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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-01-19

---Logopened Sat Jan 19 00:00:08 2013
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03:37<Supercheese>Ok, just installed MinGW, modified my system Path variable; what's the syntax to preprocess a .pnml file?
03:38<@planetmaker>depends. Usually all projects which I'm involved, you just call make to do all things for you
03:38<@planetmaker>then you don't need to remember any syntax. Nor which files
03:39<@planetmaker>mingw should also come with a flavour of make. So just try 'make' in the main checkout dir of a project you might have gotten
03:39<Supercheese>Was trying things with one of my own project to start
03:40<Supercheese>I'll check out an existing makefile
03:41<@planetmaker>I've created to allow using adopting it for new projects
03:42<@planetmaker>that is a dummy newgrf itself and easily adopted (all you usually should need to adopt is directly in the Makefile)
03:42<Supercheese>Yeah, first repo I browsed to uses that template f
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03:48<@planetmaker>otherwise... gcc -C -E - < file.pnml > file.nml
03:52<Supercheese>Huh, weird syntax
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03:53<@planetmaker>hi Alberth
03:53<@Alberth>moin planetmaker :)
03:57*Alberth is pondering to start a newgrf translation webservice project
03:57<@Alberth>nice scrabble word :p
03:58<@planetmaker>do cookies help in the decision? :D
03:59<@Alberth>I was going to try doing it without cookies :)
03:59<@Alberth>do you know any existing attempts?
04:00<@planetmaker>not of a web service kind. You know all wrt translations which I do.
04:01<@planetmaker>but I wonder whether that'll not need some more string abstraction on the newgrf side
04:01<@Alberth>what's "string abstraction" ?
04:01<@planetmaker>similar to the container format which now splits data; so that strings are split from data
04:01<@planetmaker>though... maybe the action4 can just be placed trailing to the grf
04:02<@planetmaker>but they then shouldn't change the NewGRF grfID
04:02<@planetmaker>though... that's separate.
04:02<@planetmaker>bah. /me is now confused
04:02<@Alberth>please translate to english?
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04:03<@Alberth>hi user54367644
04:03<@Alberth>what is the problem with strings in newgrfs?
04:03<@planetmaker>Alberth, I think the biggest decision which needs be made is / are
04:03<@planetmaker>- how do you obtain the (English) strings?
04:04<@planetmaker>- how do you provide the translated strings?
04:04<@planetmaker>- how are the translated strings supplied to the authors or users
04:04<@planetmaker>and... I'm not clear on any of these three fundamental questions
04:05<Supercheese>Now, to separate and #include, I should have done this before my .nml file reached 1040 lines...
04:05<@Alberth>only 1040 lines? I have seen Java code of 3000 lines :)
04:05<@planetmaker>1000 lines is still managable. FIRS has 25k+ lines ;-)
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04:06<Supercheese>Surely FIRS is separated and #included, no?
04:06<@planetmaker>yes... it's even meta-programmed
04:06<Supercheese>.py -> .nml -> .grf or so, eh
04:08<Supercheese>Yo dawg, I heard you like abstraction, so we put abstraction in your abstraction...
04:08<Supercheese>or abstracted your abstraction, I guess :)
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04:10<@Alberth>I see two kinds of users for such a service; at the newgrf-side, you have complete files that you can exchange; at the translator side you have sets of strings
04:11<@Alberth>the only thing specific to newgrf, is the syntax of the files (meta-data mostly) and the strings, so you can verify correctness
04:13<@Alberth>that's easy to abstract away in a separate module, so you can also handle other syntax, eg AIs or GSes
04:13<@planetmaker>lol... if I concatenate all Makefile parts... it ends up already at 456 lines :D
04:14<@Alberth>perhaps throw away all comments? :D
04:14<@planetmaker>352 then ;-)
04:15<@Alberth>hmm, I think you have too many variables in your Makefile then :p
04:15<@planetmaker>re translations: so you get the translation files delivered from the authors?
04:15<@planetmaker>or via an URL or alike?
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04:16<@Alberth>definitely an URL, you can build a form-like web-page, or have a upload/download page
04:16<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
04:17<@Alberth>you just need to define the syntax of such a file
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04:28<@planetmaker>Alberth, so... if I provide an URL it will automatically retrieve it regularily (and discard translations of strings not present there anymore)?
04:30<@Alberth>At the moment, I assume you bring updates to the application, and pull updates when you see fit
04:30<@Alberth>but of course these things are easy to arrange in anyway you like
04:30<Supercheese>So, grf authors upload their english.lngs in need of translating, translators see the strings needed, they submit and then... I guess other.lngs are returned to the grf authors somehow?
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04:32<@Alberth>grf authors also upload translations
04:32<@Alberth>from the project
04:33<Supercheese>should stuff other than english exist, yeah
04:33<@Alberth>and download all those files again
04:34<@Alberth>a translation with 0 translated strings is also a translation, just a very empty one ;)
04:35<Supercheese>Heh, well it sure sounds like a great idea :D
04:37<@Alberth>the general idea is easy, the problems come when you try to realize it ;)
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04:42<@Terkhen>good morning
04:42<@planetmaker>hi Terkhen
04:45<V453000>I did some more fiddling and discovered more of my issues, //BORK does not randomize with the power, BUT the 2 visual random_switches do ... which leads me to believe that it is something related to randomizing train stats and making them dependent ... which I do not see why is not working, but is there any way to overcome this?
04:45<V453000>also hi :)
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04:56<@planetmaker>Supercheese, can you remind me: what for is TILE_CLASS_VOID needed?
04:56<@planetmaker>could it be instead like INVALID_TILE?
04:56<Supercheese>the name of the named constant can be whatever, it just seems TILE_CLASS_VOID is consistent with the other tile classes
04:57<@planetmaker>yes... I guess there won't be other invalid tiles
04:58<Supercheese> seems to cover all other values except 0x07
04:59<@planetmaker>yes. pull NML tip :D
04:59<Supercheese>changing code now...
