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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-01-11

---Logopened Fri Jan 11 00:00:56 2013
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00:47<Supercheese>Man, code is so easy, it's the graphics that are tough to produce
00:54<Supercheese>even sound effects are way easier than graphics @_@
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01:06*Supercheese seems to be talking to himself
01:21<Supercheese>Hah, crashed OTTD
01:21<Supercheese>Although it is my modified version, have to see if it crashes in trunk
01:22<Supercheese>Oh, I tried to import a stereo .wav, whoops, needs to be mono
01:22<Supercheese>NML let me, but OTTD complained :P
01:34-!-Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0097ae.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:36*Supercheese is very glad the 64kb sfx limit was removed
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01:43<Flygon>What?
01:43<Flygon>NOOOOOOO
01:43<Supercheese>was ist
01:43<Flygon>B-b-b-but
01:43<Flygon>64kb should be enough for anyone!
01:43<Supercheese>pfff
01:43<Supercheese>You ever made a grf with sound effects?
01:43<Supercheese>That limit sucked
01:43-!-Pensacola [~quassel@phys9212.phys.tue.nl] has joined #openttd
01:43<Flygon>Except for that time that the guys that ported Cannon Fodder to the Game Boy Color and decided to add an FMV intro...
01:44<Flygon>And I was making a bad joke :p
01:44*Supercheese knows
01:44<Supercheese>:P
01:44<Flygon>(that FMV intro is absurd... I can't believe they found peeps willing to write tight-knit video codecs for the Z80 in 2001...)
01:45<Flygon>(even worse when you consider needing PCM support, and the ability to modify the palette's on-the-fly without issues @_@)
01:46<Supercheese>let's see, what time is it down under anyway... GMT +someodd
01:47<Supercheese>So, like, 8-11 AM Jan 11 is my guess
01:47<Flygon>It's 5:47PM Friday
01:47<Supercheese>Bah
01:47<Supercheese>didn't add nearly enough hours
01:47<Supercheese>:P
01:47<Flygon>:p
01:48<Supercheese>although you guys have a few timezones there no?
01:48<Flygon>Not very many
01:48<Supercheese>3-4
01:48<Flygon>In Winter, it's just 3
01:48<@peter1138>moin
01:48<Flygon>In Summer, around 5...
01:48<Flygon>And this isn't counting our islands
01:48<Supercheese>Continental US has 4, not sure how DST bollockses that up
01:48<Flygon>And other claimed territories
01:48*Supercheese wonders how to conjugate the verb "bollocks"
01:48<Supercheese>presuming it can be made a verb :P
01:53<@peter1138>you bollocksed that up
01:53-!-Celestar [~vici@dslb-188-110-173-129.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
01:55<Supercheese>:D
01:57<Supercheese>Oh poo, triggers are not possible for objects in random switches
01:57<Supercheese>newobjects that is
01:57<@peter1138>hmm?
01:57<Supercheese>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Random_switch
01:58<Supercheese>I dunno how to say it in NFO-speak
01:58<@peter1138>what would it trigger on?
01:58<Supercheese>256 ticks I guess
01:59<Supercheese>Tileloop
01:59<Supercheese>Usecase: I have seagull newobjects, I'd like them to emit different sounds randomly
01:59<Supercheese>I presume that requires re-randomization
01:59<@peter1138>no
01:59<@peter1138>well
01:59<@peter1138>maybe
02:00<Supercheese>could easily be wrong
02:00<@peter1138>triggers can't emit sounds
02:00<Supercheese>let me see...
02:00<@peter1138>they just change the random bits
02:00<@peter1138>which can change graphics
02:00<Supercheese>I currently return a randomly chosen sound effect at a certain animation frame
02:00<@peter1138>if there is a sound effect callback then that can use the random bits to change the sound
02:00<@peter1138>animations...
02:01<@peter1138>oh god this game is too complex!
02:01<Supercheese>but of course that sound effect is the same each time, just randomly chosen at buildtime
02:01<Supercheese>same per tile anyhow
02:01<@peter1138>yes you could determine that sound effect based on the random bits
02:02<@peter1138>Supercheese, submit it as a feature request, tileloop trigger :)
02:02<Supercheese>I was hoping to have it re-randomize each time it hits that certain animation frame
02:02<Supercheese>okie dokie
02:02<Supercheese>second report from this .grf, it seems :P
02:03<@peter1138>well there might be some other way of doing it
02:03<Supercheese>that's what I'm wondering
02:04<Supercheese>Hmmm
02:04<Supercheese>anim_control seems to already have triggers
02:04<Supercheese>lemme try that
02:04<@peter1138>animation control has random bits in var 10
02:05<Supercheese>so it does, now to wrangle some code
02:05<@peter1138>is that the callback that makes the sound?
02:05<Supercheese>return sound in high byte it seems
02:05<@peter1138>ah yes
02:05<@peter1138>all animation callbacks, heh
02:06<@peter1138>next animation frame can do random bits too
02:06<@peter1138>but not mentioned for objects
02:06<Supercheese>that's what I was using
02:06<@peter1138>could be added probably
02:06<Supercheese>it seems to be mentioned
02:06<Supercheese>maybe I was Doing It Wrong™
02:07<@peter1138>it's specifically not mentioned for objects
02:07<Supercheese>Seems to be mentioned in NML
02:08<Supercheese>Hmm, the problem is how to make use of the random bits
02:08<@peter1138>test var 10
02:08<@peter1138>treat it as a switch case
02:08<@peter1138>not a random one
02:08<@peter1138>at least, i think
02:09<Supercheese>so no random switches
02:09<Supercheese>hmm
02:09<Supercheese>Oh I have to set a flag first
02:12<Supercheese>what's the range of the random stuff
02:12<Supercheese>0..8?
02:14<Supercheese>and furthermore, are the random bits re-randomized every so often?
02:15<@peter1138>you get a full 32 bits of random data
02:15<@peter1138>you probably won't need them
02:15<@peter1138>they're not stored, so they're different every time its called
02:15<@peter1138>*it's
02:16<@peter1138>won't need all of them, rather
02:16<Supercheese>Jeez, 32 bits, that's like, a zillion
02:16<@peter1138>4.2 thousand million
02:16<@peter1138>approx
02:17<Supercheese>yeah, loads
02:17<@peter1138>how many different sounds did you want?
02:17<Supercheese>3-4
02:17<Supercheese>I can easily do more or less if it's convenient
02:17<Supercheese>I'm just grabbing random snippets from a 1 min seagull .wav
02:17<@peter1138>mask with & 3 for 4 options
02:17<@peter1138>or mod with % 3 for 3 options
02:18<@peter1138>mask is more efficient, but only good for power of 2s
02:18<Supercheese>probably gonna use mod
02:18<@peter1138>that might be considered micro-optimising though :p
02:19<Supercheese>as long as it works
02:20<Supercheese>I have this snip of code from the NML specs, I don't even know how it works but it does :P
02:21<@peter1138>:d
02:21<@peter1138>er
02:21<@peter1138>:D
02:21<@peter1138>had caps lock on :p
02:21<@peter1138>hmm, nobody commented after my lock video
02:21<Supercheese>well, we commented on IRC
02:21<Supercheese>but not in the thread
02:21<@peter1138>oh, i went to bed after it :p
02:22<Supercheese>It looks weird with the default lock graphics, but with TTDPatch-esque locks it'll look great
02:22<Supercheese>IMO anyway
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02:24<@peter1138>what's the difference?
