
15:44<Supercheese>Oh jeez, vocabulary fail: what's the term for a link to a lower part of the same page, e.g. page.php#link
15:44<__ln__>anchor?
15:44<@peter1138>that was r2673, btw
15:45<drac_boy>supercheese, anchors .. but I really hate them...breaks navigation not to mention that href="#" is invalid as well
15:45<@peter1138>+static const uint32 _reachable_tracks[4] = { 0x10091009, 0x00160016, 0x05200520, 0x2A002A00, };
15:45<drac_boy>just saying :/
15:45<@peter1138>gosh
15:45<@peter1138>i really wrote that :p
15:45<@peter1138>i wonder what it meant
15:45<Supercheese>so, "anchor link"?
15:45<Supercheese>"internal link"?
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: don't we have functions for that?
15:45<Supercheese>"internal anchor link"?
15:46<__ln__>i think Tegel is quite nice, except their lack of rail connection
15:46<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, not in r2673
15:46<drac_boy>href="javascript:void" is more valid but some people wouldn't listen tho
15:46<frosch123>4 digit revisions :)
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: tegel was planned to get another terminal mirrored to the one it has, and that plan included a subway station. but it was never built
15:46<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, back then the map array was touched directly all over the place, for example
15:47<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I don't think so; I remember there being * 0x101 all over the code. This is more like * 0x10001
15:47-!-supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-66-108-51-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
15:47<supermop>hi
15:47<drac_boy>hi supermop
15:47<@peter1138>awesome
15:47<supermop>how's it going?
15:47<@peter1138>that same data is duplicated in station_cmd & train_cmd :D
15:48<Rubidium>and both TXL and SXF are a nightmare to get to; TXL by public transport, SXF by plane
15:48<drac_boy>doing ok supermop..just wishing I could understand property 21 yet but :p
15:48<@peter1138>hmm, i added 6 new station tile types
15:49<@peter1138>so i guess i catered for 2 tiles on 1 track too
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: well schönefeld was supposed to take over all links from tegel, plus the ones it has now, plus some epsilon by becoming the central airport for airberlin
15:49<Rubidium>like I need two busses to get from the plane to a train/tram/subway for TXL
15:50<@peter1138>i wonder how those newgrf varactions would cope, wanting platform length etc
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i think there's a direct shuttle bus somewhere
15:50<__ln__>Rubidium: not true
15:51<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: if only it was... but first I need a shuttle bus for literally 100 meter from the aircraft to the terminal...
15:51<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/diagstations3.png
15:51<@peter1138>oooh yeah
15:51<__ln__>there's a direct bus from the Zoologischer Garten and, i think also Hauptbahnhof.
15:52<Rubidium>peter1138: what about platforms with infinite length?
15:52<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/diagstations2.png
15:52<@peter1138>^ yeah
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: must be a bad landing spot (or terminal C or something). usually you'd dock directly at the central terminal with a gangway
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>i never actually went from or to tegel, only ever picked people up there
15:53<Rubidium>it's the case for 100% of the landings there
15:53<frosch123>peter1138: the platforms in 2 are quite long :)
15:54<@peter1138>sprite sorting those diagonal parts was quirky i tell you
15:54<@peter1138>frosch123, somewhat :)
15:54<@peter1138>frosch123, or very short, cos, you know, 90° bends
15:54<__ln__>i've flown twice from tegel, though never landed there
15:54<@planetmaker>how old are those screenshots, peter1138 ?
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: circular platforms don't seem to be a very bright idea :p
15:55<Rubidium>planetmaker: I'd reckon the pre-Rubidium era ;)
15:55<@peter1138>planetmaker, r2673
15:55<@planetmaker>:D
15:55<@peter1138>artwork was sponsored by Born_Acorn
15:55<@peter1138>back then we had hackykid's pbs
15:56<@planetmaker>oi
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15:56<@peter1138>?
15:56<@peter1138>oh god, my original bridges over tracks patch
15:57<@peter1138>what a mess that was
15:57<supermop>what's this diagonal station nostalgia about?