05:00<Supercheese>Oh hmm, now that I have MinGW, I wonder if that Notepad++ syntax-highlighter-autogen script will work...
05:08<Supercheese>Yep :D
05:09<@planetmaker>:-) that's nice
05:10<Supercheese>It's a very neat feature, whoever first came up with syntax highlighting for programming languages was a genius
05:11<@peter1138>newgrf.cpp is 9179 lines
05:11<@peter1138>this is scary
05:11<@peter1138>newgrf* is 25k lines
05:11<Supercheese>The files from are a little out of date though, perhaps they could do with some updating
05:12<Supercheese>or, well, a new addition rather
05:12<@planetmaker>yes... *someone*, you know. Someone who uses notepad++ even
05:13<V453000>you have a NML syntax highlighter for np++?
05:13<@planetmaker>look at the link. Obviously :D
05:13<Supercheese>See that link there
05:13*planetmaker didn't know anymore either
05:14<Supercheese>Hmm, I suppose fancy-colored highlighting wasn't invented at least until color computer displays were :P
05:14<@planetmaker>Supercheese, I'd not count on that... you can do stuff with the font type (italic, bold...)
05:15<@planetmaker>heffer, thanks for the pillow patch. Applied now to NML trunk. Will also be in next release
05:15<heffer>planetmaker: great news! thank you for applying
05:16<Supercheese>Pillow... you guys are making me sleepy :O
05:17*Alberth makes a nice hot tea with honey for Supercheese
05:17<heffer>gotta love pillow :D
05:17<@Alberth>I already liked PIL, Pillow is even better?
05:18<Supercheese>Hmm, I wonder if "zzzzzzz" is a universally-accepted colloquial-text-ism for sleeping
05:18<Supercheese>text-colloquialism... texloquialism?
05:18<Supercheese>I guess you could speak it, although it'd be a tad difficult
05:19<V453000>nice :)) thanks
05:19<heffer>Alberth: well it's 1. maintained and 2. heading for python 3 compatibility
05:20<@Alberth>that's 2 points ahead already :)
05:21<heffer>the version that will be in the Fedora 19 branch shortly does have python 3 compatibility already
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05:41<@Alberth>nice, still running F17 here :)
05:46<Supercheese>Good night; valete & estote laeti!
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05:54<@peter1138>pom te pom
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05:55<@peter1138>still working on rgb recolours
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06:14<@peter1138>shame about egrvts2
06:16<@peter1138>egrvts2 provides its own copies of the cc recolouring maps
06:17<@peter1138>which overrides my ... beautiful non-hacky code
06:26<@peter1138>andythedoom, did you see last night?
06:28<andythedoom>sliders :)
06:28<andythedoom>now just make it apply to individual vehicles ;)
06:28<andythedoom>then all the livery freaks will wet themselves :)
06:28<andythedoom>wee everywhere
06:28<andythedoom>just like my house
06:29<@peter1138>eh, it applies to liveries already
06:29<andythedoom>I mean on a per-vehicle basis
06:29<andythedoom>clickety on the vehicle
06:29<@peter1138>i keep considering group colours
06:29<@peter1138>but not per-vehicle
06:29<andythedoom>oh the livery freaks will be sad
06:30<andythedoom>how else will they construct a prototypical representation of the UK?
06:30<@peter1138>phasing out mercury!
06:30<@peter1138>what about venus?
06:30<andythedoom>how mercurial
06:31<andythedoom>who's got my P60?
06:31<andythedoom>is it you?
06:31<@peter1138>yes i stole it
06:31<andythedoom>I need it for tax return purposes
06:33<@peter1138>but the dog ate it
06:33<@peter1138>along with my homework :S
06:34<@peter1138>lol what
06:34<@peter1138>youtube has video effects and shit these days :S
06:34<V453000>:D custom colours, awesome
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06:43<andythedoom> ho ho
06:43<andythedoom>this is an excellent troll of the v2.0 thread :)
06:44<andythedoom>"better ratio between tiles/km" is a genius lol-wut
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06:48<V453000>it is getting awesome
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06:52<andythedoom>see, the moon landings WERE faked
06:57<TrueBrain>fonsinchen: you do know that the last compile of Cargodist failed because you didn't rebase to a compilable version of trunk, right? :)
06:58<TrueBrain>the CF did nothing wrong, for a change :P
07:01<andythedoom>it's TrueBrain!
07:01<TrueBrain>no! IT IS NOT TRUE!
07:04*fonsinchen tries to "make bundle" with that version now.
07:04<andythedoom>now what eh?
07:04*andythedoom is bored
07:04<TrueBrain>poor andy :)
07:04<andythedoom>have a cake?
07:04<andythedoom>write some code?
07:04<andythedoom>skin Alberth's translator thingy?
07:04<TrueBrain>cake? Why cake?!
07:04<andythedoom>there is cake here
07:04<andythedoom>I could eat it
07:04<TrueBrain>which translator thingy? :)
07:04<andythedoom>a newgrf thingumy
07:05<fonsinchen>in fact ...
07:05<TrueBrain>awh, I was hoping he made WT4 :(
07:05<andythedoom>Alberth: where is your thingummy?
07:07<fonsinchen>Sorry TrueBrain, when it said "cp: target `/bamboo/bundle/game/' is not a directory" I was just automatically assuming it had some problem with disk space again.
07:07<fonsinchen>Turns out I was wrong.
07:07<TrueBrain>I know ;)
07:07<TrueBrain>I know, because a nightly had the same issue P
07:07<TrueBrain>I assumed someone had told you
07:08<V453000>excellent my check came from NASA :DDDD
07:08<V453000>that guy is great
07:09<fonsinchen>Well, the previous version is pretty stable and not much has been happening in trunk in the mean time. I'll concentrate on getting the reservation thing right before rebasing again.