02:24<Supercheese>Don't TTDP locks look different?
02:24<Supercheese>than the ones in your video
02:24<@peter1138>mb's picture is a bit more detailed on the sides, but it's basically the same
02:25<@peter1138>clearly we need...
02:25<@peter1138>newgrf locks! :D
02:25<Supercheese>Well, to rephrase, with Better™ lock graphics, it will look great
02:25<Supercheese>and even without, it is still better than current OTTD behavior
02:25<Supercheese>an improvement overall, for sure
02:26<Supercheese>can't make the lock gates shut/open based on ship presence though, can you
02:27<Supercheese>hmm
02:27<@peter1138>currently there are no gates, heh
02:28<Supercheese>Theoretical gates ;)
02:28<@peter1138>but yeah, still the blocking other ships issue
02:28<Supercheese>oh you could shove multiple ships in the locks at once, hah
02:28<Supercheese>ships are just noclip-fests aren't they?
02:28<Supercheese>collision detection? bah, humbug
02:28<@peter1138>yup
02:29<Supercheese>Seems Firefox 18 is available?
02:29<Supercheese>little toastish popup
02:30<Supercheese>if "toast" is the appropriate term
02:31<Supercheese>Well, new code compiles
02:31<Supercheese>let's see if it works
02:31<Supercheese>there's such a vast gap between those two :P
02:34<Supercheese>Huzzah, works as intended
02:34<Supercheese>thanks for the help
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02:39<@planetmaker>moin
02:39<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r24905 /trunk/src (12 files in 3 dirs) (2013-01-11 07:39:25 UTC)
02:39<@DorpsGek>-Feature(ish): Implement station randomisation triggers.
02:40<@peter1138>damn, i'm hungry
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02:43<@peter1138>anyway that gets that one off my "nearly finished but forgotten about for a few years" pile
02:43<@peter1138>custom bridge heads was on it once :p
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03:03<Supercheese>How does (animation_frame + nearby_tile_random_bits(0,0)) % 128 never return zero? :S
03:05<@peter1138>never?
03:05<Supercheese>Seemingly
03:05<@peter1138>if the random bits never change
03:05<@peter1138>then it's very unlikely
03:06<Supercheese>Problem is I'm borrowing code without understanding most of it :S
03:06<Supercheese>(animation_frame + nearby_tile_random_bits(0,0)) % 24
03:07<Supercheese>very conveniently cycles between 0 and 23
03:07<Supercheese>Apparently mod 128 does not
03:07<Supercheese>cycle between 0 and 127 that is
03:07<@peter1138>how many animation frames?
03:08<Supercheese>Oh that might be preset
03:08<Supercheese>hence my problems
03:08<Supercheese>perhaps... the global animation_counter?
03:08<Supercheese>might be better
03:09<@peter1138>if you've got 4 frames, and the random bits are between 1 and 123 (most likely) then you won't see 0
03:09<Supercheese>again, borrowing without understanding :S
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03:23<Supercheese>I think I have improved my understand of the mechanics
03:24<Supercheese>animation_frame has a preset max, I didn't get that at first
03:25<Supercheese>it cycles between 0 and the frame_count defined in the object info
03:26<Supercheese>if I'm not mistaken
03:26<@peter1138>it contains the current frame, yes, it's not a counter that just increments all the time
03:27<Supercheese>I think I'll edit the wiki to make that more explicit
03:29<@peter1138>i always thought animation_frame is quite obvious
03:30<Supercheese>I was treating it more like animation_counter
03:30<Supercheese>it's late :P
03:30<Supercheese>programming after midnight
03:31<Supercheese> 0..(frame_count - 1) \
03:31<Supercheese> 0..(frame_count - 1)
03:31<Supercheese>ignore that slash
03:31<Supercheese>I hope that's correct
03:34<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=45149&view=unread#p1061174
03:34<Supercheese>lol, andy
03:38<Supercheese>Ach, I'm a moron
03:38<Supercheese>was attempting to decrease the probability of triggering using the wrong switch
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04:05<kamnet>Good morning
04:05<Supercheese>Salve, amice
04:12<@peter1138>feck it's cold out there
04:13<Supercheese>22ºF here
04:13<Supercheese>kinda cold
04:13<Supercheese>negative some-odd Celsius
04:14<@peter1138>-2°C here
04:14<@peter1138>º is not a °
04:15<Supercheese>Hmm
04:15<Supercheese>right you are
04:16<Supercheese>º
04:16<Supercheese>blarg
04:16<@peter1138>alt gr-shift-0 ;p
04:17<Supercheese>I use a different method
04:17<Supercheese>°
04:17<Supercheese>better
04:17<Supercheese>A while back I was complaining about alt codes being very unintuitive, so I wrote an Autohotkey script which is much more intuitive IMO
04:18<Supercheese>things like ::a`::á
04:18<Supercheese>::a~::ã
04:18<Supercheese>::n~::ñ
04:18<Supercheese>::sqrt(::√
04:18<Supercheese>::<=::≤
04:18<Supercheese>and so on
04:19<@peter1138>áâàäãạåãả
04:19<@peter1138>hmm
04:19<kamnet>Nifty!
04:20<Supercheese>my keyboard layout has no support for special vowel-chars like those
04:20<@peter1138>hmm, missed āǎă
04:20<Supercheese>advantage of the script is it's easily extendable
04:20<@peter1138>just a standard uk layout here
04:20<Supercheese>just have to think of hotkeys
04:20<Supercheese>hotstrings, rather
04:21<@peter1138>ảȧ
04:21<@peter1138>ả = shift-altgr-a
04:21<@peter1138>ȧ = altgr-shift-a
04:22<@peter1138>confusing much? :p
04:22<Supercheese>altgr?
04:22<Supercheese>same as alt?
04:22<@peter1138>right alt key
04:22<Supercheese>Yeah, mine doesn't do that by default
04:22<Celestar>morning
04:22<@peter1138>(doesn't work the same on windows)
04:22<Supercheese>but the script could do that, so yeah
04:22<Supercheese>and works for other stuff
04:23<Supercheese>e.g. Greek characters, :c:gamma<::γ
04:23<Supercheese>:c:delta<::δ
04:23<Celestar>what's the music driver of choice on linux today? allegro?
04:23<Supercheese>:c:DELTA<::Δ
04:23<@peter1138>dunno, i never use the game music
04:23<@peter1138>extmidi + pmidi used to work for me though
04:24<Supercheese>I always run Winamp for the game music, since midi is just bleh for audio quality
04:24<Supercheese>and some users have posted lovely renditions of TTD music with much better quality
04:25<SpComb>timidity
04:26<kamnet>Midi is just BLEH for audio quality? Tsk tsk tsk.
