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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-01-09

---Logopened Wed Jan 09 00:00:52 2013
---Daychanged Wed Jan 09 2013
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01:55*Supercheese wonders if the Notepad++ highliter could be updated
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02:52<kamnet>Good morning.
03:11<Supercheese>Good night
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03:12<Celestar>so .. cargodist or yacd :P
03:14<kamnet>Looks to me like cargodist as of late has been moving closer.
03:19<Celestar>closer to what?
03:19<@peter1138>closer to having less bugs
03:19<@peter1138>than it did
03:20<@peter1138>yacd for me
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03:20<@Celestar>peter1138: reasoning? :P
03:25<kamnet>I don't have any preference as of yet for one over the other. I've only played games with cargodist (ChillCore Patch Pack and another that I'm helping to test). Cargodist IMO is more permissive to allowing the player to establish what cargo they would like to ship where.
03:25<kamnet>YACD is more challenging in that it demands that the player yield to its economy and ship cargo where it is most desired.
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05:39<@Celestar>yacd sounds nice then.
05:39<@Celestar>Gonna give it a try :)
05:39<@Celestar>Tell me ... if rsync segfaults, something is REALLY fishy, right?
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06:51<@peter1138>hmm, need to figure out how to get my xmpp server back up and running
06:57<@Celestar>hm ..
06:58<@Celestar>a UK study revealed that 50% of employees would give out their company login passwords for 10 pounds, but it takes over 100 pounds for 50% of the employees to give out their facebook password.
06:58<@Celestar>conclusion of the study: companies should migrate to facebook authentication
07:01<drac_boy>Celestar thankfully I don't even have any sort of "social" logins online at all ;)
07:02<blathijs>Celestar: 10 pounds? Are you serious?
07:02<blathijs>Better conclusion: companies should fire 50% of their employees...
07:02<@Celestar>blathijs: yah.
07:03<@Celestar>I'm not surprised that people do that.
07:03<@Celestar>but for 10 bucks? that's like 2 lunches
07:05<blathijs>I wonder if this is about personal logins, or just general company passwords
07:05<blathijs>in the former case, any abuse can be easily traced to the employee, which would mean way too much risk
07:06<Pinkbeast>Well, I remember the "password for free chocolate" survey at railway stations.
07:06<Pinkbeast>I think you want to be careful of this sort of result. I would gladly lie to someone about my password for free chocolate.
07:06<blathijs>OTOH, they probably packaged the offer in something sounding at least somewhat credible...
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07:24<@Celestar>we need a rating system for AIs :P
07:34<@peter1138>anyone else using an xmpp server?
07:34<@Celestar>yeah. googletalk :P
07:37<@peter1138>they'll probably be logging every word you say then
07:39<@Celestar>only some remote friends there.
07:51<@planetmaker>Celestar, there is a wiki page about AI comparison. And a few selected forum threads in the respective sub-forum
07:51<@planetmaker>Celestar, nevertheless a somewhat automated AI battle which is repeated somewhat regularily might be nice. It's *somewhere* on my agenda. But I fear not very high up... so might well be never
07:54<drac_boy>heh heh
08:02<@Celestar>700 aircraft?!
08:03<Pinkbeast>And obviously "does well in automated battle" != "nice to play with"
08:03<@Celestar>Mogul's with 2000+ RVs
08:05<Pinkbeast>Well... I think if you set the RV limit per company to n you cannot complain if an AI builds n RVs, at least provided it does not try to cram them all down the same road. :-/
08:05<@Celestar>and a 2k 2k map with high number of towns is just insane :P
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08:22<@planetmaker>V453000, it depends on how criteria are set :-)
08:23<@planetmaker>automated battle need not mean to decide on money made
08:23<@planetmaker>it could be based on whatever a game script could decide on
08:23<V453000>you know what I think about AIs in general .. :)
08:25<drac_boy>or is it one of these 'I do not like them one bit at all' answer V453000? :P
08:26<V453000>more like that yes, +-
08:26<V453000>why would you ever use an AI, I just dont understand ... but ye
08:27<drac_boy>I never ever played with any AI neither .. usually like playing myself :)
08:32<V453000>solo, or with people, but with a computer which does totally weird stuff? idk
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08:37<drac_boy>how're you anyway V453000?