07:10<@Alberth>TrueBrain: who knows what it might become :)
07:11<TrueBrain>DOUH ITUHHHHHH :P
07:13<@Alberth>are there other differences than the number of languages and strings, and the syntax of the files?
07:16<@peter1138>woo, rgb remaps survive saveload
07:16<TrueBrain>Alberth: depends .. do you support {P}, {G} and all that other shit?
07:17<TrueBrain>do you validate parameter count and positioning?
07:17<TrueBrain>(no clue what NewGRF supports :P)
07:17<TrueBrain>and the main difference I guess would be that it has to read SVN diffs, and be able to make SVN commits ;)
07:17<@Alberth>eventually, yes, I do have plans to check sanity of strings in that area too
07:18<TrueBrain>you do know where the source of WT3 is, right? Just so you can get an idea of how I solved those issues ... in 1 word: very ugly :P
07:18<@Alberth>for now, I assume I get complete files
07:19<@Alberth>and I have a separate part dealing with syntax issues and checking strings stuff
07:20<@Alberth>but for now, I assume just plain text as strings :)
07:23<@peter1138>i guess i need to free a memblock
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07:23<@peter1138>otherwise this is going to fill up the sprite cache with remaps :p
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07:28<@peter1138>obnoxious colour scheme! :D
07:29<@Alberth>somewhat orange/yellow-ish :)
07:30<V453000>is that in trunk now?
07:31<@peter1138>it's just a local save for the game we played
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07:31<@peter1138>but look at egrvts2 being awkward on the right :p
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07:35<Rubidium>peter1138: looks like that company was called Easy with its subsidiaries EasyBoat, EasyTrain, EasyBus, EasyTruck, EasyChopper and EasyJet ;)
07:37<@peter1138>heh yeah
07:37<@peter1138>i guess some of av8 uses custom remaps
08:02<andythedoom>peter1138: nothing wrong with those colours
08:03<andythedoom>whatever happened to a fixed palette though :(
08:03<andythedoom>life only has 256 colours, who could ever need more?
08:04<andythedoom>pay-to-play servers
08:05<@Terkhen>I hope we don't sink to that :P
08:07<andythedoom>definitely wouldn't cause politics :P
08:26<@peter1138>andythedoom, what about a fixed palette?
08:27-!-andythedoom is now known as andythenorth
08:27<andythenorth>peter1138: Simon Foster chose colours in 1994, why aren't they good enough forever more?
08:27<andythenorth>except orange
08:27<andythenorth>which smells
08:28<@peter1138>i thought people wanted more colours :S
08:28<andythenorth>don't trust people
08:28*andythenorth is being silly
08:28<andythenorth>more colours are good
08:29<drac_boy>theres one problem as I've often noticed tho...
08:29<drac_boy>too-similar colours ... kinda silly when a station look like its player #4's when its actually #6's
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08:35<andythenorth>peter1138: this remap is player-owned stuff only? Or industries as well?
08:36<@peter1138>player only atm
08:36<@peter1138>although ...
08:36<@peter1138>if you can provide a custom colour map in newgrf, then that should work
08:37<@peter1138>i extended the colour map "format"
08:38<andythenorth>I don't actually want to change them :)
08:38<andythenorth>but I had to prevent some company colours being used in FIRS
08:38<andythenorth>for reasons of good taste
08:38<andythenorth>wondered if it screws with that - doesn't, don't care :)
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08:39<@peter1138>only thing with providing custom remaps is you lose the any-colour ability
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09:11<Pokka>av8 references the default 2cc maps, peter
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>"Canada put a norwegian maple leaf on their new banknotes"
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09:17<@peter1138>Pokka, hmm, how is that even done?
09:18<@peter1138>ah the base is returned as a variable. cunning.
09:18<Pokka>thanks to matchpan iirc
09:19<@peter1138>you refernece them directly so they're used
09:20<@peter1138>which is fine, just incompatible. hmm.
09:20<Pokka>oops :)
09:21<@peter1138>well you can do things like swap colour1 & colour2
09:21<@peter1138>gives you the same scheme but reversed
09:21<@peter1138>but that's not going to work with this
09:21<Pokka>which is what I use it for
09:22<Pokka>av8 aircraft refit into normal, reverse, alt and "blank" (either white or grey) colour schemes
09:26<@peter1138>yeah, only normal (and letting ottd add the offset) will work
09:41<@peter1138>yeah no way around that
09:41<@peter1138>rm -rf :S
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09:56<Eddi|zuHause>file not found: :S
09:59<@peter1138>hurr hurr
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10:59<V453000>500 Internal Server Error upon updating NUTS :d
11:08<@peter1138>dbg: [sprite] LoadNewGRF: Currently 71602 sprites are loaded
11:08<@peter1138>so much for 16384 sprites :p
11:08<@peter1138>and that's without multiple vehicle-of-the-same-class sets
11:09<@peter1138>yay, spritecache memory leak fixed
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>16k sprites are enough for anybody
11:17<@peter1138>i wasted at least 200KB on remaps!
11:17<@peter1138>which is not unlikely as RGBA remaps are 1281 bytes
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11:22<V453000>is something wrong on my end or is that bananas issue? :d
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>it very well could be an aftershock of the recent server downtime
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>in that case, you should talk to TrueBrain or Rubidium
11:27<V453000>that is what I thought
11:27<V453000>I guess you just highlighted them so I will see if I can catch them later :) thanks
11:29<TrueBrain>Eddi: the services are online; I guess it is really an internal server error, as in: something is wrong with the upload
11:30<TrueBrain>V453000: you can try musa; it might give you more clues about what goes wrong
11:30<V453000>what does musa mean?