04:27<Supercheese>I'm sure there are some fancy libraries or whatnot to make it nicer
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04:27<Supercheese>I'm not motivated enough to get them :P
04:27<kamnet>Honestly, the problem is that there's just too much poor quality midi out there
04:27<Supercheese>you can blame the 90s for that
04:27<Supercheese>80s too I guess
04:28<kamnet>I've found a lot of great quality midi, many instruments, sophisticated layers and orechestration.
04:28<kamnet>Much of the midi that is out there is a basic drum combined with either a really horrible horn, or a boring piano.
04:29<kamnet>Eventually when I get around to posting my winter holiday music pack, you'll get to hear a lot of great sounding music.
04:30<Supercheese>I wonder if comparing midi to fanfiction is a good analogy
04:30<Supercheese>mostly rubbish but some good stuff :P
04:30<kamnet>I don't think that would be too unkind.
04:31<Supercheese>double negative :S
04:31<kamnet>Honestly arranging midi is quite a lot like arranging a band or orchestra. There are very talented people who can do it well, but most people know just enough to be dangerous.
04:31<Supercheese>another good analogy
04:32<Supercheese>Broomhall did a superlative job
04:32<kamnet>or painful. :D
04:32<Supercheese>my favorite midis, since 1995 :)
04:32<V453000>:D kist enough to be dangerous :D
04:32<kamnet>Yep, he did. And he didn't have superfancy sound font libraries to work with.
04:34<kamnet>Actually my next music project is going to be working w/ a very popular midi composer who arranges music for popular video games. A lot of the music I've already picked out, IMO, is reminiscent of Sim City 2000.
04:34<kamnet>Except it's longer than 60 seconds... and actually sounds really good.
04:34*Supercheese can't really remember Sim City 2k
04:34<Supercheese>I didn't play it nearly as much as TTD or some other games
04:35<Supercheese>I played the heck out of SimTower back in the day
04:35<Supercheese>didn't have music IIRC
04:35<kamnet>LOL. I remember what I thought I heard, which is likely right because I mostly heard it on crappy non-stereo computer speakers. A few years ago I went back and listened to it over my 5.1 surround sound system, and it's BAD.
04:35<Celestar>did I mention that I hate Oracle?
04:36<kamnet>Not yet today.
04:37<Celestar>I hate Oracle :P
04:40<Supercheese>Well, should sleep, approaching 2 AM
04:40<Supercheese>farewell all
04:40<kamnet>Goodnight!
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04:42<@peter1138>midi is awesome
04:43<@peter1138>but yeah, a lot of midi *files* are poor though
04:46<kamnet>I've heard toddlers banging on toy pianos sound better
04:46<SpComb>and midi synths
04:50<@peter1138>i like my pianoteq, sounds pretty good
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05:48<@peter1138>hmm, £22,800 over paid
05:49<@peter1138>way better deal than ppi i reckon
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06:25<Maedhros>is there any chance i could get a +v in #openttd.dev?
06:29<@peter1138>don't think i can
06:30<@peter1138>nothing to stop dev discussion in here
06:30<Maedhros>fair enough
06:31<Maedhros>fonsinchen: (re gradual loading) do you mean removing the setting, or removing gradual loading?
06:32<fonsinchen>I'm not talking about removing anything. I'm trying to figure out in what ways I can change the behaviour without breaking anything.
06:32<Maedhros>ok
06:32<fonsinchen>For example are there situations where I can reserve for the full vehicle and incrementally load the reserved cargo with gradual loading?
06:35<Maedhros>you mean when improved loading is disabled?
06:36<Maedhros>as far as i remember gradual loading was originally written to follow the ttdpatch implementation, and didn't really have any conceptual interaction with anything else
06:36<Maedhros>although it did have the effect of reducing loading times, and especially unloading times
06:40<fonsinchen>It reduces unloading times? how does that work?
06:40<fonsinchen>And what is the actual intention? Is that documented anywhere?
06:40<fonsinchen>Improved loading takes no effect when no full-load order is given.
06:41<fonsinchen>And, yes, otherwise gradual loading may only be interesting without improved loading. That's one of my theories.
06:42<Maedhros>in TTD, when something arrives at a station it loads and unloads everything at that moment, and ignores any cargo that arrives at the station afterwards (without full load)
06:42<Maedhros>it then tells the vehicle to wait at the station for a certain amount of time depending on how much cargo was unloaded (maybe also loaded? I don't remember that part)
06:43<Maedhros>so if you had a long train it would all unload instantly and then wait for ages doing nothing
06:43<Maedhros>whereas with gradual loading it'll leave as soon as it's empty
06:43<V453000>interesting I didnt know that
06:43<fonsinchen>However, with gradual loading it takes longer to actually unload the stuff
06:44<Maedhros>yes, but leaves the station more quickly afterwards
06:44<fonsinchen>I guess the difference is actually that with gradual loading GRFs can tell the load time whereas without they cannot.
06:45<fonsinchen>Let's ask a different question: If I removed gradual loading and made it default to "on", would that annoy anyone and why?
06:45<Maedhros>i was always annoyed with the default behaviour in passenger trains - a train would arrive, load what was there at that moment, and then wait without loading any more passengers when they appeared
06:45<V453000>why would you remove in the first place? :d
06:46<fonsinchen>Because it increases the complexity and it seems that no one wants that set to "off".
06:46<fonsinchen>Or is there any reason to disable gradual loading?
06:46<V453000>I know sometimes people use it to cheat long loading times
06:46<V453000>other than that, probably not
06:48<V453000>hm I guess that option indeed is quite useless
06:48<Maedhros>personally i would never want to play without it (but i may be biased because i think i wrote it ;)
06:49<fonsinchen>If you switch off gradual loading you'll also get some kind of "greedy" loading behaviour on a per-consist basis.
06:49<fonsinchen>The first consist takes all it can get, then the second one and so on and possibly some later consist will stay empty.
06:50<fonsinchen>With gradual loading on, the cargo is divided more evenly.
06:50<fonsinchen>Is the greedy behaviour something someone may want?
06:50<V453000>nah I cant really thing of any utility of the not gradual loading
06:51<V453000>think
06:51<V453000>duh
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: i think you miss the difference between "gradual loading" (step-by-step loading of vehicles) and "improved loading" (one vehicle gets all cargo until it is full, then the next one gets cargo...)
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>those are two independent settings
06:54<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r24906 trunk/src/pbs.cpp (2013-01-11 11:54:12 UTC)
06:54<@DorpsGek>-Fix (24905): Don't trigger on path reservation for waypoints.
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06:57<fonsinchen>I know the difference. Without gradual loading however, non-full-load orders behave a bit like full load orders with improved loading.
06:58<fonsinchen>The vehicle loads all it can load and waits a longer time afterwards.
06:58<fonsinchen>It does not actually wait for more cargo afterwards, though.
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>improved loading should only have an effect on full load orders
07:00<dihedral>hello
07:00<fonsinchen>I guess that the whole "improved loading" thing was a hackish fix for gradual loading removing that behaviour and leading to many half-full vehicles.
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>not entirely.
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>even without gradual loading, you get many half-full trains on a low-output industry when you have full load orders
07:01<@peter1138>improved loading came before gradual loading
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>basically, full load was fairly counter-productive when you had more than one train
07:02<fonsinchen>I see
07:02<@peter1138>what eddi said :p
07:02<fonsinchen>That's because non-improved loading doesn't do anything on non-loading ticks...