08:40<V453000>working on NUTS 0.4.2 and 0.4.0 along with 0.4.1 were the most awesome versions so far :)
08:40<V453000>having a lot of ideas all the time :)
08:40<drac_boy>heh heh :P
08:40<V453000>also might be making a NUTS station set which would show any cargo type in stations ... things like rubber, grain or stuff are kinda missing :(
08:41<V453000>and I have so many cargoes drawn already that it will be simple to utilize
08:41<drac_boy>well I don't even have much of any ideas..just more of trying to find specs and cleaning up tables :)
08:47<V453000>got some working grf yet?
08:49<V453000>once you start playing with it, ideas just appear out of nowhere
08:51<drac_boy>actually most of the ideas are already in place :p
08:51<drac_boy>just some are lacking numbers yet ;)
08:51<V453000>you would think
08:52<V453000>every version of nuts is the current amount of ideas I thought is the "all ideas" at that time ;)
08:52<drac_boy>well theres still the playability limit .. neverminding id and slots limit just as well
08:52<V453000>technically, yes
08:53<V453000>but making a good newgrf is a lot of work and I doubt it can ever be 100% since the first version ;)
08:53<V453000>improvements, new ideas, new features
08:54<V453000>not mentioning bugs .. :)
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08:56<drac_boy>V453000 thats why I was thinking about alpha releases :P
08:57<V453000>any release is good
08:57<V453000>I dont even call alpha and crap
08:57<V453000>just 0.0.1, and counting
08:57<V453000>0.4.1 is literally 41th version
08:58<drac_boy>I rather prefer one dot thank you :)
08:59<V453000>that isnt the point
08:59<V453000>what im saying is that calling something alpha is not really useful here, it is a version like any other
09:00<bolli>Peter1138, I've used an XMPP chat server in the past...
09:00<drac_boy>actually V453000 thats like saying a grf is perfectly bugfree from first release which is never always the case
09:00<V453000>actually who cares?
09:00<drac_boy>hence it still is an alpha or beta at times whether you like that or not
09:01<V453000>no version of the newgrf will probably be bugfree
09:01<@Celestar>hm orudge still looking for money :P
09:01<V453000>it is just version 1 :) nobody can sue you for having bugs in something you do in your free time anyway ;)
09:02<V453000>as for it being new, nobody can even expect it wont have bugs
09:02<drac_boy>celestar heh yeah
09:02<V453000>but naming it "beta" already can make some people not even try it
09:03<V453000>"I will wait for stable" they say
09:03<V453000>same with openttd
09:03<V453000>1.3.0 is beta1 and look at how many servers use it
09:03<V453000>just a few
09:03<V453000>"we will wait for the stable" ... when "someone" tests it right
09:04<V453000>I wouldnt call my newgrf beta, it is just the "current" number of version I have now, I dont have anything more than that at that time :)
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09:36<@planetmaker>V453000, I basically agree with all what you argued here, except on a tiny nuance:
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09:36<@planetmaker>There is a point in alpha, beta and stable. And there's a difference.
09:36<V453000>I know, esp in a bigger project
09:36<V453000>but for a small newgrf :)
09:36<@planetmaker>But there's only a difference, if you actually DO make alpha and beta releases regularily. So that the code actually DOES get tests. And if you take your time to actually (only) fix bugs between beta and stable
09:37<V453000>yeah I can see that :)
09:37<@planetmaker>So yes, tendentially a stable of OpenTTD is more bug-free than a nightly or beta
09:37<drac_boy>planetmaker indeed
09:37<V453000>for a large project like OpenTTD I completely understand it
09:37<@planetmaker>But in the scope of NewGRFs as they're being used and developed: it makes little sense :-)
09:38<Ammler>easier to simply release "stable" and then follow with bugfix releases
09:38<@planetmaker>I mean... the newgrfs as built e.g. by devzone's compile farm daily: they're kind of alpha. But I doubt they get really much feedback. That only is given if you feed something to the people by making an actual release
09:39<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:39<@planetmaker>Ammler, yes, exactly.