11:30<TrueBrain>its a command line utility to upload stuff to BaNaNaS
11:30<frosch123>monkey upload service ape
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11:31<frosch123>TrueBrain: that's not what he asked :p
11:31<V453000>what : D
11:31<V453000>im on windows mind you
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11:36<pokkka>ho ho
11:36<pokkka>the v2.0 thread continues to attract very witty trolls
11:37<frosch123>start a thread about firs 2
11:37<pokkka>good point
11:37<pokkka>am I going to get moderatised for trolling?
11:38<frosch123>maybe heqs heqs will feature witches riding vehicles
11:38<Pokka>witches' riding vehicles?
11:38<frosch123>"heqs heqs" sounds like something witches would say
11:39<@peter1138>hoqvs hoqvs?
11:39<Pokka>him too
11:39<pokkka>that's just vapourware
11:39<pokkka>it will never ship
11:39<Pokka>I should do hoqvs as boxes
11:39<Pokka>like fish and tai
11:39<Pokka>release first, draw later
11:40<@peter1138>like cets
11:40<pokkka>is there a var that lets my newgrf know if date cheat was used?
11:40<pokkka>I want to make troll.grf
11:41<pokkka>no vehicles available until 20k years after game start
11:41<pokkka>no cheating allowed
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11:45<frosch123>you can change your nick, but you cannot change your colour
11:46<GladysPronck>well said, Fred Gibson
11:46<frosch123>i only know fred colon
11:46<V453000>hmmm TrueBrain will I be able to do that? :D
11:47<GladysPronck>do you only know fred colon?
11:47<TrueBrain>I see no reason why not; but someoe should explain it to you I guess how it works :P
11:47<GladysPronck>what about fred mercury, from the planet of the same name?
11:47<TrueBrain>no clue where it ended, the project; I know musad (the services itself) is up and running ...
11:48<TrueBrain>anyway, 90% of the time you get a 500 error, it is because you packed your tar wrong for one reason or the other
11:48-!-peter1139 is now known as frosch456
11:48<TrueBrain>the other 10% means a system error :P
11:48-!-GladysPronck is now known as Pongo
11:49<V453000>I think I packed the zip exactly the same way as I always do, but lets try again
11:49<@peter1138>hmm, i wonder if egrvts2 is broken, or grfcodec
11:50-!-LordAro [] has joined #openttd
11:50<frosch456>trying to decompile it?
11:51<Pongo>or all three
11:51<frosch123>frosch456: everything you say highlights me :s
11:51<frosch456>and me
11:51<TrueBrain>I get this strange urge to start kicking people for all the names they take on
11:51<frosch456>it's all andythenorth's fault
11:51-!-frosch456 is now known as gues
11:52-!-gues is now known as andythenorth
11:52<TrueBrain>isn't it always?
11:52<andythenorth>what do we want in FIRS 2?
11:52<andythenorth>a port?
11:53<frosch123>yeah, port it to gameboy generation 1
11:53<andythenorth>certainly hadn't considered that
11:53<Pongo>andy, I thought last night
11:53<andythenorth>not a bad idea
11:53<Pongo>ice industries for a 19th century D;
11:53<andythenorth>priority cargo?
11:53<andythenorth>I had a thought
11:53<Pongo>deliver to meat packing plants
11:53<andythenorth>trying to make one grf that covers 200 years of gameplay is a bum-ache
11:54<Pongo>is it?
11:54-!-Pensacola [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>make 2 grfs that each cover 100 years
11:54<@peter1138>difficult to split it out for industries
11:54-!-Pensacola [] has joined #openttd
11:55<andythenorth>the blocker is usually industry closure
11:55<andythenorth>it's unpleasant :P
11:55<andythenorth>which leaves a 'realism' problem :P
11:55<Pongo>industry closure is fun
11:56-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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12:00<Eddi|zuHause>it's easy: players have the choice, either "uniform" industry set without closure, or "timeline based" industry set with closure
12:01<andythenorth>I think FIRS is the uniform set
12:01<andythenorth>Pongo can make the other one
12:01<V453000>TrueBrain: I am pretty confident I did everything exactly the same way as before, but somehow it worked now
12:01<V453000>thank you anyway, sorry for the panic :)
12:01<V453000>im good at making panic :)
12:01-!-pugi [] has joined #openttd
12:01<TrueBrain>panic? Didnt pick up on that :)
12:01<frosch123>V453000: he had enough time to plug out the coffee machine
12:01<TrueBrain>but glad you could upload it now :)
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: don't worry, computers are well known for doing different things every time you enter the same input
12:02<TrueBrain>deterministic is not for computers
12:02<V453000>I know Eddi I lost my faith in the hideous computers long time ago :P
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12:05<@peter1138>SpComb's run out of coal :S
12:09<SpComb>it's not sustainable
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>switch to green energy!
12:10<@peter1138>silly steel mills want coal
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>that's all Pongo's fault
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12:17<andythenorth>I am the passenger
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12:28<@peter1138>nah nah nah nah nahnahnah naaaaah
12:30<andythenorth>everybody's talking at me. Can't hear a word they're saying
12:32<frosch123>andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy!
12:34<Pongo>where's the new game then, peter?
12:35<@peter1138>what do you want?
12:35<@peter1138>same ?
12:35<Pongo>unless anyone has better ideas
12:35<Pongo>make sure inflation is off at the beginning this time :D
12:35<@peter1138>object tiles?
12:35<Pongo>perhaps we should firs
12:35<@peter1138>firs no tai?
12:36<@peter1138>tai houses?
12:36<@peter1138>does that work? heh
12:36<Pongo>should do
12:36<Pongo>only if you want to
12:39<andythenorth>do a small FIRS?
12:39<@peter1138>firs 0.8.4?
12:39<andythenorth>not a big one
12:40<andythenorth>don't do the arctic economy, it needs improverising :P
12:41<@peter1138>hovs uk bus set :D
12:44<@peter1138>hm, you can't independently allow ships/trains to make 90 deg turns
12:46<andythenorth>then andythenorth whines that ships are broken :P
12:46<@peter1138>similar industries per town?