07:03<fonsinchen>Someone needs to get a big hammer and smash that loading algorithm to pieces.
07:03<fonsinchen>What a mess ...
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>it is... "grown" :p
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07:05<Eddi|zuHause>improved loading was for a long time considered as the "why would you eveer need something else?" until the coop-people "broke" it
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>(by having industries who produce faster than a single train can load it)
07:07<fonsinchen>I guess I'll write a patch that only removes gradual loading and file a bug report for it. Let's see what comes out of that.
07:08<V453000>how can you blame use for having too highly producing industries
07:08<V453000>:D lol
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: you start sounding like andythenorth...
07:12<@peter1138>a lot of newgrf graphics are designed with gradual loading in mind
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07:17<fonsinchen>Of course "removing" means only "removing the setting", while switching it to "on".
07:17<fonsinchen>As I gathered from the previous discussion there is no good reason to have that "off".
07:18<fonsinchen>And anyone switching it off will at least get the potential for cheating as side effect.
07:20<@peter1138>not really, it's game-wide
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>just remove both settings, and tell those pesky coopers to just use non-full-load orders :p
07:21<Ammler>there are already way too few settings, do not remove the last standing ones, just make it nice defaults
07:22<@peter1138>too few settings?
07:22<@peter1138>not heard that complaint before
07:23<Pinkbeast>I do think there's a risk of going down the GNOME3 route
07:23<@peter1138>rm table/settings.ini
07:23<fonsinchen>Well, if we need a setting there, then its behaviour should be well-defined and there should be an explicit reason for having the setting.
07:23<Ammler>I don't get the benefit of removing settings, if you just can set nice defaults
07:23<@peter1138>Ammler, well it makes the code full of special cases
07:24<Pinkbeast>Ammler: Extra work to ensure the non-default settings continue to work.
07:24<fonsinchen>Having settings to have more settings is pointless. It just increases code complexity and makes the code harder to maintain.
07:24<Ammler>maybe if you really need, you could remove those from the gui and make it console settings only
07:24<fonsinchen>Ammler: What exactly does the gradual loading setting do and why do you want the option to switch it off?
07:24<@peter1138>Ammler, you're missing the point :p
07:25<Ammler>fonsinchen: I do not care about developemnt that is your task ;-)
07:25<fonsinchen>That is about behaviour of the game not development.
07:25<Ammler>removing it to make the code "easier" is development, imo
07:25<fonsinchen>I want an answer like "It makes the last wagon in my trains green and I like that"
07:26<fonsinchen>If I get an answer like that, I'll immediately stop with this. Otherwise I'll insist that it's useless.
07:27<Ammler>it's not about my personl opinion, it is about the possibility someone sometime does want it
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: i guess it's one of those "allow legacy behaviour" settings
07:27<@peter1138>search for 'gradual loading' on the forums, quite a lot of people seem to want it turned off
07:28<Ammler>it happens quite often you miss half a year of development and another nice setting is gone or a feature got introduced without setting
07:29<@peter1138>which settings have been removed?
07:29<@peter1138>i'm against adding new settings "just because", but also against removing old settings "just because"
07:29<Ammler>well, worst I have in mind was the flip engine
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that was not removed, it was clarified as newgrf-controlled
07:30<@peter1138>flip engine...
07:30<@peter1138>i don't think that was ever a setting
07:30<Ammler>well, you call it a new feature without setting
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what you mean by that
07:31<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: it changed gameplay and forced newgrf devs to update their grfs
07:31<@peter1138>so you think we should've added a setting to get around a feature to avoid graphics bugs?
07:32<@peter1138>flipping engines changes gameplay in absolutely no way
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: it didn't change gameplay, it changed eyecandy
07:32<Ammler>well, I also play with eye sometimes :-)
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: and it's a trivial change to the newgrfs in question
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>only a very tiny fraction of the users was ever affected by the change
07:34<V453000>YAY flip discussion :D
07:35<V453000>it should have been the other way around that newgrfs would disable it explicitly, but ye
07:35<fonsinchen>people apparently turn off gradual loading to simulate something like "percentage order".
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: anyway, it was a _carefully_ weighed decision that the change was needed to have a more controllable environment, and that a setting for it would be overkill
07:36<Ammler>the feature was good, the missing setting was bad
07:36<fonsinchen>As with gradual loading the vehicle only loads the cargo it finds when it first arrives and does not load more cargo arriving later.
07:37<fonsinchen>Thttp://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=54716&hilit=gradual+loading
07:37<Ammler>the main issue was that it needed changes from newgrf authors
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: like bridges-over-stations will, and like any change/addition to newgrf behaviour will
07:39<V453000>bridges over what? :D
07:40<Ammler>also I don't get why it would have beend so overkill to introduce a setting, since you need to handle option there anyway
07:40<Ammler>-d
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: the only difference between "newgrf controls whether a vehicle can be flipped" and "newgrf controlls whether a bridge can be over a station" would be that one was a half-baked uncontrollable feature before, and the other is new. why would that justify a setting to override the newgrf control in either case?
07:43<Ammler>because you change existing behavior, not fixing a bug
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>mosquito->elephant
07:44<Ammler>well :-)
07:44<Ammler>it is a example
07:45<Ammler>every feature which changes gameplay should have a setting
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>a compromise is where everyone comes out of the discussion with the feeling he's been screwed over :)
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07:46<Ammler>no matter how important it might look right now
07:46<Ammler>not every setting needs gui
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that's only in a perfect world where code complexity of a setting is 0 and maintainability is 100%
07:47<Pinkbeast>Are you proposing to do the additional code maintenance to keep the game working with all possible combinations of settings?
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: since it is not, there sometimes are sacrifices to make
07:48<Ammler>yeah, well there are some examples like flip engines, where a settings is absolutely no more work since it needs to be option anyway
07:49<Ammler>or like the constant MAX_YEAR could be a setting
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>that it could be, but it still needs someone to a) write a patch, and b) review the patch for unwanted side effects
07:51<Ammler>well, "they" also added code so you weren't able to patch it like building rivers in game mode
07:51<Ammler>that was additional code
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes. so?
07:52<Ammler>so it is not always about code maintenance, sometimes also to force players to play like someone else want
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>building rivers ingame was never a feature, what is your point??
07:53<Pinkbeast>Do you mean to say that not everyone working on OTTD has exactly the same objectives? I am shocked to discover that.
07:53<Ammler>the feature was to forbid building ingame
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>no, the feature was "allow building rivers in scenario editor"
07:54<Ammler>yeah, ok :-)
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: the missing feature there is "switch from game-mode to scenarioeditor-mode"
07:57<Ammler>there is additional code which assures that you can't build rivers ingame, it is not just missing code
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>and that is an argument for/against what?
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>features need code.
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>DUH!