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: depends how much customer-insatisfaction and bugreport-spam you can suffer :)
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: but certainly, that looks like what commercial game developers do nowadays :)
09:39<drac_boy>thats the other thing, I'll only prefer serious reports :->
09:40<drac_boy>but I guess thats personally to our own choices
09:40<@planetmaker>serious reports?
09:40<@planetmaker>you can't choose which feedback you get. You can only choose which you take into account
09:40<Ammler>hehe, yeah, what is a "unserious" report?
09:40<drac_boy>planetmaker mm don't know what else you would call something like "why is ____ bouncing on the track?"
09:41<@planetmaker>if people actually talk to you, it's an obvious concern or desire for them. Usually. Whether you call it stupid or not
09:42<V453000>you dont get bug reports for a newgrf daily drac_boy :)
09:43<Ammler>if you release a beta, doesn't this mean, you do not really need bug reports :-)
09:44<Ammler>or basically every opensource release is a beta :-P
09:45<@planetmaker>that logic also defies my understanding, Ammler
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler's logic regularly defies real logic :p
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09:49<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, tell me how to calculate the clipping rectangle for tunnels
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i'm not entirely sure
09:50<V453000>or else
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: the vehicle cuts in CETS are somewhat arbitrariy and empirical
09:51<@peter1138>we have the sprite size
09:51<@peter1138>and the offsets
09:51<V453000>you cut sprites to make them fit in tunnels?
09:51<@peter1138>and the tile
09:52<@peter1138>V453000, CETS is two parts to each long wagon, no?
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: actually, it's 3 parts
09:53<V453000>oh you have longer wagons than 8/8 right
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>the formulas are buried somewhere here in the "view_normal" function:
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>not sure how useful they are
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09:55<Eddi|zuHause>"slice_start" and "slice_end" range from 0 to 16
09:55<@peter1138>i don't think that is useful at all
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>i guess so
09:56<@peter1138>hmmm, x_max = x_extents + x_offs
09:56<@peter1138>not even that
09:57<@peter1138>personally i don't think it'll work
09:57<@peter1138>ships in FISH are massive
09:57<@peter1138>something like fixed articulated parts could work
09:58<@peter1138>but that makes movement code awkward
09:58<@peter1138>might be less awkward than clipping though
10:00<+michi_cc>And it would solve the multiple cargoes in one ship problem on the go ;)
10:03<@peter1138>never seems to bother people
10:14*Celestar likes listening to ATC live feed
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10:52<Rubidium>Celestar: especially the times when pilots refuse to do something?
10:52<@Celestar>hrhr :)
10:52*Rubidium had that on a United flight
10:53<Rubidium>ATC: take this and that taxi way, pilot: uhm... you know they are repaving that, right?
10:54<Jasperthecat1>I've heard about ATC Controllers sleeping on the job.
10:54<Jasperthecat1>Bad idea.
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11:24<Jasperthecat1>Lol, jermboy reminds me of me.
11:24<Jasperthecat1>The one that's banned.
11:26<Jasperthecat1>Sorry, it's actually serious.
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11:50<NGC3982>I have never encountered this before?
11:50<NGC3982>Can it be some kind of setting i have accidently turned on or off?
11:50<@peter1138>encountered what?
11:51<NGC3982>A train shorter than the station length, reserving track outside of the station.
11:51<bolli>You need bi-directional path signals at the end of the station...
11:51<@peter1138>ah, yes
11:51<bolli>It will do it in that scenario if its just come out of the depot...
11:51<Pinkbeast>Presumably it's because it er what bolli said
11:51<bolli>Stations =/= signals
11:51<@peter1138>yeah it serviced, then reserved up until its safe waiting point
11:51<NGC3982>This has always worked out before, and works in the stations nearby?
11:52<Pinkbeast>I suspect the adjacent platform does not exhibit the same behaviour.