15:57<frosch123>hmm, i remember some merge-unmerge-bridge-over-everything-drama
15:58<@peter1138>no
15:58<@peter1138>tron did bridges-over-everything in a branch
15:58<frosch123>was likely later
15:58<@peter1138>and then left it
15:58<@peter1138>it got finished off and merged
15:58<@peter1138>then he complained, but i don't think it was unmerged
15:59<frosch123>it was merged, unmerged, and merged again a month later or so
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it was actually ripped out again because of tron complaining that Celestar went ahead and merged it before it was "ready"
16:00<@peter1138>heh
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>that was pre-0.5
16:00<@peter1138>r8038 :-)
16:00<@peter1138>(is not that, but is c++)
16:00<@peter1138>tron hated the makefile rewrite too
16:00<@peter1138>bsd users, pff
16:01<+glx>he hated a lot of things :)
16:01<@peter1138>(i jest, i liked tron)
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>i actually have a port of the bridge branch to the miniin
16:01<+glx>like the commit message style
16:02<@peter1138>there we go
16:02<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=25474
16:02<@peter1138>r5070
16:02<@peter1138>r5155
16:03<@peter1138>tron loved simplifying code and hated me added newgrf stuff
16:05<frosch123>70 commits in 5 days :)
16:05<frosch123>err, 80 even
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>that thread is lovely... people being so excited about a feature that is just "wait, that was ever different?"
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>+nowadays
16:07<Superuser>ANYONE HERE BUILT THEIR OWN PC?
16:08<@peter1138>anyone here _not_ build their own pc?
16:08<frosch123>years ago
16:08<drac_boy>YES, WHAT YOU WANT KNOW?
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>i made a 4-bit ALU in VHDL once, does that count?
16:08<drac_boy>:p
16:08<frosch123>well, ok, it depends on what level you build it :)
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>what level of detail for "build" do you expect? :p
16:09<drac_boy>supercheese btw I hope its not about itx systems tho
16:09<Superuser>https://pastee.org/kf7f6
16:09<Superuser>EVALUATE MY RIG
16:09<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/bridgehead1.png
16:09<@peter1138>..
16:09<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/bridgehead4.png
16:09<@peter1138>(2 & 3 also)
16:09<@peter1138>2 looks more like a road junction heh
16:09<drac_boy>superuser tbh I would throw out all six lines there :/
16:09<@peter1138>ahhh, nostalgia
16:10<Superuser>why you hating drac_boy?
16:10<frosch123>oh, it took 6 months to remerge it
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: so you didn't actually solve the problem of the foundation showing through
16:10<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, i did, just not there
16:10<Zuu>Superuser: It all depends on what your budget is and what you plan to use it for.
16:11<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, it's fixed in 3
16:11<drac_boy>superuser you want know what I have built several times so far which is still inexpensive but better than that vague list of yours?
16:11<frosch123>r7573
16:11<Superuser>I was careful to select hardware from linux-friendly vendors
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: but it has no fence there :)
16:11<@peter1138>frosch123, that was a long time, wow
16:11<Superuser>and relatively cutting-edge
16:12<drac_boy>superuser tbh 'linux-friend' means nothing
16:12<Zuu>Superuser: Do you plan to play any game than need 3D performance?
16:12<Superuser>but still quite cheap and will last me a while, will be fine for most games
16:12<Superuser>yes...
16:12<@peter1138>geforce 400 series (very vague)
16:12<@Terkhen>Superuser: if you plan to use it for modern games I don't think that a geforce 400 is going to last for "a while", for certain definitions of "a while"... if you don't, you may consider to save some bucks by just using the graphics card included with the processor
16:12<Superuser>highed end
16:12<@peter1138>for modern games, an i3 isn't either
16:12<Zuu>If not playing 3D, don't spend money on that, and put that money elsewhere.
16:12<Superuser>oh no, of course not, I get along with minimum specs on any game
16:13<Superuser>I've played at 10-20fps for most games for years
16:13<Superuser>always had cheap PCs
16:13<@Terkhen>I guess that you can call nvidia's binary blob driver "linux friendly" in comparison with other manufacturers, but I wouldn't call it linux friendly
16:13<Superuser>well, unfortunately they provide very good drivers
16:13<Superuser>that is a downside though Terkhen, I agree
16:13<@Terkhen>yeah... good drivers, except when you are stuck with optimus
16:13<Superuser>ATI is no better though
16:14<drac_boy>2.8ghz, quadro graphics, 16gb ram (with space to double that in future), matx board, etc .. thats the short of my spec I've done for a while
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16:14<@Terkhen>google linus' "f*** you nvidia" for details about nvidia's linux friendliness WRT optimus
16:14<Superuser>as for purchasing RAM... does price matter?