12:46<andythenorth>the prevent 90' ships thing should be binned
12:46<@peter1138>disasters on :p
12:47<V453000>it is worthless for trains just as well, andy
12:47<V453000>90deg should always be off
12:47<andythenorth>V453000: nah, for trains it's valid I reckon
12:48<andythenorth>for hysterical raisins
12:48<V453000>apart from the fact that it looks awful, also functionally it makes dead ends a lot harder to create, which can be very vital
12:48<V453000>okay :d
12:48<andythenorth>although Real Men Make Choices
12:48<andythenorth>Parameters Are For Sissies
12:49<FLHerne>andythenorth: Nah. Parameterise everything, so your users can make choices :D
12:49<andythenorth>yeah right
12:49<andythenorth>because users know best :P
12:49<Pongo>just make every property of every vehicle a parameter
12:50<Pongo>set design made easy :D
12:50<FLHerne>They think they do ;-)
12:50<andythenorth>Pongo: did you miss my proposal to extend the spec?
12:50<andythenorth>every sprite becomes a parameter
12:50<andythenorth>player can enter arbitrary nfo to replace it
12:50<FLHerne>Parameterise everything, and then make choices about the sane defaults :D
12:51<andythenorth>Pongo: this way a player can have exactly what they want BUT they never have to code a grf
12:51<andythenorth>so it's ideal for People Who Can't Code
12:51<Pongo>a brilliant wheeze
12:51<andythenorth>FLHerne: what's 16^2
12:54<FLHerne>Or so my calculator widget tells me :D
12:54*FLHerne is suffering from lack of geek-fu
12:55<andythenorth>ok, so let's say you have 16 parameters
12:55<andythenorth>how many combinations do you have to test before releasing a grf?
12:55<andythenorth>16? 16! ? 16^2 ?
12:56<FLHerne>Only 65k :D
12:56<andythenorth>depends if the parameters are orthogonal or not
12:56<andythenorth>if you can guarantee they're orthogonal, life got easier
12:57*andythenorth -> bathtime
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13:05<@peter1138>new game
13:06<@peter1138>andy always runs away
13:06<@peter1138>bathtime, what is he, 6?
13:06<FLHerne>peter1138: His kids are (ish), aren't they?
13:06*FLHerne probably missed some form of joke :P
13:07<@peter1138>who's coming on?
13:15<@peter1138>guess i'll have to... play with... myself
13:17<FLHerne>peter1138: I might. What trains/style?
13:17<@peter1138>as usual
13:17<FLHerne>Ah. No idea what 'usual' is :P
13:18<FLHerne>GS/competitive? Realisticish?
13:18<FLHerne>Just whatever?
13:18<@peter1138>it's a game :p
13:18<@peter1138>no gs
13:19<FLHerne>Sounds interesting :-)
13:19<@peter1138>you need newstats.grf
13:19<@peter1138>all the rest is on banananananananas
13:19<FLHerne>Current version, presumaby?
13:20<@peter1138>think so
13:21<FLHerne>What OTTD?
13:23<Pongo>shamefur dispray
13:25<TinoDidriksen>TGS Podcast
13:25<frosch123>on saturday?
13:26<TinoDidriksen>Was in reference to Pongo's line.
13:29<FLHerne>Got it, finally
13:29*FLHerne got lost in and then forgot how to use tar :P
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24922 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-01-19 18:45:35 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
13:45<@DorpsGek>hebrew - 14 changes by taleinat
13:45<@DorpsGek>serbian - 5 changes by SweetAbsinthe
13:45<@DorpsGek>swedish - 2 changes by spacejens
13:45<@DorpsGek>ukrainian - 48 changes by Norby89
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13:49<Pongo>ho ho firs cheaty station ratings
13:49<Pongo>too many passengers for peter1138
13:50-!-oskari892 [] has joined #openttd
13:50-!-oskari89 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:51<@peter1138>it's 1882
13:51<@peter1138>platforms shouldn't be chockablock
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14:10-!-skassem [] has joined #openttd
14:11<skassem>HELLO GUY
14:11-!-skassem [] has quit []
14:13<frosch123>are you sure you were that single guy he meant?
14:17-!-oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
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14:25<Eddi|zuHause>who else could he have meant?
14:26<frosch123>someone slighty deaf maybe
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>i'm clearly the most awesomest person in here
14:27<frosch123>ah, so you claim to be a person
14:27<frosch123>usually only non-persons emphasize it like that
14:28<@DorpsGek>i want to become a real boy
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14:41<Pongo>I'm winning!
14:42<Pongo>how does an iron works make metal out of wood?
14:43<andythenorth>charcoal innit
14:43<andythenorth>from the forest
14:43<andythenorth>or as we say round here the Forest
14:43<andythenorth>where special folk live
14:44<andythenorth>'Who killed the bears?'
14:44<andythenorth>I think it's a silly industry myself
14:55<Pongo>where's this FLHerne then
14:57<FLHerne>Pongo: Took a while to find the right OTTD version, then got distracted and didn't get around to joining ;-)
14:59<frosch123>FLHerne: just use latest version
14:59<FLHerne>frosch123: I found it now :P
14:59<FLHerne>In fact, some time ago
14:59<frosch123>yeah, latest from some time ago was the greatest
15:00*FLHerne is now trying to install the wrong version of webkit :P
15:22<@peter1138>timetable ui is way too fiddly :(
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15:27<apiecux>I've created a scenario, and when I try to play with it, a crappy newgrf is selected, and I can deselect it
15:28<apiecux>I don't find any way to edit the scenario to remove this newgrf from it
15:28<apiecux>how can I do?