11:52<NGC3982>I could never have guessed service had anything to do with it
11:52<bolli>But are the nearby stations dead ends or through stations?
11:52<@peter1138>protip: that signal isn't a safe waiting point either
11:52<NGC3982>bolli: Exactly the same buildup.
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11:52<Pinkbeast>Er well it's not a sensible waiting point anyway
11:52<NGC3982>peter1138: I know, bad habit of mine to put signals to close to an exit route.
11:53<bolli>Then when things come out of the depots, they will exhibit the same issue :p
11:53<Pinkbeast>Also you've got the usual problem that if a train arrives with both platforms empty it will use the one which causes it to block the junction while leaving.
11:53<@peter1138>that's pretty normal :S
11:53<NGC3982>That explain why that one works
11:54<bolli>because they're dead ends
11:54<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: That doesn't really bother me. The station is not to be expanded.
11:54<NGC3982>bolli: I see.
11:54<NGC3982>Thank you.
11:54<Pinkbeast>peter: As a workaround I double the exit signal on the non-preferred platform which is a horrible bodge but does fix it.
11:54<bolli>Your first screenshot had 1 platform as a through station
11:55<Pinkbeast>Also you don't want the depot platform preferred by trains not requiring the depot.
11:55<Pinkbeast>No kidding!
11:56<Pinkbeast>But it really wants one to furtle in the bowels of YAPF which...
11:56<@peter1138>just need to assign a custom penalty
11:57<Pinkbeast>You mean, a property of the map not the orders?
11:57<Pinkbeast>But then a) you're trying to get more bits in the map array and b) the preferred platform may depend on the train's next destination.
11:58<NGC3982>I guess using dual engines in a single train, does not affect reliability at all?
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12:17<NGC3982>planetmaker: Indeed, it is.
12:17*NGC3982 is sweeping DDR's butt clean on
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12:25<@planetmaker>too much detail, NGC3982 ;-)
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12:34<DDR>NGC3982: I had an interview this morning.
12:34<DDR>How badly am I loosing?
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12:44<NGC3982>Not really
12:44<NGC3982>Guys, how do i reset a players password?
12:45*DDR narrates: "mm, well, I'm in, but I don't have control."
12:45<NGC3982>with rcon or directly via the dedicated server console
12:45<DDR>My password isn't working. :/
12:46<DDR>NGC3982: Funnily enough, I could log on to your company. I repaid some loan.
12:46<Jasperthecat1>What server are you on?
12:46<@peter1138>just move him to his company
12:47<Jasperthecat1>You can join a company as a server.
12:47<NGC3982>peter1138: How do i do that? :/
12:48<NGC3982>I found it
12:48<Jasperthecat1>I wonder why people won't listen to me.
12:48<NGC3982>DDR: It worked.
12:49<DDR>I have the same problem, sometimes. :P
12:49<NGC3982>DDR: Set a new passord.
12:49<NGC3982>I have just missed my train.
12:49<DDR>I told you not to miss the train on my account!
12:50<DDR>And here you go... missing it. I've set default password so you don't miss any more trains.
12:57<Jasperthecat1>Umm, the server needs requests me to enter a password.
12:58<DDR>Which server?
12:58<Jasperthecat1>Tell me in PM please.