16:14<Superuser>I follow Linux news very closely Terkhen, thanks
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>Superuser: the (AMD) onboard graphics of my Gigabyte board work perfectly fine unless you're into "ZOMG FRAMERATE" shooters
16:14<@peter1138>quadro is pointless
16:14<Superuser>http://tuxmachines.org <-- great site, put this in your feed
16:15<@Terkhen>okay, I was just surprised about that :P
16:15<Zuu>additionally, not having a high-end graphics card will save on your electricity bill.
16:15<Superuser>I am though Eddi, 'arena shooter' is my middle name ;)
16:15<Superuser>actually the reason I went for i3 is because it is relatively low poer
16:16<Superuser>and still x86
16:16<@peter1138>not that useful
16:16<Zuu>Though, my i7 probably contribute a fair bit to my 90 watts idle. :-)
16:16<@peter1138>the motherboard, HDD and GPU will still consume tons of power
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>what sort of problem do you expect from ARM based devices then?
16:17<Zuu>of if it was 70 ...
16:17<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, ARM machines with PCI are hideously expensive
16:17<drac_boy>peter1138 actually I find the quadro too necessary btw
16:17<Zuu>(my watt-o-meter is on another computer currently)
16:17<@peter1138>what do you do that requires a quadro?
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>what you need a PCI for then? :)
16:18<Wolf01><andythenorth> who had stations on slopes? Wolf01 ? <- yes, was me
16:18<Superuser>bro you serious, how much do Quadro cost?
16:18<Superuser>this is professional grade
16:18<drac_boy>peter1138 graphic works at times which pretty much calls for opengl 4 support
16:18<drac_boy>Superuser $137+tax for this card
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>stations-on-slopes would be useful for roadvehicles
16:19<@Terkhen>yes, I remember that patch :)
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16:19<drac_boy>intel still is so far behind in anything thats not 2D graphics .... so meh to them >_<
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>not so much for trains
16:19<Superuser>but are drivers as good for these? Esp. on Linux?
16:19<frosch123>hmm, good point, that patch should be in my bookmark list
16:19<Superuser>and why are these not mainstream? What differentiates them?
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: "things to review 5 years later"?
16:19<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=41433 <- added
16:20<@peter1138>Superuser, they're not necessary
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16:20<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, i have 120 bookmarks to such stuff :)
16:20<@peter1138>hardware wise, they're the same
16:20<@peter1138>they just have a bit set somewhere inside the chip that says "hey, i'm a quadro, not a pansy geforce"
16:20<Superuser>drac_boy would beg to differ ;)
16:20<Superuser>lol'd
16:20<@peter1138>then nvidia make the drivers give you more features depending on that bit
16:21<@peter1138>"What differentiates Quadro from GeForce is that GeForce usually has its dual precision floating point performance severely limited, e.g. to 1/4 or 1/8 of that of the Quadro/Tesla GPUs. This limitation is purely artificial and imposed on solely to differentiate the gamer/enthusiast segment from the professional segment. "
16:21<drac_boy>Superuser what do you mean by 'beg to differ'? I did actually pay $137+tax *off the shelf* for my quadro card
16:22<Superuser>fuckin' moneygrab
16:22<@peter1138>Superuser, like the old IBM printer trick
16:22<drac_boy>peter1138 if that was the case then how come many of the sub-$200 geforce card did not even have at least opengl 3.2 at all yet in contrast the cheap quadro had 4.0+ plus some cl?