07:58<Ammler>you said, the missing settings are because of code maintenance
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>no, i said the missing settings are BALANCING the need for the setting vs. the necessary maintenance
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>with the rivers, the balance was that the need for disallowing was stronger than the increased maintenance effort. with the flipping the balance was the other way around
07:59<Ammler>some settings need no maintenance
07:59<Ammler>like flip trains
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>that, of course is a subjective view, as the measures are not exact science
08:00<Ammler>it is already a option
08:00<Flygon>Flipping trains is like flipping burgers
08:00<Flygon>Hard to master, but mundane to appear
08:00<Ammler>else you cuoldn't set it via newgrfs
08:01<Ammler>it has basically just the wrong default
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: if there ever was a need for that setting, that need has certainly vanished by mow
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>*now
08:01<V453000>lol
08:02<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: you are worst reference for player settings anyway :-)
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: you have that option, you can write a trivial addon newgrf that enables the option for any vehicle
08:03<Ammler>yep, that is the excuse of the devs
08:03<Ammler>why not the other way around, do additional work to disable flip?
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: it needs 3 things: an action 8 for the name/id of the GRF, an action0 feature8: grf-override for every known grf-id and an action 0 feature 0: set the flip bit for every vehicle id
08:04<Ammler>and how much more would have it needed to disable it?
08:05<Ammler>so you broke 90% of the newgrfs because of one old lazy newgrf author, which grf was it again?
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: all GRFs which used vehicles-shorter-than-default
08:06<V453000>DB set?
08:06<V453000>oh :)
08:06<Ammler>lol, seriously, ottd devs did it for dbset? :-D
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH MB!! :p
08:07<Ammler>that is so typical :-P
08:08<V453000>go tell him to put shit on bananas then :D
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: well, there would have been the option to auto-enable the flag for all vehicles of length 8, but that would have meant a serious complication of the grf specs
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: i do that every time...
08:08<Ammler>anyway, the point is that you usually do not know the consecenses when you introduce a feature, so a setting would always be nice, later you can decide if it needs gui
08:09<V453000>I know :)
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: we can't force him
08:09<V453000>yeah :)
08:09<V453000>still
08:09<Ammler>or later you could also change the default
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: we knew the consequences, we specifically voted against it.
08:09<V453000>WAR
08:09<Ammler>but introducing a setting afterwards won't happen
08:10<@peter1138>12:43 < Ammler> because you change existing behavior, not fixing a bug
08:10<@peter1138>actually it was fixing a bug
08:10<Ammler>peter1138: you fixed a bug in a newgrf or in players gamestyle, yes
08:11<Ammler>the "bug" arised only, if a player actuall flipped a engine
08:12<@peter1138>also, not just dbset
08:12<V453000>flipping was quite a secret feature anyway wasnt it
08:12<Ammler>it wasn't debset eitehr
08:12<V453000>was/is
08:12<@peter1138>a stupid feature imho
08:12<Ammler>no grf, just players stupidity
08:15<Eddi|zuHause><Ammler> the "bug" arised only, if a player actuall flipped a engine <-- $bug with $feature only happens when you use $feature?!? now your arguments are getting really silly
08:17<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: you removed/disabled a feature just because a player made something stupid
08:17<Ammler>I do not call that fixing
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08:19<@peter1138>you can call it what you like
08:19<@peter1138>it doesn't matter to us, because we know it's a bug fix
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08:37<Ammler>That just proves my point, ottd devs usually do not care about users, but that is fine. (I guess, it could be s/ottd/opensource community/)
08:38<@peter1138>heh
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: there's always some extremist that doesn't get his point across to the general consensus, that doesn'm mean anything about the "cariness" about "users"
08:38<@peter1138>imho flipping engines was a misfeature that shouldn't've existed
08:38<Flygon>When you're paid, you suddenly care a lot more :p
08:38<Flygon>Also, flipping engines has some use
08:38<@peter1138>if it was something that affected game play, maybe it would've turned out different
08:39<Flygon>eg. real world locomotive sets where locomotives can either be single or push-pull on each end of the train
08:39<Flygon>Dare I get photos?
08:39<@peter1138>now, what does mb want?
08:39<Ammler>yeah, it was just an example, I am sure I was sad about other "new features" as well, it is just a long time already :-)
08:42<@peter1138>hey i'm sad about all the extra hardcoded airports
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>remove them! without option!
08:44<Ammler>you locks patch is really no gameplay, but flipping engine I flip a bit on that view :-P
08:44<@peter1138>Ammler, totally wrong
08:44<@peter1138>flipping engines is eyecandy only, no gameplay
08:45<@peter1138>the locks patch affects ship movement, therefore it clearly affects gameplay
08:45<Ammler>maybe because I used ships tat rarely
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08:48<V453000>the locks are totally fucked up if you ask me
08:48<V453000>looks like a bug
08:48<@planetmaker>but... "it's realistic", V453000 ;-)
08:49<V453000>planetmaker: I know, but it looks horrible :D
08:49<@planetmaker>Not sure it looks horrible. But without locks which close the gates it looks funky
08:49<V453000>like so horrible beyond broke, esp if the water in the locks already is going downhill
08:50<V453000>well luckily I use only 5000 ships per game :)
08:52<@peter1138>there's plenty of issues with it
08:54<@planetmaker>I assume esp. in the PF, peter1138 ?
08:54<V453000>hey, issues are realistic right
08:54<@peter1138>planetmaker, none there
08:55<@peter1138>didn't touch it in fact
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09:00<@peter1138>planetmaker, graphical issues with very long ships
09:00<@peter1138>(as if there weren't any before!)
09:02<V453000>so ... why such a wtf feature? :o
09:04<@peter1138>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=63856
09:04<@peter1138>see
09:04<@peter1138>it's a feature request
09:04<V453000>that doesnt mean it makes sense...
09:05<@peter1138>cool story
09:05<@peter1138>now anyone with some _constructive_ feedback?
09:06<V453000>sure, the original is better
09:06<V453000>constructive?
09:06<@peter1138>no, not really
09:07<V453000>then how is making this clearly worse thing constructive?
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09:11<V453000>oh, I see
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: maybe both the lock glitch and the tunnel glitch could be solved by just making ground sprites have bounding boxes?
09:12<Ammler>according to that video, I like it, but even here there are people not liking it, so again a setting needed?
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>(i'm sure that'd break 10000 other cases)
09:13<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, not really feasible as then everything on screen needs sprite sorting
09:13<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, although that necessary if you introduce cliffs
09:13<@peter1138>Ammler, seems that way
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: or implement statemachines so this lock version could be a newgrf overriding the original lock
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>no setting needed
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>after all, if hardcoded additional airports are bad, how can hardcoded additional locks be good?
09:16<@peter1138>well
09:16<@peter1138>i'd consider implementing newgrf locks
09:16<@peter1138>with statemachines
09:16<@peter1138>animation
09:16<@peter1138>gates
09:16<@peter1138>raising/lowering water
09:16<@peter1138>etc etc
09:17<@peter1138>if it wasn't for ships being allowed to traverse through each other
09:17<@peter1138>hmm, lock-reservation
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>the statemachine could reserve states so that traversing is possible/impossible
09:18<fonsinchen>two-story locks where ships are flipped to the side by 90° so that they pass each other while travelling from top to bottom or vice versa ;)
09:19<@peter1138>errrr
09:20<@peter1138>yeah
09:20<fonsinchen>Or just make it a black box. On each side one ship has to enter. Then a purple bubble emerges and burst in the players face and then the ships emerge, each on the other side.