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24901 /trunk/src/lang (6 files in 2 dirs) (2013-01-09 18:45:33 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>afrikaans - 16 changes by LazyLizzard
13:45<@DorpsGek>dutch - 21 changes by Parody
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 8 changes by Rubidium
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 8 changes by wojteks86
13:45<@DorpsGek>tamil - 12 changes by aswn
13:45<@DorpsGek>turkish - 37 changes by barisdemirdelen
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14:11<V453000>is somewhere a very simple example of a station newGRF code? I tried to look at chips, but I couldnt understand a thing there :(
14:12<@planetmaker>V453000, the only other station newgrf with code likely is ISR. But that's far from simple, too. Maybe... DutchStations is there as well... you know where to look ;-)
14:12<@planetmaker>But none is simple
14:12<V453000>hmm :)
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14:13<V453000>I can at least find some code in ISR :D
14:17<V453000>oh jesus christ
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14:17<V453000>I better try something simple because this looks like true hell
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14:21<@peter1138>i guess i'll have to reconsider purchasing from jessops
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14:24<Eddi|zuHause>the "modern station" set has code somewhere, but an unusable license
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>and the code is probably not good at all
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14:25<V453000>mhm :|
14:25<V453000>I dont need to use the code just learn how to code a trivial sprite replacement for stations with cargo dependence
14:26<V453000>but looking at makes my stomach turn around
14:26<@planetmaker>just... open issues with CHIPS :D
14:26<V453000>that might be a nice idea
14:26<V453000>will consult with andy
14:26<@peter1138>no such thing as a trivial sprite replacement for stations
14:26<@planetmaker>if you provide sprites for cargo and maybe platforms...
14:27<V453000>I mainly want the cargo coded, I have tons of cargo sprites
14:27<@planetmaker>and, V453000 also make sure to possibly provide it to ISR as well. Thus open issues there, too. Or alternatively
14:27<V453000>well laying around nuts sources, extracting them isnt that hard
14:27<@planetmaker>not hard != at the fingertips :D
14:28<V453000>sure sure :)
14:28<V453000>my original thought was
14:28<V453000>most of my cargo sprites look ... different
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14:28<V453000>im not sure if that wouldnt collide with most "normal" station sets
14:28<V453000>aka isr chips
14:29<@planetmaker>that I don't know and would leave to judge the people who code it :D
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14:29<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth
14:29<frosch123>see, summoning also works with andy
14:29<andythenorth>bizarre eh?
14:29<V453000>speaking of the devil
14:29*andythenorth -> logs
14:30<@planetmaker>hm. yes. it worked with alberth with a certain delay. Like you predicted ;-)
14:30<V453000>andythenorth: what would you say if I wanted to flood you with tickets about CHIPS and additional cargo sprites, while providing the cargo sprites? :)
14:30<V453000>not to mention that most of the sprites are ... with some wtf value
14:31<V453000>well it isnt that bad :)
14:31<andythenorth>we'd need to find a coder
14:31<V453000>that is exactly what I cant do
14:31<andythenorth>oh just throw a rock ;)
14:31<andythenorth>there are loads :P
14:32*V453000 throws a rock at andy
14:32<andythenorth>got a list of cargos?
14:32<V453000>sure, all
14:33<andythenorth>will I like them? o_O
14:33<V453000>my aim is to extract NUTS sprites
14:33<V453000>and NUTS supports all cargoes
14:33<V453000>idk, you hopefully would :)
14:34<V453000>first thing I would do is collecting all sprites of cargoes I have currently, mostly crates, containers, boxes, animals, wood logs, toyland cargoes, bricks, planks, steel, everything
14:35<V453000>when it comes to things like heaps, I would need to draw those.... but then I have recolour tables with which I make all hopper cargoes
14:35<@Alberth>planetmaker: I should become less predictable :p
14:35<andythenorth>you could redraw the ones I've got :P
14:35<andythenorth>for heaps
14:35<andythenorth>I don't like them
14:35<V453000>ISR has nice heaps
14:35<@Terkhen>toyland cargos, nice :D
14:35<V453000>could try drawing something similar
14:36<andythenorth>iirc, adding cargos isn't much work for CHIPS
14:36<andythenorth>you have to follow the framework
14:36<frosch123> <- heaps of fizzy drinks?
14:36<V453000>example of my source
14:36<@Alberth>how do you drink that? :)
14:37<V453000>ton of stuff I have drawn aside which can get some use
14:39<V453000>andythenorth: you edit in psd, and then when saving you just save it into the palette, right?
14:41<V453000>and each piece of station has 2 options randomized
14:41<V453000>or 4 for full tiles
14:41<V453000>as in cargo sprites
14:41<V453000>splendid :)
14:42<andythenorth>got a checkout?