15:28-!-pjpe [] has joined #openttd
15:28<FLHerne>apiecux: What grf
15:29-!-Devroush [] has quit []
15:29<FLHerne>apiecux: Removing NewGRFs from savegames can cause permanent damage to that savegame, or cause unpredictable crashes at any point in the future :-(
15:30<FLHerne>(scenarios are a special form ov savegame)
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15:30<FLHerne>It's possible to remove grf, but not supported, and the advisability of doing so depends massively on what the grf s
15:30<apiecux>the grf introduces new trains, so I don't think it will break anything if I remove it from a scenario without anything else than cities
15:31<FLHerne>apiecux: I think removing vehicle grfs is usually safe if none of those vehicles exist
15:32<FLHerne>You might want to see if someone else has an opinion on it though ;-)
15:32<apiecux>I'v found a way in the forum, by enabling scenario_develope
15:33<apiecux>(and I've made a save of the scenario file before :) )
15:33-!-pjpe [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
15:34<FLHerne>apiecux: Well, give it a try then - but if your game crashes halfway through, don't pester the devs :P
15:34-!-pjpe [] has joined #openttd
15:34<apiecux>it worked, thanks :)
15:34<FLHerne>I think plans exist for a better scenario format at some point, which might help :-)
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>it used to be that removing a vehicle grf removed all trains, even the original ones
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15:34<apiecux>and it was clear that my scenario didn't depend on the newgrf
15:36<apiecux>Eddi|zuHause: ok you are true, there is no any vehicles when I launch a game with that scenario :.)
15:38<@peter1138>it used to be that removing a vehicle grf didn't remove all trains
15:38<@peter1138>and then crashed :p
15:38<FLHerne>Perhaps try adding another train grf?
15:38<FLHerne>OpenGFX+ should do if you like the original vehicles
15:39<@peter1138>resetengines doesn't do the trick?
15:40<frosch123>if you use the beta, it should reenable the vehicles when starting a scenario
15:40<frosch123>in older versions you can try "resetenginepool"
15:40<frosch123>it works as long as there are no vehicles :)
15:40<apiecux>ok I try it :)
15:42<Stimrol>Is it possible to ban ip range in the game, like 70.100.*.*
15:43<apiecux>it worked, thx :)
15:43<Sacro>Stimrol: why not use a firewall?
15:44<frosch123>yes, it is possible
15:44<Stimrol>because I always have to call my IPS to make any changes to my router
15:45<@peter1138>Stimrol, CIDR notation is supported
15:46-!-oskari892 [] has joined #openttd
15:48<Stimrol>so I could do like this banip to ban what next 1024 ip (according to wiki)
15:48<@peter1138>yeah i think so
15:48<@peter1138>been a while :p
15:48<@peter1138>it's changed a bit since i wrote it
15:49<@peter1138>and as usual i didn't document it properly
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15:50<Stimrol>It is anoying to have server, when all this funny griefers coma along and switch ips like there is no tomorrow
15:51*andythenorth knows about them
15:51<andythenorth>there is a bad one called pikka
15:53<frosch123>yeah, and he hides behind varying vocals
15:53<@peter1138>could be worse
15:53<@peter1138>like voxels
15:53<@peter1138>or whatever they were
15:54<frosch123>yeah, or he could figure out that there are more vocals to choose from when including other languages
15:54<frosch123>like äöü :p
15:54<frosch123>oh, it's vowels apparently
15:54<Stimrol>would be nice like to add to autopilot that same ip could mostly fund two companies and you have to use !resetme, then also force Player to change name to something else than player :)
15:55<Stimrol>funny people :)
15:57<andythenorth>peter1138: gone away?
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't "w" a vowel in some language? :p
15:57<@peter1138>but nobody listens to the welsh
15:58<@peter1138>cos you can't understand them
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't even know how to pronounce that
15:58<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: are w and l vowels in german? :p
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes u is not a vowel in english
16:01-!-Pongo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:02<Stimrol>maybe capital U then :)
16:03<@peter1138>which cases?
16:04<Stimrol>this kind of YOU :D
16:05<Stimrol>bad joke :)
16:06<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: <- does not look like a w
16:08<@peter1138>w has the sound of OO as in boot and shoot, or of U as in pull. Note, however, that W can also be used as a consonant with the English W sound.
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16:11<@peter1138>The landscape is always 2 squares smaller than the dimensions specified in the new game settings (for example, 64x64 is always 62x62).
16:11<@peter1138>is it always 2 now?
16:11<@peter1138>used to be 1
16:11<Rubidium>peter1138: disable freeform map edges
16:11<frosch123> <- i wrote that "fix"
16:12<Rubidium>(in the advanced settings)
16:12<frosch123>but i am not sure whether it should be fixed :p
16:12<frosch123>selecting a 126x254 map size looks weird at most
16:13<@peter1138>"why can't i have 128x256 any more?"
16:14<Sacro>complain to the pope
16:15<@peter1138>frosch123, make it a patch option :p
16:15<frosch123>haha :)
16:16<@peter1138>call it realistic map size just to confuse everyone
16:16<frosch123>i could also append a "-ish" to all numbers
16:16<frosch123>128-ish x 256-ish
16:16<frosch123>unit system: imperial, metric, si, realistic ?
16:18<__ln__>did you just say the r word
16:20<frosch123>we said it twice, that makes it void
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16:47<andythenorth>custom bridgeheads
16:47<andythenorth>might be useful
16:47<andythenorth>that or diagonal bridges
16:48<andythenorth>but diagonal bridges smell of wee
16:48<Supercheese>Digaonal everything
16:48<Supercheese>Just rotate your monitor 45°
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16:50<Supercheese>How would diagonal tunnels/bridges even work
16:50<Supercheese>Start on two half-tiles? 0_o
16:50<Maedhros>diagonal level crossings!