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like something out of Ijon Tichy :p
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09:31<fonsinchen>We should have more stuff like that in the game. If I wasn't so thoroughly untalented in drawing I'd make some newGRFs.
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09:44<@peter1138>fonsinchen, nah, it's all horrible beyond broke, totally fucked up, doesn't make sense and unconstructive
09:44<V453000>yep
09:44<V453000>:D
09:45<V453000>you forgot realistic
09:46<@peter1138>it's either realistic or unrealistic, either way it's all a wtf feature
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>there's a reason why i always put "realistic" in quotes
09:47<@peter1138>you definitely shouldn't make stuff that users ask for, also you should listen to everything that users have to say
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>i told you a few days ago, Ammler's logic often defies real logic ;)
09:49<@Terkhen>hello
09:50<Ammler>not really related to logic, rather freedom
09:52<jasperthecat1>Lol.
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09:54<Maedhros>well, you've got the freedom to make AmmlerTTD behave any way you want it to :p
09:55<V453000>challenge
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>Maedhros: but that would take actual development instead of complaining about what other people did :p
09:57<jasperthecat1>I know right :P
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09:59*peter1138 ponders making a patch option (sorry "advanced setting") for every single change he makes
09:59<@peter1138>i will add a new category (optional of course) called "Ammler", although that will be optional too
10:00<Celestar>where is the game looking for newgrfs :P
10:00<@peter1138>dozens of places
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10:01<@peter1138>~/.openttd/newgrf ~/.openttd/data ~/.openttd/content_download/newgrf ~/.openttd/content_download/data ./newgrf ./data
10:01<jasperthecat1>Well, I keep getting ads about trucks and stuff. For example: Freight-liner, and Splinter.
10:01<Celestar>ta
10:01<@peter1138>okay maybe half a dozen
10:02<jasperthecat1>Really weird.
10:02<@peter1138>what does tmnt have to do with it?
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10:10<Ammler>Maedhros: yeah, another excuse :-P
10:16<dihedral>AmmlerTTD = Ammler tries to do? :-P
10:16<dihedral>hihi
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=167540 <--- somehow these look very... phallic
10:22<V453000>wa?
10:26<@Terkhen>you have a dirty mind :P
10:26<dihedral>no, you do
10:26<@Terkhen>they didn't seem like that to me until you mentioned it
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10:30<Eddi|zuHause>they didn't appear to me that way 10 years ago either... the internet corrupted my mind!!
10:33<@Terkhen>gah, stupid wine
10:34<@Terkhen>the new version broke civIV for me
10:34<V453000>k luckily I dont see anything weird there :)
10:34<V453000>you shouldnt drink so much Terkhen :P
10:34<V453000>(yes I know what you mean by wine) :)
10:38<@Terkhen>it seems that I was able to fix it
10:38<@Terkhen>V453000: wine is for playing, for drinking I have beer
10:38<V453000>haha
10:40<jasperthecat1>LOL
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10:50<Superuser>that good feel when linuxbros itc
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11:08<@peter1138>hmm, so i've got my tgp mods here
11:08<@peter1138>but i can't remember what i was trying to achieve
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11:13<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: the landscape feature variation functions?
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>(those were actually included ;))
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11:41<@peter1138>i always wonder if it would be useful to have random data per station part
11:43<@peter1138>well not always, only when i'm thinking about this stuff :p
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of "random" and what kind of "data"?
11:46<@peter1138>same as usual
11:46<@peter1138>persistent data that can be randomised by randomactions2
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>http://i6.instantgallery.de/g/gu/guest0001/800/79cad20945896.jpg <-- looks like evil terminator engine is going to rip you to pieces
11:46<@peter1138>i guess mb still doesn't quite understand it
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>using the term "dummy" to mean the opposite of what everyone else wants it to mean certainly doesn't help :p
11:48<@peter1138>dummy as in doesn't do it!
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it doesn't decide graphics chain (main application), it only represents the triggers (side effect)
11:49<@peter1138>dummy cos it doesn't cause randomisation!
11:50<@peter1138>i dunno, you kids these days
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12:10<Maedhros>would anyone have any interest in this? http://blankfile.co.uk/openttd/townlist.png (indicating whether a town is a city in the town list)
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12:12<Eddi|zuHause>Maedhros: the idea was to introduce "town" (house) and "city" (skyscraper) icons similar to train/truck/etc. symbols
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>then they could also be shown on the main view/minimap
12:14<Maedhros>aha, fair enough. i guessed this sort of idea must have come up at some point
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure you'll find several threads in the forum
12:28<@peter1138>mb didn't actually explain what he wanted to happen, of course...
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12:52<@peter1138>if (username = V453000) lockstyle = old;
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13:03<@peter1138>hmm, my station height spec is off-by-one compared to object heights :S
13:03<frosch123>is it?
13:04<frosch123>i thought it's the same
13:05<frosch123>maybe there is a obiwan in ottd
13:06<frosch123>>= instead of >
13:06<@peter1138>stations:
13:06<frosch123>or does ottd consider the height of the bridge itself > 0
13:06<@peter1138>if (GetTileMaxZ(tile) + height > z_start + 1) goto not_valid_below;
13:06<@peter1138>objects:
13:07<@peter1138>if (GetTileMaxZ(tile) + spec->height > z_start) goto not_valid_below;
13:07<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Objects#Building_height_.2816.29 <- yeah, but the specs actually say that?
13:07<frosch123>+do
13:08<frosch123>does an object of height 1 imply that the bridge should be at 2? (like ottd does)
13:08<frosch123>or do the specs rather suggest that the bridge can be at 1?
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: then 0 can't mean "no bridge"
13:10<frosch123>why? a bridge cannot be at the same height as the object
13:10<frosch123>a bridge is above the surface, not on the surface
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>i mean if 1 means 2, then 0 can't mean 1 and never at the same time
13:14<@peter1138>ah, so mb is really just trying to convince me to implement something that is not possible. cool.
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13:15<frosch123>hmm, yeah, objects have a separate flag to allow bridges
13:15<@peter1138>yeah cos they don't have 8 tiles per object
13:17<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=899149#p899149 <- looks like this was the last post on that topic
13:17<frosch123>earlier in that topic rb suggested to use "0" for "no bridge". but that is not what was implemented
13:18<@peter1138>not sure which makes sense, but using the same system would surely be better
13:18<@peter1138>in which case i need to change from 0 to something else
13:18<@peter1138>or add an additional flag
13:18<@peter1138>with 8 flags :p
13:19<@peter1138>or i keep what i've done and have it different
13:19<frosch123>make it uint16 :p
13:19<@peter1138>there should only ever be 8 anyway
13:19<@peter1138>technically you could assuming X & Y variants are the same
13:19<@peter1138>*assume
13:21<frosch123>you can close the 'station triggers do not work' bug btw
13:21<@peter1138>oooh!
13:32<frosch123>does your locks patch support reversing the ship while it is inside the lock?