14:42<@planetmaker>hehe. good time to start using repos ;-)
14:42*planetmaker hides
14:42<V453000>oh god
14:43<V453000>well I guess it had to come some day :d
14:45<DDR>OK, once I got all my trains back up and not 50 years old, I was coming in at about 2/3 NGC3982's profit.
14:45<andythenorth>install hg....
14:45<DDR>Not bad, considering that was 50 years ago I set up the rail lines.
14:45<DDR>I am redeemed. He only thought he'd beaten my pants off.
14:49<DDR>Query: Is there a 'skip to previous order' command?
14:49<DDR>Skipping ahead is nice, but I've got 20 stops on this list.
14:49<DDR>Of... um... orders.
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14:58<Eddi|zuHause>ooh... cubed strawberries :p
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>your texts don't always match the pictures though
15:02<V453000>the texts are old
15:02<V453000>rather obsolete :)
15:03<V453000>they are remains of the sprites to the right
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15:21<fonsinchen>TrueBrain, sorry to say that, but the compile farm seems to have problems with cargodist again.
15:23<+michi_cc>V453000: m4nfo might be an alternative as along as NML doesn't do stations (
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15:36<DDR>I'm winning again.
15:37<V453000>michi_cc: :o
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16:24<frosch123>andythenorth: current status
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16:28<andythenorth>frosch123: looks pretty good to me
16:29<frosch123>just has some weird TODOs :p
16:29<andythenorth>effect vehicles for industries? :P
16:29<andythenorth>smoke :P
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>"A man from Pirna (Saxony) drove around with "RIP" on his license plate, instead of the typical "PIR", until the police notified him over a month later"
16:48*andythenorth acquired anti-virus scanner today
16:48<andythenorth>for first time in about 12 years
16:49<andythenorth>found 202 infected files
16:49<andythenorth>@calc 202 / 2153273
16:49<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 9.38106779772e-05
16:55<Rubidium>that is 0%, so you're virus free! ;)
16:56<andythenorth>ho ho
16:56<andythenorth>lucky me :)
16:56<andythenorth>not bad for 12 years of copying my OS from one mac to the next :P
16:57<andythenorth>and never having any AV stuff
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>was that 202 different virusses?
16:57<andythenorth>202 infected files
16:57<andythenorth>mostly html.phishing.blah
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17:02<frosch123>the only virus i ever had was in an uninstaller, which i never executed
17:02<frosch123>felt like the dev build some vengeance into it
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17:13<@Terkhen>good night
17:14<NGC3982>DDR: Hey! :D
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17:18*andythenorth -> bed
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17:18<NGC3982>DDR: I started outoreplacing trains until i realized they were 40 million GBP each, and -all- my mainliners are dual-engine trains.
17:18<NGC3982>The wallet turned into a singularity and vanished due to Hawking radiation.
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18:40<DDR>oh my
18:42<Jasperthecat1>I know, your last year's income is negative.
18:44<NGC3982>121 million to autoreplace an oil train
18:44<NGC3982>Current balance: £1.270.000
18:45<NGC3982>But it will work itself out
18:45<NGC3982>In a ten year period or something
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19:11<DDR>Hey, guise... would it be possible to write script or something that made a new window with AI-like properties?
19:11<DDR>eg, click a button, have the script keep an eye on something for you?
19:12<DDR>Like, say... trains?
19:12<DDR>See, I have come to the conclusion that having trains have a route is all backwards. What we _really_ want is for a route to have trains.
19:13<DDR>Then you just edit the route's train-consist and it'll replace what we have out when convenient.
19:14<DDR>That way, we don't have to fuck around manually upgrading trains and whatnot. I know there is autoreplace, but I'm a bit scared of that.
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19:26<Flygon>I actually like that idea
19:26<Flygon>Assign trains to a route, and have them be modified for adding or removing cars
19:26<Flygon>Issue is, what happens if you have multiple different sorts of trains, on one route/group, that while comparable
19:26<Flygon>Are still different types?
19:27<Flygon>To use a local example, you have Hitachi, Comeng, and Siemens trains
19:27<Flygon>They range from 1972 to 2004, but all are comparable, and have similar specs and carriage size...