16:50<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause did that
16:50<Supercheese>"there's a patch for that"
16:50<Supercheese>even diagonal stations
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>well, i butchered Maedhros' old patch
16:51<Maedhros>heh, well you kept finding problems with my version
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i actually solved the most pressing one
16:52<Maedhros>did you? cool
16:52-!-LordAro [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:52<Maedhros>what happened to it all, then?
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>i made this patch that closes adjacent level crossings simultaneously
16:53-!-Alberth [] has left #openttd []
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>which is more flexible than the hacked two-tile-closing in the old diagonal crossing patch
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>and then on top of that i tried to update the diagonal crossing patch, reshuffling some bits on the map array:
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>all that's missing now is the drawing part
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>which i couldn't figure out since too much changed with railtypes and all
17:00<Maedhros>Eddi|zuHause: nicely done! can't say i understand any of it any more though ;)
17:05<Wolf01>I should update the sloped stations patch, but I forgot how to write code
17:05<Rubidium>so did I ;)
17:06<@peter1138>i should update the curvy stations patch
17:06<@peter1138>but i forgot how to finish anything
17:07<Supercheese>Errr, does the OBJ_FLAG_NOT_ON_LAND flag not work in the Scenario editor?
17:07<Supercheese>or hmm, did I screw something up badly
17:07<Supercheese>Yeah, haha, bad copypaste strikes yet again
17:08<Wolf01>the hilarious thing is that I work as a software developer, but 2 weeks ago when I updated the local copy of OpenTTD and I gave a look to the code, the first thing which I sais was "WTF it's written here?"
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17:10<Eddi|zuHause>i never finished anything in my life
17:11<andythenorth>I finished the first episode of Doom
17:11<andythenorth>not much else
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17:15<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: keep on going; if you stick to it you might manage immortality
17:16<Supercheese>Must refrain... form trolling the version 2.0 thread
17:16<frosch123>isn't that its only purpose?
17:17<Supercheese>Good point
17:19<@Terkhen>both trolling and making suggestions that would require a rewrite of OpenTTD
17:19<@Terkhen>although the frontier between those two is not very clear
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17:30<andythenorth>peter1138: no more game?
17:31*andythenorth could use bed tbh
17:31<@peter1138>stopping for now
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17:33<andythenorth>had a pm asking me to help with this thread
17:33<andythenorth>title was 're: FIRS etc'
17:33*andythenorth is a bit wtf :P
17:39<andythenorth>Johnnie says FIRS is too big
17:39<andythenorth>he's right
17:39<andythenorth>but Zebedee says time for bed
17:39*andythenorth is going to go and listen to people driving badly on snow
17:39*andythenorth lives on a hill
17:39<andythenorth>on a blind corner
17:39<oskari89>andythenorth: Played with FIRS, it's quite nice actually
17:40<oskari89>Not too big
17:40<andythenorth>I should rm it
17:40<andythenorth>or just never release
17:41<@peter1138>how do planes
17:41<@peter1138>land on dredging sites?
17:42<oskari89>Eddi|zuhause: ^ there was talk of diagonal level crossings and stuff, I think that overlays could be rather easily implemented
17:42<andythenorth>peter1138: that is a nice question
17:42<oskari89>I do not know exactly, but i think so
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>oskari89: well, the code is there, the sprites are there:
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>knock yourself out
17:43<@peter1138>update the railtype specs
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>that too
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>especially in a backwards-compatible way
17:44<@peter1138>level crossing sprites, 10 pieces, hmm
17:45<@peter1138>disallow diagonal crossings if the sprites are missing :p
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: nah, just use the fallback sprites should be fine
17:45<@peter1138>what's 24 to 31?
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>toyland monorail
17:46<__ln__>when's DB going to start ICE traffic to london?
17:46<@peter1138>they should start ICE traffic on my local line
17:47<@peter1138>cos that's DB-owner
17:47<@peter1138>it's not electrified mind you
17:47<__ln__>not all ICEs need electrification
17:47<oskari89>peter1138: Yes, disallowing diagonal crossings if the sprites are missing, OR use those ones as default instead of missing ones
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>there are diesel ICEs :p
17:47<@peter1138>actually they own the TOC, probably not the actual line
17:48<Maedhros>i don't think sending diesels through the tunnel would go so well...
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes, those
17:48<frosch123>Maedhros: london has experience with underground steam trains
17:48<frosch123>so, diesel can't be that bad :p
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>they have trucks and cars in >8km long tunnels, why should trains be a problem?
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's just they're too cheap to upgrade the ventilation
17:50<@peter1138>the diesels were for my line, not the tunnel :p
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: not every german branch line has an ICE either :p
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>(although some politicians rather liked that)
17:52<@peter1138>i suppose 75mph DMUs are okay
17:53<@peter1138>just not as cool
17:53<andythenorth>and so to bed
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17:53<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: also, the train that "ran away" in sweden with the cleaning lady on board was owned by DB
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>allegedly it was parked without the brakes on so they wouldn't freeze
18:01<@peter1138>hmm, i guess multistop docks breaks oilrigs
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18:11<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: how so?
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>just have 4 "bays" at the sides of the oilrig station, and consider the ones blocked by non-water-tiles to be occupied
18:13<@peter1138>eh, no i mean my code breaks it, not a conceptual problem
18:14<@peter1138>i probably not ought to abuse roadstops for it either
18:14<@peter1138>it's just complicating things :p
18:14<@peter1138>seemed a reasonable idea originally
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>well, ideally all *stops should be the same conceptually
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>platforms, road bays, ship bays, airport bays
18:19<@peter1138>feel free to code that
18:19<@peter1138>it's just a little with docks cos the stop->xy isn't the place where ships stop
18:20<@peter1138>looking at my code i don't see why it's not working :p
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>i know that problem :p
18:21<@peter1138>+ if (IsTileType(tile, MP_WATER)) {
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>i have some code that, if you hit "print" once, it prints once, and if you hit "print" a second time, it prints four times
18:21<@peter1138>that'll be it
18:22<@peter1138>if the dock is surrounded by industry tiles
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18:24<@peter1138>although looking at the code that change shouldn't be there
18:25<@peter1138>bet it no longer works at all now :p
18:25<Pokka>stop that
18:25<@peter1138>i was right
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause>what's an octomom?