16:22<drac_boy>just pointing that out
16:22<Superuser>all of 400 series is 4.0+
16:23<@peter1138>drac_boy, purely drivers
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>they manufacture one kind of chip, and just disable some feature, because it would be way more expensive to design and manufacutre multiple chips
16:24<andythenorth>do people build their own computers :o
16:24<Supercheese>yep
16:24*frosch123 only bought his quadro because it had a technical spec at all; compared to non-pro products which had some stupid advertisement text that said nothing
16:24<drac_boy>peter1138 nope its not
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>a few years ago you still had to soldier around a resistor or so to "upgrade" your card
16:24<drac_boy>even the software mod can't do anything about hard chip limits
16:24<@peter1138>drac_boy, really it is
16:24<andythenorth>how rare
16:25<drac_boy>its not like the radeon where some actually were soft-blocked
16:25<frosch123>andythenorth: everyone should have at least once in a live assembled a computer from individual compontents
16:25<Superuser>fuck me, quadros are expensive
16:25<frosch123>just like everyone should at least once have installed lfs, or at least gentoo
16:25<@peter1138>Superuser, yeah, a cheap quadro will be comparable to an older generation cheap geforce
16:25<drac_boy>frosch123 I've put together custom builds too often to bother counting anymore heh
16:25<andythenorth>frosch123: I have assembled them from monitor, keyboard, mouse and base unit
16:25<andythenorth>that works for me :P
16:25<Superuser>honestly, looking at the specs, there is little difference between that and a consumer card
16:26<frosch123>andythenorth: does mac even count as computer?
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you have a whole different attachment to the computer if you held every component in your hands individually :)
16:26<Superuser>what do you do with CUDA when almost no games use it or OpenCL?
16:26<frosch123>andythenorth: resp. aren't mac assembled from monitor+keyboard?
16:26<andythenorth>frosch123: I mean those dell things :P
16:26<frosch123>without base unit
16:26<Superuser>only mathematical/physics calculations and other such boring things
16:26<andythenorth>the ones that run windows
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>Superuser: you write your own massively parallelized programs
16:27<+glx>andythenorth: the things full of 'custom' hardware ?
16:27<Superuser>fun
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>like, you could port openttd's vehicle movement code to CUDA
16:27<andythenorth>I have even plugged in cables
16:27<Supercheese>Zounds
16:27<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, if you disabled collisions
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: and multiplayer, and ... :p
16:28<@Terkhen>a friend of mine is doing some algorithm implementations in CUDA
16:28<@Terkhen>crazy stuff
16:28<drac_boy>superuser to be honest with you the last time I tried use the intel graphics or even a single HD4870 .. neither of these could do do graphic rendering anywhere half as well as the quadro card did ... so rather than trying to explain that failing limit to users I'll rather provide them a real 3D gpu card
16:29<frosch123>i once implemented fourier transformation with the pixel shader on my old geforce
16:29<frosch123>but the cpu outperformed it vastly by using fft instead of ft
16:29<drac_boy>not sure why the HD4870 just couldn't do it either with windows or linux but meh don't want bother docking money to find out
16:29<Superuser>I don't own a 3D workstation... I just wanna play some games :(
16:29<frosch123>(while fft is not suitable for a graphics card)
16:29<@Terkhen>WRT OpenTTD... given that we do not do multicore even for a small number of cores, I would like to know who can do it for stuff like 200 cores :P
16:29<Superuser>and I certainly won't be using integrated intel graphics
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>so... why do they call it "simple iteration" and "primitive recursion" if the stuff gets so complicated.. :p
16:30<Superuser>also the power consumption on those bastards is through the roof
16:30<frosch123>Superuser: how many screens to you want to use?
16:30<Wolf01>'night all
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16:30<Superuser>1, maybe 2
16:30<Superuser>not even hd
16:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I hold all the components in my hands in aggregate :P
16:30<Superuser>barely above 1080p
16:31<Superuser>2*(1280*1024)
16:31<frosch123>do non-pro product support more than 2 screens meanwhile?
16:31<frosch123>s/2/1/
16:31<@peter1138>i think someone tried impulse convolution in cuda
16:32<@peter1138>it worked, but there was a bottleneck getting te data to-from the card
16:32<Superuser>I use a stacking desktop, no biggie ;)
16:32<@peter1138>so... A* in cuda?
16:33<drac_boy>which motherboard would you have picked?
16:33<Superuser>what me?
16:33<drac_boy>for me its been the DH77EB for some time, apparently can't find any second choice that equivals to it
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16:34<Superuser>drac_boy calm down, you have very stron opinions, we understand that
16:34<drac_boy>Superuser nah I don't...I don't build for myself :p
16:34<Superuser>>mATX
16:34<Superuser>I already have a case, has to be good ol' ATX
16:34<drac_boy>you going use 4+ cards then superuser?