19:28<Flygon>But in OpenTTD, adding extra carriages would either require a homogenous train type, or doing 3 seperate operations, assuming your script works the way I think it does...
19:28<Flygon>Er, idea, not script
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19:46<DDR>Flygon: Different route, but I'd considering having a 'this route duplicates this other route". Like how ctrl-goto works now.
19:46<DDR>You'd only have one engine type, of course, but I usually run routes with homogeneous engines anyway.
19:47<DDR>Otherwise, the faster engines run into the slower ones.
19:48<Flygon>I was assuming this was things like suburban/metro routes
19:48<DDR>I mean, yes, you loose some flexibility, but I'd sacrifice that for not having to figure out twenty identical trains when auto-replace can't.
19:48<Flygon>Where generally, all trains have the same specs
19:48<DDR>I'm not really sure what those are, in this context.
19:50<Flygon>I was assuming a similar sort of situation in OpenTTD could cause issues :p
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19:52<DDR>It would, but that's not what the routes idea optimizes for.
19:53<DDR>Like, the problem is that I have 10 identical trains running a single route, and it's a real pain to have to upgrade.
19:54<DDR>I was thinking that an AI could be used to band-aid the problem. You tell the AI what routes have what stops, give it a train, and then it takes care of the details.
19:55<DDR>bbl, dinner.
19:58<Flygon>Good idea
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>DDR: lots of things involved with this route idea... group system redesign, timetables, vehicle templates, ...
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>some of these things already have patches
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>problem with "AI-like" behaviour: someone will always find applications that break this behaviour. e.g. the existing automatic timetable separation breaks horribly when there are traffic jams
20:10<Supercheese>Official report of a bug I mentioned yesterday
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20:30<DDR>Eddi|zuHause: Yep.
20:31<DDR>I only use timetables for things like 'stay 5 days'. I was thinking that a sort of route-ai could also, say, 'run vehicles non-clumped', but that is non-core.
20:32<DDR>It's a bit of a pipe dream.
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20:43<Flygon>I only end up running timetables for time spent in the station...
20:43<Flygon>Because it's hard to predict how long a route can take on optimum speed
20:43<Flygon>And since I expand networks agressively
20:43<Flygon>I can't spend time on timetables...
20:48<DDR>Especially with breakdowns on.
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21:58<Eddi|zuHause>breakdowns are silly
22:07<DDR>nah, good chaos, makes you design resilient systems.
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22:51<Supercheese>model_life: 1920;
22:51<Supercheese>Problem: that value seems to be capped
22:51<Supercheese>according to the spec anyway
22:58<Supercheese>Guess that's why eGRVTS horse-drawn stuff isn't available from year 0
23:06<Eddi|zuHause>the exact limits might be in the NFO specs
23:06<Supercheese>byte, so 255 or so
23:07<Supercheese>though NML claims 254
23:07<Supercheese>I doubt very many people will play games before 1680
23:08<Eddi|zuHause>"doubt" is not "certain"
23:08<Supercheese>Not sure how to provide the option though, guess I could just have a duplicate horse
23:08<Supercheese>Oh, forgot to mention it is for a horse & rider
23:08<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure, maybe 255 could be treated as infinite internally
23:08<Eddi|zuHause>never checked
23:08<Supercheese>could be
23:09<Supercheese>NML named constant VEHICLE_NEVER_EXPIRES
23:09<Supercheese>thought I'd expect that to be zero and not 255
23:09<Eddi|zuHause>well just use that constant then?
23:09<Supercheese>Oh, I havent typed out my thought process here
23:10<Supercheese>havent blarg wtf
23:10<Supercheese>my auto-correct script is not working
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23:11<Eddi|zuHause>relying on auto spell correct sounds like a horribly hazardous habit
23:11<Supercheese>I have this enormous autohotkey script
23:11<Supercheese>It has enabled me to be immensely lazy with contractions
23:12<Supercheese>Just type "didnt" and auto-filters to didn't, and so on
23:17<Eddi|zuHause>that's exactly what i mean
23:17<Eddi|zuHause>if you start to rely on this, your own spelling will degenerate
23:18<Supercheese>For some people, perhaps
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23:20<Flygon>Wait, it's impossible to have vehicles before 1680?