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like a bond villain
18:31<Supercheese>Perhaps it was truncated, Octomom-something... Octomoment? Octomomentum?
18:31<Supercheese>Octomoment of momentum?
18:38<@peter1138>it works
18:38<@peter1138>but not for oil rigs :p
18:39<@peter1138>i changed the ship_station area from dock tile to docking location
18:39<@peter1138>means the stupid iteration in the pathfinder can go
18:39<Pokka>duh @ the "severe performance problem" thread
18:40<Pokka>can someone explain to me why people play 2048* maps
18:40<Pokka>with high towns and high industries
18:41<Supercheese>8.4 MB .sav
18:41<Pokka>after 240 years of playing the map he's only ever interacted with about 5% of the towns on the map. He could have played a 256*256 map and saved on processing all that map he's never going to use :)
18:41<Pokka>the map
18:44<Supercheese>I suggested he use a smaller map
18:45<Supercheese>I can't remember ever playing a game larger than 512x512
18:45<@peter1138>hmm, no, doesn't work. damn.
18:51*Maedhros would sometimes like 384^2 maps
18:51<Maedhros>512^2 seems far too big, but sometimes i want more space than 256^2
18:51<@peter1138>blank half the map :)
18:52<@peter1138>well obviously not half
18:53<Supercheese>512x256 and 256x512 maps are nice
18:53<Maedhros>yeah, it's a first-world problem, really :p
18:54<Supercheese>or make a 512x512 with lots of water around the edges, effectively reducing the size
18:55<__ln__>meanwhile in bulgaria:
18:55<@peter1138>i hear simutrans allows it
18:55<@planetmaker>well. I played larger maps than 512^2. But... 1024^2 is not really playable till the end for many
18:55<Supercheese>Did... did that assassin forget to chamber a round?
18:55<Supercheese>What a colossal moron -_-
18:58<Supercheese>Well, he thankfully failed
18:58<@peter1138>they're going into him somewhat
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18:58<Supercheese>He rather deserves it
19:00<Supercheese>Hmm, didn't they have armed guards?
19:01<@peter1138>will probably have security stepped up a bit now
19:02<Supercheese>"gas pistol"?
19:04<FLHerne>Pokka: Multiplayer, with big computers and long games :P
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19:11<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: a "gas pistol" is usually a device that propells its projectiles by gas pressure instead of a small explosion
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>i played a game on 2048x1024 with very few towns once
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>on daylength 4 or 8
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>i managed a line all the way through
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>but probably around half the map i still never touched
19:18<@peter1138>how do water industries even work?
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19:23<Supercheese>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, I looked it up:
19:24<Supercheese>it seems it does use powder explosives from that description, though, as opposed to a compressed air pistol
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19:36<@Terkhen>good night
19:36<@planetmaker>good night here, too
19:37<Supercheese>Valete, dormituri
19:48<Wolf01>night all
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20:04<@peter1138>oh, maybe this is it
20:04<@peter1138>in which case... grrr
20:04<@peter1138>yes, fixed it.grrr.
20:13<Supercheese>Fixed is good, no?
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20:31<@peter1138>yes but i wasted time :p
20:33<@peter1138>also it's nasty :(
20:33<@peter1138>yeah, docks are
20:34<Supercheese>Pathfinding weirdness, yeah
20:34<@peter1138>for all other types, vehicles stop directly on a station tile
20:34<@peter1138>for ships, they stop on a water tile near the station
20:35<@peter1138>therefore instead of just checking that the current tile is a station tile it needs to check if the tiles adjacent to the current tile are station tiles
20:36<@peter1138>except then there's always 8 to check
20:36<@peter1138>so instead it goes through the list of docks for the target station and checks if the tile is the docking tile for that dock
20:37<@peter1138>that list will usually be 1 item, so in theory it's only checking 1 instead of 8 tiles
20:38<@peter1138>it needs to do that for every tile the pathfinder follows :S
20:39<@peter1138>possibly way to simplify it is to add a 3rd invisible dock tile at the docking point that allows ships on it
20:41<@peter1138>oh and every step the ship takes it has to check too :S
20:42<Supercheese>Ship pathfinding has always seemed ridiculous...
20:42<Supercheese>When you force them into areas with little room to maneuver, they tend to trigger the "ship is lost" message
20:43<Supercheese>but then they magically fix themselves and are not lost
20:43<@peter1138>well give them room then :p
20:43<Supercheese>and ships always no-clip through everything
20:44<Supercheese>other ship in the way? just clip right through...
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20:59<drac_boy>how doing supercheese? and still got any seagulls? :)
21:00<Supercheese>Yep, my object set now has seagulls, ice / ice floes, a shipwreck, and lots of rocks
21:00<Supercheese>next I'm working in frozen rivers/riverbanks
21:02<drac_boy>mm.... ice? 0_o
21:02<drac_boy>hope thats only on arctic maps :P
21:02<Supercheese>They're just objects, you can place them or not place them :)
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21:03<Supercheese>If/when I get a GameScript able to place objects, though, then yeah, Ice will probably only be for arctic
21:03<drac_boy>well ice != hot weather = tropical
21:04<drac_boy>heh heh
21:04<drac_boy>that aside, how're you Supercheese?
21:04<Supercheese>Hungry, at the moment
21:06<Supercheese>"Food transported this hour: 0. User needs food to grow." :P
21:06<Supercheese>well, growth may not be as desirable in my case ;)
21:07<Supercheese>horizontal rather than vertical :S
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---Logclosed Sun Jan 20 00:00:09 2013