13:32<frosch123>ttdp completely breaks when doing that iirc
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13:34<@peter1138>didn't try
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>if a vehicle is in a [custom] statemachine and the turnaround button is pressed, and the state does not say what happens on turning around, just reset the state to some entry/exit state?
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13:48<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24907 /trunk/src/lang (6 files in 2 dirs) (2013-01-11 18:48:02 UTC)
13:48<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:48<@DorpsGek>arabic_egypt - 6 changes by zaabi1995
13:48<@DorpsGek>bulgarian - 100 changes by logi
13:48<@DorpsGek>traditional_chinese - 16 changes by Marcadana, elleryq
13:48<@DorpsGek>korean - 23 changes by telk5093
13:48<@DorpsGek>tamil - 12 changes by aswn
13:48<@DorpsGek>turkish - 53 changes by barisdemirdelen
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14:07<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, show me the turnaround button :p
14:10<Maedhros>would skipping to another order do it?
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14:20<Wolf01>evenink o/
14:20<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
14:39<Supercheese>Hmm, are translated/localized versions of readmes that are included in grf bundles possible?
14:40<frosch123>yes
14:40<frosch123>you can localise readme and changelog
14:40<frosch123>you cannot localise license
14:41<Supercheese>Do I rename them to readme_UK.txt, or use a lang ID, or...
14:41<frosch123>http://wiki.openttd.org/Bananas#Files_to_upload
14:42<Supercheese>Aha, under that page
14:42<Supercheese>thanks
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>GRFv9 suggestion: rip out the "cargo" stuff of action3, and put the callbacks in there instead
14:43<@peter1138>ini files
14:43<@peter1138>or
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>then the rerandomisation could simply run through all callback branches
14:44<@peter1138>squirrel :p
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>yes, what happened to the squirrelgrf project? ;p
14:45<Supercheese>hibernating for the winter? :P
14:45<Supercheese>NUTS should be coded in squirrel :D
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: you forgot XML anyway :p
14:45<@peter1138>squirrel in xml!
14:46<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: counter proposal
14:46<frosch123>elminiate random actions
14:46<frosch123>use var 5f
14:46<frosch123>and specify retriggering in some other way
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: specify retriggering using CB1 :p
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>GRFv9-CB1 returns a bitmask of bits to retrigger
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>in its return value or in some register
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>32bit callback results
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>32 random bits are enough for everybody
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15:57<frosch123>some latvian speaker around?
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>svn log | grep latvian <-- list of candidates
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16:01<wojteks86>hi
16:03<jasperthecat1>Just uploaded a map...
16:09<frosch123>so, who can match "pasažieris", "pasažieri", "pasažieru" to 0, 1 and 2?
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16:12<@Alberth>post at the forum?
16:13<frosch123>"pasažieris" is the one in the dictionary
16:13<wojteks86>sound like slavic language
16:13<frosch123>it's latvian
16:13<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/StringCodes#Using_plural_forms <- yay
16:14<frosch123>http://mylanguages.org/latvian_plural.php <- wrong clipboard
16:14<wojteks86>I would go for accordingly 1=2, 2=1, 3=0
16:14<wojteks86>but make sure on the forums ;)
16:16<frosch123>hmm, that page is quite useless
16:17<frosch123>but yeah, most likely is = 1, i=2, u=0
16:18<wojteks86>better to ask someone from Latvia :D
16:20<wojteks86>actually, after looking at the example from your link, it appears they are in the correct order already
16:20<wojteks86>I mean, where you first posted them
16:21<frosch123>wiki also has a lot latvian declensions
16:21<frosch123>but non mentioned a special plural form for 0, 21, 31 etc.
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16:22<wojteks86>unfortunately, I cant really help with Latvian
16:22<@Alberth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_declension#Numerals ?
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16:43<jasperthecat1>I just updated my map, check it out. http://binaries.openttd.org/bananas/scenario/Road_Vehicle_Map-1.1.tar.gz
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16:57<@Terkhen>good night
17:05-!-Jasperthecat1 [63304048@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
17:15<Jasperthecat1>Wow, it'
17:15<Jasperthecat1>It's silent.
17:16<wojteks86>silent night, holy night
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17:24<Jasperthecat1>Lol.
17:28<@planetmaker>good night
17:28<wojteks86>good night
17:28<@peter1138>'night
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17:31<Jasperthecat1>I think this is the last update for today on my scenario called 'Road Vehicle Map'.
17:38<Wolf01>'night all
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18:07<@peter1138>hmm, canstations includes waypoints... as stations :S
18:11<Jasperthecat1>If anyone wants to come and play in my server, it's called 'Road Vehicle server :P'
18:11<@peter1138>yeah yeah, you have a thing about road vehicles
18:12<Jasperthecat1>Yes, i know.
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19:13<Supercheese>Hmm, do the forums still have that pesky 3-attachment-per-post limit?
19:14<Supercheese>Yes, apparently. :(
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>just attach it to other posts and link it in the first post
19:22<Supercheese>Yes, either that or make a new thread
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20:43<drac_boy>hi
20:44*drac_boy runs Flygon over with a NGG16
20:44<drac_boy>heh heh
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21:04*Flygon prods drac_boy
21:05<Supercheese>So I've had Eyecandy Road Vehicles translated to UK Enlgish, I was wondering if Australian English would have any major differences
21:05<drac_boy>how're you flygon? :)
21:06<Flygon>Decent ennough
21:06<Flygon>Wanted to bring up something, but forgot what
21:06<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=167557 (relevant text)
21:06<Flygon>Supercheese: It really, really, depends
21:06<drac_boy>Supercheese you'll have to check for 'local' slangs but otherwise I doubt there is much different
21:06<Flygon>Okay, yeah
21:06<Flygon>There's differences
21:06<Supercheese>Police cars
21:06<Supercheese>Fire Engines
21:06<Supercheese>and the like
21:07<drac_boy>just like how in usa a police car on side of road set up for speed traps are often called Smokey Bear by truckers
21:07<Supercheese>If you'd like to transalte to AU English, I'd be most grateful
21:07<Supercheese>translate*
21:07<Flygon>Translating now
21:07<Supercheese>Here's the US English http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=167571
21:08<Supercheese>awesome, thanks
21:08<Flygon>"Breakdown Recovery Lorry"
21:08<Flygon>See
21:08<Flygon>This is why Australians hybridized English with American :P
21:09<Flygon>Took me a few seconds to figure out "Dustbin Lorry" :P
21:10<Flygon>Urg... "Mail Van"
21:11<Flygon>I should note, this actually changes depending on your region of Australia. But most people do use the word "Mail Truck"
21:12<Supercheese>It was actually decided later that "Breakdown Truck" was more UK English than "Breakdown Recovery Lorry"
21:12<Flygon>In fact... when translated to AU, it's just US language @_@
21:12<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=56780&start=40#p1061190
21:12<Supercheese>Strange, I though commonwealth nations would prefer the term "post" over "mail"
21:12<Supercheese>Guess not
21:12<Supercheese>RMS, Royal Mail Service
21:13<Flygon>https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/english_AU.lng
21:13<Supercheese>Basically US English but with color-->colour
21:13<Flygon>Supercheese: The Australian state of Victoria became HUGELY infatuated with the USA between the 1910s to 1930s
21:13<Flygon>This created some VERY odd anomolies in Australian English
21:14<Flygon>To the point where several words have multiple legal spellings
21:14<Flygon>eg. Labor and Labour are both 100% valid
21:14<Flygon>Anyway, there's your .lng file :p
21:14<Flygon>Also, on a broader context
21:15<Flygon>We do have more to do with UK english ;3
21:15<Flygon>For example, faucet isn't a legal word in Australian
21:15<Supercheese>Y'know, "Fire Engine" is seeming better and better to me, even for US English
21:15<Supercheese>think I'll change that across the board
21:15<Flygon>Fire Truck and Fire Engine are interchangable here
21:15<Supercheese>same here
21:16<Supercheese>but Fire Engine sounds more... official
21:16<Flygon>Yeah
21:16<Supercheese>Engine #2 dispatched... etc.