23:20<Supercheese>Would certainly be an interesting experiment to carry out with a large sample size
23:20<Supercheese>It's impossible to have vehicles that expire around 1930 before the year 1676
23:20<Supercheese>due to the model_life cap at 254
23:21<Supercheese>of course the game adds some randomness to the expiry date
23:21<Supercheese>expiry? expiration?
23:21<Eddi|zuHause>one of those :p
23:21<Supercheese>they seem to be synonyms
23:22<Supercheese>it's too bad there's no synonym for cinnamon, think of all the puns that could be made
23:23<Eddi|zuHause>what the hell are you talking about?
23:24<Eddi|zuHause>i know what a pun is
23:25<Eddi|zuHause>and i know what cinnamon is (i think)
23:25<Eddi|zuHause>but i still don't know what the hell you're talking about
23:26<Supercheese>pronounce them
23:26<Supercheese>perhaps it's a dialect thing, they sound almost the same when I say them
23:26<Eddi|zuHause>these words definitely do not sound alike to my german ears
23:27<Supercheese>yeah, different pronunciations then
23:27<Supercheese>they're identical save for the final syllable in US english
23:27<Flygon>It depends
23:27<Flygon>English has different languages depending on the location
23:27<Flygon>It makes Skype chats baffling difficult with Americans when you speak Australian
23:29<Flygon>This makes things even more awkward when I have Europeans telling me that they'd like to Skype chat, but their spoken English is apperantly terrible...
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23:30<Flygon>Awkward step is telling them that at least 25% of Americans I speak to struggle to understand me :p
23:30<Supercheese>we tend to overabuse the schwa in US english
23:30<kamnet>I now have access to all the CNet information for OpenTTD.
23:31<Supercheese>(not exactly IPA, but I hope you get the drift)
23:31<Flygon>I only got ASCII enabled :P
23:31<Flygon>cbf figuring out Unicode
23:31<Supercheese>Eh, was auto-enabled for me
23:31<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: might have to do with me separating "a" and "o" very strictly when reading words
23:32<Supercheese>Indeed, as I said we're terribly lazy with vowels here in the States
23:32<Flygon>Supercheese: You'd be baffled as to how badly Australia has mangled English
23:32<Flygon>Even worse
23:32<Flygon>It changes per state
23:32<Supercheese>Well, Australia is a large place
23:32<Flygon>And locations inside states...
23:33<Flygon>America is a large place
23:33<Supercheese>Although even places like Spain and Germany have different dialects, and they're quite smaller
23:33<Flygon>But at least people don't confuse you with being either British, Australian, or Dutch :p
23:33<Supercheese>Americans can easily confuse any Commonwealth accent with another
23:33<Eddi|zuHause>there are areas in germany where one village doesn't understand the dialect of the neighbouring village :pö
23:33<Flygon>The Dutch guess by a friend was actually a very good catch... my Grandfather was Dutch :p
23:34<Flygon>Eddi: Sounds like Finland, going by my discussions with Finns
23:34<Flygon>We established that the only difference between Finland and Australia is that one snows more often :B
23:35<Eddi|zuHause>or in switzerland, where dialects evolved independently in different valleys. it's like galapagos turtles or so :p
23:38<kamnet>Interestingly enough, I read an article a week or two ago which stated that American dialects of the 20th century most closely reflects English dialects of the 18th century.
23:39<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds very overgeneralized
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23:42<kamnet>There's still quite a bit of influence from Irish and Italian immigration, but for the most part still very "stock". It said the change in the English dialects started in the upper class in the early 19th century and eventually became indoctrinated into the education system.
23:47<Supercheese>Fun, English wikipedia featured article is the London Metropolitan Railway
23:48<kamnet>Ah, here we go. And I was slightly off. Split was in mid 18th century (around the time of the American Revolution)
---Logclosed Thu Jan 10 00:00:55 2013