16:35<drac_boy>otherwise atx is sometimes moot but mmm your call :)
16:35<Superuser>most unlikely.
16:35<@peter1138>don't remember what cards i've got
16:36<Superuser>so uhh... anyone know any good atx motherboards?
16:36<Superuser>or 'mainboards' (the PC word for it)
16:36<@peter1138>8800gt, firewire, ice1712... can't be only 3
16:37<@peter1138>hmm, guess it is, took the sblive out
16:37<Superuser>anyway... last questoin (I promise)... how many watts over should the PSU go
16:38<Superuser>you should leave a margin of safety, right?
16:38<Supercheese>jiggawatts
16:38<drac_boy>I guess a small reason I've liked the DH77EB as well tho is because it still has one onboard uart header, saves the cost of a hard serial card which aren't exactly 'cheap'
16:38<Superuser>do you actually have one?
16:38<drac_boy>superuser it varies from 150W to 750W depending on the gpu and number of drives mainly
16:39<@peter1138>Supercheese, iirc 500W should be plenty with "only" 1 GPU
16:39<+glx>ofc a good one, not a cheap one
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16:40<@peter1138>got a usb-serial converter for those very rare times that i ever need a serial port
16:40<drac_boy>glx yeah antec, zalman, corsair, etc :)
16:40<drac_boy>peter1138 how do you turn +5V into -12V tho?
16:40<Superuser>last time I used one was 12 years ago, feels old
16:40<SpComb>the world runs on FTDI USB-serials
16:40<drac_boy>seeing usb port only gives 5V alone
16:40<@peter1138>never needed to
16:40<+glx>I have a serial on my board
16:40<Superuser>oh yeah anyone have an SSD?
16:40<andythenorth>what is serial please? :P
16:40<Superuser>Do you notice a difference in speed?
16:40*andythenorth is trolling
16:40<drac_boy>heh
16:40<@peter1138>drac_boy, maybe it has a dc-dc converter in it
16:41<andythenorth>Superuser yes
16:41<Superuser>overhyped?
16:41<drac_boy>mind you the DH77EB system (even with the quadro card) has been running off a 200W dc supply kit for a few different users for a while now with no complains at all
16:42<andythenorth>Superuser: my laptop stock drive was 5400, ymmv
16:42<+glx>andythenorth: laptop often have slow drives
16:43<Superuser>is that
16:43<Superuser>5400 KB/s?
16:43<+glx>no RPM
16:43<Superuser>write
16:43<andythenorth>stock 5400 SATA spinning glass disks: 31MB/s write, 32MB/s read. Crucial v4 SSD 219MB/s write, 514MB/s read
16:43<Superuser>o
16:43<Superuser>noice
16:43<andythenorth>so yeah, I noticed the difference
16:43<Superuser>they crap out very quickly though, and I'd be afraid
16:43<andythenorth>backups
16:44<Superuser>so you need to buy a new one every 5 years on a journalled filesystem? Fuck that
16:44<@Terkhen>I only notice the diference when booting and copying a lot of data
16:44<andythenorth>horses courses, I buy a new computer every year or so anyway
16:44<supermop>i'd want to buy a new hard drive every 5 years anyway
16:44*Terkhen would never assume that one of his HD is going to last more than 2 years
16:45<supermop>sooner than 5 really
16:45<@Terkhen>if it does, good, but I wouldn't count on it :P
16:45<__ln__>anyone not watching 'Breaking Bad', the tv series?
16:45<drac_boy>andythenorth I doubt you want know how old my primary computer is then :)
16:45<@peter1138>what's that?
16:45<Superuser>a tv series.
16:45<andythenorth>drac_boy: good call
16:45<andythenorth>you're correct
16:45*Terkhen would not like spoilers, at all
16:45<supermop>my old vaio has a 7 year old hdd that works fine, but i consider that the exception, not the rule
16:45<drac_boy>andythenorth or do you? :)
16:45<__ln__>a very good tv series, and not only in my opinion.
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>i think we've had such discussion before
16:47<drac_boy>I only replaced its hd a few months ago because of capacity crunch, the replacement hd was supposed to be non-pulled new one so may be a good another several years of keeping the computer :)
16:48<drac_boy>73.6gb for about $42+shipping, not too bad
16:49<supermop>why just define hight level for stations? why not for houses and newobject too
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>what? don't you get like 10 times as much space for twice the money?