21:16<Supercheese>Here's a fun question, are the emergency sirens down under more like UK sirens or US sirens? From what I recall there's quite a difference between them
21:17<Flygon>Not sure
21:17<Flygon>YouTube should be helpful
21:17<Supercheese>Well, the ones in the .grf are definitely more US
21:17<Supercheese>it's difficult to describe sounds in words :P
21:17<Flygon>...default search term I use
21:17<Flygon>"australian fire truck siren"
21:17<drac_boy>flygon you want to know what a 'truck with bowling deck' is? :)
21:18<Flygon>Well, given it's unconsiously 'truck', should I translate from Engine? :P
21:18<Flygon>drac_boy: The 1970s
21:18<Flygon>...Supercheese: It might be possible different states use different sirens
21:18<drac_boy>flygon to someone from uk its actually a lorry with a rather long stalkless flatbed trailer with no step-up over the 5th wheel shoe :)
21:18<drac_boy>hence the reference to bowling
21:18<Flygon>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqtsc9wJIgM Standard for my regiion
21:18<drac_boy>flat and thin :)
21:19<Flygon>drac_boy: ...huh
21:19<Flygon>Seems convoluted
21:19<drac_boy>flygon yeah its an old slang
21:19<Supercheese>That sounds more US
21:19<Flygon>Mm
21:19<Flygon>Also, our road signs are US based
21:19<drac_boy>flygon there is also "hi-cube" for both trucks and trains .. basically its a box but with high ceiling height :)
21:19<Flygon>Our roads are neither European nor American, though... closer to European, however
21:20<Flygon>Definitely NOT British
21:20<Supercheese>Maybe London has changed their sirens since the 90s
21:20<Flygon>dracco, you got me thinking of borg
21:20<drac_boy>its easy to spot a hi-cube ... their roofs stick up so much higher up
21:20<Supercheese>they're all sounding the same now
21:21<Supercheese>Aha
21:21<Supercheese>This is more of the UK-siren I was thinking of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwX6SNFlmqk
21:21<Supercheese>Alternating high and low pitches, rather than a sweep
21:21<drac_boy>heres one example flygon...
21:21<drac_boy>http://thundertrain.org/012311USicg68003Hicube-36R.jpg notice how the two roofs are noticeably higher than that one yellow wagon which is of the standard height clearance instead
21:21<Flygon>Ah, hi-lo
21:21<Flygon>I recall some happening here
21:22<drac_boy>and yes they were sometimes longer chassis too
21:22<Flygon>MAY or may not have been an older truck
21:22<Flygon>Or an SES van, or Police Car....
21:22<Flygon>Then again, their sirens are programmable
21:23<Flygon>drac_boy: I see
21:23<Flygon>sorry, a bit distracted
21:23<Flygon>I gotta brb 10 mins
21:23<Supercheese>I've never heard a high-lo siren here in the States, so it was odd going to Britain and hearing it :P
21:23<Flygon>Snagging lunch
21:34*drac_boy pokes flygon that its 11 minutes
21:35*Supercheese has been staring at computer screens for too long
21:35<Flygon>Back
21:36<drac_boy>heh heh
21:36*drac_boy turns supercheese's screen all bright white
21:36<drac_boy>that should make you stop staring at it :P
21:37<Flygon>That wasn't you that made it all white, drac_boy
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21:42*Flygon shakes drac_boy
21:43<Flygon>Stupid question
21:43*drac_boy whacks flygon?
21:43<drac_boy>:)
21:43<Flygon>Thoughts of a push-pull service that uses an electric loco on one end, and high-power Diesel loco on the other?
21:44<Flygon>For long distance trains that also require 160-200km/h speeds?
21:44<drac_boy>no cab car in service?
21:44<Flygon>Unions here would rather lose their jobs than drive a cab car
21:44<Flygon>Due to level crossing issues
21:45<drac_boy>I'll call them nuts unless there clearly was another electric locomotive thats sitting in the repair shed unuseable at the moment
21:45<Flygon>Though, this does ignore that D/EMUs are very popular lowadays
21:45<Flygon>Then again, motorized carriages probably have more protection than unmotorized...
21:47<Flygon>But, more to the point, drac_boy... given that, plausibly, they could be operated in MU operation for much faster acceleration, and be clean running cruising @ electric, and run on non-electric lines... there's gotta be SOME logic :P
21:47<drac_boy>actually I would say no :P
21:48<drac_boy>the electric locomotive is a big risk being hauled dead behind light wagons rather than being placed behind the pilot locomotive
21:48<Flygon>The intention was passenger use
21:48<Flygon>Where switch around times with shunting can be a pain in the timetable
21:50<Flygon>Although, personally
21:51<Flygon>I think it's just smarter to use EMU's with a powercar somewhere in the consist for off-wire running
21:51<Flygon>Heck, it's been done here :p
21:51<Flygon>Except with batteries
21:54<Flygon>I wonder if 145km/h battery running with Siemens Nexas trains is possible...
22:00<Supercheese>Hmm, need to restrict this object to only being built on the sea, not on rivers...
22:00<Supercheese>nearby_tile_water_class
22:01<Supercheese>excellent
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22:06<drac_boy>going so bye Supercheese and Flygon :)
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22:09<Supercheese>Huh, the Av8 set already has support for Seaplanes and Runway Lengths required for aircraft... despite OTTD having support for neither
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23:05<Flygon>OpenTTD needs a hurryon
23:05<Flygon>:p
23:05<Supercheese>a which?
23:06<Flygon>Ah, must be a coliqual term
23:06<Flygon>See, Aussie English IS different :P
23:06<Supercheese>heh
23:06<Flygon>It should hurry up and implement those features asap, is what "OpenTTD needs a hurryon" in length :p
23:37<Supercheese>I am not understanding how multitile objects work :S
23:40<Supercheese>What kind of sprite layouts need I return from the graphics callback?
23:47<Supercheese>I need some example code from a set with multitile objects...
23:51<Supercheese>Wow, VAST Objects code is intense
23:52<Supercheese>I totally cannot follow it @_@
23:52<Supercheese>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/vast-objects/repository/entry/nml/components/Plazas.nml
23:53<Supercheese>I think it uses preprocessor directives too, which helps not :S
---Logclosed Sat Jan 12 00:00:57 2013