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: objects already have it
16:49<supermop>tall enough bridge should go over anything
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>industries and houses probably reuse the map bits for something else
16:50<supermop>should bridges also have this property for themselves...?
16:50<@peter1138>ah, scsi harddrives
16:50<@peter1138>supermop, height of bridge isn't a bridge property
16:51<__ln__>anyway, this Breaking Bad is about an overqualified high school chemistry teacher who starts manufacturing drugs. (and that was not a spoiler)
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>pre-flood i bought my 2TB HDD for something like 120€
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: so you're like one episode into the series? :p
16:52<supermop>eventually wouldn't we want to to know the structure height of bridge tiles to allow bridging bridges?
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: if you write a proper newgrf bridge spec?
16:52<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, actually... i've a pat...
16:52<supermop>sure thing
16:53<drac_boy>eddi actually no..its not 10>2 .. more like 10>10
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: the current bridge code supports bridging bridges, it's simply disabled
16:54<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: actually more like 30 episodes, at season 3. :)
16:54<supermop>back in a sec buying a frame
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i think i'm "current" (being middle of season 5 or so)
16:55<Supercheese>Is the "Artistic License" Simutrans paksets use compatible with GPL?
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: unlikely
16:55<Supercheese>some paksets*
16:55<Supercheese>Hmm, then how about Creative Commons licenses?
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: i don't know all licenses by heart...
16:56<Supercheese>Hmm, some things seem to be dual-licensed with it and the GPL
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>those you can use in GPL projects then
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>be careful that GPLv2 and GPLv3 aren't compatible either
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16:58<__ln__>currently Netflix has only the first four seasons, so that's where i'll need to stop soon.
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>season 5 is the final season
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>but it's longer than the others, i think
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>season 1 was the one that was cut short due to the writers strike?
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17:01<Supercheese>https://github.com/jha4ceb/pak64.experimental/blob/master/licence.txt
17:02<Supercheese>Blarg, I hate reading through these things
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17:03<__ln__>this looks interesting: http://blog.backblaze.com/2009/09/01/petabytes-on-a-budget-how-to-build-cheap-cloud-storage/
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: "post it on usenet or a major archive site" sounds problematic
17:05<Supercheese>No kiddin'
17:05<Supercheese>All I want are some sprites to use under GPL or Creative Commons :(
17:06<Supercheese>Oh callou callay - http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html
17:06<Supercheese>Listed as compatible
17:07<Supercheese>took me ~10 google searches to hit that page, strange
17:08<Supercheese>the Clarified version anyway
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>IANAL, but i think it's compatible as well, with a few "that might cause a bit of trouble when people get REALLY picky"
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17:13<frosch123>night
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17:19<andythenorth>bonsoir
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17:25<__ln__>apropos, was there some space western scifi series in the 90s? not talking about firefly, 'cause it was in the 2000s. not talking about star trek either.
17:26<Supercheese>Weird NML error, "Line has no ':' delimiter" ... when clearly the line does
17:26<Supercheese>Oh derp
17:26<Supercheese>not in the .nml in the .lng
17:26*Supercheese facepalms
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17:40<Eddi|zuHause>was there anything other than star trek in the 90s? :p
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17:47<__ln__>ds9
17:48<@peter1138>WLIIA
17:48<@Terkhen>good night
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17:54<__ln__>i recall watching some scifi series set in space, with revolvers and stuff, but i think it was in the 90s, so not firefly.
17:55<__ln__>or maybe i'm just making it up
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>there might have been some strange animated series which i have no idea what they were called or how old they were
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18:09<__ln__>one possibility is that it was firefly after all, but i only see one episode or part of it, since i don't seem to remember firefly at all now that i've been watching it.
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18:31<Eddi|zuHause>"die Flughafen-Gesellschaft Berlin-Brandenburg (FBB) habe den Eröffnungstermin am 27. Oktober 2013 abgesagt. Aufgrund massiver Baufehler sei ein BER-Start frühestens 2014 möglich." ... so much for that topic :p
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---Logclosed Mon Jan 07 00:00:49 2013